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View Full Version : A final jab in the Prequel's ribs



stillakid
03-26-2006, 02:00 PM
I just wanted to get this Prequel "plot" straight one last time...


lil' Ani grows up to have amazing potential to be a great Jedi.

He falls in love.

He has premonitions that his woman will die.

To stop that from happening, he sells his soul to the Devil
... the reward: the secret to stopping people from dying (Palps tells him that he knows how to do it)
...the cost: he has to kill Jedi and anything else that moves (to build up "evil" points or something)


Okay, so we have Palps telling Ani that if he kills Mace Windu, that Palps will share the secret of saving lives. IMMEDIATELY after Ani kills Mace, Palps renigs on the promise saying instead that together they'll "figure it out." Ani doesn't wince at all at this bait 'n switch but instead "pledges" himself to the bad guy. Ani presumably believes the concept that killing Jedi will give him credit on the evil-Karma ride which will then enable him to use this "secret" which Palps now says he doesn't have. (Lost yet? I was...wait, there's more!)

So not to forget the big picture, Ani has done all of this in order to save Padme's life. However, one of the first things he does is choke her nearly to death. Remember, he has gone to the Jedi Temple and slaughtered kids and then to this volcano planet (where no one sweats) to kill more aliens in order to gain evil-points which will let him save Padme's life...yet he is the one who kills her. Huh?

So his reasoning had nothing to do with political gain or even that he really thought that the Jedi were evil...he KNEW that Palps was the bad guy...and the only reason he even considered going "bad" was to get the secret to saving lives so he could save Padme, the chick who he himself killed. This is relevant (and stupid) because he is standing there, WITH Palps, at the end of the movie ready to launch into another trilogy.

What the Fk?


The toys are cool, though. :)

Turbowars
03-26-2006, 10:59 PM
The toys are cool, though. :)Too bad the acting and story wasn't. Still a cool flick.:thumbsup:

JimJamBonds
03-26-2006, 11:30 PM
So if this is your parting shot at the PT Stilla how long to your first shot on the new site? :D

figrin bran
03-27-2006, 01:59 AM
stilla, just imagine how many more toys you would've bought had the plot been better conceived :p

2-1B
03-27-2006, 02:20 AM
I don't believe you are sincere about this being "final" in any way. :p

BTW, it's "renegs" :)


and the only reason he even considered going "bad" was to get the secret to saving lives so he could save Padme, the chick who he himself killed. This is relevant (and stupid) because he is standing there, WITH Palps, at the end of the movie ready to launch into another trilogy.

That's the risk of Running with the Devil, it's like Obi told him about being the very thing you are trying to avoid.
As for the end, it's too late. Already been hoodwinked and can't go back (or so one would think).
Advantage: Charlotte.

stillakid
03-27-2006, 07:54 AM
That's the risk of Running with the Devil, it's like Obi told him about being the very thing you are trying to avoid.
As for the end, it's too late. Already been hoodwinked and can't go back (or so one would think).
Advantage: Charlotte.

So he is just staying with the bad guy because he has no other home to go to? Ooookay. A big ol' "Maybe" if this were just the Prequels. But the OT Vader insists that Vader is with the bad guys because the Dark Side has a hold over him. I equate that to being power hungry in that context. That doesn't jive with him staying with Palps merely because he has killed off his only other avenue for some :love: 'in.

2-1B
03-27-2006, 12:21 PM
It does have a hold over him and he does want power. He was already planning on killing his bad guy buddy before he got burned. lol

And he renews that interest 20 years later when the opportunity arises and Mark Hamill nearly ruins a classic movie scene with his "acting." lol lol lol

Anyway this is pointless, nothing the SSG community hasn't discussed a thousand times before, you're just starting prequel threads because you like to beat on us about how bad they are but I understand you want to go on a Farewell Tour before they close these doors. :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

Slicker
03-27-2006, 12:47 PM
I'm with you stilla. AOTC sucked more than a Kirby.



And since we're on that subject, how about that El Chuxter's mom...

stillakid
03-27-2006, 02:22 PM
It does have a hold over him and he does want power. He was already planning on killing his bad guy buddy before he got burned. lol
Yes, but the question is why does Ani STAY with Palps after:

1) Palps renEgs on his promise of having the secret to saving lives,
2) Ani kills Padme himself anyway, thus negating the reason for needing the secret in the first place (which Palps clearly doesn't have)

?

It makes ZERO sense then that Ani/Vader would continue on with that organization at all, much less for another three movies worth.

JimJamBonds
03-27-2006, 02:51 PM
I think its apparent that Ani wants more power, sure his honey is a dead but what will he do? Sure he can set up his own organization with himself as the head dude but what Ani really wants is more of that Jedi voodo power.

pegger
03-27-2006, 04:11 PM
Yes, but the question is why does Ani STAY with Palps after:

1) Palps renEgs on his promise of having the secret to saving lives,
2) Ani kills Padme himself anyway, thus negating the reason for needing the secret in the first place (which Palps clearly doesn't have)

?

It makes ZERO sense then that Ani/Vader would continue on with that organization at all, much less for another three movies worth.

But what's he gonna do? He's killed of all the Jedi, killed little kids, killed his friends, killed his wife.... If he turns on Palps (who is all he's got left), he would be an outcast, loner, baby killer that everyone is the universe will be after, or...he could be the #2 guy in charge of the galaxy...

