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DarkArtist
08-24-2005, 10:53 AM
I was just watching TPM last night and this thought occured to me, and yes this has most likely been discussed in earlier threads/ posts but if you think about it, Vader is the result of Qui Gon Jinn and not Obi Wan Kenobi.

Think about it, Qui Gon insisted that the boy be trained that he is the chosen one, even after the rest of the council sided against Anakin's training. Because of this the fate of the galaxy was sealed and Palpatine's plan came into being. If Qui Gon had ignored the boy and never bought his freedom from Watto, Anakin would still be a slave and Vader would never be.

As far as Obi Wan fault's (as he states in ROTJ, "I thought I could instruct just as well as Yoda, I was wrong.") Obi Wan was only granting a dying Qui Gon's last wish that he train Anakin. And since Obi Wan became stubborn at the end of TPM (" Master Yoda, I gave Qui Gon my word, I will Anakin, without the council's approval if I must.") the fault later would fall upon Obi Wan feeling guilt that he as well do not listen to the council.

"Clouded this boy's future is" a message from Yoda that should have been taken more seriously perhaps. Could it have been that Yoda might have been the only member of the council that could see through the Dark Lord's plot?

JimJamBonds
08-24-2005, 11:01 AM
Ehhhhhhhh I'm not willing to go so far as to say that its all Qui Gon's fault. Yes he started things so a healthy chunk of the blame should be directed his way but I don't think he should get all of it. Obers should get some of the blame as well since he was training the boy, heck the council should get some of it as well for giving a newly minted Jedi knight a Padawan. Lets not forget about there was Palpers keeping on the down low trying to screw with things that didn't help.

Rocketboy
08-24-2005, 11:11 AM
Whatever happened to being held accountable for one's own decisions?
It was Anakin that made the decision to turn to the dark side.

Rogue II
08-24-2005, 11:37 AM
I'll agree with you Rocketboy. He had the choice of following the advice of the Jedi Council and Obi Wan or listening to Palpatine. Saying it was all Qui Gon's fault is kind of like saying that Christopher Columbus was responsible for all of the European influence in western hemisphere since 1492.

decadentdave
08-24-2005, 12:07 PM
It's Qui-Gon's fault. If he hadn't picked up that little brat from Tatooine, none of this would have happened. Anakin would have remained a slave and Boonta Eve podracer champion and would never have joined the Jedi Order. As an adult, he likely would have become a mercenary or bounty hunter... a profession befitting his bad-natured character. And you wonder why Obi-Wan NEVER mentions him on the OT. Oh well, some things are just destined to happen I guess.

JimJamBonds
08-24-2005, 12:10 PM
I'll agree with you Rocketboy. He had the choice of following the advice of the Jedi Council and Obi Wan or listening to Palpatine. Saying it was all Qui Gon's fault is kind of like saying that Christopher Columbus was responsible for all of the European influence in western hemisphere since 1492.

Ohh I forgot all about Anners himself should take a chunk of the blame himself. Good one there Rogue Decue. :thumbsup:

2-1B
08-24-2005, 01:30 PM
Meh, I blame Shmi Skywalker. She let her boy be taken away by a strange man whom she hardly knew, for all she knew he could have been a molestor. Oh wait, we have that in our world too, it's called single mothers shacking up with deadbeat pieces of trash. lol lol lol

JimJamBonds
08-24-2005, 01:37 PM
Meh, I blame Shmi Skywalker. She let her boy be taken away by a strange man whom she hardly knew, for all she knew he could have been a molestor. Oh wait, we have that in our world too, it's called single mothers shacking up with deadbeat pieces of trash. lol lol lol

So what are you saying Caesar you don't belive in the "virgin birth" that is presented in TPM? :p

El Chuxter
08-24-2005, 03:02 PM
I blame Jira. Anakin knew he didn't have enough power to stop her bones from aching, so he was vulnerable to the Dark Side.

decadentdave
08-24-2005, 03:04 PM
It may be his fault, but I wouldn't exactly call Qui-Gon a Deadbeat. I know Shmi was jiggy for him.

wedge1968
08-24-2005, 04:20 PM
Qui Gon is a brilliant introduction from a writing standpoint. Lucas was faced with having his protagonist suffer from the burden of failing to train Anakin as well as Yoda; its not a good point from which to develop a hero. By bringing in Qui Gon and the whole death-promise thing, he absolves Obi-Wan of a lot for the blame and gives it to Qui Gon so that the story's protagonist doesn't have to be written in a more negative light.

