PDA

View Full Version : The Most Expendable Chapter of the Saga....



jjreason
12-14-2005, 01:02 AM
..... is Attack of the Clones.

I can hear all of you screaming, but let's assess this shall we? I'll show you how I came to this conclusion.

The Phantom Menace

- establishes the core characters and their relationships
- provides an origin for the character of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
- propels Anakin on his journey to Jedi Knighthood
- introduces the concept of a Jedi prophesy during which a "chosen one" will bring balance to the force
- leads you to suspect that Palpatine is manipulating things behind the scenes
- shows us the first move in Palpatine's final scheme to seize control of the senate (without the invasion of Naboo he would not be Chacellor, if he were not Chancellor there would be no Clone Wars, without the Clone Wars there would be no army, without the army Palpatine would not have overthrown the Jedi)

Attack of the Clones

- builds on relationships previously developed
- continues the story of Anakin
- shows Anakin during his journey to Knighthood
- furthers your suspicions regarding Palpatine
- shows how Palpatine's ultimate plan develops
- sets the stage for the final act of this trilogy

Revenge of the Sith

- destroys some relationships and defines others
- reveals the mechanism by which Anakin becomes Darth Vader
- confirms your suspicions about Palpatine
- illustrates how Palpatine's scheme finally allows him to achieve his goal
- reveals the mechanism through which certain Jedi are able to continue to communicate with living beings after their bodies have died
- builds a bridge between the trilogies

A New Hope

- establishes a different set of characters and the relationships between them
- illustrates Vader's character as having achieved a state of near-complete evilness
- does not deal with Palpatine's story at all but does hint at the type of governing he is using as the Emperor

The Empire Strikes Back

- reveals to Luke that he is the offspring of Darth Vader
- reveals that Vader is capable of some emotion other than cold hatred
- develops the character of Luke Skywalker into a close approximation to a Jedi Knight
- re-introduces Yoda and Palpatine after 25 years
- sets the stage for the final act of the Saga

Return of the Jedi

- reveals how the character of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader redeems himself, bringing balance to the force and fulfilling the ancient prophesy first discussed in Episode I
- shows how Palpatine's greatest fear (losing his power) is realized
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course there are a million more "points" we could make under each movie's heading, but in one movie's case the verbs are different. The only purpose of AOTC is developmental. In my opinion there are no "key" characters introduced, and every key occurrence is reiterated throughout the rest of the Saga.

What I'm saying is this: if you had to watch the Saga in only 5 movies, you'd get more of the story by choosing to miss Attack of the Clones than you would if you missed any other chapter.

All that being said, I don't think AOTC is the worst movie of the lot - to me it's 4th out of 6...... but that's not the point.

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 02:02 AM
I beg to differ. Lucas should have started with Clones as far as I'm concerned. Phantom Menace was a travesty. A complete waste of film. I thought maybe Sith would somehow redeem it a little but I just painfully re-watched it again recently and came to the conclusion that I hope to never watch that film in its entirety ever again. The Prequels begin with Clones.

CooLJoE
12-14-2005, 09:45 AM
You've managed to leave out the fact that without Attach of the Clones, we would have no idea how the clonetroopers even came to be. Plus it shows the first signs of Anakin really leaning to the darkside.

I agree that if anything, the Phantom Menace could be tossed out and just throw an extra 20-30 minutes onto the beginning of AOTC to show Anakin get found, chosen, initial years of training, and then pop into what we have for AOTC. Really all that TPM does is establish Anakin being found at a young age, being chosen for training (we don't even see him train in TPM...what a ripoff), and Chancellor taking interest in him. All that can be done in a short 20-30 mins and put in front of AOTC as I said



If I had my choice, I'd make AOTC the first movie. Like compress TPM as I said so that it like glances over the young Anakin parts, shows him train as a young teen, then go into AOTC as we saw it. The 2nd movie could then be all the stuff that was in the book that led into ROTS. That book leads DIRECTLY into ROTS, so its perfect. That way we would get loads of Clone Wars action, see more of Anakin develop as a Jedi, and more adventures between him and Obi Wan and even better.....more between Obi, Ani, and Commander Cody (as well as some other Clone Commanders).

Thats how I would have done it. And I bet that way of doing the movies would have garnered more success from fans and non-fans alike. The other bonus would be no stupid antics from JarJar or the Naboo crap, and much less the whole pod racing scene, which looked cool technological wise, but was pointless in the whole story.

jjreason
12-14-2005, 10:56 AM
You're not arguing the right point, as far as I'm concerned. Based on the 6 movies we have before us, which is the LEAST necessary in terms of the whole story? That's the question, and AOTC is the obvious answer.

We can talk about which movies we like, which we don't, and what changes we'd make to them 'til we're blue in the face (and we do, just look at all the threads about it) - the point here is whether or not you could miss any of the other movies and get as much of the story as you could if you missed AOTC...... I don't think you can.

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 11:01 AM
You've managed to leave out the fact that without Attach of the Clones, we would have no idea how the clonetroopers even came to be. Plus it shows the first signs of Anakin really leaning to the darkside.

I agree that if anything, the Phantom Menace could be tossed out and just throw an extra 20-30 minutes onto the beginning of AOTC to show Anakin get found, chosen, initial years of training, and then pop into what we have for AOTC. Really all that TPM does is establish Anakin being found at a young age, being chosen for training (we don't even see him train in TPM...what a ripoff), and Chancellor taking interest in him. All that can be done in a short 20-30 mins and put in front of AOTC as I said.
Lucas should NEVER have shown Anakin as a child. Did we really need to see that? No. He could have started with Hayden as a young man who was already Obi-Wan's Padawan and a young Jedi full of promise. The Clone Wars should have began in Episode I. Episode II could have been like Gone With The Wind with Anakin's relationship with Padme set against the backdrop of the Clone Wars and of course Episode III all about the fall. Darth Maul could have lasted for all 3 films and Anakin kills him and takes his place as Sith Apprentice instead of Dooku or it could have been Asajj Ventress whom is my personal favorite. Showing him as a bratty, whiny little kid tarnished my image and respect for him. Yes, Vader was once a little boy, we all were, but it is about the man who became a Dark Lord, not some punk kid who builds droids, podraces, and blows up Droid Control ships. Yawn...:zzz:


You're not arguing the right point, as far as I'm concerned. Based on the 6 movies we have before us, which is the LEAST necessary in terms of the whole story? That's the question, and AOTC is the obvious answer.

We can talk about which movies we like, which we don't, and what changes we'd make to them 'til we're blue in the face (and we do, just look at all the threads about it) - the point here is whether or not you could miss any of the other movies and get as much of the story as you could if you missed AOTC...... I don't think you can.
"Oh, I don't think so." (to quote Obi-Wan)

As CooLJoE pointed out, AOTC is ESSENTIAL because it establishes the origins of the Clone Troopers and ignites the Clone Wars. It establishes the relationships between Obi-Wan and Anakin and Padme and Anakin and ends with there marriage. It establishes several political plot points between the Separatists, Banking Clan and Commerce Guilds as well as Palpatine's political maneuverings in the Senate crucial for their payoffs in Revenge of the Sith. Phantom Menace is the most worthless film in the entire Saga. Who cares about Midiclorians. I like Palpatine's explanation better than Qui-Gon's. Really, what was the point of Qui-Gon Jinn's character anyways? He is never even mentioned in the OT and how is it that he was the only one who found out how to become one with the Force in the afterlife?

The Phantom Menace IS the most expendable chapter of the Saga period.

El Chuxter
12-14-2005, 11:21 AM
The most expendable chapter, if you really want to get down to it, is Ewoks: Caravan of Courage. No Anakin, no Luke, no Wookiees, and (most importantly) no Teek!

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 11:24 AM
The most expendable chapter, if you really want to get down to it, is Ewoks: Caravan of Courage. No Anakin, no Luke, no Wookiees, and (most importantly) no Teek!

