PDA

View Full Version : Who is at fault for Anakin's fall to the Dark Side?



JediTricks
08-29-2005, 03:58 PM
A recent thread in the Episode I forum by DarkArtist suggested that Qui-Gon Jinn instead of Obi-Wan was at fault for Anakin's fall to the Dark Side when the Jedi Master insisted that 9-year-old Anakin be trained despite the word of the Jedi Council. This created quite the discussion, with many opposing viewpoints about which entity is most responsible for Anakin's turn to evil, as well as the nature of that responsibility and the avenues in getting there. So what do you guys think about the issue of who is truly to blame for little Anakin becoming the evil Darth Vader? We know Palpatine is the architect of his downfall, but he merely exploited weaknesses that were already within Anakin -- who put those weaknesses there?

Captain Spoon
08-29-2005, 04:08 PM
It's Anakin's fault. Even though he was pimp with a lightsaber, inside he was a short-tempered whinny little b**ch

JediTricks
08-29-2005, 04:09 PM
Ah, but did he make himself that way, or was that brought on by other circumstances?

Captain Spoon
08-29-2005, 04:13 PM
probobly a little of both

1/3 his fault: he was not sopose to go to tatooine, so he never would have know his mom to be dead. Also he broke another rule with the whole wedding thing.

1/3 Circumstances. He did have a pretty rough life over all (Jedi rule breaking excluded)

1/3 Bad Acting:thumbsup: nuff' said

CaptainSolo1138
08-29-2005, 04:26 PM
QGJ got the whole ball of wax rollin', so I pin it to him.

waboritas
08-29-2005, 04:30 PM
I voted Jedi Coucil, Yoda included. I assume Yoda had to get their permission to grant Obi Wan permission to train Anakin. Had they stuck to their guns who knows what would become of him. He was the Luke of TPM, unknown blows up the big ship and saves the day and would be known to all from then on. In all likelihood Palpatine would have discovered him and trained him as a Sith as he was known for his acts during the Battle of Naboo, but it would be impossible for the Council not to know this and there can only be a master and an apprentice in the Sith, so that might or might not happen.

Anyone that says Qui Gon is not off base as if he left the kid on Tatooine, he could have saved the Galaxy from a Galactic Empire and many years of civil war thereafter.

I don't think there was any way the Council would have stopped the Clone Wars from happening as Palpatine was going through with that plan before anyone knew who Anakin was. He probably could have carried the whole thinkg out with Dooku as he was very powerful, and I'm sure they could have found someone else to seduce to the dark side.

As far as blaming Obi Wan, that is not out of the question either. What if Obi Wan had listened to Dooku in AOTC and sided with him. Likely, his plan was to kill Palps and Obi Wan would become his apprentice. In this scenario, Palpatine still ends up with Anakin as his apprentice as he protects Palpatine, likely kills his master and Palpatines apprentice opening up a spot for himself as Palpatine's apprentice. He then takes out the Jedi Council one by one and the battle ends with Mace vs. Anakin with Mace taking him down or Anakin taking out Mace.

You could blame Palpatine because he orchestrated the whole trade blockade which led to the discovery of Anakin. Jedi land on ship, almost get killed, land in Naboo, endo up with queen, escpae Naboo with queen, queen's ship gets damage and lands on Tatooine, Jedi discovers Anakin.

Too many what ifs. I quit.

vader68
08-29-2005, 04:56 PM
You have to be accountable for your own actions, therefore I voted for Anakin.

Yes he had horrible things happen to him, but he should know the difference between right and wrong.We have all had bad things happen to us through our lives, some of us more than others. But that is not going to make us turn on our friends and murder all of them when we get older. He was brought up a Jedi and knows what is right and wrong, no matter what anybody tells him,or tries to twist things to make him think otherwise. Bottom line, he has to blame himself.:whip:

Battle Droid
08-29-2005, 05:09 PM
Anakin's, he's old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

JediTricks
08-29-2005, 05:12 PM
In my opinion, Qui-Gon was too caught up in the prophecy to listen to what the council said about Anakin, if Qui-Gon had heeded their words, Anakin could have gone home free and stayed with his mom and enjoyed a relatively normal life. Ultimately it is Qui-Gon's arrogance that starts the ball rolling.

That's what I said in the original thread about this, and I stick by it. Qui-Gon ripped Anakin away from his mother before the boy was ready to be removed from the only family he had ever known with promises of power and lightsabers and candy. Qui-Gon didn't exactly work very hard to free Shmi either, pretty convenient since that would have hampered his attempts to turn the boy into the Jedi mentioned in the prophecy. Anakin is a little 9 year old boy who is naturally afraid of losing his mommy, so Qui-Gon puts stars in his eyes and whisks him away on the basis of a prophecy which the rogue Jedi Master seems overly-intent on seeing fulfilled. Would Anakin have been full of fear and hate if he had been left with his mother on Tatooine? Especially once freed from his slave bonds, he could have worked to free her and become a better person instead of being trained - despite the Jedi Council's decision - to become the most powerful yet irresponsible and irrational Jedi ever. It is ultimately Qui-Gon's hubris and devotion to the prophecy of the one which puts Anakin onto the path towards the Dark Side.

Slicker
08-29-2005, 05:15 PM
It's QGJ's fault. He believed so firmly in the prophecy that he was blind to the fact that Anakin was troubled. It's unfortunate that a little boy from a desert planet can cause the entire universe to turn upside down.

Mandalorian Candidat
08-29-2005, 05:59 PM
It's his own fault. He chose not to follow the good council being shared with him by Yoda and OB1 and took the easy way out by listening to the silver-tounged devil Palpatine. People get screwed every day, but how they let their attitude develop is their own responsibility. Some take the high road and get on with their lives and some succumb to their unfortunate circumstances. Ani did the latter.

Man did Hayden suck in that role...

bobafrett
08-29-2005, 06:33 PM
Anakin, he couldn't keep his lustful hands off of Padme, and he went against the rules for being a Jedi, and he got burned (literally) in the end.

redfive41101
08-29-2005, 06:37 PM
Anakin is at fault. While he eventually restored balance he chose the path to get there, even if it was influenced by Padme and Palpatine.

kingyeti
08-29-2005, 06:46 PM
anakin was born into slavery and because of this he always wanted for independence.this is why he couldn't follow the rules and could never truly control his emotions.

spang2005
08-29-2005, 07:40 PM
This is that old free will vs. predestination debate. If you believe in free will, then Anakin is at fault for choosing to go to the dark side. Predestination, however, puts no one at fault as Anakin was the chosen one and his destiny was the will of the Force.

shortcat
08-29-2005, 08:01 PM
I don't have time to read everything that has been written here, but I feel the need to vent on this subject. If someone has already said what I'm about to say, I apologise, but here goes...

This whole subject just smacks of our society's need to blame somebody. Its the "I'm a product of my environment and my upbringing and I want to sue somebody" attitude. I'm tired of it, in our society and in general. Bad circumstances and upbringing has much less to do with anything than the choices a person makes. A child from the slums can still grow up to be a wealthy, prosperous businessman. It is the choices we all make that shape our lives and our future, not the people presenting us with the choices. So if our lives suck, its not our parents' fault, its ours {unless, perhaps, we still live at home (though it could be argued that it is still our choice to stay there, not theirs).}

It all comes down to choices. Bad choices made for good reasons are still bad choices. Anakin made plenty of these. Likewise, good choices made for the wrong reasons can be just as damaging and damning. If some guy came up to you and offered you drugs and you accepted, and got hooked on drugs, its not the fault of the guy who first offerred. Its yours. The only thing you can actually blame on somebody else is something that you weren't given a choice in, and that very rarely happens. Usually we say we didn't have a choice to make ourselves feel better about a choice we already made.

No, Anakin's fall to the dark side was no one's fault but his own, and no one can make me believe anything different.

THE CHOSENONE
08-29-2005, 09:15 PM
If I voted on this silly subject my vote would have to be GEORGE LUCAS. Seeing how he created the Star Wars universe and all. Come on people I love Star Wars but for the love of God they are movies not real life.

Rocketboy
08-29-2005, 09:20 PM
Anakin all the way.
Everyone should be accountable for his/her own actions.

Anakin was the one that had no patience,
And fell in love, got married, and knocked up his girl.
And defied the council by leaving Tatooine to help Obi-Wan (but that could be blamed on Padme).
And slaughtered Tuskens.
And killed a defenseless Dooku.
And didn't kill Palpatine when he had the chance.
And helped kill Mace Windu.
And gave into the dark side and became Sith.
And betrayed the Jedi Order.
These were all Anakin's choices and his alone.

Bobby Fett
08-29-2005, 09:24 PM
You have to be accountable for your own actions, therefore I voted for Anakin.

