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darth cynik
08-29-2005, 07:07 PM
Does it bug the crap out of anyone else that the armor Darth Vader wore in ROTS looks nothing like the armor he wore in ANH!?

The armor he's rebuilt with by the med droids is a lot more like the redesigned armor that Vader was encased in for ESB and ROTJ, with no similarites to what he wore the first time we ever saw him. In Ep III, the kint ribbing on the gloves is wrong, the helmet is bigger, the eyes are not dark tinted brown, the quilted pattern of the suit is totally different, and , and most annoyingly, the under cape does not go over the shoulder armor... the ROTS armor is .

I realize that the armor he wore in ANH is not nearly as streamlined or even as imposing as the ultra shiny armor from the latter two movies, but c'mon, for the sake of the contnuity, it's just stupid to have him wearing the later armor first. It's bugged me since I saw the first promotional pictures, it bigged me when I finally saw the movie, and after these months, I cannot see past it. No, it doesn't dampen my opinion of ROTS as a movie, but it certainly does annoy me to no end that details like that were overlooked or ignored. In fact, I think the armor issue might bug me more now than it did before: there's no reason why the armor first put on Darth Vader for his new lease on life couldn't have been the same as that he wore the first time we saw him!

The nitpicker in me doesn't come too often for the movies, I had to vent this finally. Anyone else annoyed by it!?

bobafrett
08-29-2005, 07:16 PM
The way I look at it, it is what around 20 years from ROTS, to ANH. He probably has alterations made from battles he has in those 20 years. Another thing is, when ANH was made Lucas only had so much money to spend, once that became the success it did, he had money to improve the suit. I mean look at the evolution the clone to Stormtrooper armor goes through in that time. Shhh, the next thing you know Lucas will digitally enhance Vaders ANH armor.

That or George wants to sell more Vader figures, statues, and posters.

I really don't pay much attention to the whole Vader costume differences.

Slicker
08-29-2005, 07:30 PM
The way I look at it, it is what around 20 years from ROTS, to ANH. That's exactly it. Maybe he made alterations to it and ended up with the armor he had in ANH and after his fight with Obers he may have found some things wrong with it and improved upon them so that by the time ESB came around the armor was better suited to his fighting needs.

shammykenobi
08-29-2005, 08:44 PM
has it ever occured to anyone that maybe he has a few differnt suits lying around??? I mean even though he's partly machine, the human parts of him have to get all hot and sweaty in that suit...he probably needs a change of clothes every now and again!!!! Maybe the shiny "esb and rotj" suits were in the laundry on the day that he captured the tantive iv!!!

Rocketboy
08-29-2005, 08:59 PM
Does it bug the crap out of anyone else that the armor Darth Vader wore in ROTS looks nothing like the armor he wore in ANH!? Nope. Like the others said, twenty years pass between movies.

the eyes are not dark tinted brownBrown? I thought they were red...

2-1B
08-29-2005, 10:38 PM
I never noticed the differences. Meh.

JimJamBonds
08-30-2005, 12:13 AM
I never really noticed, however in the 'Making of Vader' bit on the bonus disk for the OT they say that the mask is different compared to what it was in the OT. Personally its not a big deal. As it has been said before its about 20 yrs so there are going to be somethings that change in that time.

seanmcfripp
08-31-2005, 03:53 PM
I'm annoyed that they decided to make the shoulder armor part of the chest armor...it's one continuous piece. It really stands out when Vader is on the bridge of the Star Destroyer with Palps and death mask Tarkin and he folds his arms across his chest The whole thing moves up around his neck awkwardly because there's no mobility.

You can also see it in most of the promotional stills for ROTS where Vader is holding a lightsaber. Hayden has to keep his upper arms parallel to his body because the shoulder/chest armor keeps him from raising his arms out in front.

What on earth were the costume wiz's thinking?

Exhaust Port
08-31-2005, 07:35 PM
Some where there is a rather large thread about this that we had when the first images of DV were released.

JimJamBonds
08-31-2005, 09:35 PM
I'm annoyed that they decided to make the shoulder armor part of the chest armor...it's one continuous piece. It really stands out when Vader is on the bridge of the Star Destroyer with Palps and death mask Tarkin and he folds his arms across his chest The whole thing moves up around his neck awkwardly because there's no mobility.

You can also see it in most of the promotional stills for ROTS where Vader is holding a lightsaber. Hayden has to keep his upper arms parallel to his body because the shoulder/chest armor keeps him from raising his arms out in front.

What on earth were the costume wiz's thinking?

Part of the evolution of Vader from his initial moment to the Vader we all know and love 20ish yrs later. Its what we know as Vader but there are some differences, can't we change some over all that time? ;)

stillakid
08-31-2005, 10:00 PM
Part of the evolution of Vader from his initial moment to the Vader we all know and love 20ish yrs later. Its what we know as Vader but there are some differences, can't we change some over all that time? ;)

Yes, but the point is that one doesn't generally go from "good" to "worse" and then back to "good." The ROTS armor is more similar to ROTJ armor than it is to ANH armor which makes no linear story sense at all. It'd be like having Anakin driving a 2005 Mustang in ROTS, then driving one from the 1960's in ANH and progressing back to the 2005 for ROTJ. Completely ludicrous. :hurt:

2-1B
08-31-2005, 11:16 PM
I'm bothered by the continuity glitches in hairstyles, that's the kind of stuff I notice. I've said it before and I will repeat it here as my biggest example: Obi-Wan's real beard in AOTC vs. his fake beard (and the rest of his hair, too).

Obi-Wan also has some issues with reshot hair in TPM as well. ROTS is pretty good in this regard, MUCH MUCH better than the previous preeks. About all I noticed so far is one shot where Anakin's reshot hair wig looks off but nothing like what I found in the previous installments.

JimJamBonds
09-01-2005, 09:37 AM
Yes, but the point is that one doesn't generally go from "good" to "worse" and then back to "good." The ROTS armor is more similar to ROTJ armor than it is to ANH armor which makes no linear story sense at all. It'd be like having Anakin driving a 2005 Mustang in ROTS, then driving one from the 1960's in ANH and progressing back to the 2005 for ROTJ. Completely ludicrous. :hurt:

What you never heard of a show called 'The Dukes of Hazzard?', it went from good (Bo and Luke) to worse (Koy and Vance) back to good (Bo and Luke) so it does happen from time to time. ;) (note: tounge planted firmly in cheek)

stillakid
09-01-2005, 10:05 AM
I'm bothered by the continuity glitches in hairstyles, .

Changes in costumes are the exact same thing. In this case, the changes in Vader's mask and costume are a progression when seen from ANH to ROTJ. But when you add in the ROTS version, the linear progression becomes a "glitch" as you describe hairstyles above. Hair, makeup, wardrobe...heck, even attributes like accents, moods, or attitudes are all examples of elements that need to remain continuitous in a fictional environment. Bouncing back and forth like a jumping bean without direction threatens to take the viewer out of the story.

JimJamBonds
09-01-2005, 10:10 AM
The one thing I ALWAYS notice is that during the space battle Obi-Wan's microphone goes from in front of his mouth to below his chin. It goes like that back and forth 6+ times. It always bugs the heck out of me.

2-1B
09-01-2005, 12:28 PM
I still haven't noticed the headphone piece.

stillakid, I absolutely agree with you on the principle of these continuity changes, it's just that for me personally the Vader stuff doesn't bother me even 1% as much as the hair stuff. I guess it just comes down to what I notice when I watch the films.

But on the topic of Vader, you know what bugs me during ROTS is right before his mask goes on, we see him staring at it a little of to the side and there is NO big neck piece around him, then suddenly it's there as they are dropping the mask down.
I don't know if we are to suppose that it was put there offscreen in between or what, but it still bugs me because it doesn't feel like there is room in the sequence of time for it to happen. Some poor editing or CG work on that shot.

Slicker
09-01-2005, 06:55 PM
But on the topic of Vader, you know what bugs me during ROTS is right before his mask goes on, we see him staring at it a little of to the side and there is NO big neck piece around him, then suddenly it's there as they are dropping the mask down.I thought it was just me that noticed that. I'll see if I can get some screen caps of it.


EDIT: It's not the best copy of ROTS but at least I've got one.:razz:

JimJamBonds
09-01-2005, 11:45 PM
Wow I never noticed that one that is pretty bad, good call Caesar and Slick. :thumbsup:

2-1B
09-01-2005, 11:58 PM
That's exactly what I was talkin' 'bout, Slicker. :(

JimJamBonds
09-02-2005, 12:02 AM
That's exactly what I was talkin' 'bout, Slicker. :(

And you never bothered to tell me about that sooner why? :twisted:

Elliejabbapop
09-02-2005, 04:37 PM
When Vader first appears in ANH his helmet looks "shorter".... nobody ever complained about that.

seanmcfripp
09-02-2005, 05:30 PM
Part of the evolution of Vader from his initial moment to the Vader we all know and love 20ish yrs later. Its what we know as Vader but there are some differences, can't we change some over all that time? ;)

I don't think the differences are meant to be differences at all, and that's what's so frustrating. I think Lucas said to the production folks something like "I want Vader to look just like he did in the OT". I think they slapped together what we saw in ROTS based off of whatever reference material they had, and Lucas was probably fine with it. If we were able to ask the cotumier about the shoulder bells/chest armour being one piece, they'd probably say "What? You mean it wasn't one piece on the original PT costume?"

In other words, the people assigned to work on these films aren't necessarily fans like us that have marinated in these movies for the past 20 some odd years. Neither is Lucas, for that matter. Remember, this is the guy who in the ESB DVD commentary uttered Lando's last name as "Clair-issian " as opposed to Calrissian. We like to think that the entire Star Wars universe exists perfectly in Lucas's head, right down to every little detail, when in fact, it doesn't at all. Lucas probably just has a very "high level" understanding of "his" Star Wars: story arc, characterization, ties to mythology, etc. Stuff like Vader's costume and Lando's last name just aren't as important to him as it is to us.

The sad thing is that there may actually be a reason for the shoulder/chest armor thing. Maybe someone thought they were saving money by having it be one peice. Maybe it helped give Hayden the appearence of being bigger in the chest. Or maybe (and more likely), they guy who was supposed to construct that part of the costume honestly didn't know they should have been separate pieces. He probably thought he did a pretty good job, when in fact, for reasons already explained in this thread, he didn't.

While I tend to be one of the folks who agrees that we didn't need to see "black suit" Vader in ROTS, I will admit that the big reveal scene at the end should have been a total thrill for the fanboys. Now I won't discuss the actual scene for it's writing and acting faults (totally separate issue and many other threads already written), but I will say how I was completely taken out of the movie just by the way the costume looked. As soon as Vader was moved upright, I just kept getting distracted by "Wow. That looks like Hayden in suit that doesn't fit". It should NOT have been that way. How hard can it be to replicate the original costume? I mean really, how hard could that have been!? How hard would it have been to cast a person with David Prowse's or Bob Anderson's build? It's not like any of the suited Vader's scenes required much movement, so they didn't need anyone with exceptional mobility...just a tall guy with a muscular build. It was just flat out dumb that Hayden be the guy in the suit. I guess I remember Lucas saying he did it as a favor to Hayden, since he really wanted to be the one to wear the suit, but again, it just shows that Lucas isn't concerned with details. He probably thinks "Hey, it looks like Darth Vader, and it is a Star Wars movie, so what's the big deal?" He'd probably tell us we're all idiots for even having this discussion. I'd certainly tell him otherwise.

And I know people want to always apologize for the storytellers and film-makers and use the "It's just a stupid costume. Who cares if little things are off? Why can't Vader have changed his costume over 20 years" and blah blah blah. Vader should have looked very close to his ANH counterpart, plain and simple: off-colored goggles, tunic/robe over the chest armor, correct ribbing and piping on the gloves, etc. Or, if Lucas wanted something different, then he should have gone all out and had Vader's suit look like a prototype Vader and done something totally new. Maybe Anakin would just have had a black protective leather suit and a breathing apparatus that kind of looked like the Vader mask we all know and love (but enough to recognize it as Vader's face), all covered in a black cloak...a more utilitarian type of suit with medical sensibilities. I think that would have been a lot cooler. And I know it's been discussed before, but that would have left Vader's big entrance and reveal at the beginning of ANH intact. Anyone watching the movies in order would be able to make the connection, if done correctly. The progression of suits as it is now makes no sense whatsoever.

Didn't Lucas also do this with Yoda in TPM? I mean, who in their right mind would have signed off on that horrible Yoda puppet? Someone like Lucas I guess. Someone who can't be bothered with little details..."oh, he's little and green, and Frank is performing, so hey, it must be Yoda. No one will even question it." And then when you do question it, you catch flak from all the Star Wars cultists "Well Yoda was younger, so why wouldn't he look different? You just need to trust in Lucas, and all will be right with the world."

I don't want to find faults in Star Wars. But I won't ignore them when I do. Some are just incidental. Others come out of carelesness, and those are the ones I hate. Until I hear otherwise, I'm chalking up the ROTS Vader suit as a careless oversite by a film maker who couldn't be bothered.

stillakid
09-02-2005, 06:09 PM
When Vader first appears in ANH his helmet looks "shorter".... nobody ever complained about that.


:confused: Shorter than what? ANH established the baseline for continuity. It was impossible for anything in ANH to be different from any other episode. It would be proper to say something like, "when Vader first appears in ESB his helmet looks ____er" because it is in comparison to the established continuity. Nobody ever "complains" about the ANH Vader being ____er because it was the first.

:confused:

JimJamBonds
09-02-2005, 11:31 PM
I don't think the differences are meant to be differences at all, and that's what's so frustrating. I think Lucas said to the production folks something like "I want Vader to look just like he did in the OT". I think they slapped together what we saw in ROTS based off of whatever reference material they had, and Lucas was probably fine with it. If we were able to ask the cotumier about the shoulder bells/chest armour being one piece, they'd probably say "What? You mean it wasn't one piece on the original PT costume?"

In other words, the people assigned to work on these films aren't necessarily fans like us that have marinated in these movies for the past 20 some odd years. Neither is Lucas, for that matter. Remember, this is the guy who in the ESB DVD commentary uttered Lando's last name as "Clair-issian " as opposed to Calrissian.

If you watch the short clip on E III that appears on the OT DVD Bonus disk there is a comment that the Darth Vader helmet is different then that which appears in the OT (sorry I don't remember the comment off hand but it is mentioned). So in that case it WAS a known difference to Lucas I'm not sure but it was to the prop department. From what I have seen Lucas seems to be aware of what happened before and kept that in mind. Granted there were some goofs but also remember that we on this board along w/ TONS of others are picking these movies apart with extremely fine tooth combs.

As far as the Lando last name thing goes... MEH! Kinda like one person saying 'Leia' vs. another saying 'Laya.'

JediTricks
09-03-2005, 03:21 AM
There are several things about the ROTS armor that bugged me, the shorter "skirt" part of the helmet and the pitch black eyes, the chest box being part of the chest padding instead of having straps, little nitpicky stuff. I hadn't noticed the shoulder/collar armor thing before but I did feel like something was off and I couldn't put my finger on it, same with the missing lower face mask thing when he's getting Vaderized near the end.

However, I believe Lucasfilm is like crazy insane for keeping track of these little details, and makes changes intentionally for various reasons - storytelling, feasibility, comfort, etc. - some of which we're not supposed to notice. They knew Obi-Wan's Ep 1 saber was smaller, stainless instead of chrome, and had slightly different details from the Ep 2 saber but they went ahead anyway, probably thinking we weren't supposed to notice.

Elliejabbapop
09-03-2005, 12:18 PM
:confused: Shorter than what? ANH established the baseline for continuity. It was impossible for anything in ANH to be different from any other episode. It would be proper to say something like, "when Vader first appears in ESB his helmet looks ____er" because it is in comparison to the established continuity. Nobody ever "complains" about the ANH Vader being ____er because it was the first.

:confused:

I never said it was "shorter in ANH", I said "when he first appears in ANH".
In case you haven't noticed when Vader walks into the hall of the Tantive IV his looks different than in the other scenes of the same movie. I didn't get very good closeups but it should do. Don't tell me he's just bending his head forward because we all know Vader's helmet doesn't have that kind of mobility forward-wise or backwords for that matter, he only has it sideways.
It's a tiny detail but one that I've always wondered about, no need to get upset and become hysterical. :p

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-03-2005, 12:33 PM
I don't really mind the changes in the armor. I mean, he changes it from ANH to ESB, so why shouldn't he change it from ROTS to ANH? Anakin always liked to tinker with everything he could get his hands on, we always knew that (special TIE Fighter, podracer, etc.). The only one I really noticed was that his shoulder armor was over his cape, not under, but for Christ's sake, it's not like he couldn't move it around a little bit!

Anyway, as far as the reconstruction scene, I noticed last time that when he gets his helmet on, he also doesn't have his right hand's glove on, for some odd reason. But then when he comes off, he does, obviously. It's also like the chin piece, I mean, they could've done it off-screen but I don't know when.

Elliejabbapop
09-03-2005, 12:38 PM
they could've done it off-screen

That's very true and it's a concept many people can't understand :tired:

Rocketboy
09-03-2005, 03:16 PM
Heck, if it weren't for the internet, I never would have even known the Vader suits differed in any way.
I still can't tell them apart.

bobafrett
09-03-2005, 10:51 PM
I agree, I have never paid a whole lot of attention to the differences in Vaders armor. I did notice some changes in the ANH Stormtrooper armor over TESB Stormtrooper armor. I just figured it was because Lucas had more money, and could afford to make a better suit of armor.

stillakid
09-04-2005, 12:43 AM
Heck, if it weren't for the internet, I never would have even known the Vader suits differed in any way.
I still can't tell them apart.
Then you aren't paying attention to detail, which is frequently why people genuinely love the Prequels...not really paying attention. The differences, particularly in the masks, are very obvious.

stillakid
09-04-2005, 12:46 AM
I never said it was "shorter in ANH", I said "when he first appears in ANH".
In case you haven't noticed when Vader walks into the hall of the Tantive IV his looks different than in the other scenes of the same movie. I didn't get very good closeups but it should do. Don't tell me he's just bending his head forward because we all know Vader's helmet doesn't have that kind of mobility forward-wise or backwords for that matter, he only has it sideways.
It's a tiny detail but one that I've always wondered about, no need to get upset and become hysterical. :p

First, who is getting hysterical? :confused: :rolleyes:

Second, you indeed said "when he first appears in ANH" and proceeded to make the comparison between that moment and .... well, nothing in particular. The point I was making was that the moment when he first appears is the benchmark. That you're altering your story now and changing the meaning of your original post isn't my fault.

2-1B
09-04-2005, 01:21 AM
Then you aren't paying attention to detail, which is frequently why people genuinely love the Prequels...not really paying attention. The differences, particularly in the masks, are very obvious.

That wasn't necessary.

Elliejabbapop
09-04-2005, 04:42 AM
First, who is getting hysterical? :confused: :rolleyes:

Oh my :rolleyes: :tired:
I don't think I'm the only one who's noticed ;) .


The point I was making was that the moment when he first appears is the benchmark.That you're altering your story now and changing the meaning of your original post isn't my fault.

Actually, it was your own assumption to give it a different meaning than the one
I had thought about. It is possible to inquire without making assumptions if you can't understand something.
It was your own, silly fault. Full stop.

stillakid
09-04-2005, 08:03 AM
That wasn't necessary.

What is? (besides food, water, shelter) :)

stillakid
09-04-2005, 08:07 AM
Oh my :rolleyes: :tired:
I don't think I'm the only one who's noticed ;) .

I think it's appropriate to suggest that some people should stop being delusional. :rolleyes: If you think that anything you say here would make me hysterical, you've got delusions of grandeur. :thumbsup: But I say go for it if it makes you feel better.


Actually, it was your own assumption to give it a different meaning than the one
I had thought about. It is possible to inquire without making assumptions if you can't understand something.
It was your own, silly fault. Full stop.
It was your own fault for not being crystal clear in your intention. The receiver of the information can't be at fault if the sender didn't express themselves properly. I understood your initial message perfectly and responded to it. That you chose to alter the original meaning afterward isn't my problem.

Return to your hysterics. :)

Elliejabbapop
09-04-2005, 09:19 AM
I think it's appropriate to suggest that some people should stop being delusional. :rolleyes:

Finally, you're discovering your inner self. :pleased:


If you think that anything you say here would make me hysterical, you've got delusions of grandeur.

I'm not thinking anything, I just have to look at the way you answer the posts of anyone who has a different point of view than yours. :grin:


But I say go for it if it makes you feel better.

Actually anything you say or do might just make me feel worse because I'd start thinking of all the phonies who call themselves SW fans when in reality they don't even like the films.


I understood your initial message perfectly
That you chose to alter the original meaning afterward isn't my problem.

Uh-uh you're getting nervous. You're trying to wipe wash your way out of it by saying the same, not to mention false, things. You understood my message "your way", which is not "the perfect" way, as it's not what I intended and I even proved it with screencaps, which is something I wouldn't have done had I not really believed what I was saying was true. You're accusing me of dishonesty and of tampering without even knowing me which is something that only a person with serious delusions of grandeur (stillakid aka God Almighty? Don't think so pal :rolleyes: ) would do.


Return to your hysterics. :)

Yes my lord God. But if I may say so .... you're really unoriginal.
Could you think of nothing else except doing a "ditto" sort of thing?
Jack Nicholson perhaps? :D

Rocketboy
09-04-2005, 10:28 AM
Then you aren't paying attention to detail, which is frequently why people genuinely love the Prequels...not really paying attention. The differences, particularly in the masks, are very obvious.Oooooh boy, You so craaaazy! :D

Elliejabbapop
09-04-2005, 01:00 PM
Oooooh boy, You so craaaazy! :D

I knew I wasn't the only one who had noticed :D

JediTricks
09-04-2005, 11:12 PM
Friends, do please shut up about with these personal attacks.

