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seanmcfripp
09-23-2005, 08:28 PM
Lots of good discussion as of late in some other threads that seem to be asking this question: Are Vader and Anakin the same person? So let's have at it, shall we? I'm guessing there are three lines of thinking here:

- They are separate entities.
- They are the same entity.
- They are a little of both.

That third one doesn't make much sense to me, but I anticipate that someone will straddle the fence anyway and take that position, so I may as well knock it out now.

I have to go with "the same entity" point of view. Who you were is always going to be a part of who you are, just as who you could be is a part of who you are right now. Prior to the suit/mask visage, I'm of the opinion that Vader is always just under the surface of the troubled Anakin we see in ATOC and ROTS, very much the same way the "good man who was your father" is right below the surface of the Vader we see in the OT. I don't necessarily agree with how the portrayal of the Anakin character was executed, but I kinda get the gist of what they were going for (just barely sometimes).

This discussion will probably lead back to some of the items brought up in other threads, but I think for the sake of efficiency, it's best that we hash everything out here.

Let's get it on!

2-1B
09-24-2005, 02:05 AM
I agree, one and the same. :)

Luke sums it up best for me, "I have accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker . . . the name of your true self you've only forgotten."

Ben and Yoda were wrong.

DARKLORD_67
09-24-2005, 02:42 AM
Anakin and Darth are one and the same.

Yoda knew this, and (contrary to popular belief) so did Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I think the ultimate point about Anakin (and I seem to be alone on this one), is that he was NEVER really an "evil bastard". In my view, this was a misguided kid who lost his way. He didn't understand the natural order of things (that everything eventually changes), and he had great emotional difficulty letting go of things that he cared deeply about.

When confronted with the brutal loss of his mother at the hands of the tusken raiders, and when confronted with the very IDEA of losing his beloved Padme, he plainly and simply... snapped.

If we look at a LOT of the horrible stuff going on in the world today, I think we can see ample examples of how even good people can be driven to do horrible things.

Look, I live in New York City, and just as much as anyone, I was horrified and traumatized by what happened in my city on Sept 11th, 2001. I will NEVER defend, nor justify the obscene actions of the terrorists that caused this nation so much pain.

However, I cannot help thinking that there was a lot of RAGE behind those acts on that day. I cannot help wondering what horrible thing it was that even ONE of these men saw in their own lives that justified this atrocity in their own minds. Did just ONE of these men lose a wife or parent to an American smart-bomb? Did just ONE of these men ever have to bury the charred remains of their small child after an American "shock and awe" operation upon their city?

If the answer to these questions is "yes", then just imagine the RAGE that consumed their hearts right up until the moment that they took their own lives on that hellish day.

Imagine the rage in YOUR own heart if YOU found YOUR mother bloodied, battered, tortured, and barely alive, and had her die in YOUR arms.

No, I'm afraid that Anakin's rage, while totally understandable, simply got the better of him and consumed his reasoning and better judgement.:cry:

2-1B
09-24-2005, 03:12 AM
How did Yoda know that ?

Why did he tell Obi-Wan "the boy you trained, gone he is" ? and why did he tell Luke that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" ? :)

DARKLORD_67
09-24-2005, 11:30 AM
How did Yoda know that ?

LUKE: Master Yoda. Is Darth Vader my father?

YODA: Rest, I need. Yes... Rest...

LUKE: Yoda, I must know.

YODA: (SIGHS) Your father he is.


Since Luke's question was NOT "Is Anakin Skywalker my father?", I have to believe that, ultimately, Yoda saw, recognized, and believed the PHYSICAL truth that Anakin and Darth were one and the same... that Darth Vader was nothing more than an angry manifestation... a vile "piece", if you will, of Anakin Skywalker himself.




Why did he tell Obi-Wan "the boy you trained, gone he is" ? and why did he tell Luke that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" ? :)

Once again, "interpretation" plays a role here. I believe Yoda was speaking philosophically. Him saying that the boy Obi-Wan trained was "gone" is virtually the same as Obi-Wan Kenobi's ghost telling Luke that the "... good man..." who was his father was "... destroyed...".

Even after witnessing Anakin's carnage at the Jedi temple, it was Obi-Wan Kenobi's inclination to think of him as "like my brother" (in other words, as "Anakin"). It was Yoda who "corrected" him, urging him to think spiritually.

I think that Obi-Wan and Yoda BOTH knew that we ALL have the capacity for "good" (compassion, decency, loyalty, love), and "evil" (selfishness, rage, fear, and hatred). We can see this in ALL STAR WARS characters. Heck, even Palpatine, showed the smallest glimmer of compassion when he found Anakin near death on Mustafar, and came down to that embankment just to place a gentle hand on his forehead.