Great call, Mr. Lucas!

Slicker
08-24-2005, 05:07 PM
It's all Qui Gon's fault. He says he'll train the boy then he just up and gets himself killed. Hell of a Jedi. Obers was just thrown into the mix to train him when he wasn't ready.

Kidhuman
08-24-2005, 06:29 PM
Bottom line, Anakin chose his destiny. He could have let Mace hack Plaps to pieces. Anakin is to blame, not anyone else.

Rocketboy
08-24-2005, 07:57 PM
It's Qui-Gon's fault?
By that reasoning we could go back and say it was Watto's fault betting Anakin.
Or Sebulba's fault for losing the podrace.
Or Gardulla the Hutt's fault for losing Anakin and Shmi to Watto.
Or Shmi's parents for getting bizz-ay.
Or...

Blue2th
08-24-2005, 08:26 PM
It's not Qui Gon's or Anakin's or Obi-Wan's or anybodys fault. It was pre-destined to happen by the Force. The Dark side and the Light side. All the characters in the drama are just pawns of the Force's will. That's not to say that each of them did not have a choice, but the Force already knows what choice they will make. Hence it all plays out as the Prophecy says.

X13VADER
08-25-2005, 09:18 AM
I Always Thought It Was R2-d2's Fault. If He Did Not Save The Ship Then Ani Would Never Been Disovered. Obi,qui Gon And Padme Would Have Been Killed. End-o-story.

Jayspawn
08-25-2005, 10:03 AM
Yeah! Well its Padmes fault for being born and becoming Queen of Naboo! If she hadnt done that, then the Jedi never would have needeed to rescure her and find Anakin!!! So there!

Seriously, I'd say its mostly Anakin's fault. He made the decision -twisted as it was. But it wouldnt have hurt the Jedi Council any to send Anakin somewhere in the Outer Rim to wait away from Palpatine when they didnt trust the two anyway.

DarkArtist
08-25-2005, 10:24 AM
True that Anakin is to blame as much as Qui Gon, and Obi Wan. Anakin choses the Dark Side for the love of Padme, and the fact the Palpatine lies to him about being able to save her life, yet I still think that Qui Gon does take the brunt of the blame due to the chip on his shoulder, If he had jsut listened to the council Anakin would have never had been trained and the events of Galactic History would have been altered for ever.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Anakin fell to the Dark Side, I not sure how cool it would have been for Count Dooku to be the Darth Vader character of the OT. Plus it would have been funny to see two Dark Lords using walkers or canes :p :p :p

JimJamBonds
08-25-2005, 10:37 AM
True that Anakin is to blame as much as Qui Gon, and Obi Wan. Anakin choses the Dark Side for the love of Padme, and the fact the Palpatine lies to him about being able to save her life, yet I still think that Qui Gon does take the brunt of the blame due to the chip on his shoulder, If he had jsut listened to the council Anakin would have never had been trained and the events of Galactic History would have been altered for ever.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Anakin fell to the Dark Side, I not sure how cool it would have been for Count Dooku to be the Darth Vader character of the OT. Plus it would have been funny to see two Dark Lords using walkers or canes :p :p :p

I think Anakin would have been 'recruited' to be a Sith reguardless, his training would have begun as an 8 yr old vs. the way it came to be.

rbaumhauer
08-25-2005, 03:10 PM
It's George's fault for writing such a cr@p trilogy :)

Sorry, couldn't resist.........

Devo
08-25-2005, 06:10 PM
My vote goes to Yoda and the jedi council. They didn't want him to be trained to begin with - fine. But when Obi-wan, a mere jedi knight, insists that he will train Anakin regardless they should have stepped in and assigned Anakin to a full jedi master. They're all idiots.