Exactly! Although in the EU, Anakin will hire a great lawyer and sue everyone in the galaxy. :rolleyes:

scruffziller
08-29-2005, 09:34 PM
If I voted on this silly subject my vote would have to be GEORGE LUCAS. Seeing how he created the Star Wars universe and all. Come on people I love Star Wars but for the love of God they are movies not real life.

True, but they are parables. Reflections and symbols of real life. The stories use real life concepts.

Turbowars
08-29-2005, 09:40 PM
anakin was born into slavery and because of this he always wanted for independence.this is why he couldn't follow the rules and could never truly control his emotions.This is a great point and explains alot about the down fall of old Anakin.

If I voted on this silly subject my vote would have to be GEORGE LUCAS. Seeing how he created the Star Wars universe and all. Come on people I love Star Wars but for the love of God they are movies not real life. Yeah this whole subject is straight from the Geeks heart, but if you don't like it for the love of the Gods, don't bother to post.

trandoshan666
08-29-2005, 09:41 PM
It is ultimately Qui-Gon's hubris and devotion to the prophecy of the one which puts Anakin onto the path towards the Dark Side.
That's true, but there's a difference between putting Anakin on the path to the Dark Side and being "at fault" for Anakin actually becoming a Sith. If there wasn't, then the answer could just as easily be Palpatine, since he steered Anakin down the path that Qui-Gon put him on.
Our life experience shapes our perspective, but we're ultimately responsible for the decisions we make. That's why Anakin and Anakin only can be "at fault" for his turn to evil.

Kidhuman
08-29-2005, 10:08 PM
Bottom line, Anakin decided wo to listen too. He turned his back on the right thing. Nobodays fault but mine I do believe the song goes and Anakin is whining the tune.

stillakid
08-29-2005, 10:13 PM
You are ultimately responsible for your own actions. No one can make you do anything you don't want to do. And as the on screen evidence shows...or better yet, doesn't show, all we know is that Hayd-akin was a bipolar moody teen with a sense of unearned entitlement brought about by...well, we don't know because we enter AOTC with him this way after having seen him as a squeaky clean golly-gee boy just one episode earlier. Regardless, he proved that he knew right from wrong and actively and consciously made the choice of wrong, therefore Anakin himself is to blame for his own downfall. :whip:

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
08-29-2005, 10:22 PM
Anakin deserves the most blame, while the others listed all played a role, in varying degrees, on his turn to the darkside. None of those choices willingly gave Anakin away, and all tried to steer him to the right and honorable path, yet Anakin's temprament, shown especially during his training, did him in.

He was constantly defying Obi-Wan's wishes despite the effort Obi-Wan gave in enforcing them. He defied the order to go over to Tatooine and assist Obi-Wan, he defied the strict jedi rules on attachment and betrayed the council in the end by joining Palpatine.

When it comes down to it, Anakin controlled his own fate and made a series of choices that lead to his downfall.

2-1B
08-29-2005, 10:32 PM
I voted for Anakin Skywalker. I certainly do sympathize with him in the decision he made to try and save Padme but he had Yoda's advice before him and he chose to go against that. I think that he himself perpetuated that dream and its eventual reality. Since Padme died broken hearted, had Anakin not turned in the first place I don't believe she would have died as he believed. They even showed that one vision he had of Obi-Wan telling her, "don't give up Padme." She wouldn't have given up had he not turned. He misinterpreted his dream. lol lol lol

I salute Hayden Christensen for really pulling off the character in this dicey situation, especially in the 3rd episode of the saga. :)

So while I pin it on Anakin and voted for him, don't get me wrong - if there is a place in Hell for Anakin Skywalker, then Palpatine is going to find himself a few levels below him because that guy was truly evil to the core ! :grin:

JimJamBonds
08-30-2005, 12:27 AM
There are tons of people that could be choosen for being at fault and each has a part in the fall, but in the end as many have already said it is Anakin who gets my vote. He had the choice to make and he made that decision, not anybody else. Anners all the way.

DarkArtist
08-30-2005, 08:15 AM
Wow i didn't think that a simple post of an opinion would result in a poll on the website, WOW.

Anyway like i said earlier I still think Qui Gon is responsible for his actions with defying the jedi council and training anakin. Obi wan is at fault as well because he too told the council that he would defy them as well and train anakin.

However, I also agree with the posts so far. A person is responsible for his or her own actions. Anakin had the chose of whether to turn to the dark side or stay true to the Jedi and the Force.

I also agree with the idea that yes society is NOT TO BLAME for the way one turns out. Example would be the recent video game debate over Grand Theft Auto, I know 13 and 15 year olds who play that game for hours a day and have no desire to go out a steal a car, yet people are always looking for a scapegoat. Someone is always going to look for some reason to say I was under the influence of this and that is why I am the way I am. :twisted:

The fault lies with many and now after reading these posts I feel that the fault can't lay simiply with Qui Gon, but the fault must be shared by all, Qui Gon and Obi Wan for training anakin against the councils wishes. The council for not having the stronger will as saying NO to trainin anakin and making Obi wan a Knight. Palpatine for orchestrating the entire plot, and last but not least Anakin for choosing the wrong path for the wrong reasons.

Every one has a choice as to how they are going to shape their lives, even Jedi.

Vengecore
08-30-2005, 02:01 PM
Why aren't Padme or Palpatine voting options?

thatsmahdawg
08-30-2005, 07:34 PM
i blame the jedi council, and unfortunatly, i somewhat blame mace windu, although i admire him, he went over board with anakin, if he was "the one" they should have at least gave him the benefit of the doubt on occasion, i believe if anakin had been there with mace, sasee, agen kolar, and kit fisto when the went to apprehend palpatine, none of this would have happened, but hey, its a movie, he was going to be darth vader anyways.......but if it were real i would blame it on the council's rashness towards anakin, i do believe that they were somewhat "jealous" of his abilities, but damn, he was "the one" let him be...the one. and not try to scold him all the time, he did do most of the rescueing, ego or not. even anakin felt remorse.

JediTricks
08-31-2005, 12:27 AM
It's his own fault. He chose not to follow the good council being shared with him by Yoda and OB1 and took the easy way out by listening to the silver-tounged devil Palpatine. People get screwed every day, but how they let their attitude develop is their own responsibility. Some take the high road and get on with their lives and some succumb to their unfortunate circumstances. Ani did the latter.

Man did Hayden suck in that role...Ah, but Qui-Gon came first when choosing not to follow the council when concerning Anakin, Qui-Gon actively made it possible for Anakin to even be put in those positions.

I agree with the Hayden comment though. :D



This whole subject just smacks of our society's need to blame somebody. Its the "I'm a product of my environment and my upbringing and I want to sue somebody" attitude. I'm tired of it, in our society and in general. Bad circumstances and upbringing has much less to do with anything than the choices a person makes. ... It is the choices we all make that shape our lives and our future, not the people presenting us with the choices. Anakin is put into this situation too young to make his own decisions, Qui-Gon is who made the lifechoice for Anakin which set him on the path to evil - there's no vague "nature vs nurture" argument in that, Qui-Gon disobeyed the Jedi Council to ensure that Anakin would be a Jedi.


It all comes down to choices. Bad choices made for good reasons are still bad choices. Anakin made plenty of these. Likewise, good choices made for the wrong reasons can be just as damaging and damning. If some guy came up to you and offered you drugs and you accepted, and got hooked on drugs, its not the fault of the guy who first offerred. Its yours. The only thing you can actually blame on somebody else is something that you weren't given a choice in, and that very rarely happens. IMO, Qui-Gon promising 9-year-old Ani adventure and power and freedom is like making the choice for him, I don't remember Qui-Gon telling Ani he couldn't fall in love or get married or come back for his mother, do you? Qui-Gon Jinn made the decision for Ani, said he would train the boy even in the face of opposition from the Jedi Council no matter the ramifications.



That's true, but there's a difference between putting Anakin on the path to the Dark Side and being "at fault" for Anakin actually becoming a Sith. Well, perhaps I titled the thread wrong then or something, but I see Qui-Gon's actions as being the foundation for all failure built upon it. If you put an angry little scared boy in a position of power, 10 years later when he's more angry and powerful you can't shrug and wonder how he got there, you have to accept that you created a problem instead of a solution.



Why aren't Padme or Palpatine voting options? Because I didn't see Padme contributing in any way, the only thing she did was give into his mad scheme to hide their marriage - I didn't expect anybody to put primary blame on an enabler. As for Palpatine, it was too easy, and in my mind Palps only baited Anakin, used what was already there make things worse and hasten his fall.

stillakid
08-31-2005, 06:41 AM
Well, perhaps I titled the thread wrong then or something, but I see Qui-Gon's actions as being the foundation for all failure built upon it. If you put an angry little scared boy in a position of power, 10 years later when he's more angry and powerful you can't shrug and wonder how he got there, you have to accept that you created a problem instead of a solution.