I see it more as a "slippery slope." He kills Mace because he thinks he needs to to save Padme. At that point he says "what have I done..." He knows at that point he can't turn back. I mean, he just killed leader of the Jedi. He knows the Jedi are holding back on him, they don't trust him (and now he's proved it)..So he can side with Palps, who will make him #2, and teach him all he knows (which is a lot, when you consider he arranged the whole war, took on 4 Masters and beat 3 of them), or go back to the Jedi - who he thinks would destroy him for what he just did...

So Palps tells him he doesn't really know how to save Padme - but at this point, it's too late for Anakin. He's already made his path. May as well go all the way now.

That's why in the OT - when he says the dark side is to strong, he must obey his master, it's because he's given up on himslef. He sees himself as unsaveable, an evil man that destroyed everything he held dear for the chance at power for a lie. What lower form of life is there...

Now having said all of that - the Prequels could have been done better. The story is still choppy, and not very sensical at the end - but I can kind of understand why he hangs around for the next 20 years. What else is a guy in a black suit gonna do? Date?

2-1B
03-27-2006, 06:34 PM
Good post pegger, and might I add that the smile on Palps' face says it all when he tells Vader that Ani killed Padme. Anakin got so messed up with this Sith stuff that he went off the deep end and killed Padme himself. Palps just got off the hook with that one, he doesn't have to help Ani work any magic to save her from death because it wasn't an external force that killed her but Anakin himself. Nice little tragedy there. :)

Had Ani just listened to Yoda's advice, Padme would have lived. His visions of her death were due to his lure to the Dark Side. If he would have just stayed the course like Yoda said, he wouldn't have been turned to the Dark Side in the first place and he wouldn't have killed Padme, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

But since this is a prequel we're talking about, I am just giving it too much credit and trying to excuse it's faults because I have some weird need to "like" it or something goofy like that. lol

I will take a final jab at the prequels myself though and lament that 2-1B was not in them enough. :cry: :cry: :cry:

stillakid
03-27-2006, 08:55 PM
That's why in the OT - when he says the dark side is to strong, he must obey his master, it's because he's given up on himslef. He sees himself as unsaveable, an evil man that destroyed everything he held dear for the chance at power for a lie. What lower form of life is there...



Ah, I'm glad you brought that up. It was the exact scene in my mind as I was reading your response.

Yes, he says he must obey his Master. But what he really says is that "You don't know the power of the Dark Side, I must obey my Master." The implication is far different than just a guy with no place left to go.

The Vader of the Prequels is a pathetic whiner who flip flops incessantly from one selfish point of view to the next. He is hardly tragic nor sympathetic...just pathetic and annoying.

The Vader of the OT is a man trapped by his own ambition, not by juvenile selfishness, but by political and "religious" motivation. This Vader had purpose and saw the Dark Side as a quick and easy avenue to achieve it, which he did. Along the way, however, he lost himself and it took a reuniting with his lost son to show him the light. His implied downfall is reprehensible, yet understandable as any one of us could fall prey to the seduction of the quick and easy path. His redemption is welcomed because his plight is our own.

We don't look forward to Prequel Vader living, much less being redeemed because the reasons for his own demise are ridiculous and border on true developmental deficiency.

Had Palps not reneged on his promise, then we might understand Ani's choice to remain with the bad guy. And had Padme died later on, after having had the chance to be sad, not merely distraught, over Anakin's fall, then we might be able to see a link to the OT. But right now, the only thing that relates the Prequel Vader to the OT Vader is a black suit. The motivation and cause that resides inside is what matters most and is what is truly wrong.

pegger
03-27-2006, 10:41 PM
I still don't know if I agree with you.

"You don't know the power of the Dark Side..."

What is the Dark Side? It is when you put your needs above others. By believing in "its" power it made me (Vader) destroy everything and everyone I know, including my wife. Because I am most important...,

I still see the line as valid to my arguement. I put myslef above everyhting else (1st part), I must obey my master (because I have nothing else).

What makes Anakin turn into Vader is the fear of HIS loss. At the end, I do not see him as a pathetic whiner, but a man who, driven by the fear of losing all HE holds dear, ends up losing everything. A man truly decieved into believing that he can keep what he has through power... A bit like the emperor - and Leia's comment - the more you tighten your grip, the more starsystems slip through your fingers - is more applicable to Vader. It's the same for Anakin - he tried to hold on so tightly to that which he cherished, he lost everything, because the only way you can keep what you truly love is to let it go, as per Yoda's advice.

What ends up happening with with the OT is that we no longer see a man driven by ambition - as that is not the underlying factor. We see a man driven by HIS fears. Once he realizes that the only way to save his loved ones is to sacrifice himself, he becomes redeemed. He no longer thinks of himself - but of someone else. If anything - it gives his sacrifice a greater meaning, because he doesn't do it to save his soul. He does it to save Luke - and ends up saving his soul in the process - an unintended, but happy ending.

Now...you made me argue FOR the prequels. As I see it, you owe me a beer.

stillakid
03-28-2006, 12:16 AM
Now...you made me argue FOR the prequels. As I see it, you owe me a beer.

