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View Full Version : How did the PT-era of the SW timeline play out in YOUR imagination?



seanmcfripp
09-09-2005, 11:09 AM
I'm putting this in the ROTS forum, since I'm of the opinion that it's the episode which has the most "stuff" we expected to see happen in the overall prequel arc...

Think 'a ways back with me, to a time when the OT was still relatively knew, and so was the notion of a trilogy of films that would take place before ANH. How did you imagine Anakin Skywalker's and Obi-wan Kenobi's story would be? We knew about most of the stuff that took place in ROTS: Obi-wan and Anakin have a sword fight, in which Anakin is gravely injured...the Clone Wars occur...the Emporer rises to power. Being a kid in the early and mid-eighties, those concepts were enough to blow my mind. I mean, how cool would it be to see Obi-wan as a younger man, a Jedi knight and general in the Clone Wars. How awesome would it be to see Anakin Skywalker as a jedi knight and be the greatest starfighter pilot in the galaxy? How intersting it would be to see the Republic before "the dark times"? And most of all, how darned cool would it be to see those Clone Wars?! I'm not a huge fan of war, but something with a cool name like "Clone Wars" in a science fiction movie sounds like my cup of tea.

Understand what I'm asking? I had years and years to imagine my own Anakin and Obi-wan and what they would do in these movies. I could probably write pages and pages of how I thought it would play out, which I'll probably end up doing later in this thread of course :p , but I want to hear some others describe their own PT universe. It's easy, just pretend you never saw the PT we all know and love/hate today, and describe your own PT, as if you know none of what you know now about how it actually happened.

Droid
09-09-2005, 01:23 PM
I've posted this before, but:

Anakin Skywalker and Owen SKYWALKER were brothers, with their wives, are farming on Tattooine (at a different farm for Pete's sake so the hiding place is better). Anakin is tired of the family life and the farm. He has wanderlust. Young Jedi Obi-wan Kenobi comes to Tatooine recruiting for people to fight in the Clone Wars, which are tearing the galaxy apart, because the Republic, which doesn't use Clones, is overwhelmed by the forces of the Mandalorians, who do. Anakin agrees to go because the Republic has more cash than soldiers and he wants the money, but also thinks the galaxy is worth fighting for. He leaves with Obi-wan. Owen is very bitter that Anakin is leaving and tells him not to go. The wife and Owen are pretty much out of the picture.

Obi-wan and Anakin become close fighting in the Clone Wars under Bail Organa, who owns R2-D2 and C-3P0, who would have virtually no contact with Obi-wan, Anakin, or any other character from the original trilogy. Anakin also works alongside, and perhaps under, a non-Jedi general named Tarkin.

Obi-wan and Anakin make a good team. They have Butch Cassidy and Sundance type adventures and they are both kind of like Han. Obi-wan is known as a bit of a rogue, impatient, reckless, sometimes angry. He and Anakin are a great fit. Obi-wan is promoted to General and people start to know the team as talented. Obi-wan senses how strong the force is in Anakin. He wants to train him, but isn't allowed to because Anakin is too old to be trained in the traditional sense, and he has a wife. So, Obi-wan trains him in secret, convinced he can do a good job.

But Anakin is greedier than Obi-wan. Obi-wan sees him use the Dark Side where necessary and is alarmed. Anakin goes for money and power. Obi-wan goes to his master, Yoda, and confesses what he has done. However, he is impudent with Yoda, showing his own flashes of anger. Yoda agrees that Anakin needs to be kept an eye so is made a Jedi Knight, so he can be watched.

Anakin is interested in status and in gaining more and more power. Though happy to be a Jedi, he rebukes the control the Jedi try to place on him. A politician named Palpatine, who was elected promising to end the Clone Wars, takes an interest in Anakin and offers him the universe.

At some point, Anakin goes home on leave and impregnates his wife. He insists that she remain on Tatooine because it is safer there.

Of course, you need lightsaber duels, so you would have some Sith Lords, who are working with the Mandalorians to take control of the galaxy. You could have had a bunch of Jedi fight Sith Lords, as there was no reason to limit them to two.

The Jedi work hard to destroy the cloning centers, the true reason the Mandalorians have success in the war, their sheer numbers.

During the Wars, the Republic is having a tough time so Palpatine declares himself the Emperor and the Republic the Empire, for security. He secretly offers Anakin the number two spot and Anakin agrees. Palpatine is a Sith who left the fold, because he wanted to rule alone, not be a part of the larger Sith, but perhaps Anakin never knows Palpatine is a Sith. Given that Anakin has always used the dark side when it suited him, it wouldn’t be such a drastic shift for Anakin to become evil. Anakin's turn would be more gradual and subtle.

The Wars are coming to a close and Palpatine orchestrates an event that leads the populace to believe the Jedi are a threat to the Republic. He announces they must be destroyed and puts Anakin in charge of it.

Yoda says that the Jedi must stop the Emperor and kill Anakin. Obi-wan goes to try to turn Anakin back to good, but is unable. They fight. Anakin is horribly injured. Obi-wan believes he is dead and takes his lightsaber.

He soon discovers Anakin lived and reemerges as Darth Vader, who is hunting down the remaining Jedi. With the populace against them, the Jedi are overwhelmed. The Empire could only have fallen with the Rebellion to support it.

Obi-wan goes to tell Anakin’s wife what has transpired and discovers she is pregnant. He says she must leave Tattooine. Owen is unwilling to leave Tatooine, but understands the threat. He sells the family farm and Owen and Beru go into hiding on the other side of the planet and assume the name Lars. Given that the wife lives on Tattooine and prenatal care isn’t what it could be, no one knows she is carrying twins.

The wife goes to Dagobah with Yoda. Yoda instructs Obi-wan to go watch after the Lars’ from a distance, since they are in danger and it is kind of Obi-wan’s fault. The twins are born. Yoda gives Leia to Organa to live with the royal family on Alderaan. The mother goes with Leia to Alderaan, to watch over her from a distance the way that Obi-wan was with Luke, only visiting Leia occasionally because she does not want to run the risk that Vader will find her and figure out they had a child.

The Emperor wants any children Anakin may have had before the accident. Anakin said he never had any, but does want to track down his wife. Vader can’t find anyone on Tattooine, but does track his wife to Alderaan. He talks with her and doesn’t think that she had children. He offers for her to come rule the galaxy as his queen. She rebukes him and he kills her.

Yoda gives Luke to Obi-wan. Yoda does not tell Organa or Obi-wan that there are two babies to keep the twins safe. Obi-wan gives Luke to Owen and agrees to watch over Luke, in exile, devastated at what he has done to the galaxy. Owen is happy to have the farm hand but tells Obi-wan to keep away. R2-D2 and C-3P0 end up with Antilles by the end. Obi-wan assumes the not so clever secret name Ben Kenobi. Owen, Beru, and Luke assume the name Lars. Luke does not know his last name is Skywalker until Obi-wan tells him years later. Yoda sits on Dagobah.

In addition to what I said, it could have been fleshed out with all sorts of interesting creatures, characters, and planets we are accustomed to (and got in the prequels).

JediTricks
09-10-2005, 03:47 AM
I never really put together a cohesive scenario for any of the prequel-themed stuff we heard about, at least I don't remember doing so. I mainly accepted the "feelings" we were given on those elements and that let my imagination drift lazily through lots of vague scenarios -- that's why I'm always bothered by people claiming I don't like the prequels simply because they don't live up to what I expected them to be, as I never had any beyond what the OT directly gave us in terms of story and quality.

As I said in my thread about how the prequels being in direct contrast to what Star Wars was about (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28846), Lucas originally made Star Wars specifically so that the audience would have to fill in the prequel blanks, the events of Eps 1 through 3, themselves with very little information while simultaneously trying to incorporate that into the unfolding story. He created a very spartan outline of past events to help write the OT story and give it weight without spelling everything out on screen (spelling out the prequel events was absolutely the opposite of the point of Star Wars), so as long as you used the sparse information given to you onscreen from the Episode 4-6 story, you couldn't be "wrong" about what happened because at the same time you also weren't totally "right", it was all in the ether.


When TPM came out, someone asked how we'd change it if we could, not just little heres and theres but everything. I came up with some fanciful tale that was a large paragraph, concentrating on building the pace and revealing the characters, and I thought it was good, but in hindsight it also was a bit limited by what we had in TPM itself. I think instead of reposting that, I will track it down and pull out the bare bones stuff and put together a very general outline here... now I just gotta find it. :p

stillakid
09-10-2005, 07:02 AM
Ditto kind of what JT said. I certainly believe that the PT should have gone down in a significantly different way, but it has nothing to do with what I wanted and everything to do with what had already been established. Some very basic continuity issues were laid down as a foundation by the OT and summarily ignored, stomped on, trampled on, and outright shredded by the PT. The PT has virtually nothing to do with what Star Wars is supposed to be or be about.