Jake-akin sure didn't appear to be very angry or scared in TPM. So the question seems to be what made him turn from happy-go-lucky "gee whiz, this looks like fun" boy in TPM to "I'm a bipolar moody freakteen with a sense of entitlement" in AOTC? You can't blame that on a dead guy. Or on anyone else. Jake-akin was freed to go become a Jedi. He was happy about that despite being sad (briefly) about leaving mommy. He went away fully aware of being sad so again, it was his choice and his alone. Nobody put a gun (or a lightsaber) to his head. :whip:

jaxx
08-31-2005, 10:11 AM
From the other post:




The question still remains... WHY DID ANI TURN??? Everyone's too eager to point the finger and blame someone. It's not always that easy. What was his reason for saving Sidious' life and joining him? He didn't want to lose Padme. Go back to my post a couple of days ago.

Anakin is, essentially, a good boy when he's in Tatooine. During the sand storm, in his house, he speeks of morality and helping mankind. He is good... not evil.
He's taken away from his mother at such an early age, with the fear of not seeing his mother again... with the knowledge that his homeworld is unsafe, and that his mother is still a SLAVE. Yoda knew what he was talking about when he described how fear leads to suffering... then the Dark Side. If Ani had never been takien away from his mother, he would have never had any resentment for leaving her. That resentment is carried throughout all of the prequel films. Remember, Ani didn't lose his mother once, he lost her twice! Once when he left Tatooine, and again when she died. He blames himself for that.
The second part...
If Ani had left Tatooine and never become close to Padme, he might have been able to concentrate on his Jedi training... but we all know what happens next.
Padme becomes the female in Ani's life. It's a sort of Freudian thing working here. She comforts him, shows him compassion, and love. He carries that emotion with him during the 10 years between Episode 1 and Episode 2. Padme being the only female to give him that love becomes a forethought in his life. He speeks of how he's dreamt about her every night since they last saw eachother. Cearly that evolves into a blossoming love affair between the two. Now, during Episode 3, Ani is faced with losing Padme, just as he lost his mother. Again, the female in his life is going away. He is losing the only one that has replaced his mother and kept him grounded. He doesn't want to lose her, so he is willing to do ANYTHING to save her. As he, in a round about way mentions before, will not allow those that he cares about to die again. If he had never met Padme... if she had never given him so much love... he would have not been put into the position to choose between the Jedi way, and the Dark Side in order to prolong Padme's life.
Yes Qui Gon was too consumed by the prophecy. Yes, Obi Wan was not experienced enough to take on a Padawan. Yes, Ani was always teetering on the edge between anger and contentment. But we have to ask... what brought on that anger? Fear leades to anger. We know where it goes from there.
I think it's the reason he turned. You can't pin his turning to the Dark Side on any particular person. You can pin it on a series of events beginning with his exodus from Tatooine. But who's fault is that??? Is it really Qui-Gon's? Is it Shimi's for not saying "no" to Qu-Gon? Was it Ani's for deciding to leave his mother? Was it Watto's for deciding to participate in Qui-Gon's wager? Was it Ric Olie's for not dodging the Trade Federation's fire better... causing the ship to need repairs on Tatooine?

Ani was sad that he left his mother. He was fearful that he would neer see her again. It left a void in his heart that was somewhat filled by Padme. When his mother died, he felt responsible, and that void grew bigger. Padme filled that up as much as she could, and when it came time that he was losing Padme, he decided to do anything possible to prevent her from dying. He couldn't lose both of the women in his life... That thought was too much to bare for poor ol' Ani. So he turned. He wanted to learn how to prevent people from dying. His intentions were GOOD, but his reasons were selfish, and the universe paid dearly for that decision.

maatu
08-31-2005, 10:14 AM
it's anakin's fault. he let palpatine manipulate him in to believing he could save padme.anakin even though you thought he was an adult .he was nieve to things that were going on.i think palpatine even created that dream anakin had about losing padme or influenced it. it does not stop the fact anakin lost control and choked her. when after killing the separatist on mustafar. you saw him crying. he was lost. he knew he screwed up and there was no way of coming back from it.

Captain_John_Solo
08-31-2005, 05:41 PM
i was going to say padme's fault.. but she wasnt in the list ..so i said anakin.

Chaddymac
08-31-2005, 07:10 PM
Okay, I think assigning fault is a mistake because Anakin always had a choice. At every juncture he could have made a decision to avoid his fate and he always chose wrong. As far as the choices everyone else made, no one knew what would happen to him. Clouded his future was. They at LEAST made the best decisions given the information available to them. Otherwise, blame it on Yoda for not letting that column crush Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Anakin, on the other hand, always chose what was good to him over what was best for everyone. And Jake-akin was full of fear, a fear that comes from attachments (which is why the Jedi were not allowed to be trained past a certain age--fear of loss is a viable path to the darkside, as we've seen, but you can't lose something you don't have). Unfortunately, we don't know if Qui-Gon would have been able to help Anakin let go of his fear because he died before he had the chance. That said, he did go to great lengths to come back, didn't he? Anyway, he didn't make it back in time and Anakin turned to the Sith--blah blah.

I wouldn't describe Qui-Gon as having hubris anymore than I'd describe Morpheus that way. Blinded by the prophecy? Perhaps. Or maybe just guided by a faith normal people can't understand.

But Anakin became cocky because he had such a natural prowess with the force that he was an exceptional student. HE had hubris. He began to believe he could control the universe, that he should, and that he had the right to choose who lived and who died. And whenever he was threatened with the possibility of losing something dear to him, his fear propelled him into anger which fuelled the dark side within him.

Now, you can't blame Qui-Gon for dying, and you can't blame Obi-Wan for doing the best to fulfill the wishes of his former master and the jedi council. You can't really blame Yoda since he fought the council's decision, but did his best to make things work out. And you can't really blame the Jedi Council for being too weak. Ultimately, the only person who didn't do everything in their power to keep Anakin from destroying the galaxy, was Anakin (and Palpatine, the serpent dripping poison in his ear at every opportunity).

That said, it was all part of the prophecy. I'd actually love to go back and find out the origin of the prophecy. That'd be a neat story.

darktrooper7
08-31-2005, 10:23 PM
Why isnt palp on the poll? And i dont think it can just be one person. There is barely a time when something is purely and utterly the fault of one person - maybe the poll should be who influenced anakins fall, or perhaps who is MOST at fault, since i cant see it being just one person....except maybe palp!

Youre all forgetting what palp said at the end of EP1 - "We will be watching your career with great interest" or something along those lines. So clearly he could feel the potential of anakin and also see the conflict and turmoil within him (from leaving home, being a slave, losing qui-gon, etc). And the fact that palp turned dooku, who was yoda's padawan, is proof enough for me that he had the power to influence even the most powerful of jedi. And again the fact that yoda and the council couldnt detect palp also points to his power and mastery of the force.

Yes, he manipulated anakin and anakin maybe should have resisted. But look at it this way - if you take drugs they effect your state of mind and the decisions you make. So the fact that anakin was under the influence of palp for a long time has to have an effect - we see palp say to anakin "youre becoming the most powereful of all jedi" in AOTC, and like i said before also had his eye on him in TPM. So definately palp was influencing anakin heavily for a long period which if that hasnt effected his mental state, his outlook on all the issues, his faith in the council and the force itself. So to say he wasnt a major influence or cause of his fall is ridiculous.

So imho, this poll is useless because palp wasnt even included!

Turbowars
08-31-2005, 10:57 PM
You are so right about Palpatine. The way I see it Palpatine brought Anakin into the world to control him just as he did through out EP2 and 3.

JediTricks
09-01-2005, 02:13 AM
Jake-akin sure didn't appear to be very angry or scared in TPM. ... He was happy about that despite being sad (briefly) about leaving mommy. He went away fully aware of being sad so again, it was his choice and his alone. Nobody put a gun (or a lightsaber) to his head. :whip:He was angry when the council told him he wouldn't be trained. Also, he's a 9-year-old kid, that's too young to make a fully informed life decision. And let's see, "on the one hand, you can come with me to a life of adventure and excitement and power and freedom... or you can choose to remain a slave under Watto's heel until he gambles or sells you off without your mom - your choice kid."



i think palpatine even created that dream anakin had about losing padme or influenced it. Except that it actually came true, the Force showed him something that we learn later does happen. Palpatine may have manipulated the events, but the dream I think was genuine.



i was going to say padme's fault.. Please expand on that, you're not the first to say it but I can't see it at all.