You'll get a fruit smoothie, and like it! :thumbsup:


Let me ruminate upon your twisted logic and get back to you. Thanks. :)

JediTricks
03-28-2006, 01:02 AM
BTW, it's "renegs" :)No, it's actually "reneges", from "renege".


I have to admit, Caesar's right in that this thread's opening salvo does feel like well-trodden material on these forums, that was my feeling before anybody else had responded, we've danced this dance already.


That's the risk of Running with the Devil, it's like Obi told him about being the very thing you are trying to avoid.
As for the end, it's too late. Already been hoodwinked and can't go back (or so one would think). [/quote]Can't go back? I never buy that (I've heard it before), after Palps pulls the rug out from under him in the office, he could simply kill Palps and say Palps killed Mace, or have Palps arrested and pretend nothing happened since Palps likely wouldn't nark the kid out since the kid could still be beneficial, plus admitting what happened means admitting he's the evil Sith Lord who they will surely put to death. After the battle with Obi-Wan when he's wearing the suit, he could do whatever the hell he wanted, or NOTHING even, just go hang out on some backwoods planet and Force-choke Ewoks all day long, only the "zombie" argument says he MUST stay with Palps.


I think its apparent that Ani wants more powerExcept for that out-of-nowhere, no-believability-behind-it line to Padme about ruling the galaxy together (lifted from ESB comment to Luke), how is it "apparent"? He seems to show no problem being Palps' lackey.


If he turns on Palps (who is all he's got left), he would be an outcast, loner, baby killer that everyone is the universe will be afterAccording to JimJam, he's lusting for power, he could simply use his Force abilities to coerce the galaxy into making him the new Emperor.


or...he could be the #2 guy in charge of the galaxy.That honor would be Grandma Tarkin, who holds Vader's leash.


The Vader of the Prequels is a pathetic whiner who flip flops incessantly from one selfish point of view to the next. He is hardly tragic nor sympathetic...just pathetic and annoying.This is true, I started a thread a while back about "What does Vader stand for?" about ROTS, and I never found a satisfactory answer, the closest thing was "he's a zombie".



"You don't know the power of the Dark Side..."

What is the Dark Side? It is when you put your needs above others. By believing in "its" power it made me (Vader) destroy everything and everyone I know, including my wife. Because I am most important...,That's not all the Dark Side is, it's also a seductive means to abusing power, a shortcut to using the Force which manifests only selfish, evil ways.


I still see the line as valid to my arguement. I put myslef above everyhting else (1st part), I must obey my master (because I have nothing else).That seems like a flawed argument to me, "I'm #1 yet I follow someone else and apply myself to their needs", isn't that a tad contradictory?

I've heard your argument about selfishness from others, it's not exactly wrong, but in the short span we're given to know these characters, I don't see how it's DIFFERENT ENOUGH from Luke's interest in saving his friends. Why is it that Luke wanting to save his friends is noble while Anakin's is selfish? We don't get to really see enough of either character to definitively determine where that comes from, so the argument is that Luke is good because his emphasis is on the word "friends" while Anakin is bad because his emphasis is "my"? That's a thin line IMO which the prequels straddle with far authority than their tales have earned.

pegger
03-28-2006, 08:30 AM
That seems like a flawed argument to me, "I'm #1 yet I follow someone else and apply myself to their needs", isn't that a tad contradictory?


Not at all - He doesn't say he is # 1. Don't forget, by the time he makes this comment he thinks of himself as unredeemable. He is not claiming he is # 1, what he is saying that because of the dark side he destroyed everything he wanted to keep - and did it gladly, becuase it had such a hold over him. The strongest Jedi ever (which is what he thought of himself) was destroyed easily by the dark side. This realization (which he has had to live with for 20 years) has destroyed him, which is why he must obey his master.

Now, having said that, Lucas would have made the whole thing make a lot more sense by not having Palps renege on his promise to save Padme. What SHOULD have happened was after Ani helps kill Mace, Palps should have said - in order for you to have the power to save Padme, you must give yourself fully to the Dark Side. The way to do this it first, go kill all the Jedi. Then kill the seperatist leaders... Then it would have made more sense.

Personally, I think the story told in the prequels was weak and flawed, not nearly as engaging as the OT was. But we got what we got....

I'll get into what I think the flaws are later.

As for the fruit smoothie - I'm a Canadian not a Californian. Smoothies would kill me. Hippie.

stillakid
03-28-2006, 08:58 AM
Now, having said that, Lucas would have made the whole thing make a lot more sense by not having Palps renege on his promise to save Padme. What SHOULD have happened was after Ani helps kill Mace, Palps should have said - in order for you to have the power to save Padme, you must give yourself fully to the Dark Side. The way to do this it first, go kill all the Jedi. Then kill the seperatist leaders... Then it would have made more sense.
But that's exactly what Palps did. It wasn't in one single line of dialogue, but Palps clearly tells Anakin that he must grow stronger with the Dark Side by killing all of those people in order to be powerful enough to discover the secret to saving lives. What you ask for is already in the story...and maybe it works on it's own as a concept and maybe not. But that's not the problem.