But, I think, philosophically speaking, that Obi-Wan and Yoda decided (as did Palpatine) that Anakin Skywalker turned his back on the portion of HIMSELF that was capable of "good". The horror that was left over was "philosophically" and "spiritually" given a new name... Darth Vader.

Their REASONS for doing this vaired. Palpatine's reason for recognizing Darth Vader differently than Anakin Skywalker was a matter of SITH TRADITION. Yoda and Obi-Wan's reasons were borne more out of pain. It was just too painful for them both to call that murdering monster of rage "Anakin".

But in the end, they ALL recognized that this was still just one individual.

Devo
09-24-2005, 03:39 PM
Lots of good discussion as of late in some other threads that seem to be asking this question: Are Vader and Anakin the same person? So let's have at it, shall we? I'm guessing there are three lines of thinking here:

- They are separate entities.
- They are the same entity.
- They are a little of both.

I think there has been a 4th line of thinking from boardmembers who are particularly harsh on the prequels - this being 'out of universe', that the Anakin of the prequels and the Vader of the OT cannot be considered the same in any sense of the word by virtue of how (as is perceived) poorly written the former is. Its an argument which I dip in and out of. I do try to believe that Jake Lloyd is Darth Vader and that Vader has an opinion on sand but its verrrrrryyyyy difficult.

Kidhuman
09-24-2005, 06:05 PM
They are one in the same. The missing thing is that Anakin was born under the Gemini. He is twins and is psycho.

JediTricks
09-24-2005, 10:33 PM
Not once during the Prequels did I ever feel of Anakin as "Vader" or "future Vader", reflecting now I just realized that the Prequels never made me feel like Ani was a real "Skywalker", he was this Prequel Anakin character, a total abstract from the original Star Wars, he didn't fit the description of Anakin Skywalker that I heard, nor the visage of Anakin Skywalker at the end of ROTJ. So in a sense, to me there are 3 characters here, Anakin Skywalker who we meet mainly through lore and finally deed and general aurra at the end of ROTJ, Darth Vader who is the heartless villain of the OT, and Prequel Anakin who is an unrelated guy.

stillakid
09-25-2005, 12:11 AM
Not once during the Prequels did I ever feel of Anakin as "Vader" or "future Vader", reflecting now I just realized that the Prequels never made me feel like Ani was a real "Skywalker", he was this Prequel Anakin character, a total abstract from the original Star Wars, he didn't fit the description of Anakin Skywalker that I heard, nor the visage of Anakin Skywalker at the end of ROTJ. So in a sense, to me there are 3 characters here, Anakin Skywalker who we meet mainly through lore and finally deed and general aurra at the end of ROTJ, Darth Vader who is the heartless villain of the OT, and Prequel Anakin who is an unrelated guy.


I'd add a fourth character, who would be the version of "Vader" at the very close of ROTS. Neither the OT Vader NOR Prequel Anakin would ever yell "Noooooooooooooooooooo!" Never in a million parsecs. I have no clue where that masked man came from. :bandit:

JediTricks
09-25-2005, 02:07 PM
"NOOOOO!" does feel really off, I think just a primal rage scream "rraaaagggh" would have been more appropriate, like an elongated version of the ones in ESB during the Bespin battle or perhaps a more angry version of the one when Luke takes his hand in ROTJ. Because ROTS in-suit Vader doesn't really do anything, I don't think of him as an actual entity, he's more like that Boba Fett cameo in ANH - I never think of Fett in that film.

seanmcfripp
09-29-2005, 09:42 AM
I get the feeling that we all agree that Anakin and Vader should have been the same character, but we ended up with something disjointed and bizarre in the PT. With that in mind, can we all agree that PT Anakin should have been written and portrayed in a manner that is consistent with Vader/Anakin from the OT?


Oh, and the masked man? :bandit:

I think I know who he is. :)

stillakid
09-29-2005, 08:59 PM
I get the feeling that we all agree that Anakin and Vader should have been the same character,

...um, yeah. We all should agree on that but for some reason, there still exists a population that doesn't see it that way. Don't ask me why. I still haven't figured it out either. :ermm:

seanmcfripp
09-30-2005, 08:53 AM
We all should agree on that but for some reason, there still exists a population that doesn't see it that way.

Hmmm...said population seems to be bit quiet as of late. Since no one speaks up, then I guess we really do all agree.

JimJamBonds
09-30-2005, 11:33 AM
I agree that Anakin and Vader should be the same.... and I think that they are.

2-1B
09-30-2005, 11:52 AM
I think they're the same but I don't agree that what we got is "bizarre" and/or "disjointed."

Of the small handful of folks who posted in this thread, I believe everyone posted that they are "the same" with the exception of a malcontented JT, who does not see them as the same person.

:)

stillakid
10-04-2005, 11:05 AM
I think they're the same but I don't agree that what we got is "bizarre" and/or "disjointed."