JediTricks
09-04-2005, 11:20 PM
Don't tell me he's just bending his head forward because we all know Vader's helmet doesn't have that kind of mobility forward-wise or backwords for that matter, he only has it sideways.If you've seen the Vader picture on the box of limited edition SW Cheez-its, you'll see he's bowing his head forward - I looked for a scan of the box online but can't find one, so I just took this one of the box I bought yesterday.

Also, your 3rd attachment shows the helmet bowing as well I think, the back of the neck part being lifted up as such.


Looking at that Cheez-it box, I think the "mask" on this ROTS helmet may be smaller than the OT version, as well as the top of the helmet more curved around the "eyes".

Elliejabbapop
09-05-2005, 01:09 PM
JT I never said he couldn't bow, I just think he couldn't do it proportionally to the extent of how he does it sideways, which means the difference in his helmet is not justified. I think it's pretty clear his whole mask looks as if it has been shrunk down when he first appears in the Tantive IV, or better, the mask looks much bigger later in the movie.
BTW thanks for calming the waters ;-)

darthvyn
09-05-2005, 02:32 PM
Looking at that Cheez-it box, I think the "mask" on this ROTS helmet may be smaller than the OT version, as well as the top of the helmet more curved around the "eyes".

looking at that cheez-it box, i think it's badly photoshopped. it's like they lassoed the helmet, cut and pasted it on another vader body, and rotated it. bleah.

Elliejabbapop
09-05-2005, 03:58 PM
I had never seen it before, but the pics they put on "food" often look terrible.
I'm not sure why they bother at all :-)

2-1B
09-05-2005, 07:13 PM
Supermarkets are not canon.

stillakid
09-05-2005, 08:23 PM
BTW thanks for calming the waters ;-)

uh, geez that's nice of you considering you're the one stirring them up in the first place. :rolleyes: Maybe next time write what you mean the first time and everyone else will understand you. Just an idea. :thumbsup: Then you won't have to resort to unsubstantiated personal attacks to cover your tracks. :love:


Now that you've finally (sort of) made the proper distinction that you are comparing the ANH mask with itself and not with any of the other episodes...

I think it's pretty clear his whole mask looks as if it has been shrunk down when he first appears in the Tantive IV, or better, the mask looks much bigger later in the movie.


What you are saying might be true, however it would seem to me that a movie with this budget wouldn't have had a lot of extra wiggle room for a variety of sculpts. I don't know for sure because I wasn't there and I don't have any documentation about it, but logic would suggest that there was just one main sculpt for the mask even if there were several castings made over the course of the project.

Of course the mask changed significantly for ESB and again for ROTJ when they had money to experiment. But for ANH it seems unlikely that they had multiple sculpts. What you are seeing may be an illusion....or not. Who knows.

2-1B
09-05-2005, 08:42 PM
Didn't Greedo have different sets of hands from the England principal photography versus the California reshoots/pickups ? :confused:

They might have had slightly different Vader gear, too, but I haven't heard anything of the sort.

I'd like to know.

JediTricks
09-06-2005, 02:58 AM
Sorry Ellie, I guess I misunderstood your comment then.


Vyn, I don't think it looks photoshopped, I think the model inside (I doubt they made Hayden get in the suit for publicity photos like this) simply pulled his neck back until the bottom of the helmet's neck-collar could slip under the shoulderplate.

Elliejabbapop
09-06-2005, 04:51 AM
uh, geez that's nice of you considering you're the one stirring them up in the first place. :rolleyes: Maybe next time write what you mean the first time and everyone else will understand you. Just an idea. :thumbsup:

No comment :rolleyes: :tired:



Then you won't have to resort to unsubstantiated personal attacks to cover your tracks.

You're accusing an honest person of dishonesty, that's not a nice thing to say just because you can't think of anything else to justify your (wrong) actions.



Now that you've finally (sort of) ????
made the proper distinction that you are comparing the ANH mask with itself and not with any of the other episodes...

Which I always did......



What you are saying might be true, however it would seem to me that a movie with this budget wouldn't have had a lot of extra wiggle room for a variety of sculpts. I don't know for sure because I wasn't there and I don't have any documentation about it, but logic would suggest that there was just one main sculpt for the mask even if there were several castings made over the course of the project.

Of course the mask changed significantly for ESB and again for ROTJ when they had money to experiment. But for ANH it seems unlikely that they had multiple sculpts. What you are seeing may be an illusion....or not. Who knows.

You know, at first I didn't want to believe it either, but then I started looking really hard and comparing shots and it just isn't convincing.
Does anyone know exactly when they shot the scene?

Elliejabbapop
09-06-2005, 04:59 AM
I think the model inside (I doubt they made Hayden get in the suit for publicity photos like this) simply pulled his neck back until the bottom of the helmet's neck-collar could slip under the shoulderplate.

The head looks as it's about to go flying :D
I don't think we should use this stuff for a comparatory study because they do it thinking people won't notice and take all kinds of liberties (you said it yourself it might have been a model, who knows if the guy even knows what SW is).

darthvyn
09-06-2005, 06:25 AM
Vyn, I don't think it looks photoshopped, I think the model inside (I doubt they made Hayden get in the suit for publicity photos like this) simply pulled his neck back until the bottom of the helmet's neck-collar could slip under the shoulderplate.

the more i look at it, the more it looks photoshopped. the helmet, the shoulders and the hand all look like (badly put together) separate pieces from other pics. the arm is coming out of nowhere, and the head looks like a 2-dimensional mask that was placed above the shoulderpiece. i don't think they would get someone else to be in the suit at all, when they can make a franken-photo like this one, albeit badly...

seanmcfripp
09-06-2005, 09:26 AM
If you watch the short clip on E III that appears on the OT DVD Bonus disk there is a comment that the Darth Vader helmet is different then that which appears in the OT (sorry I don't remember the comment off hand but it is mentioned). So in that case it WAS a known difference to Lucas I'm not sure but it was to the prop department. From what I have seen Lucas seems to be aware of what happened before and kept that in mind. Granted there were some goofs but also remember that we on this board along w/ TONS of others are picking these movies apart with extremely fine tooth combs.

I know the clip you're talking about. In fact, it was one of the main sources of frustration that inspired me to respond to this thread in the first place. The prop person is going on and on about all the problems they encountered when trying reproduce the original: "oh, we had to fill in something here, and make a nip and a tuck there...we're finding that we've encountered most of the same problems as the original prop folks when making the costume 30 years ago". If I remember correctly, he's futzing around with a dome and mask, pointing to all the areas that they had to "improve" to make it fit better or more efficiently. I'm sure that's why most of the differences we're seeing came about. The old chest panel probably moved all over the place on the old costume (strapping it on isn't an exact science), so hey, let's just build it into the leather and it'll stay on better. Hey, aren't we clever? I don't think so.

My feeling from watching the clip is that the guy really thought he was doing a good job. And maybe he was, based on what he was asked to do. The point is this:

THE COSTUME DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT.

Can we all agree on that? I think we can, and it shows because whenever someone gripes about a difference, no one really steps up to argue it, they only give some excuse for it. I'm sure everone can agree that the whole costume is off in one way or another. We just can't seem to get on the same page on what's acceptable change and what isn't.

Somebody mentioned earlier in this thread the appearence of Obi-wan's lightsaber. I'd like to offer up my opinion, just to show where I (and maybe others) am coming from. I really don't mind the lightsaber thing at all. Stillakid made this point earlier to some degree, and I can certainly accept this line of thinking: shiny new, slighly different looking lightsaber ---> old rusted, thicker-looking lightsaber. New and shiny logically becomes old and busted. I guess I could be picky about the size thing (because it really does look a lot thinner), but I dunno, it just doesn't bother me. It's just a tool. It doesn't act. It doesn't emote. It doesn't really do much to advance the story. It just looks like Obi-wan's lightsaber, and really, that's all it has to do. Vader on the other hand is essential as a character in Star Wars. I would say that next to JEJ's voice, Vader's phyical appearence is probably the most important trait of the character. The gestures, the gait, the posture...everything that we saw on-screen in the PT was vital to creating Vader as a character. With that in mind, any change that doesn't fit logically into the ANH - ROTJ evolution of the character just doesn't work for me. It can't work for me.

There are so many things about the Anakin/Vader character that have been ruined for me by the PT (again, not really related to this thread, but dicussed heavily already in others over the years), and this Vader costume is another one to add to the tally. Just focusing on the physical appearence (and all other issues aside), the dark imposing figure pacing up and down the bridge of the Executor in ESB is not the same character that stepped off of the Frankenstein slab in ROTS. It's bad enough that I'm expected to dumb down my brain and reconcile the Vader who chillingly aks Lando "Perhaps you feel you're being treated unfairly?" with this new Vader that screams "Noooooooooooooooooo!", but now I'm also expected dumb down my eyes and take anything in a black suit, cape, and scary mask and helmet as Vader.

I'm just trying to understand the motivation of the film makers here. If you are making ROTS and you have to have Vader in your movie, what would you do if that Vader costume shows up on your set? Do you sign off on it? I personally would not have been happy. But it makes me wonder: What did Lucas think? If he saw little differences, did he even care? Why do I notice these things? Should I notice these things? Why do I even care? If I notice the differences, and everyone here notices the differences, why didn't he? Or if he did, why were they acceptable? It's probably not worth getting all worked up over, but again, it took me out of the movie, so it's worth discussing. I should NOT have been made to feel like I was taken out of the movie. I am for certain that Lucas has no intention of taking patrons of his "art" out of the experience.



As far as the Lando last name thing goes... MEH! Kinda like one person saying 'Leia' vs. another saying 'Laya.'

I dunno man. I mean, do you ever mis-speak Lando's name? I know I don't, and I don't see why I ever would. It's not a question of pronounciation (Han says "Cal-riss-ian" as where Lando says "Cal-reese-ian"...doesn't bother me if they say it differently), Lucas just plain botched it. I know it's a minor thing, but it's little stuff like that which gives people away. I only brought it up in the first place as a set-up to the argument that Lucas, as a filmaker, doesn't get bogged down with the super nitty gritty details like we do, which is perfectly understandable. But it isn't acceptable when the details are big, and I think Vader's appearance is a big detail.

JimJamBonds
09-06-2005, 10:12 AM
I think those differences are known and while this will likely come off as trying to provide a simple answer for the 'problem' but we have about 20 years between movies. During that time there can be all sorts of changes that occur during that time allowing the suit to be tweeked. For the record I personally don't have an issue with the Vader armor its not one of the things that I really make a stink out of (but I did notice it :) ).

seanmcfripp
09-06-2005, 10:41 AM
I think those differences are known and while this will likely come off as trying to provide a simple answer for the 'problem' but we have about 20 years between movies. During that time there can be all sorts of changes that occur during that time allowing the suit to be tweeked. For the record I personally don't have an issue with the Vader armor its not one of the things that I really make a stink out of (but I did notice it :) ).

I gotcha. In fact, I have no problem with the tweaking that occurred between ANH and ROTJ.

I live to make a stink, especially over things that are trivial! Who has time to sweat the big important stuff? :pleased:

JimJamBonds
09-06-2005, 11:40 AM
I live to make a stink, especially over things that are trivial! Who has time to sweat the big important stuff? :pleased:

I knew we had something in common! ;)

Markimus
09-06-2005, 04:52 PM
Pesonally I have no problem with the Vader Armor from ROTS .... it doesn't look that different at All. I mean come on ! It's Vader. No one on earth would see the movie and say.. "oh who was that at the end? Vader? Naw .. his helmet wasn't the right color"..or something silly like that. You make it sound like Lucas made this Vader in a white disco outfit or spandex shorts... come on...
As others have stated you have about 20 years that the suit could have changed...if EVER sooo slightly...
oh and Vader changed over 20 years too.. who doesn't ? The fact that Vader does not instantly start being evil and choking people and killing is the WHOLE POINT OF THE MOVIES. Vader starts as a good guy- goes bad... and is redeemed in the end. THAT's THE STORY ARC OF THE SERIES.
This is the first movie with extreme close ups of the Helmet... and it looks awesome.
This is such a non-issue.

seanmcfripp
09-08-2005, 11:25 AM
As others have stated you have about 20 years that the suit could have changed...if EVER sooo slightly...oh and Vader changed over 20 years too.. who doesn't ?

Yeah, I know, but (there's always a "but"), it's the linear progression of the thing that gets me. I have NO problem with the costume changing from ANH through ROTJ. Time goes on, suit gets better...makes perfect sense. But can we agree that the ROTS suit looks the "best" of suits in the four movies? It should look "worse" than the suit in ANH. It shouldn't look bad, but it shouldn't look more improved. Think about this: I read somewhere that the new helmet and mask were laythed using a computer, so the end result is that the mask and helmet are perfectly symmetrical. If I remember correctly, the guy making the mask and helmet was really really proud of this acheivement, something like "This is the first time in SW history that we're seeing a truly symmetrical Vader mask and helmet!"

Ok, so how is that a good thing? We don't want perfect. We want what makes sense in context of the other films. We want a costume that logically leads into what we see in ANH, not "super cool symmetrical shiny perfect costume" leading into "best we could do with the money and resources we had at the time". Stilla kinda made this point using cars as an analogy (you can't change the generation of Mustang a guy is driving if time is moving sequentially and linearly). When making the Dukes of Hazzard movie, what if they recreated a 69 Dodge Charger from the ground up, then took some liberties in improving what they thought may have been design flaws on the original cars? NO! Just get a '69 Charger, and do whatever they did to the cars they used in the original show. I just want to believe that what I'm seeing is the original General Lee, not a close approximation where someone widened the back a little and put wider wheels on it and made the grill on the front "better". I'm not a huge car guy, but I know some fans of that show are. And if the makers of the Dukes movies had changed the car at all, I'd completely understand the fans' negative reaction.


The fact that Vader does not instantly start being evil and choking people and killing is the WHOLE POINT OF THE MOVIES. Vader starts as a good guy- goes bad... and is redeemed in the end. THAT's THE STORY ARC OF THE SERIES..

I gotcha...although I don't think anyone was trying to say otherwise. I think we're talking about the appearence of the costume in this particular thread. I agree with the point though.



This is the first movie with extreme close ups of the Helmet... and it looks awesome.
This is such a non-issue.

I think the PT is full of static close-ups of Vader's mask (too many to mention), and in fact has always been especially easy to study because it is, after all, just a mask (no moving when he talks, so we really get caught up in the angles of the face). I've heard artists say that Vader's mask and helmet are particularly difficult to render by hand in a drawing, because it works so ridiculously well on film. The camera and lights just love the combination of contours and hard lines, mixed in with a black shiny surface. That face just draws a viewer in like no other, and don't think it's just a coincidence that Vader's image is so iconic. Vader's image on film is just flat out seductive...you love to look at it. So after all these years of being sucked in by that image, we, as viewers of these movies, have subconciously digested a fair number of details of that image. Without even knowing it, we like the fact that Vader's mask was not perfectly symmetrical, so what's the point of "fixing" it to make it something else. It just doesn't make sense.

When you say it looks "awesome", what exactly do you mean? Does it look awesome because it's Vader? I can agree with you there...Vader is awesome, and the idea of Vader being in ROTS is pretty awesome. But what about what we see on screen in ROTS? Is the new costume more awesome than what we've seen in the PT? If so, in what way? I'm just curious.

I guess that's why it's not a non-issue (I love double negatives) for me. Compared to what I know and love in the PT, there's nothing particularly awesome about that Vader suit in ROTS...especially if I think it's because the makers of the film didn't take their craft seriously.

2-1B
09-08-2005, 11:58 AM
Come on guys, we're talking about a series of movies where Jake Llloyd ages 2 years from one shot to another in TPM and that was allowed to pass . . . Vader's suit is small potatoes. :crazed:

seanmcfripp
09-08-2005, 12:28 PM
Vader's suit is small potatoes. :crazed:

Hey, Darth Tater is no small fry!

JimJamBonds
09-08-2005, 12:41 PM
Hey, Darth Tater is no small fry!

"My, my, this here Anakin guy
Maybe Vader someday later
now he's just a small fry."
- 'Weird' Al Yankovic

seanmcfripp
09-08-2005, 02:18 PM
"My, my, this here Anakin guy
Maybe Vader someday later
now he's just a small fry."
- 'Weird' Al Yankovic

I knew that was coming.

JimJamBonds
09-08-2005, 02:22 PM
I knew that was coming.

Thank you Sir! Uncle Ted tips his chapeau to you. lol

Markimus
09-08-2005, 02:47 PM
. But can we agree that the ROTS suit looks the "best" of suits in the four movies? It should look "worse" than the suit in ANH.
.

Why shouldn't it look the "best" in ROTS it's brand new !! Don't things look better when they are brand new !!
I'm sure over the years he's had to repair battle damage and such... but at this moment in this film Vader should look his best because he's new. Just like the droids look their best when newer.
Doesn't a brand new General Lee look better than one that is 20 years old? Plus over that 20 years don't you think there have been nicks, dents, and repairs made? (using your general lee analogy :squareeye )

I think the mask being symmetrical is great... I'm sure if they could have made it that way in the 70s or 80s they would have.

I tried to find some pictures of the helmets to compare... and the best I could find so far was to compare the Star Wars visual dictionary from 1998 to the one from ROTS. I must tell you in those pictures the ROTS looks better - but really hardly different. ROTS looks shinier and maybe a little tighter - which I think fits perfectly for it being new.
I've seen people say the color on the new helmet is black and the origional was not all black... well, it should be black ! You can't tell me anyone would say Vaders helmet isn't black...(anyone other than nit picking "fans").
So maybe over time.. and we are talking almost 20 years here... the Helmet fades ... gets looser.. gets patched up or repaired.. and it never looks as good as it did brand new. The Star Wars visual dictionary from 1998 even has little chunks of damage in the Vader Helmet on the cover !
If you can forgive the changes that took place over the first 3 movies which was what.. only a few years (if that)... and not accept changes that took place over 20 years.. seems a little harsh.
It was awesome to see Vader again in ROTS.. so don't nit pick how he looked.. he's suppossed to look better.. he's new.

Devo
09-08-2005, 05:44 PM
I've never noticed Vaders helmet being unsymmetrical in the OT. In fact until recently I wasn't aware there were any differences at all between his outfits in ANH, ESB and ROTJ. Sorry if its been answered already and I'm too lazy to read the whole thread but exactly what about vader's helmet is 'off' in the OT?

OK I thought to hell with it and I did read the whole thread after posting the above and now that I have I realise how irritating my ignorance must be a few posters in this thread.

I am torn. I want to agree with the original poster and all those who've supported his position and I can see their points (all well made) if only because I do tend to agree with most criticisms of the PT. However on this one I'm indifferent. Someone on the first page said it best - an approximation of his words - 'maybe his blacker, shinier ESB suit was in the laundry when he stormed the Tantive IV'. I can fairly easily reconcile in my head this particular inconsistency. Of course as the OP has been saying - its an inconsistency that could have been avoided so why wasn't it. True but I'm not losing sleep on this one. The 'Nnnnnoooooooooo' is another matter.

stillakid
09-08-2005, 06:03 PM
No comment :rolleyes: :tired:
I wouldn't expect you to have a comment. You've already dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of.





You're accusing an honest person of dishonesty, that's not a nice thing to say just because you can't think of anything else to justify your (wrong) actions.
You're a piece of work. Please point out to me exactly what my "wrong" actions have been and we can discuss it from there. I'll be over here holding my breath.



Which I always did......
No, you didn't, and what's more, you even admitted that you didn't, so I don't quite understand what planet you're living on at the moment.




This is the first movie with extreme close ups of the Helmet... and it looks awesome.
I'll assume that you have yet to watch Return of the Jedi. Check it out and then come back to talk.



Come on guys, we're talking about a series of movies where Jake Llloyd ages 2 years from one shot to another in TPM and that was allowed to pass . . . Vader's suit is small potatoes. :crazed:
I don't recall that. Which shots were those? :confused:



I think the mask being symmetrical is great... I'm sure if they could have made it that way in the 70s or 80s they would have.
But they didn't, and that's the point. They are beholden to previously established continuity. Anything else and it is a mistake.

2-1B
09-08-2005, 10:24 PM
I don't recall that. Which shots were those? :confused:


When Anakin goes to say goodbye to Padme and is told by Amidala that she sent Padme on an errand, well Jake Lloyd is about 2 years older in that shot and it certainly shows because kids grow so fast at that age. :)

stillakid
09-08-2005, 11:41 PM
When Anakin goes to say goodbye to Padme and is told by Amidala that she sent Padme on an errand, well Jake Lloyd is about 2 years older in that shot and it certainly shows because kids grow so fast at that age. :)


Cool, thanks! :) I'll cue that up at some point to check it out.

Speaking of, have you seen Eric Lloyd lately? Talk about growing up and looking different. Too bad he couldn't have been Anakin. I think he could have pulled off the role from start to finish in every incarnation. What could have been... :yes:

JimJamBonds
09-09-2005, 12:46 AM
Speaking of, have you seen Eric Lloyd lately? Talk about growing up and looking different. Too bad he couldn't have been Anakin. I think he could have pulled off the role from start to finish in every incarnation. What could have been... :yes:

I'm guessing you mean JAKE Lloyd there Stilla? ;) I hadn't seen Jake but I did a quick search and it seems that the young scamp has grown up. He is 16 yrs. old so I don't see how he could have done Anakin as we know him in E III. He would have been 13-14 yrs old when principal shooting took place and I don't think he would have been able to pull off looking in his late teens/early twenties at that point. Due to the fact that Anakin must be very strong in the Force he can't be all that young (at least I think so). Now lets say ROTS was being shot THIS year then yeah I would probably believe it if his character is supposed to be 20.

2-1B
09-09-2005, 02:10 AM
Eric Lloyd was the guy stillakid wanted to play Anakin. He of The Santa Clause Trilogy fame. :)

And he would have been 17 when they shot ROTS, so no, no he should not be in the whole SW trilogy. Episode 1, sure. :) But not 2, 3, and 6, where Hayden belongs. :)

stillakid
09-09-2005, 07:40 AM
Right, what he said. :thumbsup: I said Eric and I meant Eric.

