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Tycho
02-10-2006, 02:41 PM
I really like this series. I think it's my favorite crew. The show has a cuteness factor that plays well. So far I've watched a little of Season 1 and I'm enjoying myself. I miss this show from back in the good 'ol days.

Tuvok
Janeway
Chakotay
Torres
Kim
Tom Paris
Holo-Doc
even Neelix and Kes added something in retrospect

JediTricks
02-10-2006, 02:50 PM
Wow, I am really surprised to hear you say it's your favorite crew, especially since DS9 is your favorite series. I found just about everything in VOY to be lacking, even Enterprise worked better for me and I didn't really like that show much either.

I still can't believe they were on the brink of giving the EMH his own name halfway into the series, Dr Zimmerman, they even added it to the Closed Captions, but pulled it at the last minute. That was really odd.

scruffziller
02-11-2006, 02:46 PM
I really liked Voyager because it expanded where NextGen left off. Especially with the Borg. Being one of my favorite villans, it was great to see them go into deeper depth with the Borg and reveal a great deal of their mystery. The way the series finale went down, Guinan would have been proud.:yes:

True, the acting was lacking and the charachters were thin but of what story arcs were good were really good and extremely solid. The best of all the series'.

JediTricks
02-11-2006, 07:21 PM
I didn't like where they took the Borg though, they made the Borg stupider and more "human" and vulnerable, they took something that we really couldn't fully understand and dumbed it down to fit the limited nature of the show. Plus, they gave the Borg transwarp which seemed pretty odd considering they didn't use it before (except when Lore helped them add it to their offspring humanized group).

Tycho
02-11-2006, 10:31 PM
I'm rewatching all seasons of Voyager (in chron order with DS9 and TNG movies) so I'll keep my eye on the Borg as I revisit them. They aren't prominent until 4th Season of Voyager and First Contact is just prior to that IIRC. Maybe Lore added to their technological improvements and they got Transwarp from him, but cut off their emotional confusion that Hugh added to the collective from Picard's abortive attempt to make an individual out of him? I'll be watching for inconsistancies, but I think right now it's premature to comment (for me).

JediTricks
02-12-2006, 04:07 AM
All the Borg that were under Lore's command were individuals and emotionally confused, my good Crosis (dunno why, but that Borg's name always sticks with me).

scruffziller
02-12-2006, 07:32 AM
my good Crosis (dunno why, but that Borg's name always sticks with me).

Because its a cool name.:D


I have more of an optimistic view on what Janeway did with the Borg. I don't see that they dumbed down the Borg, Janeway and crew just got smarter and ballsier. I believe it was her courage and smarts that got to the Borg's underbelly. Just because we couldn't see it when we first met them didn't mean it wasn't there. I certainly believe it was not easily accesible, the way the show portrayed it. I remember when I first saw Janeway go aboard the Borg vessel to negotiate for safe passage. I thought to myself, "SHE IS FRIGGIN' NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!" But as it went down, I thought, "WOW, what genius."

JediTricks
02-13-2006, 01:02 AM
They just happened to get smarter and better with the Borg than the Enterprise which had a more powerful ship and 10 times the crew to work on the problems PLUS the entire Starfleet which had been working on the Borg problem unsuccessfully for years. I didn't buy it.

Tycho
02-13-2006, 11:54 AM
Meanwhile, might I bring up Ceska? She was a cool villain character. I like what they did with her and the Maquis-Cardassian-Kazon epic.

darthvyn
02-13-2006, 01:30 PM
They just happened to get smarter and better with the Borg than the Enterprise which had a more powerful ship and 10 times the crew to work on the problems PLUS the entire Starfleet which had been working on the Borg problem unsuccessfully for years. I didn't buy it.

survival is a great motivator. in the alpha quadrant they've got all the backup they need. these guys are on their own, battling new threats every day. TNG crew grew soft on exploring the already-explored. that's why i liked voyager better than TNG. it had more of an original series feel to it, that they were REALLY in peril.

of course, i'm a casual viewer of trek so you can take my comments or leave them as you like.

scruffziller
02-13-2006, 02:41 PM
survival is a great motivator. in the alpha quadrant they've got all the backup they need. these guys are on their own, battling new threats every day. TNG crew grew soft on exploring the already-explored. that's why i liked voyager better than TNG. it had more of an original series feel to it, that they were REALLY in peril.

of course, i'm a casual viewer of trek so you can take my comments or leave them as you like.