That said, I don't want to spend a lot of time doing this (other things to worry about right now), but we should have joined a twenty-something Obers in progress. He's a relatively new Jedi himself, perhaps just having "graduated." Now he's on some kind of "patrol" where he runs into some guy named Anakin Skywalker, who is a pilot on a space freighter. Their ship runs into trouble, Anakin shows off his prowess and Obers recognizes the potential Force ability in the guy. At some point in the storyline they both wind up at Obi Wan's brother's house on Tatooine.

Obi, being the young brash and not yet humbled Jedi that he is, decides that he should train this guy himself. While this is going on, an ambitious Senator (Palpatine) is making his play for political control. For some reason (this is where the specifics of writing would come in), Anakin starts listening to Palpatine's ideas, first on the "TV" and then somehow in person. Anakin isn't being manipulated or seduced at this point. He really believes in what Palps is saying. The only problem is that Palps is a lying SOB with different goals in mind. Anakin is just too young, naive, and ignorant to realize what's really going on (a lot like the neo-con Young Republican hicks of today).

At a point very similar to Luke's experience on Dagobah, Obi "loses" Anakin to this outside influence. Anakin's training isn't complete and he is most vulnerable to "seduction," which is exactly what happens. The rest is history.

I've mainly stuck to the Obi/Anakin storyline here, but a large if not larger part of the Prequels would have/should have been concentrating on the "Machevellian" political aspects of Palpatine's usurping of power from an apathetic population. It would have made for a very interesting parallel in our own current situation with this administration "stealing" one election and then managing to do it a second time. But instead, Lucas opted for mindless bubblegum antics and paperthin plots with even more poorly drawn characters. Gotta sell toys to the kiddies, ya know. :bandit:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-10-2005, 11:09 AM
I saw the OT for the first time in 1997 so I didn't really have much time to come up with my own story before TPM came out.

I have no problem with the PT jiving with the OT. I can't think of anything that doesn't . . . I mean, sure there's Yoda as Obi-Wan's master, but he never said he was his ONLY master; and Padmé dying when Leia was young, but old enough to remember her, but Leia can sense more familial bonds anyway (she apparently always knew she was Luke's sister, and Luke had no idea; so it's entirely possible that Leia's Force abilities are more feeling-based anyway).

The only thing that caused people to think Obi-Wan and Owen were brothers was the novelization of ROTJ, am I right? That's not very much to base something on. There have always been extra details from the books that have no merit in the actual films.

I think the main problem that most people have with the PT is that it's not how they imagined it, and they need to get over that.

stillakid
09-10-2005, 12:16 PM
I think the main problem that most people have with the PT is that it's not how they imagined it, and they need to get over that.


Yes, you "think," yet you do not really know. We've said again and again that our discontent stems from fundamental and "proveable" issues that exist between the OT and the PT yet PT Defenders feel the need to make excuses and psychoanalyze the rest of us who don't want to rationalize away every problem that exists just to preserve an artificial sense of "fandom." I think Defenders need to get over that and come to grips with reality.

Rogue II
09-10-2005, 01:39 PM
I pretty much agree with JT and stillakid.


Yes, you "think," yet you do not really know. We've said again and again that our discontent stems from fundamental and "proveable" issues that exist between the OT and the PT yet PT Defenders feel the need to make excuses and psychoanalyze the rest of us who don't want to rationalize away every problem that exists just to preserve an artificial sense of "fandom." I think Defenders need to get over that and come to grips with reality.

A bit harsh, but true. I won't bash people who like the PT, so don't tell me I have to like it in order to be a Star Wars fan. It's just a matter of opinion. There are parts of the PT films I like, but as a whole, I just can't appreciate them the way I do the OT.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-10-2005, 07:29 PM
Yes, you "think," yet you do not really know. We've said again and again that our discontent stems from fundamental and "proveable" issues that exist between the OT and the PT yet PT Defenders feel the need to make excuses and psychoanalyze the rest of us who don't want to rationalize away every problem that exists just to preserve an artificial sense of "fandom." I think Defenders need to get over that and come to grips with reality.
Issues? What issues? :confused: The only ones I can think of are the ones I mentiones in my post above. If you'd like, please mention any ones you can think of.

I'm not saying anyone has to love anything, but there's really nothing anyone (except for George) can do to change the prequels. They're here, and they're not what everyone expected. But, it's what we got. So "come to grips with reality" and realize that this is all we're going to get as far as prequels go. No matter how much you hate them, no matter how much you'd like to change them, and no matter how much they don't fit in with the OT, they're here to stay.

I'm not bashing anyone who doesn't like the prequels, and I'd like the same treatment in return.

stillakid
09-10-2005, 08:07 PM
I'm not bashing anyone who doesn't like the prequels, and I'd like the same treatment in return.

Sorry for any misunderstanding but that's sure what it sounds like when someone ignores clear statements about why we say what we say in favor of coming up with an alternative reason why we say what we say. If I or anyone tells you that we believe the PT should have been like X because that's what the OT established, then that's the fact. Not your alternative that we are just bagging on it because we "imagined" something radically different than what we got. On the contrary, we expected something very different than we is there because that is what the OT established. Very very different scenario than what you suggested.

2-1B
09-11-2005, 02:47 AM
Hilarious.

JabbaJohn posts what he believes to be the reason for people (in general) to not like the prequels, stillakid takes issue with being ID'd that way (and I don't blame you stillakid, really I don't because as you said, you HAVE laid out the reasons you find fault :) ) BUT then stillakid goes and does the exact same thing he didn't want done to him . . . and say that Prequel Fans feel the need to rationalize away problems to meet a level of fandom. Now please tell me, stillakid, how THAT does not smack of the same psychoanalyzing you accused the other side of doing ? lol lol lol

Rogue 2, I respect and completely agree with your post that it's just a matter of opinion but I don't think that was the best quote to put it under. :crazed:

2-1B
09-11-2005, 02:59 AM
As for my imagination's PT era timeline, I didn't think that much about it as a kid, I didn't care. I watched the movies and enjoyed them for the most part, but I didn't think much about what happened as far as the backstory. My imagination was more geared toward coming up with scenarios for my action figures to get into, and that often involved cross overs with GI Joe and their superior articulation.

The way the OT is written, there is actually a good amount of leeway as far as the backstory goes because there really isn't that much said about it in the films. So really, what might have been vs. what has become reality are only 2 of the possibilities in my mind because I could think of several others, too.

I'll tell you one character I wouldn't have even bothered to include in the PT, C-3P0. He's annoying enough in the OT so in my PT, I would give the audience a break from him (something George failed to do in 1 and 2 but thankfully accomplished in 3).

If anything, I'd make the PT completely without Threepio and just have him show up in 4 on the Tantive. Artoo rocks and totally gets my **** hard, so he'd be involved in my PT for sure, he would serve the same function as he does now, knowing more than he cops to, and Threepio would be equally as ignorant as he is with his current memory wipe. But I'd rather him be ignorant to things based on not being in my PT in the first place. :)

stillakid
09-11-2005, 08:19 AM
Hilarious.

JabbaJohn posts what he believes to be the reason for people (in general) to not like the prequels, stillakid takes issue with being ID'd that way (and I don't blame you stillakid, really I don't because as you said, you HAVE laid out the reasons you find fault :) ) BUT then stillakid goes and does the exact same thing he didn't want done to him . . . and say that Prequel Fans feel the need to rationalize away problems to meet a level of fandom. Now please tell me, stillakid, how THAT does not smack of the same psychoanalyzing you accused the other side of doing ? lol lol lol


Well, I see where you're coming from, but I do believe there is a distinct difference. In "my" case, I have actual dialogue and action to point to (from the OT) that can be shown to literally and objectively contradict what we have seen in the Prequels. That there are contradictions is not in question. The "conflict" (if you want to call it that) is what we choose to do with those contradictions. Someone like me calls Lucas on it and cries foul giving no ground to extracurricular explanations to bridge the gap. Someone like you, for instance (I'm assuming here), makes the active choice to find a way to jigger what is literal into something that is figurative to come up with a "bridge" per se that kinda sorta makes it seem like there is no contradiction in the first place.

