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View Full Version : The road to immortality, Jedi ghosts, etc.



Tycho
11-21-2005, 12:48 PM
I'm brainstormng here:

Anakin appears as a ghost at the end of ROTJ but Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't teach him that.

Palpatine appears to have multiple voices as well as multiple personalities. Perhaps he is a vessel carrying Darth Plageus and Plagues' Master as well? He doesn't seem to care about dying in his fight vs. Yoda. It's either insanity or extreme over-confidence.

Perhaps "cheating death is a power only one has achieved" refers to Plageus saving his Master (un-named) and teaching this to Palpatine. In his Sith alchemy experiments (EU fans look to Naga Sadow) he also created the perfect Sith Lord (Anakin) and always intended Anakin to rule. Palpatine offed his Master because he feared Plageus would kill him and replace him with "his creation (his son, in a manner of speaking)."

But those received would continue to rule eternally - like Plageus, etc - existing in the Force and contributing to the multiple voices of Palpatine. "A powerful Sith you will become." (It sounds like a Seer probing the future, not a current conqueror about to sieze power).

So Palpatine was not afraid to die because he would exist in Anakin along with Plageus, etc.

But the Jedi could do this as well. Qui-Gon was somehow caught in this "between life" and Yoda and Obi-Wan joined him. Anakin did as well since there was no continuation of the Sith line when Darth Vader died (we presume - or he joined with Luke - "Yoda will always be with you." etc.

So Anakin returned with the Jedi (ROTJ - get it?) and the Sith were screwed with their concocted scheme.

But it also explains "At last we will have revenge...."

I wonder if I'm onto something here but I need to take a break and re-read and reconsider this.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-21-2005, 02:03 PM
I don't think Palpatine's many voices are anything other than sheer creepiness. If they were, that definitely would have been addressed in the films.

The Sith are not living on in their apprentices, as far as I know.

Was the whole "only one has achieved" referring to Plagueis, and Palpatine thought he knew how to do what Plagueis did, but he actually didn't have the whole hang of sustaining life?

Anakin's ability to become a ghost was apparently due to his extreme good deed, or something like that. We don't actually know for sure when the Endor party is, since it seemed like the Death Star was destroyed around morning and the party was at night (likely the same night). Obi and Yoda would have had enough time to give Anakin a crash course, with his first appearance on Endor. They probably gave him the full knowledge a little later, or something.

2-1B
11-21-2005, 07:03 PM
It's a fairy tale ending and somehow, doesn't really matter how, the 2 ghosts Luke knew appeared with his pops to reinforce that yes, Anakin had been saved.

What's that about the Sith creating the perfect Sith to rule? That's nonsense, why would a power-hungry Sith like Palps want to breed a better Sith than himself? That's crazy.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-21-2005, 08:18 PM
It's a fairy tale ending and somehow, doesn't really matter how, the 2 ghosts Luke knew appeared with his pops to reinforce that yes, Anakin had been saved.

What's that about the Sith creating the perfect Sith to rule? That's nonsense, why would a power-hungry Sith like Palps want to breed a better Sith than himself? That's crazy.
Dunno . . . I kind of think that they did indeed create Anakin, though, and he wasn't just a creation of the midi-chlorians themselves. But that's really up for interpretation, I guess.

2-1B
11-21-2005, 11:23 PM
I don't believe that the Sith created Anakin but even if they did, it's one thing to create a warrior to help bring down the fall of the Jedi but it's another thing to think that they wanted to create a great ruler. Why would Palps want a Sith more powerful than himself...so he can get himself killed?

Sure Palps told Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than either of them but I think he was in part taunting Yoda since he turned the former Jedi away from the Order. :)

Tycho
11-21-2005, 11:23 PM
That's what we're doing here: interpretting.

Now Palpatine told Yoda that "Darth Vader will become stronger than either of [them]." I think he was prepared to die against Yoda if necessary and live on vicariously through Anakin. He was insane - his cackling and enjoyment of destroying the Jedi was over-the-top (I loved every minute of Ian having fun with the role, however). EU brought into it, Darth Bane and Zanna his first apprentice were emotionless and approved of that quality. Dooku told Ventress that the Sith have no fear, and the Jedi code says "There is no emotion" while Palpatine told Anakin that the Sith and the Jedi are alike in almost every way. Perhaps his recent Sith lineage's research into eternal life might have caused them to become imbalanced, unable to suppress their emotions - especially with several personalities cluttering their subconsciousness.

But Anakin didn't deserve redemption or forgiveness from Yoda (maybe Obi-Wan) -but forgiveness isn't one of the Jedi principles - neither is holding a grudge for that matter. So why would they teach it to Anakin? Yeah he restored balance by killing Palpatine, but he killed younglings and other Jedi, etc. I'm sure Yoda wasn't thrilled with him. There wasn't time for a crash course. Vader died, and the Death Star was blowing up. Luke reached out to him. Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to do so when "Vader" was wounded on Mustafar, and Yoda wasn't going to do it. In fact it would make more sense if Luke learned how to do this in becoming a Jedi Master, than if his father learned it from Obi-Wan or Yoda.

I'm confused.

2-1B
11-21-2005, 11:28 PM
I'm confused.

Eliminate all that EU nonsense and you won't be so confused. lollollol

The 'Xir
11-22-2005, 12:01 PM
Yeah he restored balance by killing Palpatine, but he killed younglings and other Jedi, etc. I'm sure Yoda wasn't thrilled with him. There wasn't time for a crash course. Vader died, and the Death Star was blowing up. Luke reached out to him. Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to do so when "Vader" was wounded on Mustafar, and Yoda wasn't going to do it. In fact it would make more sense if Luke learned how to do this in becoming a Jedi Master, than if his father learned it from Obi-Wan or Yoda.