JetsAndHeels
08-25-2005, 09:50 PM
It's Barry Sanders' fault. He was one hell of a running back who retired waaaayy too early from the Detroit Lions.

JediTricks
08-25-2005, 10:36 PM
In my opinion, Qui-Gon was too caught up in the prophecy to listen to what the council said about Anakin, if Qui-Gon had heeded their words, Anakin could have gone home free and stayed with his mom and enjoyed a relatively normal life.

I too thought about pinning it on the Council, but ultimately it is Qui-Gon's arrogance that starts the ball rolling.

InsaneJediGirl
08-25-2005, 11:18 PM
I agree with JT. Qui-Gons arrogance is clearly shown,especially to Obi-Wan.When he had a commitment to one Padawan,Qui tosses Obi-Wan out like trash just to get a chance at the Prophecy.

Although,could Anakin have been normal?Tatooine is a seedy place,if he developed Jedi skills on his own,couldnt that have led to more trouble?With all the Dark Jedi lurking about,it would have been perfect for them to strike sooner and make Anakin more powerful in the ways of the Darkside then he already was.

JediTricks
08-26-2005, 09:18 PM
Qui-Gons arrogance is clearly shown,especially to Obi-Wan.When he had a commitment to one Padawan,Qui tosses Obi-Wan out like trash just to get a chance at the Prophecy. Very interesting, I had never really thought of it that way, but the suggestion is there I suppose even when the council makes Obi-Wan a knight at the end of the film. I have always felt that Qui-Gon's devotion to the prophecy was a character flaw in him, I even used it as the basis of a few of my wild theories about him (such as Qui-Gon being Ani's dad and trying to self-fulfil the prophecy), so your point about Qui-Gon casting off Obi-Wan adds well to that theory of character flaw.


Although,could Anakin have been normal?Tatooine is a seedy place,if he developed Jedi skills on his own,couldnt that have led to more trouble?With all the Dark Jedi lurking about,it would have been perfect for them to strike sooner and make Anakin more powerful in the ways of the Darkside then he already was.I don't know, I think if Anakin had been sent back to his mother, he might have not turned bad, might not have even been able to become a Jedi-level Force user (there are only Jedi and Sith in the movies after all, no Asajj Ventress types). Perhaps Anakin could have continued to be nurtured by his mother, win enough races to free her, and develop into a more responsible person.

InsaneJediGirl
08-28-2005, 11:08 PM
Very interesting, I had never really thought of it that way, but the suggestion is there I suppose even when the council makes Obi-Wan a knight at the end of the film. I have always felt that Qui-Gon's devotion to the prophecy was a character flaw in him, I even used it as the basis of a few of my wild theories about him (such as Qui-Gon being Ani's dad and trying to self-fulfil the prophecy), so your point about Qui-Gon casting off Obi-Wan adds well to that theory of character flaw.

Certainly a character flaw. To quote Yoda "Reckless is he" . Especially if we were to draw some examples from the Expanded Universe.



I don't know, I think if Anakin had been sent back to his mother, he might have not turned bad, might not have even been able to become a Jedi-level Force user (there are only Jedi and Sith in the movies after all, no Asajj Ventress types). Perhaps Anakin could have continued to be nurtured by his mother, win enough races to free her, and develop into a more responsible person.

Now that you add Shmi back into the mix,I'm sure Anakin would have been much more controlled.Although if this was to be said,if Shmi ws still alive at the end of Episode II,would Anakin be "less dark" and have helped keep him in the light despite Padmes death?

2-1B
08-28-2005, 11:11 PM
Good question IJG, Shmi's death was a great weapon for Palps to use against Ani . . . fear of a repeat loss.