For instance, Obi Wan specifically says over the course of 3 movies in various ways that his own Master Jedi was Yoda. I doubt that anyone who was alive and conscious during the premiere screenings in 1977, 1980, and 1983 misread that to mean that Obi Wan also had other teachers and that Yoda was merely the Kindergarten gnome. The intent as written by Lucas, Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan was crystal clear...Obi Wan had one teacher and that teacher was Yoda. Period.

Soooo, enter the Prequel era and on page one (maybe 2 or 3, I haven't read it in a while) the audience is (or should be) shocked to see that Obi Wan isn't being taught by Yoda at all. And what's more, he is never taught by Yoda nor is it ever even implied that it happened (as far as I can recall). So what happened? Well, obviously Lucas made the decision to add in a brand new character for reasons we still have yet to ascertain fully. I have my suspicions but that's all they are. Anyway, the facts are plain as day...the OT says that Yoda was Obi Wan's only teacher and the Prequels say otherwise. My "camp" cries foul at this and says that the Prequels are in error. The other "camp" jiggers the facts and interprets all sorts of things in order to bridge the gap and make it seem like there is nothing wrong at all.

So, while my ideas of why someone might rationalize these sorts of things might be construed as psychoanalyzing, that doesn't impact the fact that there is rationalizing going on to begin with. So I will apologize for suggesting that I know why (fandom) someone chooses to rationalize. I don't really know why that happens, though I'm sure that fandom has something to do with it on some level. Others would have to answer that to be sure. :)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-11-2005, 01:56 PM
Artoo rocks and totally gets my **** hard
:eek: Whoa!!! Too much information!!! :D


Soooo, enter the Prequel era and on page one (maybe 2 or 3, I haven't read it in a while) the audience is (or should be) shocked to see that Obi Wan isn't being taught by Yoda at all. And what's more, he is never taught by Yoda nor is it ever even implied that it happened (as far as I can recall). So what happened? Well, obviously Lucas made the decision to add in a brand new character for reasons we still have yet to ascertain fully. I have my suspicions but that's all they are. Anyway, the facts are plain as day...the OT says that Yoda was Obi Wan's only teacher and the Prequels say otherwise. My "camp" cries foul at this and says that the Prequels are in error. The other "camp" jiggers the facts and interprets all sorts of things in order to bridge the gap and make it seem like there is nothing wrong at all.


One of the first scenes in TPM goes like this:
OBI-WAN : I have a bad feeling about this.
QUI-GON : I don't sense anything.
OBI-WAN : It's not about the mission, Master, it's something...elsewhere...elusive.
QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
QUI-GON : .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.

There's an instance of Obi-Wan being under the teachings of Yoda. Though of course Qui-Gon is his direct master, he is still taught and mentored by Yoda. And as far as it not being implied (as you say), it is implied in AOTC that all Jedi are trained by Yoda at a young age. (You asked for it, so don't get mad at me for making rationalizations.)


In "my" case, I have actual dialogue and action to point to (from the OT) that can be shown to literally and objectively contradict what we have seen in the Prequels.

I know Obi-Wan said Yoda was his Master, but he never once said anything about him being his ONLY Master. If memory serves me correctly, this is what he said about Yoda:

"Go to the Dagobah. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."
"Was I any different when you taught me?"
"I thought I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

Sure, it implies that Yoda was his only master, but he never explilcitly says anything like, "Yoda was my only one and true Master." If I'm missing it, please include dialogue, as you said you would.

If you were to introduce someone to a teacher you had 30 years ago, would you say, "This is my teacher, Mr. Smith," or would you say, "This is one of my teachers, Mr. Smith; well you see, I had many of them, but this is the only important one right now, so don't get confused and think he was the only one?"

This is just another case of people interpreting the OT differently from how others did.

2-1B
09-11-2005, 02:03 PM
Wow, stillakid, I thought you had gotten over that as we've gone round and round about it before but you obviously haven't. :)


Someone like you, for instance (I'm assuming here), makes the active choice to find a way to jigger what is literal into something that is figurative to come up with a "bridge" per se that kinda sorta makes it seem like there is no contradiction in the first place.
How f***ing insulting. Yeah that's it, I sit around watching movies and make the active choice . . . to do anything.

What a waste of my time I've been doing by talking about movies with you. Now instead of backing up my reasons for why I feel the way I do, it's written off as jiggering. You're incredibly smug.

I'll show you the same disrespect then and say that in the hypothetical scenario that you're actually right, well then it makes you 3 times as foolish as me because while I sit here and jigger things around just to satisfy my need to have the prequels work since it's soooooo important that I jigger them around, well how defective does it make you then to take up the cross of having to point out to people on the internet how foolish they are for jiggering things around in the first place ? Maybe your time would be better served spending it with your family instead of telling us how wrong we are. Your infallibility isn't being put to that much use on the web, I'm afraid you are wasting your talents.

LAUGHABLE, MAN ! lol

Something interesting that QLD once told me:
"Arguing about Star Wars on the internet is like the Special Olympics. You might win, but you're still a retard."




One of the first scenes in TPM goes like this:
OBI-WAN : I have a bad feeling about this.
QUI-GON : I don't sense anything.
OBI-WAN : It's not about the mission, Master, it's something...elsewhere...elusive.
QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
QUI-GON : .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.

There's an instance of Obi-Wan being under the teachings of Yoda. Though of course Qui-Gon is his direct master, he is still taught and mentored by Yoda. And as far as it not being implied (as you say), it is implied in AOTC that all Jedi are trained by Yoda at a young age. (You asked for it, so don't get mad at me for making rationalizations.)



I know Obi-Wan said Yoda was his Master, but he never once said anything about him being his ONLY Master. If memory serves me correctly, this is what he said about Yoda:

"Go to the Dagobah. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."
"Was I any different when you taught me?"
"I thought I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

Sure, it implies that Yoda was his only master, but he never explilcitly says anything like, "Yoda was my only one and true Master." If I'm missing it, please include dialogue, as you said you would.

If you were to introduce someone to a teacher you had 30 years ago, would you say, "This is my teacher, Mr. Smith," or would you say, "This is one of my teachers, Mr. Smith; well you see, I had many of them, but this is the only important one right now, so don't get confused and think he was the only one?"

This is just another case of people interpreting the OT differently from how others did.
Please John, please stop jiggering.

Thank you. :)

stillakid
09-11-2005, 02:24 PM
Wow, stillakid, I thought you had gotten over that as we've gone round and round about it before but you obviously haven't. :)



How f***ing insulting. Yeah that's it, I sit around watching movies and make the active choice . . . to do anything.

What a waste of my time I've been doing by talking about movies with you. Now instead of backing up my reasons for why I feel the way I do, it's written off as jiggering. You're incredibly smug.

I'll show you the same disrespect then and say that in the hypothetical scenario that you're actually right, well then it makes you 3 times as foolish as me because while I sit here and jigger things around just to satisfy my need to have the prequels work since it's soooooo important that I jigger them around, well how defective does it make you then to take up the cross of having to point out to people on the internet how foolish they are for jiggering things around in the first place ? Maybe your time would be better served spending it with your family instead of telling us how wrong we are. Your infallibility isn't being put to that much use on the web, I'm afraid you are wasting your talents.

LAUGHABLE, MAN ! lol

Something interesting that QLD once told me:
"Arguing about Star Wars on the internet is like the Special Olympics. You might win, but you're still a retard."
I certainly didn't mean to be insulting. And I don't see why anyone would take that as insulting in the first place. :confused: "Making things work" is a normal human activity, it just so happens that I make the choice not do that when it comes to this story. You do. What's the problem? :confused:

And who's infallible? Besides the Pope I mean? You guys sure get worked up about this stuff. Weird.


:eek: Whoa!!! Too much information!!! :D



One of the first scenes in TPM goes like this:
OBI-WAN : I have a bad feeling about this.
QUI-GON : I don't sense anything.
OBI-WAN : It's not about the mission, Master, it's something...elsewhere...elusive.
QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
QUI-GON : .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.

There's an instance of Obi-Wan being under the teachings of Yoda. Though of course Qui-Gon is his direct master, he is still taught and mentored by Yoda. And as far as it not being implied (as you say), it is implied in AOTC that all Jedi are trained by Yoda at a young age. (You asked for it, so don't get mad at me for making rationalizations.) Is it implied that ALL Jedi are trained by Yoda at a young age? Where is that in the script? I'm an open book. Educate me.




