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The 'Xir
11-05-2005, 03:04 PM
This is a response to another thread I made, and it was kind of off topic so I made this thread so people could debate this in and of itself!

I have always said that I think AotC is the worst Star Wars movie and that RotS did it's best to recover from the downward spiral AotC started but fell very short. Here is the main reaosn why I think this story blows:


Remember the line (following Palpy telling Anakin to go to these places), "Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme."


I'm sooooo glad someone brought this up, 'cause it's one of the many things that has been bugging me ever since I saw the film. I really don't like Anakins turn to the Dark Side, the only thing that makes it viable is his love for Padme and wanting to protect her and that's it, everything else is complete BS and crappy story telling!

Especially with the quote that TDV brought up above, and this other exchange between the two in the movie(taken from RotS Script):

ANAKIN: Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her. I won't let her die. I want the power to stop death.

PALPATINE: To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

WHAT?!!!

The whole movie Palptine is telling Anakin that he already has this power:

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

ANAKIN: What happened to him?

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

ANAKIN: Is it possible to learn this power?

PALPATINE: Not from a Jedi.

AGAIN:

ANAKIN: How do you know the ways of the Force?

PALPATINE: My mentor taught me everything about the Force . . . even the nature of the dark side.

They stop.

ANAKIN: You know the dark side?!?

PALPATINE: Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force. Be careful of the Jedi, Anakin. (pausing) They fear you. In time they will destroy you. Let me train you.

ANAKIN: I won't be a pawn in your political game. The Jedi are my family.

PALPATINE: Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.

ANAKIN: What did you say?

PALPATINE: Use my knowledge, I beg you . . .

ANAKIN: You're a Sith Lord!

The point of all this is, IS that Palptine is stating to Anakin that the power exists, and that he knows what it is, and if Anakin joins him and submits to the Dark Side that Palptine will teach it to him and save his wife. However, now with everything we know above, Palpatine then admits that he doesn't know this knowledge, AGAIN:

PALPATINE: To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

So why would Anakin join him if he might be able to learn this power! I mean if only one had achieved it before isn't it possible that they might fail and Padme will die anyways. Anakins whole point, his whole turn to the darkside hinges on the fact that he believes that Palptine is the Sith Lord and from what he has told him already has this power and wants Sidious to teach it to him so he can save Padme. This is why I feel that AotC, and RotS has just completely destroyed the overall mythos of Darth Vader which inturn devalues the overall saga!!! It's all just complete rubbish and makes no sense, and IMO George didn't even follow the original backstory foundations he had laid the groundwork for inthe OT and their book couunterparts! Sure some scenes that he always talked about doing are in there but the story is BS, and makes no sense!

Turbowars
11-05-2005, 03:13 PM
Dude, have you always tried to suck the fun out of things? It's a movie bro.

To answer your question "So why would Anakin join him if he might be able to learn this power!" Well it was a chance. If he didn't sign up there would be no chance. Damn why are we even talking about this?

The 'Xir
11-05-2005, 03:33 PM
1) No I've never tried to deny the fun in anything.(I think George did that, but sometimes it just takes on a life of it's own)
2) I used to be a complete GL butt kisser and everthing he did was Godlike, or atleast made sense! Even all the inconsistences in the OT I remember arguing on this site why other people always had to bring up these ridiculous points and why couldn't they just enjoy the movies for what they are. But I argued that because everytime someone brought up a point of what they thought was wrong with the OT or TPM I was able to come up with a plausible response; but with AotC and RotS I can't do that, because they make no sense!!! And I guess I have joined the ranks of Stilla and others who are looking for a sensible movie, and good story telling within the franchise that I atleast have grown up with my entire life since the age of 4 when I first saw ANH in theatres. So for me No it's not Just Another Moivie! I love the original story, I love the characters, and know everything about the story. After TPM I thought George knew what he was doing and defended him to the end, but it looks like I was wrong, and I'm ****ed about it!

Stilla, you are wise beyond your years, and I submit myself to your dark but humble teachings! ;) :crazed: :D

trandoshan666
11-05-2005, 04:33 PM
Anakins whole point, his whole turn to the darkside hinges on the fact that he believes that Palptine is the Sith Lord and from what he has told him already has this power and wants Sidious to teach it to him so he can save Padme.
Anakin's torn between his love for Padme and his allegiance to the Jedi. He wants to keep Palpatine alive so Palps can teach him this element of the dark side that will allow Anakin to save his wife. In that sense, we see him being seduced by the dark side. His actual turn to the dark side, though, stems from the role he plays in Mace's death and the subsequent realization that he cannot take back that moment. That's when Anakin fully pledges himself to Palpatine and his teachings. It's also when Palps reveals that he doesn't really have the know-how that he had claimed to have. But it doesn't really matter, because Anakin doesn't really have anywhere else to go at that point.

Rocketboy
11-05-2005, 04:41 PM
Keep in mind that nowhere in the movie does Palps say that Darth Plagueis was his master (yes, in the book he does, but that's EU and doesn't count).
All Palpatine says is that Plagueis' apprentice killed Plagueis in his sleep and that Palp's master taught him everything he knew about the dark side.
It is entirely possible that Plaguies' apprentice was Palp's master.
Palpatine knows that this ability exists, but he never says he actually has that power. I believe that he also knows how powerful Anakin will become and he is only using Anakin to re-discover that power for his own wants and needs.

So why would Anakin join him if he might be able to learn this power!For the simple fact that he MIGHT be able to save her. Anakin sees that as his only option.

I mean if only one had achieved it before isn't it possible that they might fail and Padme will die anyways.Yes, but that was a chance he was willing to take.

2-1B
11-05-2005, 06:08 PM
This is why I started a thread awhile back about how these are different issues . . . saving others from death and living as an immortal are 2 different things to me. Anakin doesn't care about living eternal, he cares about saving Padme from imminent death. And by the way he had that power all along, all he had to do was stay the course and follow Yoda's advice, and Padme wouldn't have died in the first place. :)

That, and Charlotte was giving him some BS on the side, I believe, and as already stated by others it's too late for Anners to go back and start over. At least, that is, until Lukey Pooh comes along and makes him realize he can do one last good deed. lol

And Xir I say this respectfully, because I've said it before and don't want to seem like I'm hammering you on it, but I don't understand HOW you can describe ROTS as "pure rubbish" while loving TPM ? :thumbsup: lol

Anybody else feel the way 'Xir does, that TPM is good while the next two are bad ? :confused:

EDIT: another thought I'd like to add, the issue of whether Charlotte was BSing Anakin ios purely speculation . . . he DID tell Anakin how to become strong enough to save Padme: kill Jedi and the Separatists. Would that have worked ? Well, we'll never know because he effed it up and broke Padme's heart in the process.

Rogue II
11-05-2005, 11:38 PM
Anybody else feel the way 'Xir does, that TPM is good while the next two are bad ? :confused:

Yeah, I do. At first, I didn't thing TPM was all that great, but after watching it a few more times, I grew to like it (but not as much as any of the OT films.) The more I watched ATOC, the less I liked it. Actually, I'll say I like Zam Wessel chase scene, but that's about it. Now that I've seen ROTS a second time, my opinion hasn't improved. Sure, it is a bit better than ATOC, but that's not saying much.

I try not to overanalyze the movies or nit-pick the continuity, they all have their flaws (especially ROTJ). Other than Ewen McGreggor, the combination of bad dialogue, bad jokes, and bad cgi turned me off to the films. I suppose one of the main problems I have with PT is the Anakin character. I don't know if it is Lucas' writing or Hayden's acting (since I haven't seen any of his other films.) Hopefully, George Lucas will do the world a favor and never film a love scene ever again.

While watching ROTS the other night, my wife made a comment on how fake some of the cgi looked during the Palpatine rescue scene. More specifically, when Dooku tossed Obi-Wan and dropped that platform on him. She's not that big of a Star Wars fan and doesn't usually comment on things like that. Considering how many hours they put into the special effects, you would think they would turn out better than the claymation Luke riding the tauntaun in ESB. The battle scenes in ATOC and ROTS are very jumpy. It is like they wanted to stuff all the different aspects of the battle in, without spending more than 3 seconds on any one thing.

I don't get why everyone thinks the PT films are so great, but then again, there are tons of things I don't understand.

JediTricks
11-06-2005, 01:48 AM
Anybody else feel the way 'Xir does, that TPM is good while the next two are bad ?I wouldn't say I think TPM is "good", but I think it's the best of the prequels, even if from me that's still faint praise. Not to turn this into a "why TPM is better" thread, but the short version is that even though there's a lot of stuff I don't like, it's the most Star Warsy of the prequels, more of the SW magic (the feeling, not the Force powers).

JEDIpartner
11-06-2005, 10:18 AM
To quote Rocco Ritchie in his mum's latest documentary: "Don't talk about this!!! What the heck are you talking about???!!!!!"

Turbowars
11-06-2005, 11:50 AM
TPM is the best out of the 3? :shocked: Now I know you all are on something. :yes: My wife and I sat down about 3 weeks ago and watched TPM and It was hard for me to sit through the whole thing. Now there's parts in AOTC and ROTS that I feel the same way, but there's just too much dumb @ss crap going on in TPM.

Devo
11-06-2005, 03:15 PM
Trandoshan666 and Rocketboy almost had me convinced against The Xir's post but then I remembered - this all hedges on whether or not you believe in the Anakin/padme romance which I most certainly do not. It completely lacked credibility from the off so how am I supposed to believe in the seeming fact, as ROTS has it, that Anakin turns to the darkside because of how he loves Padme?


The Off-topic part of this thread is more fascinating to me. TPM better than AOTC and ROTS??? I'm surprised anyone at all has chimed in to agree with The Xir on that count.

