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View Full Version : In My opinion the Jedi are Evil.



DarkArtist
12-29-2005, 08:38 PM
Was just thinking of this the other day. Perhaps all this time we have been lead to believe that the Sith were evil, when really it was the Jedi that were. Afterall, the movies tell the stories from the Jedi's point of view, so it tends to be one-sided. However if the story were told by the Sith perhaps that certain point of view would be different. What do you think.

Also if your think about it, Lucas said he used history and lore as references to the original trilogy, such as nazi = stormtrooper etc. Is it possible that the idea of the Empire oppressing aliens is similiar to the way we today suppress minorities

JediTricks
12-29-2005, 08:52 PM
Well, the droids are intentionally meant to represent 3rd-class citizens & slaves in the OT, so this stuff was on Lucas' mind. But as for making the Jedi evil, there's no question in my mind that this was pulled from the vacuum of Anakin's bum during ROTS, at best Lucas tries to make the Jedi order look complacent and dulled in the prequels, but that line about them being "evil" seems to come right out of nowhere IMO. I started a thread about how off Hayden's reading of that line was, and everybody turned it into a thread about the content rather than the tone.

The Sith however there can be no doubt, they are meant to be evil to the core, they might say they want peace but only at their own controlling means, they are manipulators who will do anything to get the upper hand to defeat the Jedi and control the galaxy, the movies are quite consistant about displaying that.

decadentdave
12-29-2005, 10:18 PM
But as for making the Jedi evil, there's no question in my mind that this was pulled from the vacuum of Anakin's bum during ROTS, at best Lucas tries to make the Jedi order look complacent and dulled in the prequels, but that line about them being "evil" seems to come right out of nowhere IMO.

What makes ROTS brilliant is that the entire film is shown through Anakin's POV. And what we see through his eyes is that the Jedi are corrupt, or... more specifically... they are a cult not unlike Scientologists who take in their "initiates" and brainwash their minds with selective knowledge of the Force. Mace is a dick to Anakin during the entire film... the Council gives him the shaft... Yeah, I'd turn to the Dark Side too if the goody-two-shoes Jedi treated me with such disrespect and alienation as they do Anakin. From my point of view, the Jedi ARE INDEED evil!

JimJamBonds
12-29-2005, 10:58 PM
Its all about perspectives, simple as that.

decadentdave
12-29-2005, 11:26 PM
Its all about perspectives, simple as that.

Precisely. The Jedi and the Sith are two sides of the same coin. The Sith are considered "Evil" because they are perceived as selfish and unscrupulous when it comes to satisfying their own means with moral disregard. The Jedi, on the other hand, pontificate the ideal of morality for all living things and devote themselves to the defense of such idealism. From this, Good and Evil can be simplified into two primary ideologies: Selfless or Selfish.

But even Good and Evil are not as definitive as Black and White with varying degrees in between. Even the Jedi, in their arrogance, convoluted an unfavorable and disloyal perception amongst its own Order which created dissention leading to the Lost Twenty. Both Qui-Gon and Dooku both realized that such extreme absolutism is misguided and foolish and sought to bring a more "enlightened" balance to the Force.

Bacta Beast
12-29-2005, 11:43 PM
Seems like this could turn into a Rancor pit discussion. I object to the comment about the way we treat minorities. And while I can see some of the mistakes the Jedi made, I don't see them as evil. Escpecially compared to the Sith. The source of the Sith's power is to look inward and concentrate on self. And though there have been Jedi that have fallen, the ones that haven't, didn't kill their masters in their sleep in their quest for power.

decadentdave
12-30-2005, 01:00 AM
And though there have been Jedi that have fallen, the ones that haven't, didn't kill their masters in their sleep in their quest for power.

LOL! That's why I love the Sith! They are sneaky! :twisted:

DarkArtist
12-30-2005, 04:41 PM
I retract my statement earlier about minorities if it has offended people, but truth be told, in the world today, minorities are treated differently then others. In no way do I agree with the statement, and should say that I feel all are equal, however the world in some places does look down on minorites.

I was using it as an example of Palpatine's and the Empire views of the alien population within the Star Wars Universe.

DarkArtist
12-30-2005, 04:56 PM
Also the reason I asked this question is because I'm reading the new book Dark Lord : The rise of Darth Vader and it the book it seems to me that Vader is sometimes regretting joining the dark side, but it also paints the picture that the Jedi with all their power were blinded by the dark side. Plus as I said earlier, Star Wars is told through the eyes of the Jedi it seems. It could be one-sided, therefore the Sith are painted a evil stain on the galaxy. If the story was told through a different perscpective, say the Sith, it goes without saying that the Jedi would be the painted stain.

True this a debate that can go on forever, with neither side emerging as the victor, but the question has merit. Each side has it's view on how the galaxy should be run, and if you read the book as well as listen to Anakin's statement in ROTS " I can overthrow the Emperor, and together you and I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be." To me I think he was saying perhaps the ideas that he and Padme shared at one point was he hoped the galaxy could be run, less democratic and more republician perhaps.