Of the small handful of folks who posted in this thread, I believe everyone posted that they are "the same" with the exception of a malcontented JT, who does not see them as the same person.

:)

What am I, chopped liver? :hurt:


Don't answer that. ;)

seanmcfripp
10-07-2005, 08:22 AM
Hey Ceasar, nice to see Nigel's back in town! Of course, as long as you keep that avatar, every time you post, I going to hear this in the back of my mind:


We don't literally say it...
We don't really, actually mean it...
But that message should be clear.

Elliejabbapop
10-08-2005, 07:00 AM
Oh boys, quoting Jane Austen, "you may be assured that men know nothing of their hearts". Before anyone is literally inflated and explodes, have the courtesy to read: I don't believe Anakin and Vader are the same, for the simplest reason in the world. How in hell on earth can you believe that a man is the same in all the stages of his existence? I'm not saying Anakin and Vader are totally different people (even though it sometimes happens, but it's a minority), there is a continuity in the mind of a person but it never even gets close to 50% when you sum up all the stages in his life. If we all persued our original ideas human beings would be well defined, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't happen. Based on the evidence, there are only two ways of explaining this: 1) Jane Austen was right; 2) You're all kids and therefore have not yet managed to ponder the differences in the course of life of a human being.
You tell me.

stillakid
10-08-2005, 03:09 PM
Oh boys, quoting Jane Austen, "you may be assured that men know nothing of their hearts". Before anyone is literally inflated and explodes, have the courtesy to read: I don't believe Anakin and Vader are the same, for the simplest reason in the world. How in hell on earth can you believe that a man is the same in all the stages of his existence? I'm not saying Anakin and Vader are totally different people (even though it sometimes happens, but it's a minority), there is a continuity in the mind of a person but it never even gets close to 50% when you sum up all the stages in his life. If we all persued our original ideas human beings would be well defined, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't happen. Based on the evidence, there are only two ways of explaining this: 1) Jane Austen was right; 2) You're all kids and therefore have not yet managed to ponder the differences in the course of life of a human being.
You tell me.

Cute, except you forgot #3: That we are aware of what the movie actually shows and have come to the proper conclusion. It is possible that "we" are...how would you put it...emotionally mature(?) andjust because we don't agree to pander to Lucas's weak storytelling and fill in the blanks for him, doesn't mean we are "kids." That's pretty f'ing presumptious of you.

On a personal level, I am significantly different now than from even 15 years ago...however, fundamentally, I am very much the same. While the lens through which I view life has altered a bit do to life experience and such, my basic nature is essentially the same.

Given that this is most likely the way most people are, when we look at the fictional character of Anakin Skywalker and his "journey" from squeaky clean Jake-akin, to bipolar entitled Hayd-akin, through to the Darth Vader of the OT, there is a fundamental disconnect from one incarnation to the other that is ridiculously unexplained by anything onscreen. So despite your desire to discredit the argument by making personal attacks against those that disagree with you, simple literary comprehension skills clearly outline the inherent problems with the way the character was erroneously drawn across the entire saga.

Elliejabbapop
10-09-2005, 06:29 AM
On a personal level, I am significantly different now than from even 15 years ago...however, fundamentally, I am very much the same. While the lens through which I view life has altered a bit do to life experience and such, my basic nature is essentially the same.

Why don't people read?


his "journey" from squeaky clean Jake-akin

Was anyone here a murderer as a 9 year old? :rolleyes:


to bipolar entitled Hayd-akin

That is no fact, that's just your opinion.


So despite your desire to discredit the argument by making personal attacks against those that disagree with you

Honey, I know the truth hurts and you don't know what to say to prove me wrong so that you have to accuse me of a behaviour that is yours, but you'll have to prove I made a personal attack. Against whom? Every human being in the world? Please.... :rolleyes:

stillakid
10-09-2005, 10:03 AM
Why don't people read?
What on earth are you talking about?




Was anyone here a murderer as a 9 year old? :rolleyes:
Again, what are you talking about?




That is no fact, that's just your opinion.
It's an observation based on watching what's on screen.




Honey, I know the truth hurts and you don't know what to say to prove me wrong so that you have to accuse me of a behaviour that is yours, but you'll have to prove I made a personal attack. Against whom? Every human being in the world? Please.... :rolleyes:
Honey, I've "proven" you wrong without resorting to a personal attack, unlike your own method. For some reason, you feel as if you have some kind of inside information about human character development that the rest of us aren't privy to just because you're a chick. Maybe the guy you "rescued" is an emotional buffoon, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are. I base my critiques about the films on the films themselves instead of overlaying my own desires on top of it. I realize that that truth hurts you and you can't comprehend viewing life in objective terms like that, so I'll cut you some slack on this. Don't say I never did anything for you...Honey. :love:

seanmcfripp
10-10-2005, 12:32 PM
Before anyone is literally inflated and explodes...

