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JEDIpartner
10-11-2005, 02:00 PM
Really? Are we sure about that? NOBODY else except Anakin has been brought into the council without becoming a Master? Depending on the "authorised" source from which you draw your information, it states that Ki-Adi-Mundi was brought into the council without being elevated to "Master" status. DK's "Ultimate Visual Guide" still states that factoid. If you go to StarWars.com, it states Ki-Adi-Mundi is a knight. Oh, what to do?!!!

Anyhow, I wasn't sure if this has been discussed. If it has, I couldn't find a thread for it.

:whip:

JimJamBonds
10-11-2005, 02:42 PM
I don't recall this being brought up before as far as I can remember. The funny thing is as soon as I saw the thread title I thought of Ki-Adi and a trivia question from the TPM era: 'Who's the only council member that is not a Jedi Master?' It seems that this is a bit of a snafu that was missed. :yes:

El Chuxter
10-11-2005, 03:16 PM
The official EU word about TPM was that Ki-Adi was a Knight, placed on the Council because his binary Cerean brain gave him a unique insight into the Force.

For AOTC, all sources referred to him as a Master, and the EU assumption was that he had trained A'Sharad Hett to Knighthood and was granted the "Master" title.

In ROTS, Anakin makes his comment about a Knight on the Council being unprecedented. But, as you said, then the Ultimate Visual Guide comes out and still says Ki-Adi was a Knight.

My guess is Anakin simply didn't know Ki-Adi was placed on the Council prior to becoming a Master. And Obi-Wan thought, "Man, I ought to correct him, but my boy's mad, and that'd not be a good idea."

All solved. Except for Genndy Tartakovsky's commentary for Clone Wars Episode 20 that says the Cerean Padawan was Ki-Adi's Padawan, and there's no way that could be the case.

Rocketboy
10-11-2005, 03:53 PM
The way I see it, when it comes to EU vs the movies, the movies always win.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-11-2005, 06:19 PM
The way I see it, when it comes to EU vs the movies, the movies always win.
Agreed. Never once in the films did anyone say Ki-Adi-Mundi was a Knight on the council.

El Chuxter
10-11-2005, 06:37 PM
No one's disputing that. However, if you're going to mention even the idea that Ki-Adi was a Knight and not a Master, you've introduced EU into the discussion. :)

Slicker
10-11-2005, 11:14 PM
I too knew exactly what this was gonna be about when I read the title. Actually when I first saw ROTS and I saw that part I immediately thought of Ki-Adi and how I thought he was a Knight in TPM. Oh, how wrong I was. I realize that you have to go by EU when dealing with this matter but from just the movie you would be led to believe that Ani was the only one and that all members of the council, Ki-Adi included, are Masters and always have been.

2-1B
10-11-2005, 11:27 PM
As far as I'm concerned, KAM is a Master in TPM.

Jayspawn
10-12-2005, 01:15 AM
It can go either way, Anakin could have been jumping to conclusions as he was upset.

JEDIpartner
10-12-2005, 10:07 AM
I'm so glad I started this thread. It's been bothering me for a while... :)

TheDarthVader
10-12-2005, 12:03 PM
This is a good question, and I do not have an answer for you. I always thought that he was a knight in TPM and then a master in AOTC.

B.
TDV

El Chuxter
10-12-2005, 01:07 PM
It's very simple, guys. Seriously. If you want to go by the movies, or if you have never followed EU, Ki-Adi's a Master in TPM. If you go by EU, Anakin was mistaken or uninformed. No need to argue. :)

JimJamBonds
10-12-2005, 02:04 PM
Exactly Chux. :yes:

jedi master sal
10-12-2005, 02:55 PM
Okay, let me throw a small Monkey Wrench yet possible fix all at the same time.

Anakin says it's not been done before. Some Jedi are "masters" to their apprentice's while still holding the rank of Knight. (Obi-wan at first for instance). So the inference could also mean that it has never been done before that a Knight make the council without first being a master (note small "m") to a padawan.

So all of it can be true.

Ki was a master to A'Sharad Hett (sp?), while still a Knight. He then attained the rank of Master (not the large "M").
Also, about Ki's Cereluan (sp?) apprentice's, IIRC, Hett was on his own by the time of the Clone Wars, so Ki could have taken on the Cereluan padawan. That or the padawan's Master could have been killed prior to us seeing him in the cartoon and the council assigned him to Ki.

There, nice and tidy - sort of.
-Sal

El Chuxter
10-12-2005, 03:09 PM
Yeah, my guess is that that guy was Ki-Adi's Padawan for a brief time. There's no mention of him having another Padawan at any point, and he couldn't have trained two. This dude is clearly an adult. I'm guessing his master was killed on Hypori by Grievous and, being the most senior of the Masters on the planet, Ki-Adi took over his training for the remaining days (hours) of his life.

Speaking of Masters on Hypori, does anyone know when Aayla got the promotion?