All good points! However, for Lucas it just comes down to it's his metaphor for purgatory, and once Anakin redeems himself he reclaims the good and receives eternal reward for it. Personally, I don't like it either(:rolleyes: suprise suprise, I know ;) ) that "passage" has come down to instruction, I think it 'causes unecessary plot problems(as you have mentioned) and I think this demystifies the Force even more than the midichlorians as some have argued. But what I really don't like is the "young spirit" of Anakin as per Lucas' explanation because that was the last time he was "good". That's BS in my book, because If he is redeemed in order to receive eternal reward, than he is good again, and died with a good heart if you will, so the Sebatian ghost should never have been taken out!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-22-2005, 04:26 PM
I don't believe that the Sith created Anakin but even if they did, it's one thing to create a warrior to help bring down the fall of the Jedi but it's another thing to think that they wanted to create a great ruler. Why would Palps want a Sith more powerful than himself...so he can get himself killed?

Sure Palps told Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than either of them but I think he was in part taunting Yoda since he turned the former Jedi away from the Order. :)
Maybe he didn't care if HE was the big Sith daddy, just so long as there was one?

It seems like the whole "Plagueis creating life" part was put there for a reason, moreso than just saving Padme's life.

Mandalorian Candidat
11-22-2005, 05:28 PM
I know this topic is interesting, but it can't be more than Lucas tinkering around with his whole mythology angle and feeble attempts to make some kind of continuity that didn't exist until he started writing EP1. It can't be more than that.

TheDarthVader
11-22-2005, 05:49 PM
I like your thoughts Tycho, and I think they are interesting. However Anakin was NOT created by the sith. Lucas stated in the commentary that Anakin is the chosen one. And the chosen one prophesy states that the chosen one would be conceived by the force. Anakin was conceived by midi-chlorians not by someone else creating him!

B.
TDV

El Chuxter
11-22-2005, 06:10 PM
But the Force did create Anakin. Darth Plagueis was merely the instrument of the Force. ;)

The 'Xir
11-23-2005, 09:49 AM
Yeah,I'm thinking the same thing! The Midichlorians did create Anakin, it's just that Sidious/Sith manipulated the Midichlorians to do so, per the tragedy of 'Darth Plaqueis the wise'

Here ya go:

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

TheDarthVader
11-23-2005, 09:57 AM
Whatever you guys want to think. I think the influence midi-chlorians idea was more of a "prevent people from dying" thing than a "Darth man needs a child" thing. Why? Because all Plagueis would have to do is inpregnate a woman. I don't think it would have been that hard for him (using the influence of the dark side of the force).

B.
TDV

JimJamBonds
11-23-2005, 10:01 AM
And how much of that do you think was just Palpy yanking Anakin's chain?

2-1B
11-23-2005, 11:09 AM
Yes Jim Jam, I'm with you on that for sure but even taking that text Xir posted literally, that doesn't conclusively state that the midis were popping out Sith babies but instead I think it's like what TDV said, that the midchlorians could be used to create life in, say, Padme for example to keep her from dying.

Tycho
11-23-2005, 12:07 PM
Good point Caesar. I like your pragmatic approach.

I was thinking more abstract I think. Such as how Luke's midichlorians were influenced to carry on the memory of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Luke's father - such that they'd live on in him and be able to communicate with him from beyond death. Anakin could have learned this from Palpatine, then anchored himself to Luke at death, versus Palpatine, Plagueis, etc. - plus he had no new apprentice (a Vader apprentice - Palps plotted to replace Vader with Luke himself).

Note how Luke adds forgiveness to the Jedi ethic to accept Anakin's spirirt - the Son forgives. Reflects Lucas' religious undertones.

Padme was never Force-sensitive. I don't see how the Sith would have even been able to save her.

2-1B
11-23-2005, 12:42 PM
EVERYBODY has midichlorians in them. That's how. :)

Darth Jax
11-24-2005, 12:31 PM
sorry i'm a little late to the party here. but referring back to the initial post that started this mess. doesn't qui-gon tell yoda (or someone) that a sith couldn't become one with the force, only a jedi could. i'll have to go back and read a few things. but i think it was in the novelization of the movie.

so while plagueis, et al could potentially clone themselves indefinitely i'd say they couldn't actually cheat death. as with so many other lines from the movies that are interpretted over and over to mean many different things "only one has cheated death" will most likely never be explained by uncle georgie.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-24-2005, 02:20 PM
I was thinking more abstract I think. Such as how Luke's midichlorians were influenced to carry on the memory of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Luke's father - such that they'd live on in him and be able to communicate with him from beyond death.
I don't think that ONLY Luke is able to communicate with them, but they can appear wherever they want. They only choose to appear to Luke, in the films, at least.

The only time anyone needed anything special to talk with dead folks was when Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to talk with Qui-Gon. I think that since Yoda was so powerful, he could talk with Qui-Gon without any extra knowledge, but Obi-Wan needed a little help. From there, they were all able to figure out how to prepare for death (except for Qui-Gon, who was, of course, already dead).

Arrgh, this kind of stuff hurts my head (spirits and whatnot).

jjreason
12-14-2005, 12:35 AM
I'm still sitting on the fence about whether or not I believe the Sith influenced the midi-chlorians to aid in the creation of Anakin. My inkling is that I don' believe that...... but without concrete proof, it's a hard belief to have either way.

I would agree with the assessment that the "spirit" Jedi (Obi Wan, then Yoda) chose only to speak with Luke, though they likely could have spoken to Leia if they had needed to. Even a basic introduction to the ways of the force (like Luke was given in IV while Ben was alive in his corporeal form) would assist him in comprehending how/why Obi Wan was able to speak with him "from beyond the grave" - Leia never gets that intro in the movies, and thus would have had (I'm assuming, of course) a much harder time comprehending.

It's assumption again to say that Vader didn't have a chance to learn how to "cheat death", he was a Sith Lord for 20 some-odd years (with a very adept understanding of how the Jedi use the force let's not forget) and would have learned a great deal about the force during that time. It's very conceivable that he knew the ability existed, knew how to become one with the force, and did just that prior to his body expiring during the events of VI. In my mind, this is how Anakin's spirit was able to join the party on Endor.

Rogue II
06-28-2006, 05:20 PM
I caught the end of ROTS the other night on HBO, and the scene when Yoda and Obi-Wan talk about this prompted me to search to see if this topic has been discussed. Once again, I'm late to the party.

Anyway, after watching that scene, I wondered how Anakin's spirit appeared on Endor at all. Did Anakin/Vader somehow teach himself the skill over the 20+ years between ROTS and ROTJ? I was going to suggest that he could have learned it from spending time in the Jedi Library, but if Yoda didn't know about it until Qui-Gon told him, that wouldn't work.

