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View Full Version : Should we think of Jango & Boba as separate people?



JediTricks
12-15-2005, 02:24 PM
I know that's how it's presented in the movie, but hear me out. We all complain that Boba Fett was watered down because of his AOTC storyline, and I'd agree to that if we accept Boba Fett as the son of Jango. But Jango is now the mysterious armored bounty hunter we know nothing about, and Boba is a CLONE of Jango. Sure, Jango and Boba played up the "father and son" relationship, but if you skew the way you view it, then perhaps Jango was looking not to build a family but to ensure that he lived past his time, so viewing their relationship from the notion that Jango was actually being selfish instead of loving, what you end up with is Boba Fett as just an extension of the mysterious Jango Fett and thus still cool (except for a short period where he was a doofy kid who loved his daddy in AOTC ;)). I'm not really sure I'm getting my idea across the way it appears in my mind, but hopefully I've planted some seeds which may lessen the Boba Fett origin problems a lot of us have.

Kidhuman
12-15-2005, 02:48 PM
Boba Fett is an ARC trooper with different armor to me after I saw it in AOTC. You are correct in stating that he is an extension of Jango. Boba Fett was a great character to the OT, but seeing him as a kid and aas a clone in AOTC killed the mystique to alot of us. It also changed alot of the OT.

I had always though stormies were just regular people in armor, but now we find out they are clones and the same as Boba Fett which is ridiculous.

JediTricks
12-15-2005, 03:06 PM
Well, Boba being a clone of Jango could still work I think if we change how we view the clone, maybe the "father & son" dynamic was just an inside joke to the duo (that'd explain the over-the-top silly delivery of it from Baby Boba ;)) and perhaps Jango is just another extension clone in a line of extension clones, Quoda Fett cloned himself and lived on as Jango, and Jango lives on as Boba, they take new first names to avoid attracting undue attention, something like that. Remember that Boba is the only unaltered clone, he's not programmed like the troopers and doesn't live half as long.

The stormtroopers I am still confident are individuals or clones of many different individuals, they're all different heights and stuff and they act differently, I think Lucas has said that with Jango dead the clonable donor tissue dries up and thins out the clonetrooper line, that'd make sense, and then they get recruits to fill the void as the clones start growing too old to be useful about 10 years after ROTS.

decadentdave
12-15-2005, 07:38 PM
A Clone is only a copy of the original biologically/genetically. Personality is developed unique to the individual which is why the Clone Troopers themselves began assuming individual names and identities characteristic to themselves. A terrific example of this is in James Luceno's new novel Dark Lord which has troopers with names like Climber and Salvo who disobeyed Order 66 because of their loyalty to their Jedi Generals. Commander Salvo questioned his own programming based on his experiences in the field which individualized himself from the other Clone Commanders. A person is merely the sum of their experiences. All humans are born with a proverbial "blank slate" or Tabula Rasa onto which our identity/personality is developed. Boba Fett is no exception. He is his own man.

sith_killer_99
12-15-2005, 08:51 PM
I have to agree with decadentdave here.

It's like identical twins. They are 2 seperate people with different life experiences that make up who they are, they share the same genetic material, but that's it. In the end they each make their own choices and decide for themselves how they want to live and what kind of person they want to be.

They are 2 completely differnt people who happen to share the same genetic traits.:yes:

El Chuxter
12-15-2005, 10:43 PM
Boba = Cool guy we all grew up with.

Jango = Shameless marketing ploy to get fans of the OT who hated TPM to like AOTC.

Yeah, they're both marketing ploys, but one is cool and the other is, well, cool but not as cool. I'd say two different fellas.

decadentdave
12-15-2005, 11:17 PM
Boba = Cool guy we all grew up with.

Jango = Shameless marketing ploy to get fans of the OT who hated TPM to like AOTC.

Yeah, they're both marketing ploys, but one is cool and the other is, well, cool but not as cool. I'd say two different fellas.

Boba Fett is the most overrated character in the entire saga. Jango actually did more for the saga than Boba ever did. I am so sick of all the fans who think Boba is the bomb when all he did was stand around and look cool, say about 4 lines of dialog, take pot shots at Luke, and get his rocket pack ignited by a skiff pike by a blind Han Solo causing him to fly out of control into the mouth of the Sarlaac.

And all you EU lovers out there don't EVEN bring his non-canonical escape from the Sarlaac into this.