I know Obi-Wan said Yoda was his Master, but he never once said anything about him being his ONLY Master. If memory serves me correctly, this is what he said about Yoda:

"Go to the Dagobah. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."
"Was I any different when you taught me?"
"I thought I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

Sure, it implies that Yoda was his only master, but he never explilcitly says anything like, "Yoda was my only one and true Master." If I'm missing it, please include dialogue, as you said you would. You did it for me. The dialogue says that Yoda was Obi Wan's teacher. "You will learn from Yoda, THE Jedi Master who instructed me." I must've missed the part that suggested that Obi was taught by somebody else. Maybe it's in a version I don't have.


If you were to introduce someone to a teacher you had 30 years ago, would you say, "This is my teacher, Mr. Smith," or would you say, "This is one of my teachers, Mr. Smith; well you see, I had many of them, but this is the only important one right now, so don't get confused and think he was the only one?"

This is just another case of people interpreting the OT differently from how others did. I'm not "interpreting." I'm taking a hyper-literal view of the story and dialogue. Apparently that's a problem as I'm supposed to be drooling all over the Prequels and their genius. I'll work on that.:love:

2-1B
09-11-2005, 02:40 PM
I certainly didn't mean to be insulting. And I don't see why anyone would take that as insulting in the first place. :confused: "Making things work" is a normal human activity, it just so happens that I make the choice not do that when it comes to this story. You do. What's the problem? :confused:

And who's infallible? Besides the Pope I mean? You guys sure get worked up about this stuff. Weird.

You say that people make something work in spite of documented (by you) unquestionable fact that the facts of the matter are to the contrary of what we have "jiggered."

I have NEVER sat down and watched a movie, then "decided" to make something work. Either it does or it doesn't work for me. PERIOD.

That is incredibly insulting, you god damn well know it, so don't feign surprise with me and ask "why is that insulting?" You're much smarter than that, stillakid, you know exactly what you are doing so please don't say **** like that and then turn around and go to the "awwww why are you guys getting so worked up?" card. lol

Believe me, I don't get worked up over this crap in the way you think I do. I LAUGH as I type this stuff up . . . just ask Jim Jam Bonds, ask him about our ride home from Green Bay last night and the "forums talk" and all the laughter we had about how stupid some of this stuff is.

JediTricks
09-11-2005, 04:41 PM
Alright, break it up, this thread has a topic and bickering on and on about it won't change anything, and is taking the discussion away from the intended topic, we've all danced this same dance before, we all know where we stand, and we all know that we're not convincing the other side, so just leave it out of this thread.

JediTricks
09-11-2005, 05:18 PM
Whoa!!! Too much information!!! Yeah, no kidding. Drinking and forum posting don't mix!


So, I checked my post from 5 years ago about how I would have pitched a totally free Ep 1, and I see that even there I kinda was stuck with pieces of the framework from TPM. Here's that post:

If forced to pitch a trilogy, I'd have made Ep 1 start 25 years before ANH, with Obi-Wan not yet training Anakin as his padawan.

A mid-30s Obi-Wan would start off the film splitting away from the Jedi council, all of whom are refusing to help the republic and specifically Alderraan in the clone war. While Obi-Wan is en route to Alderraan, we learn of the plight of the Queen of Naboo, the young queen who's body of advisors have created the clones to create war. However, the queen is greatly opposed to this, but tricked into going along by the senator who represents the Naboo system and is secretly an evil Sith master who is manipulating all of Naboo's governing officials. Obi-Wan goes off to help Bail Organa, who makes the Jedi knight a general for all his good advice and leading of troops into battle. During one of these ground-to-space battles, Obi-Wan encounters a freighter with R2-D2 and C-3PO as 2 of the ship's many droids, and a co-pilot named Anakin Skywalker, a brash young man in his early-to-mid teens who's a fantastic pilot, has a quick temper... and has something extra special about him.

Obi-Wan pairs up with Anakin and they go off to fight the rest of the clone war, and during this, they get split up sometime towards the middle of the film just as Obi-Wan is explaining to Anakin why the Jedi knight feels Anakin would make a great Jedi with the right training. When split up, Obi-Wan is forced to battle some young men who have decided to take upon themselves to make lightsabers and learn the ways of the Force without any guidance or real skill, and end up becoming dark Jedi, some with lots of raw power, some with little talent, but all fairly dangerous. As Obi-Wan battles these youngsters (one of whom could be extra lucky and could be Boba Fett... perhaps), Anakin finds out about the Queen being opposed to the clone war and learns something even more shocking, the Queen is targeted for assassination by someone within her government because she is the only person who can bring peace to this conflict.

As Anakin and Obi-Wan reunite, Anakin explains the situation to his new friend and they go racing off to Naboo to save this young Queen and hopefully bring about the end of the war. At this point, we learn more about Senator Palpatine's devious plot to manipulate every side of the republic in order to get to power, but the Jedi order are not as easily controlled and Palpatine discusses some of these issues with his puppets back on Naboo.

While en route to Naboo, Obi-Wan starts teaching Anakin the ways of the Force, and finds that teaching is not quite as simple as it seemed when he was younger. Once Anakin brings the ship he and his new Jedi master are on out of Hyperspace, he has to carefully maneuver the freighter safely onto the planet without detection, another feat of piloting skill. When on the planet, our two heroes make their way to the capital city of Naboo and come across security droid and clone resistance before actually getting near the queen.

Once in the bustling Theed palace marketplace, a courtyard full of droids and traders of all walks of life, we see that Obi-Wan is quite adept at more than just the lightsaber as he exercises his mastery of the Jedi arts to convince traders to help our duo learn more as they sneak about. Finally, they learn about a public gathering in the marketplace where the Queen will make one of her regular appearances, and this gathering will be the place of her assassination, which will then be blamed on Alderraan with the assistance of Senator Palpatine and his pawns, the governing advisors and heads of Naboo. This part is building with suspense and action as our two heroes first attempt to sneak closer to save the queen, and then when they fail that way, remove their disguises and begin the hard fight against the well-armed and well-trained Naboo Royal Security Forces, as well as their clone and droid reinforcements.

Obi-Wan believes he may have found out where the assassin is, and sends Anakin, with blasters in-hand, to defend the queen while the Jedi knight goes after the assassin. The scene hits a fevered pitch as we see Anakin first try to avoid hurting as many people as he can, and then just gets desperate when he feels his time running out, while Obi-Wan simultaneously tracks his prey, destroying enemy clones and droids as he hunts the hunter. Finally, Anakin reaches the Queen and quickly explains the situation as best he can, and there's an instant attraction between the two teenagers, although the sense of imminent doom is lurking.

As Obi-Wan climbs the catwalks of the surrounding buildings of the marketplace, leaping huge distances in a stealthy manner, Anakin senses danger much closer than the assassin out on the outskirts, but isn't sure what to do, and panics. Just then, Obi-Wan finds the assassin, but the assassin is well-armed and gives the Jedi Master a real battle. As Obi-Wan battles, Anakin springs forward just as several of the Queen's closest advisors turn on her when they realize that the assassination isn't going as planned. Anakin fights hard and furious, while Obi-Wan fights equally hard, but calm as he is secretly moving the assassin out of position.

Eventually, Anakin and the Queen have to take to the crowd as the Naboo Security Forces are loyal to Palpatine's people and turn on the Queen. Anakin and the Queen race through the crowd, deftly dodging blaster fire and staying low, for a moment getting separated but quickly meeting back up. The scene stays with Anakin and the Queen as they get corralled towards a dead-end, and just as Anakin starts becoming totally unable to keep the enemy forces at bay, Obi-Wan drops out of the building from 50 feet above and saves his new padawan and the young Queen he's defending. The film ends with Anakin and Obi-Wan bringing the Queen and Bail Organa together to end the clone wars, and Obi-Wan sending a message to the Jedi council about the dark Jedi-poser youth he encountered and the new padawan learner he's taken as his charge.