I guess what I am saying is read the book, watch the movie again and think in a new light and not what is written and what has already been told. In essence look at the movies from a different / "certain point of view." After all Obi Wan told Luke, "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Turbowars
12-30-2005, 05:31 PM
And though there have been Jedi that have fallen, the ones that haven't, didn't kill their masters in their sleep in their quest for power.That pretty much falsifies your Opinion doesn't it DarkArtist.;)

plasticfetish
12-30-2005, 07:12 PM
But as for making the Jedi evil, there's no question in my mind that this was pulled from the vacuum of Anakin's bum during ROTS, at best Lucas tries to make the Jedi order look complacent and dulled in the prequels, but that line about them being "evil" seems to come right out of nowhere IMO.I think what Lucas was trying to convey during the prequels is an idea that though the Jedi are a class of people that live by a very specific moral code (like Samurai), they aren't infact perfect. They have their flaws, but because of the power and authority that they hold, those flaws are more significant than those of the average person. So, in a sense DarkArtist has a point about the Jedi being "evil" -- but I wouldn't say evil so much as "fallible," and they're biggest mistake, as Yoda mentions, is letting their egos get the better of them. If you think about it, Obi-Wan and Anakin are two really cocky cowboys in Episode III. There's a breakdown of discipline going on there, which probably has someting to do with Obi-wan being too young to train Anakin. Their relationship becomes more like "brothers" than master and padawan.

Anyway... it's just another flaw in the prequel storyline that Lucas didn't really push and exaggerate that concept.

This is a whole different issue, but...

Seems like this could turn into a Rancor pit discussion. I object to the comment about the way we treat minorities.It could, but it won't... because we're not talking about specifics, we're speaking in terms of generalities, and it can be agreed that in general our society and species -- even at it's best and most democratic -- tends to favor the "majority" and oppress minorities. (A "minority" doesn't have to be a specific race of people either.) In these movies, the Emperor represent the classic dictator who claws and manipulates himself to the top, leading a devoted but misguided group of supporters. Obviously the comparison to Hitler (given Lucas' love of WW2 references) is an obvious one, but the concept -- as with most of them in Star Wars -- can be expanded to cover a wider range of examples.

It's funny, but back in the '70s when the first film came out, it was pretty obvious to everyone just what was being said when it came to "good vs. evil" and this concept of the "hero" up against a nearly all powerful enemy. Given the times, people tended to be very receptive of the "us against them" kind of thing -- and the idea that the Empire represented corrupt "authority."

As the movies came out and the story moved along, the issues became more and more complicated, until today with the prequels we have this kind of muddy "who's the bad guy?" kind of debate -- which I suppose is very much where our world is today.

So then, maybe it's not "just another flaw in the prequel storyline" that Lucas didn't really push or exaggerate any one concept. Maybe the point was always to try and echo the times, just as the first film did 25+ years ago.

JON9000
12-30-2005, 08:12 PM
there's no question in my mind that this was pulled from the vacuum of Anakin's bum during ROTS, at best Lucas tries to make the Jedi order look complacent and dulled in the prequels, but that line about them being "evil" seems to come right out of nowhere IMO.
I don't think it was so complicated as that. Anakin did some naughty things, and he rationalized it away with that belief.

We see what we want to believe, and nobody believes that they are evil- it is always the other guy. Incidentally, "Hero" with Jet Li makes an interesting counter to ROTS.

DarkArtist
12-31-2005, 02:03 PM
That pretty much falsifies your Opinion doesn't it DarkArtist.;)

How So ?

The title of the thread was In my opinion the Jedi are evil which is what Anakin says to Obi Wan on Mustafar. However this is not my opinion of what the Jedi are.

All I'm saying is that there are two sides to every story and therefore one can believe what they want. Perhaps some believe the way of the Sith is right, while others might believe that the way of the Jedi is right.

JediTricks
12-31-2005, 03:56 PM
PF, I think you are splitting a pretty big hair with that "evil from a certain point of view" comment, even you yourself paint a picture of "fallible" which isn't evil, I'm not seeing how there's an "in a sense" mentality connecting the 2.

Jon, I don't think Anakin *believes* that statement when he says it, he is just lashing out, he even cries about his own evil deeds, I don't believe he or Palps see themselves as *good* and the Jedi *evil*.

Now if the prequels had worked on the idea that the Sith consider themselves SUPERIOR to the Jedi, that they see the Jedi having squandered their powers (something which the EU backstory on Dooku touches on, but the movie never delivers), then it would have been great to have Anakin feel he's taking the moral high ground while arguing with Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS, saying "The Jedi aren't worthy of their connection to the Force, they don't deserve to live, they are beneath me!" I think that would have made Vader an actual character who *believed* in something which led to his superiority and joining of the Sith, but even that wouldn't open the door for the notion of seeing the Jedi as "evil", just wasteful ants that need to be swept away.

plasticfetish
12-31-2005, 04:28 PM
PF, I think you are splitting a pretty big hair with that "evil from a certain point of view" comment, even you yourself paint a picture of "fallible" which isn't evil, I'm not seeing how there's an "in a sense" mentality connecting the 2.Well, I said he had a point, but I didn't say that it was a strong one. ;)

