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View Full Version : Did Vader know Obi-Wan survived?



Kidhuman
12-20-2005, 10:48 AM
Just wondering if Vader knew Obi-Wan survived all those years. The last he saw was him picking up his saber and giving him a speech and leaving him for dead. I am sure he found out about lal the clones killing the Jedi. Did he know and leave him alone out of respect? Was he scared of him to chase him down? Why say you should not have come back? To me it sounds like he knew. Maybe its a reference of surprise that he came out of hiding and he didnt know possibly?
Thoughts...

DarkArtist
12-20-2005, 11:35 AM
I think it was both out of Fear and respect for Obi Wan that Vader said " You Should Not have Come Back." Afterall, Kenobi pretty much kicked Vader's butt in on Mutafar, so there is always the possibility that Vader could lose again. As far as respect for Obi Wan, they were friends and brothers in a way, so perhaps Vader wanted to spare Obi Wan, sort of how he wanted to spare Luke in ESB.
If Vader truly was turned to darkness by the force, he would be a mindless killing machine, Luke would have been killed on Bespin, and the Empire would still be in existence. I think Vader had a sort of reflection of good similiar to his redemption aboard the second Death Star. For a brief moment, the spirit of Anakin was stronger than that of the Dark Side.
I also believe that Vader knew Obi Wan still lived but had hoped that he would remain in hiding and eventually fade away into the force.

El Chuxter
12-20-2005, 11:38 AM
Good question. We know Obi-Wan found out a couple of months after ROTS that Vader had survived, but not necessarily the opposite.

A partial answer can be found in Dark Lord. Palpatine considers the surviving Jedi a far less serious issue than Vader does. They can probably assume that Obi-Wan and Yoda survived and went into hiding, since they were both high-profile Council members that they knew personally, so they'd both be watching reports of slain Jedi to see if Obi-Wan and Yoda were among the confirmed dead.

JediTricks
12-20-2005, 02:32 PM
Tarkin assumes that Obi-Wan had been killed with the other Jedi, no reason to believe Vader might not think the same thing.

Kidhuman
12-20-2005, 08:35 PM
Because Vader has the force JT and can sense things. He sensed Obi-Wan on the Death Star and said he is here. Tarkin blew it off, because of human instinct(out of sight, out of mind).

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-20-2005, 08:40 PM
I read that Obi-Wan and Yoda soon learned that Vader survived (he was rather well-known, you know). They decided to continue keeping Luke and Obi-Wan on Tatooine anyway since they figured the memories of Vader's old life were too painful for him to return there. So, even if Vader knew about Obi-Wan, he wasn't likely to go to Tatooine anyway.

I think that Vader at least had an inkling that Obi-Wan was alive, but he didn't know about his whereabouts.

Rocketboy
12-20-2005, 10:16 PM
I don't see a reason for Vader to think that Obi-Wan was dead. After walking away on Mustafar, Kenobi apparently disappears and goes into hiding, which is what I think Vader assumed.
Now if Vader actively searched for Obi-Wan is another question.

Ji'dai
12-20-2005, 11:12 PM
Vader may have thought him dead if Obi-Wan hadn't surfaced in the last twenty years. It's possible Vader didn't feel Kenobi's presence until he actually arrived aboard the Death Star.

The Emperor, on the other hand, probably suspects Kenobi and Yoda had survived and were in hiding. In the Return of the Jedi novelization, the Emperor actually asks Luke about Yoda, and suspects that the old Jedi Master survived long enough to continue Luke's training after Kenobi was slain. IIRC, the Emperor also knows that Yoda is now dead (perhaps reading Luke's mind) and the old Jedi is of no further help to Luke, a fact which of course he uses to taunt Luke with.

Sentinel18725
12-21-2005, 07:22 AM
I believe because of the nature of the "jedi rebellion" that both the Emperor and Vader know who is still alive. I believe that the clones would report what jedi they had found and killed. So, my money is that they both know that Yoda and Obi survived. Why they didn't go looking for them, I don't know.

