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View Full Version : What would have Happened if Luke struck down the Emperor ?



DarkArtist
12-22-2005, 11:02 AM
Was reading the infinities ROTJ comics the other day, and a thought crossed my mind. In ROTJ the Emperor says "Strike me down with all your Hatred and your journey to te Dark Side will be complete." So my question is what would have happened if Luke took the emperor's advice and struck him down. Would Luke have become the new emperor or would have Vader taken over ? Plus if it did happen it would it be just like at the end of ESB "Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as Father and Son."

Kidhuman
12-22-2005, 11:20 AM
Well, assuming Vader didnt block the lightsaber, Luke would have killed the Emperor. Then he and Vader would have died after Lando blew up the DS2 and nothing would have become of it.

El Chuxter
12-22-2005, 11:59 AM
Luke would have turned to the Dark Side, and probably have killed the Rebels. He would become Vader's apprentice.

JimJamBonds
12-22-2005, 12:03 PM
Good call there KH. Now what had happened had Luke defeated Palps, not "striking him down" rather straight up bested him in a duel. What would have Vader done? What would have happened to Vader?

JediTricks
12-22-2005, 03:30 PM
As KH points out, Luke *does* take the Emp's advice, Vader merely deflects the attack.

Let's assume though that Luke gets that kill-shot in on Palps, I would guess Luke would then battle Vader just as he did, he'd give in to his hatred just as he did, defeat Vader just as he did, probably kill him outright, then leave before the Death Star was destroyed. From there, I think Luke would have *tried* to do good while the formed the New Republic, but having tasted the seductive ease that the Dark Side brought, he would inevitably be drawn towards its use with each new challenge, until he himself became a tyrannical Dark Jedi attempting to control the whole galaxy so he could shape it to what he felt it should be, all in the name of what he thought was right.

Slicker
12-22-2005, 09:28 PM
Well, assuming Vader didnt block the lightsaber, Luke would have killed the Emperor. Then he and Vader would have died after Lando blew up the DS2 and nothing would have become of it.I'm down with the simplicty of KH's response.

JediTricks
12-23-2005, 01:38 AM
But why would Luke have let himself die at that point? There's no reason to, they all know what's going on and Luke knows what's coming.

Kidhuman
12-23-2005, 09:02 AM
But also Luke doesnt know the sheiuld generator was down. For all we know they might have thought they were safe

VaderhitsJarjar
12-23-2005, 01:10 PM
I never thought vader took out the emperor just because he became instantly good - vader had just gotten his saber handed to him and his future with olde palpy would probably have been very short had he not taken the matter into his own hands - but - I guess when he realizes his life support system shorted out - he suddenly became good -

DarkArtist
12-23-2005, 01:41 PM
Good point about the shield generator since Luke does tell the Emperor " soon I'll be dead and you with me." I think he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and die along with Vader and Emperor.

I think that if Luke did turn to the darkside, he would turn the Death Star's laser on Endor and destroy the moon and the rebel forces on the planet. Then since he knew the rebels needed the shield to be destroyed, turn the laser on every rebel ship from the falcon to home one. I also imagine any fighters still docked within the Death Star would be launched to destroy all the rebel starfighters. Thus total destruction and a new dawn for the the Empire.

JediTricks
12-23-2005, 03:11 PM
But also Luke doesnt know the sheiuld generator was down. For all we know they might have thought they were safe
He had no reason to believe anything was going wrong with the Rebel's plans on the planet below either though, he didn't know the shield was up or down, the way it originally played out the Emp and Luke didn't seem to know or care all that much.



Good point about the shield generator since Luke does tell the Emperor " soon I'll be dead and you with me." I think he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and die along with Vader and Emperor.But in the original, he actually *doesn't* sacrifice himself, so why should he in this timeline? Especially if he succeeds in defeating Vader the same way he did before and slips more towards the Dark Side, he'd be more ego-centric, thinking he alone knows how best to serve the galaxy.

Devo
12-23-2005, 04:56 PM
I agree with what JediTricks said about a belated turn to the darkside by Luke. The other suggestions just don't work in my opinion - with Luke suddenly going mental and killing all the rebels with the death star superlaser (you guys being serious there?), nothing the emperor said up to that point would have been enough to unbalance Luke to that degree. Then again what you guys are proposing is exactly what happened with Anakin in ROTS so it wouldn't be beyond Lucas to think that this was a realistic character arc for Luke at that point. :rolleyes:

El Chuxter
12-23-2005, 05:24 PM
I agree with what JediTricks said about a belated turn to the darkside by Luke. The other suggestions just don't work in my opinion - with Luke suddenly going mental and killing all the rebels with the death star superlaser (you guys being serious there?), nothing the emperor said up to that point would have been enough to unbalance Luke to that degree.