Hmmm...I think another alarm is going off. Please familiarize yourself with proper usage of the word "literally". It's bad enough we have to wade through the trite snippiness that usually prevades your posts.


...have the courtesy to read: I don't believe Anakin and Vader are the same, for the simplest reason in the world. How in hell on earth can you believe that a man is the same in all the stages of his existence?

Because my mommy says so! Move over Dr. Phil, you blow-hard quack-a-loon, and make room for Dr. Mom. Diagnosis:

Sean is dealing with the same insecurities now at at 28 that he had at age 5.

Perhaps it's a bit of an oversimplification, but it's practical for our purposes. Ask any mother out there to describe her child's fundamental, basic nature at the different planes of development, and see what kind of answers you get. My mother will tell you that I haven't changed one bit, and if I'm being honest with myself, and I can't disagree with her at all. At the core, I'm still a very shy and sensitive introvert with highly rigid sense of order. In terms of type logic, I'm an INTJ right down the line. No matter what I do, or whatever happens to me over the course of my life, that natural tendency will not change.

What changes, as I gain experience, is the way in which I react to my natural tendancy. As a young boy, I took name calling and teasing a little harder than most kids my age, as it was very difficult for me to comprehend meaness for the sake of being mean. I was a smart, atheletic, nice looking kid (still am, if I do say so myself...*shines knuckles on shirt*), so I was rarely, if ever a target of the brute mobs, but it always killed me to see it happen to other kids. My parents (and anyone else who knew me at that age) to this day will tell you that I was an unusually sensitive little boy. Fast forward a bit and talk to someone who knows me now and only knows me as an adult, and they would tell you that I'm an insufferable smart-*** who's "too good" to associate with anyone. Somewhere along the line in my brain, it made sense to develop a sharp wit and a quick toungue...better to brow beat an idiot before he can rally the masses to his cause. To avoid the pain of being ridiculed, I could preemtively ward off anyone looking to gain something at my expense by deconstructing them first. It's a fantastic defense: a select few are allowed within the castle walls, and everyone else gets boiling oil. The funny thing of it is though, if I tried to do that with my mother, there's not a chance in hell it would work, because she knows better. She can walk right up to the fortress wall and march right through the gate unscathed, because she knows there's just an overly sensitive little boy hiding in the middle of it all.

*just when you thought this thing was rambling, here comes the long-winded part (hang with me if you're still reading Ceasar!;) )*

If you can't get ahold of any moms out there, try talking to someone's spouse. Talk to my wife if you want, she'll set you straight. She's so disarmingly friendly and open that she cuts right through my "defenses". She's one of the few who gets to know "the little boy". Not like that's a priviledge or anything (I'm just as a big a knucklehead as anyone else), but you get the idea.

I see a lot of "the little boy" in my daughter. We have 19 mos old fraternal twin girls, and somehow, we ended up with little clones of ourselves. Quinn is just like her mother, and Harper is just like me. My wife has years of training and work experience in Montessori pedagogy (those student loan bills from Loyola are murder), so our parenting techniques tend to be a bit scientific at times. In other words, we are very aware of the nature vs. nurture dichotomy when it comes to our children. We have the rare opportunity to witness two girls at the exact same stages of development, yet their personalities are so different. Are their behaviors inate, or are we reinforcing what we percieve to be certain personality traits? It's tough to say for certain, but the more I talk to other parents and educators, the more I'm convinced that nature deals the first hand. My little Harper, for better or worse, is destined to be shy and apprehensive. I see the look on her face when she's in a situation that makes her uncomfortable, and I know exactly what she's thinking. My parents see it, my wife sees it, my brother and sisters see it...really anyone who is close to me can see that there is something going on with Harper that is eerily familiar, and yet strangely out of our control. I am often told that I have been given a wonderful gift, in that I am able to see so much of myself at such a young age. The difference between us obviously is that her life will be shaped by her own unique experiences. We were given a similar set of tools to work with at the genetic level, but she will build a much different house...or perhaps it will be similar. That's the beauty of the whole process. It's the exact same situation with my wife and Quinn. My wife walks into a room, and everyone wants to know her. People like being around her because they like the way she makes them feel about themselves. Believe it or not, my daughter can do the same thing. Quinn has an amazing aura of positivity around her. She commands attention without having to grab at it.

So, to bring this thing around to the original point...
*pant, pant*

Are you going to tell me that the little girls I know and love right now aren't going to be the same people at age 40? Do I have to introduce them as different people in another 40 years?

"Hi, I'd like you to meet my daughter, Harper, age 40. I used to have another daughter named Harper, but I lost track of her when she turned 4. I actually had another daughter named Harper too, but she disappeared at age 16."