But apart from that, no, you're right, Eric did not belong in the Prequels that should have been made. No little kid should have ever played Anakin. We should have seen someone older all along, like a youthful Eric Bana or something like that. Almost anyone that wasn't Hayden "my mouth is full of cotton" Christiansen. :love:

seanmcfripp
09-09-2005, 09:17 AM
Why shouldn't it look the "best" in ROTS it's brand new !! Don't things look better when they are brand new !!

No, no, no...that wasn't my point at all, and I'm pretty sure I was clear about it. It's the design of the thing that people have a problem with. You (Lucas) shouldn't have a suit in ROTS that is functionally better than what we see in ANH.


I'm sure over the years he's had to repair battle damage and such... but at this moment in this film Vader should look his best because he's new. Just like the droids look their best when newer.

It should at least look like a shiny new version of the ANH suit (since that's our only point of reference). It doesn't. It looks like someone took the best of what they liked about the ROTJ look and went from there with their "improvements". Doesn't cut it.


Doesn't a brand new General Lee look better than one that is 20 years old? Plus over that 20 years don't you think there have been nicks, dents, and repairs made? (using your general lee analogy :squareeye )

Well, let's say they made a Dukes of Hazzard prequel. I dunno, let's say it took place in 1972 (I think the original show started and took place in 1978). Would it make sense if they popped the hood we saw that the car had fuel injection? No, because the car from 1978 had a carburetor. Would it make sense if we saw that the car had ABS? No, because the 1978 car had a regular breaking system. Would it make sense if the thing had Onstar? No, because the 1978 car didn't have that either (and I think Onstar is exclusive to GM cars anyway).

Do you see my point now? ROTS Vader can not logically look more advanced in design than ANH Vader. If they had just made a super clean, brand new, right out of the box-looking version of ANH Vader for ROTS, I think everyone here would be ok with it. But they didn't. The film-makers were careless, did not pay attention to detail, and dangit, I want someone to acknowledge it.


I think the mask being symmetrical is great... I'm sure if they could have made it that way in the 70s or 80s they would have.)

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but why on earth would you think that. Why would Vader start out with a "perfect" helmet/mask in ROTS, only to progress to a "less than perfect" helmet/mask. Again, so we're clear, I'm talking about the design and symmetry. Could the fictional manufacturers of Vader's medical components all of the sudden lose the ability to be able to produce a symmetrical mask? Can you picture Vader stepping up to the counter to buy a new one?

Vader: Yeah, I'd like to get a new mask and helmet. I love my old one...it's so perfectly shiny and symmetrical, but it's starting to stink a little.

Girl at the Gap: Well, we've got a new shipment in for this season, but we had switch vendors, so the quality has gone down a bit. We used to manufacture them at a facility on Geonosis, where craftsmanship is top notch, but ever since the Clone Wars, they're assets have been seized. The best we were able to do was to get a few sweatshops set up on Endor. These new helmets and masks are made by hand, so they aren't quite symmetrical, and some of the goggles are off color, but they do display some of the finest Ewok craftsmanship you'll ever see.

That is a highly unlikely scenario.


It was awesome to see Vader again in ROTS.. so don't nit pick how he looked.. he's suppossed to look better.. he's new.

This is a good point, if not only to illustrate the fundamental differences in our viewpoints. I don't think it was particularly awesome to see Vader in ROTS. Seeing Vader for the first time in ANH is one of movie history's most fabulous character entrances and should have been allowed to remain intact, but it is now undermined by the appearance of a suited Vader in ROTS. This is a separate topic, that I believe has already been beat up in other discussions before. My feeling is that if suited Vader has to be in ROTS, dangit, Lucas at least had better do the costume part of it right. And he didn't. He threw Hayden up there in a suit that doesn't work. The image of Vader in ROTS is nothing but a distraction.

scruffziller
09-09-2005, 09:43 AM
He probably has alterations made from battles he has in those 20 years.
*
Light side eye for the Sith Guy.:D
*


But on the topic of Vader, you know what bugs me during ROTS is right before his mask goes on, we see him staring at it a little of to the side and there is NO big neck piece around him, then suddenly it's there as they are dropping the mask down.

*
Also if you notice in ROTJ as Vader dies and it shows Luke, off to the side you can see Vader has no neck piece this time either.* I wonder if ROTS is an homage to it?!:D

First pic its there, 2nd one it's gone.

Devo
09-09-2005, 12:54 PM
Eric did not belong in the Prequels that should have been made. No little kid should have ever played Anakin. We should have seen someone older all along, like a youthful Eric Bana or something like that. Almost anyone that wasn't Hayden "my mouth is full of cotton" Christiansen. :love:

:yes: now this I totally agree on. Jake Lloyd wasn't Darth Vader and neither was Hayden Christensen but most important of all - Darth Vader was never a child nor was he ever a whining teenager.

What of the suit? I just can't get myself riled up about that. I agree that logically it shouldn't be getting 'crapper' and more hodge-podge as time goes on. If he has only one at a given time and orders another one to be made then a new replacement suit would either be identical or be 'improved'. But theres also the possibility that he has more than one suit at one time and he either doesn't notice or doesn't care about the slightly poorer workmanship on one helmet than on another - a kind of 'as long as it does the job' attitude. A given suit such as the ANH one has a bit of wear and tear - he just hasn't gotten around to getting into his spare one yet - and he has by the time of ESB. Why does he wear his tunic over the armour in ANH and not in the other films? Day-to-day absentmindedness? I'm sure Vader feels it doesn't make much of a difference to him and maybe he alternates between putting his tunic under his armour and over his armour either knowingly or unknowingly. Maybe the same kind of 'hey its a black helmet, he has goggle eyes and his breathing is very pronounced - its Vader' is present within the Star Wars universe and not just here in this thread.

2-1B
09-09-2005, 01:00 PM
WOW Scruff, good catch there ! I never noticed before . . .

2-1B
09-09-2005, 01:04 PM
Almost anyone that wasn't Hayden "my mouth is full of cotton" Christiansen. :love:

I have my hearing checked every year and so far they have never told me that I have super levels of hearing . . . I've not had one problem understanding what Hayden says and I know it's not because I have exceptional hearing, definitely not any better than yours. :confused:

And by the way, it's Christensen. :)

stillakid
09-09-2005, 01:41 PM
*
Light side eye for the Sith Guy.:D
*

*
Also if you notice in ROTJ as Vader dies and it shows Luke, off to the side you can see Vader has no neck piece this time either.* I wonder if ROTS is an homage to it?!:D

First pic its there, 2nd one it's gone.


Yeah, I've always wondered about that. But only in passing. I've always meant to look at it more closely, wondering if perhaps Sebastian's head just rolled back too far in that shot or something. It always struck me as strange that the bottom piece wasn't visible.

But the other thing that caught my attention about that scene was how Sebastian was propped up in the first place. He's not really leaning on anything in any of the shots, yet he is leaning upward so that he can face Luke. It's almost like he'd have to have both his arms back, as if he were sitting on the floor watching TV.

stillakid
09-09-2005, 01:42 PM
I have my hearing checked every year and so far they have never told me that I have super levels of hearing . . . I've not had one problem understanding what Hayden says and I know it's not because I have exceptional hearing, definitely not any better than yours. :confused:

And by the way, it's Christensen. :)


It's not that he's hard to hear, he just doesn't like to open his mouth to talk which gives the illusion that he has his mouth schtuffed wiff cotton. :grin:

2-1B
09-10-2005, 12:53 AM
But would you say that he's "got a real purty mouth" ? lol lol lol

I am floored by Scruff's post about ROTJVader's missing neck piece, that is incredible. Now I really want to know if it was an homage ?

If it was, I'd say that was pretty stupid to do it in ROTS because it's WAYYYYY too obvious and looks bad, I mean I went 20 years or so without ever noticing on ROTJ but in ROTS I noticed it on my 4th viewing or so. lol

JediTricks
09-10-2005, 03:24 AM
Also if you notice in ROTJ as Vader dies and it shows Luke, off to the side you can see Vader has no neck piece this time either.* I wonder if ROTS is an homage to it?!:D

First pic its there, 2nd one it's gone.
Like Stilla said, it could just be that Shaw's head is leaning further back and now the camera moved so the neck is out of frame.

Elliejabbapop
09-10-2005, 06:57 AM
I wouldn't expect you to have a comment. You've already dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of.

Unbelievable. The magic of irony smothered in.... wait, I see the light !!! :D


No, you didn't, and what's more, you even admitted that you didn't, so I don't quite understand what planet you're living on at the moment.

I live on the planet Earth in the Solar System, which is located in the Milky Way. However, I might try for Mars in a few years. :)
Where do you live and what language do you speak that is so different from mine?

BTW I agree with you on the fact that Anakin should have never been a little boy, it bugged me quite a lot, but so far nobody, and I mean nobody, has given me a good reason not to like Hayden Christensen. Comparing him with his fellow principal actors I can't find any particular faults that were not in common with Ewan or (especially) with Natalie, so any tiny-winy hickup must be in the script, since I think I can safely say these actors are great, and if you don't want to see it in Star Wars, in which I thought they were great anyway, you have to watch the other films they did.
That is, without prejudice, which may be a problem for some people here.
The comment about Eric Bana (wonderful actor, don't get me wrong) made me a little sick but never mind ;)
ps. About that "voice" comment, I think you were confusing Hayden Christensen with Marlon Brando in "The Godfather", although it's quite a difference. :D

scruffziller
09-10-2005, 09:40 AM
Like Stilla said, it could just be that Shaw's head is leaning further back and now the camera moved so the neck is out of frame.

Nope, I wondered that myself too, but if you look closely at the first pic you can't even see Shaw's mouth or chin because it is engulfed in the neck piece. And the 2nd shot his mouth and chin are clearly visible. It isn't even the the neck part of it that would be out of frame if it was because the "mouth" part of the neck piece would be sticking way up in the air for you to see over his mouth. And on that note they probably took it off because it would obstruct the closeup of Luke hanging his head down. I drew up a comparison photo and it shows where the neckpiece should be.

Markimus
09-10-2005, 11:21 AM
I am still just stunned that this is an issue.

SeanMC - I think your problem is that Vader is even in ROTS which makes you in a very small minority... I think almost everyone wanted to see Vader in ROTS and again that's the whole point of the prequels - without him there they never should have made Eps 1-3... would that make you happy? (it probably would). Seeing the birth of Vader, construction of Vader was very exciting for a long time Star Wars fan like myself.. and I think most would agree with me. I am very please Lucas made ep 1-3.

Its sooo not sloppy for the Lucas team to make the ROTS Vader look good. He wanted a sharp looking Vader for his "return" and that's what we got...If anything it is because they care so much that he looks good.

First and foremost... there is hardly any difference !!! This is such nit picking. You could ask 20 people on the street -what is the difference in the Vader helmets... no one could find any. Guaranteed. Please post some pics here to show these differences... full head pics... not close ups of a neck or something ...you never see any of those in these discussions... why? There's hardly any difference !!!
This ROTS Vader is used in all the marketing of the movie... you see Vader's image on the toys... notebooks.. etc. this must really bug you... and you ALONE.
I bet if you had not watched the making of Vader's helmet stories (which you admitted watching) you would never know they made this helmet symmetrical. Now that you know, that its your biggest gripe....

Its not distracting to see Vader in ROTS... that makes me laugh... come on....its Star Wars... that's where Vader belongs. Plus guess what ... the image of Vader showing up at the start of ANH... it's still there. Your childhood memories are safe... you can go back and relive that moment any time... you can choose to watch the movies 4-6 then 1-3... its ok...whatever order you want.

Now if we get back into the movies (try this again -using your arguments)... Anakin would continue to age under the suit.. he would get fatter.. thinner ... whatever ..over 20 years... during that time adjustments would be made. Plus, he's fighting rebels all this time trying to hunt down Jedi and expand the Empire... maybe he does not have a lot of time for his repairs to look as good as the origional suit.. during war.. there just may not be time...that seems very reasonable... 20 years of hunting down remaining Jedi -- that's a lot of wear and tear... The Clone Troopers uniforms evolve to Stormtroopers... why begrudge Vaders MINOR CHANGES !! 20 years is a looong time for something to stay exactly the same...

I'm not trying to make anyone mad here .. and you people SEEM like Star Wars fans... I just don't get this obsession with putting down Vader from ROTS... I would understand if Lucas had made Vader pink with an orange construction worker helmet.... then I'd be upset too ! That didn't happen. Vader looks great... it certainly is not an irrationally different look... so sit back, relax, and enjoy the last time you will ever see Vader on the movie screen.

2-1B
09-10-2005, 11:49 AM
Good work Scruff ! I'm with you - it's not a camera issue but rather the prop is definitely missing. :)

stillakid
09-10-2005, 12:29 PM
I am still just stunned that this is an issue.

Chill. Nobody is living or dying over this. It's just one of those "things" to talk about. :rolleyes:

Next, with the OT and its continuity as a guide, Vader did not belong in the Prequels. That much should be crystal clear to anyone paying attention. The inclusion of him in ROTS was nothing but pure gratuitious action meant to excite the fanboys. As a storypoint, it was meaningless at best. At worst, the story that is shown in the PT severely disrupts the carefully written "reveal" of Vader's identity in the OT. Why? So the fanboys could get their rocks off one last time. Sounds justified to me. :thumbsup: :rolleyes:

And yes, we can watch these in any order we choose or not at all. Absolutely. But the point is that Lucas was obligated to make Prequels that fit in with the timeline as stories that come before a continuity that had already been established. Simply writing off problems by suggesting that the films be watched out of episode order is merely a way to shrug off the problems that exist...it doesn't erase them in the least.

And yeah, your average normal person is going to :rolleyes: at any geek who tries to point out the obvious differences between Vader's armor as it "begins" in ROTS, then regresses to ANH, then progresses again toward ROTJ. Yeah, they could care less and it doesn't necessarily detract from the story (the story does well enough of that on its own). But again, simply saying that it isn't worth the time to talk about or writing it off as a "non-issue" doesn't erase the problem that is inherently there. You can choose to ignore it, but it doesn't make it go away.

Elliejabbapop
09-10-2005, 12:53 PM
And yeah, your average normal person is going to :rolleyes: at any geek who tries to point out the obvious differences between Vader's armor as it "begins" in ROTS, then regresses to ANH, then progresses again toward ROTJ.

Well I could do the devil's advocate here and say these differences were not obvious to everyone, you should know since you dismissed Rocketboy by saying he "wasn't paying attention" :rolleyes: .

Markimus
09-10-2005, 02:24 PM
Next, with the OT and its continuity as a guide, Vader did not belong in the Prequels. That much should be crystal clear to anyone paying attention. The inclusion of him in ROTS was nothing but pure gratuitious action meant to excite the fanboys. As a storypoint, it was meaningless at best.
.

You MUST be joking.. please tell me you do not really believe this !! You do realize that the entire arc of the prequels is Anakin becoming Vader.. you do know that - right ??? So how on earth can you say he does not belong in the prequels ?? That is the entire POINT of the prequels ! It's why Lucas created the prequels.
What would YOU do .. have Anakin turn evil... and .. the end !! He was just a normal human gone bad.. suddenly he reappears in ANH as Vader -- gee, how bad would THAT suck. Then you would complain about that !

I would argue that the reveal of Vader at the end of ROTS is better than the one in ANH. It's far more emotional . In fact it enhances that ANH entrance... you can say, "oh there he is - wow - he's really evil now, must be from killing all those Jedi"

Don't be such haters... the origional trilogy is in no way damaged by the prequels..

You guys really make me laugh.. hillarious.:razz:

scruffziller
09-10-2005, 04:35 PM
Good work Scruff ! I'm with you - it's not a camera issue but rather the prop is definitely missing. :)

I have had this info under my belt for sometime too and was going to start a thread sometime ago but never got around to it. Then when I saw the ROTS neckpiece issue, I had to speak up about what I knew.:lipsrseal :D

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-10-2005, 07:19 PM
I thought I had posted this before, but I guess not.

What scene was added to the SE with Vader? I can't think of any new ones.

Slicker
09-10-2005, 07:26 PM
I thought I had posted this before, but I guess not.

What scene was added to the SE with Vader? I can't think of any new ones.You did post it before and I answered it but I can't seem to find it either. I'm pretty sure that they added Vader on Bespin when he's walking out to his shuttle. The far away side shot after he says to get his shuttle ready. The front shot where he's walking towards it was previously in there...I think.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-10-2005, 07:32 PM
You did post it before and I answered it but I can't seem to find it either. I'm pretty sure that they added Vader on Bespin when he's walking out to his shuttle. The far away side shot after he says to get his shuttle ready. The front shot where he's walking towards it was previously in there...I think.
D'oh, I'm confusing this thread with the "Prowse back for 3" thread. Feel free to delete this and my last post.

stillakid
09-10-2005, 08:14 PM
You MUST be joking.. please tell me you do not really believe this !! You do realize that the entire arc of the prequels is Anakin becoming Vader.. you do know that - right ??? So how on earth can you say he does not belong in the prequels ?? That is the entire POINT of the prequels ! It's why Lucas created the prequels.
What would YOU do .. have Anakin turn evil... and .. the end !! He was just a normal human gone bad.. suddenly he reappears in ANH as Vader -- gee, how bad would THAT suck. Then you would complain about that !

I would argue that the reveal of Vader at the end of ROTS is better than the one in ANH. It's far more emotional . In fact it enhances that ANH entrance... you can say, "oh there he is - wow - he's really evil now, must be from killing all those Jedi"

Don't be such haters... the origional trilogy is in no way damaged by the prequels..

You guys really make me laugh.. hillarious.:razz:

Did I sound like I was joking?

The reason why Vader appearing in the PT has nothing to do with his "reveal" in ANH. It has everything to do with the "reveal" of his secret identity and the carefully written and executed way that the audience learns information in the OT films. Now, with the cat of the bag (when viewed in episode order), the entire mystery of "is he really Luke's dad?" becomes a massive YAWN moment for any future viewers. Never let Lucas near a murder mystery...he'll give it away in the first 10 minutes. :rolleyes:

scruffziller
09-11-2005, 08:28 AM
Did I sound like I was joking?

The reason why Vader appearing in the PT has nothing to do with his "reveal" in ANH. It has everything to do with the "reveal" of his secret identity and the carefully written and executed way that the audience learns information in the OT films. Now, with the cat of the bag (when viewed in episode order), the entire mystery of "is he really Luke's dad?" becomes a massive YAWN moment for any future viewers. Never let Lucas near a murder mystery...he'll give it away in the first 10 minutes. :rolleyes:

Do you think GL could have written the PT in such a way to where that would not have been the case? How would you have written it Stilla? This is a serious question, not a drop of sarcasm.( I should clear that up since there has been alot of it going on)

stillakid
09-11-2005, 09:40 AM
Do you think GL could have written the PT in such a way to where that would not have been the case? How would you have written it Stilla? This is a serious question, not a drop of sarcasm.( I should clear that up since there has been alot of it going on)

Yes, definitely, without a shred of doubt. Thanks for asking! :)

I'm sure I have some diatribe archived somewhere around here with all the details, but in short, there was a way to introduce the character (Anakin) without giving away his future relationship to Luke or give away that he was going to be the mean guy behind the mask. Easy to do? No. Possible? Yes. But Lucas took the "easy" way out and decided to just throw up gratuitous elements (Vader) instead of doing the hard work himself and refusing to hire a qualified WGA writer to help.

Markimus
09-11-2005, 01:38 PM
but in short, there was a way to introduce the character (Anakin) without giving away his future relationship to Luke or give away that he was going to be the mean guy behind the mask. Easy to do? No. Possible? Yes. .

Possible ? No. - First off - to the people who have already seen Eps 4-6 and we all know Vader's name is Anakin... so how are you going to write a story about a kid/young adult named Anakin and not know what his ultimate fate is.... not possible. What are you going to do change his name ???? That would be stupid.

Here's what you are not thinking of. We've all seen 4-6 and we know the Vader story.... BUT if you watch the movies in order 1-6 without any prior knowledge there are many surprises .. think about it. You do lose the secret that Vader is Lukes father no doubt... here's what you gain...

You don't know Palpatine is the Sith Lord who becomes the Emperor... nope. We know because the Emperors name ...but watching 1-6 this will be a surprise.
You don't know Anankin turns evil.. you don't know Anakin is going to turn bad and start killing Jedi.. that's a shock.
You also don't know Anakin is going to be horribly injured and require a kick-butt looking suit that keeps his mangled body alive... think about how cool it would be to see Vader for the first time coming off that operating table .. and its that kid you watched since Ep 1... big "Holy Crap" moment.
You don't know the Jedi are going to get killed and the Republic fall.. you don't know the clones will turn and become Stormtroopers...
You don't know Anakin will get married and have twins ! You don't know it will be twin babies.
You would cheer the return of Yoda... and wonder at first, if he's gone mad (the reveal of Yoda as a Jedi Master is another surprise lost).
You get to see Boba Fett all grown up as a bounty hunter and Chewie comes back friends of Han now.

so see - there are plenty of surprises left if watching the movies in order. You lose some surprises you gain some... won't it be fun to see people in the future watch the movies 1-6 and see what they think.

stillakid
09-11-2005, 02:14 PM
Possible ? No. - First off - to the people who have already seen Eps 4-6 and we all know Vader's name is Anakin... so how are you going to write a story about a kid/young adult named Anakin and not know what his ultimate fate is.... not possible. What are you going to do change his name ???? That would be stupid.
No, it's not stupid. That's the box an author puts himself into when beginning a story in the middle. For audiences who have seen the "middle," there are certainly some things that they will already know about. However, the author is still beholden to LINEAR STORY TIME, which means that he is obligated to not divulge any secrets, surprises, or mysteries that are to be revealed in later times. What you're thinking of is a situation in which the author completely dismisses this obligation in favor of giving the audience some titillating thrills out of a misplaced perception that we're not interested in having a 6-part series that makes sense to watch in episode order.

