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View Full Version : One detail about the showdown in Palpy's office STILL bugs me



El Chuxter
11-03-2005, 03:04 PM
Okay, so Palpatine kills Sassy, Kit, and Agen without blinking, thus ensuring that fashion sense, grins, and the ability to kinda sorta pass for Eeth Koth are gone from the Jedi Council forever.

Then he's getting his butt kicked by Mace and Anakin walks in. Yadda yadda yadda, Mace is killed, Palpatine turns into a wretched mess of bad makeup effects, Anakin becomes Vader.

Soooooo. . . .

Immediately afterwards, Palpatine tells Anakin that he must kill everyone in the Temple and that he himself will deal with the other Jedi. And the he tells Anakin to go to the Mustafar system, where he must kill the Separatist leaders.

Uhhhh. . . . ?

The entire "turning to evil" thing in the film hinges upon Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi vs his loyalty to Palpatine and the Republic. He's just been told that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic and is all gung-ho on killing them off.

When Palpatine gives away the fact that he knows far more about the Separatists than he's been letting on, why doesn't Anakin stop and say, "Dude, you're full of crap. I'm just going to take my chances standing trial for cutting Mace in two." Or even just, "Uh, Chancellor, how the hell do you know that?"

If nothing else, when Nute is begging for his life on Mustafar, why doesn't Anakin say, "Woah, man, hold up a second. I'm still going to kill you because you're a d****bag, but what's all this jibber-jabber about you working for Sidious?"

JimJamBonds
11-04-2005, 12:57 AM
I think Ani wanted any knowledge he could get to save Padders at that point that he wasn't really thinking about who all did what. As he said to Palps "just help me save Padme, I can't live without her."

2-1B
11-04-2005, 12:01 PM
And he wasn't even all that loyal, considering he was ready to turn on Palps anyway.

Remember Chux, when Palps lets slip the location of General Grievous, the Council questions Anakin as to how that info was learned and Anakin recites the "intercepted diplomatic packet from the leader of Utapau" so the same would hold here, I believe. Kenobi had already killed Grievous, so the information could have been picked up during that encounter and Skywalker wouldn't know for sure how Palps knew about Mustafar.

But really, why did it have to be a secret as to their whereabouts in the first place ? :confused: Earlier, Padme was asking Anakin to get Palps to open negotiations so it wouldn't be absolutely impossible to get in touch with them. lol

Regarding Palps vs. Mace, I think it's a combination of things . . . listening to the commentary last night, George originally made it so that Mace had him beat solid and was going to kill him but Anakin finally broke down and saved Palps. Then they redid it so Mace was going to kill him, but they made Palps more sleazy and weas'ly by feigning weakness to play on Anakin's mind a bit more.

CooLJoE
11-04-2005, 02:05 PM
I still cannot stand how quick the 3 other Jedi with Mace had died. Every time I watch it, it annoys me. They were killed so easy that they look like they should never have been Jedi in the first place.


And yeah, it bugs me how fast Anakin chooses the dark side and accepts Palpatines orders and such.

JimJamBonds
11-04-2005, 02:20 PM
With those other 3 going down so quickly it gives more 'drama' to the one on one battle. :rolleyes: Remember Sam didn't want to go out like a punk. :o

TheDarthVader
11-04-2005, 05:25 PM
Remember the line (following Palpy telling Anakin to go to these places), "Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme."

Palpy just plays off Anakin's love for Padme. He just plants false ideas into his head.

B.
TDV

sith_killer_99
11-04-2005, 06:19 PM
Yeah, I think it really kinda becomes irrelavant to Anakin after he takes out Mace.

George keeps hitting us with this whole "turmoil" thing that Anakin was going through. I guess he wasn't really thinking straight. I will be the first to admit that there were a lot of inconsistancies with Anakin's turn to the dark side, but such is the way of the film.