Plus if I remeber correctly, they tried to hold on to their "starfleet ideals" the best they could but when the going got tough, they left it by the wayside. Remember what members of the Maquee said. That they had made some technological advances as a society because they were free of "Starfleet" regulations.

Tycho
02-13-2006, 07:09 PM
Yeah, I like how eventually they were trading arms for Voyager, etc. But the ship should have been made to look different when they finally got back. Instead, it never really evolved, save for some of the Borg technology they added for a season or so there.

See the pretty green lights?

darthvyn
02-13-2006, 07:30 PM
Yeah, I like how eventually they were trading arms for Voyager, etc. But the ship should have been made to look different when they finally got back. Instead, it never really evolved, save for some of the Borg technology they added for a season or so there.

that would've cost more money to change the computer model every episode they got new tech.

Tycho
02-13-2006, 07:40 PM
Oh: there's a concept: Spend money on effects rather than just guest stars, etc. for every episode when it's a science-fiction show! :rolleyes:

JediTricks
02-13-2006, 11:16 PM
The entire Alpha Quadrant was at risk for its survival from the threat of the Borg, just because Janeway wanted to get home doesn't mean she was fighting MORE than anybody else.

Tycho
02-13-2006, 11:23 PM
I just watched Holo-Doc's Beowolf adventure. Great character, great episode!


True, the acting was lacking and the characters were thin

I completely disagree. I'm a Niner, but the Voyager characters were awesome! The acting was great. I think some of the plots got weak. But not really in the first season. In fact, Voyager had one of the best first seasons of any Star Trek incarnation.

darthvyn
02-13-2006, 11:46 PM
The entire Alpha Quadrant was at risk for its survival from the threat of the Borg, just because Janeway wanted to get home doesn't mean she was fighting MORE than anybody else.

that's what i'm saying, though: they had the entire alpha quadrant full of federation ships backing them up. they get in a bind, and some kitbash model comes to the rescue... voyager was in the unknown regions that were filled with not only the borg, but other alien lifeforms previously unknown. it's not just "getting back home" - it's survival.

JediTricks
02-14-2006, 12:28 AM
The Borg brought the Alpha Quadrant to the brink, every ship available was there, Wolf 359 was "our" last stand, there was no backup there.

vulcantouch
02-14-2006, 01:01 AM
-indeed; TNG's signature villains were not the borg, but rather the romulans- they were they antags in most of TNG's best eps :) not only are the borg rightly Voy's turf, Voy simply has a higher overall batting average than TNG. while TNG did more eps than Voy, TNG has at most a few dozen eps that stand up to more than one viewing. Voy on the other hand has at least a hundred :)

jt: "made the Borg stupider and more 'human' and vulnerable"
-any examples come to mind? besides, wasn't it TNG's "descent" that did that first? ;)

"just happened to get smarter and better with the Borg than the Enterprise which had"
-and no wonder, since the collective was eventually revealed to be a matriarchy. if you want results, fight estrogen w/estrogen; to bring down one powerful dame, set another up against her, meowwwr :twisted:

"they didn't use it before"
-oh? then how Did they come 7000 lightyears in 1 year (between Q-who & BOBW)?

"every ship available was there, Wolf 359"
-and how many did we actually See at 359? a few model parts the effects dept. scorched w/zippos? TNG's attempt to write Around the space battles they couldn't afford was all too obvious and unsatisfying. by contrast, when DS9 and Voy scripts tantalized us with apocalyptic pyrotechnics, they delivered :D
vt

JediTricks
02-14-2006, 09:53 PM
I make no excuses for Descent except that that story was dealing with Borg separated from the collective, trying something different, REALLY different.

Can't think of too many specifics right now, I formed the opinion back when I watched Voy but I haven't watched a single ep again since original airing (same with Enterprise, Ch 4 here airs them already in syndication on the weekends, couldn't care less).


-and no wonder, since the collective was eventually revealed to be a matriarchy. if you want results, fight estrogen w/estrogen; to bring down one powerful dame, set another up against her, meowwwr :twisted:Hmm, so the producers' plan wasn't to make the Borg stupider, but the audience. :p


-oh? then how Did they come 7000 lightyears in 1 year (between Q-who & BOBW)?Tycho pointed out recently that the first ep we meet the Borg in TNG, they're only 2 years away at solid warp, much closer
the Delta quad.


-and how many did we actually See at 359? a few model parts the effects dept. scorched w/zippos? TNG's attempt to write Around the space battles they couldn't afford was all too obvious and unsatisfying. by contrast, when DS9 and Voy scripts tantalized us with apocalyptic pyrotechnics, they delivered :DKnowing you as I do VT, I'm not surprised you prefer style over substance. :p TNG was telling the story of what the Enterprise saw, not the big battle that we saw the aftermath of.

vulcantouch
02-15-2006, 01:00 AM
-i guess, for trek, spotlighting spiner's chris-elliott-smirk-homage mustache-twirling as lore does count as "different" :cross-eye

"so the producers' plan wasn't to make the Borg stupider, but the audience"
-if they had borgqueen & janeway wrestle in green "nano-jello" you Know you'd watch :lipsrseal

"Tycho pointed out recently that the first ep we meet the Borg in TNG, they're only 2 years away at solid warp"
-well i ain't sure what "solid warp" means, but i do know i ain't responsible for tych's louzee math ;) kesworld's 75000 light years away, at which point janekat sez home's 75 years away at max warp. ergo 1000LY/year, ergo 7000LY would take ~7 years non-transwarp :glasses:

"not surprised you prefer style over substance"
-a false dichotomy; True style is Equivalent to substance. meanwhile, false substance (i.e. tryin to distract us w/riker-shelby bickersons amidst armageddon) is equivalent to. . . a snoozefest :tired:

"TNG was telling the story of what the Enterprise saw, not the big battle that we saw the aftermath of"
-how conVEEENient :cheeky:
vt

JediTricks
02-15-2006, 04:45 PM
Ugh, Janeway's an old biddy, nobody wants to see that nearly-nude.


well i ain't sure what "solid warp" means, but i do know i ain't responsible for tych's louzee math ;) kesworld's 75000 light years away, at which point janekat sez home's 75 years away at max warp. ergo 1000LY/year, ergo 7000LY would take ~7 years non-transwarp :glasses:It means at warp 9, Q doesn't push the Enterprise into the Delta quadrant, the Borg are already close to the Federation's doorstep in Q-Who, they just hadn't taken notice of the Fed yet. Also, the math isn't that simple on that, there's a complex equation regarding an exponential curve of increased warp speeds vs distance.


-a false dichotomy; True style is Equivalent to substance. meanwhile, false substance (i.e. tryin to distract us w/riker-shelby bickersons amidst armageddon) is equivalent to. . . a snoozefestHA! Style = substance, only you could be so bold to make that artsy-fartsy claim. The Enterprise had exhausted its energy with the shot from the nav deflector array, Locutus knew that Riker would try this and adjusted the Borg strategy to compensate, the Enterprise was then stuck for a while till they got engines back online. It had nothing to do with pointless Shelby.

Tycho
02-15-2006, 05:32 PM
There were two points to Shelby that I was watching very closely.

Imagine if TNG had been on Spice instead of Spike (now). Riker could have taken her on in a game of strip-poker!

Tycho
02-18-2006, 05:08 AM
I just watched Voyager's "Jetrel" which was a kind of "Oppenheimer" story about Dr. Jetrel, the scientist responsible for inventing the weapon that killed Neelix's family. Ordinarily Neelix annoyed me in many episodes, but this was one of his best. They did a really good job. The voice of the actor who played Jetrel is familiar too. I think he played the Romulan Defector Admiral Jarok in TNG.

The episode also showed Janeway's humanity in that she cared enough for helping people, even strangers, that she turned her ship around and they went the wrong way (not towards earth) to see if they could help Neelix's people. They should have made that a little more profound as it would help explain why for nearly 3 years the crew encountered Kaizon and Vidiians (because they had to cross through their space twice). It only would have taken a few more lines added to one or more episodes.

vulcantouch
02-22-2006, 12:51 AM
-james sloyan, aka future-adult alexander aka odo's dr. mora aka The Voice Of Lexus :cool:

jt: "nobody wants to see that"
-"suit yerself- more for me"- nagus re sisko's beetlesnuff refusal, "rules of acquisition" :D tightly-wound, strong-jawed, patrician kate vs. elegant dax-paramour susanna thompson (not alice krige)? i'd buy That for a dollar :kiss:

"HA! Style = substance"
-an oversimplification of my position- perhaps-illuminating example i've prev-cited: reagan's "style" was hokey and disingenuous, revealing the weakness of his substance.

"complex equation regarding an exponential curve"
-according to okudas' text-commentary on STTMP i recently viewed, for the most part warp is the cube of the factor; wf2 = 8c, wf3 = 27c etc. however since wf10 is infinite veloc (Voy's "threshold" ) it can't be 1000c, so somewhere between wf9 (729c) and wf10 the curve climbs steeper still. even so, 7x of starfleet's max warp surely resides in the transwarp realm-
vt