Look at it this way. Let's say that Hitchcock made a sequel to one of his mysteries where he just came right out and told you who the killer was in this hypothetical prequel. What fun would the "original" mystery be then? Not much, I'd suspect. Oh sure, you could view the original "in a whole new light," as many have suggested as a rationalization for this Prequel disaster, and I suppose that is true. But this is an after market necessity driven by the author's failure to live up to his obligation to the demands of the storyline.

That's what you are not thinking of.


Here's what you are not thinking of. We've all seen 4-6 and we know the Vader story.... BUT if you watch the movies in order 1-6 without any prior knowledge there are many surprises .. think about it. You do lose the secret that Vader is Lukes father no doubt
Which, by your own claim, is what the saga is all about, so no matter what else you might "gain," isn't the entire point of the saga compromised just because some fanboys like to jizz off to seeing a version of Darth Vader in the Prequels?



... here's what you gain...

You don't know Palpatine is the Sith Lord who becomes the Emperor... nope. We know because the Emperors name ...but watching 1-6 this will be a surprise.
Well, it was never really meant as a "reveal" in the OT, so I fail to see what point you're making. The Prequels don't "ruin" anything in the OT regarding this storypoint. Nothing is "gained" nor lost.


You don't know Anankin turns evil.. you don't know Anakin is going to turn bad and start killing Jedi.. that's a shock.
Uh, again, not a problem when considering what comes later on in the story. Although, if Anakin's name is connected in anyway with the last name of Skywalker in the Prequels, then Obi Wan's story in ANH to Luke about his father would blow the whole thing. Which is why the Prequels would have to proceed without ever mentioning the Skywalker name. Not impossible and not easy to accomplish either. But not impossible. When did we ever learn Yoda's last name, for instance? Or Chewbacca's? I'm not suggesting that it's the absolutely best scenario, but that's the box an author puts himself into when beginning in the middle of the story. Some compromises have to be made and some hard work has to be done to make it all work the way it should. Instead, Lucas opted out of any real work and just threw down his "riffing" on the page (his own admission).


You also don't know Anakin is going to be horribly injured and require a kick-butt looking suit that keeps his mangled body alive... think about how cool it would be to see Vader for the first time coming off that operating table .. and its that kid you watched since Ep 1... big "Holy Crap" moment.
And herein lies the answer as to why you think like you do (ignoring story) and why Lucas did what he did (he too ignored story). You're in this for gratuitous cotton-candy thrills...video game moments and superficial imagery. I'm looking at the story and how a competent writer would have approached the material.

But again, the point here is that the carefully constructed mystery and reveal of the OT is blown the moment that Anakin and Vader are connected in the Prequels. No matter how "kick butt" it may be, it is still wrong in a literary sense.


You don't know the Jedi are going to get killed and the Republic fall..
True, but again, that doesn't contradict the OT in any way, so I fail to see the point of bringing it up.



you don't know the clones will turn and become Stormtroopers...
No, true. And while it certainly doesn't directly contradict anything in the OT, it still is blatantly stupid. In one man's opinion, the concept of a Republic which has been usurped opens up the issue of a "conscripted" army and how the naive and innocent are forced into fighting for a power that they may not necessarily agree with. But using clones, which are basically representative of non-individual automatons, destroys this sub-text which the OT was so full of.


You don't know Anakin will get married and have twins ! You don't know it will be twin babies.
True, when viewing the Prequels first, this is all a "surprise," but not particularly riveting in that sense. It's just something that happens. However, because the character of Anakin and Vader are linked in the Prequels as they stand, the surprise reveal regarding Leia's and Luke's relationship is ruined resulting in a "meh" moment for any future audiences. Why give that secret away in episode 3 when there is a carefully constructed "reveal" of the secret that already exists in episode 6? This makes ZERO sense.


You would cheer the return of Yoda... and wonder at first, if he's gone mad (the reveal of Yoda as a Jedi Master is another surprise lost).
Yeah, well, this is the one element that I think Lucas would have been unable to work around. The only solution would have been to keep Yoda out of the Prequels altogether...which is not an impossiblity, but it would have been an interesting choice. When you think about it, the only role that Yoda had to fill in any pre-story was in being Obi Wan's teacher. But if we joined the story at about the time that Obi and Anakin meet, then Yoda could have essentially been out of the picture at that point. No real reason to keep him around, thus preserving the mystery in ESB.



You get to see Boba Fett all grown up as a bounty hunter and Chewie comes back friends of Han now.
Oh goodie! Like we need to feel that sense of "remember him, honey!?" when we sit down to watch what was a sweeping epic. :rolleyes: Boba Fett used to be a very cool character, mainly because he was shrouded in mystery. But gratuitously shoehorning his past into the pre-story blew that out of the water, and in a very idiotic way at that.

Don't even get me started on Chewie. What a waste that gratuitous cameo was in ROTS. Pointless and dumb. Waste of screentime. And while we're on it, why praytell, was there a battle on Kassyyk anyway? That made NO sense at all.


so see - there are plenty of surprises left if watching the movies in order. You lose some surprises you gain some... won't it be fun to see people in the future watch the movies 1-6 and see what they think.
No, I don't see. You failed to make a point. But I'll give you some points for at least giving it some effort. Want to try again?

Markimus
09-11-2005, 04:13 PM
[quote=stillakid] However, the author is still beholden to LINEAR STORY TIME, which means that he is obligated to not divulge any secrets, surprises, or mysteries that are to be revealed in later times. What you're thinking of is a situation in which the author completely dismisses this obligation in favor of giving the audience some titillating thrills out of a misplaced perception that we're not interested in having a 6-part series that makes sense to watch in episode order."

Wait a minute -- You just could not be more wrong. If Lucas wanted to make a movie with cheap thrills and "fanboy" moments as you claim... then we would see tons of epic battles with the clones - every movie would have massive lightsaber battles .. the fight with the Wookies would last half the movie and Wookies would be in all 3 movies because they are so popular... each movie would have a massive space battle with young Han Solo and Lando...
but instead Lucas stuck to his story... which included a lot of political and romantic moments that many people did not like. Lucas has always said .. and if you watch any of his movies... he keeps those "effects" moments in the background to propel his movies... using them to drive his story.

AND he creates new surprises.. you still don't know that Vader will end up killing the Emperor... in fact this becomes a bigger surprise because you know their long history together so you doubt he would turn on the Emperor his mentor that he sacrificed so much for !!

I would argue that the prequels help a big flaw in the OT... what's that flaw ? Why does Vader so quickly turn good/soft ? It happens fairly quickly - and Vader was such an evil guy before this. It's the act of a good person to sacrifice himself to save his son...but now we know that VAder was Anakin a good person - who was manipulated and makes some mistakes... and fell to the dark side because he wanted to save people .. his Mom and Padme.
NOW IT MAKES MORE SENSE THAT LUKE COULD SO EASILY TURN VADER BACK TO GOOD. and once again Vader/Anakin wants to save a life of a loved one/family member.. all comes together.

You dismiss the new surprises that Lucas creates with the new movies far too easily. It is a big surprise that Palpatine is the Emperor .. Anakins fall...etc.

The arc of the 6 movies is the rise of Anakin to a powerful Jedi... his turn to the dark side and betrayal of the Jedi... His son rising to power and redeeming his father - Anakin who eventually fulfills his destiny of destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the force. Its not just about Vader being Lukes father.

You begrude Lucas for starting his story in the middle... well, he wrote a huge backstory for his movies - that became eps 1-3.. creating his unique universe and deep characters.... Lucas looks at it as a complete movie.. 1-6 as one movie and so should you. You are not using your imagination enough to be able to see what it would be like to watch in that order and the surprises to be found that way.... instead you are holding onto the images from the OT from your childhood with a death grip. Let go .. imagine it as a whole and enjoy.


[quote=stillakid]But again, the point here is that the carefully constructed mystery and reveal of the OT is blown the moment that Anakin and Vader are connected in the Prequels. No matter how "kick butt" it may be, it is still wrong in a literary sense.

Why is it wrong to reveal Vader at the end of ROTS in a litaerary sense??? That makes zero sense... This is crazy talk !:razz: That reveal is its own carefully constructed mystery !! You don't know this is going to happen.


[quote=stillakid]True, when viewing the Prequels first, this is all a "surprise," but not particularly riveting in that sense. It's just something that happens.

The birth of twins is not a surprise to you now.. because you knew it was going to happen ! This is what I mean, you need to use your imagination and look at the movies in order... with fresh eyes...

[quote=stillakid]. The only solution would have been to keep Yoda out of the Prequels altogether...which is not an impossiblity, but it would have been an interesting choice.

I'm starting to see what the script of your version of the prequels would look like... here we go :

Stillakids Version of Episodes 1-6

Theres a kid but we don't know his name.. he's just called Jedi X( so we don't reveal he's a skywalker)...who becomes a Jedi .. runs around doing stuff... there is no Yoda...no Jango Fett.... clones are just there, we don't know why.... at the end of episode 3 .. he just suddenly decides to be evil and scowls and huffs...he never has any children... the end.
Next movie ANH... oh there's Vader.. wow- who's that new powerful bad guy? What happened to Jedi X? why did he disappear?...
ESB - we learn Vader is Luke's father? and Vader is Jedi X ? But how could that be? We never saw Jedi X have any kids .. and how did he get in this Vader outfit ?? what happened to him... how stupid ! Gee.. a lot seemed to happenoff-screen.. I feel cheated. What a crappy surprise... this doesn't make sense !
ROTJ - I'm not watching this movie.. because they just threw Jedi X in a suit and called him VAder without any explanations...this sucks

Do you see how silly that would be ?

Please sticking to your own rules of not revealing any secrets explain your version of the prequels... I could use a good laugh.:razz:



]

stillakid
09-11-2005, 06:08 PM
Um, wow...I'm not even sure where to begin here. (where's that "slap on the forehead" emoticon?)


Wait a minute -- You just could not be more wrong. If Lucas wanted to make a movie with cheap thrills and "fanboy" moments as you claim... then we would see tons of epic battles with the clones - every movie would have massive lightsaber battles .. the fight with the Wookies would last half the movie and Wookies would be in all 3 movies because they are so popular... each movie would have a massive space battle with young Han Solo and Lando...
Uh, isn't that basically what we got? By Lucas's own admission, the only reason Fett was even in the Prequels was because he knew how much of a "fan favorite" that character had grown to be. The original backstory concept for the character had nothing to do with being a genetic donor for a clone army. And the Wookies are about as gratuitious as that. And where were you for all the clone and space battles? Getting popcorn?

Sure, these aren't wall-to-wall, but I'm not sure exactly what your definition of fanboy moments really is. I'm suspecting that it has something to do with a Gamecube.



but instead Lucas stuck to his story... which included a lot of political and romantic moments that many people did not like. Lucas has always said .. and if you watch any of his movies... he keeps those "effects" moments in the background to propel his movies... using them to drive his story.
Well, that's what he used to do anyway. That's the younger, thinner Lucas you're remembering, not the commercially motivated one of today.


AND he creates new surprises.. you still don't know that Vader will end up killing the Emperor... in fact this becomes a bigger surprise because you know their long history together so you doubt he would turn on the Emperor his mentor that he sacrificed so much for !!
Exactly HOW is this a "new" surprise? The issue here (or so I thought...and we are WAY off topic...sorry about that mods) is how the PT contradicts the OT. In no way is the relationship b/n Palps and Vader a surprise and the "surprise" martyrdom of Vader doesn't happen until the end of ROTJ. So again, what point are you exactly trying to prove here?


I would argue that the prequels help a big flaw in the OT... what's that flaw ? Why does Vader so quickly turn good/soft ? It happens fairly quickly - and Vader was such an evil guy before this. It's the act of a good person to sacrifice himself to save his son...but now we know that VAder was Anakin a good person - who was manipulated and makes some mistakes... and fell to the dark side because he wanted to save people .. his Mom and Padme.
Well, for starters, it wasn't a very quick transformation. Beginning with ESB, we see that he already has begun that process of "rebellion" against the Emperor's wishes. Palps wants Luke dead, but ostensibly because of fatherly pangs, "Vader" suggests the alternative so that his son can live. His transformation into redemption begins there and continues in a logical and steady progression.

As far as how the PT plays into this, the character of Darth Vader we see in the OT is far different from the angry, bipolar, and random personality of Anakin. There is a definitive disconnect between what is supposed to be the foundation of Vader (in the PT) and who we know Vader to really be (in the OT). The Vader of the OT was far more steady and logical. He didn't fall to the darkside because of a silly longing for dead people. While we can't know for certain because it isn't actually written in there, he doesn't seem to be motivated to evil out of intense anger or misplaced aggression as the PT would have us believe. The Vader of the Prequels is an entirely different character than the one in the Original Trilogy.


NOW IT MAKES MORE SENSE THAT LUKE COULD SO EASILY TURN VADER BACK TO GOOD. and once again Vader/Anakin wants to save a life of a loved one/family member.. all comes together.
Well, Luke didn't "easily" turn him, but that's beside the point. And while your 1+1=2 conclusion works within the context you've established, I would disagree with the context you've established.


You dismiss the new surprises that Lucas creates with the new movies far too easily. It is a big surprise that Palpatine is the Emperor .. Anakins fall...etc.
Um, I'm not really dismissing them. Again, the point here, or so I thought, was to discuss the continuity flaws the the PT exhibit when compared with the established foundation of action set up by the OT. So sure, to a new viewer, seeing Palpatine become the bad guy might be a surprise I suppose...not that Lucas hid that one very well. You'd have to be a moron to not figure it out until ROTS...or very very young I'd imagine. As a writer, Lucas has all the subtlety of a freight train. The same goes for Anakin's "fall" or whatever you want to call it. As I see it, when we meet the little sh** in AOTC, he's already a class A pri ck, full of himself and hardly likeable. Who'd be rooting for him and who really feels any empathy for him as he steamrolls his way through the story like a disaffected 2 year old? Not much of a surprise in the least when he drops to his knees and robotically spouts out his allegiance to evil just moments after whining, "What have I done?" Yeah, big shock there. :rolleyes:


The arc of the 6 movies is the rise of Anakin to a powerful Jedi... his turn to the dark side and betrayal of the Jedi... His son rising to power and redeeming his father - Anakin who eventually fulfills his destiny of destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the force. Its not just about Vader being Lukes father.
Okay. I don't necessarily agree, but let's assume for a second that I do. So what?


You begrude Lucas for starting his story in the middle... I didn't begrudge him anything of the sort. I merely pointed out that he started in the middle which made the task of constructing a prequel story within the confines of the established continuity more difficult. If I begrudge him anything it would be his utter contempt for the Writer's Guild and Hollywood in general thus causing him to cast off qualified writers who would have known how to do this. I begrudge his arrogance and ego for thinking that nobody would care or notice sub-par quality.


well, he wrote a huge backstory for his movies - that became eps 1-3..
Well, I think I know what you're getting at and I heartily disagree with you. He had the faintest of ideas about what the Prequels would be and was simply making each episode up as he went along. There was no big master plan as you imply. I'm not sure where you got that idea.


creating his unique universe and deep characters.... Lucas looks at it as a complete movie.. 1-6 as one movie and so should you. You are not using your imagination enough to be able to see what it would be like to watch in that order and the surprises to be found that way.
Oh, I see now. You want me to fill in the gaps...perhaps even, ahem...rationalize and imagine what isn't there so that I can fool myself into believing that this is a well told story. Nice! Uh, no. Sorry. You're free to do that. I could care less. It's just my choice not to. Thanks for asking though. :)


.. instead you are holding onto the images from the OT from your childhood with a death grip. Let go .. imagine it as a whole and enjoy.
Oh, I see I think. You think that somehow I'm trapped with an idea of what the Prequels should have been because of what the OT suggested it should be? Then you are absolutely CORRECT! Congratulations! :yes: You're finally getting it. I am basing my opinion of the Prequels solely on the established continuity of the Original films! YES! By jove, I think he's got it! I'm so happy for you. :thumbsup:



.. Why is it wrong to reveal Vader at the end of ROTS in a litaerary sense??? That makes zero sense... This is crazy talk !:razz: That reveal is its own carefully constructed mystery !! You don't know this is going to happen.
Um, hmm. Let's try this one more time. Vader's identity is carefully hidden away and then slowly revealed in a dramatic fashion in the OT films. Ta da! Mystery, drama, intrigue. Cool literary stuff, eh?

Cut to a Prequel in which the mystery is tossed out on the table with all the subtlety of an elephant. So in Episode III, we learn EVERYTHING about the identity of Darth Vader. So then what exactly is the point of dancing around the question for the characters in the OT films? To suggest that ROTS makes sense with this issue is the crazy talk.



.. The birth of twins is not a surprise to you now.. because you knew it was going to happen ! This is what I mean, you need to use your imagination and look at the movies in order... with fresh eyes...
What the h...?! are you talking about? I'm getting lost now. First of all, the birth of the twins I suppose is a surprise because we only knew Padme was pregnant. But big whoop. Twins. It's not like that "surprise" has one shred of meaning until much later in the OT. And for that matter, once again Lucas lets the cat out of the bag thus destroying a carefully tuned mystery. Now when Yoda utters that there is another, there is no mystery, no suspense. Big deal once again. How about you rewatch the movies in order with your eyes open this time. :lipsrseal


.. I'm starting to see what the script of your version of the prequels would look like... here we go :

Stillakids Version of Episodes 1-6

Theres a kid but we don't know his name.. he's just called Jedi X( so we don't reveal he's a skywalker)...who becomes a Jedi .. runs around doing stuff... there is no Yoda...no Jango Fett.... clones are just there, we don't know why.... at the end of episode 3 .. he just suddenly decides to be evil and scowls and huffs...he never has any children... the end.
Next movie ANH... oh there's Vader.. wow- who's that new powerful bad guy? What happened to Jedi X? why did he disappear?...
ESB - we learn Vader is Luke's father? and Vader is Jedi X ? But how could that be? We never saw Jedi X have any kids .. and how did he get in this Vader outfit ?? what happened to him... how stupid ! Gee.. a lot seemed to happenoff-screen.. I feel cheated. What a crappy surprise... this doesn't make sense !
ROTJ - I'm not watching this movie.. because they just threw Jedi X in a suit and called him VAder without any explanations...this sucks

Do you see how silly that would be ?...
Yeah, your version of it anyway. Clearly you've never written anything beyond these posts in your life. Run off and write a few screenplays and then come on back and we'll talk again. :whip:


.. Please sticking to your own rules of not revealing any secrets explain your version of the prequels... I could use a good laugh.:razz:

I already have. Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Big surprise. :yes:

JediTricks
09-11-2005, 06:14 PM
Nope, I wondered that myself too, but if you look closely at the first pic you can't even see Shaw's mouth or chin because it is engulfed in the neck piece. And the 2nd shot his mouth and chin are clearly visible. It isn't even the the neck part of it that would be out of frame if it was because the "mouth" part of the neck piece would be sticking way up in the air for you to see over his mouth. And on that note they probably took it off because it would obstruct the closeup of Luke hanging his head down. I drew up a comparison photo and it shows where the neckpiece should be.You're probably right. However, if Shaw's head had tilted back in the second shot, this is a higher and tighter camera angle, then the neck piece might be lower down his neck and would be out of the shot. Think about your head when you go and get your haircut, specifically just before and after you lean your head back in the sink, your face moves up but your neck stays in place, so something that was at your mouth now is around your neck and well under your chin, and if someone had a shot pointing across your face the camera would be well above anything around your neck (especially if the camera had zoomed in some as well).

Take a look at this shot earlier (attached) in the scene, you can see the upper half of Shaw's face but no neck collar, naturally it wouldn't be in the shot, so if Shaw then tilts his head back it'd be in the shot but the collar wouldn't. It's different angles, different amounts of zoom, stuff like that - I'm not saying I *know* I'm right, but I think I could be.

scruffziller
09-11-2005, 07:34 PM
You're probably right. However, if Shaw's head had tilted back in the second shot, this is a higher and tighter camera angle, then the neck piece might be lower down his neck and would be out of the shot. Think about your head when you go and get your haircut, specifically just before and after you lean your head back in the sink, your face moves up but your neck stays in place, so something that was at your mouth now is around your neck and well under your chin, and if someone had a shot pointing across your face the camera would be well above anything around your neck (especially if the camera had zoomed in some as well).
*
Take a look at this shot earlier (attached) in the scene, you can see the upper half of Shaw's face but no neck collar, naturally it wouldn't be in the shot, so if Shaw then tilts his head back it'd be in the shot but the collar wouldn't. It's different angles, different amounts of zoom, stuff like that - I'm not saying I *know* I'm right, but I think I could be.
*
But in that shot (the way you have it there) the nose area is totally gone, to get the collar out of the frame. The head is barely even there to get the collar out of view. The way the collar is,* if you can see the nose you can see the collar.* And with the mouth.* The mouth and CHIN (and just beneath the chin) are CLEARLY visible in the last shot so the collar can't even be there if you see the mouth and not the collar.*The neck piece was a tight fit to the mouth around the neck for the mask because his breathing was essential to it.* So I don't believe it would behave the way you say it would*about falling away from the face.* In the last shot, with what we can see of his face there is no angle that could be implented for the collar to be tipped out of frame.*Plus too, Anikin just died*and leans back even further so the neck piece should*be even more visible.*This probably doesn't prove anything put here is a pic of Shaw without the collar.* And as he leans back as he dies. It shows clearly that the neck piece is around the back of the head too so as the head moves so does it and stays in the same posistion. I am more convinced than ever.

JediTricks
09-12-2005, 08:41 PM
But in that shot (the way you have it there) the nose area is totally gone, to get the collar out of the frame. The head is barely even there to get the collar out of view.I know, but take a second to try this: while sitting upright, take your hand, open it flat, and while facing forwards hold your hand horizontally to the floor against the top of your cheekbone just underneath your eye, now without moving your hand tilt your head until you are looking straight upwards - at this point you should notice that your hand is slightly lower than your chin. Now, while still looking up, with your hand horiztonal again put it against the side of your face just beneath your eye (you should be touching your cheekbone), then without moving your hand in the air tilt your head to face forwards - now you should notice that your hand is almost at the top of your head.