The problem is that Palps told Anakin upfront that he HAS the secret which is precisely why Anakin kills Mace...to get the secret. Then immediately after Anakin makes that choice, Palps changes the story and says that he doesnt' really know and that the two of them will have to figure it out together. Now one might choose to argue that Palps was just lying or using his own powers of deception here...maybe, but it's irrelevant to Anakin's reaction. Up to this point in the story, we see Anakin ignite his own lightsaber ready to kill Palps himself as well as telling on him to Mace. Ani KNOWS that Palps is the bad guy and (despite that nonsense about "from my point of view the Jedi are evil" ...what the F was that all about?) even knows that when he kills Mace ("What have I done?" he wails). This entire time, Anakin is fully aware of which side is right and which is wrong, yet he continues to choose Palps even after Palps reneges on the one thing that got Anakin interested in being bad in the first place.

It makes ZERO sense no matter how many different ways you look at it.



What should have happened is a different story altogether. Lucas had the hint of that in AOTC when Anakin had a problem with the Senate bickering back and forth. Ahhh, political motivation would have been a good trigger to send him down the "quick and easy" path. Instead, it was more like an episode of Three's Company, where Anakin thinks that Obi and Padme have been naughty together...now watch the hijinx ensue.

pegger
03-28-2006, 09:03 AM
Instead, it was more like an episode of Three's Company, where Anakin thinks that Obi and Padme have been naughty together...now watch the hijinx ensue.

HA! lol

I'm confused now....are we arguing the same thing?

stillakid
03-28-2006, 09:30 AM
HA! lol

I'm confused now....are we arguing the same thing?

Maybe, except that it reads as if you are excusing it and justifying it while I don't think it works on any level. The end game is that the Vader we all know and love could not possibly in any universe have been an incarnation of Jake-akin or Hayd-akin. Not even a little bit. The OT Vader would more likely have been someone like, oh, say, ...well I can't think of a good despot right off the top of my head...

But try this scenario on for size. A while ago, I offered up a suggestion for the "post-quel" in which Luke heads up the effort to root out the remnants of the Empire and rebuild the Republic. In doing so, he begins taking, say we say "shortcuts" along the way. What's a little torture here and there between friends? Just some very "non Jedi like" behavior from him begins to take place. The ends justify the means, right? He is trying to rebuild the Republic, a worthy cause in it's own right. So what if a rule here or there is bent or broken. In the end, it will all be worth it.

Well, you should be able to see where that's going. Yoda did say that once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. And Luke did, if for one dark moment, when Vader goaded him out of hiding and Luke used his anger to take the Dark Lord down. Luke felt then the power that could be utilized and how it could be used for the side of good. The ends justify the means.

Flash back to what the Prequels should have been. A young idealistic Anakin sees the Republic failing. Senators bicker, nothing gets done, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is a good stage to set an allegory for our own society. Anakin could have been brought into the fold of the Jedi by Obi Wan (as the OT tells us happened) and then been slowly seduced by a young Senator named Palpatine who had plans of his own. Palpatine uses twisted logic to convince Anakin that the ends do indeed justify the means, so that by the end of our hypothetical Episode III, Anakin's logic is so twisted around like a pretzel that he can't even see straight. But to him, killing is justified because it is the avenue to restoring order to a universe of injustice. It takes his own son to lay down as a martyr years later to open his eyes. The mask went on as a symbol of shame...a man hiding behind his own misdeeds. And it comes off when he can be proud once again of being on the side of right.

Ironicallly, the way it should have been done is nothing but Expanded Universe, while the nonsensical mish mash of CG imagery is canon. Talk about injustice.

2-1B
03-28-2006, 11:45 AM
No, it's actually "reneges", from "renege".

Correct, I missed 1 of the 3 "e"s :D



Can't go back? I never buy that (I've heard it before), after Palps pulls the rug out from under him in the office, he could simply kill Palps and say Palps killed Mace, or have Palps arrested and pretend nothing happened since Palps likely wouldn't nark the kid out since the kid could still be beneficial, plus admitting what happened means admitting he's the evil Sith Lord who they will surely put to death.

But the question was already asked of himself, "what have I done?" and it's not like he can just forget something like that.


I have to admit, Caesar's right in that this thread's opening salvo does feel like well-trodden material on these forums, that was my feeling before anybody else had responded, we've danced this dance already.

Pretty much, I'm still trying to figure out why I bother talking about movies I like with people who don't like the same movies....for years now I've been trying to figure that out because Star Wars is the only series that fits that mold. lol lol lol When a POS like War of the Worlds came out, I spent maybe 2 days on it and moved on. But with Star Wars, we're always discussin' lol

stillakid
03-28-2006, 12:02 PM
But the question was already asked of himself, "what have I done?" and it's not like he can just forget something like that.
Nobody suggests that he merely shrug it off as if nothing happened. But his logic train tells us that he knew good from evil and was only siding with evil to get that "thing." (Many stories revolve around a hero struggling to attain a "thing" that is relevant to that particular tale...in this one, it is the "pill" of immortality or however you'd like to characterize it.)

Once that "thing" was gone (Palps says outright that he doesn't have it), Anakin had every reason to go Tarantino on his robed a** for misleading him. But Nooooooo. Instead the boy-wonder drops to his knees in some kind of zombie-like trance and "pledges" himself to the bad guy. What!?!!! :cross-eye

His goal of saving Padme from death is still there, but Palps doesn't have that magic pill anymore. Therefore Anakin's motivation for remaining with the bad guy dissolves immediately. Everything that follows is nonsensical.