JediTricks
12-16-2005, 06:12 PM
A Clone is only a copy of the original biologically/genetically. Personality is developed unique to the individual which is why the Clone Troopers themselves began assuming individual names and identities characteristic to themselves.Except that the Clone Troopers weren't developed individually, and didn't name themselves, and in the movies anyway didn't have unique identities except for specially-trained troopers (and even then I'm not sure how much was unique identity and how much was just seeing a leadership role expressing differences in the same identity). Boba wasn't raised by a mom and a dad giving a blended personality of the 2, just Jango - I've known people who were raised from an early age by just 1 parent who grew up to act exactly the way their parents did, the parent would express an opinion on something they had read and the kid would parrot it even if he hadn't seen it.


A person is merely the sum of their experiences. All humans are born with a proverbial "blank slate" or Tabula Rasa onto which our identity/personality is developed. Boba Fett is no exception. He is his own man.A person is not just the sum of his experiences, there are engrained personality traits that come from the parents as well as ones that come from eons of human nature, since Jango raised Boba from birth to adolencence without a mother's genetic material or influence, closely controlling his upbringing, Jango got to choose both the experiences path and the engrained personality traits received from his parentage.



It's like identical twins. They are 2 seperate people with different life experiences that make up who they are, they share the same genetic material, but that's it. In the end they each make their own choices and decide for themselves how they want to live and what kind of person they want to be.

They are 2 completely differnt people who happen to share the same genetic traits.:yes:There are lots of stories of twins separated at birth who meet much later in life to find that they share many similar personality traits, there have been cases of identical IQs, cases where they had the same jobs, cases where they sought and married similar mates, had kids at the same time, named their kids the same things, similar mannerisms and speech patterns, the same religious affiliations, similar medical needs such as the same prescription of glasses at the same time... for example, from an article in Psychology Today:
Barbara Herbert, a plump 58-year-old with a broad, pretty face and short, silver hair, found her lost twin, Daphne Goodship, 18 years ago. Both had been adopted as babies into separate British families after their Finnish single mother killed herself.

The concordances in their lives send a shiver up the spine: both women grew up in towns outside of London, left school at 14, fell down stairs at 15 and weakened their ankles, went to work in local government, met their future husbands at age 16 at the Town Hall dance, miscarried in the same month, then gave birth to two boys and a girl. Both tinted their hair auburn when young, were squeamish about blood and heights, and drank their coffee cold. When they met, both were wearing cream-colored dresses and brown velvet jackets. Both had the same crooked little fingers, a habit of pushing up their nose with the palm of their hand--which both nicknamed "squidging"--and a way of bursting into laughter that soon had people referring to them as the Giggle Twins. The two have been studied for years now at the University of Minnesotaís Center for Twin and Adoption Research, founded by Thomas J. Bouchard, Ph.D. It is the largest, ongoing study of separated twins in the world, with nearly 100 pairs registered, and they are poked, probed, and prodded by psychologists, psychiatrists, cardiologists, dentists, ophthalmologists, pathologists, and geneticists, testing everything from blood pressure to dental caries.

At the center, it was discovered that the two women had the same heart murmurs, thyroid problems, and allergies as well as IQ's a point apart. The two showed remarkably similar personalities on psychological tests. So do the other sets of twins--in fact, the genetic influence is pervasive across most domains tested. Another set of twins had been reunited in a hotel room when they were young adults, and as they unpacked found that they used the same brand of shaving lotion (Canoe), hair tonic (Vitalis), and toothpaste (Vademecum). They both smoked Lucky Strikes, and after they met they returned to their separate cities and mailed each other identical birthday presents. Other pairs have discovered they like to read magazines from back to front, store rubber bands on their wrists, or enter the ocean backwards and only up to their knees. Candid photos of every pair of twins in the study show virtually all the identicals posed the same way; while fraternal twins positioned hands and arms differently.

Kidhuman
12-16-2005, 06:17 PM
Ummm...JT, I never posted that about identical twins, twas SK99

decadentdave
12-16-2005, 06:27 PM
Just because a person shares similar genetic traits does not make them the same person. We can inheirit the same genetic traits from our parents and similar personality traits, values, habits, etc. I am not the same person as my father. We have many differences and many similarites. My father had gallbladder problems which I had inheirited from him. Personality-wise, we have many similarites and many differences. I am not my father, nor would I want to be. We are unique and different individuals.