I refuse to even acknowledge the existence of those films. They are not even part of the Saga. If anything it falls into the realm of the EU which I would also consider to be mostly crap.

jjreason
12-14-2005, 11:26 AM
In my mind, AOTC only furthers Palpatine's political maneuverings and the relationships between Anakin and Padme, and Anakin and Obi Wan. If you were to watch ONLY AOTC, you would still want to know how they met and what the circumstances were by which Anakin was allowed to join the order. To just meet him as a Padawan, you're not getting a true "origin", and I'd much rather have Anakin's apprenticeship left up to the Expanded Universe bunch than his origin - but that's my preference.

The key point in the defence of AOTC is the revelation of how the army came into being, no doubts there, and seeing how Ani and Padme go from meeting as kids to a married couple IS important (though very painful to watch). For the story to work, we absolutely DO need to see those things..... but I still think ROTS and the OT would explain a lot of what you'd miss if you missed AOTC. I don't think the other movies go to nearly as great a length to re-explain the origin of Anakin. As much many people dislike it, TPM is a critical chapter.

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 11:34 AM
The key point in the defence of AOTC is the revelation of how the army came into being, no doubts there, and seeing how Ani and Padme go from meeting as kids to a married couple IS important (though very painful to watch). For the story to work, we absolutely DO need to see those things..... but I still think ROTS and the OT would explain a lot of what you'd miss if you missed AOTC. I don't think the other movies go to nearly as great a length to re-explain the origin of Anakin. As much many people dislike it, TPM is a critical chapter.

Critical?!?!?! HA!!! That's a laugh. TPM is completely worthless. What's wrong with showing Anakin and Obi-Wan already Master and Student and Anakin courting Senator Amidala? Yeah, the dialog was bad and that picnic scene and rolling around in the grass and riding the bloated cow things was lame but even if you had never seen TPM, you would get all the information you need about the characters and plot from AOTC.

jjreason
12-14-2005, 12:45 PM
I explained "what's wrong with it". You'd have to speculate about where Anakin was from, and that's too big a story to leave up to comics, novels and videogames. Your hatred for the movie is fine... it's not my favorite either.... but the information in it IS critical, like it or not. We don't know the complete story of how Vader came into being without knowing where he's from. Period.

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 01:01 PM
We know he's from Tatooine cuz he goes back there to find his mum. We also meet Owen, Beru and Cliegg. That's all we really need to know. Has nothing to do with my hatred for Menace. It's better than seeing him "grow up" on Tatooine as a spoiled Slave child working for Watto, racing in Podraces, getting in school-yard fights with Wald and building droids.

El Chuxter
12-14-2005, 02:10 PM
Seriously, I'm in full agreement that TPM is the weakest film of the saga. But I totally see where jjreason's coming from and I for one agree.

JediTricks
12-14-2005, 04:10 PM
The Phantom Menace

- establishes the core characters and their relationshipsI'd disagree wholeheartedly with this, not one relationship which continues on through the saga is actually brought to any meaningful beginning here.


- provides an origin for the character of Anakin Skywalker/Darth VaderOne which is poorly-received and doesn't resonate at all with later versions of Anakin, even the fear of loss thing is developed in AOTC.


- propels Anakin on his journey to Jedi KnighthoodAgain, in the most meaningless fashion possible, it may as well have been a title card saying "Anakin becomes a Jedi padawan".


- introduces the concept of a Jedi prophesy during which a "chosen one" will bring balance to the force"Introduces" it the way it introduces Obi-Wan to Anakin, flatly and without any meaning behind it. Not that the prophecy actually had anything to do with Star Wars before TPM anyway, it introduced a rogue element that barely got any airtime and could have been removed safely without any story issues whatsoever.


- leads you to suspect that Palpatine is manipulating things behind the scenesYeah, that's a great reason to make a 2 hour movie, even though it was shown clearly in AOTC in just a few minutes.


- shows us the first move in Palpatine's final scheme to seize control of the senate (without the invasion of Naboo he would not be Chacellor, if he were not Chancellor there would be no Clone Wars, without the Clone Wars there would be no army, without the army Palpatine would not have overthrown the Jedi)Except that it WASN'T his first move, his first move may have been hiding from the galaxy for a thousand years and then inventing this small Naboo senator, and we know for a fact that he was instrumental in creating the blockade which prompted the beginning of TPM.

I'm of the mind that all of TPM could have been summed up in AOTC's opening crawl and a few sprinklings of expository dialogue throughout the film itself.

(If I weren't changing TPM's central concepts)

Anakin bristles at Padme's comment that he is still a little boy.
OBI-WAN: Anakin, do not concern yourself with how Padme sees you, look at how much you've changed from when I first met you on Tatooine. Back then you were just a young boy with some latent Force abilities flying podracers and living as a slave, but soon after finding you we both helped save Padme and Jar Jar's planet and you began your Jedi training. You have learned so much in those past ten years and have grown into a fine young man and a worthy Jedi padawan.



What I'm saying is this: if you had to watch the Saga in only 5 movies, you'd get more of the story by choosing to miss Attack of the Clones than you would if you missed any other chapter. Not in my mind, without AOTC you have a totally confusing relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, Anakin and the Jedi Council (his relationship to the council in TPM is actually the odd man out here in my mind), Anakin and Palpatine, Anakin and Padme, Dooku and everybody, the Jedi and the Clone Army (though this never actually played how I felt it should have), prequel Ani and his fear of losing loved ones, Ani and Owen & Beru, Palpatine and the Senate, Palpatine and the Clone Army...

TPM I feel makes for a crappy origin story, it has some minor fun stand-alone Star Wars adventure magic to it, but when all is said and done it's a dog and really just wastes a lot of time saying very little.

Of course, I believe the prequels themselves are irrelevant to the Star Wars saga anyway, but I am not totally beyond considering the prequels for the sake of argument.



I explained "what's wrong with it". You'd have to speculate about where Anakin was from, and that's too big a story to leave up to comics, novels and videogames. Your hatred for the movie is fine... it's not my favorite either.... but the information in it IS critical, like it or not. We don't know the complete story of how Vader came into being without knowing where he's from. Period.Why? Until 1999, this information was not only NOT critical, but the few clues in the original trilogy had already done their job, and the point of the original Star Wars was that we the audience WEREN'T supposed to know all this prequel stuff. The Anakin origin critical? I think not.

Slicker
12-14-2005, 04:31 PM
Wow, awesome thread JJ.

I'm in agreeance with you mainly for the fact that I utterly dispise AOTC. I don't think the movie furthers the Ani/Padme relationship, the clones coming to be is not necessary to the saga (they could easily be replaced by conscription), the story is not pertinent to the rest of the saga itself.

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 06:18 PM
Wow, awesome thread JJ.

the clones coming to be is not necessary to the saga (they could easily be replaced by conscription), the story is not pertinent to the rest of the saga itself.

WHAT?!?!?! Then HOW do you explain the rise of the Empire and the conscription of the Stormtroopers? This exposition is ESSENTIAL to the entire conflict as established in the first line from the opening crawl of A New Hope: "It is a period of Civil War. Rebel Spaceships striking from a hidden base have won their first victory against the Galactic Empire." The Clone Wars are the start of that Civil War and establish how the Empire took over the Republic. Skipping Attack of the Clones would be missing the whole point.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-14-2005, 06:19 PM
There are expendable parts in all six films, IMO, but to completely do without any of them wouldn't do.

AOTC shows Anakin as a powerful guy who's actually weak inside, and who clearly wants something more than what he's getting. The whole Shmi dying/Tusken Raider massacre/"I will even be able to stop people from dying!" thing is extremely crucial, as it's what most of ROTS rests on.

The reason that Anakin is shown at three different ages in three different films is since George didn't want to do a montage of Anakin at different ages (he said so at CIII).