JimJamBonds
08-29-2005, 12:26 AM
Palps definitly used death as a weapon to lure Anakin no doubt. Just another way to muck with Ani's brain.:yes:

One thing that I thought of last night while watching ROTS (sorry it slipped my mind on the ride home Caesar) happened when Obi-Wan asks Anakin to report to the council what Palps does. Anakin says it goes against the Jedi code and against a friend and a mentor. My thought was how/why did the Jedi ever let Palps ever get that close to Anakin? That close AND without Jedi 'supervision?????' (insert Michael Jackson joke here :p ) Heck Palps even refers to his "earilest training", that wasn't Jedi training that was Palps doin' his thing. Perhaps thats standard? Perhaps they let it happen due to the connection they had and due to the increasing role Palps was playing? I'm not sure but couldn't that have gone a LONG ways to preventing what came to be?

Lord Malakite
08-29-2005, 10:56 AM
Eh, its all Yoda's fault if you really want to think about it in this manner. :twisted: If Yoda had never trained Dooku two things would of never happened. First, Dooku would not of been a Jedi capable of training Qui-Gon, thus Qui-Gon would not of been a Jedi capable of training Obi-Wan or finding Anakin, and as such Obi-Wan would not of been a Jedi capable of training Anakin (who probably in turn would have gone undiscovered). Second, Dooku would of not have the Jedi know how to be turned into a capable Sith (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) in such a short time upon Darth Maul's death and fit into Sidious's time frame plan for starting the Clone Wars. Then you have the final straw that broke the camel, after all this happens Yoda fails to assassinate Sidious when he had the chance (and unlike Mace he didn't have an excuse for it). :thumbsup:

If anyone deserves credit for being at fault though its Palpatine/Sidious. Always in motion like a puzzle cube his mind works. He would of just figured out some other way to power with the pieces available to him if any of those events hadn't presented themselves.

Rocketboy
08-29-2005, 11:47 AM
I still say it 100% Anakin's fault.

JimJamBonds
08-29-2005, 12:16 PM
Eh, its all Yoda's fault if you really want to think about it in this manner. :twisted: If Yoda had never trained Dooku two things would of never happened. First, Dooku would not of been a Jedi capable of training Qui-Gon, thus...

What about the Jedi that found Yoda? And the Jedi that trained Yoda? If he were never 'found' then he wouldn't have become a Jedi, wouldn't have trained Yoda who wouldn't have trained Dooku and so on and so forth. Yoda would have become a Sith nearly 900 yrs ago. :rolleyes:

decadentdave
08-29-2005, 12:31 PM
Actually, it is all really Mace Windu's fault. Case-in-point, Mace was an arse to Anakin ever since they first met. When Qui-Gon asked the council if he could train the boy, Mace humiliated Anakin in front of the council saying, "he will not be trained." That really had to tick little Ani off. Mace's arrogant attitude toward Anakin really helped to nurture his resentment of the Jedi and you can totally see this from Anakin's point of view in Revenge of the Sith. Mace, Yoda and the council give him a raw deal. When Mace says "You're on this council but we do not grant you the rank of Master," you can see how it infuriates Anakin and then he goes off and complains to Obi-Wan that "it's never been done in the history of the Jedi, it's insulting." Mace humiliates him again when he puts him in his place and says "Take a seat, young Skywalker." Then after Anakin tells Mace that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, Mace still does not put his trust in Anakin and tells him to wait behind. You can totally see how easy it was for Anakin to to turn against Mace and cut off his arm and it was only befitting, especially after the way Mace was such a jerk to him.

JimJamBonds
08-29-2005, 12:50 PM
You can totally see how easy it was for Anakin to to turn against Mace and cut off his arm and it was only befitting, especially after the way Mace was such a jerk to him.

Plenty of people have been jerks to me in my life and I don't do around blasting people. Heck I've been a jerk to plenty of people in my day as well and they haven't lopped off any of my limbs (yet). How about Anakin being in a state of mind to be able to take some crap in his life w/out taking out a village of Tusken Raiders or cutting off Dooku's hands.

jaxx
08-29-2005, 01:20 PM
Here it is...