Do we become a different person after each plane of development? If so, how different are we, and where do you draw the lines of demarcation? The answers are: we don't, we aren't, and you can't. Welcome to H-E-double hockey stick on earth, where I'm right, and you're wrong! :twisted:

Ya' see, the thing that really gets me about the position you're taking is that you're throwing all of the wonderul complexities of character development out the window by saying "Oh, well Ani was a good little boy, and then some bad stuff happened to him, and then he became a bad murderer, but sometimes that just happens because we aren't the same people later life that we were when we were kids." Is it really that simple? Nice kid grows up, knocks up his childhood crush, then turns into a murderer? I don't buy it, unless of course Ani has some kind of metal impairment, which is the only (and much debated) conclusion I can come to. Lucas gave us point A (golden child) and point Z (Hitler), with maybe a hazy letter there in the middle, then connected the two dots at warp speed. What happened to points B through Y? That shoulda been the good stuff, but Lucas was either too lazy, or more likely, too unable to render it properly. So now we're stuck with point A to point Z at break-neck speed with no explanation of the middle meaty part. George is a dad, so I'm surprised he doesn't look at the Ani/Vader arc and go "Huh?" like the rest of us.


Was anyone here a murderer as a 9 year old? :rolleyes:

As Stilla said before, what on earth (or hell on earth) are you talking about? I think most of us are fortunate enough not to have encountered any murderous nine year olds, but I can assure you that most murderers were nine years old at one point, which I think is quite relevant to what we're talking about here.


I'm not saying Anakin and Vader are totally different people (even though it sometimes happens, but it's a minority), there is a continuity in the mind of a person but it never even gets close to 50% when you sum up all the stages in his life.

You're losing me on the math...50% of what? How can continuity not be 100%? If something isn't 100%, then I can assure you, it's anything but continuous. 50% continuity is like a partial stop. I'll assume you still have the dictionary out from looking up "literally", so go ahead, thumb through and have a gander at "continuity".


If we all persued our original ideas human beings would be well defined, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't happen.

So you define a person by their pursuit of ideas? What does that mean? Frankly, I don't think it means anything, but go ahead and try to explain it.


Based on the evidence, there are only two ways of explaining this: 1) Jane Austen was right

Well, I ain't familiar-like with no Jane Austen 'n such, but I can give ya's a quote from my personal hero, Stone Cold Steve Austen (or Austin rather):

"You better just shut the hell up cause you are ****ing me off!"

My brother in law turned me on to wrestling in my college days (WWF and One Life to Live were my two vices). It's a crude quote, but oddly appropriate.

It's funny how most fans of Sense and Sensibility (at least the ones I've met) have little of either or both.



2) You're all kids and therefore have not yet managed to ponder the differences in the course of life of a human being. You tell me.

I can't say it any better than this:


Cute, except you forgot #3: That we are aware of what the movie actually shows and have come to the proper conclusion. It is possible that "we" are...how would you put it...emotionally mature(?) andjust because we don't agree to pander to Lucas's weak storytelling and fill in the blanks for him, doesn't mean we are "kids." That's pretty f'ing presumptious of you.

Pretty durned f'ing indeed.

scruffziller
10-11-2005, 12:53 PM
I pretty much look at this from a Freudian point of view with the Id, Ego and Superego. Or the Angel and Devil on each shoulder. The person is still the same entity, it just depends on which force is in control. When he is Vader the Id(passion, evil side) is in control when he is the good "Anakin" the superego(intellect, good side) is in control. And in the middle is the Ego or the blank entity to be controlled by either force.

Elliejabbapop
10-12-2005, 12:09 PM
What on earth are you talking about?

Again, what are you talking about?
1) I was talking about what I had quoted from your answer;
2) I meant that kids are squeaky clean most of the time.





It's an observation based on watching what's on screen.
So are mine.





Honey, I've "proven" you wrong without resorting to a personal attack
You have? I don't think so and I still can't understand why you feel I'm attacking you. Maybe it's just a mutual impression.


For some reason, you feel as if you have some kind of inside information about human character development that the rest of us aren't privy to just because you're a chick.
I never said that I felt this way because I am a woman but thank you for the compliment. However, I do have "inside information" and you relating it just to my sex reveals a lot about your own character. Still, this is not a psychology forum, but I'd be very glad to discuss it with you privately.


Maybe the guy you "rescued" is an emotional buffoon
What are you talking about? Seriously.... :confused:


I realize that that truth hurts
You need to be a little creative baby. You can't beat me at my own game. :love:


Don't say I never did anything for you...Honey.
Quite the contrary, you've been very useful to my post count :D


Hmmm...I think another alarm is going off. Please familiarize yourself with proper usage of the word "literally". It's bad enough we have to wade through the trite snippiness that usually prevades your posts.
Literally is just fine and you are among those people who have demonstrated it. BTW that "we" is very good for my case :D.