I can see a lot of pieces of TPM shoving their way into my ideas and I don't love some of 'em, so here are some points I'd go with now:

Prequels would take place starting 30-40 years before ANH.
Obi-Wan would be in his mid-30s still, and have not yet found Anakin at the beginning of Ep 1. I liked the idea of starting with Obi-Wan and the clone wars already going, and having Obi-Wan not so directly attached to the Jedi council's apronstrings, Jedi should be a little more free-roaming, more romantic.
I would spend way more time with the villains, not a majority of the screentime but far more than the PT actually did. We'd see more of Palpatine's scheming, more talk between the
There should be something about Obi-Wan not being the only Jedi to disagree with the Jedi Council in order to fight in the war, as well as those split-off Jedi working to convince the Council to join the fight as there is more at stake than simply a small war between a few planets, including Dark Jedi getting involved. I can't have there being only a few Jedi involved in the Clone Wars after all.
Also, this would have been an ending only to the FIRST of the Clone Wars, like the end of WW1, not realizing it would bring another World War to bear in a short time.
I honestly don't know what kind of wars the Clone Wars would be about, but the PT version definitely wasn't it. I kinda liked someone's suggestion of them being 2 or more wars that were very similar, hence they were clones of each other, that would work with the WW1/WW2 thing. My original thoughts on the CW was that it was about fighting folks who wanted to use clones, or perhaps fighting a planet of clones (the Prince Lando Calrissian idea that was thrown about for the OT).
I'm not really that much in love with there being a central Jedi Council order, perhaps the council is a group of leaders from various sects or something. This could open the door to having Jedi Knights with vastly different styles, like having a European medieval knight fight alongside a Japanese samurai - both warriors driven to protect the republic with swords, and both working under a general code of honor and nobility, but vastly different styles and perhaps even different ideals of what those things mean.
Palpatine would be slowly manipulating the Republic at large to make them no longer respect and fear the Jedi, but find them almost laughable and threatening to their modern lives, which leads the people to be manipulated into destroying the Jedi... with the help of a young Jedi named Darth Vader. ;) Anyway, these are all just thoughts in my head, none of them are really things I've ever put together into anything cohesive.

stillakid
09-11-2005, 05:26 PM
You say that people make something work in spite of documented (by you) unquestionable fact that the facts of the matter are to the contrary of what we have "jiggered."

I have NEVER sat down and watched a movie, then "decided" to make something work. Either it does or it doesn't work for me. PERIOD.

That is incredibly insulting, you god damn well know it, so don't feign surprise with me and ask "why is that insulting?" You're much smarter than that, stillakid, you know exactly what you are doing so please don't say **** like that and then turn around and go to the "awwww why are you guys getting so worked up?" card. lol

Believe me, I don't get worked up over this crap in the way you think I do. I LAUGH as I type this stuff up . . . just ask Jim Jam Bonds, ask him about our ride home from Green Bay last night and the "forums talk" and all the laughter we had about how stupid some of this stuff is.

No, seriously, I never meant it to be insulting. Sorry if you took it that way. Not the intention at all. :sad: You're reading more into what I say than is actually there...dare I say interpreting my statements according to a preconceived point of view toward me? Or is that crossing some line too? :confused:

And I will agree that it is silly. :) For the record, because you brought it up, this stuff doesn't take time away from my family, thanks for asking, though I'm not sure why you would. :sur: I just write it because A) somebody asked and B) why the F not? And if I have a few moments of spare time when I'm taking a break from real work that is important, it provides minutes of entertainment for one reason or the other.

As JT says, we all have our ideas and are here sharing them. I just happen to believe that the OT states quite clearly what the PT should have followed in terms of continuity and any explanation that deviates from that constitutes rationalization. I'm not suggesting that it is a bad thing to do, I'm just defining what the process toward enjoyment is by some. It's neither here nor there and is certainly non-important in the grand scheme of things. :love:

2-1B
09-11-2005, 06:35 PM
As JT says, we all have our ideas and are here sharing them. I just happen to believe that the OT states quite clearly what the PT should have followed in terms of continuity and any explanation that deviates from that constitutes rationalization.

Great, then why take issue with JabbaJohn's belief that you and others don't like the PT because it doesn't follow what you expected to see ? :) We might rationalize, but maybe then you are a fundamentalist . . . you should read the Bible that way and join up with the literalists you like to lampoon. lol

You "just happen to believe that the OT states quite clearly" ("believe" as you are completely entitled to) how things should have gone. Fine. :)
John "just happens to think that the OT" does leave plenty of room for different interpretations. So what I wonder is how can you say that you're of the opinion that the OT lays it out clearly and anyone who disagrees is stretching to make it work, but when John or somebody offers the exact same scenario from the other side of the SW coin, you took issue with it. That is what prompted my replies. :)

Markimus
09-11-2005, 10:19 PM
See - Stillakid is wrong in this thread too.

Without going into too much.. Obi-Wan says Yoda was the Jedi who instructed him.. but he never says Yoda was HIS master. So its never definatively stated in the OT. Do you remember the scenes where Yoda is instructing groups of children in Ep 2? More than one....that could be how he did some teaching to Obi-Wan.... there's your explanation. No one was looking for Yoda to be his master in the prequels.

and for someone who condemns Lucas for making his new movies so much more about selling toys and making them just for kids...than his previous OT ...(which is a joke). Why are you looking for a green clone commander, #6 red clone , and a black clone pilot ?? Is that not hypocritical of you ? You seem to hate the prequels sooo much.

JEDITRICKS --I agree that I would have liked to have seen the Clone Wars start in Episode 1.. but mainly because I think Lucas does a great job editing and creating the eye candy we would have seen. The massive battles and such. I understand why he started with Anakin as a child... as weird as it might seem, I do think it makes his fall to the dark side that much more emotional (as we see in ep 3) ... seeing a character who was a happy kid grow and be corrupted by evil largely because of his love for his mother and then his wife....who could have predicted that in the 70s !! What a surprise -we can relate to Vader as a human!

Back in the 70s or 80s .. when I thought of a prequel... I think like most people .. when I heard of the Clone Wars.. I thought the "good guys" would be fighting against the clones... The Clones would be invading the civilized systems for some reason... so I think its kind of cool that the clones were on the "good" side (at first). I also would have thought that all of the movies would have involved Vader personally hunting down and killing the Jedi ... getting them all except Obi and Yoda. I guess, it would be hard to sustain that kind of action over 3 movies.... those are just some things I can remember thinking.

Droid
09-12-2005, 08:04 AM
I think one of the main things I would have done differently is to have had the Jedis be more human, with emotions and personalities. I was unhappy to see the Jedi became Vulcans. Ben tells Luke in Episode IV to "stretch out with his feelings". But in Episode II Palpatine tells Anakin that in time he will trust his feelings and become invincible, implying that feelings are bad, or on the road to the Dark Side. Prequel Jedi are constantly told to be "mindful of their feelings". Ben and Yoda of the original trilogy were warm characters. But the Jedi Council, Yoda, Mace, of the prequels were all robots. Qui-Gon was the warmest, but it was implied he was a rogue of sorts. Maybe that was Lucas' point, that the Jedi sitting in their ivory tower, in large part led to their own downfall, but that message was muddled at best in its delivery. And either way, I would have rather seen the Jedi be warm characters, full of personality like Old Ben, something we would have mourned being wiped out.

On a side note, Attack of the Clones is an odd title for Episode II. The Clones don't attack until the end, and then they attack the bad guys. Attack of the Clones woudl have been a better title for Episode III. I really also thought the Clone Wars would inolve the Jedi fighting the clones in the wars, not with them. In another thread someone pointed out that calling the Clone Wars the Clones Wars is like calling the Revolutionary War the Hessian Wars.

stillakid
09-12-2005, 03:07 PM
See - Stillakid is wrong in this thread too. Hardly. But I'm glad that you're happy in your private fantasyland. :)


Without going into too much.. Obi-Wan says Yoda was the Jedi who instructed him.. but he never says Yoda was HIS master. So its never definatively stated in the OT. Do you remember the scenes where Yoda is instructing groups of children in Ep 2? More than one....that could be how he did some teaching to Obi-Wan.... there's your explanation. No one was looking for Yoda to be his master in the prequels. Uh, yeah, I was and I wasn't the only one. Your "explanation" is after-market rationalization. No more. No less. Am I condemning you for it? No. Have at it, but don't claim to tell me that I'm wrong when every fact points to the accuracy of my statements.


and for someone who condemns Lucas for making his new movies so much more about selling toys and making them just for kids...than his previous OT ...(which is a joke). Why are you looking for a green clone commander, #6 red clone , and a black clone pilot ?? Is that not hypocritical of you ? You seem to hate the prequels sooo much. Hypocritical of me? Um, I don't think so. I don't recall laying into the production design elements of the movies at all which is the primary reason I collect what I do. And sure, he's a Fu** up for making this more about the toys than about the story. But that just means that the story blows. I see now reason to blame the design guys for Lucas's shortcomings.


Great, then why take issue with JabbaJohn's belief that you and others don't like the PT because it doesn't follow what you expected to see ? :) We might rationalize, but maybe then you are a fundamentalist . . . you should read the Bible that way and join up with the literalists you like to lampoon. lol That IS funny! :) I hadn't ever thought of it that way. Some food for thought.

(You've got me smiling!)

But there is a, ahem...fundamental difference between taking the Bible literally and not giving an inch when it comes to fiction, and I am sure that you of all people recognize that.