The Clones are the same way. After several years serving on the front lines they began to develop individual identities but were still obedient to their genetic programming. The Stormtroopers were striped of individual identities... possibly by Palpatine himself who saw individuality among his troops as a threat to his New Order... and thus were identified only by number such as TK-421.

I, however, am not a number. I am a FREE MAN!!!

sith_killer_99
12-16-2005, 06:41 PM
Yep, that was I.


There are lots of stories of twins separated at birth who meet much later in life to find that they share many similar personality traits, there have been cases of identical IQs, cases where they had the same jobs, cases where they sought and married similar mates, had kids at the same time, named their kids the same things, similar mannerisms and speech patterns, the same religious affiliations, similar medical needs such as the same prescription of glasses at the same time... for example, from an article in Psychology Today:

Yes, but then again not all of those cases involve twins from the same egg. Those that do share the same genetic code are obviously going to have the same genetic traits, heart conditions, allergies, etc. Also there are cases of identical twins where one twin grows up and turns to a life of crime while the other twin becomes a cop.

In any event the nature vs nurture arguement is moot. If you ask every twin if they are their own person seperate and distict I guarantee they will all give you the same answer "Yes! I am me, I am not my brother/sister." They share similarities but they are each their own person. Try telling them otherwise and you will probably get a pretty nasty reaction.:D

JediTricks
12-16-2005, 07:21 PM
Ummm...JT, I never posted that about identical twins, twas SK99
You sir, are correct. I had too many thread windows open at the time and got confused. I will edit my post to reflect the proper author.



Just because a person shares similar genetic traits does not make them the same person. We can inheirit the same genetic traits from our parents and similar personality traits, values, habits, etc. I am not the same person as my father. We have many differences and many similarites. My father had gallbladder problems which I had inheirited from him. Personality-wise, we have many similarites and many differences. I am not my father, nor would I want to be. We are unique and different individuals.But we aren't talking about "similar genetic traits", we're talking about IDENTICAL genetic traits, clones. And you were raised by more than 1 person while Boba was raised only by Jango.

decadentdave
12-16-2005, 07:59 PM
But we aren't talking about "similar genetic traits", we're talking about IDENTICAL genetic traits, clones. And you were raised by more than 1 person while Boba was raised only by Jango.

Like I said before, a Clone is an exact copy genetically/biologically but the psychological "personality" if you will is the sum of his experiences, environment, etc. all of which shape the personality of the individual. I think what you are suggesting, JediTricks, is the age-old argument of the human "Soul." Is there a Soul? Depends on who you ask and what their personal beliefs are. For purposes of this discussion we will refer to the "Soul" as the psyche or consciousness of the individual that differentiates the personality from the social collective.

I could donate myself as a template for a society of clones and I gurantee you that each and every one will be raised under a different environment, circumstances, and conditions, all of which will help to shape and define a unique personality or "Soul" that distinguishes each clone of myself apart from myself. If I wanted to create an "extension" of myself, that is, to achieve a "virtual immortality", a clone would simply not suffice because it is just a biological copy. Even if I could somehow implant all of my memories into that clone, it still is not ME. Everything about that clone now continues with my subsequent personality and my legacy in every exacting detail but it still does not retain my "Soul" or my consciousness. I cannot exist in two bodies simultaneously. Consciousness then becomes the line of dilineation between us.

JediTricks
12-16-2005, 08:25 PM
Yes, but then again not all of those cases involve twins from the same egg. Those that do share the same genetic code are obviously going to have the same genetic traits, heart conditions, allergies, etc. Also there are cases of identical twins where one twin grows up and turns to a life of crime while the other twin becomes a cop.Sometimes, but we're talking about the Star Wars universe and clones, it's a simplification and I think it's a safe one to say that Boba being a clone of Jango, raised by only Jango, would make Boba a continuation of Jango.


In any event the nature vs nurture arguement is moot. If you ask every twin if they are their own person seperate and distict I guarantee they will all give you the same answer "Yes! I am me, I am not my brother/sister." They share similarities but they are each their own person. Try telling them otherwise and you will probably get a pretty nasty reaction.:DBut none of them were raised BY their twin, in this case Boba is a direct clone raised by the original, it's a different set of circumstances.