The only good things about TPM were some Qui-gon scenes, the lightsabre duel, the score and Darth Maul (some people wanted him to have more lines - Lucas was writing the dialogue!!!) - things which were of no consequence to the grand story scheme as laid down in the OT. Qui-gon doesn't exist according to the OT, the duel is broken up by crappy scenes involving Padme and Jar Jar Binks and Darth Maul is a one-off - there, gone, never mentioned again. The film is based on a planet never heard of before, events never mentioned before, featuring never-heard-of-before characters in major roles. Known characters like Obi-wan, yoda and the droids are kicked to the sidelines. Other important people like Bail Organa and the Lars don't appear at all. Important things like the meeting of Anakin and Obi-wan are treated as incidental - I don't think they even exchange dialogue. It was just a waste of a film. Lucas has spoken of how most of the story was in the final prequel film as if that should make people view The Phantom Menace in some new improved light....??? Sorry doesn't work that way. If he knew in advance it would turn out that way he should have adjusted his plan to ensure that each film contained pertinent story points rather than a disproportionate amount all happening in one film. It could have been done.

I'm by no means a great defender of AOTC and ROTS but for me they're far more watchable than TMP. Consider the following:

Attack of the Clones:

-Obi-wan finally takes his rightful centre-stage role
-The clones appear - those wars we heard about might happen afterall!!
-Asteroid sequence - delete Daniel Logan and its a visual/aural treat
-largescale jedi fighting - even if we used to think they'd be fighting against the clones
-Count Dooku - if Alec Guinness had been the bad guy he'd be Dooku, Christopher Lee makes the most of a small role
-Battle of Geonosis - a large portion of the film with great action - sweet relief after the nonsensical and embarrassing Anakin/padme 'romance'. And its all focussed - theres no cutting to Jar Jar Binks here. Could have done without threepio's 'wacky' antics near the beginning though.
-good final moments including an atmospheric meeting between the successful Count Dooku and Darth Sidious, Palpatine watching his armies deploying to the accompaniment of the Imperial march and a wedding scene which is just fine if you pretend that the romance is believable
-great new vehicles like the jedi starfighter and Republic gunship
-another good musical theme in Across the stars

Revenge of the Sith:

-some good banter between Anakin and Obi-wan - I like 'this time we'll take him together'....'i was about to say that'. A pity it is nowhere to be seen in the preceding 2 films where it actually belonged.
-more lightsabre action than any previous film
-Mace Windu shown in a lightsabre duel - if you forgive sam jackson his poor acting in these films simply because he is Sam Jackson then this is great
-Yoda Versus The Emperor - a fight we always wanted to see, surely. Apart from some cringeinducing lines from Yoda it didn't let me down.
-Anakin versus Obi-wan - OK to be honest this fight did let me down a bit but I'm willing to admit wrong expectations on my part. But the fight is there, it was always the most important part of the backstory to the OT. Its exciting for that reason at the least
-the 'you were the chosen one!' scene. If you put your fingers in your ears when Hayden says 'you underestimate my power' in a bad way this part might just be exactly as you hoped and imagined it. Ewan McGregor's best acting in a star wars film and good scoring combine to almost make you forget how poorly realised the Anakin/Obi-wan relationship actually was - and thats very high praise indeed.
-Ian McDiarmid - best actor in the prequel trilogy. When the trailer came out I found his line delivery odd but I've since come to like it. And unlike others I loved his OTT performance as Sidious/The Emperor.
-Finally some vehicle continuity!!! The Republic Gunship appearing in more than one film SHOCKER!!!! Is it possible the prequels at last have a signature vehicle?? How did they resist the urge to needlessly redesign it or replace it with another new vehicle like they did with just about every other ship from one prequel to the next.
-More great scoring from John Williams with Battle of the heroes, the music for the jedi purge (miraculously drawing sympathy for the otherwise flat jedi) and a few other excellent tracks

One huge crime committed by ROTS is Franken-Vader. For most of us this was one scene which they couldn't...wouldn't f**k up.....and they did. It was a supreme let down and an embarrassment, resonating in your head for all the wrong reasons after the credits have finished rolling. Had it been done right I wouldn't be so quick to agree with the school of thought who believe Vader should never have been seen in Episode III. But not even this could make ROTS worse than TPM, not for the vast volume of crap TPM is filled with.

Daz
11-06-2005, 09:20 PM
Devo Count Dooku - if Alec Guinness had been the bad guy he'd be Dooku, Christopher Lee makes the most of a small role


The problem I have with Dooku is Lucas always maintained that the reason the duel in ANH was so slow was that Vader was half machine and that Obi Wan was an old man , why then did he decide to undermine this rationalisation by making Dooku (who if anything looks ten to fifteen years older then Obi wan in ANH) leap around with the agility of an olympic gymnast, kinda shot yourself in the foot there George.



Devo good final moments including an atmospheric meeting between the successful Count Dooku and Darth Sidious, Palpatine watching his armies deploying to the accompaniment of the Imperial march

Yeh shame they didn't happen at the end of episode one that way we would have had an entire episode to explore the clone wars and to establish the bond of brotherhood between Ani & Obers that would be tragically sundered in the third film. Its almost like he said they know the story so why bother writing it( in hindsight I almost wish he had followed this line of thinking through from the beginning and spared me six hours, 3 films worth of soul crushing incompetance the likes of which I hope I never have to endure again.


Devo a wedding scene which is just fine if you pretend that the romance is believable


Which I can't, the only upside is that Lucas spared us the vows and set it to music, we really dodged a bullet there:grin:


Devo another good musical theme in Across the stars

Agreed , too good in fact for the farcical stalking it accompanies and which it is meant to enhance.


Devo
some good banter between Anakin and Obi-wan - I like 'this time we'll take him together'....'i was about to say that'. A pity it is nowhere to be seen in the preceding 2 films where it actually belonged



It was banter Devo I wouldn't define it as good just long overdue( for good banter see Han & Leia flirting/fighting on the Death star in ANH and practically all of ESB )




Devo more lightsabre action than any previous film


Problem is he seemed to use them as a crutch for whenever he got writers block(which judging by the quality of the films was 90% of the time) he'd just bung in another one.


Devo Ian McDiarmid - best actor in the prequel trilogy. When the trailer came out I found his line delivery odd but I've since come to like it. And unlike others I loved his OTT performance as Sidious/The Emperor.


Would probably have to agree with you on the best actor catagory he did seem to cope better with the preponderance of green screen work then any one else(must be all that theatre experience). The subtlety he brought to the role of Palpatine was a breath of fresh air compared to the rest of the cast who almost without exception seem to have graduated from the Joey Tribiani school of acting(See Haydens angry face in Rots .... hilarious) shame then that he throws it all away with a performance so OTT in the final 30 minutes that it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. (was the emperor on qualudes in Empire and Return or something)

On a seperate note Am I the only person who thought the hooded Palpatine looked like a bloody Jawa with those stupid glowing eyes.

Tonysmo
11-07-2005, 12:56 AM
The films were horrible. all three of them. the only thing that made it Star Wars were the addition of Lightsabers.

I loved the orginals. and yeah, there were scenes in the prequils that were pretty cool. but to me it seems as Lucas had an agenda to finish off this tale, and only gave it 20% when it came to putting thought behind it.


The ROTS scene where the rescue Palpy.. disturbing. :(

Mace Windu in all three movies.. disturbing. Jedi dont act like that.


I could sit an rip this movie apart, but what hasnt already been said.. :(



bring on King Kong.. lets see what Peter Jackson can do with this classic..

JediTricks
11-07-2005, 08:35 PM
I do agree with you Xir that having Anakin fall in league with the Sith to save Padme only to immediately be bait-and-switched really undermines the whole point of Anakin's fall, which is supposed to be the main thread of the prequels as a whole. It's not as if Anakin signed a Sith contract and then got trapped afterwards, he could just as easily have said Palps killed Mace and was now under arrest, saving his own butt and making himself look good to the people -- we've already seen Anakin lie about doing something Dark Side-esque and then go back to the Jedi like everything's all good, so this wouldn't be out of character for Ani. It just seemed so lame to have him get sucked in and stay there.

What this boils down to for me is that ROTS is incredibly unsatisfying because, bottom line, we get a Vader that ends up not standing for anything. We're not shown Ani/Vader believing in Palpatine's cause as he has no problem sending the geezer to prison to stand trial, Ani/Vader doesn't seem to believe he is a giant striding through a world of ants or feeling something like "the Jedi are narrow-minded fools who have squandered their power and have followed a path to destruction, they don't deserve to use the Force anymore", in the end Vader has burned all his bridges - saving Padme and the Jedi order - and is left with nothing and stands for nothing at all. Hell, even Darth Maul, Palpatine's pitbull, had a burning hatred for the Jedi, it wasn't much but at least he was standing FOR something there, yet Vader does not.

Rogue II
11-07-2005, 09:02 PM
... in the end Vader has burned all his bridges...

...and what was left of his body.:D

I'm so glad I'm not the only fan who thinks the PT isn't all that great. With all the "great" reviews ROTS had been getting, I was seriously begining to think I saw a different movie than everyone else.

tagmac
11-07-2005, 10:38 PM
The problem I have with Dooku is Lucas always maintained that the reason the duel in ANH was so slow was that Vader was half machine and that Obi Wan was an old man , why then did he decide to undermine this rationalisation by making Dooku (who if anything looks ten to fifteen years older then Obi wan in ANH) leap around with the agility of an olympic gymnast, kinda shot yourself in the foot there George.

Movie reason: Dooku was drawing on the Dark Side - same reason Palpatine was able to do flips and such during his fight with Mace. Also, Dooku had been fighting during the wars, and was not "rusty" like Obi-Wan, who had been living a hermit's life and likely hadn't fought since his battle with Anakin.

REAL reason :D - the technology didn't exist in 1977 to make Obi-Wan do flips and fight Vader at a faster pace (albeit slower than in their prime). Fighting was limited to what Prowse and Alec Guiness were physically able to do in real life.