Anakin is, essentially, a good boy when he's in Tatooine. During the sand storm, in his house, he speeks of morality and helping mankind. He is good... not evil.
He's taken away from his mother at such an early age, with the fear of not seeing his mother again... with the knowledge that his homeworld is unsafe, and that his mother is still a SLAVE. Yoda knew what he was talking about when he described how fear leads to suffering... then the Dark Side. If Ani had never been takien away from his mother, he would have never had any resentment for leaving her. That resentment is carried throughout all of the prequel films. Remember, Ani didn't lose his mother once, he lost her twice! Once when he left Tatooine, and again when she died. He blames himself for that.
The second part...
If Ani had left Tatooine and never become close to Padme, he might have been able to concentrate on his Jedi training... but we all know what happens next.
Padme becomes the female in Ani's life. It's a sort of Freudian thing working here. She comforts him, shows him compassion, and love. He carries that emotion with him during the 10 years between Episode 1 and Episode 2. Padme being the only female to give him that love becomes a forethought in his life. He speeks of how he's dreamt about her every night since they last saw eachother. Cearly that evolves into a blossoming love affair between the two. Now, during Episode 3, Ani is faced with losing Padme, just as he lost his mother. Again, the female in his life is going away. He is losing the only one that has replaced his mother and kept him grounded. He doesn't want to lose her, so he is willing to do ANYTHING to save her. As he, in a round about way mentions before, will not allow those that he cares about to die again. If he had never met Padme... if she had never given him so much love... he would have not been put into the position to choose between the Jedi way, and the Dark Side in order to prolong Padme's life.
Yes Qui Gon was too consumed by the prophecy. Yes, Obi Wan was not experienced enough to take on a Padawan. Yes, Ani was always teetering on the edge between anger and contentment. But we have to ask... what brought on that anger? Fear leades to anger. We know where it goes from there.

decadentdave
08-29-2005, 01:51 PM
Plenty of people have been jerks to me in my life and I don't do around blasting people. Heck I've been a jerk to plenty of people in my day as well and they haven't lopped off any of my limbs (yet).

I'm sorry but I must sympathize with Anakin. Plenty of people have been jerks to me all of my life as well. The only difference is Anakin actually DID something about it. He let out his anger, something I have wanted to do to everyone that has treated me with such disrespect. That's one of the reasons why I love Revenge of the Sith and why it is my favorite Star Wars film... because it is cathartic. I feel Anakin's pain and his rage and his desire to make things right no matter the consequences and seeing him turn against everyone was the moment I had waited my whole life to see and it was purely exhilerating. I would love to go to the Dark Side, unfortunately I have been brainwashed by moral restraint because I was raised by such loving parents so it has controlled my emotions, but if given the choices Anakin was faced with, I too would turn to the Dark Side! Absolutely! :twisted:

Rogue II
08-29-2005, 02:22 PM
decadentdave, you almost prove the point that it is Anakin's fault. He chose to unleash all that anger and ignore his Jedi training.

I'll still say it's Anakin's own fault for listening to Palpatine. Anakin whined and complained for 2 movies about how he was treated unfairly (probably due to Palpatine influence). Mace and Obi-Wan tried to keep him in his place through "tough love." I think they had his best interest in mind. Anakin didn't see it that way. He didn't even really earn his Council Seat, it took a special order from Palpatine for him to be on the Council. Of course, Palpatine had other things in mind when he placed Anakin there. In the end, Palpatine just knew which buttons to push to seduce Anakin to the Dark Side.

For being the "Chosen One," he sure got his butt kicked a lot. He was captured by Jango Fett, lost an arm to Dooku, and his other 3 limbs to Obi-Wan. Yes, he did dominate a bunch of un-suspecting Tusken Raiders, but those metal sticks aren't really a match for a lightsaber.