Sure, it's a stretch to push the "evil from a certain point of view" concept, and the problem is... that it's also how Lucas drives a big part of the story along. By that I mean, that the whole "Palpatine convinces everyone that the Jedi are evil" thing is based pretty much on him just saying so. (Did he even say so really, or did the story just start moving in that direction at some point?)

edit: ...and then I re-read your last paragraph and I think that's pretty much what you had said also. So... yeah. :)

JediTricks
01-01-2006, 06:01 PM
I never thought Palps even fully convinced people the Jedi were evil when the fall came, he had his troops do it and didn't care whether or not folks bought it, Palps had all the power and could get away with it (this is why I wish Palps *had* used the people as the Sith weapon to destroy the Jedi), 20 years later in ANH people don't seem to act like the Jedi in their midst is evil, just a goof.

El Chuxter
01-02-2006, 11:47 AM
In my opinion, this was the weakest line of the film. It was hokey on par with that exchange from Witness:

Amish dude: Eet eez not oura vay.
Harrison Ford: But it's my way.

:)

TheDarthVader
01-03-2006, 09:14 PM
We study a writing element in college English which is called "exaggeration"; which is what Anakin was doing.

B.
TDV

Phantom-like Menace
01-06-2006, 11:39 PM
Though I very much agree it was Lucas's intent to show the Jedi had become arrogant and set in their ways, it's a drastic stretch from that to evil. The arrogance and intractability of the Jedi were simply the flaws Lucas wrote into them to lead to their downfall, not a sign of evil.

As for everything Anakin said about the Sith and the Jedi, I figure it was all his desperate attempt to justify his actions. As far as his statement about the Jedi being evil, I hesitate to trace the source back to bum vacuum, but it was fairly much unsupported talk Anakin said more for the sake of justification than conviction. My favorite part of Anakin's justification game was whether or not Mace should have killed Palpatine. What Anakin says about Palpatine's needing to stand trial is noble and just, but it means just as little to him as whining about the Jedi. He wants one thing, and that is to save Padme, and I would certainly be quite the BAMF to save the woman I loved too.

I think when people say the bad guys view themselves as the good guys, it misleads. Often people read a statement like that and think the intent is to say the bad guys feel they do no evil. If I went out right now, found a serial killer and killed him in cold blood, did I do a good thing? Arguably. Did I do an evil thing? Absolutely! There is no argument whether or not that was an evil act. I might even be able to allow that the good I did outweighed the evil.

JediTricks would know what I mean when I point to the Operative from Serenity. He felt he was doing good but he was under absolutely no delusion that his actions weren't evil and highly so.

Edit: Changed the last sentence from . . . he was under absolutely no delusion that he wasn't evil and highly so.

decadentdave
01-07-2006, 02:05 AM
I think when people say the bad guys view themselves as the good guys, it misleads. Often people read a statement like that and think the intent is to say the bad guys feel they do no evil. If I went out right now, found a serial killer and killed him in cold blood, did I do a good thing? Arguably. Did I do an evil thing? Absolutely! There is no argument whether or not that was an evil act. I might even be able to allow that the good I did outweighed the evil.
You make a good argument about the taking of life, no matter how justified, as a cold-blooded act of evil, however, I believe there are times when the taking of another human being's life is absolutely necessary and not an act of evil. Let's use your example of killing a known serial killer. By killing him you have not only saved other innocent victims from this merciless psychopath but you have done him a favor by freeing his twisted soul from the purgatory of this mortal coil. I also believe that killing in self defense is justified and not an evil act. When someone is intent on harming you or someone you love, or another innocent victim, and you have the power to stop them from doing harm, then it is a moral imperative to stop them by any means necessary, even if that means justifiable homicide. I don't want to get into a debate here about Right To Life or arguing justice so I'll get back on topic.

Obi-Wan realized that it was his moral obligation to kill Anakin because he had become a very great threat. Does that make him or the Jedi evil? Does Mace trying to end the corruption of Palpatine's rule make him evil as well?

Was Anakin rationalizing? Absolutely. Was he selfish? Absolutely. Are the Jedi evil? Only from a certain point of view. And as it has been said before, good and evil are always opposing points of view. Nations go to war because one side believes they are "Good" and the other side is "Evil" and vice versa. George Bush sees Iraq as "Evil" and they see the United States as "Evil." Such absolutism is really kind of ignorant, isn't it? It becomes an inescapable cycle.

Palpatine told Anakin that the Sith and the Jedi are identical in ALMOST every way. That is correct. They really on their passion for their strength and think only of themselves and the Jedi are selfless. Greed is the motivator for all evil acts. To kill someone in self defense or justifiable homicide is NOT motivated by Greed which is the root of all evil.

decadentdave
01-07-2006, 02:21 AM
In my opinion, this was the weakest line of the film. It was hokey on par with that exchange from Witness:

Amish dude: Eet eez not oura vay.
Harrison Ford: But it's my way.

:)

Chuxter, you crack me up! I love that film! John Book rules!