Devo, I was about to point out that this was the same cop-out that Lucas used in ROTS, but you beat me to it. ;)

JediTricks
12-24-2005, 02:47 PM
At least (and I do mean *least*) Lucas had Palpatine to guide Anakin when he made the switch from Coke to Pepsi, but in our little "what if...?" scenario here Luke wouldn't even have that influence once he killed the old coot.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-26-2005, 07:27 PM
I think the big variable here is how Vader reacts. In ESB, Vader tried to get Luke to join him to overthrow the Emperor. With the Emperor gone, Vader has part of his wish. Would he now try and convince Luke to join him in defeating the Rebels? Perhaps, but maybe Luke would be able to convince Vader to join him. Earlier in ROTJ, Luke tried to get Vader to join him, and Vader responded by saying "It is too late for me son". He seemed like maybe he would have joined Luke, but he was resigned to the fact that the Emperor had control over him. With the Emperor out of the way, it is hard to say what would happen. This is where Luke's reaction comes in. Would the Dark Side have consumed him enough to join with Vader? Perhaps he would have stayed with the Rebels, but eventually become too power hungry. Maybe things would have been okay.

JediTricks
12-27-2005, 02:49 PM
Since I don't buy that throwing of the "good/bad" switch a la evil Krusty Doll that was ROTS Anakin, I don't think Luke would have followed Vader into "destroy the Rebellion" path, I think it'd take longer for the Dark Side to consume Luke at that point. I think it's more likely that if there was a change of heart, it'd be Vader who would use Luke's good intentions to control the galaxy. Vader would see that Luke is set up to be in a position of supreme power once the Emperor was dead, he'd see which way the wind had blown and without his evil Sith master controlling his direction, Vader would probably convince Luke that he would serve and advise Luke as they rebuild the galaxy since all Vader really wanted was what was best for everybody and the Emperor is the one who perverted that into evil. Luke would eventually trust Vader, even protect him from the others who would want to destroy the former Sith, which would create a rift between Luke and the others. The real drama at that point would be determining whether Vader's actions were intentionally evil, or honest and misguided, or honest and not misguided.

TheDarthVader
12-27-2005, 07:16 PM
Here I come!

Luke would have killed the emperor then vader would still be alive. The cause of vader's death was the emperor. We see the sacrifice vader made, and I find it hard to believe that vader could have killed luke in a duel. Same thing with luke. I find it hard to believe that luke would have killed vader in a duel. "Fulfill your father's place at my side." Luke says, "No." Luke has a chance to kill vader, and he doesn't do it. Same with vader in ESB. He could have killed luke. ROTJ Luke says, "That is why you didn't kill me..." Exactly. And so what if luke kills palpy. That doesn't mean he'll turn to the darkside. After all, obi wan kills some baddies in the cantina. Does he turn bad? No, he is defending himself against evil beings. So what we have is vader turning back to anakin but still in the suit, luke being the hero who saved his father spiritually and physically, and a victorious rebel group that celebrates the destruction of the death star (without luke or vader dying on it). That is my take.
From there, who knows. More than likely the rebellioin would survive a long time with the skywalkers at the helm (luke, leia, vader). ;)

B.
TDV

Mad Slanted Powers
12-27-2005, 09:23 PM
Also, I don't think Luke initially attacked out of hatred and rage. He had gone there prepared to die with Vader and the Emperor when the Death Star was destroyed. However, he had just learned that his friends were walking into a trap. He was desparate and had to do something. He had to defeat them or at least fight his way out and find a way to warn the rebels. It wasn't until Vader threatened to turn Leia that Luke let all his emotions pour out into his attack. Then again, it was the Emperor's words that twice helped Luke to realize that what he was doing was wrong.

JediTricks
12-27-2005, 10:02 PM
I find it hard to believe that luke would have killed vader in a duel. "Fulfill your father's place at my side." Luke says, "No." Luke has a chance to kill vader, and he doesn't do it.This is interesting though, if you look at the way the last scene of the saber battle plays out, Luke channels his anger into defeating Vader, cuts off his hand, and moves in for a killing blow when the Emperor - like a total idiot - starts talking and distracting Luke to point out how much Luke has become more powerful by slipping towards the Dark Side. Luke has his saber at Vader's throat when the Emp comes down the stairs and says:

Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!
It is only at this point that Luke stops to look at his hand and consider the path he has headed down just now, then turn away from the Dark Side and toss aside his weapon, which leads to the Emperor's downfall.

But what if the Emperor wasn't there to interrupt the momentum of the battle and point out to Luke where he was going? The rest of the battle is pretty much free of Emperor influence so I think the battle would have progressed exactly as it did until the end, and without the Emp's influence at the end, there's much more likelihood that Luke would have killed Vader.