JimJamBonds
08-29-2005, 02:25 PM
Don't get me wrong I think Anakin should have been treated better. And I too sympathize with him. The thing is how you do something about the way you are treated. Anakin could have said something about it to somebody other then Obi-Wan. I don't think going postal was the best way to go about solving his problems.

decadentdave
08-29-2005, 02:42 PM
If anything, it proves that character disposition is formed by the environment and situations in which we are raised in. Criminals are products of their environments. Some have no conscious or remorse or have chosen to simply ignore them for personal gain. Whose to say who is the more right and who is the more wrong? Like Palpatine said "Good is a point of view," and Obi-Wan tells Luke "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." That is why there is so much conflict and how wars get started because one side believes they are right and another side disagrees and objects on moral ground. Like Padme says to Anakin "Maybe the Republic has become the very evil we are fighting to destroy," echoes my sentiments about democracy in the United States. What it all boils down to is that EVERYONE is responsible for the things that happen. Qui-Gon, Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and ultimately, Anakin for making the decision... the CHOICE. And it is God's fault for being insufferable to the evil's of the world. We are all products of our environment but as individuals we have a responsibility to control how we react to situations. But hey, it's feels good sometimes to do something we shouldn't or that we know better than. Anakin took it to the extreme.

Rogue II
08-29-2005, 04:29 PM
Qui-Gon, Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and ultimately, Anakin for making the decision... the CHOICE.

I'll agree with that. They all contributed to how Anakin made his choice. The Jedi wanted him to work his way up the ranks, while Palpatine told Anakin everything he wanted to hear about saving lives and gave him the respect he thought he deserved.



...Anakin took it to the extreme.

No kiddin'. It wouldn't have been much of a movie if he didn't. :)

JediTricks
08-29-2005, 05:02 PM
Just to let you know, I ended up making a poll based on this thread's underlying question. I knew I was going to do it when I first saw the thread, but I didn't want to tip my hand in case SirSteve had another poll in mind this week and I couldn't deliver.

megaprime33
08-30-2005, 03:07 PM
I don't feel that it was qui-gon's fault. He was very passionate and truely believed that anakin was the chosen one.

It really makes you think on whether or not ani/vader really was the chosen one. Yes, he did turn bad and slaughter a large portion of jedi. But at the same time, did he not undo this by killing the emperor, and by doing that spawning a new generation of jedis?

decadentdave
08-30-2005, 03:12 PM
"Is he not the Chosen One?" - Obi-Wan
"So the Prophecy says." - Mace Windu
"A prophecy misread that could have been." - Yoda

Yes, Anakin WAS the Chosen One. That is why Redemption is the central theme of the Saga because he restores balance to the Force at the end of Jedi when he overthrows the Emperor and why Padme says "I know there is good in him."

JediTricks
08-31-2005, 01:06 AM
"Chosen one, the boy may be..." - Yoda, TPM (accent mine)

Doesn't even say he IS, just that he MAY be.



I don't feel that it was qui-gon's fault. He was very passionate and truely believed that anakin was the chosen one. So it's ok to basically ruin the kid's life so long as Qui-Gon felt strongly about an abstract prophecy? What if Qui-Gon killed Anakin to fulfil the prophecy, would that not be his fault so long as he really believed?


By the way, Qui-Gon is getting creamed in the poll... well, sorta. I mean, most people are voting for Anakin's fault, letting QGJ off the hook.

megaprime33
08-31-2005, 08:54 AM
So it's ok to basically ruin the kid's life so long as Qui-Gon felt strongly about an abstract prophecy? What if Qui-Gon killed Anakin to fulfil the prophecy, would that not be his fault so long as he really believed?



Do you really believe that Qui-Gon ruined Anakin's life?? I mean he was a 9 year old slave and Qui-Gon freed him and gave him what he wanted; to be a Jedi. Sure the outcome wasn't all that great, but I feel it was all Anakin's fault for doing so. "He was seduced by the dark side of the force." Palpatine played him like a fiddle. And in believing into his dreams of Padme dying, he caved. He still had goodness in him when he told Windu that palps was sidious. He could have just let that go, but no. Then during the battle, Palps convinces anakin to join and thus starts the spiral downfall.

jaxx
08-31-2005, 10:46 AM
The question still remains... WHY DID ANI TURN??? Everyone's too eager to point the finger and blame someone. It's not always that easy. What was his reason for saving Sidious' life and joining him? He didn't want to lose Padme. Go back to my post a couple of days ago. I think it's the reason he turned. You can't pin his turning to the Dark Side on any particular person. You can pin it on a series of events beginning with his exodus from Tatooine. But who's fault is that??? Is it really Qui-Gon's? Is it Shimi's for not saying "no" to Qu-Gon? Was it Ani's for deciding to leave his mother? Was it Watto's for deciding to participate in Qui-Gon's wager? Was it Ric Olie's for not dodging the Trade Federation's fire better... causing the ship to need repairs on Tatooine?