Slicker
12-14-2005, 07:07 PM
WHAT?!?!?! Then HOW do you explain the rise of the Empire and the conscription of the Stormtroopers? This exposition is ESSENTIAL to the entire conflict as established in the first line from the opening crawl of A New Hope: "It is a period of Civil War. Rebel Spaceships striking from a hidden base have won their first victory against the Galactic Empire." The Clone Wars are the start of that Civil War and establish how the Empire took over the Republic. Skipping Attack of the Clones would be missing the whole point.But is it essential? The Clone Wars prior to the movies being released were fought by the Mandolorians against the Jedi if I'm not mistaken so the addition of the clone troopers was to try and bridge the gap between the PT and the OT, IMO. Like I said I'm very biased in this because of my utter disdain for all things AOTC.

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 07:20 PM
If it wasn't essential then you are only arguing the point that the Prequels themselves should never have even been made. Ever since I was 5 years old and heard Obi-Wan tell the tale of the legendary Clone Wars I have waited to see the day when it would unfold before my eyes. I too was always under the impression that the Mandalorians were commandos of the Clone Wars because of Boba Fett, but there was always this striking similarity to the armor of the ambiguous Stormtroopers. So Lucas had a different idea about where they came from but his explanation is quite logical really. Mandalorians aside, it is critical to show Vader marshalling the Clone Troopers during the Jedi Purge in Episode III and thus how the Republic went from a benign democracy to a militaristic dictatorship.

Slicker
12-14-2005, 07:27 PM
Mandalorians aside, it is critical to show Vader marshalling the Clone Troopers during the Jedi Purge in Episode III and thus how the Republic went from a benign democracy to a militaristic dictatorship.Why is that critical? From what the movies say it was Vader that hunted down and destroyed the Jedi, not Vader AND millions of clone soldiers.

Maybe I am indeed arguing that the prequels should never have been made but I'm not sure myself but I do know that I personally try to judge the 2 trilogies on seperate grounds.

Warstar
12-14-2005, 07:35 PM
I agree that AOTC was weak in most of its story, but it did a few more things than you think.

It was part of the "build." That is, in Clones we learn of a new Sith Apprentice that replaced Maul. We learn where Clone / Stormtroopers come from. We see Anakin's love reciprocated by Padme and we seem them married- which is highly forbidden. We see Palpatine granted "emergency" powers that allow him to start his take-over. In the larger arc we see how Boba Fett originated, the introduction of the Death Star, and how everyone in the Separatist's get played and betrayed.

The whole saga- all 6 movies- benefit from the ones that precede it, and all of them lead to the one critical moment on the Death Star II when Luke's plea to Anakin re-ignites the good in a man long since doomed.

Anakin never knew his father, and for all we know, he didn't have one. The closest he came to a father was Obi-Wan so he says- but that would make Palpatine the Step-Dad and good GOD what happened there...

Anyway-

A father's love for his son- something Anakin never experienced but gave to his own child- saved the galaxy.

That's really special, and once you stop arguing which movie is "expendable" you'd see that NONE of them are.

And for the record- Empire is STILL my favorite ;)

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 07:37 PM
Why is that critical? From what the movies say it was Vader that hunted down and destroyed the Jedi, not Vader AND millions of clone soldiers.

Actually it was "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights."

I had always imagined the Jedi Purge to be akin to the Nazi Holocaust with Vader leading legions of Stormtroopers onto countless star systems hunting down renegade Jedi and publicly executing them.

If none of these plots points were essential, the Prequels themselves are pointless and the saga begins with Episode IV. You can argue that the backstory to the OT could have been left to our imagination but I for one am thankful that Lucas actually made these films in spite of my distaste for Phantom Menace. The Prequels were not totally in vain.

JediTricks
12-14-2005, 09:20 PM
Then HOW do you explain the rise of the Empire and the conscription of the Stormtroopers? This exposition is ESSENTIAL to the entire conflict as established in the first line from the opening crawl of A New Hope: "It is a period of Civil War. Rebel Spaceships striking from a hidden base have won their first victory against the Galactic Empire." The Clone Wars are the start of that Civil War and establish how the Empire took over the Republic. Skipping Attack of the Clones would be missing the whole point.Except that's not the civil war ANH's crawl is talking about, the Clone Wars end in ROTS, the civil war the ANH crawl mentions is the Rebel Alliance vs the Galactic Empire - a different war that takes place at a later date.

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 09:24 PM
Except that's not the civil war ANH's crawl is talking about, the Clone Wars end in ROTS, the civil war the ANH crawl mentions is the Rebel Alliance vs the Galactic Empire - a different war that takes place at a later date.

Yes but that is HOW the Civil War began. The secession of the Separatists from the Republic ignited the Clone Wars and facilitated the Delegation of the 2000 which led to the formation of the Rebel Alliance. You see.... I just proved that all of these events ARE crucial to the events leading up to the Original Trilogy! ;)

jjreason
12-14-2005, 11:29 PM
....... not one relationship which continues on through the saga is actually brought to any meaningful beginning here.

JT - the main protagonist characters are all introduced to each other in this movie. Regardless of whether or not you received it well, these are critical introductions that take place under circumstances that MUST BE SHOWN for us to see why the relationships develop the way they do. The whole "Anakin, you're still that little boy...." concept that he has to overcome to woo Padme is lost if you don't show it?


Except that it WASN'T (Palpatine's) first move, his first move may have been hiding from the galaxy for a thousand years and then inventing this small Naboo senator, and we know for a fact that he was instrumental in creating the blockade which prompted the beginning of TPM.

That's why my post says it was the first move in his final scheme. I appreciate how long it took Palpatine to get to that point, but the invasion of Naboo is the first broad stroke - and it's important to see it happen in movie form.


TPM I feel makes for a crappy origin story, it has some minor fun stand-alone Star Wars adventure magic to it, but when all is said and done it's a dog and really just wastes a lot of time saying very little.......

Until 1999, this information was not only NOT critical, but the few clues in the original trilogy had already done their job, and the point of the original Star Wars was that we the audience WEREN'T supposed to know all this prequel stuff. The Anakin origin critical? I think not.

See, it's all based on what your own personal expectations were for the prequel Trilogy. To me, the story is about Darth Vader. I want to know about him - where he came from, how he got his powers, how he got his suit, what led to his turn to the Dark Side of the force. I couldn't care less about the Tragedy of the Fett family, the Clone Wars, or how the Grand Army of the Republic came into being. To me, all of this stuff is background and only of any importance because it helps explain the story of Darth Vader.

If you went into the PT with different hopes and different questions, it would be very easy to come to a different conclusion about which movie is most expendable to you.

Kidhuman
12-14-2005, 11:39 PM
I have to disagree JJ. From G. Lu's POV AOTC is very essential. How else would he have explained all the stormtrooper voice changes in his brand new versions of the OT. He had ot put Jango in there somewhere so he could justify it. :beard:

And how else would we get the origin of Boba Fett???

decadentdave
12-14-2005, 11:55 PM
I have to disagree JJ. From G. Lu's POV AOTC is very essential. How else would he have explained all the stormtrooper voice changes in his brand new versions of the OT. He had ot put Jango in there somewhere so he could justify it. :beard:

And how else would we get the origin of Boba Fett???

Boba Fett's origin is really superfluous to the saga. All it really explains is why he is adversarial because of his father's decapitation at the hands of the Jedi. It does not explain why he is the most feared Bounty Hunter in the galaxy. In fact, I'd rather have known LESS about the character to preserve his ambiguity in the OT. George could have used Boba as the template for the Clone Army but he decided to come up with Jango as the source instead so he had to explain why Boba was just a young boy. Yes, it does explain the voice change he made for Boba Fett from Jeremy Bulloch to Temeura Morrison but it does not explain why the Stormtroopers still do not sound like Jango Fett. One theory is that the Stormtroopers were cloned from a different source other than Jango... a continuity gap that I have heard will be rectified in an upcoming novel or comic book.

jjreason
12-15-2005, 12:01 AM
Looking at ROTS, I really don't see what he was thinking including all that Fett Family Values crap stuff in AOTC. That's one thing I'll agree with decadendave on - when it comes to Boba Fett in the OT: the less you know about him, the cooler he is. I have some belief that we haven't seen the last of that little scamp yet though, there's bound to be a pile o'money made off that loose thread (live action TV series, anyone?).