JediTricks
10-12-2005, 03:26 PM
I didn't like this point in the movie, I knew about the EU saying Kone-Heady-Mundi was a Knight in TPM but I also accepted that the movies trump the EU. What I really didn't like was the way young Anakin was having a freak attack about it, as if he thinks a 22-year-old kid deserves to be a Jedi Master simply because he's been put on the council through outside political actions. I also didn't like the idea of Obi-Wan being a Jedi Master on the council though.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-12-2005, 07:17 PM
Yeah, my guess is that that guy was Ki-Adi's Padawan for a brief time. There's no mention of him having another Padawan at any point, and he couldn't have trained two. This dude is clearly an adult. I'm guessing his master was killed on Hypori by Grievous and, being the most senior of the Masters on the planet, Ki-Adi took over his training for the remaining days (hours) of his life.

Speaking of Masters on Hypori, does anyone know when Aayla got the promotion?
Aayla's still a Knight until her death, as far as I know. Her ROTS figure is named Aayla Secura (Jedi Knight), and I haven't heard anything otherwise.

If you want to have it so that the movies don't contradict the EU, Ki-Adi-Mundi was a Knight when they put him on the Council, but was immediately Master-ized. Maybe?

jlw
10-12-2005, 07:52 PM
I'm with JT on this one. When the Movies and EU contradict, the Movies win.

That's the problem with trying to write stories between the movies, and make little back stories to the characters. Dark Horse may write something, like Ki-Adi only being a Jedi Knight but also on the Council. Then ROTS comes out and says that Anakin is the only member of the Council that has not been appointed to Master. To me, this makes Dark Horse's (and the EU) back story of Ki-Adi null and void.

And to try to explain it as Anakin didn't know that Ki-Adi was only a Knight is silly. How many years have passed from TPM to ROTS, and how much time has Anakin spent around Ki-Adi; and Anakin didn't know Ki-Adi was appointed to the Council as only a Jedi Knight? Come on.

And the explanation of "master" vs "Master" really doesn't work either. Because the Padawan in the temple refers to Anakin as "Master Skywalker"; Anakin is clearly talking about "rank" in the Jedi order, and this is what Mace Windu says, "We will not appoint you to Jedi Master".

Face it guys, the movie has debunked the comics and EU. And this is where I am different than a lot of fans. I read the comics (somewhat), but to me, they really aren't apart of the "REAL" Star Wars Saga unless it is referred to in the movies, like the mentioning of Quinlon Vos. When some EU source says something, that doesn't gell out in the movies, then that EU source is just wrong.

Like what some source books have said about Jedi Council members: 3for life; 3 for so long, etc. etc. Then for the most part the Jedi Coucil has not changed from TPM to ROTS, and those members that have changed have been explained as having been killed.

The way I look at it (and my opinion is as good as anyone else's) the "ranks" of the Jedi order are as follows: Padawan, Jedi Knight, Jedi Master, Jedi Council Member: and all of these can "generically" be referred to as Jedi or Jedi Knights (as seen in the crawl of TPM).

However, I personally liked the fact that Obi-Wan was a Master and on the Council. He's as "wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu". Would've looked pretty sorry for Yoda to have been the ONLY Council member to survive, but a Jedi Knight could. Also they had to make Obi-Wan a master in order to play the whole Anakin appointed to the Council plot.

Darth Jax
10-12-2005, 08:46 PM
anakin was hopping mad about being appointed to the council but not being made a "Master" because it meant the entire jedi histories/holocrons were still off limits to him. only the masters could access them all, and he needed info about darth plagueis if he were to save padme. as has been mentioned in several discussions of ROTS, the book was much more informative than the movie.

until anakin made such a big deal about it i hadn't connected being a jedi master (as opposed to being a knight) as meaning someone was on the jedi council. i pretty much thought that one was a padawan or a jedi. "master" being a term of respect/authority for those jedi that had (current or in the past) trained a padawan.

JimJamBonds
10-13-2005, 01:38 AM
anakin was hopping mad about being appointed to the council but not being made a "Master" because it meant the entire jedi histories/holocrons were still off limits to him. only the masters could access them all, and he needed info about darth plagueis if he were to save padme. as has been mentioned in several discussions of ROTS, the book was much more informative than the movie.

That bit is in the book and while it was ok to read I'm more then happy that that business never made it into the movie. He's just a salty 22ish year old that wishes he'd have the title of 'Master' so his ego would be stroked a bit more.

2-1B
10-13-2005, 02:00 AM
Anakin said it was "insulting" and considering his pride, well, yeah he's gonna be a sourpuss about it.