Pretty much, I'm still trying to figure out why I bother talking about movies I like with people who don't like the same movies....for years now I've been trying to figure that out because Star Wars is the only series that fits that mold. lol lol lol When a POS like War of the Worlds came out, I spent maybe 2 days on it and moved on. But with Star Wars, we're always discussin' lol
Because while you find elements to enjoy, as all of us do, you know in your heart that the films are substandard relative to what they should have been? Defending them helps to justify enjoying the rest? No? Yes? Maybe? Something else?

seanmcfripp
03-28-2006, 04:15 PM
...while you find elements to enjoy, as all of us do, you know in your heart that the films are substandard relative to what they should have been? Defending them helps to justify enjoying the rest? No? Yes? Maybe? Something else?

Mostly "yes", a little "no", some "maybe", and a sizable helping of "something else."

That's the fun of talking about this stuff, because the meter shifts a bit over time as the mind's digestive system works this stuff out. There's some stuff that hangs out in the colon for years before coming out, and when it does, it's kinda messy and incoherent. I like to bounce ideas off everyone here to help me formulate a better, well supported opinion of the films. In other words, my mind has a bowel movement, and talking about it here helps me sculpt it into an ash tray. I want it to be more than just an ash tray though, I want a statue of David. I want to have the most articulate, insightful, mind-blowingly authoritative opinion of these movies that I can possibly have. I know I'll never actually get to that level, but trying to get there is half the fun.

I'm sure some of you have no problem comparing my ideas and opinions to a bowel movement. :pleased:

As for getting in a few last digs? I'm still camping out over here with the hatuhs. The OT and PT just can't, don't, and/or won't jive. PT Anakin/Vader doesn't carry a story, let alone three 2 hour films.

JediTricks
03-28-2006, 05:18 PM
Not at all - He doesn't say he is # 1.You argued that in Vader's mind, he thinks "I put myself above everything else", that means he sees himself as #1 in importance over the needs of EVERYTHING else, and Palps is part of "everything else" since he is not Vader.


Don't forget, by the time he makes this comment he thinks of himself as unredeemable. He is not claiming he is # 1, what he is saying that because of the dark side he destroyed everything he wanted to keep - and did it gladly, becuase it had such a hold over him. The strongest Jedi ever (which is what he thought of himself) was destroyed easily by the dark side. This realization (which he has had to live with for 20 years) has destroyed him, which is why he must obey his master.A) a lot of that seems like speculation on your part - for example, "did it gladly because it had such a hold over him"?
B) I still don't see how that realization means he has to obey his master, the dots aren't connected between the 2 concepts.
C) Plus, where do the dots come in connecting those to the concept that he puts himself above everything else?



Now, having said that, Lucas would have made the whole thing make a lot more sense by not having Palps renege on his promise to save Padme. What SHOULD have happened was after Ani helps kill Mace, Palps should have said - in order for you to have the power to save Padme, you must give yourself fully to the Dark Side. The way to do this it first, go kill all the Jedi. Then kill the seperatist leaders... Then it would have made more sense.In the DVD's deleted scenes, it is mentioned that Lucas tried to set up the path of Palps sewing the seeds of distrust in Anakin for Padme, but it fell flat and he cut it.

I think Palps should have kept his word to Anakin showing how the powers of the Dark Side can be used to keep people alive, at least giving him the rudamentary knowledge, then Anakin doesn't realize that once he fully embraces the Dark Side, he won't want to keep her alive after a while - she won't fit his idea of his perfect selfish universe, so he will shun or even try to kill her (I always felt she should have survived Ep 3 with some terminal disease, poisoned by the Nexu perhaps, that way what Leia said in ROTJ could have fit better than the "baby with her eyes open" crap we got).



But the question was already asked of himself, "what have I done?" and it's not like he can just forget something like that.I have a problem with this though, up until that point, Anakin had been straddling the fence but still showing that he knew right from wrong, he threatened Palps when learning that he was a Sith and turned him over to Mace. When he finally goes back to save Palps, he does so arguing that Palps should be arrested and tried, even here he is still arguing for "good", even arguing to Mace the notion of the noble Jedi action that should be taken there while Mace is ready to kill an apparently-powerless enemy, Anakin is "thinking" good even when he knows his motivation is less-than-altruistic, he still seems to be believing that he is in the right and the Jedi are in the right and Palps is evil but should live. So when Mace moves against Palps for the final killing blow, Anakin doesn't kill Mace, he simply cuts off the arm holding the lightsaber - Anakin's action may have been extreme, but from the notion of noble Jedi actions, it's not THAT far afield, so can Anakin totally blame himself for someone else killing Mace that he had no idea could do that? Keep in mind that Anakin has been living in "the gray zone" for the past 2 years now, he could easily have filed that away as just more "shades of gray", yet instead he accepts more blame than even the movie gives him credit for, and THIS is the big move that turns him to Darth Vader? That doesn't work for me.



That's the fun of talking about this stuff, because the meter shifts a bit over time as the mind's digestive system works this stuff out. There's some stuff that hangs out in the colon for years before coming out, and when it does, it's kinda messy and incoherent. Thanks so much for that slice of literary imagery.:crazed:

2-1B
03-28-2006, 11:09 PM
Because while you find elements to enjoy, as all of us do, you know in your heart that the films are substandard relative to what they should have been? Defending them helps to justify enjoying the rest? No? Yes? Maybe? Something else?