I'm hoping that will shed some light on how the camera angle might shoot down the face while it's tilted back yet over the collar around the neck.



The way the collar is,* if you can see the nose you can see the collar.* And with the mouth.* The mouth and CHIN (and just beneath the chin) are CLEARLY visible in the last shot so the collar can't even be there if you see the mouth and not the collar.*The neck piece was a tight fit to the mouth around the neck for the mask because his breathing was essential to it.*I don't believe that's accurate, the neckpiece is not that tight around the actor's neck, I believe we've seen both Shaw and Hayden's faces move higher and lower in it so that the breather tubes are at their noses or below their mouths. The collar piece moves with the shoulders and neck, not the face.


Plus too, Anikin just died*and leans back even further so the neck piece should*be even more visible. ... And as he leans back as he dies. It shows clearly that the neck piece is around the back of the head too so as the head moves so does it and stays in the same posistion. I am more convinced than ever.The angle looking at Shaw vs looking over his shoulder is clearly different, he's not at the same angle from one shot to the other, this I think is what Stilla was talking about having Shaw propped up, in the shots where we're looking at Luke's face Shaw and the camera seem to be higher up than when we're looking down at Shaw on the ramp. You yourself said the last shot looking down at Shaw was not the same take so it's not impossible that they changed the height to accomodate the camera or something (I'm no expert, but Vader's low on that ramp, wouldn't the shot over his shoulder have to start beneath the floor unless they move him?).

Markimus
09-12-2005, 09:58 PM
Well, for starters, it wasn't a very quick transformation. Beginning with ESB, we see that he already has begun that process of "rebellion" against the Emperor's wishes. Palps wants Luke dead, but ostensibly because of fatherly pangs, "Vader" suggests the alternative so that his son can live. His transformation into redemption begins there and continues in a logical and steady progression.


I disagree about why Vader convinces Palpy to keep Luke alive. Vader wants to turn Luke to his side (still the dark side) - so they can destroy the Emperor and rule the galaxy together as father and son... Did you miss it when Vader said that in ESB ? He's not saving Luke just to save his son. Not until the very end. If you really scrutinize it... like you seem so willing to do for the PT... it is a bit of a jump for the malicious Vader to grow a soft side.

Since you believe the PT damages the Vader of the OT... let's examine the end of ROTJ comparing with the PT and without it.

Let's examine why Vader turns on the Emperor and saves Luke. From the OT - he does it because Luke is his son and he does not want to see him killed. Ok - that's fine. Its not a bad reason and it works. BUT -You COULD argue -why would the supremely evil Vader care about a son he did not know he had and did not raise? Why would he be so willing to sacrifice his life of power to save this boy he hardly knows... Then Luke gets Vader to help him and saves Vader from his evil life and makes him good again.. Vader good ? After all the people he has killed? One good deed redeems an apparent lifetime of evil ?? How can this be? A bit of a stretch...but its Star Wars we forgive it. Not to mention the question.. Luke senses good still in Vader. Good still in Vader ? How can that be ? He's just purely evil ..

Now when you add what we know from the PT - we see that Vader was really manipulated into the role he is serving for the Emperor. In a lot of ways he is punishing himself for killing Padme (so he thinks) - by taking this subserviant role. Punishing himself and those around him. Its a sad lonely unhappy life Vader has. At the end of Jedi- Vader knows the Emperor's plan is to have Luke replace him as his apprentice just like Anakin took Dooku's place. He doesn't want to see his son have to serve like he has. We know Vader really was not always pure evil and once was a good Jedi who saved his Master many times. Luke is a member of his family.. a part of Padme...the woman he sacrificed everything to try and save. Vader is probably reminded of Padme when he sees Luke. Big emotional attachment to Luke comes from this fact. Anakin wanted to use his powers to save Padme .. to save his Mom.. and now he can finally get it right and save Luke.

So we see that trying to save the people he loves created Vader and ultimately destroys him redeeming the good soul that is Anakin. Anakin finally fulfills the destiny that Qui Gon and others sensed in him as he destroys the Sith Lord and brings balance to the force.
See, the PT helps flesh out Vader... his actions are more understandable...it doesn't hurt him he's a more complete character.




As far as how the PT plays into this, the character of Darth Vader we see in the OT is far different from the angry, bipolar, and random personality of Anakin. There is a definitive disconnect between what is supposed to be the foundation of Vader (in the PT) and who we know Vader to really be (in the OT). The Vader of the OT was far more steady and logical. He didn't fall to the darkside because of a silly longing for dead people. While we can't know for certain because it isn't actually written in there, he doesn't seem to be motivated to evil out of intense anger or misplaced aggression as the PT would have us believe. The Vader of the Prequels is an entirely different character than the one in the Original Trilogy.


Yeah he's different...differnt than the Anakin from Eps 1-3.. its 20 years later !! Know anyone who doesn't change in some ways after 20 years ? Especially from young adult to older adult? Didn't think so. Here's what you OT hard-liners can never get over. Your perception of what Vader is formed in Eps 4-6 as a purely evil omnipotent villain. You can't accept that there is a living human with flaws and fears and loves and loss beneath the mask. He's not perfect. He's not perfectly EVIL.

You hate that Lucas made Vader sympathetic... a real person, but in story telling - it's always more interesting when you see that there is no clear cut black and white, good and evil. Knowing why someone is evil as opposed to the simplistic and cartoonish .. "he was born evil".. or "he just IS evil".. the simple way is the easy way- knowing why is the more interesting story. Good and evil is never that simple - in real life or in good story telling.
Lucas was very brave to even make these PT movies because of the response he knew he would get from people like yourself who refuse to look beyond the ultra evil Lord Vader.
Lucas did write this back story long before the prequels were written. He has stated this many times...he made detailed notes... he always knew the real story and motivations of Vader. Which is basic writing 101.... know your characters.... know their history.




If I begrudge him anything it would be his utter contempt for the Writer's Guild and Hollywood in general thus causing him to cast off qualified writers who would have known how to do this. I begrudge his arrogance and ego for thinking that nobody would care or notice sub-par quality.


Um. Have you seen a lot of the movies that these "Writer's Guild" writers create ? It's part of the reason the movie industry is not doing very well. Bad writers writing bad movies. I don't subscribe to the idea that getting guild writers instantly make a movie or story good. Most of them go to the same schools and are taught the same formulaic ways to write. Putting plot points at certain page numbers.. etc. You can watch most of the crap on TV or in the movies and see that ALL guild writers are not great.

Plus - do you remeber who wrote Star Wars -ANH all alone ? Yeah... it was Lucas. Oh wait he was in the guild then so that made him instantly good... (sarcasm =fun).:razz:

I'd love to see you write up a treatment of how you think the PT should have gone.. following your own rules.. since you think Lucas did it so poorly - let's see your version.

stillakid
09-13-2005, 06:47 AM
The angle looking at Shaw vs looking over his shoulder is clearly different, he's not at the same angle from one shot to the other, this I think is what Stilla was talking about having Shaw propped up, in the shots where we're looking at Luke's face Shaw and the camera seem to be higher up than when we're looking down at Shaw on the ramp. You yourself said the last shot looking down at Shaw was not the same take so it's not impossible that they changed the height to accomodate the camera or something (I'm no expert, but Vader's low on that ramp, wouldn't the shot over his shoulder have to start beneath the floor unless they move him?).

Yeah, we do "cheats" like that all the time. The catch phrase on set is, "If they notice this, we're doing something wrong." I suppose that's why I never put a whole lot of emphasis on this as being something to take much interest in. Because I figured it was a cheat for story expediency and to accomodate the angles.

When "Vader" gets put on the ground, there really is no way for him to be sitting at that angle for that long without propping himself up with his own arms (story explanation), which doesn't make much sense give his medical state. Or he was propped up (reality) by something else behind his back just so the shots made sense. They couldn't very well have Vader laying down flat on the floor. The bell of the helmet wouldn't allow it and the sequence wouldn't have been as melodramatic as it was. Perhaps more realistic, but this isn't Saving Private Ryan either.

So when the camera turns to face Luke for the over (the shoulder), Sebastian has to appear dead, so given that they propped him up for the first shots, they couldn't have him lying flat on the floor all of the sudden. The "solution" was to keep him propped up, but have his head roll back as if all muscle control had gone.

But what of the neck piece? I wish I had a Vader Reveal Helmet (soon?) and I could test this out to see if I could make the angle work with it on so that the piece couldn't be seen. It seems a little odd that they'd remove that piece just for the death shot, but I suppose anything is possible. If we want to get really crazy and create an "interpretation" out of it's absence, we could say something to the effect that it was gone because Vader had left Anakin's soul. That final shot has only the remnants of Anakin being looked upon by his son Luke who looks past his father's terrible past to see only the good man who was his father. Talk about rationalization! :thumbsup: I should join the other side!:love:

stillakid
09-13-2005, 07:22 AM
You are wrong on every count here, and I'm about to explain why:


I disagree about why Vader convinces Palpy to keep Luke alive. Vader wants to turn Luke to his side (still the dark side) - so they can destroy the Emperor and rule the galaxy together as father and son... Did you miss it when Vader said that in ESB ? He's not saving Luke just to save his son. Not until the very end. If you really scrutinize it... like you seem so willing to do for the PT... it is a bit of a jump for the malicious Vader to grow a soft side.
Did you miss it when Luke tries to convince his father to "come with me" out on the gantry? It wasn't any of the words that Vader spoke that tells the audience what is going on in Vader's mind. It is the moment after Luke goes away that is so telling. He is there alone, pondering everything. Which is truly amazing, the sheer amount of introspection and emotion that Prowse manages to play without the benefit of using his own face to do it. This happens again at the very end, where without any words at all, all the pain and anguish that Vader is feeling is SEEN on that mask which is otherwise unmoving and unchanging. Quite remarkable.

So anyway, this is not a sudden leap as you describe. Vader is not simply trying to rule the world. He has a vested interest in saving a son he didn't know he had, which is his ONLY true motivation. Killing Palps is only part of the ruse to save Luke, not the end goal. As you put it, if saving lives is what he's all about, then galactic conquest isn't the point.




Now when you add what we know from the PT - we see that Vader was really manipulated into the role he is serving for the Emperor. In a lot of ways he is punishing himself for killing Padme (so he thinks) - by taking this subserviant role. Punishing himself and those around him. Its a sad lonely unhappy life Vader has.
Anakin wasn't "manipulated" into serving the Emperor as the Prequels show it. He was a crybaby bipolar moron with a sense of entitlement that he should be more than he is. And he did that all on his own, blaming Obi Wan for "holding him back" and such. Palpatine was just there to recognize Haydakin for the idiot he was and pick up the pieces when the kid was most vulnerable. In fact, talk about "sudden" change of heart that you condemn Vader/Anakin for in the OT, explain why just moments after anguishing, "What have I done!?" why Haydakin would drop to his knees and robotically spout out his sudden allegiance to evil? What a crock o' sh** that was. Nobody manipulated him into that. It was just sloppy writing by Lucas.



See, the PT helps flesh out Vader... his actions are more understandable...it doesn't hurt him he's a more complete character.
More complete?! Hardly. Haydakin turned the myterious thoughtful Darth Vader of the OT into a one-dimensional comic book character. He's just a dumb kid full of unjustified angst who inexplicably sides with the uber-bad guy. Not a whole lot of dimension there to speak of.





Yeah he's different...differnt than the Anakin from Eps 1-3.. its 20 years later !! Know anyone who doesn't change in some ways after 20 years ? Especially from young adult to older adult? Didn't think so. Here's what you OT hard-liners can never get over. Your perception of what Vader is formed in Eps 4-6 as a purely evil omnipotent villain. You can't accept that there is a living human with flaws and fears and loves and loss beneath the mask. He's not perfect. He's not perfectly EVIL.
You couldn't be more wrong about that. On the contrary, the Vader of the OT is VERY complex, unlike the simple Haydakin of the Prequels. You're describing Darth Maul.

You hate that Lucas made Vader sympathetic... a real person, but in story telling - it's always more interesting when you see that there is no clear cut black and white, good and evil. Knowing why someone is evil as opposed to the simplistic and cartoonish .. "he was born evil".. or "he just IS evil".. the simple way is the easy way- knowing why is the more interesting story. Good and evil is never that simple - in real life or in good story telling.
See my point above. Darth Vader of the OT has always been sympathetic. But Lucas threatened to ruin that with the ridiculous explanation of how he got there with that Expanded Universe version which we call The Prequels.


Lucas was very brave to even make these PT movies because of the response he knew he would get from people like yourself who refuse to look beyond the ultra evil Lord Vader.
Again, 100% incorrect in your accessment of what I think.


Lucas did write this back story long before the prequels were written. He has stated this many times...he made detailed notes... he always knew the real story and motivations of Vader. Which is basic writing 101.... know your characters.... know their history..
Where are these alleged notes? Have you seen them?


Um. Have you seen a lot of the movies that these "Writer's Guild" writers create ? It's part of the reason the movie industry is not doing very well. Bad writers writing bad movies. I don't subscribe to the idea that getting guild writers instantly make a movie or story good. Most of them go to the same schools and are taught the same formulaic ways to write. Putting plot points at certain page numbers.. etc. You can watch most of the crap on TV or in the movies and see that ALL guild writers are not great.
Certainly true, but if you are blaming writers for turning out bad movies, you have a very twisted view of how the Hollywood system works.

But more to the point, Frank Darabont was slated to write Episode I but was "turned away" by Lucas himself after Darabont insisted on being paid under the WGA contract. Solely because Lucas holds a grudge against DGA, WGA, and IATSE for his "bad treatment" during American Graffiti and Star Wars, he refuses to deal with "Hollywood" anytime he has the chance, which is mostly. And if you know anything at all about story and great writing, the name Darabont should tell you something about how moronic Lucas is.


Plus - do you remeber who wrote Star Wars -ANH all alone ? Yeah... it was Lucas. Oh wait he was in the guild then so that made him instantly good... (sarcasm =fun).:razz:
Lucas did not write ANH "all alone." He did write the first drafts, which were simply attrocious. And everyone else thought so. So needing to get the screenplay into shape in a hurry, Lucas asked his friends from American Graffiti, Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz, to come in to fix it, which they did thankfully.

I gladly welcome honest discussion, but if you're not going to be prepared, it is just a waste of everyone's time and quickly becomes not very enjoyable. If you have something valid to suggest, I'm more than happy to hear it and I look forward to talking with you about these issues again at a later date after you've taken some more time to prepare. Thank you. :)


I'd love to see you write up a treatment of how you think the PT should have gone.. following your own rules.. since you think Lucas did it so poorly - let's see your version.
I'm not going to right here and right now for a couple of reasons. The first being, I have nothing to prove. Second, I have too much of my own work to do. I simply don't have the time right now to devote to "fixing" somebody else's mistakes. Not that I don't want to. I think it would be interesting to remake the Prequels eventually just so I have something worthy to show my children instead of the slop that we have now. It would also be nice to show Lucas and fanboys how it could actually be done correctly. Like an "I told you so." But that requires time, money, and the inclination which doesn't come in abundance right at the moment. So you'll just have to enjoy what you've got. But if you are that interested in my ideas concerning the Prequels, there are extensive archives at SSG where you can look up every post I've ever made and read all about it. So learning about how I'd do it is entirely up to you if you're willing to do the work.


Last edited by Lord_Malakite : Today at 08:54 AM. Reason: Removed some stuff that could be considered personal attacks. ...but weren't. It was just good advice. :)

2-1B
09-13-2005, 12:24 PM
Did you miss it when Luke tries to convince his father to "come with me" out on the gantry? It wasn't any of the words that Vader spoke that tells the audience what is going on in Vader's mind. It is the moment after Luke goes away that is so telling. He is there alone, pondering everything. Which is truly amazing, the sheer amount of introspection and emotion that Prowse manages to play without the benefit of using his own face to do it. This happens again at the very end, where without any words at all, all the pain and anguish that Vader is feeling is SEEN on that mask which is otherwise unmoving and unchanging. Quite remarkable.

So anyway, this is not a sudden leap as you describe. Vader is not simply trying to rule the world. He has a vested interest in saving a son he didn't know he had, which is his ONLY true motivation. Killing Palps is only part of the ruse to save Luke, not the end goal. As you put it, if saving lives is what he's all about, then galactic conquest isn't the point.

Very true but that is from ROTJ while Mark was referring to ESB. In ESB Vader is definitely trying to rule the galaxy with his son at his side and that's how he tempts him to join the Dark Side. That, and the threat of death.

It wasn't until ROTJ when his coldness melted and saved Luke . . . and even then it wasn't until Luke was nearly killed. Even after the gantry scene, Vader still dueled Luke and taunted him into tasting the Dark Side.

stillakid
09-13-2005, 03:12 PM
Very true but that is from ROTJ while Mark was referring to ESB. In ESB Vader is definitely trying to rule the galaxy with his son at his side and that's how he tempts him to join the Dark Side. That, and the threat of death.

It wasn't until ROTJ when his coldness melted and saved Luke . . . and even then it wasn't until Luke was nearly killed. Even after the gantry scene, Vader still dueled Luke and taunted him into tasting the Dark Side.


Well, sort of, which is why Mark's assessment of Vader being a one-dimensional character (needing the Prequels to flesh him out) so missed the mark. :razz: So to speak.

Naturally, the Vader we got to know and love went through some evolution in character. In ANH, he is a fairly "young" go-getter with a single track mission...to defeat the Rebellion. But enter the knowledge that he has a son at the end of ANH. We miss his initial discovery and are treated instead to the ramifications of how it influences him and the way he views himself and this conflict. When it is suggested that Luke should be killed, the Vader of ANH would have run off to do it himself. But instead, our new Vader hesitates and "comes up with" an alternative that serves two purposes. The first would make Palpatine happy and the second would keep Luke alive. Vader needs to keep Palps content because the if Palps suspects that Vader has another agenda, Vader's life is in jeopardy. We actually see that suspicion play out in ROTJ when Palps asks, "Are you sure your feelings on this matter are clear?"

Vader's "path" to redemption begins the moment he begins resisting the Emperor's wishes in order to save his son's life. Fighting him is all just a part of the overall plan to save him, even if it means killing him. The very last thing that Vader wants is for Palpatine to own Luke too so Vader is not motivated by the need to "rule the galaxy as father and son," but rather to both save Luke's life and to "rescue" himself from the clutches of Palpatine.

This is a steady process that culminates in the rather dramatic sequence wherein Luke offers himself up as the martyr. Vader's allegiance to the status quo is facing the ultimate test and he chooses his own death over allowing Luke to die. And it all began long ago at the end of ANH.

2-1B
09-14-2005, 12:24 AM
I agree for the most part, I definitely agree that Vader is not one dimensional in the OT, he is a very developed character over the 3 films. :)

I still think Vader honestly wanted to rule the galaxy with his boy. I do agree that he didn't want Palps to get Luke for real, he did put on the ruse "I don't want the Emperor's prize damaged" (so he was towing the line there by telling people that Luke was for the Emperor but we learn from his private convo with Luke that Vader wanted Luke to join him.

For me, the PT adds even more appreciation for an already well developed character in Darth Vader. :)

Something I wonder though, what if Luke hadn't sprung out of the carbon freezing chamber, what if Vader actually DID deliver Luke to the Emperor ? The "I am a your Father" card is a real ace in the hole, but the whole thing could have backfired on Vader had he delivered the boy to Palps only to have Palps turn Luke and replace Vader as the Emperor's Apprentice.

JimJamBonds
09-14-2005, 12:45 AM
Good question there Caesar. :thumbsup: I think had Luke been frozen and delivered to Palps both he and Vader would have done their best to turn Luke to the dark side. Not only that but each each would have wanted Luke to be their apprentice and to (help) knock off the other guy. And I think for sure Palps would have said at some point 'yeah ahhh Luke just so you know Vader is your dady.' Of course Luke should then ask what role Palpers had in turning his father... I think if forced to pick Luke would go with his old man vs. the even crustier older dude.

Devo
09-14-2005, 06:53 PM
Here's my Idea on how to maintain some element of surprise between the prequel trilogy and Originals for what its worth.

The Pregnancy issue - I know the idea that Anakin thinks his unborn children died with their mother works to some extent but I personally would have prefered him not to know at all. To achieve this the twins would have to be concieved at the end of episode 2 (providing of course episode three takes place before any noticable bulge appeared) later in the third film we would see Padme taking a test the result of which we would not be privey to but one that would cause her some consternation. At some stage near the end of the film maybe on Mustafar she tries to tell Anakin why she had been acting so odd but Anakin says something evil that makes her stop and think better of it.
End Result - Nube's to the trilogy in generations to come would be geniunely surprised when yoda utters "no there is another" to Obi- Wan as even if they did twig she was pregnant they would have had no idea it was with twins.