As far as what someone like JabbaJohn says, his claim isn't that we don't like the PT because it doesn't follow what "we" expected to see. On the contrary. He assigned a rather random and erroneous cause to why we don't like the PT, that being that we were somehow still stuck in childhood or something to that effect. Point being, his concocted reasoning for why someone like me doesn't like the PT quite simply disregarded every claim to the contrary and belittled some very careful critique that has taken place not only by me, but by countless others as well. We aren't just out here saying superficial things like, "That was KickA$$!" or "That sucked!" as some of the kids here choose to do (not that there is anything wrong with that). But our ideas were being written off as being illogical, unimportant, and just flat out wrong. I fail to see how that could be a fair conclusion to draw when so many of "us" have the same issues. Yeah, if it was just one crackpot with an agenda against Lucas or Star Wars or geeks in general, then maybe you and he would have a point. But that isn't the case. From my own experience, there have been more people who have been disappointed by the Prequels than the other way around. All of us can't be wrong.


You "just happen to believe that the OT states quite clearly" ("believe" as you are completely entitled to) how things should have gone. Fine. :)
John "just happens to think that the OT" does leave plenty of room for different interpretations. So what I wonder is how can you say that you're of the opinion that the OT lays it out clearly and anyone who disagrees is stretching to make it work, but when John or somebody offers the exact same scenario from the other side of the SW coin, you took issue with it. That is what prompted my replies. :) I think I see what you're getting at. Let me try to explain the difference this way. By definition, since I am dealing in absolutes (ie. You will learn from Yoda, THE Jedi Master who instructed me), there is NO room for interpretation, therefore any deviance from that literal meaning constitutes rationalization.

As you so wisely pointed out, the similarities between the way I treat the Star Wars stories and the way Fundamental Religious Fanatics treat their chosen Holy Books is uncanny (and disturbingly similar! :Ponder: ) The "other side" starts out with the assumption that there are no absolutes and that EVERYTHING is open to interpretation. THAT is the line of demarcation.

As having written quite a bit myself and having read and spoken with many many writers, I know...let me not underemphasize that...I KNOW that when most writers sit down to pen a story, that they usually have very specific intent in mind. That some things can be interpreted differently is not what's in question. That can't always be helped. However, what the author intended is generally an absolute, and hopefully, if the author and the filmmakers have done their jobs correctly, everyone will be on the same page and get the message that was intended. Apparently and obviously in this case of Star Wars, something went terribly awry somewhere. The "argument" revolves around the question of exactly where the problem is and who is to "blame." Guys like Jabba suggest that someone like me just isn't "getting it" or "is too old" or any number of superficial reasons which shift the focus off the material itself. HIS absolute is that the stories are flawless. I suggest that the only way to view them as flawless is to rationalize the living sh** out of them. Ergo, conflict. :whip:

I only offer that the OT films, by their very nature of being made first, set up the continuity and expectations that we were eagerly awaiting if and when the Prequel films ever got made. Then when they finally were, after years of expectations set up by the original films themselves, the collective "What the **** is this?!" was let out across the land by so many more than just myself. Some chose to work around the "problems" and "enjoy it for what is was." Others refused to yield to what was viewed as substandard material from a guy who should have known better.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-12-2005, 05:13 PM
As far as what someone like JabbaJohn says, his claim isn't that we don't like the PT because it doesn't follow what "we" expected to see. On the contrary. He assigned a rather random and erroneous cause to why we don't like the PT, that being that we were somehow still stuck in childhood or something to that effect. Point being, his concocted reasoning for why someone like me doesn't like the PT quite simply disregarded every claim to the contrary and belittled some very careful critique that has taken place not only by me, but by countless others as well. We aren't just out here saying superficial things like, "That was KickA$$!" or "That sucked!" as some of the kids here choose to do (not that there is anything wrong with that). But our ideas were being written off as being illogical, unimportant, and just flat out wrong. I fail to see how that could be a fair conclusion to draw when so many of "us" have the same issues. Yeah, if it was just one crackpot with an agenda against Lucas or Star Wars or geeks in general, then maybe you and he would have a point. But that isn't the case. From my own experience, there have been more people who have been disappointed by the Prequels than the other way around. All of us can't be wrong.

But, it doesn't mean that YOU'RE the only right one, which is as it seems to you.

How is my statement wrong? You didn't expect to see Obi-Wan with any master than Yoda, and you don't like the new films because of that (and many other situations similar to that - acting, pacing, etc. aside). You drew what you thought were perfectly logical conclusions, and George drew different ones. You even continue this line of thought here:


I only offer that the OT films, by their very nature of being made first, set up the continuity and expectations that we were eagerly awaiting if and when the Prequel films ever got made. Then when they finally were, after years of expectations set up by the original films themselves, the collective "What the **** is this?!" was let out across the land by so many more than just myself.
Soooo . . . point out exactly how I'm wrong and you're right.


Guys like Jabba suggest that someone like me just isn't "getting it" or "is too old" or any number of superficial reasons which shift the focus off the material itself. HIS absolute is that the stories are flawless. I suggest that the only way to view them as flawless is to rationalize the living sh** out of them. Ergo, conflict.
When did I ever say anyone was too old? You are the ones generalizing and discriminating against people younger than you. Saying that all "kids" do is say how cool it was, or whatever. Is that why you think I'm mentally deficient, since I'm 15?


By definition, since I am dealing in absolutes
I knew you were a Sith lord! :D ;)


(ie. You will learn from Yoda, THE Jedi Master who instructed me), there is NO room for interpretation, therefore any deviance from that literal meaning constitutes rationalization.
Obviously it's open to interpretation, as that's what George did.

stillakid
09-12-2005, 05:53 PM
But, it doesn't mean that YOU'RE the only right one, which is as it seems to you.
So I take it by that statement that you believe that I could also be right?


How is my statement wrong? You didn't expect to see Obi-Wan with any master than Yoda, and you don't like the new films because of that (and many other situations similar to that - acting, pacing, etc. aside). You drew what you thought were perfectly logical conclusions, and George drew different ones. You even continue this line of thought here:


Soooo . . . point out exactly how I'm wrong and you're right.
Because the OT films are the established baseline of continuity, anything that follows them has the requirement to remain consistent EVEN IF the author makes the conscious choice to disregard said continuity. While such an author certainly has every right to do so, it does not make the subsequent new continuity the correct one, even if rationalization is employed to "bridge the gap" as it were. Unless alterations are made to the original continuity in order to account for the differences between it and the new ideas, the original continuity remains as the benchmark that all future storylines be judged.

So, what that means is that even though George decided to alter the established continuity of the OT by giving Obi Wan an alternate teacher, it remains a "wrong" element relative to the established continuity that he himself approved originally.

You're attempting to catch me in with what appears to be conflicting statements. Ironically, that's all I'm doing with Lucas.



When did I ever say anyone was too old? You are the ones generalizing and discriminating against people younger than you. Saying that all "kids" do is say how cool it was, or whatever. Is that why you think I'm mentally deficient, since I'm 15?
I was indeed generalizing and throwing the myriad of "attacks" that have been leveled against "my kind" into one giant pot. In no way was that meant to imply that everyone who "discusses" with me exhibits the same behaviors across the board.

The interesting thing is that when "we" are told that we are now "too old" to appreciate the new films through the eyes of a child, what does that say about that person's opinion of children? That they're mentally deficient? I've often wondered about that one. :confused:



I knew you were a Sith lord! :D ;)
Well, I'm not a Lord yet. Maybe one day... :yes:



Obviously it's open to interpretation, as that's what George did.
Well, see my "explanation" regarding that above. Which begs the question: Why did he change the established continuity and invite the necessity of interpretation into something that was so clearly fine the way it was? Why introduce Qui Gon Jinn as Obi Wan's teacher instead of just having Yoda do it? Did George need someone to die that badly? Was Qui Gon just merely lightsaber fodder? Was George too lazy to come up with ways to hide the mysteries and preserve the drama of the OT? All valid questions with no true answers unless we get George on the phone. In the meantime, y'all can continue to "interpret" to your heart's content. I'm sure that George appreciates the effort. :thumbsup: :love:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-12-2005, 06:08 PM
In the meantime, y'all can continue to "interpret" to your heart's content.
And we know you'll be right there, telling us we're wrong! :D

I don't know why George did what he did . . . but he did it, and there's no changing it. (By any of us, anyway.)