There were lots of times Anakin should have stopped and questioned what was going on. He didn't because what he really wanted was the power, the power to save Padme'. When someone wants something bad enough they just rationalize the inconsistancies away.

DarthBrandon
11-04-2005, 07:06 PM
Well said sith_killer_99,

that's what I thought all along when I seen the film, he doesn't question anything because nothing else matters to him at that point. Anakin just wants the power to save the one he loves which ironically is the just the reason he loses her & everyone else in the process.

I do agree the Palpatine fight looked like a joke on screen, I would have liked it better had Palpatine force threw something (statue perhaps) at Agen (which kills him), then kills Master Tin after a spar or two (maybe punch Tin in the face ala Darth Maul, then move in for the killing blow), after that he could spar with Kit & Mace for a few seconds killing Kit after sending Mace back with a force push, this leaves Mace & Palpy all alone to duke it out until Mace gets the upper hand which will be reversed after Anakin betrays the Jedi order. This IMHO would have been ten times better than what we've seen on screen & still gives Palpy the powerful look that George is looking for. What was depicted on screen was three Jedi punks & one Bad MF ala Mace.

Other than that the rest of the film was great, even Yoda having to retreat because he figured out he couldn't beat Palpy & it would be unwise to continue to try.

2-1B
11-04-2005, 09:27 PM
If nothing else, when Nute is begging for his life on Mustafar, why doesn't Anakin say, "Woah, man, hold up a second. I'm still going to kill you because you're a d****bag, but what's all this jibber-jabber about you working for Sidious?"

When did Nute ever say to Anakin that he was working for Sidious ? :confused:

He told Vader that the war was over and Lord Sidious promised them peace . . . Sids told Vader where to find them in the first place, obviously Palps had talked to Nute since Nute said they spoke, but going back to my last post where I said that maybe Sids "got" the info the same way he did about Utapau, well that wouldn't really hold up here since Nute tips his hand that Palps talked to him.

But it still doesn't matter, because after Grievous' death the war was supposed to be 'over' and it's not unusual for the losing dilpomats to converse with the victor (Sids). So as far as Anakin is concerned, Sids told him to go wipe out the leaders and all Anakin should realize is that Sids told Nute that Vader was coming and of course Palps lied about Vader's intentions which made it easier for him to "wipe them out." :crazed:

tagmac
11-05-2005, 12:38 PM
I still cannot stand how quick the 3 other Jedi with Mace had died. Every time I watch it, it annoys me. They were killed so easy that they look like they should never have been Jedi in the first place.

I have to agree. At least in the novel, Palpy demosnstrates just how strong he is by getting in the minds of Kolar and Tiin, confusing them before killing them. The only thing that excuses this is, from what I read, Palpatine supposedly is capable of moving about 1000 times faster than a normal human. In slo-mo (on the DVD), it appears Kolar and Tii are raising their sabres to strike as Palpy cuts them down, and Kit looks clearly off-balance and overmatched during his brief defense. As the audience, we are actually watching a fight being played out in "slow-motion," where Palpatine is simply so fast, he can beat even some of the best Jedi on speed alone. Only Yoda and Mace are powerful enough to match him in speed, which is clear in how Mace clearly has Palpatine beat - no way did he allow himself to be disarmed by letting Mace kick him. It's when Anakin walks in and he feigns weakness after the lightning attack that Palpatine's expressions show that NOW he is throwing the fight to test Anakin's response.

As for Yoda, it was clear that the fight was at least a stalemate, but with Yoda as the only Jedi capable of withstanding force lightning, he could have won had he been on a more even footing, and had he not lost his saber. The look on Palpy's face just before he and Yoda are thrown apart is clearly one of pain and fear - if they hadn't been so high up in the air, and Yoda was armed, he could have beaten Palpy right there.

......but then, we wouldn't have an Original Trilogy then, would we? ;)

Speaking of Palpatine, thanks to the pause button, I'm now convinced that he was, in fact, looking at the Death Star plans when Anakin walks into his office a few scenes earlier.