Like I said before, a Clone is an exact copy genetically/biologically but the psychological "personality" if you will is the sum of his experiences, environment, etc. all of which shape the personality of the individual. I think what you are suggesting, JediTricks, is the age-old argument of the human "Soul." Is there a Soul? Depends on who you ask and what their personal beliefs are. For purposes of this discussion we will refer to the "Soul" as the psyche or consciousness of the individual that differentiates the personality from the social collective.No, I'm talking about the simplified Star Wars equivelent of the issue, not the real world application. Jango alone taught Boba, and he taught him what Jango wanted his clone to know, so while Boba eventually will become his own man, that is built upon Jango's upbringing, hence an extension of Jango, furthering the progression of the Jango character through its clone, Boba has the upbringing and cumulative experiences of Jango and then takes that into a new realm.


I could donate myself as a template for a society of clones and I gurantee you that each and every one will be raised under a different environment, circumstances, and conditions, all of which will help to shape and define a unique personality or "Soul" that distinguishes each clone of myself apart from myself.BUT the clone troopers were raised in the same environment, circumstances, and conditions, and Boba was raised by Jango alone.


If I wanted to create an "extension" of myself, that is, to achieve a "virtual immortality", a clone would simply not suffice because it is just a biological copy. Even if I could somehow implant all of my memories into that clone, it still is not ME. Everything about that clone now continues with my subsequent personality and my legacy in every exacting detail but it still does not retain my "Soul" or my consciousness. I cannot exist in two bodies simultaneously. Consciousness then becomes the line of dilineation between us.How do you know this? How do you know that if your brain was copied into a clone body, that person would be someone else and not just You²? We don't, we're getting into the realm of the metaphysical and philosophical but we have no practical application to draw our conclusions from, if v2 has the same brain as v1, he may be a separate you but can we be sure he's not you? And if v1 dies, are we so certain that v2 is now not you? And for the purpose of this thread's question, all that has to be wrapped up in the Star Wars simplicity as well.

decadentdave
12-16-2005, 08:26 PM
Just to expand upon my hypothesis to drive the point home:

I have an exact replicant of myself that has all of my memories and experiences and is, in essence, the person that I am. Something happens and I am suddenly killed and I perish. My replicant clone now exists essentially where I left off but I still cease to exist. I still die.

Another scenario:

Both myself and my replicant clone exist and we share the same memories, experiences, interests, etc. However, we are then seperated by the experiences that happen unique to us both from that moment onward. My replicant clone will get married to someone else and have experiences markedly different from mine and the choices that he makes based on those different experiences will define his character apart from my own.



BUT the clone troopers were raised in the same environment, circumstances, and conditions, and Boba was raised by Jango alone.

That is correct, up UNTIL the point they departed Kamino and headed out onto the front lines which is why we didn't begin to see personality traits emerge from the Clones until after several years of experiences fighting in the Clone Wars had individualized them.

JediTricks
12-16-2005, 08:36 PM
Dave, I merged your posts, hence that edit note.



That is correct, up UNTIL the point they departed Kamino and headed out onto the front lines which is why we didn't begin to see personality traits emerge from the Clones until after several years of experiences fighting in the Clone Wars had individualized them.Yeah, but by then they're already fully-formed people, the essence of who they are is already set. I'd argue the same for the adolecent Boba (if Darth "Yippee" Vader can be a 9-year-old, why not this?).

sith_killer_99
12-16-2005, 08:47 PM
Well, if you wanna go with the "Star Wars" example then Boba Fett is definatly NOT Jango, or even an extention of Jango.

In AOTC Jango takes off his helmet when conversing with people, has more intricate dialogue, uses flashy silver armor and weapons, works with other bounty hunters and appears to take better care of his equipment, he also lasted more than 2 seconds against a Jedi. Jango is also about 20-30 pounds heavier than Boba.:thumbsup: ;)

decadentdave
12-16-2005, 08:57 PM
Yeah, but by then they're already fully-formed people, the essence of who they are is already set. I'd argue the same for the adolecent Boba (if Darth "Yippee" Vader can be a 9-year-old, why not this?).

But Boba IS NOT Jango. What I am saying is that his "consciousness" or his "soul" if you will distinguishes him from his donor clone. And of course, watching his "daddy" get beheaded by a Jedi further developed his cognitive personality traits with experiences individual to him apart from Jango. Sure, Boba may try to emulate Jango but he definitely IS NOT Jango. Never was.

Kidhuman
12-16-2005, 10:01 PM
You sir, are correct. I had too many thread windows open at the time and got confused. I will edit my post to reflect the proper author.