The 'Xir
11-08-2005, 10:26 AM
I do agree with you Xir that having Anakin fall in league with the Sith to save Padme only to immediately be bait-and-switched really undermines the whole point of Anakin's fall, which is supposed to be the main thread of the prequels as a whole. It's not as if Anakin signed a Sith contract and then got trapped afterwards, he could just as easily have said Palps killed Mace and was now under arrest, saving his own butt and making himself look good to the people -- we've already seen Anakin lie about doing something Dark Side-esque and then go back to the Jedi like everything's all good, so this wouldn't be out of character for Ani. It just seemed so lame to have him get sucked in and stay there.


Exactly my point JT, ThanX!

The sad thing for me, was as I stated this saga has been part of my entire life, and the first time I sat down to watch RotS in theatres I had no emotional reaction to it what-so-ever. And if not balling my eyes out, I should have atleast been riding an emotional high, and I felt nothing towards it!

Also, as I have stated in the past, the main reason I like TPM is that it's just an introduction to the prequels and really doesn't mess with the "Story" that I was expecting to get. AotC started this disaster storyline that George in his older age felt he should tell now, and RotS was just the victim having to following AotC leads. TPM also has that feeling("starwars feeling") and spirit of adventure much like ANH started us on so long ago. People look to much towards JJ, and find it easier to blame him, istead of understanding his role in the film. Geroge was just a whimp by listening to the public too much and not sticking by this character. He did the same thing(betrayed) to Padme in Rots, and thats another reason RotS rots!!!

2-1B
11-08-2005, 11:03 AM
But Xir, TPM destroys the integrity of the OT by pushing Obi-Wan aside for Qui-Gon and then breaking continuity about Yoda being Obi-Wan's Master. And don't forget the stupid midichlorians that were added in.

The 'Xir
11-08-2005, 12:30 PM
But Xir, TPM destroys the integrity of the OT by pushing Obi-Wan aside for Qui-Gon and then breaking continuity about Yoda being Obi-Wan's Master. And don't forget the stupid midichlorians that were added in.


Yeah, I have to admit the whole Qui-Gon thing isn't exactly what I had in mind either, that did(IMO) come out of nowhere. So that is a small part of TPM, just like when I say I didn't get the story out of Aotc and RoTS that I wanted, that I could do without. However, It can still be easily explained away, or easily dismissed as insignificant information to Luke, seeing as how Ben knows Yoda is still alive, and actually did recieve training form Yoda when he was a youngling padawan. Besides, it's not like Ben can send Luke to Qui-Gon for his training, ya know? Becasue he is in there though, Lucas again missed an opportunity to expound on these points, by not including Qui-Gon's spirit at the end of RotS.
Also, didn't Lucas tell us that by the end of AotC or RotS that we would understand why some dead bodies disappear and others don't? I know we can make the leap with what's given to us, but are we to assume that Anakins body isn't in the vader suit at the end of RotJ, and that somehow in a crash course, Yoda or Ben taught him how to transform himself into the Force and still keep his physical Identity? We now know the Emperor didn't teach him this because, the sith only achieved imortality on the mortal/physical plain.

However, on your other point. If you remember correctly back when I used to faithfully defend Lucas on his decision making within TPM, I never minded the Midichlorian aspect to the Force! I always argued and still do, that the Midichlorians are just a type of tool to tap into the Force and not the Force itself! I always used the analogy of church. A Church is the tool that we use to better communicte with God(for those that believe in him atleast), and in no way demystifies God, like some try to argue the Midichlorians do for the Force. (sidenote: ever notice in all these years that I always Capitalize the F in Force! And I don't even believe in God. Just someting to make you go Hhmmmmn ;) ) Unfortuantely I don't think I believe in Star Wars anymore, atleast not Lucas. :(

2-1B
11-08-2005, 01:18 PM
Plus, don't forget that Yoda instructs Ben on the afterlife communing thing, too. :thumbsup:

Anakin's body is burned in ROTJ and somehow Ben and Yoda help him appear to Luke. How, I don't know exactly but it's a fairy tale ending so I'm cool with it. :cool:

I'm GLAD Qui-Gon isn't a spirit in ROTS, if anything it would lend more to the argument that Qui-Gon is out of place in regard to the OT. If his ghost was visible in ROTS, then he should have appeared in the OT as well. ;)

The 'Xir
11-08-2005, 01:34 PM
Plus, don't forget that Yoda instructs Ben on the afterlife communing thing, too. :thumbsup:

Very good point!!! Ya see, it's small details like that, that will help me finally appreciate AotC and RotS, but I ain't promising that it's gonna happen over night! ;)

Another thing I like that I thought of while debating this in this thread, is the tone poemesque/repeating themes scene of Anakins' immolation scene in RotS buring away the good, ties into RotJ's funeral pyre buring away the evil. Nice Touch!

AotC, and RotS still Rot though IMO, like I said it aint gonna happen over night! :D




I'm GLAD Qui-Gon isn't a spirit in ROTS, if anything it would lend more to the argument that Qui-Gon is out of place in regard to the OT. If his ghost was visible in ROTS, then he should have appeared in the OT as well. ;)

Come On! If anything you know the one thing that we all can have faith in George with, is special edition editing. :yes: :D

JimJamBonds
11-08-2005, 01:35 PM
I'm GLAD Qui-Gon isn't a spirit in ROTS, if anything it would lend more to the argument that Qui-Gon is out of place in regard to the OT. If his ghost was visible in ROTS, then he should have appeared in the OT as well. ;)

Don't worry it will be in there with a future saga release.

2-1B
11-08-2005, 02:13 PM
No it won't, they didn't even want him in ROTS so why put him in the OT ? :confused:

Xir, the immolation scene is also a tip of the cap to Coppola's Godfather Baptism sequence.

JediTricks
11-08-2005, 02:38 PM
...and what was left of his body.:D I came }---{ that close to making a very similar joke, about one of the bridges burning him back. :p


I'm so glad I'm not the only fan who thinks the PT isn't all that great. With all the "great" reviews ROTS had been getting, I was seriously begining to think I saw a different movie than everyone else.I definitely know the feeling, I felt it very strongly on AOTC when everybody was going wild for it and it just seemed so off to me.


The sad thing for me, was as I stated this saga has been part of my entire life, and the first time I sat down to watch RotS in theatres I had no emotional reaction to it what-so-ever. And if not balling my eyes out, I should have atleast been riding an emotional high, and I felt nothing towards it!I felt EXACTLY the same way when I saw it! I didn't think anybody else here felt that way, I totally got nothing out of it, the experience of first watching it felt empty and flat to me.

rbaumhauer
11-09-2005, 01:05 AM
I felt EXACTLY the same way when I saw it! I didn't think anybody else here felt that way, I totally got nothing out of it, the experience of first watching it felt empty and flat to me.

JT, you certainly weren't the only one - I'm sure there are many more just like us who, for many reasons, just don't feel any need to discuss it. Honestly, I'm having a great deal of difficulty mustering the interest to say anything about "Star Wars" any more. It's been a huge part of my life since I was 10 years old, and I just don't really care any more.

My reaction to RotS the only time I saw it was pretty simple - "well, at least it's finally over". George had one last opportunity to demonstrate that he still had some small spark of the inspiration that brought us ANH and ESB and (not surprisingly, after TPM and AOTC) failed in almost every way. I walked out of the theater with no interest in seeing the movie again (I haven't bought the DVD), no interest in buying more action figures (I try to make exceptions for really cool stuff, but I still fight the urge, every day, to cancel my Astromech 10-pack preorder at BBTS), and no real interest in discussing it any more.

"Star Wars", for me, is down to being two great movies that I liked when I was a kid, one mediocre movie that seemed okay when I was 16 and hasn't aged well, and three movies that should never have been made.

Rick

Jayspawn
11-09-2005, 10:16 AM
I think The 'Xir missed the whole point of ROTS.

stillakid
11-09-2005, 04:04 PM
JT, you certainly weren't the only one - I'm sure there are many more just like us who, for many reasons, just don't feel any need to discuss it. Honestly, I'm having a great deal of difficulty mustering the interest to say anything about "Star Wars" any more. It's been a huge part of my life since I was 10 years old, and I just don't really care any more.

My reaction to RotS the only time I saw it was pretty simple - "well, at least it's finally over". George had one last opportunity to demonstrate that he still had some small spark of the inspiration that brought us ANH and ESB and (not surprisingly, after TPM and AOTC) failed in almost every way. I walked out of the theater with no interest in seeing the movie again (I haven't bought the DVD), no interest in buying more action figures (I try to make exceptions for really cool stuff, but I still fight the urge, every day, to cancel my Astromech 10-pack preorder at BBTS), and no real interest in discussing it any more.

"Star Wars", for me, is down to being two great movies that I liked when I was a kid, one mediocre movie that seemed okay when I was 16 and hasn't aged well, and three movies that should never have been made.

Rick

I "ditto" just about every one of your sentiments exactly, except for the toy part. I still have a fairly steady stream of figures coming into my home, but seriously, only because of the graciousness of local friends who pick up some extras and ask if I'd like them. I take them because I feel some innate need to "finish" the collection...I blame this on my incomplete Kenner collection years ago and my desire to not repeat history no matter how lame the source material is. I mean, I'd still like to get the original DROIDS and EWOKS figures, but those cartoons were pretty lame too.

And when I really think about it, whenever I picture a future display with all my Clones, they aren't in any Prequel diorama, but rather proudly set up in a grand Emperor's Arrival scene along with the cadre of OT soldiers and troopers. While obviously not "canon," the spectacle of diversity is a sight to see in my mind's eye. :)

However, aside from that, I agree that ROTS pretty much solidified the yawn factor when it comes to what the Prequels had to offer. It answered nothing, it tied nothing together, and by and large, was a fairly predictable sequel to two other mediocre to poor movies as well. Any true further discussion (or investment of thought for the matter) would be tantimount to whining for whining's sake. So we cast the Prequels off to drift among what remains of the die-hard fanbase and the rest of us cherry-pick the elements that are worthy of continued attention.