Daz
06-28-2006, 07:34 PM
The Xir All good points! However, for Lucas it just comes down to it's his metaphor for purgatory, and once Anakin redeems himself he reclaims the good and receives eternal reward for it. Personally, I don't like it either(:rolleyes: suprise suprise, I know ;) ) that "passage" has come down to instruction, I think it 'causes unecessary plot problems(as you have mentioned) and I think this demystifies the Force even more than the midichlorians as some have argued. But what I really don't like is the "young spirit" of Anakin as per Lucas' explanation because that was the last time he was "good". That's BS in my book, because If he is redeemed in order to receive eternal reward, than he is good again, and died with a good heart if you will, so the Sebatian ghost should never have been taken out!

Completely agree with Xir on this Lucas seem to have changed his mind on the nature of the force in the thirty or so years since the OT, in them the force was simply an energy field "that surrounds and binds us" that was neither good nor evil, now in the S.E Rotj apparently its handing out face lifts to killers because he did the right thing eventually. Its yet another example of Lucas tinkering with the originals to fit in with the PT(why not vice versa hey George?) and his new world view.:mad:

CooLJoE
06-28-2006, 08:09 PM
IMO, ideas like "the sith used midichlorians to create Anakin" or anything of the sort even FURTHER ruins the magic of StarWars. No offense, but those ideas are things that Lucas would come up with and use in a movie (crap, I hope he doesn't read this thread...).

I like the idea that we see on the screen, where Anakin is just born overly strong with the force (and yes, no father to bare him either) and becomes a great sith. And eventually his son, Luke, helps him reconnect with the good he still has inside, and therefore returns to being a Jedi (hence ROTJ. just sucks that his good deed had to be sacrificing himself....but atleast it was to save a powerful Jedi, his son Luke).


No sith creating Anakin. No multiple sith stuck inside Palpatine. No Lucas-style ideas. Just StarWars magic as we all remember and see on the big screen.

Devo
06-28-2006, 09:03 PM
Completely agree with Xir on this Lucas seem to have changed his mind on the nature of the force in the thirty or so years since the OT, in them the force was simply an energy field "that surrounds and binds us" that was neither good nor evil, now in the S.E Rotj apparently its handing out face lifts to killers because he did the right thing eventually. Its yet another example of Lucas tinkering with the originals to fit in with the PT(why not vice versa hey George?) and his new world view.:mad:

Theres also the bizarre series of faces Hayden makes in this cameo - first he looks embarrassed then he puts on his rapist leer last seen in Attack of The Clones where he's thinking about how much he'd like to **** Padme. Hardly appropriate. Furthermore Luke's reaction as originally filmed just doesn't jibe with having Anakin suddenly young again. Luke looks over once then goes back to the party like its no big deal that for some reason his dad has gone from an eggheaded scarface of advanced years to a goldenlocked young man while Yoda and Obi-wan look exactly the same.

I'm not an OOT purist by any means but I'll take the Sebastian ghost allied with the improved special effects and picture and sound restorations of the DVD editions.

Dominic Guglieme
06-29-2006, 06:45 PM
Palpatine is not so much a vessel of multiple personalities as he is a good liar. I assume the voice is a change in inflection, with the "nice" voice being a the deceitful one.

Tycho
06-29-2006, 09:26 PM
There is the thought out there that he is a vessel carrying many of the previous Sith Lords to immortality within him, and he's barely kept that from making him insane.

Their spirits stir in him as Anakin pledges his allegiance and becomes the next Dark Lord's apprentice.

JediTricks
06-30-2006, 05:17 PM
NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Palpatine uses his "evil" voice in Ep 1 and 2, long before he gets zapped, and in Ep 3 he uses it when he belts out "I AM THE SENATE" right before he starts to fight with Mace & the Gang.

Tycho
06-30-2006, 05:22 PM
I've read, seen, or heard stuff that Palpatine is actually the old, shrivilled Darth Sidious and he just uses his powers to make himself appear as the younger (but not by much), mild-mannered politician and Anakin's would-be father figure. The lightning reflected back on him only disrupted his concentration, or his need to maintain a cosmetic deception - as it certainly didn't transform Luke in ROTJ.

scruffziller
06-30-2006, 06:02 PM
The lightning reflected back on him only disrupted his concentration, or his need to maintain a cosmetic deception - as it certainly didn't transform Luke in ROTJ.

Yea cuz the lightning would not have done that to his eyes.

Qui-Long Gone
07-08-2006, 11:12 PM
Perhaps the jedi ghost issue can be understoond best as follows:

1. In the OT there were only 'two' jedi, Obi and Yoda, they die and become 'spirits.' Then of course Anakin at the end of ROTJ....So for all we know at that point, all Jedi become spirits....

2. In the NT, none of this happens to the Jedi who drop like flies in AOTC and ROTS (not to mention Qui-Gone)....of course we're told in several Q and A sessions with producers: "this will all be explained...."

3. Lucas f#### the issue further by introducing Qui-Gone's voice in AOTC, suggesting (at least to me) we may learn something about this 'ghost' issue...we get rumours that Qui-Gone and Yoda get a 'scene' at the end of Sith, and of course all goes to h### when Palps gets into his 'cheating death' lecture.....who is the one who cheats death? EVERYONE IS DEAD EXCEPT QUI-GONE....

When the OT introduced as (dissapearing) spirits, this should have been the way all NT Jedi die (at least in the movies) because the NT has done NOTHING to explain how Anakin became 'one' with the force since Qui-Gone taught Obi and Yoda....

Thanks Lucas....

Tycho
07-08-2006, 11:34 PM
I have to agree with Quite Long-Gone above. However, I am willing to accept a great Well-written EU novel that explains this in detail. Perhaps James Luceno or Timothy Zahn might pen it? Greg Keyes or Matthew Stover would also be good.

The novel, or novels, would have to deal with the movie era and cover all 36+ years of the entire 6 movie saga.

Characters might include Qui-Gon (in his past, when he discovers this ability - perhaps from a divergent Force-users group), Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin / Vader, plus Palpatine.