Kidhuman
12-15-2005, 12:11 AM
I just wanted to let you guys know that I was being a smart ***. I completely agree that Boba should have been left out.

Personally, I tend ot agree with JJ. It is a chapter that could have been left out. What would have been sweet was if it started in the end of the movie, and then begun the clone wars for the main plot line.

decadentdave
12-15-2005, 12:35 AM
I will say this... the whole Zam Wessell assasination attempt plot on Senator Amidala was pretty pointless. All it did was set off Obi-Wan on some Dick Tracy spree like Ewan McGregor even said in his interviews and was a simple plot device to get him to go to Kamino to discover the origin of the clones. That's a pretty weak setup if you ask me. Attack of the Clones could have began with the Jedi council sending Obi-Wan off to Kamino to investigate the commission of a mysterious "army" for the Republic as ordered by the mysterious Master Sifo-Dyas. That's the real plot. He never did explain what that was all about. All we know is that he was killed 10 years before I believe by Dooku.

CooLJoE
12-15-2005, 02:44 AM
I still stand by my post. It explains why AOTC is important and why TPM is not, and its not because I hate TPM either. That is just how I see things in terms of which episode was the weakest and could be left out.

Think of it like this: we saw the OT movies without knowing anything about Vader, Luke's mother, where the Stormtroopers came from, what it was like before the Empire took over, why Vader became who he is, etc. And we did ok seeing the OT like that. We watched them, wondered, but still loved the movies as they fit together and created a story.

Same idea goes for the PTs if you remove TPM. You'll watch AOTC and ROTS and wonder how Obi met Anakin, how Anakin met Padme, Where JarJar came from (do we really care though?), and a few other tidbits. However, we would still watch AOTC and ROTS, wonder about TPM events, but still love the movies as they fit together and create a story.

Now try watching TPM, skipping AOTC, then watching ROTS. You'll be like "What is going on?!" because you'll be going from little Anakin who has a crush on Padme (although not necessarily reflected back by Padme), Obi who still had not taken his trials/tests, a basic Jedi Order with Galactic Senate controlled by several lead people, no galactic army, destruction and end of trade federation, etc.......to Anakin and Padme being married and having twins, Obi being a full fledged Jedi Master, Jedi Order but no Galactic Senate and Palpatine running things, a massive galactic army (that anakin and obi lead into battle...even more confusing why that would be happening), trade federation still alive and allied with others in a huge battle against the Republic and Jedi (that would be a sure fire "where did that come from" moment), etc.

Knocking out AOTC is like watching LOTR and not seeing the 2nd movie. Its harder to see a series that is already done by removing a middle movie, than to see the same series but remove the first movie. You miss more when removing middle movies rather than first movies. We all know this first hand because we saw the OT before the PT. Think of the PT as the "first movie", we all saw the OT without the PT and we still enjoyed the OT without a problem.

decadentdave
12-15-2005, 03:10 AM
Another reason why I hate Phantom Menace: Anakin's infatuation with Padme. Man, I wasn't even THINKING about girls at that age! There's just something not quite right about that. How can a 6-year old boy fall in love with a teenage girl? That's messed up.

Back on topic... A better analogy is like watching the OT and skipping The Empire Strikes Back. We would never know who Lando Calrissian was, how Han got put into Carbonite or how Luke lost his hand and how he discovered Vader was his father. Think about that.

darko666
12-15-2005, 11:13 AM
interesting thread, i like what i've read from everybody. but each of the 3 prequel movies have their flaws, they were written and directed by GL. yeah it's a cheap shot, but thats how i feel.

JimJamBonds
12-15-2005, 11:26 AM
Why does it have to be a prequel that is the most expendable. ;)

Devo
12-15-2005, 12:36 PM
I'm with JediTricks and CooLJoe. If you take the films exactly as they are and skip AOTC then ROTS makes for a very confusing film. Much less so if you were to leave out TPM. The latter two prequels' chronological closeness is important. Many of JJreason's points about what TPM achieved in terms of the overall story are nothing that would have been incomprehendable if AOTC had been their beginning.

- establishes the core characters and their relationships

In no meaningful way as JediTricks said. The Obi-wan and Anakin characters essentially did nothing in TPM that provides a necessary backdrop for their roles in AOTC. We have Obi-wan training Anakin and the two of them coming to blows at points - Qui-gon Jinn was never mentioned in the OT, ergo we weren't expecting or requiring him. He needn't have been in it all. He is totally irrelevant. In only two parts of AOTC and ROTS do we actually require to be aware of Qui-gon, when he yells 'noooo' from beyond the grave and when Yoda mentions him to Obi-wan - thats it. He's not mentioned in the OT nor is there any fuss made about jedi's disappearing when they die, cheating death etc so his importance in story terms if you can credit him with any, is completely worn out by the time of ANH. The OT required us to see Obi-wan training Anakin and we (arguably) got that in AOTC. This Qui-gon malarkey was unneccessary overcomplication.

And what of the Anakin/Padme relationship which will produce Luke and Leia. Yep very important and while one would hope for a better 'beginning' than we see in AOTC it does not actually require the so called beginnings that we see in TPM. In fact those beginnings detract from its credibility because of the age difference and the different worlds they come from (I don't mean worlds as in 'planets'). If we delete TPM from existence Padme's remark about Anakin still being the boy she knew on Tatooine needn't cause any confusion. Hayden and Natalie are roundabout the same age and they look it. So Padme referring to the 'boy' she knew doesn't need to carry with it any implications as to an age difference between them. It could allow for the possibility that when he was the 'boy' she was herself a young girl of the same age. And at some point they met on Tatooine.

- provides an origin for the character of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader

Well OK if you felt we needed to see him before he became a jedi but it was a mistake to have him so young and to then skip 10 years of his life because as JediTricks said it resulted in an Anakin in TPM which doesn't jibe with the later versions of the character. It also jars badly with the structure of the OT where Luke was shown from a young man into adulthood with no large time-gap. To watch Anakin as he appears in AOTC I don't require to have seen TPM other than because of a few verbal referances to the past.

- propels Anakin on his journey to Jedi Knighthood

Could have been done far better than it was. If by propelling you mean his accidentally winning the day for the goodies at the end of the film. And I've already implied I think it was a terrible idea to overcomplicate Anakin's journey towards the jedi life by introducing another previously unheard of jedi mentor. OT obi-wan never even vaguely hints at there having been a Qui-gon Jinn. Listen to his line in ROTJ 'when I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed how strongly the force was with him, I took it upon myself to train him as a jedi'. Thats not how TPM has it. In TPM Obi-wan doesn't want Anakin to be trained, he agrees with the jedi council and only goes along with it out of a sense of obligation to Qui-gon Jinn. I find it hard to be objective as you ask. As far as I'm concerned if something isn't done well and isn't consistent with everything else it isn't done.


- introduces the concept of a Jedi prophesy during which a "chosen one" will bring balance to the force

Whether we needed such a thing is debatable. Again I completely agree with what JediTricks said about this. Sure the occasional referances to it in AOTC and ROTS would seem out of the blue if not for TPM but after ROTS it will never be mentioned again in the chronology of the saga. We could easily get have gotten by without it in any of the films. Prophecies and chosen ones are such cliches by now anyway. I recall reading a good argument against this plot point in these forums, something about how Luke is an 'everyman' that we can identify with whereas for some reason Lucas felt compelled to make Anakin 'special' which immediately made him a less accessible character. So I don't see it as a good thing that TPM 'introduced' this element.

- leads you to suspect that Palpatine is manipulating things behind the scenes

AOTC does this aswell. While it was nice and also desireable to see his ascension to power the films could be viewed by a star wars newcomer minus TPM without any problem with regard to the machinations of Palpatine.