So, what that means is that even though George decided to alter the established continuity of the OT by giving Obi Wan an alternate teacher, it remains a "wrong" element relative to the established continuity that he himself approved originally.
You say it's wrong, I say it's right. You're not going to change your position and I'm not either, so I guess all we can really do is agree to disagree. :)

2-1B
09-12-2005, 07:43 PM
That IS funny! :) I hadn't ever thought of it that way. Some food for thought.

(You've got me smiling!)

But there is a, ahem...fundamental difference between taking the Bible literally and not giving an inch when it comes to fiction, and I am sure that you of all people recognize that.

Yeah, I do recognize it. :D Couldn't help myself, though. lol lol lol

stillakid
09-12-2005, 08:23 PM
And we know you'll be right there, telling us we're wrong! :D
Maybe. :)


I don't know why George did what he did . . . but he did it, and there's no changing it. (By any of us, anyway.)


You say it's wrong, I say it's right. You're not going to change your position and I'm not either, so I guess all we can really do is agree to disagree. :)
True, but on what grounds do you say "it's right?" I've given you my proof that the OT is contradicted by the PT. I have yet to see proof that it doesn't.

Elliejabbapop
09-13-2005, 11:54 AM
So stilla, still giving useless trouble as usual eh? How surprising :rolleyes:

With the prequels my perception changed completely, everything I had imagined changed, my whole conception about the history of the Skywalker family and especially my attitude towards Darth Vader. At first when I saw the mask my general thought was "mystery" (or, in the case of ROTJ, "sadness"), whereas now I think "tragedy", and all the sensations are emotionally more complex and uncomfortable, mostly caused by the unfairness of his fate, which is not necessarily bad when you're watching a movie.
As for the Skywalker family in general, I had never really thought about who the mother could be, she was even more mysterious, a shadow that was there everytime I thought about the twins' childhood or their birthplace, the only time I really thought about her was when an EU author mentioned her with a completely different name (I know it begins with N...).
I'm glad GL did the PT because now I can treasure two visions: mine and his.
I think not knowing GL's take on his own story would have been a damn shame.

Rogue II
09-13-2005, 12:45 PM
I'm glad GL did the PT because now I can treasure two visions: mine and his.
I think not knowing GL's take on his own story would have been a damn shame.

I guess part of my problem with the PT is that I don't think this is the story Lucas had in mind back when he wrote to OT. In the many years between the OT and PT, I think he got away from his original story outline and make a movie that he thought the kids and fans would want.

Exhibit "A" of this argument has to be Jar Jar Binks. Where was he going with the Jar Jar character? He attempted to provide a little comic relief (which fell upon C-3PO's character in ATOC). But after the outcry of hatred towards him after TPM, Lucas all but wrote him out of the last 2 films. You figure he would have learned from using the Ewoks instead of Wookies in ROTJ. Then again, I still don't believe he initially had Luke and Leia as twins when he first wrote ANH.

We've know about Vader falling into lava after a duel with Obi-Wan forever, but what about the rest of the things that came out over the years? I just feel we were led to believe we were going to get one story in the PT, and we got something a bit different because Lucas changed his original story.

trandoshan666
09-13-2005, 01:24 PM
… Because the OT films are the established baseline of continuity, anything that follows them has the requirement to remain consistent EVEN IF the author makes the conscious choice to disregard said continuity. While such an author certainly has every right to do so, it does not make the subsequent new continuity the correct one, even if rationalization is employed to "bridge the gap" as it were. Unless alterations are made to the original continuity in order to account for the differences between it and the new ideas, the original continuity remains as the benchmark that all future storylines be judged.

So, what that means is that even though George decided to alter the established continuity of the OT by giving Obi Wan an alternate teacher, it remains a "wrong" element relative to the established continuity that he himself approved originally. …
It's funny, but I really can't remember much about my expectations of how the prequels would play out. But I can say that I went into TPM believing that I would see Yoda as Obi Wan's master. I also remember being bothered following my initial viewing by the introduction of Qui-Gon as Ben's master. But after immediately watching ESB again and thinking about it, I realized that Yoda was the only master available to teach Luke at the time Obi Wan uttered the line that has been so heavily scrutinized in these forums. To me — and apparently to the saga's creator — that fact, established in the OT, left room for another master to be established.

Even if Qui Gon had always been part of the story, I think Obi Wan would have made Luke aware of Yoda's existence precisely as he did — as the Jedi master who instructed him. Obi Wan, as we saw him in the OT, made a habit of not telling Luke the whole story, so why should we as viewers take literally a brief statement he made to Luke as he steered the boy toward Jedi training? On this subject, I just don't see that Lucas disregarded the saga's continuity, and rationalizations certainly aren't needed.

stillakid
09-13-2005, 02:57 PM
It's funny, but I really can't remember much about my expectations of how the prequels would play out. But I can say that I went into TPM believing that I would see Yoda as Obi Wan's master. I also remember being bothered following my initial viewing by the introduction of Qui-Gon as Ben's master. But after immediately watching ESB again and thinking about it, I realized that Yoda was the only master available to teach Luke at the time Obi Wan uttered the line that has been so heavily scrutinized in these forums. To me — and apparently to the saga's creator — that fact, established in the OT, left room for another master to be established.

Even if Qui Gon had always been part of the story, I think Obi Wan would have made Luke aware of Yoda's existence precisely as he did — as the Jedi master who instructed him. Obi Wan, as we saw him in the OT, made a habit of not telling Luke the whole story, so why should we as viewers take literally a brief statement he made to Luke as he steered the boy toward Jedi training? On this subject, I just don't see that Lucas disregarded the saga's continuity, and rationalizations certainly aren't needed.

I see what you're getting at and only if the argument hinged upon that one line of dialogue. But it doesn't. The issue becomes slightly more complex by talking about the rest which is why I was trying to keep the discussion simplier with that particular example. But one of the other telling moments is that Yoda describes Luke as being reckless. Spirit Ben replies, "So was I, if you'll remember." This implies that Obi Wan was Luke's age when Yoda would remember him being restless. Therefore Yoda was not merely Obi Wan's kindergarten teacher, but his teacher when he was old enough to be described as "restless."

stillakid
09-13-2005, 03:00 PM
I guess part of my problem with the PT is that I don't think this is the story Lucas had in mind back when he wrote to OT. In the many years between the OT and PT, I think he got away from his original story outline and make a movie that he thought the kids and fans would want.

Exhibit "A" of this argument has to be Jar Jar Binks. Where was he going with the Jar Jar character? He attempted to provide a little comic relief (which fell upon C-3PO's character in ATOC). But after the outcry of hatred towards him after TPM, Lucas all but wrote him out of the last 2 films. You figure he would have learned from using the Ewoks instead of Wookies in ROTJ. Then again, I still don't believe he initially had Luke and Leia as twins when he first wrote ANH.

We've know about Vader falling into lava after a duel with Obi-Wan forever, but what about the rest of the things that came out over the years? I just feel we were led to believe we were going to get one story in the PT, and we got something a bit different because Lucas changed his original story.

Roger that. :thumbsup:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-13-2005, 05:22 PM
Stilla, I've provided many examples of why I think it's right, but you disagree with all of them.

Rocketboy
09-13-2005, 06:04 PM
You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

nuff said.

El Chuxter
09-13-2005, 06:36 PM
Apparently, I thought things went down quite a bit differently from how the rest of you saw it:

For many, many years, the Jedi Knights spent their time dancing and singing, for they were a happy bunch. Nothing ever went wrong in the galaxy, and there was plenty of frozen yogurt to go around. Jedi loved frozen yogurt, especially chocolate-vanilla swirl. They couldn't get enough of it.

There was no evil in the universe, for it had not been invented yet. Whenever people didn't get along, they fought a "Clone War," in which Jedi dressed up in outlandish papier mache costumes representing the people who were arguing, and they fought with foam baseball bats, because they wouldn't want anyone to get hurt. When a Jedi cried uncle, the party he or she represented lost the Clone War and had to submit to the will of the other party. (Of course, everyone was nice, so it was never anything bad.)

An especially happy-go-lucky Jedi named Obi-Wan Kenobi was touring with a doo wop group called the Four Ewoks when he met a roadie and astro-bus driver named Anakin Skywalker. As they chugged a few beers one evening after a performance, Obi-Wan noticed that Anakin had the sacred birthmark of the flatulent Gungan on his back, a sign that he had Jedi powers. Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin, since the head Jedi trainer, Yoda, was on vacation that week.

After Anakin had been training for two days, having unknowingly knocked up a groupie named Padme after a drunken spree on the night he met Obi-Wan, a senator named Wailliam Antilles Organa Antilles Org--ah, let's just call him Bail. Anyway, Bail approached them and asked them to engage in a Clone War to settle a dispute between himself and another senator, Palpatine.