Ani was sad that he left his mother. He was fearful that he would neer see her again. It left a void in his heart that was somewhat filled by Padme. When his mother died, he felt responsible, and that void grew bigger. Padme filled that up as much as she could, and when it came time that he was losing Padme, he decided to do anything possible to prevent her from dying. He couldn't lose both of the women in his life... That thought was too much to bare for poor ol' Ani. So he turned. He wanted to learn how to prevent people from dying. His intentions were GOOD, but his reasons were selfish, and the universe paid dearly for that decision.

JediTricks
09-01-2005, 04:19 AM
Do you really believe that Qui-Gon ruined Anakin's life?? I mean he was a 9 year old slave and Qui-Gon freed him and gave him what he wanted; to be a Jedi.Anakin's life as a slave didn't look all that bad, he had a loving mother and he didn't seem particularly poor off or abused by his master - he wasn't getting chided constantly for simple showboating or getting his limbs cut off for being a teenager and acting impulsively as teenagers often do.

As for giving him what he wanted, most 9-year-olds want fantasies, they want to be astronauts and superman and Optimus Prime. They don't see the downsides to those things they want, they don't see that being a fireman requires lots of danger and training and being away from one's family for long stretches; that being an astronaut takes even more training and a lot of book learning and has even more danger; that being Superman means always having to fight the same lame-arse villains over and over again, and being subjected to kryptonite all the time, especially crazy-color kryptonite which makes silly things happen. Just because I liked watching reruns of the tv show "Kung Fu" as a kid doesn't mean that if a shaolin monk offered me a position with his order my mom would have let me go off.



And in believing into his dreams of Padme dying, he caved. I may not agree with how Lucas had her die, but the dream of Padme dying was not a falsehood, it did come true.

megaprime33
09-01-2005, 08:10 AM
Anakin's life as a slave didn't look all that bad, he had a loving mother and he didn't seem particularly poor off or abused by his master - he wasn't getting chided constantly for simple showboating or getting his limbs cut off for being a teenager and acting impulsively as teenagers often do.
But at the same time he was in fact a slave. He couldn't do all of the things that he really wanted to. He was owned by another person. Yes, he didn't seem to have been mistreated or whatever but he still lived a slaves life. How good could it really be?





I may not agree with how Lucas had her die, but the dream of Padme dying was not a falsehood, it did come true.
It only became true because Anakin turned to the darkside. If he hadn't she would have lived. It was his choice because he felt so strongly about a dream he had and wanted to find a way to save her. So in turn, he killed her.

decadentdave
09-01-2005, 01:05 PM
Yeah, that Watto was quite a slave driver wasn't he? There's nothing worse than having your life ruled by a fat overgrown hummingbird with a shylock nose! lol

So now we move the blame from Qui-Gon to Watto. That's hilarious. That's one of the reasons why Phantom Menace was such a failure for me because I had a hard time believing that this "slave" was capable of doing all of the these fantastic abilities. Anakin was more spoiled than most spoiled kids I see today (and kids today are spoiled rotten). He gets to fly podracers and build droids... sheesh. Slave right? You gotta be kidding. If Ani was really a slave, shylock Watto would be pimpin Shmi out on the streets of Mos Espa while Ani would be nothing more than an errand boy to all of the Boonta Eve podracer contestents. Instead, he is celebrity of the Boonta Eve pod race. About the worst Ani has it is getting bullied by little Greedo. HA!!! What 9-year kid wasn't bullied in the school yard? Yeah, Anakin has it REAL tough. Wah!