And so what if luke kills palpy. That doesn't mean he'll turn to the darkside.But it's not an issue of killing him, it's tapping into the Dark Side to do it which will draw Luke towards going down the dark path. Luke decided to attack an unarmed, seemingly feeble opponent, that's the Dark Side.

Sith Lord 0498
12-31-2005, 02:18 PM
But it's not an issue of killing him, it's tapping into the Dark Side to do it which will draw Luke towards going down the dark path. Luke decided to attack an unarmed, seemingly feeble opponent, that's the Dark Side.

Except Luke knew that the Emperor, while unarmed, was far from feeble and extremely dangerous. Even Yoda told him "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor." It's not as if he were attacking Cliegg Lars. I see the point you're trying to make, but it doesn't fit with this situation simply because of how powerful Darth Sidious is.

trandoshan666
12-31-2005, 02:54 PM
my question is what would have happened if Luke took the emperor's advice and struck him down. Would Luke have become the new emperor or would have Vader taken over ? Plus if it did happen it would it be just like at the end of ESB "Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as Father and Son."

Interesting thread, DarkArtist. My feeling on this subject has always been that there is absolutely no way that Luke could have struck down Palpatine in the first place, so the question of what would subsequently happen is irrelevant.

In the event that Luke took a swing at the Emperor and Vader didn't intervene (which Palpatine knew was impossible, anyway), Palpatine would have used it as an opportunity to show Luke who's boss. Palpatine, being a supremely powerful Sith, undoubtedly would have zapped the crap out of young Skywalker at that point, and then would have made a series of statements about how the dark side was more powerful, and how Luke would never know that power if he didn't join, etc.

Palpatine can sense Luke's emotions and react with remarkable speed. The Emperor is simply baiting Luke by telling him to strike him down, knowing full well that the younger Skywalker had zero chance of actually doing so.

DarkArtist
12-31-2005, 03:12 PM
In the event that Luke took a swing at the Emperor and Vader didn't intervene (which Palpatine knew was impossible, anyway), Palpatine would have used it as an opportunity to show Luke who's boss. Palpatine, being a supremely powerful Sith, undoubtedly would have zapped the crap out of young Skywalker at that point, and then would have made a series of statements about how the dark side was more powerful, and how Luke would never know that power if he didn't join, etc.

Palpatine can sense Luke's emotions and react with remarkable speed. The Emperor is simply baiting Luke by telling him to strike him down, knowing full well that the younger Skywalker had zero chance of actually doing so.[/QUOTE]

Good point but if you read the comic series Dark Empire, Luke is once again confronted with the Emperor and the same choice once again. I think the Emperor says, "Surely you know that if you strike me down in anger I will live again, perhaps I will even live as you."

JediTricks
12-31-2005, 03:14 PM
Except Luke knew that the Emperor, while unarmed, was far from feeble and extremely dangerous. Even Yoda told him "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor." It's not as if he were attacking Cliegg Lars. I see the point you're trying to make, but it doesn't fit with this situation simply because of how powerful Darth Sidious is.
When are we shown Luke knowing the Emperor to be unfeeble? Even we the audience didn't know how powerful the Emperor truly was when we first see him in ROTJ, the character is designed specifically so that we *will* underestimate him.



In the event that Luke took a swing at the Emperor and Vader didn't intervene (which Palpatine knew was impossible, anyway), Palpatine would have used it as an opportunity to show Luke who's boss. Palpatine, being a supremely powerful Sith, undoubtedly would have zapped the crap out of young Skywalker at that point, and then would have made a series of statements about how the dark side was more powerful, and how Luke would never know that power if he didn't join, etc.I dunno, if Vader hadn't caught Luke's saber, Luke's swing would have been awfully close to Palp's face and moving fast, even if Palps zapped Luke at this point I doubt it would have stopped the lightsaber. It's similar to the end of the Mace/Palps battle in ROTS, I was having a discussion about this with someone recently and they claimed that Palps might have had a contingency plan in case Anakin didn't cut off Mace's arm, my response was to ask when he would have used it since Mace's saber is at his throat when it happens.