Jayspawn
12-21-2005, 09:59 AM
This thread topic is amusing to me, because I've thought about it.

As the Empire rose Vader became more of a public figure in the Senate and around the Galaxy, so word would have spread about him (and it wasnt good). If you disagreed with the Empire and Stormtroopers and Vader showed up -it menat you were in deep s$*#! So I figure that way Obi-Wan would have heard about him from chat around Tatooine.

"Oohhh crap! Old Yoda and Kenobi pulled a fast one on me." What Palpatine was thinking when he found out that Luke Skywalker was still alive. I bet it ticked off Palpatine every minute after ROTS that nobody could find Yoda -and there was nothing anybody could do about it.

JimJamBonds
12-21-2005, 10:19 AM
I think Vader knew that Obi was still alive (along with Yoda) and since he hadn't "heard" from Obi he figured that Obi went to some out of the way place to hide. I think Vader was quite suprised to find out Obi on the DS as his dialog points out.

JetsAndHeels
12-21-2005, 03:14 PM
Here is my take on it:

Vader knows Kenobi is still alive....like it was posted earlier, he did in fact see him walk away on Mustafar. Later on I think Vader is well aware that Kenobi is hiding, but why even bother to look for him at that point....he was one of the only 2 surviving Jedi from the Old Republic, plus Vader had killed Padme (according to what he had been told), so I think he ended up hating himself. He felt guilt and sadness from this and decided that hunting Kenobi was not an important endeavor.
That's why he said on the DS, "You should have not come back".
I think Vader was going to let him be in peace, but when his old master shows up by surprise, there is his perfect opportunity to get revenge.
Just my 2 cents, ignore as needed.

JediTricks
12-21-2005, 04:17 PM
Because Vader has the force JT and can sense things. He sensed Obi-Wan on the Death Star and said he is here. Tarkin blew it off, because of human instinct(out of sight, out of mind).But Vader didn't sense him when he was right outside while the tractor beam was pulling them in, Vader didn't sense Yoda or Obi-Wan before ANH or after for that matter. The Force is not a GPS system. Even when the Falcon lands, Vader doesn't initially sense anything, and when he finally does after barking out some orders, he only says "I sense something, a presence I've not felt since..." and rushes off, he doesn't immediately even know for sure who it is that he's sensing.

Kidhuman
12-22-2005, 12:05 AM
He knew what he was sensing, G. Lu. did it like that for suspense. What are the odds that Vader did not go anywhere near Tatooine in the 18 years? I am sure if he was there he could have felt something.

Darth Jax
12-22-2005, 09:18 AM
KH, Vader was near Tatooine when they boarded the blockade runner. i think we'll find out much more (EU-style) as more post ROTS books/comics come out. Those that are out currently don't really depict Vader as actively hunting down the unaccounted for Jedi. should he come across one; he'll deal with it, should they escape he doesn't chase them. In fact in Dark Lord, Vader is more a bumbling machine than anything else, his grip on the force particularly weak until the end. It seems the great Jedi purges occurred at the moment of order 66 and that was about their extent.

Palps had to be aware that both Kenobi and Yoda survived. his troopers didn't find Yoda or a body in the senate, and Kenobi was gone when he arrived on Mustafar to help Vader. Seems he didn't much care at that point, what were 2 jedi going to be able to do now that he was in control of the empire.

As for Vader sensing Ben on the DS. i'm not sure he could identify who was present only someone that was force sensitive was around. in fact might he have been sensing Luke's presence? Ben had been around the block before so would have been keeping a lid on his force abilities. but Luke was rather new to the ball game, could he have been throwing off force vibes. After all Vader again senses how strong the force is with him when chasing him down the trench before Luke destroys the DS.