I agree Lucas should have handled this, but the EU book author will bring him royalties, so maybe Lucas is being all the smarter by frustrating us. LOL - I'm sure it will frustrate Luceno or whomever trying to write Lucas' way out of this one, too.

Qui-Long Gone
07-08-2006, 11:59 PM
That's exactly what make our beloved SW great and terrible...the EU can explore these issues in great details, but when the NT had some of this stuff in its grasp it fizzled to as tragic a fate as the 'Chosen-One.' I thought I read some stuff where producers said this issue would be explained in ROTS?:mad:

Have the EU novels addressed this issue? I thought I remember one where Obi was loosing his ability to speak with Luke from 'beyond?' And didn't the ROTS novel have Qui-Gone addressing Yoda before Obi came back with Padme from Mustafar?

2-1B
07-09-2006, 12:21 AM
I'm glad they left it mysterious in ROTS, referencing it but not going too in depth. :)

JediTricks
07-09-2006, 02:46 PM
and of course all goes to h### when Palps gets into his 'cheating death' lecture.....who is the one who cheats death? EVERYONE IS DEAD EXCEPT QUI-GONE....You can say "hell" if you want, the word appears in ANH and ESB. :D

QLG, you have a lot of good points, but you missed my favorite, the big "fix" that Lucas promised is the cheapest bump at the end of ROTS, "here's some tacked-on exposition rather than a scene to explain that random Liam Neeson line in AOTC", boy did I hate that crap. They should have not bothered with that mess at all, just left it a bigass question mark. Plus, it's another prequel contrivance, everybody and everything from the OT is born or connected to everything we see in the prequels in the most mundane and overly-direct manner possible.

My theory before ROTS was that every Jedi when they die becomes one with the Force like Yoda and Obi-Wan do in the movies, and is mentioned as such in the prequels even, but their strength of character determines how long they can maintain their individual identities before being dissipated fully into the Force. I think the Thrawn trilogy touches on this, with Obi-Wan's spirit talking about how he cannot contact any longer (I could be wrong on this though, it's been a while).

2-1B
07-09-2006, 02:56 PM
JT, what did you make of Crustakin at the end of ROTJ, how did he die and lay there a corpse only to fade into the shot later as a ghost?

I'm talking pre-prequels, here. :)

Qui-Long Gone
07-09-2006, 03:27 PM
You can say "hell" if you want, the word appears in ANH and ESB. :D

Until Lucas, or a Jedi mortician tells us where everyone in the NT went when they died, QL must not say 'HELL,' just in case they went to 'the other place.':D

Tycho
07-09-2006, 03:42 PM
how did he die and lay there a corpse only to fade into the shot later as a ghost?



Well Caesar, you see a group at a company called Industrial Light and Magic used CGI to insert the image of Hayden Chistiansen over that of Sebastian Shaw. Who knows why Shaw was even there in the first place, though. Oh -wait. I do! - It adds to the happy ending in case the teddybears didn't do the job.

maatu
07-09-2006, 04:00 PM
luke is on serious drugs and he wad hallucinating everything. i don't know.really. iam just wondering will there be new anakin ghost figure. not a rehash of a mold but something nice to get from hasbro.

2-1B
07-09-2006, 04:45 PM
It adds to the happy ending in case the teddybears didn't do the job.

no kidding.

Tycho
07-09-2006, 04:47 PM
luke is on serious drugs and he wad hallucinating everything. i don't know.really. iam just wondering will there be new anakin ghost figure. not a rehash of a mold but something nice to get from hasbro.

"not a rehash of a mold but something nice to get from Hasbro."

Maatu, are you sure you're not the one on drugs?

JediTricks
07-09-2006, 05:29 PM
JT, what did you make of Crustakin at the end of ROTJ, how did he die and lay there a corpse only to fade into the shot later as a ghost?

I'm talking pre-prequels, here. :)The aura of the Sith or something still surrounded him, the Force was like a doorman and wasn't going to let his spirit in, so it took longer for Yoda and Obi-Wan to pull Anakin's spirit into the Force.



Until Lucas, or a Jedi mortician tells us where everyone in the NT went when they died, QL must not say 'HELL,' just in case they went to 'the other place.':DYeah, but you can still say it. Owen says there will be hell to pay, and Han says he'll see you in hell, so you can say it and decide later what it means. ;)

2-1B
07-09-2006, 05:32 PM
JT, when I was a kid and watched ROTJ, I always thought Luke was just burning an empty Vader suit because I figured he disappeared after he slouched down and died...in the pan and scan version, it seemed like Anakin was just "there" at the end. It wasn't until I was maybe 14 or whenever I got the widescreens that I realized he fades in as a ghost because that format shows it better IIRC.

That's why I asked. :)

JediTricks
07-09-2006, 06:25 PM
I saw ROTJ in the theater first, opening day, I was 7 years old, and it was widescreen of course (the Grauman's Egyptian theater in Hollywood, sweltering waiting in that long line). When I was a kid, the thing that convinced me it was still the body in a suit was when the smoke started coming up from beneath the mask, the rest of the suit hadn't caught fire yet so I took it to mean that the thing inside was what was burning. Of course, that's not what it MUST mean, it might mean that or it might mean the cape has caught fire or the wood is burning up through the helmet. Lucas in the OT DVD commentary for ESB talks about how he was concerned that the big "I am your father!" reveal might be too traumatic for kids so he consulted a child-psychology expert who said that if it's too much for them, they'll simply assume it's not true (James Earl Jones says that when he was recording the lines for the movie and came across that one, he immediately thought to himself "he's just lying", so it ain't just kids). With minimal evidence, we might extrapolate other outcomes because that's what our minds were willing to accept at the time.

Anyway, my point was that as a kid I took it that Vader was still in the suit and thus didn't die the way Obi-Wan and Yoda did, then he faded into the shot at the end well after Ben and Yoda, and they were all smiling, so it felt like Anakin got pulled in late, and from there I extrapolated a theory.

In the script, Anakin is just "there" at the end with the other 2 Jedi ghosts, but the scene isn't written exactly how the movie plays out so Marquand seemed to have something else in mind.