JediTricks
01-08-2006, 01:26 AM
JediTricks would know what I mean when I point to the Operative from Serenity. He felt he was doing good but he was under absolutely no delusion that his actions weren't evil and highly so.Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, even when they know the underlying motives are "for the best", they still recognize that the wrong actions in service to those motives they take are "evil". So even if we are to believe that Anakin now believes that the Sith's motivation to rule the galaxy is "right", I don't see how we can believe he sees what he is doing is "good", and that is only exacerbated by the way Lucas has Anakin react to his Sithly deeds.



Was Anakin rationalizing? Absolutely. Was he selfish? Absolutely. Are the Jedi evil? Only from a certain point of view.What point of view though? I've been having this same discussion in email with a friend for months and I haven't seen any compelling evidence which hints that from *any* point of view the audience is supposed to be let in on that the Jedi could possibly be seen as evil by Anakin. Where is that "certain point of view" in the movie, what leads our character to believe that, and what evidence is shown to the audience which supports that?

decadentdave
01-08-2006, 01:58 AM
What point of view though? I've been having this same discussion in email with a friend for months and I haven't seen any compelling evidence which hints that from *any* point of view the audience is supposed to be let in on that the Jedi could possibly be seen as evil by Anakin. Where is that "certain point of view" in the movie, what leads our character to believe that, and what evidence is shown to the audience which supports that?
Gee, I thought it was *obvious* that the point of view is Anakin's. First, he gets the shaft by Mace "Take A Seat" Windu and denied a seat on the council because, as Palpatine tells him, "they don't trust you, Anakin," and about how the Jedi are trying to take control of the Republic and then when Anakin sees Mace attempting to "assasinate" the Chancellor he completely buys into the Sith point of view that the Jedi are evil and later he sees Padme conspiring against him and feels betrayed by Obi-Wan so if you follow the narrative from Anakin's point of view, then yeah, I see exactly what he means when he says "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

Sorry, but if you haven't already noticed by my affiliation with the Dark Side that I am very Sith biased so naturally I am going to take side with Anakin's point of view that the Jedi are evil! :twisted:

JediTricks
01-08-2006, 03:48 AM
Gee, I thought it was *obvious* that the point of view is Anakin's.That's *whose* point of view, not what it is.


First, he gets the shaft by Mace "Take A Seat" Windu and denied a seat on the council because, as Palpatine tells him, "they don't trust you, Anakin,"That's pretty thin IMO, it's not like they show Anakin continuing to suffer over this one, they come off as jerks but Anakin comes off as a jerk too and seems to know it, when Palps talks about the Jedi and Sith being similar, Anakin rebutts this by pointing out that the Sith focus only inward while the Jedi are selfless.


when Anakin sees Mace attempting to "assasinate" the Chancellor he completely buys into the Sith point of view that the Jedi are evilI don't buy this at all, Anakin himself threatened Palpatine's life with his own lightsaber and didn't only because of what Palps was offering him in terms of saving Padme. The way the movie plays out, Anakin's concern when Mace is about to strike is keeping Palps alive long enough to help him save Padme, the movie hammers this notion into us over and over, and Anakin's earlier claims about the Sith focusing inwards reinforces that he's not seeing any higher ground.


The saga says in no uncertain terms that the Sith *are* evil and the Jedi are not. In ROTS, there are a few little things when Palps tries to plant seeds to the contrary, but the movie doesn't show any of those seeds blossoming in the protagonist Anakin.

decadentdave
01-08-2006, 10:53 AM
That's *whose* point of view, not what it is.

That's pretty thin IMO, it's not like they show Anakin continuing to suffer over this one, they come off as jerks but Anakin comes off as a jerk too and seems to know it, when Palps talks about the Jedi and Sith being similar, Anakin rebutts this by pointing out that the Sith focus only inward while the Jedi are selfless.
The Jedi are arrogant direspectful jerks to Anakin. Why? Because, as Palpatine told him, they don't trust him because they fear his power and lack of self restraint. Mace "Take A Seat" Windu was a Jerk to Anakin ever since he was a little boy. You can see it in all 3 films and even more so in ROTS. I can sympathize. I know people that have treated me that way most of my life and inside you feel so humiliated and have such resentment for them that you just want to hate them with a passion. Anakin tries to be the good son and play along to try to earn their respect to get what he wants and because he respects Obi-Wan but you can see his resentment building inside, especially when he says goodbye to Obi-Wan and humbly admits his own arrogance and tells him that he has been so frustrated by the council. You can really see the resentment behind his eyes during his admission.


I don't buy this at all, Anakin himself threatened Palpatine's life with his own lightsaber and didn't only because of what Palps was offering him in terms of saving Padme. The way the movie plays out, Anakin's concern when Mace is about to strike is keeping Palps alive long enough to help him save Padme, the movie hammers this notion into us over and over, and Anakin's earlier claims about the Sith focusing inwards reinforces that he's not seeing any higher ground.
True, Anakin's motive is selfish for his own concerns for Padme, but walking into the Chancellor's office and seeing Mace with his saber ready to strike down a seemingly helpless Palpatine only reinforces the idea Palpatine had made about the Jedi's treasonous motives trying to take control of the Republic. So from that point of view it makes the Jedi look like they are the bad guys.