The Anakin is Darth Vader issue - yes the biggy there no ideal solution to this one but heres my take. First of all I would excise Anakins jedi younglings Massacre as its a bit to much of a stretch to go from No Mace Palpatine must be put on trial for his crimes to yes Master Sure I'll kill the kids no probs, for me the jedi purge should have began after he was in the suit not before. So to the business of putting him in it (the suit that is), well the Obi v Anakin Duel would kick of in familiar fashion with Anakin throttlin Padme before launching himself at Obi Wan. My duel however would have a little less lava Surfin an a little more meaningfull dialogue on the nature of good and Evil (ie. NOT "to me the jedi are evil " the Jedi have their flaws these should have been pointed out in the duel by Anakin) in the end of course Obi Wan would be victorious.
One things that annoyed me with how they left it at this point in Rots was Obi wan just picks up the lightsaber and leaves his former friend to burn not even asking him to repent his sins as was suggested in the line of dialogue uttered by Darth when Luke tries to reach the good in him in Rotj "Obi Wan once thought as you have ". This is the scene as I would have liked it to have played out, as Anakin slowly slipped towards the Lava Obi-Wan would reach out to pull him to safty only to be rebuffed and told to finish him off .Unable to bring himself to do it he walks away.We are left with the Image of Anakin Catching fire as Obi walks away .From this scene we would jump to the Tantive where the future leaders of the rebellion(Bail , Mon Mothma etc) would be in discussions on how to proceed, Obi Wan Would Arrive with a baddly injured Padme and bring her to the med bay. At the meeting it would be decided that Yoda and Obi wan should go into exile and that Bail and Mon Mothma should remain in the senate to forment rebellion from within. Meanwhile in the medbay a stabalized Padme weeps in Obi Wan arms about Anakin as they stare out the window into space. The coda of the film would take place 7 or 8 months on from the last scene would see images of massacred Jedi baring wounds that could only have been inflicted by a lightsaber wielded by a master(perhaps we would hear a terrified description by a survivor in one of the scenes of a demon clad in black) other scenes would would echo Nazi triumph parades as the Emperor flexes his military muscles, the final two scenes would see Owen and beru cradling a newborn baby as they watch the sun rise while Bail Organa and his wife do like wise.
End result - With no suit fitting Scene ala Rots the nubes would be left with the impression that Anakin died on Mustafar and might not make the connection between him and the demon clad in black from the coda thus leaving the true identity of Darth Vader to be revealed later ie Esb also by only vaguely describing him in these scenes we save his dramatic first entrance for ANH .As for the kids the ending works twofold for both nubes and us oldies, to the nubes they see two sets of parents worrying about bringing up their children in these turbulent times we knowing what we do see there's hope for the future.

Glossary : Nubes= the next generation who would be the first to see
the films in order.

Oldies= Our generation who went and spoiled the whole god
damn thing by skipping to the end of the book so to
speak.


Would love some feedback on this from any one but especially Stilla & Markimus as it was their squabblin that got me thinking about it in the first place:squareeye

JimJamBonds
09-15-2005, 01:00 AM
Hayden "my mouth is full of cotton" Christiansen. :love:

It's not that he's hard to hear, he just doesn't like to open his mouth to talk which gives the illusion that he has his mouth schtuffed wiff cotton. :grin:

When I saw ROTS this past weekend I made a point of watching for this... and I didn't see it. Hayden's jaw movements seem to be quite normal, if anything in theory it should be harder to see Ewen's mouth move due to his beard. The ONE case where Hayden's mouth didn't move in time with the vocals is when we see Vader and Padme both in surgery. Vader lets out a long and loud scream where his mouth is barely open. This I don't think has anything to do with Hayden rather it was somebody's desire to add a scream to what was happening in post production. The scream was just to 'big' to go along with the Hayden's semi open mouth... I guess nobody has noticed this other then me. ;)

2-1B
09-15-2005, 01:10 AM
I caught it, it is a noticeably looped scream. Poorly done.

stillakid
09-15-2005, 07:14 AM
Good question there Caesar. :thumbsup: I think had Luke been frozen and delivered to Palps both he and Vader would have done their best to turn Luke to the dark side. Not only that but each each would have wanted Luke to be their apprentice and to (help) knock off the other guy. And I think for sure Palps would have said at some point 'yeah ahhh Luke just so you know Vader is your dady.' Of course Luke should then ask what role Palpers had in turning his father... I think if forced to pick Luke would go with his old man vs. the even crustier older dude.


I agree. We're getting into hypotheticals here, but had Vader's hand been "forced" into bringing Luke to Palps, there would have been a power play similar to the end of ROTJ. Palps would have manipulated Luke and Vader would have tried to convince the boy to be on his side. Regardless, I think that the end result would have been the exact same given that the motivations on the part of everyone involved wouldn't have changed at all.

Rocketboy
09-15-2005, 02:36 PM
I caught it, it is a noticeably looped scream. Poorly done.Maybe it's just something that Anakin can do. Look at his Podrace win cheers. :D

Devo
09-15-2005, 08:05 PM
Gee wiz guys thanks for all the feedback.

Tell me guys because I'd love to know ,is there some unspoken rule on this forum that you need to have at least a thousand posts to your name before your worth replying to cause it seems failing that the only way to get a reaction from anyone is to start a flame war.

If my ideas are pants just say so but dont just leave me swingin in the wind.

Ok you can all come out of your bomb shelters rant over.

stillakid
09-15-2005, 08:57 PM
Gee wiz guys thanks for all the feedback.

Tell me guys because I'd love to know ,is there some unspoken rule on this forum that you need to have at least a thousand posts to your name before your worth replying to cause it seems failing that the only way to get a reaction from anyone is to start a flame war.

If my ideas are pants just say so but dont just leave me swingin in the wind.

Ok you can all come out of your bomb shelters rant over.

I wasn't ignoring you. You just have a long post which is written in such a way as to make it difficult to read. Because of that and the nature of your question, oftentimes I don't have time right away to give adequate thought required for instantaneous feedback. You'll have to be patient. I'm sorry.

Markimus
09-15-2005, 10:33 PM
Some interesting ideas here Devo..... here is my take on them.






. To achieve this the twins would have to be concieved at the end of episode 2 (providing of course episode three takes place before any noticable bulge appeared) later in the third film we would see Padme taking a test the result of which we would not be privey to but one that would cause her some consternation.

I believe the time frame between Episode 2 and Ep 3 is more than 9 months (I think its a few years - but I'm not certain about this). I believe the clone wars lasted 3 years...

Your idea for the pregnancy works for keeping surprises but I think you really cheapen Episdoe 3. Plus I think it would really confuse people... a lot left unexplained... like the mysterious test she takes but does not reveal...



the final two scenes would see Owen and beru cradling a newborn baby as they watch the sun rise while Bail Organa and his wife do like wise.


Without showing the birth of the twins and only having Padme see the results of some unknown test... I think you would leave the audience wondering WTF? Where did these kids suddenly come from and why are they at the end of the movie? It would be too confusing for Episode 3....

I think Anakin killing the younglings is such a dramatic moment showing how far Anakin has gone to the dark side....plus - it really tells Obi-Wan how far Anakin has gone... and that's part of the reason he makes no effort to save him as he's burning by the Lava... another reason he does not make an effort is the fact that - he was trying to kill him... he did slaughter all those Jedi ...and Anakin proclaims his hatred for everyone and his eyes start to glow red (evil) which does not make him much of a candidate to be saved by Obi Wan.




. My duel however would have a little less lava Surfin an a little more meaningfull dialogue on the nature of good and Evil (ie. NOT "to me the jedi are evil " the Jedi have their flaws these should have been pointed out in the duel by Anakin)


I believe an action scene like this duel should not be filled with dialogue - there's not really a need for much discussion in a fight to the death.



The coda of the film would take place 7 or 8 months on from the last scene would see images of massacred Jedi baring wounds that could only have been inflicted by a lightsaber wielded by a master(perhaps we would hear a terrified description by a survivor in one of the scenes of a demon clad in black)


Again I prefer seeing the action on screen with the Jedi getting killed. I don't think hearing stories from another character about something so important would work that well. If you bring up a demon clad in black..and then end the movie... well, that's a LOT left unresolved. You'd want to see this demon .. but too bad.. movies over.



End result - With no suit fitting Scene ala Rots the nubes would be left with the impression that Anakin died on Mustafar and might not make the connection between him and the demon clad in black from the coda thus leaving the true identity of Darth Vader to be revealed later ie Esb


Leaving Anakin by the Lava would serve this purpose... but when you do find out in ESB / Jedi that Anakin is Vader.... wouldn't you wonder how he got away from the lava and how he got into this suit ? You'd be leaving an awful lot of stuff to happen off-screen. I think you'd be angry that this was never explained... I know I would be.

You've got some good ideas...I like that you've tried to work it out... but I think a lot of them would make Episode 3 a much weaker movie. I don't think we needed more discussion scenes at the exspense of action. That's been peoples biggest complaints about eps 1-2.

I don't think its easy coming up with different ways to write the PT (especially Ep 3) because Lucas did the best job possible. That's why I am a big fan of them !




Would love some feedback on this from any one but especially Stilla & Markimus as it was their squabblin that got me thinking about it in the first place:squareeye

I did not think anyone else was reading that squabblin ! We wrote such looong posts !!:cross-eye

JimJamBonds
09-15-2005, 10:43 PM
As far as I know you are correct Markimus in saying that the time between 2 and 3 is 3 years. After AOTC came out I remember hearing that the events between will be in 'real time' although I have no idea if that ended up being the case or not (I'd say it sounds about right).

2-1B
09-15-2005, 11:34 PM
Gee wiz guys thanks for all the feedback.

Tell me guys because I'd love to know ,is there some unspoken rule on this forum that you need to have at least a thousand posts to your name before your worth replying to cause it seems failing that the only way to get a reaction from anyone is to start a flame war.

If my ideas are pants just say so but dont just leave me swingin in the wind.

Ok you can all come out of your bomb shelters rant over.

With an attitude like that, I think all of your ideas are "pants" (whatever that means?) lol lol lol

On a serious note, I do not like your idea of Anakin not knowing at all about the Pregnancy. As it plays now, Anakin knows about the baby and for me it makes it more tragic in the sense that he knew he had a child and lost it. When things ramp up in the OT and he finds out the baby was alive afterall, it really adds even more emotional weight to ESB. :)

Thanks for the ideas, it's always fun to discuss the "what ifs" ! :)

JediTricks
09-16-2005, 02:42 AM
Tell me guys because I'd love to know ,is there some unspoken rule on this forum that you need to have at least a thousand posts to your name before your worth replying to cause it seems failing that the only way to get a reaction from anyone is to start a flame war.Don't take it too hard, I too put up a long, thought-out post yesterday that received only silence too, and I have over 10,000 posts. :p

The only reason I didn't respond is because this thread is so far out that I cannot find any discussion left about the original topic and I've been only skimming it wondering where it is going.

Devo
09-16-2005, 05:39 PM
Stillakid I wasn't ignoring you. You just have a long post which is written in such a way as to make it difficult to read. Because of that and the nature of your question, oftentimes I don't have time right away to give adequate thought required for instantaneous feedback. You'll have to be patient. I'm sorry.

No apology necessary Stilla your right I should have laid out my post better but I was up writing it pretty late and was just too tired to be bothered, thats my excuse and I'm sticking to it. :D As for being patient yes I should have been but I had a lot of time on my hands yesterday and as the old adage goes a watched post never gets replied to.


MarkimusI believe the time frame between Episode 2 and Ep 3 is more than 9 months (I think its a few years - but I'm not certain about this). I believe the clone wars lasted 3 years...


JimJamBonds As far as I know you are correct Markimus in saying that the time between 2 and 3 is 3 years. After AOTC came out

Sorry guys my fault I should have given you the context in which I was basing my ideas, you see like a lot of people on this board I was disappointed with the prequels and as such have reworked them countless numbers of times in my mind these ideas were based on one of those brainstorming sessions. Sufficed to say in the prequels I have in mind episode 3 would follow on no more then a month after episode 2. I'll give you guys that context someday once I have it all straight in my head so watch this space.:thumbsup:


Markimus Your idea for the pregnancy works for keeping surprises but I think you really cheapen Episdoe 3. Plus I think it would really confuse people... a lot left unexplained... like the mysterious test she takes but does not reveal...

You don't credit the audience with a lot of intelligence do you, not everything has to be spelt out as long as you leave a few clues about. As for people being confused Confuse who ? the kids! there only in it for the action scenes anyway who cares and to be honest any adult who can't work out that Sex + morning sickness + test = babies I'd have serious worries for.


Caesar I do not like your idea of Anakin not knowing at all about the Pregnancy. As it plays now, Anakin knows about the baby and for me it makes it more tragic in the sense that he knew he had a child and lost it. When things ramp up in the OT and he finds out the baby was alive afterall, it really adds even more emotional weight to ESB

On reflection I take your point that having Anakin be fully aware of all he has lost makes him a more tragic figure in the later films, I still feel however that at the very least they could have cut away after Luke was born leaving Leias true parentage to be revealed in Rotj.



Markimus Without showing the birth of the twins and only having Padme see the results of some unknown test... I think you would leave the audience wondering WTF? Where did these kids suddenly come from and why are they at the end of the movie? It would be too confusing for Episode 3....

As I've stated above I have come around to the idea of the audience and Anakin being aware of Padme pregnancy but not of the fact thats she's pregnant with twins that I feel should be left for Rotj to reveal. So thus in the end when we see Owen holding a baby we know its Luke but assume that the baby Bail is holding is his own.


MarkimusI think Anakin killing the younglings is such a dramatic moment showing how far Anakin has gone to the dark side....plus - it really tells Obi-Wan how far Anakin has gone... and that's part of the reason he makes no effort to save him as he's burning by the Lava

Sorry but it's just a bit too sudden for me though I can see why it works for you in the context of this film.


Markimus I believe an action scene like this duel should not be filled with dialogue - there's not really a need for much discussion in a fight to the death.

Guess your maybe a more style over substance type but to each their own, for me the duel should never have been a fight to the death at least not for Obi-Wan this was his Apprentice/friend/brother he should have been trying to reason with him till the bitter end.



Markimus Again I prefer seeing the action on screen with the Jedi getting killed. I don't think hearing stories from another character about something so important would work that well. If you bring up a demon clad in black..and then end the movie... well, that's a LOT left unresolved. You'd want to see this demon .. but too bad.. movies over.

Its called foreshadowing a literary device used to dole out tantilizing bits of information rather then shooting your metaphorical load in one go (See the shadow's in Babylon 5 for example scary as **ck before we even see them due to you guessed it foreshadowing). As for leaving alot unresolved its called a cliffhanger a well used tool of the writers trade see ESB for an example of it and you know the great thing . . . . . you can just stick ANH into your dvd player to see it resolved cool aye. :grin:



Markimus Leaving Anakin by the Lava would serve this purpose... but when you do find out in ESB / Jedi that Anakin is Vader.... wouldn't you wonder how he got away from the lava and how he got into this suit ?

Your right I guess so I suppose we could see Palps sending help his way ala Rots but not actually see him being saved ,hows that.


Markimus You've got some good ideas...I like that you've tried to work it out... but I think a lot of them would make Episode 3 a much weaker movie.

Cheers Markimus appreciate that :thumbsup: and your right my ideas would probably weaken Rots but would fit in nicely with the prequels I had in mind.


Markimus I don't think we needed more discussion scenes at the exspense of action. That's been peoples biggest complaints about eps 1-2.

Your right the last thing we needed were more stilted Lucas penned discussion scenes could'nt agree with you more what we needed was a decent writer who could write a action film with a political subtext that did'nt send you to sleep.


Markimus I don't think its easy coming up with different ways to write the PT (especially Ep 3)

Your right it isn't, but it can be done and will be done though it may take me a thousand years I make this solomn vow here and now that I will do it :laugh: :D


Markimus Lucas did the best job possible.

And fell tragically short of this fans expectations.




JediTricks Don't take it too hard, I too put up a long, thought-out post yesterday that received only silence too, and I have over 10,000 posts.

I won't thanks for the solidarity JediTricks much appreciated :)



JediTricks The only reason I didn't respond is because this thread is so far out that I cannot find any discussion left about the original topic and I've been only skimming it wondering where it is going.

Aint that always the way ?




In short(as if i know the meaning of the word) thank you guys for replying to the original post and sorry for ranting. lol lol lol lol

JediTricks
09-16-2005, 08:28 PM
[re: Anakin killing the Younglings] Sorry but it's just a bit too sudden for me though I can see why it works for you in the context of this film.Totally agree with you on this one. The darkness within him doesn't even come out this much in Palps office, it's like he flipped the switch on his back from "good" to "evil".


[re: dialogue in duel scenes]Guess your maybe a more style over substance type but to each their own, for me the duel should never have been a fight to the death at least not for Obi-Wan this was his Apprentice/friend/brother he should have been trying to reason with him till the bitter end.I totally agree again, I like verbal sparring during the battle, it's not supposed to be a ballet, these guys are baring it all, fighting to the death over personal issues. I wanted more dialogue during all the prequel saber scenes.


[re: leaving Anakin on the lava planet dying without knowing how he becomes vader]Your right I guess so I suppose we could see Palps sending help his way ala Rots but not actually see him being saved ,hows that.I would have tossed him in the lava, but I also would have set up earlier in the film talk between him and Palps about using the Dark Side to keep one's self alive under circumstances like this, and also set up earlier in the film that Palps was going to join Ani on Mustyfart as soon as he wrapped a few things up on Coruscant.

Devo
09-17-2005, 06:39 AM
JediTricks Totally agree with you on this one it's like he flipped the switch on his back from "good" to "evil".

Yeh lets remember he was meant to be seduced by the dark side not just choose it for coldly logical reasons(ie to save Padme).



JediTricks The darkness within him doesn't even come out this much in Palps office

Or in most of the film for that matter, in fact he's more likable in this film then he was in the previous two which is the main problem the lack of consistancy. I know certain people will argue that it makes it more tragic but for me its just shoddy writing on Lucas part trying to make up for the fact that he made Anakin such an unlikable prick in the first place. To my mind the bond between Obi-Wan and Anakin should have been at its height in episode 2 and hitting the skids in 3 not the other way around.

Markimus
09-17-2005, 02:18 PM
Totally agree with you on this one. The darkness within him doesn't even come out this much in Palps office, it's like he flipped the switch on his back from "good" to "evil".


I think you can make the argument that that by cutting off Mace's hand and allowing Palpatine to kill him... that's a lot of "darkness" coming out of him. As for killing at the Jedi Temple... their plan was to strike the Jedi fast so they would not be prepared. Anakin agreed because he knows he's already gone too far by helping to kill Mace. There's no going back and Palpy is the only one who can save Padme. Plus, Palpatine has him convinced that the Jedi's first move would be against the Senators... which Padme is a member.

We have seen Anakin go wild and kill women and children before ... with the Sand People in AOTC.... out of revenge for his mom...so - he has had flashes of evil before when trying to save a loved one.:squareeye

2-1B
09-18-2005, 12:50 AM
He didn't choose it for "coldly logical reasons." Anakin should have known exactly how illogical it was in the first place, for example Yoda gave him some sound advice on the matter but Anners wasn't content with anything logical, he saw that proverbial forbidden apple in Palpatine's paw and kept nibbling.

JimJamBonds
09-18-2005, 10:59 AM
Totally agree with you on this one. The darkness within him doesn't even come out this much in Palps office, it's like he flipped the switch on his back from "good" to "evil".

I thought that was just on Krusty dolls? :D

Devo
09-18-2005, 04:30 PM
Confession times guys the last few off topic posts (ie not on the subject of vader's Rots armour) bearing the name Devo were in fact by me his older brother:o .Quite why I didn't just join up to start off with I'll never know but that mistake has since been rectified and I will now be posting under the moniker Daz:thumbsup: so direct any flack and more importantly praise accordingly:D .

2-1B
09-18-2005, 04:41 PM
Yeah, okay, we'll get right on that. :rolleyes:

JediTricks
09-18-2005, 06:30 PM
To my mind the bond between Obi-Wan and Anakin should have been at its height in episode 2 and hitting the skids in 3 not the other way around.Absolutely, that has bothered me a lot over the past 3 years or so, I guess Lucas didn't want to transition little Ani being like a little brother or son to Obi-Wan into friendship directly, but in my mind that speaks more to the mistake of having Ani a young 9-year-old boy in TPM more than anything else.



I think you can make the argument that that by cutting off Mace's hand and allowing Palpatine to kill him... that's a lot of "darkness" coming out of him.I don't see it that way, Anakin doesn't threaten Mace with his saber or build up any darkness, he just surprises Mace, backs away in surprise as Mace gets toasted, then freaks out about it crying and saying "what have I done?". Ani doesn't betray Mace out of some darkness resting on his shoulder, but from a feeling of fear of losing the one thing that can save Padme - Anakin even tries to save Palpatine through reason rather than harming Mace when Ani mentions Palps having to go before trial, it's only when Mace rejects this and moves to strike Palpatine thus killing Padme indirectly that Anakin intervenes at all, and he only stops the danger to Palps rather than killing Mace, this doesn't ring of the great darkness to me.


Anakin agreed because he knows he's already gone too far by helping to kill Mace. There's no going back and Palpy is the only one who can save Padme.Why is there no going back? The only witness is Palpatine who would likely keep his own mouth shut about the incident, especially with a Jedi Councilmember now under his thumb. Anakin's already fooled himself into thinking he can step back from the brink once in the movie when he killed Dooku with the only witness being Palpatine.


Plus, Palpatine has him convinced that the Jedi's first move would be against the Senators... which Padme is a member.I don't find this to be well-sold, it doesn't follow logic and is not something Mace ever said, I can't put any weight behind it.



I thought that was just on Krusty dolls? :DWas wondering when someone would pick up on that ref. :thumbsup:

2-1B
09-18-2005, 06:54 PM
There is indeed weight behind it. The Jedi were in fact going to take over the Senate as was discussed in the film and while Anakin was wrong about the motivation behind such a move, it was still based in reality.

stillakid
09-18-2005, 07:36 PM
There is indeed weight behind it. The Jedi were in fact going to take over the Senate as was discussed in the film and while Anakin was wrong about the motivation behind such a move, it was still based in reality.

Not really. Anakin knew that Palps was the bad guy and he knew that Padme and most of the Senators were good guys. And right up until his crybaby moment after he says "What have I done?" he seems to have had a very good grasp over who was on what side and what everyone's motivations were. Then, of course, for reasons yet to be fully explained and understood, he goes into zombie-mode and completely flips sides without warning nor motivation. Besides, there wasn't anything in the film to suggest that the Jedi were going to go slaughter all the Senators as their first move, so I'm not even sure where that allegation as motive for Anakin comes from. :confused:

JimJamBonds
09-18-2005, 09:34 PM
Not really. Anakin knew that Palps was the bad guy and he knew that Padme and most of the Senators were good guys. And right up until his crybaby moment after he says "What have I done?" he seems to have had a very good grasp over who was on what side and what everyone's motivations were. Then, of course, for reasons yet to be fully explained and understood, he goes into zombie-mode and completely flips sides without warning nor motivation. Besides, there wasn't anything in the film to suggest that the Jedi were going to go slaughter all the Senators as their first move, so I'm not even sure where that allegation as motive for Anakin comes from. :confused:

I didn't think Anakin had quite the grip on the situation when confronted with the truth. He didn't call Mace to come and keep an eye on Palps he left the guy they had been looking for for over 10 yrs. on his own. Yeah yeah I know 'where would Palpy go? He's known everywhere etc.' When Palps says "but you don't know what to do?" Anakin comes back with "I'm going to turn you over to the council..." (or something like that) he seems to have forgotten that the very group he is going to report to is a group that he himself is a part of.