JimJamBonds
12-22-2005, 10:11 AM
But Vader didn't sense him when he was right outside while the tractor beam was pulling them in, Vader didn't sense Yoda or Obi-Wan before ANH or after for that matter. The Force is not a GPS system. Even when the Falcon lands, Vader doesn't initially sense anything, and when he finally does after barking out some orders, he only says "I sense something, a presence I've not felt since..." and rushes off, he doesn't immediately even know for sure who it is that he's sensing.

I haven't watched ANH in about a month but does Vader sense Obi-Wan after he uses the force? If so Vader must have sensed his 'usage.' :D

JediTricks
12-22-2005, 03:22 PM
He knew what he was sensing, G. Lu. did it like that for suspense. What are the odds that Vader did not go anywhere near Tatooine in the 18 years? I am sure if he was there he could have felt something.And this assurity comes from where? My opinion comes from movie evidence, where does your claim come from? Vader was right over Tatooine right beforehand and didn't sense Obi-Wan's presence there, Vader didn't hunt down and catch Obi-Wan off-guard in the Death Star either.



Palps had to be aware that both Kenobi and Yoda survived. his troopers didn't find Yoda or a body in the senate, and Kenobi was gone when he arrived on Mustafar to help Vader. Seems he didn't much care at that point, what were 2 jedi going to be able to do now that he was in control of the empire.Yeah, what would Palps care that the only surviving Jedi were the ones who fought Palps to a standstill and bested the "most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" who was now his apprentice? C'mon, Obi-Wan and Yoda were the ones who delivered THE MOST damage to the Sith in ROTS and could have done so again. Look at how much effort Palps and Vader put into tracking down Luke once they know he's become a Jedi learner in ESB, that's 1 half-trained kid they're worried about, in ROTS Yoda and Obi-Wan are stronger and have already proven their superiority.


After all Vader again senses how strong the force is with him when chasing him down the trench before Luke destroys the DS.Because Vader says this only after Obi-Wan's ghost talks to Luke during the battle, I've always thought Vader was actually sensing Obi-Wan's Force-spirit and not knowing what it was. Vader and Palps talk about a disturbance in the Force, that Luke Skywalker has become their new enemy, that comes much later, during ESB.



I haven't watched ANH in about a month but does Vader sense Obi-Wan after he uses the force? If so Vader must have sensed his 'usage.'Nope, Vader says he senses that "something" while Obi-Wan is just hiding under the floor of the Falcon not doing anything.

Kidhuman
12-22-2005, 03:32 PM
And this assurity comes from where? My opinion comes from movie evidence, where does your claim come from? Vader was right over Tatooine right beforehand and didn't sense Obi-Wan's presence there, Vader didn't hunt down and catch Obi-Wan off-guard in the Death Star either.

Years of watching movies. It always has the suspense. We knew that Ben taught him as he states to Luke. But he hasnt felt that presence since.....Then when they meet he basically states that he was only a pupil and all. It makes sense from the standpoint now that the Trilogies are in place. He hadnt felt it since Mustafar. If G. Lu. would have stated something different there, he would have screwed up the continuity thing further.(as we now know the whole back story)

Like it has been stated in many a thread(perhaps by you, not sure) one can only feel the force if one is using the force. Maybe Big Ben was catching up on some zzzz's. He wasnt using the force at the times Vader was overhead. Maybe he was on the other side of the planet, who knows.

We see Vader waiting for Obi-Wan right infron of the Falcon. He knew which way Obi was going. He didnt have ot hunt him down. Ben felt his presence and whipped out his saber. He knew he was there as well.(Unlike Luke in Bespin when he fought Vader).

JediTricks
12-22-2005, 04:08 PM
So in other words, just your gut.

We know who Darth Vader is sensing the minute he says it, we don't need to know since when, we're supposed to think it was a long time ago. So why have Vader not sense anything until the end of the scene? Why have Vader start by saying he senses SOMETHING? It's not like Vader doesn't go to Tarkin and proclaim that Obi-Wan Kenobi is on the Death Star moments later. There's no suspense needed there.