Sean is dealing with the same insecurities now at at 28 that he had at age 5.
Well maybe Sean should pay a visit to a good doctor.


My mother will tell you that I haven't changed one bit, and if I'm being honest with myself, and I can't disagree with her at all.
Mothers always want to believe their kids don't change.


At the core, I'm still a very shy and sensitive introvert with highly rigid sense of order.
You don't say... :rolleyes:


No matter what I do, or whatever happens to me over the course of my life, that natural tendency will not change.

Read my original post. I never tampered with the essence but with the inclination of the human mind that pushes the essence to divert from its natural state even if it is not curruptible in itself . By the way that's what happens, whether you like it or not.

ps. You'll forgive me if I don't read the long part. I think I've had enough b******s for one day :rolleyes: .


"Hi, I'd like you to meet my daughter, Harper, age 40. I used to have another daughter named Harper, but I lost track of her when she turned 4. I actually had another daughter named Harper too, but she disappeared at age 16."
Why do you think parents always talk about their children's childhood when they have become adults?


but sometimes that just happens because we aren't the same people later life that we were when we were kids.
Welcome to the real world, buy it or not, accept it or not.


You're losing me on the math...50% of what? How can continuity not be 100%? If something isn't 100%, then I can assure you, it's anything but continuous. 50% continuity is like a partial stop. I'll assume you still have the dictionary out from looking up "literally", so go ahead, thumb through and have a gander at "continuity".
Ah, racism. The fact that I live in Italy doesn't mean I can't speak English and if you could speak English, knew anything about Maths, Philosophy or Physics you'd understand that percentages are not an absolute, they are relative terms in a larger context. Maybe you don't need to know about all these subjects, you just need to have a mind that is not plain thick.


It's funny how most fans of Sense and Sensibility (at least the ones I've met) have little of either or both.
Who said I liked Sense and Sensibility? Again, presumption.
BTW I suppose judging people by what they read comes in very handy to a mind that does not understand feelings. :thumbsup:

seanmcfripp
10-12-2005, 05:11 PM
Literally is just fine and you are among those people who have demonstrated it. BTW that "we" is very good for my case :D.
Let's beat this up some more then...

You: "Before anyone is literally inflated and explodes..."

You're mis-using the word "literally" as though it were "actually". Folks do it all the time, and ****es me off to no end.

So for the record, if any of us literally were inflated and exploded, we'd actually be in a million pieces all over the wall. "Literally" should be used to segue out of a metaphor, not reaffirm it.


Well maybe Sean should pay a visit to a good doctor.
No, Sean is...wait, this is stupid. I'm not referring to myself in the third person. I am fit as a fiddle, in body, mind, and soul. I embrace my natural tendancy, I don't try to re-invent myself into something I'm not.


Mothers always want to believe their kids don't change.
Always? Are you one of those mothers? Are you even a mother at all? If not, what kind of mother do you think you'd be, at least in terms of what we're talking about? Better yet, how would feel to have been Anakin's mother? I know it's tough to step outside of this little crush you have going for Hayden (which is pretty obvious in everything you say about the guy), but just step outside of that for a sec. What would your reaction as a mother be to making out with - I mean - raising Anakin Skywalker?


You don't say... :rolleyes:
I do say.


Read my original post. I never tampered with the essence but with the inclination of the human mind that pushes the essence to divert from its natural state even if it is not curruptible in itself . By the way that's what happens, whether you like it or not.
Uh, I think we're saying the same thing then. We're all predisposed to a particular type logic, but we accomodate it in different ways as individuals. There's something about your writing that I can't quite put my finger on. It's just a little, I dunno, Italian maybe? More on that later...


ps. You'll forgive me if I don't read the long part. I think I've had enough b******s for one day :rolleyes: .
Oh, you know you can't get enough. You always come back for more, I've got plenty to go 'round! I'll even make you a s**t sandwich, if you're game.


Why do you think parents always talk about their children's childhood when they have become adults?
What parents are you talking about? I don't mind a little generalization now and then (you did it when describing mothers), but this is getting a bit ridiculous. I'm gonna pull a you for a sec: Do you hate your mother and father? It's obvious that you're running away from the little girl you used to be.



Welcome to the real world...
*through squinty eyes*

Morpheus...is that you? I know kung-fu.



Ah, racism. The fact that I live in Italy doesn't mean I can't speak English and if you could speak English, knew anything about Maths, Philosophy or Physics you'd understand that percentages are not an absolute, they are relative terms in a larger context. Maybe you don't need to know about all these subjects, you just need to have a mind that is not plain thick.
WHAT!!?? Racism?!