2-1B
11-05-2005, 01:46 PM
I'm not going to argue with you guys for not liking how fast those other 3 Jedi are wiped out because I know what you're saying . . . but for me I just am not bothered by it.

The way I see it, Charlotte is just better than those guys and he handles them with ease. It probably could have been shot better but it just isn't an issue for me.

So I don't see it as a knock on Sassy, Kolar, or Mighty Grin Boy but rather a compliment to Charlotte, if that makes any sense ? :p

The 'Xir
11-05-2005, 02:53 PM
Remember the line (following Palpy telling Anakin to go to these places), "Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme."


I'm sooooo glad someone brought this up, 'cause it's one of the many things that has been bugging me ever since I saw the film. I really don't like Anakins turn to the Dark Side, the only thing that makes it viable is his love for Padme and wanting to protect her and that's it, everything else is complete BS and crappy story telling!

Especially with the quote that TDV brought up above, and this other exchange between the two in the movie(taken from RotS Script):

ANAKIN: Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her. I won't let her die. I want the power to stop death.

PALPATINE: To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

WHAT?!!!

The whole movie Palptine is telling Anakin that he already has this power:

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

ANAKIN: What happened to him?

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

ANAKIN: Is it possible to learn this power?

PALPATINE: Not from a Jedi.

AGAIN:

ANAKIN: How do you know the ways of the Force?

PALPATINE: My mentor taught me everything about the Force . . . even the nature of the dark side.

They stop.

ANAKIN: You know the dark side?!?

PALPATINE: Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force. Be careful of the Jedi, Anakin. (pausing) They fear you. In time they will destroy you. Let me train you.

ANAKIN: I won't be a pawn in your political game. The Jedi are my family.

PALPATINE: Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.

ANAKIN: What did you say?

PALPATINE: Use my knowledge, I beg you . . .


The point of all this is, IS that Palptine is stating to Anakin that the power exists, and that he knows what it is, and if Anakin joins him and submits to the Dark Side that Palptine will teach it to him and save his wife. However, now with everything we know above, Palpatine then admits that he doesn't know this knowledge, AGAIN:

PALPATINE: To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

So why would Anakin join him if he might be able to learn this power! I mean if only one had achieved it before isn't it possible that they might fail and Padme will die anyways. Anakins whole point, his whole turn to the darkside hinges on the fact that he believes that Palptine is the Sith Lord and from what he has told him already has this power and wants Sidious to teach it to him so he can save Padme. This is why I feel that AotC, and RotS has just completely destroyed the overall mythos of Darth Vader which inturn devalues the overall saga!!! It's all just complete rubbish and makes no sense, and IMO George didn't even follow the original backstory foundations he had laid the groundwork for inthe OT and their book couunterparts! Sure some scenes that he always talked about doing are in there but the story is BS, and makes no sense!

2-1B
11-05-2005, 06:19 PM
Thanks for making me scroll through that twice. :rolleyes:

Mandalorian Candidat
11-05-2005, 07:05 PM
The entire "turning to evil" thing in the film hinges upon Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi vs his loyalty to Palpatine and the Republic. He's just been told that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic and is all gung-ho on killing them off.

My problem with the whole scene: Hayden C. Just some craptacular acting all the way. I can't blame GLu for the dialogue in this scene cause I think he did a decent job. Hayden just didn't make Anakin's shove over the edge at that pivotal moment believable. It was just a moment of anger (slashing Mace) followed by weak nausea ('these lamb nuggets are great...seconds please'). I had to suspend disbelief at that moment to compensate for the nonconvincement on Hayden's part.

Yeah, the other three Jedi going down was disappointing to me too. I thought a 4-on-1 would have been kick-A.