The first move was against Palps the second move is against the Senate. Palpatine says that to which Anakin agrees.

2-1B
09-18-2005, 10:09 PM
Not really. Anakin knew that Palps was the bad guy and he knew that Padme and most of the Senators were good guys. And right up until his crybaby moment after he says "What have I done?" he seems to have had a very good grasp over who was on what side and what everyone's motivations were.

"Not really" right back at you. :)

Yes he knew (eventually) that Palpatine was the bad guy but that same bad guy was his friend and was already in his ear, he had him double thinking some things. No, he did not have a very good grasp on what everyone's motivations were or else he wouldn't have been salty at Obe and the Council for making him a double agent, making him do something he thought was going against a friend and equally important, against the Jedi Code. That is a scene right out of the movie.


Then, of course, for reasons yet to be fully explained and understood, he goes into zombie-mode and completely flips sides without warning nor motivation. Besides, there wasn't anything in the film to suggest that the Jedi were going to go slaughter all the Senators as their first move, so I'm not even sure where that allegation as motive for Anakin comes from. :confused:

Who said anything about slaughter ? Not me. I said "take over" which is completely different. That is based in fact because that's exactly what the Council was going to do if they arrested Palps. But since you mentioned Slaughter, it's easy to see how Anakin might come to that idea, considering he bought into the whole "I saw Master Windu attempt to assassinate the Chancellor myself." If the Jedi were willing to take such moves against the Chancellor, why not do the same to the Senate that might oppose their rule ?

And why do you call it a "crybaby moment" ? :confused:

JediTricks
09-19-2005, 02:38 PM
Perhaps because Ani starts, oh I dunno, crying? :cry: ;)

What Stilla said about it fits, there's no weight behind the claim, we never see Anakin ponder that this might be even remotely true, and the plot never gives the claim any proper weight by showing us "maybe they are gonna do it" types of things, it comes off as a lost, throwaway line that nobody, not even Palpatine, believes.

Daz
09-19-2005, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devo
To my mind the bond between Obi-Wan and Anakin should have been at its height in episode 2 and hitting the skids in 3 not the other way around.


JediTricks Absolutely, that has bothered me a lot over the past 3 years or so, I guess Lucas didn't want to transition little Ani being like a little brother or son to Obi-Wan into friendship directly, but in my mind that speaks more to the mistake of having Ani a young 9-year-old boy in TPM more than anything else.



Yeh quite why Lucas decided to pander to kids by casting a 9 year old as Anakin in what was supposedly the darkest part of the Saga is beyond me. It was just plain wrong on so many levels because:

A. The age differance between Anakin & Padme made his pining for her for the ten years between Eps 1 & 2 quite frankly disturbing though not half as disturbing as her succumbing to his lecherous charms ,this a boy after all she practically babysat.

B. It stretch's credibility thet Obi-Wan would form a brotherly bond with a lad 15 years his junior let alone one as immature as Anakin.

C. It forced Lucas to skip 10 years rather then the traditional 3 between episodes just so Anakin balls had dropped before he turned bad, meaning we never got to see the transition from annoying kid to really annoying adult, :D thank goodness for that I suppose.


If George had really thought things through properly he would have realised that with the release of ANH in 1977 he'd not only cleaned up at the box office, but enthralled a generation of kids and all this with not an annoying blonde moppet in sight.:grin:

JediTricks
09-19-2005, 08:07 PM
why Lucas decided to pander to kids by casting a 9 year old as Anakin in what was supposedly the darkest part of the Saga is beyond me.It was even worse when you consider that they cast a 7-year-old to play a 9-year-old, that's why Anakin looks older, taller with darker hair and a less cherubic face (though still too young for the part IMO) in some of TPM's pickup shots.

2-1B
09-19-2005, 11:57 PM
Perhaps because Ani starts, oh I dunno, crying? :cry: ;)

No, he does not. Absolutely not. He exclaims "what have I done?!", slouches back, onto that chair/table thing dropping his lightsaber, and Palps says "you are fulfilling your destiny" and then it moves on to Ani accepting Sith Apprenticeship. Not one tear, no crying in that scene.


What Stilla said about it fits, there's no weight behind the claim, we never see Anakin ponder that this might be even remotely true, and the plot never gives the claim any proper weight by showing us "maybe they are gonna do it" types of things, it comes off as a lost, throwaway line that nobody, not even Palpatine, believes.

There is weight to the claim because the heads of the Council specifically say that after removing the Chancellor they would have to take control of the Senate. When Anakin tells Palps that the Jedi don't trust Palps, Palps builds on that by saying "or the Senate. or the Republic. or democracy for that matter." So yes, in Anakin's already conflicted mind, if Mace goes too far in trying to assassinate the Chancellor, then why wouldn't they roll into the Senate as well and stir up some **** ? :confused:

And of course Palpatine doesn't believe it, why should he ? Or, why do you point out that not even Palpatine believes it ? That's the idea, he's obviously poisoning Anakin against his fellow Jedi. :)

Really guys, it's obvious that you haven't seen this movie in a long time. lol

JimJamBonds
09-20-2005, 12:50 AM
Ani doesn't betray Mace out of some darkness resting on his shoulder, but from a feeling of fear of losing the one thing that can save Padme

Ummm when Anakin is talking to Yoda in his 'apartment' Yoda comments that Anakin needs to 'learn to let go.... the shadow of greed that is.' And that is a path to the dark side. So yes Anakin does "have some darkness resting on his shoulder."

JimJamBonds
09-20-2005, 01:34 PM
Perhaps because Ani starts, oh I dunno, crying? :cry: ;).

I watched ROTS last night and Caeasar is right there is NO crying. Three times Anakin/Vader sheds a tear 1) when he and Padme are looking across Coruscant at where the other likely would be. 2) When Vader goes into the Council chamber and the little scooter says "Master Skywalker there are too many of them what are we to do?" Vader fires up his blade and a single tear comes down and 3) after 'taking care' of the CIS leadership Vader looks out at Mustafar and once again a single tear

Markimus
09-20-2005, 07:01 PM
This is what the "haters" get so mad about. Lucas took the super evil villain Vader and made him human. He made Vader a talented Jedi who made some bad mistakes and was tricked by the evil Palpy. Which he had to do in the Prequels because he started to do it in Empire and finally Jedi - so it can make sense when he becomes "good" and saves Luke.

He was not born evil... that's what we see in Ep 1. He takes large burdens upon himself and wants to progress fast with his great powers - and lets his passions control him as we see in Ep 2.

When he cuts off Mace's hand in Ep 3 and does not stop Palpy from killing Mace... he has some regrets (again - he's not purely evil). But he embraces Palpy because he sees him as the only way to save Padme and won't let her die - he could not save his Mom but he will save Padme at all costs. Of course - Palpy has been working on Anakin for years ... manipulating him... even putting Aankin and Padme together when he sent him to protect her on Naboo... knowing a bond could grow... and a Jedi can not have those kind of attachments. (oh and he certainly does not cry just like Ceaser and JimJam so clearly stated)

So Anakin is not supremely evil .. he does what he feels he must and makes mistakes and has regrets. Anakin can't be completely evil - otherwise it would make no sense that he is redeemed by Luke at the end. You feel sympathy for Anakin - built in the prequels - so when he's Vader.. you can understand why Luke can see the good in him... he was a victim of his own passionate mistakes and was also manipulated by Palpy.

seanmcfripp
09-21-2005, 03:37 PM
This is what the "haters" get so mad about. Lucas took the super evil villain Vader and made him human.

I don't think you'll find a single "hater" here who thinks Vader is "super evil", nor would you find one that doesn't want Vader to be human. In fact, Vader's human qualities, strictly speaking of the OT, are what made him such a great character. Please make no mistake: we get mad because Lucas made the PT Ani/Vader incongruous with the "human" elements of the Vader form the OT. I personally like the OT Vader because he's evil only incidentally. He chokes incompetent officers because he has no patience for their mistakes, not because he enjoys killing people. Palpatine is the one who is "super evil". I get the feeling he just sits around being evil because, well, hey, it's fun! He's deliciously evil. Vader is pragmatically evil.


He made Vader a talented Jedi who made some bad mistakes and was tricked by the evil Palpy. Which he had to do in the Prequels because he started to do it in Empire and finally Jedi - so it can make sense when he becomes "good" and saves Luke.

Well, even before the PT, we knew Anakin was going to be a talented Jedi, and in fact, we knew he was going to be a "good man"...Obi-wan told us everything we needed to know. The "haters" are mad because all Ani turned out to be was a whiny, bi-polar brat, and I certainly envisioned Ani being a lot more than that. Instead of seeing "the good man who was your father", we get to see Ani try to get into Padme's pants for an entire movie. I'm sorry, but I feel like I got ripped off.


He was not born evil... that's what we see in Ep 1.

I think it's safe to say that we all knew he wasn't born evil, so you're kinda over-stating the obvious here. I'm not trying to be rude, but if you could help me out for a sec...what exactly do you think "the haters" expected Anakin to be like in the PT?


So Anakin is not supremely evil .. he does what he feels he must and makes mistakes and has regrets. Anakin can't be completely evil - otherwise it would make no sense that he is redeemed by Luke at the end. You feel sympathy for Anakin - built in the prequels - so when he's Vader.. you can understand why Luke can see the good in him... he was a victim of his own passionate mistakes and was also manipulated by Palpy.

I gotcha, but again, this needs no explanation. I don't think any of us expected Obi-wan to have considered an evil maniac to be "a good friend". We all knew Anakin would be a good man with a pre-disposition that would make him vulnerable to the darkside. "The lovers" are perfectly happy with the Ani they got in the PT. "The haters" are unhappy with the execution of the means by which Anakin was actually portrayed. I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'll ask again: What do you think "the haters" expectations were for Anakin?

JediTricks
09-21-2005, 06:47 PM
No, he does not. Absolutely not. He exclaims "what have I done?!", slouches back, onto that chair/table thing dropping his lightsaber, and Palps says "you are fulfilling your destiny" and then it moves on to Ani accepting Sith Apprenticeship. Not one tear, no crying in that scene. The attachment I have included in this post says otherwise, there are tears in Ani's eyes and I think even on his face, this is while he's saying "what have I done?!?"


There is weight to the claim because the heads of the Council specifically say that after removing the Chancellor they would have to take control of the Senate. When? I don't remember this.


When Anakin tells Palps that the Jedi don't trust Palps, Palps builds on that by saying "or the Senate. or the Republic. or democracy for that matter." But Anakin's already dismissed Palpatine as evil when the issue comes to a head, I was saying I didn't think it was well-sold because it didn't follow the internal logic of Anakin's beliefs and trusts (at this point we know he doesn't trust Palpatine, he knows the guy's evil and moves only because he needs him) and isn't something we're *shown* he believes on his own. In fact, when Anakin tattles to Mace about Palps being a Sith, he himself says that he doesn't think Palps will give back to the Senate the emergency powers they bestowed upon him.


So yes, in Anakin's already conflicted mind, if Mace goes too far in trying to assassinate the Chancellor, then why wouldn't they roll into the Senate as well and stir up some **** ? :confused:Again, I don't believe it, Anakin knows that Palpatine is a Sith which makes him a danger. Mace tells Ani that Palps can't be put on trial because he already controls the senate and the courts, Anakin doesn't disagree with this claim. So I am not seeing how we can see Anakin believing that the Jedi are after the senate.


And of course Palpatine doesn't believe it, why should he ? Or, why do you point out that not even Palpatine believes it ? That's the idea, he's obviously poisoning Anakin against his fellow Jedi. :)Except that Anakin doesn't show us anything that supports the idea that Anakin is falling for this, hence my claim that I don't put any weight behind hit.



Ummm when Anakin is talking to Yoda in his 'apartment' Yoda comments that Anakin needs to 'learn to let go.... the shadow of greed that is.' And that is a path to the dark side. So yes Anakin does "have some darkness resting on his shoulder."I meant something a little less fuzzy, he has FEAR on his shoulder which can LEAD to the Dark Side, but in my mind it's not the same thing.

JimJamBonds
09-22-2005, 12:18 AM
The attachment I have included in this post says otherwise, there are tears in Ani's eyes and I think even on his face, this is while he's saying "what have I done?!?"

Kinda hard to tell there, his eyes seem to be a touch on the red side I'll have to check this out the next time I see it.


There is weight to the claim because the heads of the Council specifically say that after removing the Chancellor they would have to take control of the Senate.


When? I don't remember this.

Ki-Adi-Mundi, Yoda and Aayla Secura are hol's while we see Mace in some sort of hanger in the Jedi temple. Commander Cody pops in and says "Obi-Wan has engaged General Grevious" Mace turns to Anakin and says 'report this to the Chancellor his reaction will determine if he will give back his power." Mace says I sense a plot to destory the Jedi.... Ki-Adi says if Palps doesn't give back his powers he should be removed... Mace mentions taking over control of the Senate. Yoda comments "to a dark place this line of thinking will take us." Aayla just stands there looking hot. :D


Again, I don't believe it, Anakin knows that Palpatine is a Sith which makes him a danger. Mace tells Ani that Palps can't be put on trial because he already controls the senate and the courts, Anakin doesn't disagree with this claim. So I am not seeing how we can see Anakin believing that the Jedi are after the senate.

Ohh I think Anakin disagree's plenty with Mace. If he agreed then why did Anakin yell "NOOO I need him!" and then chop off Mace's hand and then watch Palps blast the unarmed Mace with the ol' blue light special? It seems they have a bit of a difference on what should happen to Palparoo.

2-1B
09-22-2005, 02:32 AM
He's not crying in that pic, that's erroneous. :)

Jim Jam nailed the "removed from office" scene perfectly up there, that's how I remember it as well.

Yes, Anakin does decide to do the right thing by turning over the Sith Lord to the Council . . . but like Palps says to him, "but you do not know their intentions, do you?" Now couple that with the earlier tasty apple of Palps in that pseudo-homoerotic seduction scene where he is trying to blur the edges of Sith vs. Jedi for Anakin.


all Ani turned out to be was a whiny, bi-polar brat

I assume you don't know anybody who is actually bipolar ? :)

seanmcfripp
09-22-2005, 07:55 AM
I assume you don't know anybody who is actually bipolar ? :)

Well, I can get a good look at a t-bone by sticking my head up a butcher's...no wait, I can stick my head up a t-bone's cow...no wait. Shut up Richard. Tommy Boy aside...


I guess you're saying I missed the mark by labelling Ani as bi-polar? Well, I'll have you know I'm not a real doctor, but I do play one on tv...and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I don't have to witness a condition first hand to know what it is and how it affects people. I was speaking figuratively and think that was pretty clear. But for the record:

Bipolar disorder, also known as manic-depressive illness, is a brain disorder that causes unusual shifts in a person's mood, energy, and ability to function. Different from the normal ups and downs that everyone goes through, the symptoms of bipolar disorder are severe. They can result in damaged relationships, poor job or school performance, and even suicide.

Sounds like our little Ani to me. Speaking as a quasi-medical man, you're lucky I'm not charging you for this kind of diagnosis!

JimJamBonds
09-22-2005, 10:11 AM
I don't think Ani was constantly shifting back and forth what that synapsis states. He shifted once in ROTS and once more back in ROTJ. So I don't think he's flip floppin' rather he changed his mind....... 30ish yrs later he changes his mind back.

seanmcfripp
09-22-2005, 10:54 AM
I don't think Ani was constantly shifting back and forth what that synapsis states. He shifted once in ROTS and once more back in ROTJ. So I don't think he's flip floppin' rather he changed his mind....... 30ish yrs later he changes his mind back.

Nope, I'm talking about the day to day Ani, not the overal fall/redemption part of the character. I'll give you an example: Remember the scene from AOTC when Ani is talking Padme while she's packing? He goes all over the place:

- he praises his mentor, says he's like a father

- he raises his voice, rips him for being overly critical

- he makes bed room eyes at Padme and starts puttin' the moves on her

Granted, this all happens in the span of about 30 seconds. I know if were in the room with a guy acting like that, I'd probably call security. Some would say this portayal of Anakin makes the character "edgy". Others, myself included, would say this behavior is bizarre and very much in line with the symptoms a mental disorder.

2-1B
09-22-2005, 12:38 PM
Ani is a cocky pain-in-the-****-at-times teenager in AOTC. There's none of that "bipolar" stuff in ROTS. Ani does not fit that description you posted of bipolar and believe me, if you actually knew somebody with it, you would (hopefully) understand how much of a stretch it is to label him that way.

JediTricks
09-22-2005, 01:55 PM
Kinda hard to tell there, his eyes seem to be a touch on the red side I'll have to check this out the next time I see it.Well, the grabs are from a friend's download so the quality is naturally not good, and then the DVD capture is even worse, so I had to make do with what I have, but it's looks like crying to me.


Ki-Adi-Mundi, Yoda and Aayla Secura are hol's while we see Mace in some sort of hanger in the Jedi temple. Commander Cody pops in and says "Obi-Wan has engaged General Grevious" Mace turns to Anakin and says 'report this to the Chancellor his reaction will determine if he will give back his power." Mace says I sense a plot to destory the Jedi.... Ki-Adi says if Palps doesn't give back his powers he should be removed... Mace mentions taking over control of the Senate. Yoda comments "to a dark place this line of thinking will take us." Aayla just stands there looking hot. :DOk, I didn't remember this scene (which suggests right there that it didn't carry much weight with me), so I just queued it up - it's in a spire at the Jedi Temple, a war room I believe - and I did unintentionally leave it open by an imprecise comment on my part. But I still think it carries no weight in the main discussion because they had already sent Anakin off to Palpatine - Anakin leaves the room before Mace says they have to take control of the senate to ensure a peaceful transition. Here's why I think it doesn't carry weight:
Markimus: Palpatine has him [Anakin] convinced that the Jedi's first move would be against the Senators... which Padme is a member.
JediTricks: I don't find this to be well-sold, it doesn't follow logic and is not something Mace ever said, I can't put any weight behind it. (In hindsight, I did not explain my opinion clearly enough - JT)
Caesar: There is indeed weight behind it. The Jedi were in fact going to take over the Senate as was discussed in the film and while Anakin was wrong about the motivation behind such a move, it was still based in reality.
stillakid: Not really. Anakin knew that Palps was the bad guy and he knew that Padme and most of the Senators were good guys. And right up until his crybaby moment after he says "What have I done?" he seems to have had a very good grasp over who was on what side and what everyone's motivations were. ... Besides, there wasn't anything in the film to suggest that the Jedi were going to go slaughter all the Senators as their first move, so I'm not even sure where that allegation as motive for Anakin comes from.
Caesar: Yes he knew (eventually) that Palpatine was the bad guy but that same bad guy was his friend and was already in his ear, he had him double thinking some things. No, he did not have a very good grasp on what everyone's motivations were or else he wouldn't have been salty at Obe and the Council for making him a double agent, making him do something he thought was going against a friend and equally important, against the Jedi Code. ... Who said anything about slaughter ? Not me. I said "take over" which is completely different. That is based in fact because that's exactly what the Council was going to do if they arrested Palps. But since you mentioned Slaughter, it's easy to see how Anakin might come to that idea, considering he bought into the whole "I saw Master Windu attempt to assassinate the Chancellor myself." If the Jedi were willing to take such moves against the Chancellor, why not do the same to the Senate that might oppose their rule ? (Here Caesar unintentionally points out that "move against" does seem to carry that "slaughter" connotation when he himself uses the term that way in the last sentence - JT)
JediTricks: What Stilla said about it fits, there's no weight behind the claim, we never see Anakin ponder that this might be even remotely true, and the plot never gives the claim any proper weight by showing us "maybe they are gonna do it" types of things, it comes off as a lost, throwaway line that nobody, not even Palpatine, believes. (Obviously, here I had forgotten about the scene you mentioned JimJam, so I guess that's how I left it open to this tangent, but Anakin never saw that scene so it still carries no weight in the original tangent, and I don't think it carried a lot of weight in the plot on its own even outside of Anakin's purview - JT)
Caesar: There is weight to the claim because the heads of the Council specifically say that after removing the Chancellor they would have to take control of the Senate. When Anakin tells Palps that the Jedi don't trust Palps, Palps builds on that by saying "or the Senate. or the Republic. or democracy for that matter." So yes, in Anakin's already conflicted mind, if Mace goes too far in trying to assassinate the Chancellor, then why wouldn't they roll into the Senate as well and stir up some **** ? And of course Palpatine doesn't believe it, why should he ? Or, why do you point out that not even Palpatine believes it ? That's the idea, he's obviously poisoning Anakin against his fellow Jedi.
JediTricks: But Anakin's already dismissed Palpatine as evil when the issue comes to a head, I was saying I didn't think it was well-sold because it didn't follow the internal logic of Anakin's beliefs and trusts (at this point we know he doesn't trust Palpatine, he knows the guy's evil and moves only because he needs him) and isn't something we're *shown* he believes on his own. In fact, when Anakin tattles to Mace about Palps being a Sith, he himself says that he doesn't think Palps will give back to the Senate the emergency powers they bestowed upon him.
[responding to Caeser's statement that "So yes, in Anakin's already conflicted mind, if Mace goes too far in trying to assassinate the Chancellor, then why wouldn't they roll into the Senate as well and stir up some **** ?"] Again, I don't believe it, Anakin knows that Palpatine is a Sith which makes him a danger. Mace tells Ani that Palps can't be put on trial because he already controls the senate and the courts, Anakin doesn't disagree with this claim. So I am not seeing how we can see Anakin believing that the Jedi are after the senate. Ok, so there's the discussion up until your response in a nutshell. Caesar is actually the one who steered it back onto the main tangent which is Anakin's motivations and whether he would be concerned about a Jedi move against the senate. Caesar argues there IS weight to "Anakin ponder that this might be even remotely true" but his argument (and your own claim as well) about Palps claiming the Jedi don't trust the senate isn't accurate because we *don't* see Anakin agree with that, Ani merely responds his trust in them has been shaken, and we never get follow-up to support that Ani may later agree with Palpatine's assessment.