By "films" do you mean the prequels are substandard or the whole pile of 6 movies ? :confused:

'Cause frankly, as much as I love Star Wars I don't think of the OT as this work of near-perfection like you seem to, so I don't hold the same "standard"* as you do in the first place. That being said, I think in many ways the prequels are awesome and if it wasn't for TPM being the weakest of the bunch, I would love the PT more than the OT. As it stands now though, I'd say overall I like the 2 trilogies equally. On some days I would prefer each over the other so in the end I love them overall.

Sure these are my favorite movies but not the best in my opinion. I enjoy other series of entertainment as well as standalone movies that I believe are much better than Star Wars even though Star Wars is magical to me and a part of my life. I grew up on it.

No, I'm not going to say that we have idealized visions of the movies from our childhood and nothing can compare, so put away your Quote Button because I'm not going to say that. :D
For me though, I figured out that all of this internet chatting on the series is based on the actual journey of having the films re-released into the public with the 1997 SEs and then the 8 years afterward of waiting for a prequel trilogy to be completed. It was fun and exciting, it was my hobby. In between each film we had 3 years of speculation, spoilers, and news to debate and discuss with each other.

Now we don't. :( It's almost a year since the last movie came out and I just don't feel like talking about the movies anymore because there's nothing new to come as far as what plot points might be touched on or whatever. It's all done.

That's why I'm moving on from it all - I know what I like and don't like about the PT and the OT so why bother discussing it so much anymore? It's not worth it. The journey is over, the films are all in the can and there's nothing new to come. Unless of course the series is tweaked again (for better or worse) for the next round of technology, then I'll be back in the discussion mode. lol

*I predict this asterisk marked comment is where stillakid will ask to document what's "wrong" with the OT then refute it by saying he hasn't seen proof otherwise (DUH, that's 'cause you won't agree :D ) so therefore it can't be true. :crazed:

stillakid
03-29-2006, 12:53 AM
*I predict this asterisk marked comment is where stillakid will ask to document what's "wrong" with the OT then refute it by saying he hasn't seen proof otherwise (DUH, that's 'cause you won't agree :D ) so therefore it can't be true. :crazed:


Actually, no. I was going to commend you on the "Quote Button" comment which I found hilariously funny. :D If nothing else here at SSG, I've learned how sincerely funny people can be. I mean that in a good way. People are really really funny!! :)

It might help that I've just come back from a fantastic dinner (and a couple bottles of wine), but I can't concentrate on any movie "issues" at the moment. I'll let the Quote Button comment linger for the night and see how I feel in the morning. :thumbsup:

2-1B
03-29-2006, 01:03 AM
That's what I was saying in my initial post and what JT was seeming to agree with, that we sometimes know what each other is going to say so I thought I should sneak in a few "jabs" of my own in that regard. :crazed:

I'm glad you had a nice dinner stillakid :) but I surely hope you didn't down those bottles of wine all on your own? ;) ;) ;)

For the record, I'd just like to add to my last few posts that in no way am I saying that YOU GUYS (as in, anybody other than me) shouldn't be discussing the movies further or anything, I was just speaking from my own feelings. Have at it, gentlemen. :p

stillakid
03-29-2006, 01:06 AM
That's what I was saying in my initial post and what JT was seeming to agree with, that we sometimes know what each other is going to say so I thought I should sneak in a few "jabs" of my own in that regard. :crazed:

I'm glad you had a nice dinner stillakid :) but I surely hope you didn't down those bottles of wine all on your own? ;) ;) ;)

For the record, I'd just like to add to my last few posts that in no way am I saying that YOU GUYS (as in, anybody other than me) shouldn't be discussing the movies further or anything, I was just speaking from my own feelings. Have at it, gentlemen. :p

No, I didn't have them myself. But that means I had one!!! :yes:

pegger
03-29-2006, 08:46 AM
You argued that in Vader's mind, he thinks "I put myself above everything else", that means he sees himself as #1 in importance over the needs of EVERYTHING else, and Palps is part of "everything else" since he is not Vader.

he puts his NEEDS infront of everything else... including the NEEDS of Palps. Why does he join Palps - not to help Palps, but to help himself!

You are making my head hurt. I wish I had wine too.

stillakid
03-29-2006, 08:56 AM
he puts his NEEDS infront of everything else... including the NEEDS of Palps. Why does he join Palps - not to help Palps, but to help himself!
So how does staying with Palps (pledging himself, etc) help Anakin exactly? Palps already reneged on the promise. Palps has nothing to offer anymore and Padme's death is imminent!!!! :eek: Despite the fact that the woman can run a 100 meter dash in 7 seconds, she is due to drop those kids very soon. Ani needs a solution NOW and Palps just made himself useless to Anakin. Padme IS the only reason Ani decided to ignore his knowledge that Palps is a bad guy so the second Palps renegs, he becomes useless.

Why is this so hard to understand? :confused:


You are making my head hurt. I wish I had wine too.