- shows us the first move in Palpatine's final scheme to seize control of the senate (without the invasion of Naboo he would not be Chacellor, if he were not Chancellor there would be no Clone Wars, without the Clone Wars there would be no army, without the army Palpatine would not have overthrown the Jedi)

Only if you absolutely require to see these beginnings as far back as his ascension to the role of chancellor. I did but thats beside the point. Not having them wouldn't make AOTC any less comprehendable as far as I'm concerned.

jjreason
12-15-2005, 02:01 PM
JimJamBonds asked why it would have to be a prequel that would be most expendable. It didn't, JJB, that's just the way it works out in my mind. If I'd thought ANH was MORE expendable, then I would have created this thread about it instead.

In my mind, wathcing the PT without AOTC is a lot easier than watching the OT without ESB (for whomever it was that brought that up a page or so ago). ESB contains serious and dire plot developments that shape the Saga, and it introduces Yoda to Luke. Absolutely and completely NOT expendable in my mind. If I had to choose an OT movie to miss, it would be ANH.

For the record, I also believe that each part is "essential". I don't condone watching the Saga without AOTC, and would never suggest that anyone try to do so.

This whole topic got started in my mind when I looked at my shelf after having lent my DVD of AOTC to a friend - I realized that someone would get nearly all of the story they needed by watching the Saga without it. But again, that's only my opinion based on what I wanted to get out of the PT.

decadentdave
12-15-2005, 02:30 PM
In my mind, wathcing the PT without AOTC is a lot easier than watching the OT without ESB (for whomever it was that brought that up a page or so ago). ESB contains serious and dire plot developments that shape the Saga, and it introduces Yoda to Luke. Absolutely and completely NOT expendable in my mind. If I had to choose an OT movie to miss, it would be ANH.
AOTC contains serious and dire plot developments: Anakin's turn to the Dark Side and his massacre of the Tusken Camp and his mother's death, his marriage to Padme, the beginning of the Clone Wars, the dawn of the Empire... Like I said before, skipping Attack of the Clones is like skipping Empire Strikes Back.

And how could you skip A New Hope?!?!? It introduces all of the essential characters for the OT: Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia. You want to skip from having them born to all being together on Hoth?!?!? Yeah.... makes a LOT of sense.



This whole topic got started in my mind when I looked at my shelf after having lent my DVD of AOTC to a friend - I realized that someone would get nearly all of the story they needed by watching the Saga without it. But again, that's only my opinion based on what I wanted to get out of the PT.
I could burn my DVD of Phantom Menace and get all I need from the Prequels without it.

JediTricks
12-15-2005, 02:50 PM
Yes but that is HOW the Civil War began. The secession of the Separatists from the Republic ignited the Clone Wars and facilitated the Delegation of the 2000 which led to the formation of the Rebel Alliance. You see.... I just proved that all of these events ARE crucial to the events leading up to the Original Trilogy! ;)Except that those scenes were deleted from the film before it was released, so they don't exist in terms of this discussion. :p Besides, it'd be Palpatine's machinations which were HOW the ANH war began, not the AOTC/ROTS Civil war which was just another tool of those machinations, it coul have been ANY machinations if not for AOTC. From what I have read (which ain't much) the Delegation of 2000 were complaining about Palpatine's abuse of emergency federalized power, taking power away from the individual systems and creating a separate Republic army where before there had been smaller local armies, but that's only defined again by AOTC and could have been anything from the point of view of the OT.



JT - the main protagonist characters are all introduced to each other in this movie. Regardless of whether or not you received it well, these are critical introductions that take place under circumstances that MUST BE SHOWN for us to see why the relationships develop the way they do. The whole "Anakin, you're still that little boy...." concept that he has to overcome to woo Padme is lost if you don't show it?The key word in my previous post is "meaningful". Your use of the "Anakin seen as a little boy" thing is in AOTC for all of 2 minutes, the only other time it really comes up is in front of Queen Jamilla and that stood on its own without prior reflection. TPM's meeting of the characters carries no meaning behind them, the Obi-Wan meets Anakin thing was played off intetionally by Lucas as a gag, we know it's supposed to be important so he went the opposite way and made it flat and small (he says as much on the DVD commentary).


That's why my post says it was the first move in his final scheme. I appreciate how long it took Palpatine to get to that point, but the invasion of Naboo is the first broad stroke - and it's important to see it happen in movie form.Again though, his first moves in the final scheme is becoming the Senator, and then the manipulation of the Trade Federation, neither of which we see. I'd argue that manipulating the whole Trade Federation into committing to an illegal blockade of Naboo was a pretty broad stroke. I think you're arguing that TPM's events are the first moves in his final scheme BECAUSE we saw them in the movie, but that's putting the cart before the horse. We're never shown Palpatine or Dooku actually manipulating the Separatists to separate and unite against the Republic, and we're never shown Palpatine getting Dooku to become his new Sith apprentice and deleting information from the Jedi archives and ordering a clone army from the Kaminoans, yet those are all crucial parts of Palps' final scheme, but we didn't need to see them to get it, all they had to be was implied (even if some had to be implied a little more strongly than the actually were, I'm looking at you Jedi Master Sifo Dyas which Lucas confirmed on the ROTS DVD was obviously in AOTC Dooku using that name to order the clones).


See, it's all based on what your own personal expectations were for the prequel Trilogy. To me, the story is about Darth Vader. I want to know about him - where he came from, how he got his powers, how he got his suit, what led to his turn to the Dark Side of the force. I couldn't care less about the Tragedy of the Fett family, the Clone Wars, or how the Grand Army of the Republic came into being. To me, all of this stuff is background and only of any importance because it helps explain the story of Darth Vader.Well, then it's a good thing the movies are called "Vader Wars"... oh wait, they're not. :p As you feel it should all be about Vader, that clouds your judgement of whether or not AOTC is expendable in the grand scheme of things.

Lucas himself felt that Chancellor Palpatine's manipulation of galactic politics to get emergency powers that he would not relinquish and could use to create an army under his control was very important to the overall Star Wars story, and I believe was one of the very small threads of the 1977 pre-ANH story that he used to make the prequels we now know. In my mind, that puts more weight behind AOTC than TPM in the grand scheme of things -- though Lucas has said that both TPM and AOTC are each only 20% of the prequel story he was working from, so it's not hard to see why depending on what you're looking for either of them could be seen as expendable.



I will say this... the whole Zam Wessell assasination attempt plot on Senator Amidala was pretty pointless. All it did was set off Obi-Wan on some Dick Tracy spree like Ewan McGregor even said in his interviews and was a simple plot device to get him to go to Kamino to discover the origin of the clones. That's a pretty weak setup if you ask me.According to the EU Holonet News official LFL site that led up to AOTC, when you read between the obvious lines, the assassination attempt was supposed to succeed, leaving the Loyalist Committe shy one of its strongest opponents to Palpatine's military creation act (it also had the secondary effect of satiating Separatist leader Nute Gunray's thirst for revenge against Padme), and in fact the failed assassination attempts did ultimately create that goal since the attempts made Padme leave her senatorial powers to Jar Jar who then was manipulated into giving Palps the executive powers he needed to create the army. Actually, I'd say this was one of Palps' more successful machinations in the prequels, TPM's machinations rely too much on a lot of chances after everything he expects to happen doesn't (that's another argument in favor of AOTC's importance over TPM's, I suppose).


Attack of the Clones could have began with the Jedi council sending Obi-Wan off to Kamino to investigate the commission of a mysterious "army" for the Republic as ordered by the mysterious Master Sifo-Dyas. That's the real plot. He never did explain what that was all about. All we know is that he was killed 10 years before I believe by Dooku.Lucas on the ROTS DVD commentary (as I mentioned before in this post) says that the Jedi Master Sifo Dyas thing was "obvious" in that it was Dooku pretending to be Dyas to the Kaminoans. I didn't like that he said "obvious" about it all matter-of-fact, a lot of us were confused by that in '02 because it's not obvious at all, though many of us did suspect it was the case it wasn't well-sold.