Like I said before, all of the factors and people in our lives are influential to the choices and decisions we make, but ultimately the choices are ours to make and we are responsible for them. Anakin CHOSE to go to the Dark Side for selfish reasons. I'm not disagreeing with them, but he had to pay the price for the consequences of his actions. In the end, it really is Anakin's fault.

2-1B
09-01-2005, 01:49 PM
Watto liked to keep Shmi for himself.

decadentdave
09-01-2005, 02:10 PM
Watto liked to keep Shmi for himself.

Then you saying that Watto is really the father? lol

Qui-Gon Jinn is the Lee Harvey Oswald patsy of the Saga. The only thing missing is an exchange of dialog where Anakin tells Padme "I am not a crook" after he kills the younglings and the scandalous Saga will be complete!

2-1B
09-01-2005, 02:12 PM
Then you saying that Watto is really the father? lol

I see a resemblance. :thumbsup:

JediTricks
09-01-2005, 09:38 PM
But at the same time he was in fact a slave. He couldn't do all of the things that he really wanted to. He was owned by another person. Yes, he didn't seem to have been mistreated or whatever but he still lived a slaves life. How good could it really be?Going by the backstory stuff for TPM, I know it's EU but still, since droids are the real working slave class, human slaves are more a luxury item. And as for the abstract concept of freedom, it's not like he enjoyed it in the Jedi Order either.

decadentdave
09-01-2005, 10:48 PM
Yeah well, let's take a look at the Jedi Order and show them for what they really are, shall we? They are a Cult not unlike Scientology or Freemasonry... a group of Fundamentalists whose belief system is built around a mystical energy field called The Force which, in all actuality is simply a bunch of microscopic cells called Midiclorians that channel this energy. Their initiates are indoctrinated based on their genetic pre-disposition toward these Midiclorians and they ascend through the different "levels" or ranks of the Jedi Order through apprenticeship and mentoring. They forbid their members to learn any "arcane" knowledge of the Dark Side and poison their minds with selective knowledge of the Light. Those that attempt to "balance" their ideology such as Qui-Gon Jinn or Count Dooku are generally shunned by its members. Looking at this paradigm, it is easy to see how Anakin saw them for what they really were.

And as for slavery...

Aren't most of us not working-class slaves to the system?

JediTricks
09-03-2005, 04:24 AM
Yeah, but the system at least has the good graces not to calls us slaves to our faces most of the time. :p


I'm of the mind that most of the Jedi didn't actually believe in the midichlorians the way Qui-Gon did, nobody backs Qui-Gon up in Ep 1 when he talks about them, they make a couple "maybes" but nobody else jumps on board with these 2 Force ideas (The Force and the Living Force) or the midis.

decadentdave
09-03-2005, 04:49 AM
Yeah, I would imagine that the knowledge of midi-clorians would be considered apocryphal by council members because it detracts from the spiritual Force that guides a Padawan's teachings. Obviously Yoda, Mace and other Masters have this knowledge but perhaps this "enlightenment" is attained when the Knights reach the level of Master. Any dilineation between the spiritual Force and the living Force would be somewhat arcane, perhaps something more embraced by Dooku and the Lost Twenty and one of the reasons why Dooku believed Qui-Gon would join the Seperatist cause.

"If one is to understand the Great Mystery, one must understand all of its aspects... not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise Leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force." - Chancellor Palpatine

JimJamBonds
09-03-2005, 10:48 AM
Qui-Gon Jinn is the Lee Harvey Oswald patsy of the Saga. The only thing missing is an exchange of dialog where Anakin tells Padme "I am not a crook" after he kills the younglings and the scandalous Saga will be complete!

Don't you mean R. Milhouse Nixon with a quote like that? ;)

decadentdave
09-03-2005, 04:25 PM
Don't you mean R. Milhouse Nixon with a quote like that? ;)

Qui-Gon's the patsy. Anakin's the Crook. After all, this thread is attempting to place the blame on Qui-Gon for Anakin's shortcomings.