I wouldn't describe Qui-Gon as having hubris anymore than I'd describe Morpheus that way. Blinded by the prophecy? Perhaps. Or maybe just guided by a faith normal people can't understand. Except as Matrix 3 showed us, Morpheus' faith was wrong, it was artificially manipulated to exist, and it did not come true - eventually he comes to the day after faith and realizes nothing is what it seemed, and that revelation nearly breaks his spirit. It's easy to see the end of the road and know that eventually Anakin does fulfil the prophecy, but tell that to the inhabitants of Alderaan. ;)

Now, you can't blame Qui-Gon for dying Actually, I do, the guy takes this ridiculously large swing up and then just waits there to get run through, it's not like he didn't know there was a double-edged blade right there. :D



maybe the poll should be... who is MOST at fault I came REALLY close to going that route, but the last few polls I ran where I left the question a little vague so the voter would have to self-define it when voting, and I caught a little heat on those for that because I didn't spell it out. Believe me, I've been second-guessing the way I phrased this poll from the moment I clicked submit, but in the end I just had to leave it alone as any tampering might void folks' votes. I also considered going with multiple choice, but the last multiple choice poll was a mess because a lot of people didn't understand that aspect.

Yes, he manipulated anakin and anakin maybe should have resisted. But look at it this way - if you take drugs they effect your state of mind and the decisions you make. So the fact that anakin was under the influence of palp for a long time has to have an effect True, but I felt that Palpatine was able to manipulate Anakin through weaknesses in Anakin's character which were already there (this is why I didn't include Palps in the poll). Oftentimes, something in a person's character drives a drug user to use those drugs, but where did that weakness in them come from?

2-1B
09-01-2005, 02:51 AM
JT, how can you blame Qui-Gon for taking advantage of Little Ani's weaknesses and include him in the poll, and then not include Palpatine for taking advantage of Ani's weaknesses ? :confused:

I voted for Anakin and I stand by that, but personally I think that if people can "blame" any of the others on the list, they sure as heck can make an argument for Palps so I think he belongs on the poll.

JediTricks
09-01-2005, 03:55 AM
I don't remember saying Qui-Gon took advantage of little Anakin's weaknesses, but I do see a major difference between exploiting the whims of a 9-year-old boy and manipulating the character flaws of an adult (albeit a young adult). Qui-Gon basically made the choice for Anakin, he even lies to Anakin when taking his blood sample on Tatooine under the guise of cleaning a wound and checking for infections, when in reality he uses it to confirm his theory about the vergence and tells the boy nothing of this.

And I still think Palps being on the list would have been too easy, it's an option that would stand out and dissuade thinking about the question because on the surface it sounds like it makes sense. What does Palps actually do? He exacerbates Anakin's fears that he's not appreciated as a Jedi, that he's going to lose his wife, that he is very powerful but being held back, yet he didn't create those feelings in Anakin -- Anakin was already afraid of losing his loved ones, already frustrated that he wasn't appreciated by his peers, and already told that he was a very powerful Jedi -- and it is Qui-Gon's actions taken in desire to fulfill the prophecy which set all that in motion, as well as Qui-Gon's hubris in thinking he knew better than the Jedi Council whether or not 9-year-old Anakin could safely be trained as a Jedi, even as he lay dying knowing he could not train Anakin himself his desire to have the prophecy come to fruition was paramount to him.

Jaff
09-01-2005, 04:44 AM
The Jedi Council

They made it clear they never wanted him around, and that he really didn't deserve to be around them.

After 13 years of knowing master Windu the arrogant Jedi says Anakin will have gained his trust if his information that Palpatine was the Sith Lord was revealed as truth. Even near the end they ailienated him.

IF THEY JUST ACCEPTED AND SUPPORTED HIM FROM THE GET GO PALPATINE WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO CHALLENGE ANAKIN'S LOYALTY!

stillakid
09-01-2005, 07:35 AM
I don't remember saying Qui-Gon took advantage of little Anakin's weaknesses, but I do see a major difference between exploiting the whims of a 9-year-old boy and manipulating the character flaws of an adult (albeit a young adult). Qui-Gon basically made the choice for Anakin, he even lies to Anakin when taking his blood sample on Tatooine under the guise of cleaning a wound and checking for infections, when in reality he uses it to confirm his theory about the vergence and tells the boy nothing of this.


While I can certainly see how you're piecing this together, I think that you are misplacing the focus. The reasons that Qui Gon uses to get Ani on the boat are a non-issue. The point is that Ani chose to leave that life of slavery on his own. Of course he was young and didn't seem to really have a "choice" (adventure vs. slavery), but he did. He very well could have stayed with mommy. It's not like they were getting whipped everyday like they were on a plantation or something. :whip: They had a pretty normal comfortable life going there.

But that too is a non-issue. While "life" certainly happens to all of us...some good things, some bad....ultimately we are responsible for our own actions. Point being, while we could look at everyone who touched Anakin's life from birth through ROTS and find something in each example that had influence over his developing psyche, it is still Anakin himself who made the decisions on how to react to things and chose the forks in the road of life to travel. Just because someone has "influence" over you doesn't mean that they are to "blame" because you do something (good or bad). If nothing else, I sense a confusion of terms, a confusion of what defines "fault." If I do something inherently "wrong," no one else is at fault besides me IF I am also aware at that time that it is wrong. And we know per ROTS that Anakin was fully aware that he was taking the wrong road as he uttered, "What have I done?" It was a conscious choice on his part and thus there is no way to lay the fault of his downfall on anyone else.

2-1B
09-01-2005, 10:24 AM
JT, I question the integrity of a poll like this when you personally decide that Palpatine is not worth voting for. Heck, I think Yoda is a terrible choice, why is he on there ? Who are these 10 people that voted for him ? lol

Come on, Palpatine is a major player in this Fall to the Dark Side and if somebody wants to pin it on him, I really don't think it's up to you to decide that they can't vote for him. "Too easy" or not. Myself, I think Anakin is the easy answer because, well, I voted for him so on some level I think the vote is pointless because to me it is obvious that Anakin has to take the blame. But if people see it differently, that's the point of posting and I would be curious to see how many votes Palps would get. :)

Personally, I think QGJ is a terrible, terrible, choice but I wouldn't stop someone from voting for him, I would have him on the poll. :)

JediTricks
09-01-2005, 08:18 PM
The reasons that Qui Gon uses to get Ani on the boat are a non-issue. I think they go to his character and state of mind.


The point is that Ani chose to leave that life of slavery on his own. Of course he was young and didn't seem to really have a "choice" (adventure vs. slavery), but he did. Well, I disagree, and that's a cornerstone to Anakin's character. What if Qui-Gon hadn't given him the choice, simply whisked the kid away without asking, would Qui-Gon be "to blame" when the 9-year-old boy *didn't* choose the Jedi life?





JT, I question the integrity of a poll like this when you personally decide that Palpatine is not worth voting for. Heck, I think Yoda is a terrible choice, why is he on there ? Who are these 10 people that voted for him ? lolThe integrity of a poll like this??? It's for fun, nothing else, we're not using these results to elect a leader or change the DVD versions yet again. I'm the defacto poll moderator and it's my job to come up with polls that will be interesting to vote and post on, clearly this one hasn't failed in either of those as we have lots of posts, votes, and even page views.

Come on, Palpatine is a major player in this Fall to the Dark Side and if somebody wants to pin it on him, I really don't think it's up to you to decide that they can't vote for him. It totally *is* up to me, I came up with this poll and I am the section moderator, it's my job in both of those roles to focus these polls how I think they work best.

Myself, I think Anakin is the easy answer because, well, I voted for him so on some level I think the vote is pointless because to me it is obvious that Anakin has to take the blame. But if people see it differently, that's the point of posting and I would be curious to see how many votes Palps would get. :) Then you should have suggested that in the Poll Suggestions thread before I created this poll, anything else is monday-morning quarterbacking - if I change the poll options after the poll has gotten going, it skews the results against the new option and a lot of people end up asking me to change their votes.

Chaddymac
09-01-2005, 10:25 PM
Except as Matrix 3 showed us, Morpheus' faith was wrong, it was artificially manipulated to exist, and it did not come true - eventually he comes to the day after faith and realizes nothing is what it seemed, and that revelation nearly breaks his spirit. It's easy to see the end of the road and know that eventually Anakin does fulfil the prophecy, but tell that to the inhabitants of Alderaan. ;)

Hmm. You're point about Matrix 3 is well taken. But ultimately, it's all a question of perception, one's own point of view. Qui-Gon still acted on all the information available and made a choice that, while ballsy, he almost had a responsibility to make. That is perhaps why the Force chose him to find Anakin.