Heck, we don't even know if Vader senses Obi-Wan on the Falcon when he says he senses "a presence", if he did know what he was sensing right then, why not send all the troopers in to tear the ship apart and kill the people on board?


Like it has been stated in many a thread(perhaps by you, not sure) one can only feel the force if one is using the force. No, my theory was that Force users can only sense other Force users that they know. And that's all a lot of "maybe" claims.


We see Vader waiting for Obi-Wan right infron of the Falcon. He knew which way Obi was going. He didnt have ot hunt him down.Yeah, by that time Vader knows Obi-Wan is trying to get the princess off the Death Star by means of the Falcon, of course he's gonna block that path.

El Chuxter
12-22-2005, 04:32 PM
If you want to dip into EU pretty heavily, Vader does not want to go to Tatooine, because it reminds him of his perceived failure in rescuing Shmi.

And had he gone to Tatooine, he may have sensed both Obi-Wan and A'Sharad Hett. The New Essential Chronology revealed for the first time that A'Sharad returned to live among the Tuskens and plot revenge against the Empire. Seems a bit too convenient to me. Obi-Wan and A'Sharad could never have met up, or presumably A'Sharad would have told the others that Obi-Wan was down with the Tusken Posse.

bobafrett
12-22-2005, 10:19 PM
I started thinking about the scene in ROTJ where Luke and Vader are battling, and Luke is hiding in the dark, and we see Vader searching about, and he says "you can't hide forever". If Vader couldn't even locate his son in the same room with the force, I'm sure finding Obi-Wan hiding out in some little shack in the desert would be quite a compelling task.

VaderhitsJarjar
12-23-2005, 01:28 PM
VADER has no reason to believe Obi-Wan is dead - and we know that Vader did not search for Ben because no one has written that particular EU tale yet.

Maybe next year we will all in hindsite say oh yea we all thought Vader knew exactly where Ben was. Maybe that is why he kept stormtroopers there close by.

JediTricks
12-23-2005, 03:07 PM
Vader has no reason to believe he and Yoda are alive either though, there was a Jedi purge going on at the time.

Kidhuman
12-23-2005, 11:23 PM
VADER has no reason to believe Obi-Wan is dead - and we know that Vader did not search for Ben because no one has written that particular EU tale yet.


I hope it never gets writen. I dont hold EU as cannon anyway

sith_killer_99
12-24-2005, 12:09 AM
I don't know, if I were Vader, I would make finding Obi-Wan something of a priorty after the way he kicked Vader's butt. At the very least I would want proof of his death, had someone else claimed to have killed him.

I believe Vader suspected Obi-Wan was alive. He didn't seem too surprised that Obi-Wan was still alive in ANH and his comment to Tarkin "Don't underestimate the force" certainly makes it clear that he believed it was possible.

As for Yoda, he must have assumed that he died. In ROTJ Vader makes a lot of refrences to Obi-Wan. "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me" implying it was Obi-Wan alone who had conspired to hide the twins. "Obi-Wan has taught you well" yet it was Yoda who gave Luke most of his training. Luke also didn't correct him, which I thought was kind of an insult to Yoda.

Plus, Vader knew that Obi-Wan survived the initial "purge" because he saw him after the attempt on Obi-Wan life. He did not see Yoda. Only the Emperor knew that Yoda survived and he really had no reason to tell Vader.

Anyway, I think Vader believed Obi-Wan might be alive and Yoda was dead, either from the purge or from old age.

JediTricks
12-24-2005, 02:41 PM
As for Yoda, he must have assumed that he died. In ROTJ Vader makes a lot of refrences to Obi-Wan. "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me" implying it was Obi-Wan alone who had conspired to hide the twins. "Obi-Wan has taught you well" yet it was Yoda who gave Luke most of his training. Luke also didn't correct him, which I thought was kind of an insult to Yoda.Originally, I just figured Vader never knew Yoda, but the late-addition of Yoda to the prequels changed that. Still, if Vader's Master can be bested by Yoda but Vader just takes it for granted that Yoda is dead, I would think Obi-Wan would be in the same boat.