* looks around *

You can't be talking to me.

Oh wait, I think I get it...you think because I was critical of your "50% continuity" logic that I was putting down Italians? You can't fuse the two ideas together. "50%" and "continuity" can't be used to describe the same thing (at least that I'm aware of). If you don't want to talk about absolutes, then don't use the word "continuity" to describe something that isn't absolute.

As far as Italy goes? To be honest, I really don't care where you're from. Your profile says "location: Italy", but I have no idea why you're there, nor do I care. You could be native born, living there by choice, stationed in the military as a U.S. soldier...doesn't make a difference to me. You're Italianess explains a lot though.

Like I said before, there's something a little "off" about your writing style. I don't know how to quantify that exactly, but I don't think anyone can disagree. At least it explains why I have to re-read certain parts of your posts before I have a clue as to what you're trying to say. This will probably make me sound like an American idiot, but to my mind's ears, you sound "foriegn". It would be an afterthought if you were in any way likable, but since you have no sense of humor, and the propensity to create confrontation given even the slightest chance, I'm less inclined to cut you slack and find every reason to call you out on muddled and poorly rendered ideas.

In other words, talk gooder English. Stop trying to be so wordy and just spit it out (advice I should take to heart as well).

Oh, and another thing, something maybe you can help me out with. I have a beef with a Shepherd College (now University, since I'm long gone). I went there for a buncha' years and paid 'em a buncha' money, but you know what? They didn't teach me no Maths, Philosophy, of Physics! I got ripped off! I had no idea until you told me. I's gonna march right up to the Dean's office and dump my worthless diploma on his desk in a million pieces and say,

"My education sucked! I understand there are Maths out there that you didn't teach me! Not just one Math, but many Mathz (plural)! And what about Philosophy and Physics! Oh no, I don't want just one Physic, I want all the Physics. Or is that Physics's. Anyway, I want my money back, or I want to go back to school for free done right!"

I think you'd really be able to help me with that.


Who said I liked Sense and Sensibility? Again, presumption.
You didn't, but I think there was enough for me to go on to make that presumption. People don't usually make a practice of quoting people they don't like or agree with to support their position. If by some chance you don't like 'ol Jane, let me help you out a bit, so's you can pick out some new quotes by some different folks: It's a really dumb, overused quote (by a terribly boring author) used by really annoying, pseudo intellectual chicks who'll find any excuse to use it to make men feel dumb. I've never met an attractive woman who likes to use that quote. I'm not saying anything about you, cuz I guess that'd be presumptious.


BTW I suppose judging people by what they read comes in very handy to a mind that does not understand feelings. :thumbsup:
Again, there's something a little strange about how this is worded. I mean, grammatically it's ok, as far as I can tell, but it just has this weird flavor (I guess it's Italian) to it. Maybe it's the "a mind that does not understand feelings" part of it that confuses me. You're talking about my mind, right? If you are, I just don't see how that statement is related to what we're talking about. It's just this bizarre, stand-alone dig that seems to have no other purpose but to insult me. If you want to lay some smack down, go for it, but these free floating, almost abstract hostilities aren't gonna cut it.

Jayspawn
10-13-2005, 10:19 AM
Back to the topic (which I find an interesting one), I see Anakin and Vader as 2 different people in the same person. Technically as Vader after Palpatine gives him the title, but for several other reasons...

- Anakin Skywalker was a good person. A Jedi Knight with amazing potential. A great leader, pilot and hero in the Clone Wars. Good Husband and best friend and brother to Kenobi.

- Darth Vader is an evil person by Anakin's nature of the Dark Side. Hes been so twisted that even things naturally right or wrong are precieved differently through his evil mind.

Droid
10-13-2005, 01:59 PM
- Anakin Skywalker was a good person. A Jedi Knight with amazing potential. A great leader, pilot and hero in the Clone Wars. Good Husband and best friend and brother to Kenobi.
I think that line of thinking is a cop out that fails to hold people responsible for their actions. I tire of the "look I was another person when I did that" attitude. Anakin made choices, terrible choices. He was not tricked, put under hypnosis, or drugs or something. He chose to become evil because he was selfish and because it was easier than facing that Padme could die.


If by some chance you don't like 'ol Jane, let me help you out a bit, so's you can pick out some new quotes by some different folks: It's a really dumb, overused quote (by a terribly boring author)...
Off topic, I know, but:

Mark Twain on Jane Austen:

"Every time I read Pride and Prejudice I want to dig her up and beat her over the skull with her own shinbone."

"Jane Austen's books are absent from this library. Just that one omission alone would make a fairly good library out of a library that hadn't a book in it."

"I could read Poe's work on salary, but not Jane's. Jane is entirely impossible. It seems a great pity they allowed her to die a natural death."