Qui-Long Gone
07-10-2006, 04:50 PM
Yeah, but you can still say it. Owen says there will be hell to pay, and Han says he'll see you in hell, so you can say it and decide later what it means. ;)

There's the rub....according to Lucas you can saber innocent children, ruthlessly overthrow a democratic galactic government, cause your wife to die of heartbreak (alegedly), betray your best friends, tourtue your own daughter with probe droids, and drop-choke admirals like flies...but save your son from the 'old man's' lightning fingers and your good to go in the afterlife.....apparently payment in hell is dirt cheep and you don't see each other for long.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :whip:

Rogue II
07-10-2006, 06:08 PM
There's the rub....according to Lucas you can saber innocent children, ruthlessly overthrow a democratic galactic government, cause your wife to die of heartbreak (alegedly), betray your best friends, tourtue your own daughter with probe droids, and drop-choke admirals like flies...but save your son from the 'old man's' lightning fingers and your good to go in the afterlife.....apparently payment in hell is dirt cheep and you don't see each other for long.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :whip:

Good point, but you forgot a couple parts. He killed a bunch of unarmed Separatist Leaders, chopped off his son's hand and tried recruiting him to join the darkside.;) And I won't even bring up what he did to Dooku or the Sandpeople.

JediTricks
07-10-2006, 06:18 PM
Maybe the Jedi Filter took longer to extract the good Anakin from the bad stuff which is why he faded in late. This is similar to the original notion of hell, in the Jewish religion hel was the purgatory where one's eternal soul was forged clean so they could eventually be sent to heaven, it'd take no more than 12 months for even the most evil souls to be forged to good.

Tycho
07-10-2006, 06:51 PM
So Hitler's in the Jewish heaven now?

Qui-Long Gone
07-10-2006, 06:53 PM
Maybe the Jedi Filter took longer to extract the good Anakin from the bad stuff which is why he faded in late. This is similar to the original notion of hell, in the Jewish religion hel was the purgatory where one's eternal soul was forged clean so they could eventually be sent to heaven, it'd take no more than 12 months for even the most evil souls to be forged to good.

JT, I like the notion of a Jedi Purgatory; after all, Yoda and Obi didn't exactly fade into spirits immediately, it took Yoda the rest of the ROTJ and Obi stints on Hoth and Dagobah....although if that's the case (Jedi Purgatory), apparently a 12 minute stay for Anakin was sufficient and the Jedi afterlife is especially forgiving.

If Lucas was God, I can't tell whether we'd be screwed :whip: or safe?lol

JediTricks
07-11-2006, 03:26 PM
So Hitler's in the Jewish heaven now?I don't know, I'm not in contact with the metaphysical. But forgiveness is a trait of the divine, and if there is a soul-forging process then he would no longer be evil (but he'd suffer an extremely long and painful process to get there).

Dominic Guglieme
07-11-2006, 07:07 PM
The reason saving Luke bought Anaking a ticket out of Hell is the reason he saved Luke. Killing Tyranus, the Sand Folk, and the kids all had some moral basis.

Tycho
07-11-2006, 07:14 PM
Captain Needa didn't deserve to die.

Qui-Long Gone
07-11-2006, 10:43 PM
Captain Needa didn't deserve to die.

Because if incompetence were a sin, Jar Jar was damned long ago...

JediTricks
07-12-2006, 02:11 PM
The reason saving Luke bought Anaking a ticket out of Hell is the reason he saved Luke. Killing Tyranus, the Sand Folk, and the kids all had some moral basis.I don't think you have enough on-screen evidence to make that claim, not from the character's perspective and not from the storytelling perspective.

Tycho
07-12-2006, 02:53 PM
Darth Vader was:

an accomplice to the murder of Mace Windu
the killer of Jedi younglings as well as other Jedi seen in holograms
the killer of the Dark Woman, as seen in comics
the killer of Gold Squadron in their attack run on the first Death Star
the killer of Biggs Darklighter, Red Leader, etc.
the killer of Admiral Ozzel, Captain Needa, surely more that "failed him"

I'm sure the list goes on.

So he saved his own son? I'm sure that helps Captain Needa's mother sleep better at night. :rolleyes:

Dominic Guglieme
07-12-2006, 03:52 PM
One of the big themes in Star Wars is love. Vader was acting out of paternal love when he saved Luke. (Contrast this with his selfish desire to keep Padme' around, as shown with dialogue.) Luke was calm, and trying to stop a wantonly brutal military commander. Anakin was acting out of anger when killing Tyranus and the Sand Folk.

I have already argued why the Jedi were fair targets. The X-Wing Pilots were placing themselves in danger. And, as I have argued elsewhere, Vader has a stake in the Empire that they were trying to destroy. Killing them is fair. Granted, the Empire is needlessly brutal, and that makes the killing of rebel pilots spotty. But, the element of consent from the pilots helps to mitigate this somewhat.

Qui-Long Gone
07-12-2006, 04:28 PM
Darth Vader was:

an accomplice to the murder of Mace Windu
the killer of Jedi younglings as well as other Jedi seen in holograms
the killer of the Dark Woman, as seen in comics
the killer of Gold Squadron in their attack run on the first Death Star
the killer of Biggs Darklighter, Red Leader, etc.
the killer of Admiral Ozzel, Captain Needa, surely more that "failed him"

I'm sure the list goes on.

So he saved his own son? I'm sure that helps Captain Needa's mother sleep better at night. :rolleyes:

Really if Vader is guilty of anything, it's that he loved TOO MUCH....

JediTricks
07-12-2006, 04:54 PM
The OT makes the argument that there is still a "good man" in Vader, that Vader and Anakin Skywalker are almost 2 separate people, so when he's "killed", the evil Vader is wiped out like the Emperor while the "good man" within is freed.

The prequels portray this a little differently, making no distinction between Anakin and Vader because at the time of conversion to evil, Anakin doesn't really stand for anything as either a Jedi or a Sith.

Qui-Long Gone
07-12-2006, 05:19 PM
The prequels portray this a little differently, making no distinction between Anakin and Vader because at the time of conversion to evil, Anakin doesn't really stand for anything as either a Jedi or a Sith.