JEDIpartner
10-13-2005, 09:04 AM
It's obvious that Anakin thought more highly of himself and his abilities than anyone else did. I can see why he'd fly off the handle. You come up against any "unstable" who has an inflated self-image and you sell him short and he'll let you know what he thinks of himself.

seanmcfripp
10-13-2005, 10:29 AM
It's obvious that Anakin thought more highly of himself and his abilities than anyone else did. I can see why he'd fly off the handle. You come up against any "unstable" who has an inflated self-image and you sell him short and he'll let you know what he thinks of himself.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "unstable"? I happen to agree with what you're saying, and I certainly wouldn't hesitate to describe Ani as "unstable" myself, but I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

JEDIpartner
10-13-2005, 10:57 AM
You know... some of those puffed up types that you see hanging out at the bars on Friday nights. They think they are god's gift to women, men, society, the workplace and that they can do no wrong. Actually, I work with one. It's one of those odd mixes of too much self-pride but unfortunate self-esteem issue. He takes everything so personally and flies off the handle when ever you correct him or he doesn't get his way. He stomps around and glowers and becomes loud and menacing. Other times, he is the "life of the party" and thinks he's the funniest or the smartest or the best looking. You should have heard him go off the day some of the girls said they thought I was the best looking guy working here and he was in the lunchroom with them. Mind you, I hardly think I am the best looking ANYWHERE but he blew up and said stuff like, "Him?!!! He's only 5'8 and he has a stocky build. Girls like taller men with leaner builds. So what if he works out and has more muscle! Besides... he's old!" He was on fire... I laughed for about ten minutes when one of the girls told me about this exchange. :D

JimJamBonds
10-13-2005, 11:43 AM
How many times do you think Anakin heard somebody reference him as "the chosen one?" I don't know about you folks but if I kept hearing how I was to be the person to right all the wrongs and there was a guy pumping me up stroking my ego (Palps) I think I'd have a bit of a 'diva' attitude as well. ;)

Darth Spectre
10-13-2005, 11:49 AM
Actually, I believe the packaging of the Ki-Adi Mundi figure back for TPM mentions that he was a knight and not a master. I don't know if that is still EU, but it would seem to me since it is officially licensed movie product that it certainly throws another monkey wrench into things. Who knows though. Lucas let lots of things slip through that make little sense, such as why Plo Koon was able to have a yellow saber in TPM, Mace blue and the strangest was Adi Gallia having a red saber. Even in Jedi Power Battles, all these colors are carried over too. Even though these are only in games & toys, Lucas should have never allowed this if he was set on his green, blue & red thing (Mace aside, cause Sam as clout...LOL).

JEDIpartner
10-13-2005, 02:18 PM
EU is licensed as well... so are all of the "reference" materials.

Darth Spectre
10-13-2005, 02:30 PM
Well, obviously yes. My point was since it was officially tied into promoting Ep I, it makes it borderline EU at best and more like canon, at least from my POV.


And I too thought of Ki-Adi when Anakin made that statement. That goes along with Yoda's statement of "Always two there are..." as another statement that probably should not have been made considering the background that was established.

JediTricks
10-13-2005, 05:52 PM
However, I personally liked the fact that Obi-Wan was a Master and on the Council. He's as "wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu". So says his surrogate son. The kid might as well have said "Obi-Wan can beat up Superman". :p


Would've looked pretty sorry for Yoda to have been the ONLY Council member to survive, but a Jedi Knight could. The movie suggests that other Jedi Knights survived the purge seen in ROTS, so why not Obi-Wan?


Also they had to make Obi-Wan a master in order to play the whole Anakin appointed to the Council plot.And they had to play that "Anakin appointed to the Council" plot... why? ;)



It's obvious that Anakin thought more highly of himself and his abilities than anyone else did. I can see why he'd fly off the handle.Gee, I wonder WHY Anakin thinks so highly of himself. Maybe it's because everybody keeps reminding him that he is the chosen one, created by the midichlorians themselves.


How many times do you think Anakin heard somebody reference him as "the chosen one?" I don't know about you folks but if I kept hearing how I was to be the person to right all the wrongs and there was a guy pumping me up stroking my ego (Palps) I think I'd have a bit of a 'diva' attitude as well. ;)Dang it! You stole my idea before I had it! :razz:



Well, obviously yes. My point was since it was officially tied into promoting Ep I, it makes it borderline EU at best and more like canonSo were the novels and the reference books at that time, it's all just more EU. The kahoun assassin insects that come with Ep 2 electronic R2-D2 are different from the movie version, doesn't mean they're canon.

seanmcfripp
10-14-2005, 08:36 AM
You know... some of those puffed up types that you see hanging out at the bars on Friday nights. They think they are god's gift to women, men, society, the workplace and that they can do no wrong. Actually, I work with one. It's one of those odd mixes of too much self-pride but unfortunate self-esteem issue. He takes everything so personally and flies off the handle when ever you correct him or he doesn't get his way. He stomps around and glowers and becomes loud and menacing. Other times, he is the "life of the party" and thinks he's the funniest or the smartest or the best looking. You should have heard him go off the day some of the girls said they thought I was the best looking guy working here and he was in the lunchroom with them. Mind you, I hardly think I am the best looking ANYWHERE but he blew up and said stuff like, "Him?!!! He's only 5'8 and he has a stocky build. Girls like taller men with leaner builds. So what if he works out and has more muscle! Besides... he's old!" He was on fire... I laughed for about ten minutes when one of the girls told me about this exchange. :D

Wait a minute...where do you work? I ask, because I think I work with the same guy! I think everyone has a douche like that at their work place. The one I'm stuck with is named "Marcus". Oh gawd, he is intolerable. We get some great laughs at his expense too.