The saga says in no uncertain terms that the Sith *are* evil and the Jedi are not. In ROTS, there are a few little things when Palps tries to plant seeds to the contrary, but the movie doesn't show any of those seeds blossoming in the protagonist Anakin.
I don't disagree with that but what makes ROTS the exception is the strength of the narrative that brilliantly casts doubt on the films protagonists so that you do see certain events from Anakin's skewed point of view, no matter how screwed up and flawed it may be, and that is the weakness of his character. Lucas always said the saga is Vader's story and since ROTS is the nexus of the entire saga, we actually are taken into his psyche to try to understand the how and why that made him turn to the Dark Side. Do you think it was just because he feared for Padme's life? No, it has been building all of his life. From being a slave to seeing his mother killed to being ostracized by the Jedi. I think ROTS is absolutely brilliant in this regard that it makes you question the protagonists and I am proud to say it is my favorite film in the saga.

JediTricks
01-08-2006, 07:34 PM
The Jedi are arrogant direspectful jerks to Anakin. Why? Because, as Palpatine told him, they don't trust him because they fear his power and lack of self restraint.It seems like because Anakin is young and arrogant and a jerk himself, even Anakin seems to recognize his own failings at times in Eps 2 and 3. Anakin demands their respect rather than earning it or knowing his current place in the hierarchy, and when he gets rebuffed for that behavior he throws a fit but he later seems to recognize that it's a problem.


Mace "Take A Seat" Windu was a Jerk to Anakin ever since he was a little boy. You can see it in all 3 films and even more so in ROTS.This is true, although I think Mace actually is less of a tool towards Anakin in ROTS, but the films don't show Anakin viewing Mace as a reflection of the Jedi as a whole, he seems to respect Obi-Wan and Yoda and others.


I can sympathize. I know people that have treated me that way most of my life and inside you feel so humiliated and have such resentment for them that you just want to hate them with a passion.Ok, but Anakin doesn't seem to feel that way when he reports back to Mace that Palps is a Sith, not even when Anakin cuts off Mace's arm does he seem to act in malice.


True, Anakin's motive is selfish for his own concerns for Padme, but walking into the Chancellor's office and seeing Mace with his saber ready to strike down a seemingly helpless Palpatine only reinforces the idea Palpatine had made about the Jedi's treasonous motives trying to take control of the Republic. So from that point of view it makes the Jedi look like they are the bad guys.I don't buy that, Anakin seems quite sure why leaving the Sith in power is a *bad* thing, I don't think that if Padme's life were not at stake Anakin would have had any qualms about offing Sidious.

Even for the sake of argument if we say that when Anakin saw Mace about to strike Palps was when Ani decided the Jedi might be "evil" due to that action, keep in mind that the movies have shown us that the Jedi have no qualms about killing if it's warranted, so while Ani might have only seen Mace with a saber to Palps' throat and thought Mace was killing a helpless enemy (this assuming Ani ignored the bodies of the 3 dead Jedi in the room he just dashed through), once Ani disarmed Mace and Palps showed his true power zapping Mace out the window, that would reverse Ani's thinking that Mace was in the wrong.


I don't disagree with that but what makes ROTS the exception is the strength of the narrative that brilliantly casts doubt on the films protagonists so that you do see certain events from Anakin's skewed point of view, no matter how screwed up and flawed it may be, and that is the weakness of his character.I suppose then that for an audience member such as myself who doesn't see the movie telling it that way, the movie wouldn't really work too well (and for me, it doesn't). I don't think the movie sells the notion at all, if it does it's very soft and mired.


Lucas always said the saga is Vader's story"always" is a subjective term here, Lucas has actually said it's a lot of characters' stories, nearly all of them. But originally it was Luke's story, in the 2nd draft of The Star Wars, Luke Starkiller is "the one" from the prophecy of the son of the suns, not his father nor his brothers.


we actually are taken into his psyche to try to understand the how and why that made him turn to the Dark Side. Do you think it was just because he feared for Padme's life? No, it has been building all of his life. From being a slave to seeing his mother killed to being ostracized by the Jedi. I think ROTS is absolutely brilliant in this regard that it makes you question the protagonistsThe answer to the question in here, based on what I saw in Ep 3, is "absolutely", the movie sells that element so hard and lets others drift away so quickly - not to mention that Anakin's joining the Sith comes on like the flick of a switch and then he acts like he regrets it over and over - that Vader ends up not standing for anything at all. ROTS doesn't work for me even a little and this is one of the chief reasons for me.

decadentdave
01-08-2006, 09:54 PM
It seems like because Anakin is young and arrogant and a jerk himself, even Anakin seems to recognize his own failings at times in Eps 2 and 3. Anakin demands their respect rather than earning it or knowing his current place in the hierarchy, and when he gets rebuffed for that behavior he throws a fit but he later seems to recognize that it's a problem.
That's right. He *demands* it. He is so sure of himself and demands to be given his rightful place among the Council which is precisely why they don't give it to him. Like I said, he tries to play the good son at times when he tries to humble himself before Obi-Wan and Mace to try to earn a little more respect, but he is obviously being manipulative so he can secure his own selfish ambitions and be given more autonomy to do what he wants.