I think you hit the nail on the head....one of the problems I have with the prequels is the lack of definition Lucas gave the character in his choice to turn Sith....His choices were far more distinct in the OT, especially the throne room duel. I never really could buy into Anakin becoming Sith in ROTS, he didn't seem to really buy it himself, even telling Padme he could dethrone the Emperor...maybe had his confrontation with Mace been less a blindsided hand-chop (Oh, crap, guess I better join the Sith since I accidentally helped kill Shaft Windu!) and an actual duel, then I'd buy the turn to the Dark Side....this is what made Luke's choice so powerful....he was in a position to take his Father's place but tossed his own weapon exposing himself to certain death....

JimJamBonds
07-13-2006, 12:51 AM
The prequels portray this a little differently, making no distinction between Anakin and Vader because at the time of conversion to evil, Anakin doesn't really stand for anything as either a Jedi or a Sith.

He stands for wanting more power and protecting Padme... in that order I'd say as well.

Tycho
07-13-2006, 06:52 AM
You know, as Vader, he blocked Luke's blow to the Emperor in ROTJ.

Why didn't Anakin just block Mace's blow to Palpatine? That would have been easy enough.

However, he would have been in deep trouble if he did.

But just the same, if Palpatine didn't kill Mace, and Anakin had just cut off his hand, Anakin would've had to have finished Mace himself.

Qui-Long Gone
07-13-2006, 12:19 PM
[quote=Tycho]Why didn't Anakin just block Mace's blow to Palpatine? That would have been easy enough.

However, he would have been in deep trouble if he did.

quote]

Now that scene would have been AWSOME!! Vader vs Shaft....:thumbsup: .

JediTricks
07-13-2006, 03:40 PM
He stands for wanting more power and protecting Padme... in that order I'd say as well.The "more power" thing doesn't really play out, we get 1 line and no action supporting it, and protecting Padme isn't really standing for anything - especially once his actions lead to her death.



Why didn't Anakin just block Mace's blow to Palpatine? That would have been easy enough.

However, he would have been in deep trouble if he did.For all we know he did and just missed. My guess is that he chose to take off his arm because it was the only way to ensure 100% that Mace wouldn't kill Palps.

If Anakin had blocked Mace instead of disarming him, they could have talked it over I suppose, they didn't NEED to fight, or Palpatine could have zapped Mace anyway. I think part of the problem is that the scene was heavily rewritten and reshot multiple times so that Lucas no longer really knew where Anakin was coming from when he gave the character this action. They do something but don't know why.

Tycho
07-13-2006, 04:35 PM
OK, Palpatine lost his lightsaber (unless he kept the spare one he apparently had up his other sleeve). He still had Force lightning.

Mace could still block it with his lightsaber if Anakin had not cut off his weapon hand (especially while holding his weapon).

If the lightsaber had not fallen out the window, Mace could have done it one-handed as well (if need be).

Anakin might have helped defend Mace, but if he were deflecting Palpatine's lightning as well, and believe the lightning was killing Palpatine, it wouldn't make any sense to stop Mace from killing Palpatine in the first place.

Anakin never liked Mace too much, I might add. Mace was always hard on him.

Now Anakin needed Palpatine alive to learn how to save Padme (which begs the question of whether she was truly going to die in childbirth or was Palpatine sending Anakin those visions?)

He had to disarm Mace to save Palpatine. He couldn't very well defend Mace without at least thinking that HE was killing Palpatine by deflecting Force lightning back at him (and why did this not kill or deform Luke in ROTJ? Possibly because Palpatine's "fatherly looks" were a Sith illusion he could not maintain under such electrocution?

I think when analyzed, the scene was written well.

Anakin's logic after that was a little flawed:

The Jedi might learn what happened because they could read minds and Anakin returning to the High Council after 4 members died - they'd see right through him.

If the younglings were spared and kicked out of their home in the temple - there'd be hundreds of Jedi in the Rebel Alliance. They had to die - Palpatine said as much - not just because he was cruel to children - but for the security of the Empire.

Palpatine stretched it when he suggested the Jedi would kill the Senators. They might take control as Mace suggested they did, but they'd call for special elections and supervise them. It's likely that Padme and Bail Organa would return, re-elected anyway.

They wove a pretty good web that Anakin got tangled into. It was nicely done. ROTS is probably the most awesome of all the SW movies.

Qui-Long Gone
07-13-2006, 05:15 PM
ROTS is probably the most awesome of all the SW movies.

...Except for ANH, ESB and ROTJ....oh, and both animated clone wars series, if you watch them together as a mini-movie....and don't forget the Wookie Christmas Special....and that one with the Ewoks and the Little Girl who's family gets killed and that weird Endor Giant....

JediTricks
07-13-2006, 05:16 PM
OK, Palpatine lost his lightsaber (unless he kept the spare one he apparently had up his other sleeve). He still had Force lightning.

Mace could still block it with his lightsaber if Anakin had not cut off his weapon hand (especially while holding his weapon). But Anakin doesn't act until Palps runs out of juice. Mace and Anakin both act like they believe Palpatine is no longer capable of zapping anybody. I'm of course trying to point out Anakin's motivations for why he did what he did, in which we can't consider external knowledge that Palpatine or the audience may have.



Now Anakin needed Palpatine alive to learn how to save Padme (which begs the question of whether she was truly going to die in childbirth or was Palpatine sending Anakin those visions?)That vision was of a possible future, one that did ultimately come true, so I'd say it was just the Force being a jerk. :p


He had to disarm Mace to save Palpatine. He couldn't very well defend Mace without at least thinking that HE was killing Palpatine by deflecting Force lightning back at him (and why did this not kill or deform Luke in ROTJ? Possibly because Palpatine's "fatherly looks" were a Sith illusion he could not maintain under such electrocution? He wouldn't have to defend Mace, all he'd have to do is counter Mace's saber moves, at that point Palps could take whatever action but that's not on Anakin.

As for why Luke didn't melt, I think it was because Palps was the one firing the lightning which had that effect.


The Jedi might learn what happened because they could read minds and Anakin returning to the High Council after 4 members died - they'd see right through him.They do? I've never seen them "read minds" before, Vader can't read Leia's mind in ANH. They can sense emotions sometimes, but that's different.