Jayspawn
11-05-2005, 09:26 PM
You have to remember also that Windu, Tiin, Kolar and Fisto have never seen or fought a Sith Lord before (with the exception of Mace having seen Dooku in AOTC) not to mention the Master. Palpatine advanced faster and closer than the Jedi were expecting.

tagmac
11-06-2005, 11:36 AM
Right before doing his best Eric Cartman impression - I think they could have handled the voice-changing a little better there when Palpy first blasts Mace with lightning.

JimJamBonds
11-06-2005, 11:39 PM
So I don't see it as a knock on Sassy, Kolar, or Mighty Grin Boy but rather a compliment to Charlotte, if that makes any sense ? :p

Yup I agree with ya' Caesar, Charlotte has "mad lightsaber skills yo."

bigred11_11
11-17-2005, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
When Palpatine gives away the fact that he knows far more about the Separatists than he's been letting on, why doesn't Anakin stop and say, "Dude, you're full of crap. I'm just going to take my chances standing trial for cutting Mace in two." Or even just, "Uh, Chancellor, how the hell do you know that?"

If nothing else, when Nute is begging for his life on Mustafar, why doesn't Anakin say, "Woah, man, hold up a second. I'm still going to kill you because you're a d****bag, but what's all this jibber-jabber about you working for Sidious?"

If you read the book, Labrynth of Evil, which is the prequel book to Episode III, you'll find out that Anakin and all the other jedi's already know that the separtists are working for Sidious. That's why Anakin didn't wonder what was going on after Palpatine revealed who he really was, he just swore his allegiance and fulfilled Palpatine's biddings.

JON9000
11-22-2005, 11:14 AM
You have to remember also that Windu, Tiin, Kolar and Fisto have never seen or fought a Sith Lord before (with the exception of Mace having seen Dooku in AOTC) not to mention the Master. Palpatine advanced faster and closer than the Jedi were expecting.
I think that is spot on. I read an early draft of the script the other day, and the fight was described something like this: Palpatine uses an advanced technique never seen before to quickly kill all but Mace.

Von-El
12-26-2005, 02:17 PM
I like Episode III but Anakin's turn seemed so forced.

It is realistic that one will do anything for the one they love. Look at soap operas, some of these prime-time dramas, or even real life events in which women will fake a pregnancy or have a baby with another man just to keep the man they love. The women in these genres and in real life have nothing else to live for other than the man. The child comes second. Same thing happened with Anakin in that Padme came first and the children second.

When turned to the Dark Side, Anakin still had good in him because he loved Padme and thought that what he was doing was for the good of the galaxy. Anakin also fell for the lies Palpatine told him. The Republic also fell for the lies and events set up by Palpatine. They thought that giving more executive powers to Palpatine was a good move for the greater good. On Mustafar, Anakin has tears in his eyes knowing that he has to do bad things to save Padme. He thinks he's doing good--but Padme is all that matters.

But here's the thing that doesn't make any sense to me--

As soon as Anakin realizes that Palpatine is the Sith Lord and orchestrator of all events, why doesn't Anakin realize that Palpatine wanted Padme killed--that he set up events to get her killed?

After learning he killed Padme, why doesn't Anakin/Vader turn on Sidious and say, "you promised me the power to save her; you set up everything which led to her death; now that she's dead, I have no use for you, master". Was there a mechanism in place so Sids can keep Vader in check?

When Anakin is learning of Plagueis, why doesn't Anakin question how Palpatine knows this.

I just cannot stand this dumbing down of Darth Vader who is not just evil but a misguided soul. And the Jedi Council are stupid as hell. They knew the darkside surrounded Palpatine, yet they still sent Anakin to watch him.

Wouldn't common sense have told them that the Sith would have known of the Prophecy of the One who will bring Balance to the Force, also. That is why Palpatine moved quickly to befriend Anakin and then recruit him to the Sith Order. Palp knew that converting Anakin would prevent him from fulfilling the prophecy.
In ROTJ, Palps wanted Luke to kill Vader. Surely, Luke and Leia's continued lives weren't to be a prophecy too.