Mad Slanted Powers
01-01-2006, 11:30 PM
Except Luke knew that the Emperor, while unarmed, was far from feeble and extremely dangerous. Even Yoda told him "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor." It's not as if he were attacking Cliegg Lars. I see the point you're trying to make, but it doesn't fit with this situation simply because of how powerful Darth Sidious is.When are we shown Luke knowing the Emperor to be unfeeble? Even we the audience didn't know how powerful the Emperor truly was when we first see him in ROTJ, the character is designed specifically so that we *will* underestimate him.
As Sith Lord 0498 said in what you have quoted there, Yoda warned Luke not to underestimate the Emperor. When Luke meets the Emperor, the Emperor removes Luke's binders with the Force as if it is was no effort. I've always wondered about Luke's expression there. It's as if he seemed surprised or impressed by the Emperor's ability. Or maybe he was just surprised that the Emperor would let him go. Also, we have all the build up to this confrontation. Vader tells Luke "You don't know the power of the Dark Side, I must obey my master." The audience is also given a hint of Palpatine's power when Vader tells Jerjerrod, "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I." To an audience that thought Vader was the epitome of evil, that would be a chilling thought.

jlw
01-03-2006, 08:53 PM
Interesting thread, DarkArtist. My feeling on this subject has always been that there is absolutely no way that Luke could have struck down Palpatine in the first place, so the question of what would subsequently happen is irrelevant.

In the event that Luke took a swing at the Emperor and Vader didn't intervene (which Palpatine knew was impossible, anyway), Palpatine would have used it as an opportunity to show Luke who's boss. Palpatine, being a supremely powerful Sith, undoubtedly would have zapped the crap out of young Skywalker at that point, and then would have made a series of statements about how the dark side was more powerful, and how Luke would never know that power if he didn't join, etc.

Palpatine can sense Luke's emotions and react with remarkable speed. The Emperor is simply baiting Luke by telling him to strike him down, knowing full well that the younger Skywalker had zero chance of actually doing so.

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what I was thinking as reading this thread. This question is not what WOULD have happened if Luke struck down the Emperor; the question is COULD Luke have struck down the Emperor.

I don't think Palps had any plans of dying at the hands of Luke. He either had faith in his apprentice, Vader, or had a back up plan. It was all to chide Luke into giving into his anger. If Yoda warned Luke of how powerful the Emperor is, then Luke must have had some idea.

JediTricks
01-04-2006, 02:33 PM
Well, that's a different question though, this thread starts by having us assume it already happened and what would be the consequences. I still maintain though that Palps really couldn't have done jack if Vader's saber somehow missed Luke's, nor could he have done anything if Anakin's saber had missed Mace's arm.

scruffziller
02-03-2006, 11:17 AM
Well, that's a different question though, this thread starts by having us assume it already happened and what would be the consequences. I still maintain though that Palps really couldn't have done jack if Vader's saber somehow missed Luke's, nor could he have done anything if Anakin's saber had missed Mace's arm.

If the Empy needed Luke to give into his anger all the way through the session to turn him to the darkside, then striking the Empy down would have interupted that prematurley. And Luke would have still remained in control. I don't believe that he would have gained any more dark side points from actually killing him than the attempt. And even when he was almost there at the darkside's helm, he gave it up. But of course from a quick snapback save of looking at his mechanical hand. It was going to take ALOT more "training" for Luke than that first egging on for the Empy to have his new apprentice.

Kidhuman
02-03-2006, 09:52 PM
It was foreseen that Luke would give in and Vader would block it. Plain and simple.

JediTricks
02-05-2006, 10:06 PM
It was foreseen that Luke would give in and Vader would block it. Plain and simple.
I don't accept any sort of "it was foreseen" argument, the end of the movie PROVES the Emperor can't foresee this stuff down to the smallest action, he missed the final play pretty badly considering how much it cost him AND his legacy. And the Palpatine character we're shown in the prequels shows that a lot of his planning tanks and he's just good at playing it into his overall scheme, so that surely doesn't help the "predetermined" argument in my book.



If the Empy needed Luke to give into his anger all the way through the session to turn him to the darkside, then striking the Empy down would have interupted that prematurley. And Luke would have still remained in control.I don't think so, I think if Luke completes the action of killing an unarmed old man, he has given into his anger to the ultimate point and the Dark Side has hold of his soul. When Luke finally does give into the Dark Side and defeat Vader, he is CLEARLY not in control and it is only Palpatine's interruption and goading which stops Luke long enough to consider what he has done and is about to become.

scruffziller
02-06-2006, 09:54 AM
I don't think so, I think if Luke completes the action of killing an unarmed old man, he has given into his anger to the ultimate point and the Dark Side has hold of his soul. When Luke finally does give into the Dark Side and defeat Vader, he is CLEARLY not in control and it is only Palpatine's interruption and goading which stops Luke long enough to consider what he has done and is about to become.

So similar to what Anikin did when he cut of Mace's arm in EPS3.

JediTricks
02-06-2006, 03:34 PM
Maybe, I'm not sure I see a parallel, Ep 3 makes the case that Anakin's move against Mace is made out of fear of losing Padme by killing Palps - the man he believes is the only one who can save her. Giving in to fear is another path to the dark side, but it's not the same one IMO. Anakin doesn't actually kill Mace though, his move is a "disarming" one only and it is Palpatine who surprises Anakin by dispatching Mace.