This is true, although I think Mace actually is less of a tool towards Anakin in ROTS, but the films don't show Anakin viewing Mace as a reflection of the Jedi as a whole, he seems to respect Obi-Wan and Yoda and others.
He respects them, to a degree. Remember in AOTC he, not once, but twice talked smack about Obi-Wan to Padme, in her apartment he complained how Obi-Wan was overly critical and how he wasn't given the respect he felt he deserved, and after his mother's death he says it's all Obi-Wan's fault. Anakin is using displacement to project his own failings in himself onto others. From HIS point of view though, he feels that they are always antagonizing him.


Ok, but Anakin doesn't seem to feel that way when he reports back to Mace that Palps is a Sith, not even when Anakin cuts off Mace's arm does he seem to act in malice.
Anakin felt compelled by his responsibility to the Order to report what he had learned and by informing Mace perhaps to even earn his trust. When he arrives in the Chancellor's office and sees Mace ready to slay a helpless Palpatine, the man who has been like a Father to him and wants to help him save the woman he loves, he begins to see things from the Sith point of view that the Jedi are traitors to the Republic which is echoed later when he tells Obi-Wan "I should have known the Jedi would try to take over the Republic." At this point, he's actually convinced himself. Of course rationalizing this may help ease his conscience when he makes that crucial decision to stop Mace from following through as witnessed by his own shock when he says "What have I done." At that point, he realizes he is in deep s*** for what he has done and there is no turning back which is why he surrenders himself to the Dark Side and pledges his allegiance to Sidious. He does what he has to do to save Padme so they can rule the galaxy and make things the way they want them to be. Delusional? Yes. But that is the way Anakin perceives the universe around him.


I don't buy that, Anakin seems quite sure why leaving the Sith in power is a *bad* thing, I don't think that if Padme's life were not at stake Anakin would have had any qualms about offing Sidious. I'm sure if the threat of Padme's life were not present then the situation would be quite different. However, Anakin still respected Palpatine and the Republic, for which it stood. At first, he wanted to kill Palpatine because he knew about his dreams of Padme's death but when he says he is going to turn him over to the Jedi Council and Palpatine responds "Of course, you should, but you're not sure of their intentions," there is enough doubt in Anakin's mind at this moment that he is not sure whose side he should be standing on. Therein lies his dillema. Obviously Palpatine blackmails him with the lie that he can save Padme from death. Palpatine is obviously trying to save his own skin.


Even for the sake of argument if we say that when Anakin saw Mace about to strike Palps was when Ani decided the Jedi might be "evil" due to that action, keep in mind that the movies have shown us that the Jedi have no qualms about killing if it's warranted, so while Ani might have only seen Mace with a saber to Palps' throat and thought Mace was killing a helpless enemy (this assuming Ani ignored the bodies of the 3 dead Jedi in the room he just dashed through), once Ani disarmed Mace and Palps showed his true power zapping Mace out the window, that would reverse Ani's thinking that Mace was in the wrong. As I mentioned before, Anakin realizes what he has done and that there is no turning back which is why he pledges himself to Sidious and has no reservations about going to the Jedi Temple and killing all the Jedi and the Seperatists on Mustafar so that he can save Padme.


I suppose then that for an audience member such as myself who doesn't see the movie telling it that way, the movie wouldn't really work too well (and for me, it doesn't). I don't think the movie sells the notion at all, if it does it's very soft and mired. You may not agree with it, Jeditricks, but that is the reason why you are not a Sith.


"always" is a subjective term here, Lucas has actually said it's a lot of characters' stories, nearly all of them. But originally it was Luke's story, in the 2nd draft of The Star Wars, Luke Starkiller is "the one" from the prophecy of the son of the suns, not his father nor his brothers. Yeah, it originally was Luke's story in the OT but now that the saga is complete we really see that it is primarily Anakin's story. Luke is just part of the story, as is Obi-Wan, Leia, etc. I'm sure that we could retell the saga from the point of view of every major character and see the outcome of events from very different points of view. Actually, that would be very interesting to see.


The answer to the question in here, based on what I saw in Ep 3, is "absolutely", the movie sells that element so hard and lets others drift away so quickly - not to mention that Anakin's joining the Sith comes on like the flick of a switch and then he acts like he regrets it over and over - that Vader ends up not standing for anything at all. ROTS doesn't work for me even a little and this is one of the chief reasons for me. Vader realizes that he was trapped the moment he screams "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!" (which I always took as a nod to Luke's corny scream on Bespin). Of course Anakin realized that he was played which is why he wants to overthrow the Emperor as he says to both Padme on Mustafar and then Luke on Bespin "I can overthrow him... bring peace to the Republic... make things the way we want them to be," "You can destroy the Emperor... join me and we can rule the galaxy as father and son." The reason being is that as Vader, Anakin will always be just a tool subserviant to the Emperor the way that he was subservient to the Jedi. Anakin, in his lust for power, wants everything for himself, and that is the true nature of the Dark Side.