JediTricks
10-13-2005, 02:58 PM
Alright, everybody stop with the personal attack bullcrap right now or there are suspensions getting handed out, I am sick to death of seeing this every day. Take this personal crap to private messaging or email, anywhere OFF the forums, but do it NOW or this thread gets closed and folks are getting a 2-day time-out.



- - -



Back to the topic (which I find an interesting one), I see Anakin and Vader as 2 different people in the same person. Technically as Vader after Palpatine gives him the title, but for several other reasons...

- Anakin Skywalker was a good person. A Jedi Knight with amazing potential. A great leader, pilot and hero in the Clone Wars. Good Husband and best friend and brother to Kenobi.

- Darth Vader is an evil person by Anakin's nature of the Dark Side. Hes been so twisted that even things naturally right or wrong are precieved differently through his evil mind.That is basically an extension of the rationale which Obi-Wan gave in ROTJ, and if that movie existed in the abstract then I'd agree with you. However, adding the prequels into the mix, I don't think the Anakin Skywalker character we were given in the prequels ever was the good husband or best friend or great leader or even good person (not even the little kid).

seanmcfripp
10-13-2005, 03:04 PM
Alright, everybody stop with the personal attack bullcrap right now or there are suspensions getting handed out, I am sick to death of seeing this every day. Take this personal crap to private messaging or email, anywhere OFF the forums, but do it NOW or this thread gets closed and folks are getting a 2-day time-out.



- - -




I'd hate to see Mark Twain get banned from the boards. He's a funny guy.

Droid
10-14-2005, 02:11 PM
However, adding the prequels into the mix, I don't think the Anakin Skywalker character we were given in the prequels ever was the good husband or best friend or great leader or even good person (not even the little kid).

I was right there with you until the end. Why wasn't the little kid a good person?

JediTricks
10-14-2005, 02:20 PM
Ok, that was perhaps a bit harsh on my part, what I meant is that the kid in TPM was never totally "good", he had the beginnings of the Dark Side within him even then, that glower at Mace said a LOT to me. There used to be a lot of talk about lil Ani being a purely good child back in the day which kinda felt wrong to me and clearly carried through to this day. I will revise my statement:

...adding the prequels into the mix, I don't think the Anakin Skywalker character we were given in the prequels ever was the good husband or best friend or great leader or even good person once he became an adult.

Howzat? ;)

Droid
10-17-2005, 10:13 AM
Ok, that was perhaps a bit harsh on my part, what I meant is that the kid in TPM was never totally "good", he had the beginnings of the Dark Side within him even then, that glower at Mace said a LOT to me. There used to be a lot of talk about lil Ani being a purely good child back in the day which kinda felt wrong to me and clearly carried through to this day. I will revise my statement:

...adding the prequels into the mix, I don't think the Anakin Skywalker character we were given in the prequels ever was the good husband or best friend or great leader or even good person once he became an adult.

Howzat? ;)

Ya, I agree with that.

Elliejabbapop
10-19-2005, 02:37 AM
Back to the topic (which I find an interesting one), I see Anakin and Vader as 2 different people in the same person. Technically as Vader after Palpatine gives him the title, but for several other reasons...

- Anakin Skywalker was a good person. A Jedi Knight with amazing potential. A great leader, pilot and hero in the Clone Wars. Good Husband and best friend and brother to Kenobi.

- Darth Vader is an evil person by Anakin's nature of the Dark Side. Hes been so twisted that even things naturally right or wrong are precieved differently through his evil mind.

I completely agree Jay, there's nothing else to say. :thumbsup:

ps. Droid I already know about Mark Twain's idiotic comment and since we can't be honest here we'll have to discuss it via pm. What do you think?

Droid
10-19-2005, 08:49 AM
Droid I already know about Mark Twain's idiotic comment and since we can't be honest here we'll have to discuss it via pm. What do you think?

I don't think JediTricks will get too cross about a literary discussion (though he may say it is off topic). I think he was more concerned about personal attacks.

I don't agree with everything Twain said, but I usually get a big kick out of the way he said it. The man was a hoot.

Elliejabbapop
10-19-2005, 09:47 AM
He was also not a very good writer compared to Jane Austen.

JediTricks
10-19-2005, 02:41 PM
I don't think JediTricks will get too cross about a literary discussion (though he may say it is off topic). I think he was more concerned about personal attacks.
Yeah, exactly. That's fine, so long as it doesn't totally dominate the thread (and then we'd just split the thread in twain - pun intended). Literary discussions = good... literary discussions as they relate to Ep III = better. :p

seanmcfripp
10-21-2005, 08:09 AM
"I think Vader and Anakin are literally two different people."

Can't remember where I read it, but I'm pretty sure that's a quote by Jane Austen. I gotta re-think my whole position on this thing now.