The next morning (ie. now) is always harder. :hurt:

pegger
03-29-2006, 09:21 AM
So how does staying with Palps (pledging himself, etc) help Anakin exactly? Palps already reneged on the promise. Palps has nothing to offer anymore and Padme's death is imminent!!!! :eek: Despite the fact that the woman can run a 100 meter dash in 7 seconds, she is due to drop those kids very soon. Ani needs a solution NOW and Palps just made himself useless to Anakin. Padme IS the only reason Ani decided to ignore his knowledge that Palps is a bad guy so the second Palps renegs, he becomes useless.

Why is this so hard to understand? :confused:

ARRG!! - I :bangingheadagaisntwall:

When does he pledge himself...The moment he helps kill Mace. At that point - he's done. He can't turn back. Even tho Palps is a lair, Ani has already crossed the point of no return by helping to murder one of the Jedi council. His choice now is - TRY to kill Palps - whose got this cool lightening power, while Ani's got nothing - and Padme dies, or work with Palps and maybe find a way to save Padme. Him saying he pledges himself is only semantics.

All the stuff after that takes him further down the road of no return.

2-1B
03-29-2006, 09:26 AM
Charlotte still strings him along though and says that if they work together, blah blah, and if he uses the Dark Side, blah blah, then he will be strong enough....and Anakin later refers to this.

Anakin can't blame the crusty old goat for not delivering on his promise because Anakin himself is the one who blows it buy "killing" Padme.

I'm not being sarcastic in repeating stillakid's question, I'm serious in also wondering

Why is this so hard to understand?:confused:

:)

2-1B
03-29-2006, 09:30 AM
ARRG!! - I :bangingheadagaisntwall:

When does he pledge himself...The moment he helps kill Mace. At that point - he's done. He can't turn back. Even tho Palps is a lair, Ani has already crossed the point of no return by helping to murder one of the Jedi council. His choice now is - TRY to kill Palps - whose got this cool lightening power, while Ani's got nothing - and Padme dies, or work with Palps and maybe find a way to save Padme. Him saying he pledges himself is only semantics.

All the stuff after that takes him further down the road of no return.

another great point.....let us not forget, stillakid, that Anakin DOES plan to get rid of the "useless" Palpatine, with or without life saving powers...before Padme dies, Ani tells her this himself.

So yeah, Evil Eyes Ani is thinking that he and wifey can rule the galaxy (same as he is going to do 20 years later with sonny, even though there's no way these trilogies can connect :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) and NOWHERE in his plans for he and Padme is there any room for Palps.

Really, "how hard is this to understand? :confused:"
lol

JediTricks
03-29-2006, 07:29 PM
he puts his NEEDS infront of everything else... including the NEEDS of Palps. Why does he join Palps - not to help Palps, but to help himself!I'm confused by this comment, that doesn't jive at all with "I must obey my master".


When does he pledge himself...The moment he helps kill Mace. At that point - he's done. He can't turn back. Even tho Palps is a lair, Ani has already crossed the point of no return by helping to murder one of the Jedi council.I still say that's a dubious claim, "he can't turn back" my aunty Fanny, the only person who knows about him cutting off Mace's arm ain't gonna tell if Ani plays his cards right, and even if he does Ani could go do something else, walk away, whatever. Anakin has been mister "shades of gray" for the past movie and a half, yet now it's all black and white to him? As I argued before, *HE* didn't even kill Mace, he just unintentionally facilitated Mace's death, if anything I think Anakin's mindset was thinking he had superior moral standing by disarming Mace.


His choice now is - TRY to kill Palps - whose got this cool lightening power, while Ani's got nothing - and Padme dies, or work with Palps and maybe find a way to save Padme. Him saying he pledges himself is only semantics.Sounds kinda interesting, too bad it wasn't expressed in the movie.

TheDarthVader
03-29-2006, 07:36 PM
Yes, but the question is why does Ani STAY with Palps after:
2) Ani kills Padme himself anyway, thus negating the reason for needing the secret in the first place (which Palps clearly doesn't have)

Actually no. Delivery Bot says, "For reasons we can't explain, she's dying." So, once again, Palpy lies to Anakin when he says, "It seems in your anger you killed her." I know providing this line gives you a good opportunity to pick at it, but I believe it means, as the delivery bot states, "She's lost the will to live."

And I like this line said by Palpy, "Do what must be done...blah blah...only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme."

:P

B.
TDV

pegger
03-29-2006, 09:10 PM
I'm confused by this comment, that doesn't jive at all with "I must obey my master".

Finally - I've confused you!

The problem is your are trying to apply the same train of thought to 2 conversations that have 20 years apart. I must obey my master - that's all hes had for the last 20 years - it's all he knows. (I know ESB provides a problem - damn continutiy)


I still say that's a dubious claim, "he can't turn back" my aunty Fanny, the only person who knows about him cutting off Mace's arm ain't gonna tell if Ani plays his cards right, and even if he does Ani could go do something else, walk away, whatever. Anakin has been mister "shades of gray" for the past movie and a half, yet now it's all black and white to him? As I argued before, *HE* didn't even kill Mace, he just unintentionally facilitated Mace's death, if anything I think Anakin's mindset was thinking he had superior moral standing by disarming Mace.

and that's why you and I are better people that Ani.



Sounds kinda interesting, too bad it wasn't expressed in the movie.