Sith Lord 0498
12-31-2005, 02:30 PM
I think Vader knew Obi-Wan survived, but he didn't try to hunt him down. Had Obi-Wan resurfaced on his own and threatened either Vader or the Empire, then Vader would have killed him. Consider these lines of dialogue from ROTS and ANH:

SIDIOUS: "Every single Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of the Republic."

But just a little bit later when talking to Padme, Vader doesn't acknowledge Sidious' declaration.

PADME: "What about Obi-Wan?"
VADER: "I don't know. Many Jedi have been killed already. We can only hope he's remained loyal to the Chancellor."

Vader is holding out hope that he can convince Obi-Wan that his side is right. Keep in mind that Vader is already conspiring to overthrow Sidious, so he would want Obi-Wan to join him and Padme in ruling the galaxy. Despite the Dark Side grabbing ahold of him, he still cares about him "family" and doesn't want to harm them. He does so only when he feels they've both betrayed him.

VADER: "Don't make me kill you!!"
OBI-WAN: "Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic...to democracy!!!"
VADER: "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."
OBI-WAN: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must."

Obi-Wan is rejecting Vader and draws his saber first. That is why Vader attacks him...he was "betrayed" by Obi-Wan and acted on his darker impulses.

All of these examples illustrated the notion that the part of Darth Vader that is still Anakin Skywalker is strong enough to not want to hunt down his "brother" unless absolutely necessary. That is why Vader tells Obi-Wan that "You should not have come back"...now Vader has no choice but to kill him.

Mad Slanted Powers
01-03-2006, 09:49 PM
As for Yoda, he must have assumed that he died. In ROTJ Vader makes a lot of refrences to Obi-Wan. "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me" implying it was Obi-Wan alone who had conspired to hide the twins. "Obi-Wan has taught you well" yet it was Yoda who gave Luke most of his training. Luke also didn't correct him, which I thought was kind of an insult to Yoda.I don't see it as an insult. If he had mentioned Yoda, then that would have revealed he was still alive and put him in danger.

I think I agree with pretty much everything Sith Lord 0498 said. Some good points there.

Darth Jax
01-07-2006, 10:01 PM
Purge, a one-shot comic makes it very clear Vader not only knows Obi survived, but quite actively wants to make him dead. as it appeared in a couple of the EU books that have come out as well, Palps seems to have no interest in tracking down the remaining jedi that survived the execution of order 66.

Sith Lord 0498
01-08-2006, 09:08 AM
Purge, a one-shot comic makes it very clear Vader not only knows Obi survived, but quite actively wants to make him dead. as it appeared in a couple of the EU books that have come out as well, Palps seems to have no interest in tracking down the remaining jedi that survived the execution of order 66.

I saw this as well not long after I presented my fullblown theory supporting that Vader secretly didn't want to kill Obi-Wan. It sure does seem as though Vader has a serious Rancor bone to pick with Kenobi. However, 20 years is a long time, and it's possible that uncontrollable rage toward Obi-Wan is short-lived (until of course he's face-to-face with him again aboard the Death Star).

Rocketboy
01-08-2006, 03:32 PM
I saw this as well not long after I presented my fullblown theory supporting that Vader secretly didn't want to kill Obi-Wan. It sure does seem as though Vader has a serious Rancor bone to pick with Kenobi. However, 20 years is a long time, and it's possible that uncontrollable rage toward Obi-Wan is short-lived (until of course he's face-to-face with him again aboard the Death Star).Spoilers for Purge ahead if you haven't read it.

On the very last page, the Emperor tells Vader

This fixation on Kenobi -- That is a part of you that is still Skywalker. You must purge it from yourself. Anakin Skywalker is dead. Only Darth Vader lives.And this maybe exactly what Vader does. He may still want revenge on Obi-Wan, but does not actively search for him.