I'm sure that I'll be receiving a copy of ROTS under the tree this year and I'll probably watch it with my kids a couple of times. But that excitement that George should have delivered, like he did so many years ago, never happened this time around, with these three films. Some see fit to excuse George from culpability and lay blame at the feet of our age or our unwillingness to cut him some slack. Whether that's true or not, the fact remains that so many of our generation looked up to the screen again, expecting the same kind of quality and wonder that so inspired us long ago...but our collective gaze was shunned away, with nary an apology from the creator. Perhaps one day, an enterprising young filmmaker will find a way to recreate the mythos that Star Wars once held in the collective mind of society, but until that time, we will have to look backward, to the past, some 20 years hence and remember what honest storytelling used to be.

Phantom-like Menace
11-12-2005, 11:23 AM
People look to much towards JJ, and find it easier to blame him, istead of understanding his role in the film. Geroge was just a whimp by listening to the public too much and not sticking by this character.

I'm not certain myself what his role was, though I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on what it was. I am curious though if that role is so important it justified Jar-Jar's being in the movie, and if the role is that important, could it not have been filled by any other character. In my view, Jar-Jar isn't a serious enough creation to hang over a camera to induce two-year-old children to smile for pictures. He was so out of place in the movies, I wouldn't even want him anywhere near the Ewok cartoon.

That said, Jar-Jar is 99.9% of why most people disliked TPM. As I've let all of the movies sink in, TPM had quite a bit going for it.

Though I seem to be in a minority, I am extremely fond of the Qui-Gon character. He's the one character who came anywhere close to doing everything right. Now, sure some would say he brought about the death of the Jedi by forcing Anakin's training. Well, Qui-Gon's goal wasn't the survival of the Jedi, it was the balancing of the Force, which wouldn't have happened otherwise. Knowing the great price, Qui-Gon would probably still make all of the choices he made, because he is a servant of the Force, not merely the Jedi. I have no problem whatsoever in justifying Obi-Wan's OT line about Yoda training him, because as has been stated, Yoda trained Obi-Wan before Qui-Gon.

This movie also had Darth Maul who is immediately lambasted for not being as complex as Darth Vader. Well, yeah, I mean Lucas didn't want a villain he'd need to build six movies around. Ray Park looked evil and dangerous as Maul, and when he lit off the other end of his 'saber and the Duel of the Fates began, my childhood momentarily forgave me.

Finally, Jedi and Sith alike were competent in TPM. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were almost casual in their massive skill, and aside from the very end, Darth Maul was without fault in his ability. AOTC seems to forget that Obi-Wan knows how to use a 'saber, and aside from Yoda AOTC and ROTS show the other Jedi to be quite incapable.

As for AOTC and ROTS, Lucas made one of his greatest errors in not giving us the Clone Wars at the end of the first movie. You don't have enough story to fill up three movies? You want to show someone's dark side in a manner that makes the viewer think it might be justified? Showing how someone acts in the heat of a war, what compromises they make so others won't suffer--damn George! The blockade of Naboo could have touched off the clone wars right there. As it was, if Lucas didn't have enough to fill out three movies, why were important things like Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin's life beyond death barely mentioned while we had what seemed like forty-five minutes devoted to Naboo's undersea foodchain just to get "There's always a bigger fish" as our payoff?!?

Lucas made his second mistake in making Anakin look incredibly inept. Without any proof to back up his ego, Anakin just looks foolish. The closest Anakin comes to showing his skill is in the Zam Wessel chase, and Obi-Wan shows better how it's done in the flight from Jango. Anakin never proved himself to the audience and his credibility suffered.

The second biggest problem I had with ROTS is when Anakin cuts off Mace's hand. An Anakin/Mace fight was one thing that had to happen in my opinion, and it could have been done in place of the fight between Palpatine and Mace and Posse. How much better would that have gone if Anakin had merely blocked Mace's lightsaber and a fight ensued? It wouldn't have just been cool, but Anakin would have shown his skill if he beat Mace in single combat. It also would have strengthened the fight between Yoda and Palpatine.

The biggest problem with ROTS is the duel. After the Episode I duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan just weren't doing it for me. They had some good lightsaber stuff all through the movie but it was inconsistent. Lave surfing on droids and platforms? What part of their programming covered ferrying melee combatants through a fight. And I'm still not sure what I think of Obi-Wan just walking away from a burning Anakin, but I have no strong feelings on whether or not he was wrong or right to leave him.

And the biggest problem shared by all of the prequel movies, including (possibly especially since it introduced the original computer generated abomination) TPM. George Lucas set out to direct a story with the sequel trilogy, and he didn't have the tools to do it. This grand story drove the creation of novel technologies purely by the force of will of this dream. Later, George Lucas wanted to use a bunch of technology and this technology led to the production of the prequels. I can't decide whether the prequels were obligation and not love or whether the prequels were just Lucas's sugar high from realizing technology had made him a kid in a candy shop.

Honorable mention goes to the fact that George Lucas felt like inbreeding everyone's story together. I didn't need to know everyone was born, lived and died on Tatooine. When Darth Vader told Boba Fett not to disintegrate Han in the sequels, I saw no reason to justify that line by discovering that Boba Fett and Darth Vader held each other on cold nights while Boba Fett disintegrated people. Come on, if I hired one of the galaxy's most well known bounty hunters, it stands to reason he might be well known to disintegrate people, so if I wanted my target alive, I might tell him not to disintegrate them.

That all said, I'll grant TPM is better than AOTC, which had little to recommend it beyond Natalie Portman in leather. However I won't place TPM above ROTS, despite the fact that I agree with most of the complaints, including the line that began this thread. I know, not especially reasonable, but there you have it. I liked ROTS more than ROTJ, and I liked TPM almost as much as ROTJ: AOTC, TPM, ROTJ, ROTS, ANH, TESB.

JON9000
11-12-2005, 01:35 PM
The second biggest problem I had with ROTS is when Anakin cuts off Mace's hand. An Anakin/Mace fight was one thing that had to happen in my opinion, and it could have been done in place of the fight between Palpatine and Mace and Posse. How much better would that have gone if Anakin had merely blocked Mace's lightsaber and a fight ensued? It wouldn't have just been cool, but Anakin would have shown his skill if he beat Mace in single combat. It also would have strengthened the fight between Yoda and Palpatine.

Sorry, I loved that bit, and I disagree with your reasoning. I thought the Mace / Palps duel was handled in way that perfectly preserved the "ultimate bad-a##" hierarchy. Mace is the most powerful of the Jedi, and Yoda the wisest. That's why Mace was able to get the best of Palps while Yoda could only fight him to a draw. Mace had Palpy dead to rights, but Anakin came along and cheated. What would have happened had Anakin merely blocked? Palps would have been able to blast the hell out of Mace anyway. Assume Palps was incapacitated- if Anakin had been able to beat Mace when Palps hadn't, why would Obi-wan be sent to handle Anakin (the more powerful) while Yoda went to deal with Palps (the less powerful)?

The truth is that Anakin was not yet as powerful as Mace, Palps, or Yoda. He was stronger than Obi-wan and Dooku, but his eventual lack of discipline caused him to lose to Obi-wan. I don't know why you are fixated on proving Anakin to be the strongest dude in the galaxy at this point, but it just ain't the story.

The 'Xir
11-12-2005, 02:50 PM
I think The 'Xir missed the whole point of ROTS.

Oh please, enlighten me! Personallly, I think I understand exactly what George DID, I'm saying that I don't agree with what he did, and It's my belief that he betrayed his own(original)story and characters. However, If you think you can clarify the "point" for me, I am open to all views and understandings.

But maybe this will clarify some of my points for you..:


I'm not certain myself what his role was, though I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on what it was.I am curious though if that role is so important it justified Jar-Jar's being in the movie, and if the role is that important, could it not have been filled by any other character. In my view, Jar-Jar isn't a serious enough creation to hang over a camera to induce two-year-old children to smile for pictures.

I hope one thing that will help, and the way I've always looked at it, is as from a writing standpoint. First, let me say that Jar Jar isn't an important character! Literally he would be considered a secondary character, and as secondary characters often do; he plays important roles within the movie itself that lend qualities to move the story along, or help/deter the main characters story arc within the movie.
What's Jar Jars' pupose?:
JJ is first and formost from a literary standpoint(or as a mythic archetype), "The Fool". Just as you stated he is nothing more than eyecandy to attract 2year olds. That is just the superficial or instant impact the character has on a story. However, "The Fool" has a very historically structured guideline(one that Lucas should know very well as the proclaimed student of Campbell that he says he is), which inturn usally shows that character as being one of the most indepth characters within any genre. Persoanlly I recognized all the classic qualities within Jar Jar from my initial viewings of TPM. On the superficial side; funny/comical, clumsy, classless(socially) and weak. On the depth side of the character all the building blocks of this archetype were also there; honesty, kind-heartedness, trustworthy and friendship. "The Fool" is the manifestation of the Clown in a royal setting. Since no one can possibly take a fool seriously at the physical level, he is allowed entry into the most powerful of circles. While entertaining (in this case)the Queen with outrageous behavior, the fool is actually communicating messages that the Queen and her inner circle trusts.

The Problem is, as I have stated in above posts, that George didn't stick by this characters' writing guidlines and didn't develop him to his full potential, and probably why no one "gets it"/him. Even as much as George pulled back on the character within AotC, as a result of public scrutiny, there was still enough there to develop and complete the caracter for RotS. the example being, Padmes' trust in JJ to represent her in the Senate is enough to then complete the characters pupose in RotS. Although, The Fool usually doesn't betray the main character the way JJ does in AotC, but when he does it's usually due to his superficial qualities getting in the way. However, when this happens the Fool then shows the depth of his qualities, by redeeming himself and aiding the main character.
Also, you have to remember that in the Prequels there are 2 main story arcs going on, Padmes' story within the PT just as the OT was about Luke, with the overall story arc about Anakin throughout all 6 films. So, Jar Jar being in that inner cirlce of Padmes, and being a friend to Anakin, should have redeemed himself in some way wether small or grandiose to complete his character for both story arcs! But, we all know that he wasn't even in RotS, so Lucas never even gave Jar Jar a chance!