If the younglings were spared and kicked out of their home in the temple - there'd be hundreds of Jedi in the Rebel Alliance. They had to die - Palpatine said as much - not just because he was cruel to children - but for the security of the Empire.But Anakin didn't have to be the one that did it.


They wove a pretty good web that Anakin got tangled into. It was nicely done. ROTS is probably the most awesome of all the SW movies.Totally disagree. The web doesn't hold up at all, Anakin never is shown believing that the Jedi are a threat to the Senate.

Qui-Long Gone
07-13-2006, 06:03 PM
So did we ever settle how Anakin became a spirit, when for example, Qui-Gon Jinn, who is credited by Yoda as the one who came back from the 'netherworld', is never seen as a spirit....only a vague voice over in AOTC?

And relatedly, is Qui-Gone the one Palpatine says achieved immortality? Afterall, surely Palps wasn't talking about his Sith master, who he killed, and therefore hadn't cheated death....

JediTricks
07-14-2006, 02:20 PM
I don't think we came to a concensus on Anakin's spirit, no, there were some good ideas but nothing that everybody accepted as it.



And relatedly, is Qui-Gone the one Palpatine says achieved immortality? Afterall, surely Palps wasn't talking about his Sith master, who he killed, and therefore hadn't cheated death....My argument is that Palpatine is talking about his master, Darth Plagueis, who did cheat death by living an unnaturally long life. Palpatine never said that these powers could stop one from being KILLED, only from stopping death. Darth Plagueis could LIVE forever but could not stop the one he trusted most from KILLING him - the same thing could be said to happen with Palpatine in the OT, if Vader didn't kill him he would have lived an unnaturally long life.

How could Palpatine have known about Qui-Gon as the Force spirit? They never show anything connecting the 2 characters, and Qui-Gon isn't alive, he's dead and is one with the Force, he's communicated only with Yoda at this point.

Qui-Long Gone
07-14-2006, 04:30 PM
My argument is that Palpatine is talking about his master, Darth Plagueis, who did cheat death by living an unnaturally long life. Palpatine never said that these powers could stop one from being KILLED, only from stopping death. Darth Plagueis could LIVE forever but could not stop the one he trusted most from KILLING him - the same thing could be said to happen with Palpatine in the OT, if Vader didn't kill him he would have lived an unnaturally long life.

How could Palpatine have known about Qui-Gon as the Force spirit? They never show anything connecting the 2 characters, and Qui-Gon isn't alive, he's dead and is one with the Force, he's communicated only with Yoda at this point.

I follow you, but am still bewildered by Palpatine's claims; cheating death, to me, implies immorality...which seems to be what Qui-Gon acheived....I feel the package Palpatine is selling to Anakin is not unnaturally long life, but in fact immorality....although you make good points.

Also, I just thought of a wild theory....we assume from AOTC and some of the novels that Qui-Gon at least tried to communicate to Anakin (in the Tusken Raider ambush)....would it be possible that even during his stint as Vader, Qui-Gon was able to continue speaking with Anakin/Vader thus allowing Anakin to learn to become one with the force at the end of ROTJ? Probably a wild thought and I blame Lucas for making this all confusing by not having all Jedi become one with the force in the new trilogies....

Tycho
07-14-2006, 04:47 PM
LOL - Palpatine did teach Anakin Immorality.

It is still a mysetery on where he learned IMMORTALITY.

Qui-Long Gone
07-14-2006, 04:56 PM
LOL - Palpatine did teach Anakin Immorality.

It is still a mysetery on where he learned IMMORTALITY.


Palpatine was a good mentor....

Do yo meen mystery?

Tycho
07-14-2006, 05:12 PM
LOL. I got punked!

JediTricks
07-14-2006, 05:47 PM
LOL - Palpatine did teach Anakin Immorality.

It is still a mysetery on where he learned IMMORTALITY.Oh man, you read my freakin' mind Tycho! That was too much!!! :D

I didn't even understand what he was getting at at first with "cheating death, to me, implies immorality" because I had argued in other posts that there was a negative moral issue to it, but it didn't fit in this current conversation and he mentioned Qui-Gon.

But Tycho, Qui-Long totlaly nailed you with "mysetery" though. ;) (yes, I mistyped "totlaly" there, and left it because it's obviously fate telling me to join the crowd :p) And then you didn't even notice he spelled "mean" wrong as "meen", so he did get punk'd. :D



I follow you, but am still bewildered by Palpatine's claims; cheating death, to me, implies immorality...which seems to be what Qui-Gon acheived....I feel the package Palpatine is selling to Anakin is not unnaturally long life, but in fact immorality....although you make good points.I didn't mean to imply that "unnaturally long life" HAD to mean a finite life, my intended meaning was the opposite in fact.

I don't see being a Jedi Spirit as cheating death or being immortal, Yoda suggests that when even regular people die in the SW universe, they become one with the Force, and from that perspective being a Jedi Ghost is someone who has become one with the Force but has been able to retain his "self" in that realm and gains the ability to communicate with the land of the living. Had Qui-Gon been immortal, that funeral pyre at the end of TPM would be pretty cruel. ;)



Also, I just thought of a wild theory....we assume from AOTC and some of the novels that Qui-Gon at least tried to communicate to Anakin (in the Tusken Raider ambush)....would it be possible that even during his stint as Vader, Qui-Gon was able to continue speaking with Anakin/Vader thus allowing Anakin to learn to become one with the force at the end of ROTJ? Probably a wild thought and I blame Lucas for making this all confusing by not having all Jedi become one with the force in the new trilogies....I don't think so, Vader is an evil man whose loyalties lie with the Sith, passing that knowledge to him is essentially handing the Force's biggest secret over to the enemy. When Ben faces Vader he says "if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine", Vader doesn't respect this statement and eventually the Sith pay for that mistake; when Obi-Wan vanishes Vader acts puzzled and doesn't show an understanding of its true implications.

Tycho
07-14-2006, 06:37 PM
Hmmm. I've got a farfetched idea: maybe after Vader learned that Luke was alive and set his mind on finding him, Qui-Gon's spirit appeared before Vader and promised him a way to reach Luke if he'd fulfill his destiny and destroy the Emperor.*

Vader's line always puzzled me since TPM: (in ANH): "I sense something, a presence I have not felt since..." Then to Tarkin: "I sensed a disturbance in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old Master."