Actually, I do, the guy takes this ridiculously large swing up and then just waits there to get run through, it's not like he didn't know there was a double-edged blade right there. :D

You win that one. Qui-Gon's a dumbass.

2-1B
09-02-2005, 12:28 AM
The integrity of a poll like this??? It's for fun, nothing else, we're not using these results to elect a leader or change the DVD versions yet again.

That was my EXACT thinking as well, which is why I don't see the big deal about having Palps on the poll. lol I could see if you were trying to weed out the Perot or Nader vote, but we're talkin' SW shop here. The integrity is indeed compromised, Mr. Mas Amedda. :D


It totally *is* up to me, I came up with this poll and I am the section moderator, it's my job in both of those roles to focus these polls how I think they work best.

And so it is. :)

But then if you personally ignored the inclusion of Palps for being "too obvious" doesn't that skew the results as well ? (since you mention skewing below :) )


Then you should have suggested that in the Poll Suggestions thread before I created this poll, anything else is monday-morning quarterbacking - if I change the poll options after the poll has gotten going, it skews the results against the new option and a lot of people end up asking me to change their votes.

Sorry for not checking the Poll Suggestions Thread, I don't recall visiting it lately. My bad. :(

JediTricks
09-03-2005, 02:42 AM
Hmm. You're point about Matrix 3 is well taken. But ultimately, it's all a question of perception, one's own point of view. Qui-Gon still acted on all the information available and made a choice that, while ballsy, he almost had a responsibility to make. That is perhaps why the Force chose him to find Anakin.Oh ho, so now you're blaming The Force!!! I see how it is! ;) Here's the thing, for Qui-Gon, his faith drove him, but he never stopped to consider that he might be wrong (it is a vague prophecy) or how it would affect Anakin's life - he alone decide the fate of how this prophecy played out, and at no point was it made clear to the audience that this was actually his responsibility, he took that responsibility upon himself, that is why I think he is "at fault".



But then if you personally ignored the inclusion of Palps for being "too obvious" doesn't that skew the results as well ? (since you mention skewing below :) ) Not to my way of thinking, Palpatine is the end result to the poll's question, he takes the mistakes made by others and uses them to twist Anakin to evil - the poll is trying to ask who made the most mistakes that let Anakin get sucked in to the Dark Side.

Ji'dai
09-03-2005, 11:08 AM
Kenobi took responsibility for Anakin/Vader's fall in the OT so that is how I voted.

Since I consider the prequel trilogy to be expanded universe material, I disregard Qui-Gon Jinn and the Jedi Council's roles pertaining to Kenobi's decision to train Skywalker. The prophecy nonsense and midichlorian Force parasites are also ridiculous.

Kenobi was an established Jedi Knight who discovered and befriended Anakin Skywalker. Noting how skilled a pilot and cunning warrior he is, Kenobi realizes that Anakin is strong in the Force and in his arrogance, decides to train him. Since Kenobi is not a Master, Anakin's training is incomplete and he later is unable to resist the temptations of the Dark Side.

Palpatine was an opportunist who was able to exploit Kenobi's failings in Skywalker's training and ultimately lured Anakin to the Dark Side.

stillakid
09-03-2005, 12:10 PM
Kenobi took responsibility for Anakin/Vader's fall in the OT so that is how I voted.

Since I consider the prequel trilogy to be expanded universe material, I disregard Qui-Gon Jinn and the Jedi Council's roles pertaining to Kenobi's decision to train Skywalker. The prophecy nonsense and midichlorian Force parasites are also ridiculous.

Kenobi was an established Jedi Knight who discovered and befriended Anakin Skywalker. Noting how skilled a pilot and cunning warrior he is, Kenobi realizes that Anakin is strong in the Force and in his arrogance, decides to train him. Since Kenobi is not a Master, Anakin's training is incomplete and he later is unable to resist the temptations of the Dark Side.

Palpatine was an opportunist who was able to exploit Kenobi's failings in Skywalker's training and ultimately lured Anakin to the Dark Side.


Roger that! :)

This is of course the only true way to view the trilogy therefore Ji'dai is absolutely correct. But if we are forced to consider the possibility that the Prequels are worthy of examination, in a vacuum that Epiduds 1-3 exist in, Anakin is at fault on his own.

2-1B
09-03-2005, 12:59 PM
Not to my way of thinking, Palpatine is the end result to the poll's question, he takes the mistakes made by others and uses them to twist Anakin to evil - the poll is trying to ask who made the most mistakes that let Anakin get sucked in to the Dark Side.

Right, I see what you're saying because the end of the intro post you made did say that . . . but with the general title of "who is at fault for Anakin's Fall", it seems people were expecting to see Palps on there when they opened the choices. And if they didn't read your whole post for specifications on a seemingly simple question, it might not have been clear enough to them. Meh, Anakin is to blame anyway. :)


But if we are forced to consider the possibility that the Prequels are worthy of examination

Nobody is forcing you to discuss the poll topic. ;)

Chaddymac
09-03-2005, 08:29 PM
Oh ho, so now you're blaming The Force!!! I see how it is! ;) YES!! The Force should be an option!! But actually, I think I'm defending Qui-Gon because if you believe there's any value in faith, you have to accept it as a responsibility every person takes onto himself. Qui-Gon took on the responsibility of Anakin because he found him. I can't fault Qui-Gon for doing the only thing he could do in that situation. It really was playing out in the only way possible. But I CAN now fault him for dying.

I'd like to offer a new option: Darth Plaigus (does anyone know how to spell that accurately). I mean, I've been recently playing with a theory (since we don't know for sure) that the actual creation of Anakin was all part of the Sith plan, that he was always meant to be turned and that the prophecy was in some way tied to the Sith forseeing what creating Anakin would mean. So, there.

But yeah. Qui-Gon totally left himself open. Dumbass.

stillakid
09-04-2005, 12:40 AM
Nobody is forcing you to discuss the poll topic. ;)


Actually there's a guy named Eddie holding me hostage in an undisclosed location right now and he's got a gun to my head. :whip: :bandit:

2-1B
09-04-2005, 01:38 AM
But stillakid, the gun is painted bright orange, so you should know it's a toy version of Han's blaster. :D

stillakid
09-04-2005, 08:02 AM
But stillakid, the gun is painted bright orange, so you should know it's a toy version of Han's blaster. :D

Aw sh**, that would explain that "WHOOP WHOOP" sound. :hurt:

JediTricks
09-04-2005, 10:34 PM
Kenobi took responsibility for Anakin/Vader's fall in the OT so that is how I voted.

Since I consider the prequel trilogy to be expanded universe material, I disregard Qui-Gon Jinn and the Jedi Council's roles pertaining to Kenobi's decision to train Skywalker. The prophecy nonsense and midichlorian Force parasites are also ridiculous.

Kenobi was an established Jedi Knight who discovered and befriended Anakin Skywalker. Noting how skilled a pilot and cunning warrior he is, Kenobi realizes that Anakin is strong in the Force and in his arrogance, decides to train him. Since Kenobi is not a Master, Anakin's training is incomplete and he later is unable to resist the temptations of the Dark Side.

Palpatine was an opportunist who was able to exploit Kenobi's failings in Skywalker's training and ultimately lured Anakin to the Dark Side.
This is of course the only true way to view the trilogy therefore Ji'dai is absolutely correct. But if we are forced to consider the possibility that the Prequels are worthy of examination, in a vacuum that Epiduds 1-3 exist in, Anakin is at fault on his own.Stilla, I don't get you, you agree that if we take the OT only into account it's Kenobi's fault because he arrogantly chose to train Anakin and Palpatine was able to exploit this failure, YET by your logic if we take the prequels into account then when Qui-Gon is the one who arrogantly chose to train Anakin, then palmed this off on the unready Obi-Wan, and this was exploited by Palpatine, it's somehow Anakin's fault? I don't follow that at all.



but with the general title of "who is at fault for Anakin's Fall", it seems people were expecting to see Palps on there when they opened the choices. And if they didn't read your whole post for specifications on a seemingly simple question, it might not have been clear enough to them. I know, I had a lot of problems with this poll's title, I revised it twice and neither was really totally successful. A lot of times, I have these polls in my head and can only hope that the opening post lays out properly what the title cannot, sometimes that works for the voters and sometimes it doesn't.