In this same vein, Padme IS the main character of the PT(which I identified and have argued from day one), which George fianlly admitted to in the audio commentary of the RotS dvd. Inturn, not only did George betray secondary characters like JJ, he betrayed his own admitted main character, by not including those now deleted scenes of the rebellious senators and the 'Delgation of the Two-Thousand'. Padme who had been such a strong character had no pupose within the plot of RotS except to become a worry-wort/sailors wife worrying about the safe return of her man in arms. The only thing I liked about her character was the scene when she goes after Anakin and tries to bring him back. Once again she takes charge and tries to change the outcome of hers' and Anakins' fate, but tragically fails to do so. This I think was also the best acted scene by both Portman and Christensen in RotS except for that "your breaking my heart" line that slightly weakens that otherwise powerful moment.
However, due to both of these betrayals by Lucas to his own story, is what in my mind has destroyed the overall story as it is now for forever. Keeping in mind that I think there are totally different avenues that I think Lucas should have explored instead of the storylines that we got, but simply as it stands now, even this story suffers due to these 2 major flaws!

stillakid
11-12-2005, 10:50 PM
In this same vein, Padme IS the main character of the PT

I think that George's ego was the main character of the PT. :pleased:

Phantom-like Menace
11-13-2005, 02:44 AM
Sorry, I loved that bit, and I disagree with your reasoning. I thought the Mace / Palps duel was handled in way that perfectly preserved the "ultimate bad-a##" hierarchy. Mace is the most powerful of the Jedi, and Yoda the wisest. That's why Mace was able to get the best of Palps while Yoda could only fight him to a draw. Mace had Palpy dead to rights, but Anakin came along and cheated.

I'm not convinced Mace was winning so much as being allowed to win. If Palpatine had simply killed Mace, Anakin might not have turned as easily. Palpatine's gain would have simply been killing Mace. In losing, Palpatine forced Anakin to take the ultimate step to "rescue" his friend and mentor. Our difference of opinion lies in the fact that you believe Palpatine was losing, while I believe Mace had lost before he fought. While both can't be correct, I can't say either is correct. It seemed to me Palpatine was playing to Anakin the entire time he was shooting lightning at Mace. I mean he didn't actually request Mace not throw him in the briar patch, but that was what I heard.


The truth is that Anakin was not yet as powerful as Mace, Palps, or Yoda. He was stronger than Obi-wan and Dooku, but his eventual lack of discipline caused him to lose to Obi-wan. I don't know why you are fixated on proving Anakin to be the strongest dude in the galaxy at this point, but it just ain't the story.

My fixation regarding Anakin's skill, were I to allow I have one, is in having him remotely justify his ego. Lucas sets Anakin up to be discounted by the audience merely by having him talk a big game and getting consistently slapped down; it's the Scrappy Doo Complex. Anakin's weakness is supposed to be anger, not incompetence. Anakin showed his weakness when he beheaded Dooku. Anakin was not showing his weakness in AOTC when Dooku took his arm.

Anakin's lack of discipline may not allow him to reach his full potential, but when Anakin goes to the dark side, he should get a surge of power. "Faster, quicker, more seductive." Luke wasn't doing so well against Vader in ROTJ until Darth Vader threatened to turn Leia, so Luke's ". . . hatred has made [him] powerful," and he began pounding Vader back. Anakin's hatred should have done the same for him, but instead Lucas painted him the Scrappy Doo of the saga again.

The primary difference between our viewpoints is in the outcome of the Mace/Paplatine fight. I can agree with everything you say if Mace legitimately was more powerful than Palpatine, but I just don't think that's the case. I don't think Mace could beat Yoda in a straight up fight. Even Sam Jackson states Mace is merely the second baddest after Yoda. The only time I feel Palpatine was "playing for all the marbles" was when he went after Yoda. The chess match was over for all intents and purposes. Palpatine's pawn had made it to the other end of the board, and with Vader as his new piece, he was working on the endgame.


JJ is first and formost from a literary standpoint(or as a mythic archetype), "The Fool".

I can accept that. However Jar Jar is such an extreme case of this, that George Lucas passed up archetype for caricature, which disrepects the mythos, even if unintentionally. If Lucas's heroes had been as heroic as his fool was foolish, they would have entered the scene carting their gonads in wheelbarrows, would have had powerful chests emitting voices that shook rooms, and would have had cleft chins you could fly an X-wing down.


Just as you stated he is nothing more than eyecandy to attract 2year olds.

Just for the record, I stated he wasn't serious enough for that role. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I just really hate Jar-Jar.

You seem like a really good person to ask about Anakin's birth. What do you think of the dilution of the mythic birth of Anakin, the possibility that it was Darth Plagueis who created him, not the will of the Force?

I was kind of hoping someone would speak for or against my opinion of Qui-Gon.

The 'Xir
11-13-2005, 03:37 PM
You seem like a really good person to ask about Anakin's birth. What do you think of the dilution of the mythic birth of Anakin, the possibility that it was Darth Plagueis who created him, not the will of the Force?

I was kind of hoping someone would speak for or against my opinion of Qui-Gon.

I really don't have the time to comment on Qui-Gon at the moment, so I'll get back to you on that one.

On Anakin's immaculate birth though? Well with what we've been given, and how he has acted throughout the Saga, I think we have to assume that it was Palpatine and not Plagueis that created Anakin! By reading between the lines we have to assume that Palptine is the apprentice that he refers to in the "Tragedy of Darth Plaqueis The Wise". So his treachery against his former master must have happened long before Anakin was even born. A natural birth obviously only takes nine months, and Anakin was 9 years old at the time of the Naboo blockade, and Palpatine obviously had to have a significant amount of time to acquire and train someone as skilled as Darth Maul. Now I have not read the whole RotS novel, only listened to the abridged CD novel, but I don't think there is anything in either adaption that would give clues for us to think otherwise!
Also I don't know If I would use the phrase, "dilution of the mythic birth"; because even if it was Palptine or even Plaqueis that actually did create Anakin, that is still a result of the 'will of the Force'. Similar to how the prophecy of "The Chosen One" will bring balance to the Force, it doesn't specify how balance will come, but once again it is still the will of the Force! A point I think your boy Qui-Gon would agree with and uphold, even if he didn't believe the truth of the staement!

once again:


PALPATINE: Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

2-1B
11-13-2005, 04:54 PM
Palps could have been lying about Plagueis influencing the midichlorians to create life. He knows of the prophecy, Qui-Gon knew of the prophecy, and it was Qui-Gon who suggested it was possible that Anners was conceived by the midichlorians. Palps was laying the bait to try and draw Ani in to the Dark Side by puffing it up and making it attractive.

I don't believe Anakin's conception was "created" by the Sith, no way. :)

Xir, there is nothing "immaculate" about Anakin's conception. That's an often misapplied religious term that does not belong here since there is no reference to Anakin being conceived without sin. ;)

JON9000
11-14-2005, 11:25 AM
I'm not convinced Mace was winning so much as being allowed to win. If Palpatine had simply killed Mace, Anakin might not have turned as easily. Palpatine's gain would have simply been killing Mace. In losing, Palpatine forced Anakin to take the ultimate step to "rescue" his friend and mentor. Our difference of opinion lies in the fact that you believe Palpatine was losing, while I believe Mace had lost before he fought. While both can't be correct, I can't say either is correct. It seemed to me Palpatine was playing to Anakin the entire time he was shooting lightning at Mace. I mean he didn't actually request Mace not throw him in the briar patch, but that was what I heard.

I see what you mean, but it seems to me Palps would need to know the following:

1. that Anakin would help him (I can buy this)

2. that Anakin would show up at exactly the right time (I can even buy this)

3. that Mace would try to kill him in cold blood, thus presenting Anakin with an all or nothing choice (I have a hard time with this one)

4. that he could kill off several Jedi and toy with Mace until Anakin arrived (which I find particularly hard to believe, if fighting Mace required so much as to leave Palps deformed).


My fixation regarding Anakin's skill, were I to allow I have one, is in having him remotely justify his ego. Lucas sets Anakin up to be discounted by the audience merely by having him talk a big game and getting consistently slapped down; it's the Scrappy Doo Complex. Anakin's weakness is supposed to be anger, not incompetence. Anakin showed his weakness when he beheaded Dooku. Anakin was not showing his weakness in AOTC when Dooku took his arm.

Now that I think about this, I think the two Dooku scenes actually help rationalize the Obi-wan Anakin duel. Obi-wan told Anakin to use discipline in the first fight, and Anakin charged angry in and got electroed. In the second fight, Anakin was disciplined and even tempered (as Dooku noted) and hence won. Perhaps the disciplined Jedi is better than the wild fighter- hence Obi-wan was able to defeat Anakin (lest we forget why Anakin lost his legs... I think I am right on this one).


Anakin's lack of discipline may not allow him to reach his full potential, but when Anakin goes to the dark side, he should get a surge of power. "Faster, quicker, more seductive." Luke wasn't doing so well against Vader in ROTJ until Darth Vader threatened to turn Leia, so Luke's ". . . hatred has made [him] powerful," and he began pounding Vader back. Anakin's hatred should have done the same for him, but instead Lucas painted him the Scrappy Doo of the saga again.

This idea makes sense with all the talk of "anger making one powerful" which comes from Dooku, Palps, and Vader... etc. But I think the dark side is full of crap. As I remember ROTJ working out, Luke kicked Vader down the stairs and was more than holding his own before Vader played the Leia card. He just didn't want to kill Vader because he could sense the good in him.


The primary difference between our viewpoints is in the outcome of the Mace/Palpatine fight. I can agree with everything you say if Mace legitimately was more powerful than Palpatine, but I just don't think that's the case. I don't think Mace could beat Yoda in a straight up fight. Even Sam Jackson states Mace is merely the second baddest after Yoda. The only time I feel Palpatine was "playing for all the marbles" was when he went after Yoda. The chess match was over for all intents and purposes. Palpatine's pawn had made it to the other end of the board, and with Vader as his new piece, he was working on the endgame.

My idea came from the part where Anakin described Obi-wan as being as wise as Master Yoda and as Powerful as Master Windu; thereby setting them up as superlatives in each of those respects- Yoda is wisest and Mace is most powerful. Oh well, who knows, but it seems to me that the big complaint I am hearing in this particular thread is something like this: "these movies suck because they are not logically consistent. Not with what is presented and explained, of course, but with what I, the veiwer, have extrapolated." Which to me is exasperating- especially when people let it ruin their enjoyment of the pictures.

That is why I place Anakin's, Mace's, and everybody else's ability level where I do. Everything else being equal, it just seems to fit best to me. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but I don't understand why people get so frustrated when what appears on screen doesn't correspond.

Turambar
11-14-2005, 08:45 PM
I must admit that I hated the other 2 prequels, but never had a problem with ROTS. . . .
Oh. . . wait. That's probably because I never saw it. LOL

Tonysmo
11-15-2005, 04:26 AM
How do two guys in cloth robes dance around explosions of lava and not get burned once? What kind of boots do they wear again? Their feet didnt hurt in the least from that small block of metal floating on top of the lava? yet.. Ani loses his legs and catches on fire without touching the lava?


I know I know.. now Im just being nitpicky.. :thumbsup:

Phantom-like Menace
11-15-2005, 09:14 AM
I see what you mean, but it seems to me Palps would need to know the following:
1. that Anakin would help him (I can buy this)
2. that Anakin would show up at exactly the right time (I can even buy this)
3. that Mace would try to kill him in cold blood, thus presenting Anakin with an all or nothing choice (I have a hard time with this one)
4. that he could kill off several Jedi and toy with Mace until Anakin arrived (which I find particularly hard to believe, if fighting Mace required so much as to leave Palps deformed).

On point two, Palpatine could chose the time himself. If he is throwing the fight, he can string Mace along while making his own time. More on this below.

Now, would Palpatine know Mace would try kill him? I don't really think it matters. In a lightsaber fight there are bound to be dozens of situations in which on outsider may feel he needs to step in. I think Mace's attempted death stroke was just the opportunity that presented itself. In some other manner, Palpatine could simply put Mace in a situation in which it is either Mace or him. Mace certainly wouldn't allow himself to die on the off chance Palpatine could be taken alive later.

I think the best ruler as to Palpatine's estimation of his success would be that he told Anakin he was Darth Sidious. That tells me he didn't fear anything going poorly for him.

The commentary on ROTS states that at least by the time Anakin enters the scene, Palpatine is pretending he's weak and has lost his powers. That's not an exact quote of what Lucas says but that is basically it. That's before he was even deformed, so the deformation is not evidence that the fight wasn't thrown. Lucas does actually talk of Mace overpowering Palpatine, though. That statement could describe the appearance of the scene or the actuality of the scene. If I argued it was the actuality, then I would wonder how Palpatine let everything ride on such a small detail. I'd then wonder if he didn't accept that he would lose because he knew Anakin would come up to be a distraction at a critical time. Palpatine would not have told Anakin he was Sith unless he was certain of two things: that Anakin was going to be his apprentice, and that he could destroy the Jedi. If either one of those weren't possible, his plan would not succeed. At that point, assuming Palpatine threw the fight and was letting the situation play out until Anakin acted is a simpler solution than assuming he knew he would lose but that Anakin would step up at the critical time.

stillakid
11-15-2005, 09:28 AM
I still maintain that despite any use of Force in ROTS, all other evidence suggests that Palpatine had little to no use of the Force until well into the OT films. That being said, his actions in ROTS relative to the rest of the evidence throughout the saga tell us that while he might have been able to conjure up a couple of parlor tricks (flying through the air, throwing things), he wasn't nearly as adept as using the Force as even one of the younglings. This would explain why he was bested so easily by Mace, who never appeared to be much more skilled than any other Jedi we ever saw. Why Mace's two cohorts went down so quickly can be chalked up to movie convenience, not unlike the yellow shirt guys on Star Trek who are merely there as cannon fodder.

Phantom-like Menace
11-15-2005, 09:45 AM
On Anakin's immaculate birth though? Well with what we've been given, and how he has acted throughout the Saga, I think we have to assume that it was Palpatine and not Plagueis that created Anakin! By reading between the lines we have to assume that Palptine is the apprentice that he refers to in the "Tragedy of Darth Plaqueis The Wise". So his treachery against his former master must have happened long before Anakin was even born. A natural birth obviously only takes nine months, and Anakin was 9 years old at the time of the Naboo blockade, and Palpatine obviously had to have a significant amount of time to acquire and train someone as skilled as Darth Maul. Now I have not read the whole RotS novel, only listened to the abridged CD novel, but I don't think there is anything in either adaption that would give clues for us to think otherwise!
Also I don't know If I would use the phrase, "dilution of the mythic birth"; because even if it was Palptine or even Plaqueis that actually did create Anakin, that is still a result of the 'will of the Force'. Similar to how the prophecy of "The Chosen One" will bring balance to the Force, it doesn't specify how balance will come, but once again it is still the will of the Force! A point I think your boy Qui-Gon would agree with and uphold, even if he didn't believe the truth of the staement!

I say "dilution" because the difference between "born directly by the will of the Force" and "born because a dark wizard decided it would be a good idea" is a downgrade. That said, I agree with you completely.

With the original idea, that the Force willed Anakin into existence, the idea seemed to parallel either Christ or Hercules. I personally prefered looking at Hercules as the model, but that may be because of my pagan sympathy. I also look more to Hercules, because Anakin's actions in life were far closer to Hercules's than to Christ's. He also had some of the same faults as Hercules. Now, the evidence pointing to the idea that Plagueis created Anakin, I immediately think more of the magical origin of Merlin who (in one fo the many accounts) was born by a demon to a virgin and was intended to be evil only to do good instead. We know Arthurian legend was one of Lucas's inspirations.

I think you're right in saying Qui-Gon would have seen the will of the Force at work in the ironic turn for the Sith.

Oh, and

I don't believe Anakin's conception was "created" by the Sith, no way. :)

I think the best evidence that Anakin was created by the Sith is that Palpatine doesn't make the claim directly. If Palpatine stated it, it would be easy to assume he was lying. Anakin is too preoccupied with saving Padme to even stop and realize that he was life created by midichlorians. If Anakin didn't even realize what Palpatine was saying, Palpatine wouldn't gain anything by lying.


Xir, there is nothing "immaculate" about Anakin's conception. That's an often misapplied religious term that does not belong here since there is no reference to Anakin being conceived without sin.;)

I don't feel pedantic anymore. I imagine eventually immaculate conception would have its meaning just as altered as decimate--if it hasn't already.:)

Phantom-like Menace
11-15-2005, 09:52 AM
I still maintain that despite any use of Force in ROTS, all other evidence suggests that Palpatine had little to no use of the Force until well into the OT films. That being said, his actions in ROTS relative to the rest of the evidence throughout the saga tell us that while he might have been able to conjure up a couple of parlor tricks (flying through the air, throwing things), he wasn't nearly as adept as using the Force as even one of the younglings. This would explain why he was bested so easily by Mace, who never appeared to be much more skilled than any other Jedi we ever saw. Why Mace's two cohorts went down so quickly can be chalked up to movie convenience, not unlike the yellow shirt guys on Star Trek who are merely there as cannon fodder.

Palpatine's fight with Yoda proves he was quite capable. One could argue the fight between Yoda and Palpatine (who Yoda descibes himself as being too powerful for Obi-Wan to face) was a draw, but the Grandmaster of the Jedi didn't seem too keen on particpating in the continued fight against him.

Back to pedantic mode, though: They're red shirts.

Rogue II
11-15-2005, 10:50 AM
The whole Jedi vs. Palpatine sequence had a pro-wrestling feel to it. When Anakin distracted Mace, I was waiting for Palpatine to get up and wack 'em with a steel chair.

JimJamBonds
11-15-2005, 11:01 AM
Palpatine's fight with Yoda proves he was quite capable. One could argue the fight between Yoda and Palpatine (who Yoda descibes himself as being too powerful for Obi-Wan to face) was a draw, but the Grandmaster of the Jedi didn't seem too keen on particpating in the continued fight against him.

I think the fight itself was a draw, however due to the greater issues at stake Yoda did lose. Also due to the location of the fight Palps had the advantage, had it taken place at a more neutral location I think Yoda would have taken Palps.

TheDarthVader
11-15-2005, 07:20 PM
I am not so sure. Palpatine was strong with the force. Has it occurred to anyone that Palpatine let Mace win the fight? Why? Because that was his "plan", and palpy could forsee the future. Why is that important? Because after Anakin helped kill Mace, he turned to the dark side.

Could Palpy beat yoda anywhere? I think so! Ever heard of this thing called force drain? I compare it to a car and gasoline. When the gasoline is out, the car does not go. Well, according to force ability and other factors, some jedi/sith have "more gas in the tank" than others. I think Yoda realized this. Palpy became even stronger in the dark side after he shocked Mace to death and killed those other jedi. How did he gain strenth so quickly? How did Luke gain strength so quickly after training with yoda? Thank you. So in other words while Yoda's "force gas tank" may be 200 gallons, Palpy's "force gas tank" is more like 400 gallons. Thus Palpy's "force drain" would be far less, and he could keep using the dark side (throwing things, lightning, etc) while Yoda's force abilites would eventually drain down first.