Its ok, just dont do it again. Its like dealing withthe media and all the misquotes they throw down. :p :beard:

decadentdave
12-17-2005, 01:36 AM
But Boba IS NOT Jango. What I am saying is that his "consciousness" or his "soul" if you will distinguishes him from his donor clone. And of course, watching his "daddy" get beheaded by a Jedi further developed his cognitive personality traits with experiences individual to him apart from Jango. Sure, Boba may try to emulate Jango but he definitely IS NOT Jango. Never was.

I suppose I had better explain my own post before one of you guys try to dissect it under a microscope:

Boba was a clone grown from Jango Fett's DNA. Their genetic material is 100% identical. There is no question about that.

The moment Boba (or a Clone) achieves consciousness and has self-awareness they begin to develop an identity of self that is unique to their perception of their comprehension of the world around them. Some personality traits are genetically inheirited, others are learned, as JediTricks is suggesting that most of Boba's personality traits are learned directly from Jango or that the Clones were all trained the same way.

If Boba IS Jango, then why does he refer to him as "Dad?" Would you call your older self Dad? Why doesn't he just call him by name or by his own name? Jango, like any adult or parent, becomes a role-model upon which many behaviors are taught and learned from. In other words, the proverbial apple does not fall far from the tree.

That still does not make them the same person. Like I said, from the moment Boba achieved self-awareness he began building his own identity. Try to think back to your very earliest memory as a child. How far out of the womb were you before you began comprehending your environment around you and began building memories? I think my earliest memory was when I was 2 years old. Until then, I had no concept of the world around me, yet, I was still learning and developing personality traits that would define the unique individual I would eventually become.

Initially all of the Clones were just a bunch of programmed automatons but as they began accumulating different experiences in the field, their concept of self identity began to manifest itself and was exhibited by their outward characteristics. Intrinsically, their physical characteristics are identical, but their cognitive awareness is inherrent to each individual clone. It was always this way from the moment of consciousness but it took time for their individual characteristics of self identity to grow.

So the only time Boba ever was Jango is at a subatomic level. On a psychological/metaphysical level, however, it's a whole different person.

JediTricks
12-17-2005, 03:55 PM
If Boba IS Jango, then why does he refer to him as "Dad?" Would you call your older self Dad?I totally would, as a gag.

Anyway, Baby Fett sucks, I figured thinking of him in a different light might help him not suck quite as badly, but you guys keep right on living with the shameful kiddie crap that is AOTC's Boba Fett. :p

JON9000
12-17-2005, 05:35 PM
This thread has brought up three interesting issues, which I will throw my two cents in on, for what it is worth!

1. Should one consider Jango and Boba as the same person, since they are genetic duplicates?

I don't think so, for pretty much the reason decadentdave suggests. But I do think you have to have more respect for Boba, because his genetic copy was able to hold off a Jedi Knight.

2. Is Boba's origin and new relevance lame?

Actually, I thought it was kind of cool! You couldn't literally have the clone army be based on Boba Fett due to timeline constraints, but you could do the next best thing- make an army based on his genetic double! Okay, so Boba's origin could be more interesting, but it's sort of like Teddy asking what ever happened to Davy Hogan after winning the Pie contest and causing the Barf-O-Rama. I think what some people dislike is the lack of mystery.

3. Does the character Jango Fett suck?

I thought he was really cool... cooler than Boba, anyway. He had a lot to do and I like the shiny armor better.

Slicker
12-17-2005, 06:26 PM
1. Should one consider Jango and Boba as the same person, since they are genetic duplicates?



2. Is Boba's origin and new relevance lame?


3. Does the character Jango Fett suck?

I'll answer those 3 questions since they seem to be the basis of this thread.

1. No. They are to seperate people even though they are clones. They look and sound (although I don't get that one) the same and that's as far as they go in being the same person.

2. I think Boba's origins now is indeed lame and having him be in the movie was one of the worst decisions in the entire saga. It was a pathetic move by Lucas to make the fan-boys happy by including Mr. "I got killed by a blind man and died in the Sarlaac" Fett.

3. I don't think the character of Jango sucks. We really don't get a good feel for his character but from what you can gather he's an awesome pilot and can hold his own in a fight with a Jedi (except for that little decapitation incident).

2-1B
02-17-2008, 11:42 AM
No, they are not the same.

JediTricks
02-17-2008, 03:39 PM
Tell that to his face!

2-1B
02-17-2008, 04:52 PM
Don't you mean faces ? lol

JediTricks
02-18-2008, 09:06 PM
Nope, I do not.