Meh, Anakin is to blame anyway. :)

But if we are forced to consider the possibility that the Prequels are worthy of examination Nobody is forcing you to discuss the poll topic. ;)Caes, dude, he actually AGREED with your assessment on the prequel level that Anakin was at fault, it's time to let go of the fighting. :p



YES!! The Force should be an option!! But actually, I think I'm defending Qui-Gon because if you believe there's any value in faith, you have to accept it as a responsibility every person takes onto himself. Qui-Gon took on the responsibility of Anakin because he found him. I can't fault Qui-Gon for doing the only thing he could do in that situation. It really was playing out in the only way possible. But I CAN now fault him for dying. Poor The Force, it gets blamed for everything. :whip: ;)

Faith is fine for the individual, but when you use your faith to shape the destiny of others, you end up with The Crusades or Sept 11th. Qui-Gon takes responsibility not just for himself, but for the entire galaxy, ultimately reshaping it into an Empire with the people's defenders destroyed and an entire planet vaporized - is that not the definition of hubris? Overbearing arrogance or presumption, no? Maybe he was right, maybe the prophecy does eventually come true, but does QGJ still not take it upon himself to set up this little kid to become a miserable destroyer of worlds?


I'd like to offer a new option: Darth Plaigus (does anyone know how to spell that accurately). Plagueis.

2-1B
09-05-2005, 03:28 AM
I know, I had a lot of problems with this poll's title, I revised it twice and neither was really totally successful. A lot of times, I have these polls in my head and can only hope that the opening post lays out properly what the title cannot, sometimes that works for the voters and sometimes it doesn't.

Understood, and sorry if I squeezed your shoes a lil too hard on this one. :)


Caes, dude, he actually AGREED with your assessment on the prequel level that Anakin was at fault, it's time to let go of the fighting. :p

Who's fighting ? lol


Plagueis.

Not to be confused with Darth Plaqueis, Dark Lord of the Gingivitis.

DARKLORD_67
09-05-2005, 05:51 AM
I salute Hayden Christensen for really pulling off the character in this dicey situation, especially in the 3rd episode of the saga. :)

So while I pin it on Anakin and voted for him, don't get me wrong - if there is a place in Hell for Anakin Skywalker, then Palpatine is going to find himself a few levels below him because that guy was truly evil to the core ! :grin:

Very well-said, Caesar!!

I too voted for Anakin Skywalker being to blame for his own fall.

The Jedi Council's constant mistrust and downright belligerent rejection of Anakin had a hand in this tragedy, to be sure. Despite Anakin's heroic deeds both before and during the Clone Wars, the council treated him as an outsider who was to be shunned. Even when he first arrived on Coruscant as a boy, Anakin's rejection began in earnest after Qui-Gon brought him before the council asking that he be trained as a jedi.

Obi-Wan Kenobi contributed considerably to this fall from grace (although NOT to the extent that HE HIMSELF feels such guilt over as an old man). As a young man, Obi-Wan Kenobi's headstrong arrogance constrantly bred an adverserial relationship with his young protege. The inevitable RAGE and RESENTMENT that this built in Anakin over the years was plainly evident on Mustafar as the two men faced off.

Love him or hate him, Anakin (while suffering from issues of his own) did EVERYTHING he could to be a loyal, decent, trustworthy, friend to young Kenobi: He saved Obi-Wan's life on various occasions both on and off screen, and lost an ARM to Count Dooku for his troubles. From what I could see (mostly throughout Attack of the Clones), all Anakin received from Kenobi for his efforts was constant belittling, scolding, public embarassment and virtually NO regard for the boy's feelings.

Then, or course, there's Chancellor Palpatine. The Sith Lord's contribution to Anakin's fall is indisputable. By cultivating the boy's frustration with his jedi comrades, Sidious's job was fairly easy. This is a no-brainer.

Yep, ALL of these folks had a hand in Anakin's fall from grace and in some measure contributed to his sad embrace of the Dark Side of the Force. All of these folks either, knowingly or not, contributed to the creation of the monster known as Darth Vader.

However, in the end, the FINAL decision was Anakin's. He made the choice, and it was a selfish one. With his sword at Palpatine's throat, Anakin could very well have avoided his own terrible fate by doing the RIGHT THING and ending the Sith Lord's existence right there and then. But he CHOSE not to... just as he CHOSE to sever Mace Windu's arm before he could deliver the killing blow to Palpatine. And it was his CHOICE to obey the Sith Lord when he was ordered to march over to the Jedi temple and murder his comrades.

No, I'm sorry to say that Darth Vader's self-loathing is very well deserved. He ended up living his final decades encased in a prison of black life sustaining armor and leather, all the while KNOWING that he put HIMSELF there.:cry:

Jedi Knight Sheen
09-05-2005, 07:55 AM
Anakin is definately the only one responsible for his downfall. There may have been other factors, but, ultimately, Anakin, and only Anakin has himself to blame. Today we live in a society where we like to blame others for our own mistakes. It's always "Society's fault." Give me a break. Nobody can choose the circumstances they are dealt, but they can choose how that will determine their own destiny. History has proven this time and time again. It's an indisputable fact. The same applies to Anakin. Anakin may have been a little kid who was still attached to his mother, but anything was better than the life he had on Tatooine. Qui-Gon gave him an opportunity to change all that, something nobody else had ever done for Anakin before.

Obi-Wan did the very best he knew how with Anakin, even if he did fail him somehow in Anakin's demented mind. Of course Obi-Wan chided Anakin in public some times, but, that was only because Anakin was publicly defiant. Obi-Wan went out on a limb to take Anakin on as his Padawan since he knew the Council had their misgivings about him until he blew up the control ship. He made it quite clear that Anakin would be trained as a Jedi regardless of what the Council said.

Plus, Obi-Wan was tasked with training "The Chosen One." How else is he supposed to deal with a hyperactive Force user? Ritalin? No, discipline. That's what all mentors do. It's universal.

In the end, though, Anakin just thought about himself and power-not even those for whom he thought he cared about.

Chaddymac
09-05-2005, 02:00 PM
Faith is fine for the individual, but when you use your faith to shape the destiny of others, you end up with The Crusades or Sept 11th. Qui-Gon takes responsibility not just for himself, but for the entire galaxy, ultimately reshaping it into an Empire with the people's defenders destroyed and an entire planet vaporized - is that not the definition of hubris? Overbearing arrogance or presumption, no? Maybe he was right, maybe the prophecy does eventually come true, but does QGJ still not take it upon himself to set up this little kid to become a miserable destroyer of worlds?

Fair enough, but you also end up with Joan of Arc, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, and America's Founding Fathers. I'm not saying faith is unilaterally good or unilaterally bad, just that I think it has some value. With the Crusades and September 11th, you have a group of people doing something that one could generally agree was beholden to corrupted morals. Genocide, the death of innocents--these people were out to destroy others. Even when he went against the wishes of others, Qui-Gon thought he was doing the best thing for them as well. So, even in hindsight, I don't think he was doing anything wrong. He wasn't operating under corrupt morals, he was just maybe misguided... Maybe. Maybe he was wrong, but he felt it was his responsibility to train the chosen one since no one else would. But you have to hand it to him: Anakin was the chosen one--even if Qui-Gon might have misinterpreted the implications, he was right about that. And maybe if the Jedi Council had embraced his gifts more openly, Anakin wouldn't have turned against them so quickly. Huh...maybe I blame the Jedi Council...

stillakid
09-05-2005, 08:12 PM
Stilla, I don't get you, you agree that if we take the OT only into account it's Kenobi's fault because he arrogantly chose to train Anakin and Palpatine was able to exploit this failure, YET by your logic if we take the prequels into account then when Qui-Gon is the one who arrogantly chose to train Anakin, then palmed this off on the unready Obi-Wan, and this was exploited by Palpatine, it's somehow Anakin's fault? I don't follow that at all.

Your confusion is coming in because you are combining the logic of the two arguments when in fact the things I've said (as well as what others have said) is that these are mutually exclusive trilogies.

Point being, as Ji'dai so eloquently explained, if we look at the OT in a vacuum, then Obi Wan is at fault for all the reasons Ji'dai spoke about. I don't wish to repeat it, so I'd ask to refer you back to that wonderfully written post. :)

If we look at the PT in a vacuum, then Anakin is clearly to blame for his own problems. Nobody "failed" him. He made several conscious choices knowing full well which side was right and which side was wrong. Even if one wanted to argue semantics on most of it, the decision to lop off Mace's arm is evidence enough of his conscious choice to go bad. He knew better and he knew what he was doing every step of the way toward badness even as his teachers and wife tried in vain to teach that little punk a lesson. But he was like a modern day rap star...some loser who just happened to have some "talent" that could be exploited at too young of an age. So his emotional development was arrested and he lived out his days looking like a mature adult when really his entire being was guided by the smooth hand of a 5 year old adolescent. You could look at that scenario and blame Qui Gon for it, except that we know that Anakin wasn't just reacting to circumstances...rather he knew full well what he was doing when he joined the darkside, therefore the fault lies entirely with him when you look at the PT in a vacuum.