Could he have meant Qui-Gon's spirit, trying to anchor itself to Obi-Wan?

If he meant he felt Obi-Wan's presence, why didn't he just say so?

Dialog re-written to directly indicated Obi-Wan: "I sensed a disturbance in the Force. The last time I felt its familiar power, it eminated from my old Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi."

*Perhaps Qui-Gon did promise him Luke's allegiance, but Vader wanted that cooperation to be with Luke on the Dark Side, hence his actions in ESB and ROTJ.

And while we're on the topic, Qui-Long Gone did spell "you" wrong and wrote Yo right before he wrote "meens." You didn't catch that JediTricks!

JediTricks
07-15-2006, 02:51 AM
Well, I'll agree that it's far-fetched. ;) Honestly though, it seems way way out there to me.


Vader's line always puzzled me since TPM: (in ANH): "I sense something, a presence I have not felt since..." Then to Tarkin: "I sensed a disturbance in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old Master."

Could he have meant Qui-Gon's spirit, trying to anchor itself to Obi-Wan?

If he meant he felt Obi-Wan's presence, why didn't he just say so?If he felt Qui-Gon's presence, why didn't he just say THAT then? Because there was no Qui-Gon in the story up until midway through the writing process on Ep 1 in the '90s. It's clear he's meant to be talking about Obi-Wan there, maybe he didn't want to say the character's name around certain other Imperials, or maybe he was just speaking in a more formal manner? Until the prequels, Vader uses "my master" a lot, perhaps that's the term he was meant to use, that's how he thinks of these people, not as people but as those above him (in ANH Vader challenges Obi-Wan's authority over him "I was but the learner, now I am the master!" as if he has something to prove there).


Dialog re-written to directly indicated Obi-Wan: "I sensed a disturbance in the Force. The last time I felt its familiar power, it eminated from my old Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi."Perhaps because it sounds bad. :p It screams "I am exposition, I have no reason to be here except to explain what the character would normally be thinking, and I need to be sure to tell the audience every piece of the puzzle even though it wouldn't naturally be connected that way in the character's brain!"

Qui-Long Gone
07-15-2006, 07:36 PM
I know Lucas claimed he'd answer the 'mysetery' in ROTS...about Jedi disapearing acts and all, but why wasn't Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC explained?

I agree that it would be far-fetched that Qui-Gon teach Anakin/Vader how to be one with the force, seeing as how as Obi put it, 'I'll be more powerful than you can possibly imagine.'

But what the hell happened when Jinn yelled at Anakin at the Tusken Raider ambush????????? Has anyone explained this? Was Yoda hearing it and not Anakin? Is that when Qui made contact from the 'netherworld.'

Tycho
07-15-2006, 09:21 PM
Yoda was high and smoking ganja in the NETHERLANDS when he thought Qui-Gon contacted him.

Then Vader put all that inhalation equipment he's wearing to good use, too. He also learned the power of "immorality" and took many trips to the Netherlands.

The Ewoks were stoned enough to think they could stone to death the Empire and hence they even won. But Luke breathes in all their second-hand smoke and trips out and thinks he sees Obi-Wan, his father who mutates from 44 years old to 22 years old right before his eyes, plus a spiritual, little green man, or gremlin or something.

Is that a satisfactory enough explanation for you? :)

Qui-Long Gone
07-15-2006, 09:40 PM
Yoda was high and smoking ganja in the NETHERLANDS when he thought Qui-Gon contacted him.

Then Vader put all that inhalation equipment he's wearing to good use, too. He also learned the power of "immorality" and took many trips to the Netherlands.

The Ewoks were stoned enough to think they could stone to death the Empire and hence they even won. But Luke breathes in all their second-hand smoke and trips out and thinks he sees Obi-Wan, his father who mutates from 44 years old to 22 years old right before his eyes, plus a spiritual, little green man, or gremlin or something.

Is that a satisfactory enough explanation for you? :)

That's actually a pretty good theory....I like it much....;)

TheDarthVader
07-15-2006, 10:51 PM
I think that some of these mysteries will forever remain mysteries. Unless a novel comes along and explains some of this, we are left to wonder and ponder.

dr_evazan22
07-16-2006, 08:49 AM
... (hence ROTJ. just sucks that his good deed had to be sacrificing himself....but atleast it was to save a powerful Jedi, his son Luke).
...



I don't mean to jump into a conversation that's been going on, but DV's good deed wasn't sacrificing himself, it was saving / protecting his son. DV dying as a result is the consequence of his actions. Anakin would've done the same thing to Palp's had he tried to do the same to Padme.

JediTricks
07-16-2006, 02:14 PM
I don't think Lucas explained why Qui-Gon's yell appears in AOTC to Yoda and not Anakin, or why it appears at all. And I think Lucas with the prequels once again forgot the "why" and real "how" of these explanations, he says he'll show Vader getting the mask and suit but the underlying issues of what got Anakin there are overlooked in favor of him just putting it on, it's the same with Sifo Dyas and the clones, and with Jedi becoming ghosts - he showed things happened, but none of the underlying substance.

Qui-Long Gone
07-16-2006, 02:18 PM
it's the same with Sifo Dyas and the clones, and with Jedi becoming ghosts - he showed things happened, but none of the underlying substance.

There's a good point....did Lucas, or any of the novels ever explain who Dyas was? Was that an alias Dooku stole.....

JediTricks
07-16-2006, 02:38 PM
Lucas said in the ROTS commentary track that it was "obvious" in AOTC that Sifo-Dyas was Dooku using the name to order the clones. AOTC also says that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who was killed before the clones were ordered, but not if he was involved in any way with anything or anybody.

Qui-Long Gone
07-16-2006, 04:41 PM
Lucas said in the ROTS commentary track that it was "obvious" in AOTC that Sifo-Dyas was Dooku using the name to order the clones.

I think "obvious" is Lucas' way of saying, "Oh, &***, I forgot to explain that one...":yes:

El Chuxter
07-16-2006, 05:46 PM
Unfortunately, none of the answers are onscreen. To get the full story, check out these books:

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Jedi Trial
Labyrinth of Evil
Revenge of the Sith (novelization)
Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission