PDA

View Full Version : "He's quite clever you know, for a human."



stillakid
02-01-2006, 08:49 AM
Really? C3PO has a high opinion of his master, Luke Skywalker, but should he really?

Our favorite golden droid uttered that statement in a time of great concern as Luke was missing out on the frozen wasteland that was Hoth. While everyone else was worried, Threepio tried to comfort the mood by suggesting that Luke would likely be just fine because he was a cut above the rest.

Upon further review of the events at the time, that conclusion should be questioned heartily. Luke found himself trapped within the cave of a Wampa snow creature. His only escape, the lightsaber which was placed intentionally (?) just out of his reach. Luke's escape activity caught the attention of the beast which immediately made threatening moves toward our hero. In a moment of what is best described as panic, Luke thrashes his laser sword out and manages to slice off the creature's arm.

Now, certainly such an episode would cause just about anyone to not think rationally, if not for a week, at least a few moments. But remember, our Luke is supposedly better than the rest of the human clan which awaits him back at Echo Base. Given that, it may be excusable that he ran like a little girl away from the Wampa who was obviously very annoyed by having one of his limbs sliced off. But once Luke gets his mind back in order and calms down, why didn't he turn back around, finish the creature off, and stay safely within the relatively "warm" confines of the cave while the blizzard howled outside? Instead, he reholstered his weapon, trudged blindly through the ice and snow, and collapsed all for dead.

Now, one might argue that he wasn't a Jedi yet and that this event helped to illustrate just how "unJedi-like" he really was and how much training he still needed. I'll buy that...sort of. Point being, even someone ordinary would be able to recognize when he had the upper hand and turn around to make Wampa Burgers in the effort to stay safe overnight until the rescue party could come.

So how "clever" was Luke really?

Kidhuman
02-01-2006, 09:54 AM
How did he know of there were more Wampas there? I would have ran too.

stillakid
02-01-2006, 10:11 AM
How did he know of there were more Wampas there? .
He only saw one, so the assumption would have been that there was only one. If more came out of the icework, then he could have dealt with that possibility then. But he chose to run out into the blizzard where even the simpliest of morons would know that death would be imminent.


I would have ran too.
Well, you're not "clever" Luke then, are you? ;) Of course any one of us would have run. That's exactly the point. Luke is supposed to be "quite clever you know, for a human." Apparently he isn't.

Kidhuman
02-01-2006, 10:15 AM
Bottom line, face death by freezing and have a chance at survival or stay in a cave that could be infested with Wampas that have already knocked me for a loop..... its a pick your poison situation, better odds on running I think. Clever...no, but neither was staying.

TheDarthVader
02-01-2006, 11:38 AM
I agree with stillakid (for once) on most points. Luke should have killed the beast and stayed in the cave. In psychology we study the "fight" or "flight" mechanism in the brain. This states that a person will either fight or take flight from danger. In this case, our "clever" Luke fights then flights. That does not make sense. Stillakid almost hit the nail on the head, but, instead of intelligence being the issue, human nature is the key point. In the human psyche it does not make sense to fight then take flight. A person will do one or the other. (thanks college education)

B.
TDV

starwarsfan1
02-01-2006, 11:40 AM
Besides would you be thinking clearly after you escaped a man eating beast? And another thing how many humans would have been able to escape the Wampa? I mean Luke only escaped because he used the force to grab his lightsaber. Anyone else who wasnt force sensitive would've been Wampa food. Think about that for a while stillakid.

JimJamBonds
02-01-2006, 11:46 AM
Was 3PO aware of what Luke was doing out there in the snow? Nope.

starwarsfan1
02-01-2006, 11:50 AM
Another great point JimJamBonds. Its true 3PO didnt know what Luke was doing and was basing his comment on Lukes past adventures.

bobafrett
02-01-2006, 01:28 PM
Luke spent most of his life growing up on a sand planet. Maybe he thought is was a warm day at the beach!

Besides what does C-3PO know about humans anyway. Dumb droid.

Bacta Beast
02-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Y'know maybe you're being too hard on Luke. Maybe Lucas is the one who wasn't so clever.:yes:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-01-2006, 06:36 PM
Maybe Luke had come to the conclusion to go back and kill the wampa, but just passed out before he could go back? I don't know.

stillakid
02-02-2006, 02:37 AM
Besides would you be thinking clearly after you escaped a man eating beast? And another thing how many humans would have been able to escape the Wampa? I mean Luke only escaped because he used the force to grab his lightsaber. Anyone else who wasnt force sensitive would've been Wampa food. Think about that for a while stillakid.

Okay, I thought about it and you're wrong. Now what?

But seriously, while I appreciate the compliments, Threepio's entire point was that Luke was more clever than most humans...including me. I know, as if that was possible. ;) But most of the arguments I've seen discounting my point here rely on comparing Luke to what ordinary yahoo's like us would do in a similar situation. Of course we'd run like little girls presuming that we'd survive the initial contact. But Luke is supposedly better than the rest of us pansies, so one should assume that he'd be smart enough to recognize that staying in a cave would be far more intelligent than wandering aimlessly through whiteout conditions outside. (and what's with this notion of a "nest" of Wampas? :confused: )

Bacta Beast
02-02-2006, 02:49 AM
Hey does anyone remember "Hunt the Wumpus"?! Man that was a great game!:thumbsup:

Slicker
02-02-2006, 04:43 AM
(and what's with this notion of a "nest" of Wampas? :confused: )I think people are getting that from the cut footage of the wampas attacking Echo Base. There were several of them and they attacked in a pack so naturally people must think that they also live in a pack.

As for the topic at hand I think it would do good to go over all of the situations that 3PO was involved in with Luke to get a better idea of how well he knows him. I really don't feel like doing that right now but I'll ponder it and get back later unless someone else beats me to the punch.

TheDarthVader
02-02-2006, 07:18 PM
Let me extend my point with a comparison. In ANH, Han Solo runs after the stormtroopers. Upon seeing a slew of them, he fires his blaster and runs back the way he came. Hmmm. Once again it seems as though we have a confusion in the flight or fight category.

I wonder how C3PO "measured" Luke's intelligence in the first place. ???????

B.
TDV

JediTricks
02-02-2006, 08:41 PM
His only escape, the lightsaber which was placed intentionally (?) just out of his reach. I believe the saber is there because it fell off his belt hook, as a hook works by way of gravity, when he was put upside-down in the ceiling it fell off and landed in the snow bank.


Luke's escape activity caught the attention of the beast which immediately made threatening moves toward our hero. In a moment of what is best described as panic, Luke thrashes his laser sword out and manages to slice off the creature's arm. Only the SEs say definitively whether Luke's actions were what brought the Wampa to the area, and that the Wampa survived being disarmed. Also, I thought Luke's demeanor in the scene was fairly composed for such a situation.


Now, certainly such an episode would cause just about anyone to not think rationally, if not for a week, at least a few moments. But remember, our Luke is supposedly better than the rest of the human clan which awaits him back at Echo Base. Given that, it may be excusable that he ran like a little girl away from the Wampa who was obviously very annoyed by having one of his limbs sliced off. But once Luke gets his mind back in order and calms down, why didn't he turn back around, finish the creature off, and stay safely within the relatively "warm" confines of the cave while the blizzard howled outside? Instead, he reholstered his weapon, trudged blindly through the ice and snow, and collapsed all for dead.Originally they filmed the movie to suggest that there were more Wampas harassing the Echo Base troops, so perhaps that threat was carried over into that scene's motivation.


Was 3PO aware of what Luke was doing out there in the snow? Nope.That's what I was going to say here, 3PO only knows that Luke was last seen on his Tauntaun and running late, the Tauntaun's pack has an emergency shelter, so by all accounts Luke should have been clever enough to deal with *that* situation and get himself into the shelter when he knew he couldn't get back to the base. Normal yahoos might try to brave the night chill and die attempting the overnight return to the base.

stillakid
02-02-2006, 09:28 PM
I believe the saber is there because it fell off his belt hook, as a hook works by way of gravity, when he was put upside-down in the ceiling it fell off and landed in the snow bank.
Yes, however it was not immediately under Luke. The weapon was offset from his location just enough to make one wonder if it was "removed" intentionally and placed just out of reach. Had it been specifically under Luke where gravity would have put it, then I would consider your point a little more.


Only the SEs say definitively whether Luke's actions were what brought the Wampa to the area, and that the Wampa survived being disarmed.
I suppose so, but regardless of what brought the Wampa to Luke's area at that precise time, Luke still had to deal with it. Wampa's motivation is immaterial.



Also, I thought Luke's demeanor in the scene was fairly composed for such a situation.
Seriously? Take another look at Luke's face in the moments just after the confrontation. He is scared sh**less and then he runs away into a snowbank.


Originally they filmed the movie to suggest that there were more Wampas harassing the Echo Base troops, so perhaps that threat was carried over into that scene's motivation.
Perhaps. But what could have been has no bearing on what is. Therefore we know of only one Wampa and have absolutely no reason nor cause to suspect that there would or could be more than what is seen.


That's what I was going to say here, 3PO only knows that Luke was last seen on his Tauntaun and running late, the Tauntaun's pack has an emergency shelter, so by all accounts Luke should have been clever enough to deal with *that* situation and get himself into the shelter when he knew he couldn't get back to the base. Normal yahoos might try to brave the night chill and die attempting the overnight return to the base.
I disagree with the premise of that argument on the basis that standard training and common sense would lead any human being to the basic conclusion that building a shelter would be the way to go. However Threepio's assertion is that Luke is above average suggesting that he would arrive at a solution to the "problem" (whatever that problem might be) that no ordinary human would and thus survive.

In other words, any yahoo could figure out to hide inside his packed shelter, but Threepio had cause to believe that Luke would arrive at a better solution than that. And from Luke's situation and Threepio's supposition, it seems to make more sense that Luke would not run like a little girl away from the cave. Instead, he would debilitate the "threat," assertain the situation, and then decide to kill the Wampa outright so that he could remain safely within the cave until the blizzard outside ceased. A "normal" human would not have the sensibility to render the Wampa "safe" so one would expect that running like a frightened girl into the freezing Hoth night would be behavior for a "normal" human like you or me. But Luke is supposedly better than that according to Threepio.

JediTricks
02-02-2006, 10:44 PM
Yes, however it was not immediately under Luke. The weapon was offset from his location just enough to make one wonder if it was "removed" intentionally and placed just out of reach. Had it been specifically under Luke where gravity would have put it, then I would consider your point a little more.It probably fell off when Luke was first being hung up there, the Wampa had to pick Luke up and turn him upside down, Luke didn't get beamed into that ice after all.


Take another look at Luke's face in the moments just after the confrontation.That's *after*, we were talking about WHEN it happened, when Luke faces off against that Wampa he doesn't just flip out or scream or swipe blindly.


I disagree with the premise of that argument on the basis that standard training and common sense would lead any human being to the basic conclusion that building a shelter would be the way to go.And you know this is their standard training how? And why wouldn't they try to get back to the base if conditions worsened slowly rather than instantly? I've known lots of folks who have been in that situation, nobody ever pulls over to the side of the road when a fog bank rolls, nobody slows down when the rain hits LA, human nature isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

stillakid
02-02-2006, 11:11 PM
It probably fell off when Luke was first being hung up there, the Wampa had to pick Luke up and turn him upside down, Luke didn't get beamed into that ice after all..
Probably. ;)


That's *after*, we were talking about WHEN it happened, when Luke faces off against that Wampa he doesn't just flip out or scream or swipe blindly...
Well, I don't agree entirely with that. Part of Luke's arc in this episode is the beginning when he has the tools but doesn't yet have the proper mindset to deal with adversity in the ways of a Jedi. He didn't calmly hit the ground and stand firmly to face the Wampa. It was a relatively uncontrolled swipe that just happened to remove an arm of the beast. But even if we disagree about that, the primary point was in regard to what occurs after the confrontation. Instead of standing his ground to finish the creature off, Luke runs away frightened into the bitter cold. Even if fear did cut off his common sense for a brief moment rendering him "human," someone who is "clever" would have the wherewithal to turn around and go make that cave his own for the evening.


And you know this is their standard training how? .
It's a reasonable assumption, much like the one we make when we assume they take a dump every now and then even though we never see it on screen.



And why wouldn't they try to get back to the base if conditions worsened slowly rather than instantly? I've known lots of folks who have been in that situation, nobody ever pulls over to the side of the road when a fog bank rolls, nobody slows down when the rain hits LA, human nature isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
True, but Luke is supposed to be more clever than the standard issue human being. That being said, taking an example like LA drivers ignores that many of them are inherently less intelligent than what the potential suggests as baseline for human beings. Dealing with adverse conditions ofttimes is a function of emotion rather than rational thought...for normal humans... as you suggest. However Luke is special and as such, we should be able to expect and witness a more measured and logical approach to his situation than what was seen in the film.

JimJamBonds
02-03-2006, 12:37 AM
That's what I was going to say here, 3PO only knows that Luke was last seen on his Tauntaun and running late, the Tauntaun's pack has an emergency shelter, so by all accounts Luke should have been clever enough to deal with *that* situation and get himself into the shelter when he knew he couldn't get back to the base. Normal yahoos might try to brave the night chill and die attempting the overnight return to the base.

Thank you sir.

JediTricks
02-03-2006, 04:35 AM
Probably. ;)Oh, I'm sorry, let's all go with your idea of super-intelligent snow monsters whose greatest joy is to taunt young Jedi by putting their lightsabers just outside of their reach and then sitting back with a good meal and watching the hilarious results. :p


I just thought of something, maybe Luke ain't so clever, he's so obsessed with his lightsaber that he doesn't bother to get out the blaster pistol still strapped to his right hip -- ok, I just checked the movie, the pistol too had fallen out... or maybe this was another masterful strategic gambit on the part of the ice creature: open the strap on Luke's holster, let gravity pull the pistol out since the creature's massive hands are far too big to do the job, and throw the gun away, then see if Luke rewards the beast for its ingenuity by making him the first wampa Snowspeeder pilot in the Rebel Alliance.


taking an example like LA drivers ignores that many of them are inherently less intelligent than what the potential suggests as baseline for human beings.That is a statistical impossibility, you are taking an average of people and then saying they're lesser than the average.

stillakid
02-03-2006, 07:24 AM
Oh, I'm sorry, let's all go with your idea of super-intelligent snow monsters whose greatest joy is to taunt young Jedi by putting their lightsabers just outside of their reach and then sitting back with a good meal and watching the hilarious results. :p
I agreed with you and you mocked me anyway? Odd. :sad:



I just thought of something, maybe Luke ain't so clever,
Ah, yes, isn't that the question at hand? Looking at what Luke actually did in the circumstances given and determining whether or not he is a cut above the rest (that being normal people like us).



That is a statistical impossibility, you are taking an average of people and then saying they're lesser than the average.
I thought of that, but then reconsidered the contradiction in light of the nonsense I see every day on the 405. Miracles do happen, but they aren't always good. :twisted:

JediTricks
02-03-2006, 03:07 PM
I thought of that, but then reconsidered the contradiction in light of the nonsense I see every day on the 405. Miracles do happen, but they aren't always good. :twisted:You know, if *you* are on the 405 when you see these things... ;)

stillakid
02-03-2006, 03:20 PM
You know, if *you* are on the 405 when you see these things... ;)

I'm slightly off center. :lipsrseal

darthvyn
02-03-2006, 11:44 PM
personally, i would've sliced the wampa, skinned it for it's hide and made a nice winter coat, then built some rudimentary cooking implements to make a batch of wampa jerky. mmmmm, mmmm! that's good wampa!

trandoshan666
03-05-2006, 08:58 PM
For whatever reason, I didn't notice this topic until the Oscars came on, so forgive me for chiming in so late.

I've always thought Luke bolted after hacking off the Wampa's arm simply to try to get back to base before they closed it down for the night. It wasn't dark when he left, and I've never gotten the feeling that there was really a blizzard outside for Luke to contend with (the weather seems par for the course) and I think of Echo base as being relatively close to the cave, which we have to assume was fairly close to the area in which Luke and his tauntaun were attacked, so his attempt to return didn't seem entirely irrational.

We also don't know how far he had gotten when he collapsed and saw Kenobi. We do know that Luke was cocky and prone to rushing into things, so his actions don't seem farfetched, regardless of how "clever" his droid thinks he is.

2-1B
03-07-2006, 03:23 AM
"Our" favorite golden droid? :confused: Not mine, this guy really sucks.

In part 6, C-3PO expresses his surprise at what appears to be his use of magic when Luke levitates him. This is also the same droid who "forgot" in part 4 that he turned off a comlink. Pretty dumb droid in my opinion. POS.

stillakid
03-07-2006, 08:32 AM
"Our" favorite golden droid? :confused: Not mine, this guy really sucks.
.

How many golden droids do you know? :confused:


;)

2-1B
03-07-2006, 11:16 AM
How does that by default make him by favorite ? :confused:

I guess GWB is your favorite current president then, stillakid. lol lol lol

stillakid
03-07-2006, 11:18 AM
How does that by default make him by favorite ? :confused:

I guess GWB is your favorite current president then, stillakid. lol lol lol

Yep!

Hey, I didn't invent the language, I just use it! :love:

Droid
03-07-2006, 02:38 PM
Maybe somebody already said this, but maybe Luke was doing the most Jedi-like thing by NOT killing the Wampa so Luke could have the cave all to himself. Maybe the smartest, most logical thing would have been to kill the Wampa and enjoy the cave, but it seems to me he did what Obi-wan taught him by example. He spared the Wampa, just as Obi-wan spared Walrusman. Luke did what he had to in order to protect himself, but he did not kill because it was unnecessary and not self defense. (Then again maybe a one armed Wampa can not survive on the harsh ice world of Hoth and maybe Luke gave the Wampa a slow painful existence in which it starved to death. Whose to say).

But maybe Luke went out into the cold, not because he was scared or not thinking, but so that he would not have to kill the creature. Maybe the Force was guiding Luke to the place where he would receive his message from Obi-wan. If Obi-wan thought Luke was in real danger he would have said, "Luke, Luke, you will go back into the cave. Later, I will tell you about Yoda, for now, into the cave."

2-1B
03-08-2006, 12:00 AM
personally, i would've sliced the wampa, skinned it for it's hide and made a nice winter coat, then built some rudimentary cooking implements to make a batch of wampa jerky. mmmmm, mmmm! that's good wampa!

Vyncent, I'd watch out for upset PETIC members (people for the ethical treatment of ice creatures) who might try to splash red paint on you for wearing Wampa fur.

JimJamBonds
03-08-2006, 12:17 AM
Vyncent, I'd watch out for upset PETIC members (people for the ethical treatment of ice creatures) who might try to splash red paint on you for wearing Wampa fur.

Lets not forget about the murder of such a beautiful creature for the purpose of feasting on its flesh.