Another reason why I hate Phantom Menace: Anakin's infatuation with Padme. Man, I wasn't even THINKING about girls at that age! There's just something not quite right about that. How can a 6-year old boy fall in love with a teenage girl? That's messed up.He's supposed to be 9 years old, but your point is still totally valid IMO, and speaks to my theory that Lucas originally wrote the TPM script with a young teenage Anakin in mind and then just changed it (there is more evidence in the Illustrated Screenplay which the first half shows drawings of a 12 or 13-year-old-looking boy and then switches to the 7-year-old playing a 9-year-old moppet that came later).



Qui-gon Jinn was never mentioned in the OT, ergo we weren't expecting or requiring him. He needn't have been in it all. He is totally irrelevant. In only two parts of AOTC and ROTS do we actually require to be aware of Qui-gon, when he yells 'noooo' from beyond the grave and when Yoda mentions him to Obi-wan - thats it.And to me, both of those felt totally artificial anyway, the "noooo" didn't even resonate as Qui-Gon when I first saw AOTC (because although the "Anakin, Anakin" part sounded like Liam, the "noooo" definitely didn't).


...while one would hope for a better 'beginning' than we see in AOTC it does not actually require the so called beginnings that we see in TPM. In fact those beginnings detract from its credibility because of the age difference and the different worlds they come from (I don't mean worlds as in 'planets'). If we delete TPM from existence Padme's remark about Anakin still being the boy she knew on Tatooine needn't cause any confusion. Hayden and Natalie are roundabout the same age and they look it. So Padme referring to the 'boy' she knew doesn't need to carry with it any implications as to an age difference between them. It could allow for the possibility that when he was the 'boy' she was herself a young girl of the same age. And at some point they met on Tatooine.Heck, just from AOTC standing without TPM, Padme is a respected senator and former planetary queen while Anakin is a mere Jedi Padawan, of course she'd see him as "just a boy" even if they were only a year's difference in age. Advantage: AOTC.



JimJamBonds asked why it would have to be a prequel that would be most expendable. It didn't, JJB, that's just the way it works out in my mind. If I'd thought ANH was MORE expendable, then I would have created this thread about it instead.Oh, here I thought you were countering the claims that several others had made about TPM being expendable to the prequels, that claim comes up every few months and this one I took as disputing it and claiming AOTC was "more" expendable than it.

Well, whatever the motive, you got us all talking, so good for you.

decadentdave
12-15-2005, 03:07 PM
Except that those scenes were deleted from the film before it was released, so they don't exist in terms of this discussion. :p Besides, it'd be Palpatine's machinations which were HOW the ANH war began, not the AOTC/ROTS Civil war which was just another tool of those machinations, it coul have been ANY machinations if not for AOTC. From what I have read (which ain't much) the Delegation of 2000 were complaining about Palpatine's abuse of emergency federalized power, taking power away from the individual systems and creating a separate Republic army where before there had been smaller local armies, but that's only defined again by AOTC and could have been anything from the point of view of the OT.
Which is exactly my argument for why Lucas should NEVER have cut that scene out. Anyways, it has nothing to do with the argument that Attack of the Clones is the most expendable but rather an argument for the necessity of the scene in Revenge of the Sith. However, my point is still valid because the Seperatist Civil War that initiated the Clone Wars quite inadvertently created the Rebellion against the Republic. It is all a causal effect precipitated by those events and further reinforces the point as to why Attack of the Clones is NOT an expendable chapter of the saga. So really, Sidious and Dooku may have been playing both sides to seize control of the Republic and set up the Jedi when in fact they were, unbeknownst to themselves, planting the seeds of their own destruction by collaborating with the Seperatists.




Lucas on the ROTS DVD commentary (as I mentioned before in this post) says that the Jedi Master Sifo Dyas thing was "obvious" in that it was Dooku pretending to be Dyas to the Kaminoans. I didn't like that he said "obvious" about it all matter-of-fact, a lot of us were confused by that in '02 because it's not obvious at all, though many of us did suspect it was the case it wasn't well-sold.
Dooku may have been impostering himself as Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans but who was the REAL Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas?!?!? Surely Yoda and Mace knew of him. He had to have been sitting on the council when 9-Year old Ani was brought before them by Qui-Gon Jinn. That would have been about the time he (Dooku) ordered the creation of the Clone Army. How was Sifo-Dyas killed and to what end? So Dooku could steal his identity? There is more to this than adds up. Lucas may have used this plot as a McGuffin but the logic of which has not been explained.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-15-2005, 03:25 PM
Yes, it does explain the voice change he made for Boba Fett from Jeremy Bulloch to Temeura Morrison
Actually, Jason Wingreen did the voice in the original version of ESB; Jeremy Bulloch was just the body.

The whole Sifo-Dyas is explained in the New Essential Chronology (though I don't think I'm recalling it completely correct). Master Sifo-Dyas, who was a real Jedi and good friend of Dooku, learned of Dooku's plans to leave the Jedi. For some reason, Sifo-Dyas decided to go to Kamino and comission a clone army for the Republic without the consent of the Jedi Council. Dooku, who had been following Sidious, killed Sifo-Dyas, became Darth Tyranus, and deleted all mentions of Kamino from the library. The clone army worked in Sidious' plan so he kept it, as Palpatine.

I think . . . But really, I do think that should've been explained in the films.

JediTricks
12-15-2005, 03:47 PM
Which is exactly my argument for why Lucas should NEVER have cut that scene out. Anyways, it has nothing to do with the argument that Attack of the Clones is the most expendable but rather an argument for the necessity of the scene in Revenge of the Sith. However, my point is still valid because the Seperatist Civil War that initiated the Clone Wars quite inadvertently created the Rebellion against the Republic. It is all a causal effect precipitated by those events and further reinforces the point as to why Attack of the Clones is NOT an expendable chapter of the saga.It's all a rich tapestry. :D I do see what you mean about AOTC being less expendable because of that, though I would say the war itself didn't lead to the Rebel Alliance, it was Palpatine's actions which made the Clone Wars civil war the flashpoint which brought the Alliance's concerns about how the Senate was being run to the forefront (I know, that comes off somewhat convoluted).


So really, Sidious and Dooku may have been playing both sides to seize control of the Republic and set up the Jedi when in fact they were, unbeknownst to themselves, planting the seeds of their own destruction by collaborating with the Seperatists.I dunno, it seemed to work out pretty good for Palpatine until the end of ROTJ 23 years later. As for collaboration, there wasn't any really, Palpatine created a negative political environment, then he and Dooku manipulated certain systems into seceeding from the Republic and thus creating the Separatists, there was no collaboration because they themselves WERE the Separatists. I wish Lucas had been able to make this stuff a little more clear in the moviemaking end, on paper in the short version it does seem a little more interesting and Sith-like (I think Lucas got lost in AOTC with what kind of genre movie he was making, deciding to hide too many villain things from the audience a la Film Noir rather than seed them).