B.
TDV

JimJamBonds
11-16-2005, 12:27 AM
One thing that has always caught my eye during the Sids/Yoda fight is after Yoda throws the pod back up to Sids then Yoda hops up there, he draws his saber but its knocked away. Sids is overpowering Yoda but then you see Yoda look up and you can see the reflection in his eyes. He seems to be holding his own and there is a 'turning of the tide' to the fight. When they show Sids he definitly has what I would call an "OHH S**T!" look on his face. For my 2 cents he probably thought the lightning would take care of things but that wasn't the case with Yoda.

JON9000
11-16-2005, 11:50 AM
Has it occurred to anyone that Palpatine let Mace win the fight?
check out the previous ten posts where Phantomlikemenace and I argue about it like weirdos. I think PLM agrees with you, while I think it was an honest fight in which Mace only lost because of the intervention of Anakin.

JON9000
11-16-2005, 11:57 AM
One thing that has always caught my eye during the Sids/Yoda fight is after Yoda throws the pod back up to Sids then Yoda hops up there, he draws his saber but its knocked away. Sids is overpowering Yoda but then you see Yoda look up and you can see the reflection in his eyes. He seems to be holding his own and there is a 'turning of the tide' to the fight. When they show Sids he definitly has what I would call an "OHH S**T!" look on his face. For my 2 cents he probably thought the lightning would take care of things but that wasn't the case with Yoda.

I think both the Palps/Yoda fight and the Obi/Anakin fight were even fights pitting greater wisdom against greater power. In each case, one combatant was able to take the high ground, be it through ability or luck. In both cases, wisdom proved to be on the side of the Jedi- Yoda was smart enough to fight another day, while Anakin caught the smack down. I don't think it is really much more complicated than that. I think someone else here stated something to that effect already.

Devo
11-16-2005, 12:14 PM
wisdom proved to be on the side of the Jedi- Yoda was smart enough to fight another day.

Thats not how he saw it. Far as he was concerned he'd failed and immediatley resolved to go into exile. I didn't get the impression he personally intended to 'fight another day' at all.

stillakid
11-16-2005, 01:21 PM
Yoda was smart enough to fight another day, .
That certainly is taking the long view. Yoda didn't only wait 20 years, he didn't even throw himself back into the fray...he waited for somebody else to grow up and go fight the battle for him. And in the meantime, how many lives were lost, hopes were shattered... :sleeping: (sniffle)

The 'Xir
11-16-2005, 01:46 PM
In both cases, wisdom proved to be on the side of the Jedi- Yoda was smart enough to fight another day

I'd have to agree with this! Although I think Yoda knew he was beaten, he could have kept the battle up, and probably would have battled to his death. However, there is a moment after he falls to the senate floor, and looks back up towards Palpatine, in that moment is where I think he decides that as it stands there are two Sith, and two Jedi, why sacrafice himself now when he and Obi-wan can regroup and fight another day. Think of his lesson he teaches later on to Luke; luke: "What's in there?", "Only what you take with you... your weapons you will not need them". Meaning if you carry forward with destructive Ideas, only destruction can come about, and most likely it will be your own". After Yodas' battle with Palps, when his robe fell from the air and hooked onto that jagged piece of metal, I think that was a metaphor for it's time to 'hang up the ole boxing gloves', so into exile he decided to go.



I was kind of hoping someone would speak for or against my opinion of Qui-Gon.

As far as Qui-Gon, I think we discussed most of his role in the grand scheme of things. To be blunt though, I think Qui-Gon was right! I also think he and Count Dooku, were suppossed to be mirrors of each other, one light one dark. Qui-Gon, felt the council was wrong, and Dooku felt the Senate was wrong/corrupt. However, the only difference in their phiosophies is that Qui-Gon gained his insight from his feelings and studies of the Force and acted out the will of the Force, where Dooku did not. Dooku succumbed to a lie, and trusted in Palpatine too much, just like Anakin did, instead of trusting their own feelings. So, if Qui-Gon had survived his battle with Darth Maul, I think he would have agreed with his former master about the corruption in the senate, as Dooku descibes to Obi-Wan in AotC, however he would never have joined Dooku because I think his senses were more attuned to what was really going on. Damn Maul! He ruined everything! ;)

Also, here something to ponder; we now know(from the deleted scenes) that Palptine was even trying to undermine Anakins trust in Padme. It's possible to reason that Palptine planted the ideas/seeds in Anakins head about Padme dying, when she might not have been dying at all, or he possibly created Anakins dreams entirely. Although a stretch, rememebr all those with power are afraid to lose it, and I think Palpatine would have done anything he possibly could have, in order to assure victory! Remeber both Padme's and Ben's staements, "It was just a dream", "Anakin I'm not going to die in child birth", "Dreams pass in time". Although Yoda does inpart the wisdom of letting those close to you go, and rejoice in their joining with the Force. However Yoda is talking about visions, which I would assume is a vision through the Force, and Anakin isn't having force aided visions, he's just dreaming.

I wonder if George ever has nightmares he wakes up screming to, nightmares of him wearing something other than a flanel shirt! :eek: The Horror! lol

JimJamBonds
11-17-2005, 12:39 AM
That certainly is taking the long view. Yoda didn't only wait 20 years, he didn't even throw himself back into the fray...he waited for somebody else to grow up and go fight the battle for him. And in the meantime, how many lives were lost, hopes were shattered... :sleeping: (sniffle)

Well he trained Obbers to become a ghost that would all him (Obi) to continue to help Luke after he dies. He finishes Lukes training also, so I don't think he was just sitting on Dagobah killing time until ol' Luke showed up.

stillakid
11-17-2005, 12:46 AM
Well he trained Obbers to become a ghost that would all him (Obi) to continue to help Luke after he dies. He finishes Lukes training also, so I don't think he was just sitting on Dagobah killing time until ol' Luke showed up.

I guess that's sort of right. I mean, without a Mrs. Yoda to share the hut, our little green friend probably got to know his little green friend pretty well too. :thumbsup:

2-1B
11-17-2005, 01:56 AM
Exactly stillakid! How could Yoda be comfortable with others if he wasn't comfortable with himself? lol

DarthBrandon
11-17-2005, 02:50 AM
I am not so sure. Palpatine was strong with the force. Has it occurred to anyone that Palpatine let Mace win the fight? Why? Because that was his "plan", and palpy could forsee the future. Why is that important? Because after Anakin helped kill Mace, he turned to the dark side.

TDV

Actually Lucas states on the DVD that Mace won the fight fair & square, no deception or anything like that. The only reason Palps is still breathing is because of Anakin, nothing more. It was a huge gamble that paid off, Palps did however lay it on thick for Anakin to make his choice. (I'm too weak, I can't hold on, Anakin help me!!!!) End of story Lucas said then it is.:D

JON9000
11-17-2005, 12:00 PM
Actually Lucas states on the DVD that Mace won the fight fair & square, no deception or anything like that. The only reason Palps is still breathing is because of Anakin, nothing more. It was a huge gamble that paid off, Palps did however lay it on thick for Anakin to make his choice. (I'm too weak, I can't hold on, Anakin help me!!!!) End of story Lucas said then it is.:D

Sweet vindication!

TheDarthVader
11-17-2005, 01:18 PM
Alright, Brandon, I will accept that. I have not listened to the commentary yet so I was in the dark.

B.
TDV

DarthBrandon
11-17-2005, 01:57 PM
Alright, Brandon, I will accept that. I have not listened to the commentary yet so I was in the dark.

B.
TDV

No worries, BTW I wasn't trying to be cocky, if it came off that way it wasn't the intention. TFN has a thread about Palpy & Mace, (which I love to read for kicks, never posted there) even though Lucas states on the DVD that Mace won the fight the Sidious fans still think it's open for their own interpretation. I always get a kick out of it.:D

TC & Peace

B

The 'Xir
11-21-2005, 11:10 AM
Here's some more rubbish to through onto the pile! :cross-eye

I just watched RotS again over the weekend and became aware of this little problem: After Anakin and the clones purge the Jedi Temple, which Bali Organa is somewhat a witness to but then helps rescue Yoda and Ben; while Anakin meets with Padme and tells her that the Jedi have revolted and are now enemies of the Republic and that he hopes Obi-Wan has remained loyal to the Republic before leaving for Mustafar, both Padme and Bail attend the emergency senate meeting together.
Now maybe the novel better explains this I don't know, but here you have two collegues(who were orignally working together for the same thing) now comming together with two different viewpoints of what has transpired, one(Padme) thinking that the Jedi have revolted and are enemies, while Bail is helping the Jedi. Wouldn't you think that two close collegues(who are sitting together in the same senate pod) would confer with each other on what has been going on, and find out from each other their oppossing views?
Also I do now remember reading this part of the novel, and seem to remember Bail wanting to protest, and Padme telling him not to, that he'd get into trouble if he did.
With all this mishmashed tangled webs of viewpoints, It seems to me that Lucas has totally botched Padmes character. She believes in the Republic but not the Jedi 'cause she trusts Anakin but not Palpatine who's saying the same thing. And why, when Bail first walks into the Senate and asks "what is going on", and Padme replies,"The chancellor is elaborating on the plot by the Jedi against the Republic" why wouldn't Bail say The Jedi didn't rebel, Yoda and Ben told me that their clones turned on them. :upset: :upset: :frus: :frus: :frus: UUUUGGGGHHHH!!! The more I think about it the more angry I'm getting, once again here is something that just makes no sense!
Why doesn't it make sense, because Ben is able to walk right into Padmes apartment with no reaction by Padme to call security and although she realizes that Ben wants to find Anakin so he can kill him, all of a sudden she listens to him enough to later tell Anakin on Mustafar that, "Obi-Wan only wants to help us", "Us" Anakin says, "He knows", Padme replies.