Bottom line, in regards to what we know of Anakin's motivations regarding a Jedi move against the senate, based on what Anakin hears and knows and believes, I do not put any weight behind a claim that Anakin believes that to be likely.


Ohh I think Anakin disagree's plenty with Mace. If he agreed then why did Anakin yell "NOOO I need him!" and then chop off Mace's hand and then watch Palps blast the unarmed Mace with the ol' blue light special? It seems they have a bit of a difference on what should happen to Palparoo.I already responded to this claim in post 127, but I guess I can try to put it in different words. Why did Anakin wait only until Mace was moving to *kill* Palps before taking action? Anakin had no problem letting Mace arrest the Supreme Chancellor and even argued FOR it, it's only when Mace was about to take away the one thing Anakin perceives that can save his wife does he make a move, and his move against Mace isn't a killing blow even though he had that opportunity, it's only a disarming strike, he had no idea that Palps would then kill Mace.


- - -



I guess you're saying I missed the mark by labelling Ani as bi-polar? Well, I'll have you know I'm not a real doctor, but I do play one on tv...[I]and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I don't have to witness a condition first hand to know what it is and how it affects people. I was speaking figuratively and think that was pretty clear. But for the record:

Bipolar disorder, also known as manic-depressive illness, is a brain disorder that causes unusual shifts in a person's mood, energy, and ability to function. Different from the normal ups and downs that everyone goes through, the symptoms of bipolar disorder are severe. They can result in damaged relationships, poor job or school performance, and even suicide.

Sounds like our little Ani to me. Speaking as a quasi-medical man, you're lucky I'm not charging you for this kind of diagnosis!Sean, I did a post 5 months ago that was on the same road as yours but didn't deliver as well, the bottom part of this one: 383352 As you can see, it kinda got lost in the shuffle here.


Ani is a cocky pain-in-the-****-at-times teenager in AOTC. There's none of that "bipolar" stuff in ROTS. Ani does not fit that description you posted of bipolar and believe me, if you actually knew somebody with it, you would (hopefully) understand how much of a stretch it is to label him that way.Caes, I know that you have a family member which suffers from bipolar disorder, but try to keep in mind that your personal experiences are unique to your situation and may significantly differ from others'. As for Sean's medical description fitting Anakin's mood shifts in AOTC, there were scenes where Anakin's mood shifted violently and constricted his ability to function at times, and I think it damaged his relationships with his friends, as well as hampered his dutiful performance. Moreover, you cannot take the character in AOTC and separate him from the one in ROTS, it's the same character and actor, he may be playing it differently but we still know that this is the same guy who got all creepy while uncomfortably stroking Padme's shoulder and complaining about how sand feels.

JimJamBonds
09-22-2005, 11:52 PM
But I still think it carries no weight in the main discussion because they had already sent Anakin off to Palpatine - Anakin leaves the room before Mace says they have to take control of the senate to ensure a peaceful transition.

True, Anakin isn't there to hear the rest of the exchange but he is told by Mace "his (Palps) intentions will determine if he will let go of his emergency power." After Anakin comes back from telling Palpy that Obi has engaged GG Mace tells Anakin that Grevious is dead and that he and three others are going to make sure that Palps turns over his power. So I think its clearly established about the Jedi and what they plan on doing with the head of the Senate. Since we know that Palpatine is feeding Anakin bs why wouldn't he say the Jedi are to make a move agaisnt the Senators as well. If the Jedi were going to get Palparoo out of office why wouldn't they go for a clean sweep and take care of the riff raff in the Senate as well? I can see how/where Anakin would be thinking this as well and eat it up when Palps says the very same thing.


Anakin knows that Palpatine is a Sith which makes him a danger.

True but Anakin has also been given the 'I can help you save Padme' song and dance thus he says "I need him!" right before Mace tries to chop Palpatine in two.

2-1B
09-23-2005, 01:34 AM
Caes, I know that you have a family member which suffers from bipolar disorder, but try to keep in mind that your personal experiences are unique to your situation and may significantly differ from others'.

Yeah, and the other half of that would be that as I learned much more about it, I studied up on OTHER cases and no, I did not base that post solely on my own personal unique experiences. But nice try at marginalizing my comments. :) If a bland WebMD internet description suits your argument, then have at it. Maybe both types of the disorder should be quoted in Sean's post ? :)


As for Sean's medical description fitting Anakin's mood shifts in AOTC, there were scenes where Anakin's mood shifted violently and constricted his ability to function at times, and I think it damaged his relationships with his friends, as well as hampered his dutiful performance. Moreover, you cannot take the character in AOTC and separate him from the one in ROTS, it's the same character and actor, he may be playing it differently but we still know that this is the same guy who got all creepy while uncomfortably stroking Padme's shoulder and complaining about how sand feels.

Exactly ! lol He is the same character, absolutely. And if he was bipolar in AOTC, then he's bipolar in ROTS and unless we see him begin medication, then in the next film he would be the same way. I have watched ROTS many, many times and there is no point in that movie where any of his actions reflect a bipolar personality (well, except for the whole becoming Darth Vader thing lol but that's not relevant). That's an argument against him being bipolar in AOTC, the fact that he's grown into manhood and out of his troublesome teen mode is proof to me that it was pretty much what George was going for, a punky teen like I described in my last post. :)

I still don't believe Ani reflects bipolar in AOTC but I can see how one might make that mistake when AOTC came out. But I have to wonder, have you guys ever interacted with other teenagers at any point ? lol I've seen some of Anakin's "personality traits" in so many people that age over the years, it's really not uncommon. I can't believe I'm even debating the topic of "Is Anakin Skywalker bipolar?" on the internet, especially with people who don't even like the movies he is in. I hated War of the Worlds, I think I'll go break down the psychology of Tom Cruise as a deadbeat dad and approach him from a psychiatric standpoint. Too funny. lol

Daz
09-23-2005, 04:49 PM
George had the formula just right with Luke why did he have to mess with it just use the same arc but this time change it so Anakin turns to the dark side, simple.:laugh:

JediTricks
09-23-2005, 05:32 PM
True, Anakin isn't there to hear the rest of the exchange but he is told by Mace "his (Palps) intentions will determine if he will let go of his emergency power." After Anakin comes back from telling Palpy that Obi has engaged GG Mace tells Anakin that Grevious is dead and that he and three others are going to make sure that Palps turns over his power. So I think its clearly established about the Jedi and what they plan on doing with the head of the Senate. Since we know that Palpatine is feeding Anakin bs why wouldn't he say the Jedi are to make a move agaisnt the Senators as well. If the Jedi were going to get Palparoo out of office why wouldn't they go for a clean sweep and take care of the riff raff in the Senate as well? I can see how/where Anakin would be thinking this as well and eat it up when Palps says the very same thing.But it's not sold at all, in order to buy what you're selling, the audience is the one who has to fill in all the blanks there, they have to ASSUME that Anakin sees Palpatine and the Senate as one in the same so a move against one is a move against both, they have to ASSUME that Anakin is believing everything Palps is telling him, and they have to ASSUME that Anakin on his own believes in absolute sanctity of the Senate (keep in mind what he told Padme back in AOTC during the field romp, he had no problem with the idea of strongarming the Senate - maybe he was kidding, but I thought that scene was more foreshadowing of Anakin's true character) -- I understand that you can see how Anakin *might* think that's possible, but what can you point to in the film which actually supports that? You yourself say you CAN see how he could get there, but you don't say definitively that you DO see how he got there and that's a big difference.


True but Anakin has also been given the 'I can help you save Padme' song and dance thus he says "I need him!" right before Mace tries to chop Palpatine in two.But right there, in Anakin's mind wouldn't that separate Palpatine from the Senate? I believe it does which takes "protecting the Senate" out of the equation for Anakin's motivation.



Yeah, and the other half of that would be that as I learned much more about it, I studied up on OTHER cases and no, I did not base that post solely on my own personal unique experiences. But nice try at marginalizing my comments. If a bland WebMD internet description suits your argument, then have at it. Maybe both types of the disorder should be quoted in Sean's post ? I'm not trying to push your comments into the margin, I'm just trying to point out that what works for you may not work for others, you are thrusting your personal viewpoint in there as set-in-stone fact which negates others comments. You don't generally accept others opinions as facts, why should we accept yours that way? That's all I was saying.


He is the same character, absolutely. And if he was bipolar in AOTC, then he's bipolar in ROTS and unless we see him begin medication, then in the next film he would be the same way.Only if this were "real life" would that assessment be accurate, but these are only movies and they were written and made 3 years apart.

I've already linked to the rest of this "bipolar" discussion, which we had way back in April before ROTS came out, nothing's changed there IMO so that's all I have to say.

seanmcfripp
09-23-2005, 08:36 PM
I've already linked to the rest of this "bipolar" discussion, which we had way back in April before ROTS came out, nothing's changed there IMO so that's all I have to say.

...which was a great thread, by the way. You, Stilla, and Rick really support your opinions well. Maybe I'm biased because I tend to agree with everything in it, but dangit, some pretty convincing arguments are in there.

2-1B
09-24-2005, 01:44 AM
But it's not sold at all

I guess it is to Jim Jam. :)


in order to buy what you're selling, the audience is the one who has to fill in all the blanks there, they have to ASSUME that Anakin sees Palpatine and the Senate as one in the same so a move against one is a move against both . . . . But right there, in Anakin's mind wouldn't that separate Palpatine from the Senate? I believe it does which takes "protecting the Senate" out of the equation for Anakin's motivation.

Not really, considering that Mace tells Anakin that Palps has control of the Senate, the same Senate who earlier gives Palpatine further executive powers as told by Obi-Wan to Anakin. I don't think it's an assumption there.


I'm not trying to push your comments into the margin, I'm just trying to point out that what works for you may not work for others, you are thrusting your personal viewpoint in there as set-in-stone fact which negates others comments.

Where did I say it was set in stone fact ? I told Sean I didn't think he knew anybody who was bipolar, because I don't agree with his diagnosis of it. Yes, that was my opinion. The set-in-stone facts came up when the condition was posted here and asserted that yes Ani is bipolar.


You don't generally accept others opinions as facts, why should we accept yours that way? That's all I was saying.

And why do you think I expect you to accept my opinions as facts ? I happen to think that I know enough about bipolar to know in my mind that he's not. You guys told me that he is and I think you're flat out wrong, so I made my argument against it. That is all. And why are you up there picking apart Jim Jam for saying he "can" see something rather than "do" ? Maybe he means the same thing ?

Anyway, I don't care if you agree or disagree, I can't change opinions, especially since you blow off my rebuttal in the next quote: lol


Only if this were "real life" would that assessment be accurate, but these are only movies and they were written and made 3 years apart.

:confused: :confused: :confused: Then why even inject the bipolar label into the discussion in the first place ? :rolleyes: Oh okay, yeah, let's label this character as bipolar, because we don't like him or the actor who played him, but then when somebody offers rebuttal because it doesn't fit the timeline of said disorder, we'll blow it off as being "only movies." :rolleyes: Wow JT, I'm really disappointed and would expect more from you in that regard. That sort of comment about being "only movies" sounds like something a Prequel Lover would say to stillakid. lol

so you guys are gonna quote WebMD and say 'yeppers, looky here, Ani is bipolar it fits the description' but of course then it's not only a movie . . . but hey guys, if Anakin was clinically bipolar why would he be magically 'better' in the next movie ? Gah ! It's only a movie !

Seriously, WTF ? :D

Markimus
09-24-2005, 08:58 PM
I still just don't get it... why the "haters" attack the PT sooo much. Especially after ROTS which really ties things up and makes you understand Eps 1-2 even more. ROTS was a great Star Wars movie.... how can you disagree with this ? Fans agree because so many saw it.

I'm just glad we didn't have the internet in the 70's and early 80's because I guarantee these same "haters" would be tearing that series apart as well. You know you would ! You're chat subjects would be (how can Vader be Luke's father... its crazy to make Yoda a muppet...Luke and Leia bro and sis ? crazy!...look at Luke, he's a whiney kid then grows up..he must be bipolar !)

The Anakin as bipolar talk is useless. He had some whiney moments in Ep 2 but he is a teenager and Luke was whiney in ANH !! It's the same... you just choose to ignore that because the OT movies are considered golden because they are a part of your youth.

bottom line... if you don't like the PT .. too bad! It's half of Star Wars now...you can always choose to be Harry Potter fans - I'm sure that series will hold up after 6 movies..(not)

stillakid
09-24-2005, 09:37 PM
I still just don't get it... why the "haters" attack the PT sooo much.
Uh, because they suck. :yes: They fail not only relative to the established universe that is Star Wars (from the OT), but they are also just poorly written and executed films in and of themselves. If they weren't Star Wars films, I doubt that many people would bother to defend them so much. But that's just my own opinion of a hypothetical that can never be known.

Nobody is telling you or anyone else to not like them. Like 'em...don't like 'em. Who gives a crap? Find your passion and run with it. :love:

JediTricks
09-24-2005, 10:15 PM
Not really, considering that Mace tells Anakin that Palps has control of the Senate, the same Senate who earlier gives Palpatine further executive powers as told by Obi-Wan to Anakin. I don't think it's an assumption there.But where in that exactly is it shown that Anakin equates a move against Palpatine as the same thing as a move against the Senate? In Anakin's mind, perhaps taking Palpatine out of control of the Senate will place that control back in the hands of the Senate itself, we don't know what he's thinking, so we have to assume that info.


And why are you up there picking apart Jim Jam for saying he "can" see something rather than "do" ? Maybe he means the same thing ?I didn't pick him apart, it was 1 sentence about it, I merely pointed out that his usage suggested something that doesn't support his argument from his own perspective -- as it stands right now his use of the word denotes the ability of choice, so if he is saying he chooses to see it that way but it could also go the other way then it wouldn't be a fully-sold concept because there'd be enough leeway to drift hither or yon.


:confused: :confused: :confused: Then why even inject the bipolar label into the discussion in the first place ? :rolleyes: Oh okay, yeah, let's label this character as bipolar, because we don't like him or the actor who played him, but then when somebody offers rebuttal because it doesn't fit the timeline of said disorder, we'll blow it off as being "only movies." :rolleyes: Wow JT, I'm really disappointed and would expect more from you in that regard. That sort of comment about being "only movies" sounds like something a Prequel Lover would say to stillakid. lolHonestly, I expected a little better from you - folks labelled the character "biploar" because of how he acted in AOTC, not because they "didn't like him or the actor who played him". ROTS cannot change Anakin's violent mood swings in the previous film, and since this isn't a real character there's no in-depth analysis of the guy over his lifetime, so we go with what we see and we use a label to describe it based on that observation.


so you guys are gonna quote WebMD and say 'yeppers, looky here, Ani is bipolar it fits the description' but of course then it's not only a movie . . . but hey guys, if Anakin was clinically bipolar why would he be magically 'better' in the next movie ? Gah ! It's only a movie ! You are the one complaining that the supplied psychological descriptions of bipolar disorder aren't nuanced enough for a character we've seen in action for a total of roughly 4 hours -- the question says "why Anakin was magically better in the next movie" but it seems like the answer appears to be exactly that, it's a different movie, it's not precisely consistant because it's not real and was made-up at a different time.

2-1B
09-25-2005, 06:33 PM
Nope, not the answer at all. There are millions of teens every generation who grow out of "Anakin type" behavior and into productive adults who shed those traits thus proving they weren't bipolar. Of course ROTS can't change his mood swings in the previous film, but it certainly does show the character was not bipolar. I guess it is impossible that George wrote Anakin in AOTC thinking "hey I'll make him a pain in the neck teen and then in the next one he'll have matured out of that phase."

You're right, JT. Anakin Skywalker is a bipolar teen played by a bad cottonmouted actor.
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

stillakid
09-25-2005, 07:08 PM
I guess it is impossible that George wrote Anakin in AOTC thinking "hey I'll make him a pain in the neck teen and then in the next one he'll have matured out of that phase."



While it is possible that you are correct, is it also possible that you're giving George too much credit? You're assuming that he is a good enough writer to have thought that deeply into writing this character across a three episode arc. No? Yes?

I have reason to not believe that he's capable of such a thing, which is why I have the opinion I do.

Yet even if you are correct, I still don't see that this scenario as you write above was executed well at all. The character comes across as uneven from start to finish and not in a way that leads from squeaky clean Richie Cuningham-boy to Darth Vader. Uneven writing is not synonomous with having a character with mood swings wild enough to beat even the worst case of PMS.

2-1B
09-25-2005, 07:12 PM
[QUOTE=stillakid]While it is possible that you are correct, is it also possible that you're giving George too much credit?[quote]

No.

stillakid
09-25-2005, 07:56 PM
[QUOTE=stillakid]While it is possible that you are correct, is it also possible that you're giving George too much credit?[quote]

No.


Maybe you're right. He does place himself right up there with the likes of Shane Black, Frank Darabont, and David Mamet.

JimJamBonds
09-25-2005, 10:16 PM
But where in that exactly is it shown that Anakin equates a move against Palpatine as the same thing as a move against the Senate? In Anakin's mind, perhaps taking Palpatine out of control of the Senate will place that control back in the hands of the Senate itself, we don't know what he's thinking, so we have to assume that info.

I think I have a bit of an idea as to what Anakin was thinking... I could be wrong though................


"I agree their next more will be against the Senate."

2-1B
09-25-2005, 11:24 PM
Maybe you're right. He does place himself right up there with the likes of Shane Black, Frank Darabont, and David Mamet.

I wasn't talking about his writing as a whole, just the CONCEPT of Anakin going from being a pain in 2 to maturing beyond that in 3.

The quality of writing is certainly up for debate but that's not what I was talking about. :thumbsup:


I think I have a bit of an idea as to what Anakin was thinking... I could be wrong though................


"I agree their next more will be against the Senate."

That was his Bipolar Disorder rearing its ugly head. He didn't really mean it.

seanmcfripp
09-26-2005, 07:46 AM
[s]You're right, JT. Anakin Skywalker is a bipolar teen played by a bad cottonmouted actor.
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

I knew you'd see the light! Welcome to "our" team, Ceasar!:D

JediTricks
09-27-2005, 07:49 PM
I think I have a bit of an idea as to what Anakin was thinking... I could be wrong though................
Here's the thing though, that line comes after the events we're talking about had already culminated and also after Anakin had pledged to do whatever Palpatine asks of him, which doesn't apply a lot of strength behind Anakin's agreement, at this point Anakin comes off as doing and saying whatever his new master says to which I don't think lends weight behind the possibility that Anakin acted out of fear that the Jedi Council would move against the Senate.

The first time you watched the movie, when Anakin cut off Mace's hand, did you *really* think that Anakin believed the Jedi were planning to move against the Senate separate from Palpatine?

JimJamBonds
09-27-2005, 11:16 PM
Here's the thing though, that line comes after the events we're talking about had already culminated and also after Anakin had pledged to do whatever Palpatine asks of him, which doesn't apply a lot of strength behind Anakin's agreement, at this point Anakin comes off as doing and saying whatever his new master says to which I don't think lends weight behind the possibility that Anakin acted out of fear that the Jedi Council would move against the Senate.

Yes it is after the events but Vader says "I agree the Jedi's next move...." then Palps says 'every last Jedi including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi is now an enemy of the Republic." Vader responds to that with "I understand." which I take to mean that he does not agree with Palps, there is some 'self thought' in there. Heck when Padme asks about Obbers again Vader says "we can only hope he stayed loyal" (or something like that I don't exactly remember). Also when Vader and Obbers meet on Mustafar they have that little chat about things, Vader does not go into direct slice and dice mode, only after its clear that Obi won't take Palps side.

JediTricks
09-28-2005, 03:27 PM
I dunno, all that seems like after he went all Sith zombified, I never got a feeling he was thinking for himself until he talked to Padme on Mustafar and even then I wasn't totally sure whether he was really plotting with her or just yanking her chain again.

You never answered my question.

JimJamBonds
09-30-2005, 12:02 AM
I dunno, all that seems like after he went all Sith zombified, I never got a feeling he was thinking for himself until he talked to Padme on Mustafar and even then I wasn't totally sure whether he was really plotting with her or just yanking her chain again.

Was that feeling just when talking to Padme or did it continue when talking to Obbers?


The first time you watched the movie, when Anakin cut off Mace's hand, did you *really* think that Anakin believed the Jedi were planning to move against the Senate separate from Palpatine?


Yes, yes I did. Which the Jedi were talking about doing (which has been pointed out that Anners wouldn't have full knowledge of). But what I think Anakin is talking about is a move against the entire Senate (or a healthy chunk) vs. just Palps and his goons (more realistic).

JediTricks
09-30-2005, 01:47 PM
Was that feeling just when talking to Padme or did it continue when talking to Obbers?Once Anakin started freaking out at Padme, it was like he went back fully into Sith Zombie mode, though again, I was never totally sure where he was in the scene to begin with.

stillakid
09-30-2005, 04:19 PM
though again, I was never totally sure where he was in the scene to begin with.

He was slightly to screen-right. :D

JediTricks
10-01-2005, 01:37 PM
He was slightly to screen-right. :D
Thank you Shecky, I didn't realize we had forumites from the Catskills.

stillakid
10-01-2005, 02:08 PM
Thank you Shecky, I didn't realize we had forumites from the Catskills.

Tip your waiter.