In the third scenario, if you try to view the trilogies as one linear and connected story, most of the logic falls apart instantaneously making the process of drawing conclusions nearly impossible. In this instance however, in my opinion, if we were to consider all the events as seen in the PT and couple them with Old Ben's explanations in the OT, we would have absolutely no recourse but to suggest that Old Ben was not only lying outright about nearly everything ever said, but that Old Ben was also suffering from a deep bout of self-inflicted victim's syndrome believing that he was the cause of the galaxy's tragedy when in fact, he wasn't at all. More than that, Obi Wan was the only guy in the PT who saw the train wreck that was coming and tried in earnest to stop it. Everyone else around him ignored the cries for help and let it all happen. Anakin is still at fault and will be anytime the PT is brought into the discussion.

2-1B
09-05-2005, 08:39 PM
More than that, Obi Wan was the only guy in the PT who saw the train wreck that was coming and tried in earnest to stop it.

I somewhat disagree.

While Ben did act like that sometimes before ROTS, by the time we get to the third installment he is questioning M&Y asking "is he not the Chosen One?" showing that he had bought into the prophetic line of thinking.

What's more, Obi-Wan stands there and says something like "Anakin won't fail me. He never has" and counted on Anakin to handle the dicey role of Double Agent even when Ben didn't want to put him in that position.

So when Ben later tells Vader, "I have failed you, Anakin, I have failed you" I think he's right but in this capacity:
Obi-Wan went along with the Council's plan of using Anakin to spy on Palps when Ben wasn't in favor of it in the first place. So yeah, Obi-Wan let Anakin alone to the Wolf (his friend Palpatine) and failed him in that respect. Of course, I'm not blaming Ben for the outcome of the saga because I still blame Anakin . . . (and Palpatine) . . . but Ben could have helped his friend out more.

:)

stillakid
09-05-2005, 09:25 PM
I somewhat disagree.

While Ben did act like that sometimes before ROTS, by the time we get to the third installment he is questioning M&Y asking "is he not the Chosen One?" showing that he had bought into the prophetic line of thinking.

What's more, Obi-Wan stands there and says something like "Anakin won't fail me. He never has" and counted on Anakin to handle the dicey role of Double Agent even when Ben didn't want to put him in that position.

So when Ben later tells Vader, "I have failed you, Anakin, I have failed you" I think he's right but in this capacity:
Obi-Wan went along with the Council's plan of using Anakin to spy on Palps when Ben wasn't in favor of it in the first place. So yeah, Obi-Wan let Anakin alone to the Wolf (his friend Palpatine) and failed him in that respect. Of course, I'm not blaming Ben for the outcome of the saga because I still blame Anakin . . . (and Palpatine) . . . but Ben could have helped his friend out more.

:)

Sure. And this is what I meant when I said that certainly all of us have countless influences in our lives who either help or hinder our "progress" (whatever that means individually). But ultimately, we are all responsible for our own actions. And more so when we consciously recognize the inherent difference between "right" and "wrong" in any given circumstance. Anakin knew that running back to Palps' office was the wrong thing to do but he did it anyway. He knew that he shouldn't stop Mace, but he did it anyway. He sat there on his knees whining "What have I done!?" indicating his full awareness of his actions and the reprecussions. Anakin is fully at fault for his own fall to the darkside when we look solely at the Prequels.

Perhaps it is easier to understand if the opposite (and better) scenario were to take place in regard to how Anakin should have become Darth Vader. Suppose for a second that a young-ish Anakin, already a great pilot with Force potential, was taken on by a young-ish and slightly full of himself Jedi named Obi Wan Kenobi. Anakin begins his training with the full intention of following the company line. However during the midst of his training (at a point similar to when Luke was on Dagobah and left), this Anakin fellow began to believe an alternative view of the political spectrum. Think along the lines of an Earthly Marine perhaps, who only wanted to be a soldier (because he bought into the clever "Go America" marketing) and along the way realized that he didn't agree with the politics he was supposed to be serving. I'm not suggesting that he is coerced or seduced into believing the "rebellious" way of thinking, but rather that his intentions were honest, but just so happened to run against the grain.

So here we'd have a half-trained Jedi whose Master isn't quite as up to the task as he thought he might be. Anakin is "taught" this alternative political point of view by a politician named Palpatine who needs some young muscle for his purposes. Palps "molds" Anakin's maliable thinking to match his own "twisted" view of how the Republic should be run and suddenly Obi Wan has lost his student.

In this scenario, Obi Wan wasn't up to the task of properly recognizing the potential problems and dealing with them accordingly. And we also have a young apprentice who is a blank slate, ready to follow the first influence who really can lay it on thick. Obers couldn't do that. Palps could and he wins the day. That's an example of seduction on Palps' part and an example of how Master Obi Wan could have "lost" his pupil to "evil." And in this case, our student is neither aimlessly angry not bipolar in his angst. His reason for "joining" the Jedi are just as are his reasons for believing Palpatine's version of politics. This scenario would provide the proper foundation for the Darth Vader we eventually see roaming around in the Original Trilogy.

On the contrary, the bipolar nonsensical rantings that Hayd-akin spews throughout the PT hardly qualify as being "Vader-esque." The attitudes and modus operandi of both are uniquely different. This is why I suggest that making a one-to-one comparison/conclusion statement that connects the PT and the OT is nearly impossible without creating a buttload of contradictions and stopgap measures.

2-1B
09-05-2005, 10:16 PM
Right, except that I was dealing with what we DID get from the prequels, directly in response to your comments on the Obi-Wan that we did get . . . and the above post really has nothing to do with that, I'm afraid. More of a wishful thinking of what you would RATHER have gotten in the prequels, whereas I am trying to discuss what we DID get. :)

Anakin wasn't whining when he said "what have I done?"

And yes there is that element of ideological differences, for example when Obi-Wan laments that Palpatine is being given more executive powers. He's clearly not in favor of that, yet Anakin sees it completely different, as a way to end the conflict even sooner. Huh, go figure, just like Vader says to Luke in ESB. ;)

JediTricks
09-06-2005, 02:28 AM
Fair enough, but you also end up with Joan of Arc, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, and America's Founding Fathers. I'm not saying faith is unilaterally good or unilaterally bad, just that I think it has some value. With the Crusades and September 11th, you have a group of people doing something that one could generally agree was beholden to corrupted morals. Genocide, the death of innocents--these people were out to destroy others. Even when he went against the wishes of others, Qui-Gon thought he was doing the best thing for them as well. So, even in hindsight, I don't think he was doing anything wrong. He wasn't operating under corrupt morals, he was just maybe misguided... Maybe. Maybe he was wrong, but he felt it was his responsibility to train the chosen one since no one else would. But you have to hand it to him: Anakin was the chosen one--even if Qui-Gon might have misinterpreted the implications, he was right about that. Who did Mother Theresa ever take responsibility for but herself? She channelled her faith to help the suffering peoples of the world. As for Ghandi, he led by example to use nonviolent means to resist unjust laws, organizing other likeminded peoples. The Founding Fathers set out to create a new system of government, setting up a framework of ideals to which the states themselves were then asked to agree with or not - the states were involved in the process and were given the right to choose - and those states then ended up having to send delegates to the Constitutional Convention to repair the failing new government, representing the will of the people (well, ok, that's a bit of a stretch, but they weren't as unilaterally-acting as Qui-Gon was, not even remotely). Joan of Arc heard voices in her head which led her to take stand against the British control of the French monarchy, eventually being given military forces which she led to victories against the British and installation of a new French crown, then was captured and martyred -- I would say hers is the closest analogy to Qui-Gon Jinn, but the difference is that Joan actually was promoting an ideal her own people wanted, and was examined by theologians to ensure some level of soundness to her claims, while Qui-Gon was not promoting his people's will nor did he pass the examination of his claims by the heads of his order and yet he took on Anakin .



And maybe if the Jedi Council had embraced his gifts more openly, Anakin wouldn't have turned against them so quickly. Huh...maybe I blame the Jedi Council...Ah ha!!! See, it's not so easy to just pin it on Anakin! :D



Your confusion is coming in because you are combining the logic of the two arguments when in fact the things I've said (as well as what others have said) is that these are mutually exclusive trilogies.But ultimately they are presented the same general points, just with 1 different player at the beginning.


But he was like a modern day rap star...some loser who just happened to have some "talent" that could be exploited at too young of an age. Someone put that young, ignorant rap star in a position to be exploited originally though, the music business doesn't generally allow outsiders to move into the main ranks without some sort of promotion and management, some mover and shaker put the kid into a position where drug dealers and con artists and floozies could exploit his talent.