Dooku may have been impostering himself as Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans but who was the REAL Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas?!?!? Surely Yoda and Mace knew of him. He had to have been sitting on the council when 9-Year old Ani was brought before them by Qui-Gon Jinn. That would have been about the time he (Dooku) ordered the creation of the Clone Army. How was Sifo-Dyas killed and to what end? So Dooku could steal his identity? There is more to this than adds up. Lucas may have used this plot as a McGuffin but the logic of which has not been explained.I do agree that the logic doesn't add up well and hasn't been explained, despite Lucas' claim that it's obvious. As JabbaJohn's post shows, the EU gets quite convoluted in the matter, but Lucas saying on the ROTS DVD commentary that Dooku ordered the Clone army kinda nullifies the idea that Sifo-Dyas actually did anything. I believe Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master, but *not* a Jedi Council member which is why in AOTC Obi-Wan isn't familiar with his name but Mace is, Dyas couldn't have been a council member right before he was killed because he was killed around the same time that Qui-Gon takes Obi-Wan and Anakin to the Jedi Council in TPM and surely Obi-Wan would have remembered him at that time (and we would have noticed the guy). We know that Dyas was killed 10 years ago, but must assume it was after Maul was killed because Sidious only took 1 apprentice at a time so Dooku didn't become a Sith until after TPM and a Jedi wouldn't kill another Jedi and erase Jedi Order Archive records unless he was under the influence of the Sith. So there was a Dyas, he probably was just a regular Jedi guy and not a councilmember, Dooku killed him, erased the Jedi archives, went to Kamino and pretending to be Dyas ordered the Clone army. Of course George, that's *so* obvious! :p (The screenplay for AOTC makes it even more confusing as when Obi-Wan reports Dyas' name to Mace & Yoda over holonet, Mace says he's never heard of the guy and Yoda doesn't say anything about it!)

decadentdave
12-15-2005, 07:06 PM
I dunno, it seemed to work out pretty good for Palpatine until the end of ROTJ 23 years later. As for collaboration, there wasn't any really, Palpatine created a negative political environment, then he and Dooku manipulated certain systems into seceeding from the Republic and thus creating the Separatists, there was no collaboration because they themselves WERE the Separatists.
Palpatine manipulated the Senate into granting him Executive Powers to take whatever action he wanted against the Seps like the Bush Administration. In order to insure his political authority as Supreme Chancellor he secretly collaborated with the Seperatists (Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union and Commerce Guild whose leaders included Nute Gunray, Rune Haako, Lott Dodd, Wat Tambor, Shu Mai, Passel Argente, et al) to create conflict against the Republic and his actions abusing that political authority generated dissention among the leaders of the Delegation of 2000 whose members (Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, Fang Zar, et al) founded what we know to become the Rebel Alliance.



I do agree that the logic doesn't add up well and hasn't been explained, despite Lucas' claim that it's obvious. As JabbaJohn's post shows, the EU gets quite convoluted in the matter, but Lucas saying on the ROTS DVD commentary that Dooku ordered the Clone army kinda nullifies the idea that Sifo-Dyas actually did anything. I believe Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master, but *not* a Jedi Council member which is why in AOTC Obi-Wan isn't familiar with his name but Mace is, Dyas couldn't have been a council member right before he was killed because he was killed around the same time that Qui-Gon takes Obi-Wan and Anakin to the Jedi Council in TPM and surely Obi-Wan would have remembered him at that time (and we would have noticed the guy). We know that Dyas was killed 10 years ago, but must assume it was after Maul was killed because Sidious only took 1 apprentice at a time so Dooku didn't become a Sith until after TPM and a Jedi wouldn't kill another Jedi and erase Jedi Order Archive records unless he was under the influence of the Sith. So there was a Dyas, he probably was just a regular Jedi guy and not a councilmember, Dooku killed him, erased the Jedi archives, went to Kamino and pretending to be Dyas ordered the Clone army.

Obi-Wan definitely recognized his name and knew that he was a Jedi Master who was killed 10 years before. If Obi-Wan knew, so too did Yoda and Mace. Surely someone on the council could identify who he was.

Thanks for all the EU info about Sifo-Dyas. I never read the Chronology but I am glad to see it made an effort to explain this narrative gap in the film.

Warstar
12-15-2005, 07:48 PM
Boba Fett's origin is really superfluous to the saga. All it really explains is why he is adversarial because of his father's decapitation at the hands of the Jedi. It does not explain why he is the most feared Bounty Hunter in the galaxy. In fact, I'd rather have known LESS about the character to preserve his ambiguity in the OT. George could have used Boba as the template for the Clone Army but he decided to come up with Jango as the source instead so he had to explain why Boba was just a young boy. Yes, it does explain the voice change he made for Boba Fett from Jeremy Bulloch to Temeura Morrison but it does not explain why the Stormtroopers still do not sound like Jango Fett. One theory is that the Stormtroopers were cloned from a different source other than Jango... a continuity gap that I have heard will be rectified in an upcoming novel or comic book.

That gap was filled in a "Darth Vader: The Ultimate Guide" short story contained in the book. Vader finds a new source of Clones, and they mention that Cloning a clone is not a good idea.

From there, you would want an army to be young, and the Clones, with their accelerated growth, after 20 years might not look too chipper ;)

...anyone else like how Lucas changed the dragon call in Star Wars when Obi-Wan scares off the Sandpeople around Luke's landspeeder to the call of the dragon he rode on Utapau? I did :p

Carry on.

JediTricks
12-16-2005, 07:00 PM
In order to insure his political authority as Supreme Chancellor he secretly collaborated with the Seperatists (Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union and Commerce Guild whose leaders included Nute Gunray, Rune Haako, Lott Dodd, Wat Tambor, Shu Mai, Passel Argente, et al) to create conflict against the RepublicThe Trade Fed, IG Banking Clan, Techno Union, and Commerce Guild only brought to the table their influence, supply lines, and weaponry, but it was the thousands of star systems that also made up the Separatist movement and they fell under the spell of Count Dooku, who was in reality the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so I still argue that Palps created the Separatist movement rather than just collaborating with them.


In order to insure his political authority as Supreme Chancellor he secretly collaborated with the Seperatists... to create conflict against the Republic and his actions abusing that political authority generated dissention among the leaders of the Delegation of 2000 whose members (Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, Fang Zar, et al) founded what we know to become the Rebel Alliance.At first I thought you meant they formed because they knew that Chancellor Palpatine had been collaborating with the Separatists, but now I see what you mean. At that time they were upset about the unified Republic Army that would force the situation into Civil War, and Palpatine's continued abuse of his emergency powers which he had used to create a less free Republic (that would soon become the Empire) by curtailing certain freedoms and fostering inequality for certain alien races and member systems. They specifically talk about their concerns that Palpatine had gained control of the Jedi Council, had appointed Governors to oversee systems, had rendered the Senate powerless, and had "shredded" the constitution with many illegal new ammendments while subverting the constitution's power in the name of fighting the Separatists.



Obi-Wan definitely recognized his name and knew that he was a Jedi Master who was killed 10 years before. If Obi-Wan knew, so too did Yoda and Mace. Surely someone on the council could identify who he was.You're right, my mistake, Obi-Wan does recognize the name, though it's never confirmed whether Sifo Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council or not, and while Obi-Wan says he was under the impression that Dyas was killed before that, there's no actual confirmation of that either (though the mention of the name does prompt a brief look between Yoda & Mace, and neither of them correct Obi-Wan on the matter). Still, if we are to assume that Mace & Yoda not correcting Obi-Wan on Dyas' death occurring before the Clones were ordered nearly 10 years prior is a statement that it's factual, then there's no way that Jedi Master Sifo Dyas ordered the clones -- not to mention, why would a non-evil Jedi Master lie to the Kaminoans about having the support of the Jedi Council and the Republic Senate?

...and why did Lucas change it from the screenplay where none of the Jedi have heard of Sido-Dyas? (And the character's movie name of "Sifo Dyas" sounded too much like "Sidious" to begin with but the screenplay version of "Sido Dyas" is even worse!)

decadentdave
12-16-2005, 07:37 PM
The Trade Fed, IG Banking Clan, Techno Union, and Commerce Guild only brought to the table their influence, supply lines, and weaponry, but it was the thousands of star systems that also made up the Separatist movement and they fell under the spell of Count Dooku, who was in reality the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so I still argue that Palps created the Separatist movement rather than just collaborating with them.

Yes, I meant that Sidious was playing both sides and being manipulative to create the conflict that started the Seperatist Civil War, but in doing so inadvertently prompted a series of events escalating to the formation of the Rebel Alliance against the former Republic as a result of his abuse of authority as Supreme Chancellor/Emperor. Anakin even accuses Padme of sounding like a Seperatists with her seditious opinions of the Republic. Another arguement for the need for the Delegation of 2000 scene to be restored back into Sith. Again, all this just proves the need for the circumstantial events in Attack of the Clones to facilitate the plot of the consecutive films.