Phantom-like Menace
01-09-2006, 12:13 AM
It seems kind of hard to describe Anakin as truly having a point of view either way in regard to whether or not the Jedi are evil or not. He's so caught up in self that his limited view seems to construe anyone standing in his way as evil but anyone helping him as righteous. I would say it is less that the Jedi are evil from Anakin's point of view than it is that evil from Anakin's point of view is whoever is telling him no. The least the boy needs is a dictionary and to calm his *** down.

The most compelling evidence that Anakin thinks the Jedi are evil is that Mace was willing to kill Palpatine, and even if we ignore opinions that he didn't give a rip about anything more than saving Padme, we have to look at the fact that Anakin derides the notion of law over order throughout the series and cleary doesn't care about something as mundane as due process. His only point of view is summed up when he tells Obi-Wan he is either with him or his enemy.

decadentdave
01-09-2006, 12:56 AM
It seems kind of hard to describe Anakin as truly having a point of view either way in regard to whether or not the Jedi are evil or not. He's so caught up in self that his limited view seems to construe anyone standing in his way as evil but anyone helping him as righteous. I would say it is less that the Jedi are evil from Anakin's point of view than it is that evil from Anakin's point of view is whoever is telling him no. The least the boy needs is a dictionary and to calm his *** down.
For the most part, I would agree with that statement, nevertheless, he does adamently feel as though they betrayed him.


The most compelling evidence that Anakin thinks the Jedi are evil is that Mace was willing to kill Palpatine, and even if we ignore opinions that he didn't give a rip about anything more than saving Padme, we have to look at the fact that Anakin derides the notion of law over order throughout the series and cleary doesn't care about something as mundane as due process. His only point of view is summed up when he tells Obi-Wan he is either with him or his enemy. Correct. He also feels that the Order has betrayed him when he says to Padme, "The Jedi turned against me, don't you turn against me," but also when he says to Obi-Wan that "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." He gives Kenobi the ultimatum to side with him in an attempt to assuage his being forced to kill his former Master. Anakin is drawing a line in the sand like a schoolyard bully when he says "Don't make me kill you."

JediTricks
01-09-2006, 03:36 PM
Like I said, he tries to play the good son at times when he tries to humble himself before Obi-Wan and Mace to try to earn a little more respect, but he is obviously being manipulative so he can secure his own selfish ambitions and be given more autonomy to do what he wants.That doesn't remind me of the movies I saw, Ep 2 and 3 didn't seem to show Anakin trying to secure his own wants and needs, look at his breakdown in front of Padme on Tatooine, he's not trying to manipulate Obi-Wan or Mace there and if he thinks admitting to genocide and going all mental at Padme is gonna get him his way, he needs to spend a little less time in the Jedi Temple if you know what I mean. :p


He respects them, to a degree. Remember in AOTC he, not once, but twice talked smack about Obi-Wan to Padme, in her apartment he complained how Obi-Wan was overly critical and how he wasn't given the respect he felt he deserved, and after his mother's death he says it's all Obi-Wan's fault. Anakin is using displacement to project his own failings in himself onto others. From HIS point of view though, he feels that they are always antagonizing him.I guess here's my problem, he talks smack and then realizes his failure, he respects them "to a degree", but he can't just go part-way with these things, we the audience are only given 4 hours with the character and we don't have much time to watch Anakin's character develop WHILE it's flip-flopping, that type of storytelling works against the character's end point. If this is caused by Lucas trying to have his character both ways, thinking he can make him sympathetically evil, I don't think it's possible and it ends up watering down the character.



When he arrives in the Chancellor's office and sees Mace ready to slay a helpless Palpatine, the man who has been like a Father to him and wants to help him save the woman he loves, he begins to see things from the Sith point of view that the Jedi are traitors to the RepublicThe movie in that scene *doesn't* effectively show him thinking this, the movie sells only the idea that Anakin is arguing to save Padme's life, the notion that the character is also questioning his faith in the Jedi's selflessness is not played here at all and very poorly set-up. My theory is this was lost from being rewritten and reshot over and over late in the game.


(disarming Mace) At that point, he realizes he is in deep s*** for what he has done and there is no turning back which is why he surrenders himself to the Dark Side and pledges his allegiance to Sidious.I don't get why "there is no turning back" from here, at this point there are no witnesses except for Palpatine, Mace is dead and Anakin could just as easily destroy or arrest Palps and claim Mace was killed by Palps - which is true, from a certain point of view ;) - or he could just leave Palps in power and not say anything, say he doesn't know what happened, just like when he decapitated Count Dooku. I'm not saying any of these options is more likely, just that I don't understand why everybody keeps saying Anakin was out of options, it's like an excuse for why he joined the Sith so tacitly but it's not really true.