You could look at that scenario and blame Qui Gon for it, except that we know that Anakin wasn't just reacting to circumstances...rather he knew full well what he was doing when he joined the darkside, therefore the fault lies entirely with him when you look at the PT in a vacuum. But his foundation for making those decisions was flawed, damaged, cracked, and who laid that foundation? He knew Palpatine was bad, but he knew saving his wife was more important, but as Yoda points out the foundation of that decision stems from his innate fear of loss and where did that come from? Not some vague lifetime of small things, 1 large and self-appointed act by Qui-Gon Jinn.



by the time we get to the third installment he is questioning M&Y asking "is he not the Chosen One?" showing that he had bought into the prophetic line of thinking. I was not happy with how ROTS did that, in Eps 1 and 2, Obi-Wan is shown to question the issue and then question the wisdom, knowing and saying that Anakin was to be a real problem, yet Qui-Gon's drive shuts down the Padawan Kenobi in Ep 1 and the councilmembers shut down his concerns in Ep 2. So when Ep 3 rolls around and shifts Obi-Wan's faith so completely, we are not given an adequate reason and it seems outside the character.

seanmcfripp
09-09-2005, 02:19 PM
Perhaps it is easier to understand if the opposite (and better) scenario were to take place in regard to how Anakin should have become Darth Vader. Suppose for a second that a young-ish Anakin, already a great pilot with Force potential, was taken on by a young-ish and slightly full of himself Jedi named Obi Wan Kenobi. Anakin begins his training with the full intention of following the company line. However during the midst of his training (at a point similar to when Luke was on Dagobah and left), this Anakin fellow began to believe an alternative view of the political spectrum. Think along the lines of an Earthly Marine perhaps, who only wanted to be a soldier (because he bought into the clever "Go America" marketing) and along the way realized that he didn't agree with the politics he was supposed to be serving. I'm not suggesting that he is coerced or seduced into believing the "rebellious" way of thinking, but rather that his intentions were honest, but just so happened to run against the grain.

So here we'd have a half-trained Jedi whose Master isn't quite as up to the task as he thought he might be. Anakin is "taught" this alternative political point of view by a politician named Palpatine who needs some young muscle for his purposes. Palps "molds" Anakin's maliable thinking to match his own "twisted" view of how the Republic should be run and suddenly Obi Wan has lost his student.

In this scenario, Obi Wan wasn't up to the task of properly recognizing the potential problems and dealing with them accordingly. And we also have a young apprentice who is a blank slate, ready to follow the first influence who really can lay it on thick. Obers couldn't do that. Palps could and he wins the day. That's an example of seduction on Palps' part and an example of how Master Obi Wan could have "lost" his pupil to "evil." And in this case, our student is neither aimlessly angry not bipolar in his angst. His reason for "joining" the Jedi are just as are his reasons for believing Palpatine's version of politics. This scenario would provide the proper foundation for the Darth Vader we eventually see roaming around in the Original Trilogy.

On the contrary, the bipolar nonsensical rantings that Hayd-akin spews throughout the PT hardly qualify as being "Vader-esque." The attitudes and modus operandi of both are uniquely different. This is why I suggest that making a one-to-one comparison/conclusion statement that connects the PT and the OT is nearly impossible without creating a buttload of contradictions and stopgap measures.

Absolutely how it should have been...and the saddest part is that Lucas was probably closer to getting it right than most of us are willing to give him credit for. Looking, through his eyes, at the PT in the vague, primordial concept stages, you can see the sprinklings of Stilla's wonderful idea for a basis of the character in the movies: Palpatine's influence on Anakin (politically)...Anakin's power and influence as a warrior in time of war and political upheaval...Obi-wan as an over-confident and all-too-eager would-be mentor. It's just that with these new movies, Lucas never had anybody to help him trim the fat and focus on these stronger elements. For some reason, Lucas just had to force that love story in there. He just had to have that immaculate conception. And man, oh man, he just HAD to show us Ani as a little boy. I mean, how on earth are we ever to feel sorry for poor wittle Ani if we don't see him as an innocent wittle boy?Please, we're not idiots. We can recognize a tragic figure without seeing him as a "selfles" little boy. Enduring Jake Lloyd for 2 hours doesn't make Vader any more compelling of a character, and in fact, just makes things more confusing. I like to think a Larry Kasden (or some equivalent modern day counterpart) could have reigned 'ol Georgy in on some of those bad ideas. "George, this 'Ani has no father' thing is really weak and we can't do a thing with it. Let's just skip it and move on to the real meat of the story and develop that."

He nailed Luke's character pretty well, so it's almost baffling that he botched Anakin so badly. I mean, the character model for Anakin was right there in front of him, and he missed the boat so completely. Think about this for a moment: imagine if Luke had made a different choice, and decided to kill his father and joined the emporer...it would have been like putting a knife in the heart of every SW fan out there. Imagine how tragic that would have been (if handled properly). In other words, with a little tweaking of the characters motivations, think of how well Luke would have worked as a tragic figure in another story? We really like the guy. We see so much of ourselves in the guy. We identifywith Luke, so to see him fall and make the wrong choice would have been gut wrenchingly beautiful to watch. How hard would it have been to create Anakin along those lines? Same character arc (up to a certain point), slightly different flavor to the story, different political environment, add water, stir, bake on 350 for 35 minutes, let cool...WHAM, you got yourself a pretty decent Anakin Skywalker. Or at the very least, better than what we got now.

As far as assigning blame for Anakin's fall...I could care less. I could give less than a flying, rusty f about the guy. Lucas hasn't given me a single reason to like him. And quite frankly, he hasn't given me a reason to like any of the people around him either, so I really don't care if they're at fault or not. They can all fall from grace as far as I'm concerned. His biggest problem is that none of them ever really has any grace from which to fall in the first place. I guess I blame Lucas for Anakin's fall, seeing as how he's the one with the pen when this thing was written. I'm reminded of Harrison Ford's comments from the Empire of Dreams doc on the OT DVD bonus disk, and if asked to comment on this situation, I could imagine him doing a George Lucas impression:

Anakin is falls from grace. See? I wrote it right here. Just do that, just do what I wrote. He falls from grace because I say he falls from grace.

Of course we're all left with the aftermath of trying to figure out just exactly what that means. How does a character, who is pretty darned unlikable at all stages in his life (including when he's a little boy) fall from grace? When did he ever get to grace to begin with?

2-1B
09-10-2005, 01:02 AM
It's not immaculate conception, that would actually refer to Shmi because in religious lore the IC refers to Mary's conception without sin and not the conception of Jesus or Anakin without a father. :)

JediTricks
09-10-2005, 01:55 AM
It's just that with these new movies, Lucas never had anybody to help him trim the fat and focus on these stronger elements. Also, another element Lucas didn't have going in is a whole cohesive outline for the whole prequel trilogy with an accompanying backstory to help flesh things out in a more global stage, the way he did with the originals. I've been saying since May of '99 that I felt one of TPM's biggest frustrations for me was that there really didn't feel like a sense of Galactic history to me which took away from the richness that the originals had.


I like to think a Larry Kasden (or some equivalent modern day counterpart) could have reigned 'ol Georgy in on some of those bad ideas.A lot of folks on the forums that think higher of the OT than the prequels, such as myself, tend to point to Gary Kurtz as the missing ingredient. Kurtz was more than just a "get that job done" producer, he was basically a partner and reined in a lot of the original Star Wars' more outlandish stuff. Plus, Kurtz only produced ANH and ESB, not ROTJ which is largely considered the inferior OT film (Lawrence Kasdan did the screenplays for ESB and ROTJ, though I gather he was hampered by some of Lucas' predetermined situations, as well as Lucas using the story's ending already - the Death Star battle in ROTJ was supposed to be the only 1 when the OT was all 1 film).


"George, this 'Ani has no father' thing is really weak and we can't do a thing with it. Let's just skip it and move on to the real meat of the story and develop that."One thing I discovered when I read the TPM Illustrated Screenplay was that Shmi's line of "there was no father" actually was sold less definitive because it ended "there was no father, that I know of". One little half of a sentence might have made a big difference IMO, and on that line Lucas might have been able to have his cake and eat it too.

stillakid
09-10-2005, 06:43 AM
One thing I discovered when I read the TPM Illustrated Screenplay was that Shmi's line of "there was no father" actually was sold less definitive because it ended "there was no father, that I know of". One little half of a sentence might have made a big difference IMO, and on that line Lucas might have been able to have his cake and eat it too.

Funny, that. While I can see where you're coming from, this alternative doesn't paint her in a very nice light anyway. What, did she have her partying days where Rufies :sleeping: were plentiful? :lipsrseal What a sl-uh-t she must've been in her day. "Get back here, bi**h!" :whip: "for a little :love: "

JediTricks
09-11-2005, 06:37 PM
My theory was that as a slave she might have been made to do things she wasn't proud of, or like you said perhaps she was even drugged to forget.