I KNEW I should have wrote the PT!

2-1B
03-29-2006, 09:16 PM
Sounds kinda interesting, too bad it wasn't expressed in the movie.

I got the same impression from the movie. ;)

stillakid
03-29-2006, 10:41 PM
ARRG!! - I :bangingheadagaisntwall:

When does he pledge himself...The moment he helps kill Mace. At that point - he's done. He can't turn back. Even tho Palps is a lair, Ani has already crossed the point of no return by helping to murder one of the Jedi council. His choice now is - TRY to kill Palps - whose got this cool lightening power, while Ani's got nothing - and Padme dies, or work with Palps and maybe find a way to save Padme. Him saying he pledges himself is only semantics.

All the stuff after that takes him further down the road of no return.


Yeah, all the iron clad arguments JT has said, PLUS...

Semantics? Now you choose to be wishy-washy with one thing he says but not another? C'mon. You gotta try harder than that. This isn't a pot-luck where you get to decide which dialogue to take seriously and which not. As plain as day (ergo, why is this so hard to understand), Ani is promised the secret which will save Padme's life. Palps reneges immediately. Ani knows that Palps is a bad guy and has no motivation to "pledge" himself to him. Period. There is no other way to look at it that makes any sense. This "he can't go back" concept makes no sense either. There's nobody else in the room. Take Palps out and be done with it. He can go find Padme and try to save the rest of the Jedi. End of story.

But Lucas painted himself into a corner and had to have a GIANT leap of logic to get to the other side where Anakin would continue down this path toward the black mask.

pegger
03-30-2006, 08:29 AM
Yeah, all the iron clad arguments JT has said, PLUS...

Semantics? Now you choose to be wishy-washy with one thing he says but not another? C'mon. You gotta try harder than that. This isn't a pot-luck where you get to decide which dialogue to take seriously and which not.

Who said I'm not taking it seriously? What I said (or tried to say) was his "pledging" himself to Palps is not when he choose his path. He did that when he helped kill Mace.



As plain as day (ergo, why is this so hard to understand), Ani is promised the secret which will save Padme's life. Palps reneges immediately. Ani knows that Palps is a bad guy and has no motivation to "pledge" himself to him. Period. There is no other way to look at it that makes any sense. This "he can't go back" concept makes no sense either. There's nobody else in the room. Take Palps out and be done with it. He can go find Padme and try to save the rest of the Jedi.
End of story.. You and I will have to agree to disagree on this point. I can see it.


But Lucas painted himself into a corner and had to have a GIANT leap of logic to get to the other side where Anakin would continue down this path toward the black mask. I somewhat disagree - but mostly because I can understand the "can't go back" concept.

Finally - and I have to say that I saved the best arguement for last....

Hey - what's that over there?

(runs for door when Stillakid turns around)....

Kidhuman
03-30-2006, 09:01 AM
Actually, no. I was going to commend you on the "Quote Button" comment which I found hilariously funny. :D If nothing else here at SSG, I've learned how sincerely funny people can be. I mean that in a good way. People are really really funny!! :)


Are we your clowns? Are we here to amuse you? What the f**k makes us so f**kin' funny?

stillakid
03-30-2006, 09:14 AM
Are we your clowns? Are we here to amuse you? What the f**k makes us so f**kin' funny?

asterisks :love:

El Chuxter
03-30-2006, 09:42 AM
Are we your clowns? Are we here to amuse you? What the f**k makes us so f**kin' funny?

No, but Slicker's mom is.

JediTricks
03-30-2006, 11:12 PM
I got the same impression from the movie. ;)Of course you did, it was the movie in your head instead of the one on screen though. :p

2-1B
03-30-2006, 11:48 PM
Of course you did, it was the movie in your head instead of the one on screen though. :p

That's what I've been told over the years. :crazed:

*jabs JT in the ribs one final time and runs off to hide*

2-1B
12-26-2007, 12:55 AM
What's that about a final jab? :confused:

There must've been a hundred more jabs since this thread started.

lol

pegger
12-26-2007, 08:33 AM
What's that about a final jab? :confused:

There must've been a hundred more jabs since this thread started.

lol


Oh, dear God. Why did you resurrect this thread?

Beast
12-26-2007, 10:49 AM
Oh, dear God. Why did you resurrect this thread?
The amusement factor of Stillakid's obsession with Star Wars?

stillakid
12-26-2007, 12:39 PM
The amusement factor of Stillakid's obsession with Star Wars?


I think it is to placate Beast's obsession with me. It's nice to be loved. :love:

TheDarthVader
12-26-2007, 11:57 PM
Oh, dear God. Why did you resurrect this thread?

Caesar lured Beast to post on this thread so that we could all tell Beast again: change your avatar! :D

Beast
12-27-2007, 12:01 AM
Caesar lured Beast to post on this thread so that we could all tell Beast again: change your avatar! :D
Never!!

Ok, maybe. I'll have to figure out what to change into for the New Year.

2-1B
12-27-2007, 12:03 AM
No way Dude, I love the X3 'tar. :grin:

The movie may have been weak but I like the retro feel. :)

El Chuxter
12-27-2007, 12:38 AM
Maybe a classic Kirby Beast from the cover of the original X-Men #1? He wouldn't be true blue, but it'd still rock the hizzy.