...and why did Lucas change it from the screenplay where none of the Jedi have heard of Sido-Dyas? (And the character's movie name of "Sifo Dyas" sounded too much like "Sidious" to begin with but the screenplay version of "Sido Dyas" is even worse!)

I remember reading that in the screenplay as well and thinking the same thing "of course it is Sidious" but when Obi-Wan recognized the name it was apparent that there had indeed been a Jedi Master by that name and it wasn't Palpatine. Anyways, I think the explanation that was kindly provided by JJ clears up the confusion! ;)

JediTricks
12-16-2005, 08:32 PM
Anakin even accuses Padme of sounding like a Seperatists with her seditious opinions of the Republic.Yeah, but that's part of a lost plotline where Palpatine was egging him on to think that way about her, the deleted scenes show the future-Alliance members in their first meeting saying that they are NOT the Separatists or seditious (good word Dave!), that they are concerned loyalists.


Again, all this just proves the need for the circumstantial events in Attack of the Clones to facilitate the plot of the consecutive films.Exactly.


I remember reading that in the screenplay as well and thinking the same thing "of course it is Sidious" but when Obi-Wan recognized the name it was apparent that there had indeed been a Jedi Master by that name and it wasn't Palpatine. Anyways, I think the explanation that was kindly provided by JJ clears up the confusion! ;)Yeah, I was fairly sure it was Sidious too back in the day, except now that Lucas says that it was "obviously" Dooku on the commentary track... frustrating.

JimJamBonds
12-16-2005, 11:56 PM
...anyone else like how Lucas changed the dragon call in Star Wars when Obi-Wan scares off the Sandpeople around Luke's landspeeder to the call of the dragon he rode on Utapau? I did :p

Time to throw in ANH and check it out.

decadentdave
12-17-2005, 12:28 AM
Oh, it's definitely there. I remember noticing that when the DVD came out last year and thinking "what the hell????" and when I saw Sith and heard the Boga I was asking myself, "that sounds familiar... where have I heard THAT before?"

Still, I miss the old Krayyt Dragon call. That makes more sense actually since they are indigenous to Tatooine and the Tuskens' could identify the sound. Not sure that the sound of a Boga would scare them off.

decadentdave
12-17-2005, 12:40 AM
Yeah, but that's part of a lost plotline where Palpatine was egging him on to think that way about her, the deleted scenes show the future-Alliance members in their first meeting saying that they are NOT the Separatists or seditious (good word Dave!), that they are concerned loyalists.


I like your "Politically Correct" grammar for sedition which is always perceived as an act of treason when it is in opposition with the ruling body. Anakin's accusation that Padme was sounding like a Separatist was a warning that her political views could be misinterpreted as treasonous to the Republic. Surely Palpatine would see them all as traitors in spite of their "loyalist concerns" for the well-being of the democratic Republic.




Yeah, I was fairly sure it was Sidious too back in the day, except now that Lucas says that it was "obviously" Dooku on the commentary track... frustrating.

I just thumbed through the Complete Chronology tonight and read the brief paragraph concerning Sifo-Dyas and it said that he was a close friend of Dooku's and that he had ordered the Clone Army for the Republic and that Palpatine found out and had Dooku kill him as a test of loyalty to become his new apprentice.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-17-2005, 12:18 PM
The Obi-Wan call sounds vaguely like a varactyl (Boga's species), but it's not exact. In the original, it sounded like a high-pitched squeal, then a dewback's cry, which was supposedly supposed to be a krayt dragon's call. In the new one it sounds less like a dewback and more bizarre. I don't have a preference, though.

And hey, I didn't make the explanation, I just repeated it. :D

JediTricks
12-17-2005, 04:03 PM
I like your "Politically Correct" grammar for sedition which is always perceived as an act of treason when it is in opposition with the ruling body.I'm afraid it wasn't my own, it was from Lucas, there's some variation on that "concerned loyalist" line in the deleted scene. Another thing the future-Alliance wants is to refocus on diplomacy to bring the Separatist worlds back into the Republic, but Palpatine keeps not going there.


Anakin's accusation that Padme was sounding like a Separatist was a warning that her political views could be misinterpreted as treasonous to the Republic. Surely Palpatine would see them all as traitors in spite of their "loyalist concerns" for the well-being of the democratic Republic.Lucas himself on the commentary track says that it ties into a theme where Palpatine was trying to drive a wedge between Anakin and Padme, it shows up in the deleted scene where the Loyalist committee members go to Palps and Palps gets all big-boy-pants on them about it, then suggests to Anakin that Padme may be not so loyal. Lucas puts a pretty fine point on the matter really, there's no altruism in Palpatine's eyes, Palps recognizes the potential risks for the committee to harm his ambitions.


I just thumbed through the Complete Chronology tonight and read the brief paragraph concerning Sifo-Dyas and it said that he was a close friend of Dooku's and that he had ordered the Clone Army for the Republic and that Palpatine found out and had Dooku kill him as a test of loyalty to become his new apprentice.That'd all be well and good except the timeline doesn't fit, Obi-Wan says Sifo-Dyas was killed before the Clones were ordered.


So, any more claims that AOTC is more expendable to the saga than TPM or the others?

Tycho
12-19-2005, 03:12 AM
I'll go on the record as agreeing with jjreason here. Nice thread!

CaptainSolo1138
12-19-2005, 07:26 AM
So, any more claims that AOTC is more expendable to the saga than TPM or the others?
I think they're both expendable (which is tough to say, since I love AotC so much). I think they could've easily been smashed together to make one really good movie instead of one crappy one and one slighty above average one. I realize I'm not saying anything new, but I wanted to get that in.

JediTricks
12-19-2005, 04:13 PM
I think they're both expendable (which is tough to say, since I love AotC so much). I think they could've easily been smashed together to make one really good movie instead of one crappy one and one slighty above average one. I realize I'm not saying anything new, but I wanted to get that in.
So do you think they're each 50% of the story, or does one have more content than the other (that'd make it the less-expendable of the 2)?

CaptainSolo1138
12-20-2005, 07:07 AM
So do you think they're each 50% of the story, or does one have more content than the other (that'd make it the less-expendable of the 2)?I think it's more like 30-70. TPM doesn't have many elements that, in the overall, grand scheme of things, matter. In other words, it's slow and boring. The "important" conversation elements could easily be fit into AotC once the superfluous dialogue in it was cut out. There were hardly any "action" elements in TPM that needed to be there. I understand that Qui-Gon saw Mann-akins abilities in the podrace and that Qui-Gon's death was the act that facilitated Ani's training, but these, too, could have been fit into another movie with the AotC stuff and been made more important events than flashy "look-what-ILM-can-do" type things.


It's still very early in the day and this isn't exactly a clear thought layout, but feel free to point out the holes. It'll make for better discussion this way:p

JediTricks
12-20-2005, 02:42 PM
I think it's more like 30-70. TPM doesn't have many elements that, in the overall, grand scheme of things, matter. In other words, it's slow and boring. The "important" conversation elements could easily be fit into AotC once the superfluous dialogue in it was cut out. There were hardly any "action" elements in TPM that needed to be there. I understand that Qui-Gon saw Mann-akins abilities in the podrace and that Qui-Gon's death was the act that facilitated Ani's training, but these, too, could have been fit into another movie with the AotC stuff and been made more important events than flashy "look-what-ILM-can-do" type things.

It's still very early in the day and this isn't exactly a clear thought layout, but feel free to point out the holes. It'll make for better discussion this way:pPoint out the holes? It's nearly the same argument that I made, except I was thinking more 10-90 than 30-70, other than the percentages I totally agree with you. If it's 30-70 though, then doesn't that make TPM "more expendable" than AOTC? That's all I was getting at in the previous post. :D