He does what he has to do to save Padme so they can rule the galaxy and make things the way they want them to be. Delusional? Yes. But that is the way Anakin perceives the universe around him.Here's another thing that just came out of nowhere in this movie, granted we saw a tiny hint of this in Ep 2, but that's not enough to claim a real set-up for this discovery near the end of Ep 3.


You may not agree with it, Jeditricks, but that is the reason why you are not a Sith.That would also explain why only 2 people actually like the movie. :D

decadentdave
01-09-2006, 06:19 PM
That doesn't remind me of the movies I saw, Ep 2 and 3 didn't seem to show Anakin trying to secure his own wants and needs, look at his breakdown in front of Padme on Tatooine, he's not trying to manipulate Obi-Wan or Mace there and if he thinks admitting to genocide and going all mental at Padme is gonna get him his way, he needs to spend a little less time in the Jedi Temple if you know what I mean. :p
Anakin wants to be a Jedi Master and he is continually rebuffed by the elders because he is impatient and headstrong. He "plays" along to try to get his way. I know how this is, I am the same way. I guess the reason why I can relate to Anakin so well is because I see so much of my younger self in him that it is scary. As much as it shames me to say it, I will be the first to admit that I am a selfish person. The only reason why I haven't totally gone to the Dark Side is because I have managed to learn the virtues of self discipline and restraint and a respect for others and not always think only of myself and these are virtues that are learned through experience and maturity. Anakin was immature and never learned these things which is why he fell to the Dark Side.


I guess here's my problem, he talks smack and then realizes his failure, he respects them "to a degree", but he can't just go part-way with these things, we the audience are only given 4 hours with the character and we don't have much time to watch Anakin's character develop WHILE it's flip-flopping, that type of storytelling works against the character's end point. If this is caused by Lucas trying to have his character both ways, thinking he can make him sympathetically evil, I don't think it's possible and it ends up watering down the character.

If Anakin completely respected the Jedi then he would not have fallen to the Dark Side now would he? He only meets them half way because he has one foot on the Dark Side and one foot on the light and he's constantly flip-flopping between the two. He goes berzerk and massacres the Tuskens then he's back with the Jedi pretending it never happened. This is who he is. Anakin is not the straight-edged do-gooder that you seemingly would like him to be. Again, I can relate. So many times I just want to go off on people but I have to struggle to hold myself back. I'm not exactly a play-by-the-rules kind of a guy and neither is Anakin. He definitely is not the poster boy for the Jedi recruitment office.


The movie in that scene *doesn't* effectively show him thinking this, the movie sells only the idea that Anakin is arguing to save Padme's life, the notion that the character is also questioning his faith in the Jedi's selflessness is not played here at all and very poorly set-up. My theory is this was lost from being rewritten and reshot over and over late in the game.

That is quite possible, but even the first time I saw Sith I saw it this way and was thinking how brilliant it was the Jedi were being cast in a different light that made you question what their intentions really were.


I don't get why "there is no turning back" from here, at this point there are no witnesses except for Palpatine, Mace is dead and Anakin could just as easily destroy or arrest Palps and claim Mace was killed by Palps - which is true, from a certain point of view ;) - or he could just leave Palps in power and not say anything, say he doesn't know what happened, just like when he decapitated Count Dooku. I'm not saying any of these options is more likely, just that I don't understand why everybody keeps saying Anakin was out of options, it's like an excuse for why he joined the Sith so tacitly but it's not really true.

So you are advocating that Anakin "lie" to the Jedi about it? But that is not the Jedi way! That would be the same as what I said before about Anakin killing the Tuskens or Dooku, and then going along about his Jedi business pretending it never happened. That is hypocritical to the Jedi philosophy. When Anakin killed Mace though, there was definitely no turning back. There was no way he could hide this from them or cover it up and the Jedi would not forgive him for what he had done. He had gone too far. The only option left for him was to go all the way so he could save Padme and get his way. It's like committing a crime... once you hold up a bank, you go all the way, there is no turning back once you've pulled out the gun.


Here's another thing that just came out of nowhere in this movie, granted we saw a tiny hint of this in Ep 2, but that's not enough to claim a real set-up for this discovery near the end of Ep 3.

In Clones he tells Padme that someone "should make the people listen" and Padme says "that sounds an awful lot like a Dictatorship," and Anakin's reply is "if it works." You can see from here that Anakin is a no-nonsense take-charge kind of a guy and if given the power to do what he says should be done, would do exactly that, "I have brought peace, freedom and justice to MY new empire." I saw this coming all along.


That would also explain why only 2 people actually like the movie. :D
Yeah, I think a lot more than just 2 people liked it. I'm an Old School Star Wars fan and I think it is even better than Empire and that's saying a LOT.

decadentdave
01-09-2006, 07:09 PM
When Anakin killed Mace though, there was definitely no turning back. There was no way he could hide this from them or cover it up and the Jedi would not forgive him for what he had done. He had gone too far.

What I meant by this was that he was an accomplice to murder when he "disarmed" him allowing the Emperor to strike him down. He may not have expected that Palpatine had the power to kill Mace but once he did, he knew it was too late at that point. Just anticipating your response to that one, JT.