It seems that an especially hungry gangster named Jabba had developed quite the taste for frozen yogurt. He had amassed all the yogurt in his sector of space and ate it at such an alarming rate that he had tripled in weight in merely a week, despite it being low-fat yogurt! The neighboring planets couldn't produce frozen yogurt fast enough to fill his appetite, and this was the basis of the argument between Bail and Palpatine. Palpatine loved frozen yogurt almost as much as Jabba, but Bail wanted some to give to his dying mother on what would no doubt be her final Mother's Day.

And so Obi-Wan and Anakin donned their costumes, wielded their bats, and engaged in mock combat while a local garage band blasted a crappy cover of "Rock You Like a Hurricane." Being new to the ways of the Jedi, Anakin fell in combat, and Bail was dubbed the winner of this Clone War. Bail asked for merely enough frozen yogurt to give his mother a small cone.

Palpatine, however, had grown up on the mean streets of Detroit and refused to give in to Bail's demands. And it turned out that the Jedi didn't really have much power to make him hand over the frozen yogurt.

Across the galaxy, beings watched the news and trembled in shock and fear. The result of a Clone War was law. No one had ever questioned obeying the outcome. What would come of the galactic order when the very foundation of their civilization was being questioned.

Palpatine called up his old college roommate, Jango Fett, to ask for his help. But Jango was too old, and sent his son, Boba. Boba and Palpatine began to criss-cross the galaxy, mercilessly beating to death with various blunt objects any Jedi unfortunate enough to come across their paths.

Obi-Wan sent out the word to his fellow Jedi: they must use their lightsabers, previously restricted to assisting stranded motorists who had locked their keys in their vehicles, for self-defense. He also sent his former apprentice, Anakin, to arrest Palpatine.

Anakin confronted Palpatine in his quarters on the Lava World. (Hey, how was I suppose to come up with the name "Mustafar"?) Palpatine revealed that he had chosen Anakin to represent him in the Clone War, knowing that Obi-Wan would cheat. And then Palpatine and Boba began to taunt Anakin, calling him a goody two-shoes. Anakin really didn't like that, and gave in to the Dark Side of the Force from the peer pressure. (Oddly, this was the first time "the Force" was mentioned.)

When Palpatine hired a bunch of out-of-work contractors called the Stormtroopers to be his bodyguards and instituted Order 65 (I was only one number off!), Obi-Wan knew that he must stop Anakin. He journeyed to the Lava Planet to face him, and the two talked for quite a while. Among other things, Anakin said to Obi-Wan, "Man, if I ever have a son, I'd want him to have my lightsaber." However, on a treacherous catwalk, Obi-Wan noticed that Anakin's shoelace was untied. Feeling this could be a danger to his good friend, he warned Anakin. Anakin, however, lost his balance and fell into a pit of molten magma.

Boba Fett pulled Anakin out of the lava, severely burning his skin and forcing him to wear a suit of mysterious armor. Together with Palpatine, he created a suit of armor for Anakin as well, which replaced his burnt parts. Anakin was really, really p***ed off, so he helped Palpatine declare himself Emperor. (There were only two senators, so it wasn't too tough.)

Obi-Wan fled to Tatooine, where he found that Padme had given birth and put her twins up for adoption. A couple of farmers wanted to take the boy, but didn't think the girl would be much use mowing their lawn later on. Obi-Wan called up his former commander in the fateful Clone War to adopt the daughter.

About this time, Yoda got back from vacation. He had no idea what was going on, so (being a doddering old elf creature thing) he went to his house on Dagobah and locked the door, peeking out only to yell at the paperboy every so often.

And eighteen years passed, and the events of the OT took place.

Also, Jar Jar died. I had no idea who or what a "Jar Jar" was, but I knew more than anything else that he would die.

I realize that's not how it went down, which is a shame.

Markimus
09-13-2005, 06:40 PM
So stilla, still giving useless trouble as usual eh? How surprising :rolleyes: .
useless is spot on... I see you know his M.O. :cross-eye



With the prequels my perception changed completely, everything I had imagined changed, my whole conception about the history of the Skywalker family and especially my attitude towards Darth Vader. At first when I saw the mask my general thought was "mystery" (or, in the case of ROTJ, "sadness"), whereas now I think "tragedy", and all the sensations are emotionally more complex and uncomfortable, mostly caused by the unfairness of his fate, which is not necessarily bad when you're watching a movie.
.

Bingo ! That's what Lucas created, the Tragedy of Vader.. very effectively in my opinion. The whole arc of the series 1-6 now shows the rise, manipulation, fall , and redemption of Vader in a classic Greek tragedy sort of way.



I'm glad GL did the PT because now I can treasure two visions: mine and his.
I think not knowing GL's take on his own story would have been a damn shame.
I agree - for me Lucas' vision of Star Wars has always been far more appealing to me than anything the extended Universe writers how come up with (although I'm happy Lucas allows them to give us more stories). Which makes sense since it is HIS creation ! It would have been a shame if he'd left the story of Vader's origin and the birth of the Empire to someone else.

Markimus
09-13-2005, 07:00 PM
I guess part of my problem with the PT is that I don't think this is the story Lucas had in mind back when he wrote to OT. In the many years between the OT and PT, I think he got away from his original story outline and make a movie that he thought the kids and fans would want.
.

There's no doubt he made the PT for the fans especially after he saw the interest that the re-release Special Edition movies received.. but making movies for the fans is not a bad thing ! He didn't need the money.

I've seen Lucas state in interviews that 60% of the origional outline he wrote back in the 70's appears in ROTS. I do believe starting Anakin as a child was always his plan , even though he and producer Rick McCallum knew fans would kill him for doing this. I agree that I doubt Jar Jar was part of his origional outline and was added for some comic relief (taking the place of R2D2 and C3PO's humor, since they were not together in Ep 1)

I don't think he strayed from his origional concept much .. otherwise he would have been talked out of starting with Anakin as a kid (which McCallum says he tried to do). Lucas had no outside influences, because he owns everything Star Wars - and was able to tell the story he always wanted to.

In more retrospection...from my fan days in the 70s -early 80s.
I'd always heard that Boba Fett's mandalorian armor was going to be seen again fighting as soldiers in the clone wars in the prequel... and in a sense that did happen. The clones are based on Jango's armor and they are clones of him ! So another area Lucas stuck to his plan.:razz:

Lord Malakite
09-13-2005, 07:48 PM
Not to get too off topic guys but try to stay focused on the main topic at hand instead of making personal comments about people's M.O.s and so forth.

stillakid
09-13-2005, 09:42 PM
useless is spot on... I see you know his M.O. :cross-eye
.

My M.O.? To correct ignorance wherever it rears it's head.


In other news, I couldn't help but notice that you managed to gloss over every point that I have proven you wrong about. Coincidence or just avoidance? You be the judge. M.O. PUhlease. :rolleyes: And some people 'round these parts only want to see my comments as "useless" because they can't handle being proven incorrect. Truth has a way of turning people off sometimes. I can't help that. I'm just one messenger among many. :love:

Elliejabbapop
09-14-2005, 03:01 AM
I guess part of my problem with the PT is that I don't think this is the story Lucas had in mind back when he wrote to OT. In the many years between the OT and PT, I think he got away from his original story outline and make a movie that he thought the kids and fans would want.

We don't know that, we can only guess. I embrace your opinion but personally I think he already had the general (I said general) lines of the story in mind back when he decided to start from the middle.


You figure he would have learned from using the Ewoks instead of Wookies in ROTJ.
But they are so cute!!! :love:


Then again, I still don't believe he initially had Luke and Leia as twins when he first wrote ANH.

They were certainly brother and sister, I know that for sure, but think of this.... making them twins made it easier to seal their mother's fate, so maybe he had that in mind from the start. Mind you, I'm part of the group who believes the woman Leia remembers is the queen of Alderaan :) .


We've know about Vader falling into lava after a duel with Obi-Wan forever, but what about the rest of the things that came out over the years? I just feel we were led to believe we were going to get one story in the PT, and we got something a bit different because Lucas changed his original story.

Personally I never felt like I was being "betrayed". I remember thinking Vader had been disfigured by the emperor himself, a silly theory but one I firmly believed as a kid, and that Yoda was Obi's master from the start, but that's about as far as my "particular" expectations got.

Markimus - Tell me about it :)
BTW stilla you've never proven me incorrect with valuable arguments

jedi master sal
09-14-2005, 07:16 AM
Okay gents, we don't need to flame each other here.

I've read enough on this thread and had two complaints about the flaming so it's now closed.