Which is it girl, do you trust your boyfriend?, Obi-wan? the Jedi?, Palpatine? Bail? :confused: :confused: Yeah she later realizes the truth when Anakin starts talking about ruling the galaxy and everything, but that's an immediate realization and lends no creedence to her actions and beliefs from before.

OyVey, I gotta stop before I start endlessly repeating myself. :mad: :crazed:

2-1B
11-21-2005, 01:19 PM
It makes more sense than your post Xir, because Padme never says "the plot" by the Jedi but rather "a plot" by the Jedi and that does not mean she fully believes it. :)

Also, she points out the death of liberty in that scene and she wasn't happy about it, she wasn't one of those Senators who drank the anti-Jedi kool aid. lol

But still, going with the conversation you would have liked to have seen between Bail and Padme, I still don't see the issue because while Bail knows that the clones turned on the Jedi, that does not contradict anything because the whole thing "started" with Mace's attempt on Palps' life. So yeah, that was the whole point of the Senate scene in the first place - Palps was OPENLY talking about the Jedi rebellion being foiled and how else could it have been foiled unless the clones "turned" on the Jedi ? :)

The 'Xir
11-21-2005, 03:29 PM
Yeah, sorry about my post, but when your trying to remember and pull everything together in one outline, that's based on something as confusing as what Lucas has done it can get a little a...confusing! ;)

However, I think my point was made, and in response to your um response :cross-eye, based on what your saying why would Bail then help Yoda and Ben at all, and after he does, why not tell Padme about it?

Also, Bail doesn't know that Mace went to assasinate or arrest Palpatine, Padme never tells him what Anakin had told her onscreen. All Bail knows is what the clones told him at the temple, that, "there has been a rebellion". I'm assuming that he doesn't believe it after he watches the clones shoot down the padawan, and that's why he goes to look for Yoda. However, as I said when he meets with Padme in the senate, she only knows what Anakin has told her, and Bail knows what he has gathered from Yoda and Ben. Two completely different viewpoints!
Now, we know Padme was trying to get Palptine to stop all the amendments to the constitution, and to resume negotiations with the Seperatists, so when she sees Palptine declaring himself Emperor, and makes her comment about liberty dying, and knowing that the Jedi put up some sort of fight, she should have put 2 and 2 together right there, even if Bail hadn't told her anything, but she doesn't, and then we see her and Ben chatting like old friends in her apartment. :confused: Sorry I'm just not buying it! Somethin' stinks and it ain't just my shoes!

JON9000
11-21-2005, 03:51 PM
It makes more sense than your post Xir, because Padme never says "the plot" by the Jedi but rather "a plot" by the Jedi and that does not mean she fully believes it. :)

Also, she points out the death of liberty in that scene and she wasn't happy about it, she wasn't one of those Senators who drank the anti-Jedi kool aid. lol

But still, going with the conversation you would have liked to have seen between Bail and Padme, I still don't see the issue because while Bail knows that the clones turned on the Jedi, that does not contradict anything because the whole thing "started" with Mace's attempt on Palps' life. So yeah, that was the whole point of the Senate scene in the first place - Palps was OPENLY talking about the Jedi rebellion being foiled and how else could it have been foiled unless the clones "turned" on the Jedi ? :)

Exactly.

Padme and Palpatine have been at odds for a while politically pre-AOTC with the Military Creation Act. Padme has difficulty believing, however, that Palps is gathering power with no intention of relinquishing it after the war, most likely because she worked with him and Anakin is loyal to him. Bail and several other delegates convince Padme in a deleted scene that Palps is dangerous.

Padme goes to Palps and asks that he relinquish power, but Palps refuses to do so while Grievous is still loose. Padme is visibly angry and now sees the truth. The delegates decide to form an opposition, and Padme is asked to keep the information away from Anakin.

Anakin turns and attacks the temple and Order 66 goes out, Bail then witnesses the clones in the temple. Anakin returns to Padme and tells her the Jedi have turned traitorous (he purposefully leaves out most of the story), but leaves open the possibility Obi-wan may be loyal. At this point Anakin is being totally deceitful and Padme doesn't know what to believe or who to trust, other than Obi-wan, because she knows he loves both her and Anakin.

Anakin splits here, Obi-wan and Yoda meet up with Bail, who does not trust Palps, particularly after what he witnessed. At this point, everyone knows that there has been an assault on the Jedi by Republic forces. Nobody knows Anakin was behind it. Neither does anyone know that Anakin killed Mace, or that he and Palps are both Sith Lords.

Obi-wan and Yoda go to the temple, Padme and Bail meet up at the Senate. Bail is late, and Padme informs him Palps is elaborating on a plot by the Jedi. Here, we know that Padme does not trust Palps, fears the hold he has on Anakin, and is confused. Palps is delivering a big speech explaining what happened (which is Anakin's version), and Padme is further traumatized when Palps finally reveals his plan- Empire.

xir- do you really think it would serve a purpose to bog things down with a pow-wow between Padme and Bail (a secondary character) at this moment? And do you think, given Anakin's loyalties and Padme's concern for him and knowledge of his closeness to the Palps, that she would tip her hand to Bail? At this point she probably thinking the best thing to do would be to find Anakin, run off to Naboo, and live in seclusion forever. And don't you realize that this conversation takes place later between Obi-wan and Padme anyway, with all of the details filled in and much higher dramatic stakes? If you have a gripe, it is perhaps that the movie would have made more sense to you had Bail and Padme not met in the chamber. If a conversation had occurred there, it would have sucked.

Why does Padme let in Obi-wan? Because he is the one person left she feels she can trust, and she needs the details filled in, because she knows something is very wrong with Anakin, she knows Obi-wan will be sympathetic, and so on and so on. And it was a great scene.

I don't know why you are so desperate to call ROTS complete rubbish.... it seems to me more and more that the real problem here is that some of you don't "get it", or you want the movie to be the way you want it to be, and don't like simply because it doesn't conform to your preconceptions, or if you try to make it conform, it doesn't fit. Or somehow you might "prove" to everyone how smart you are if you "prove" something didn't make sense.

My point is, if you don't understand something, it looks better to simply put forward a point of view and get feedback, rather than to say it sucks, because it may make perfect sense to others, and those others will then be inclined to believe you hate something simply because you don't understand it. :tired:

The 'Xir
11-21-2005, 04:22 PM
Come On John, none of this:


...Padme has difficulty believing, however, that Palps is gathering power with no intention of relinquishing it after the war, most likely because she worked with him and Anakin is loyal to him. Bail and several other delegates convince Padme in a deleted scene that Palps is dangerous.

Padme goes to Palps and asks that he relinquish power, but Palps refuses to do so while Grievous is still loose. Padme is visibly angry and now sees the truth. The delegates decide to form an opposition, and Padme is asked to keep the information away from Anakin...

... Padme doesn't know what to believe or who to trust, other than Obi-wan, because she knows he loves both her and Anakin...

...Here, we know that Padme does not trust Palps, fears the hold he has on Anakin, and is confused...

Was onscreen for 1)(yeah we have the deleted scenes, but lucas didn't even bother putting them back into the movie for the dvd), and 2) most of this is speculation on your part. And trust me I have similar speculation, but that's why I'm saying what George has done doesn't make any sense, 'cause here we are all left speculating, when there should have been a scene or better writting to explain all this confusion. If it works for you great, but as I spelled out in my "clearer" post above, I don't buy it! I'm just saying it wasn't communicated well on screen, and as a result I think the movie suffers.

JON9000
11-21-2005, 05:14 PM
Come On John, none of this:

Was onscreen for 1)(yeah we have the deleted scenes, but lucas didn't even bother putting them back into the movie for the dvd), and 2) most of this is speculation on your part.

That is true. Many of Padme's motivations were left unspoken because of the scenes were deleted. Lucas noted himself that it is always difficult to strike a balance. You are not alone in complaining that she wasn't given much to do in this one. On the whole, having seen the deleted scenes, I feel they were properly left out of the movie. ROTS is rather long to begin with, and the deleted scenes were not particularly interesting to me. Also, I didn't think it was much of a leap to get to where I got based on what was shown.

About the speculation: Do you mean to tell me you really had no idea of the conflict and turmoil Padme had been thrust into? That Anakin's reaction to her statement about possibly fighting on the wrong side, and her reaction to his reaction, didn't make you aware that her loyalties were being strained, that she no longer knew who or what was right? I thought it was pretty well spelled out here. What did you take away from this? This is my complaint: I feel you probably did know this, so I am wondering why you wanted it spelled out even more, at the expense of pacing.

The 'Xir
11-22-2005, 12:36 PM
Do you mean to tell me you really had no idea of the conflict and turmoil Padme had been thrust into?

Of course I do, it's just that we disagree on how it was presented, you think it's fine the way it is. While I on the other hand, with what we are given on screen, don't believe the story thats being presented. Now sure its just a movie and sure its fantasy, and I always argue on behalf of suspenion of disbelief! However, it's gotta make sense to a certain extant, and it has to be cohesive. I think George has sacraficed the story for granduer. Alot of what people do and the reason for what they are doing just don't make a ton of sense, and why I pointed out the conflicting viewpoints of Bail and Padme going into the emergency senate meeting. That's just one. Obviously theres the whole scenario I mapped out in my original post about Anakin and Palptines weak seduction. Anakin had plenty of times/chances to do the right thing and the reasons he chose to do the wrong thing don't work. The only thing that lends credit to his turn as I have stated before is solely, his love for Padme, but everything else is just dumb and unreasonable choices that have no valid explanations to back his choice up, or validate his actions! I know in real life, people can make dumb irrational choices in the heat of a moment, and what happens? They look foolish after the fact, well thats what this movie looks like to me, foolish, because the actions don't make sense, and after all...it's supposed to be fantasy, not real life! So that's even worse when fantasy looks just as foolish! get where I'm comming from?