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Dominic Guglieme
06-15-2006, 06:37 PM
This is being lifted from an email correspondence.

Basically, what constitutes balance and imbalance?

Is the imbalance the number of Sith relative to Jedi? Or, is it the Sith themselves?

I tend towards the second case on this.


Okay, discuss. :yes:

Rocketboy
06-16-2006, 12:46 AM
Seems to be that the Sith throw the Force out of balance and wiping them out put it back in balance.

pbarnard
06-16-2006, 01:43 AM
No one really knows. My suspicion is that the balance hinges on the course of grand galactic events. This is the proverbial moth that flaps its wing and creates a hurricane in the gulf of mexico. The chaos and disorder that the universe itself does impose (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) is checked by those who use those forces for their own gains versus those who use it to benefit others (and ideally a maximum number). When one side of this eternal conflict begins to dominate, a balance or a tipping point is formed.

An example from beyond the movies is the choice of Jacen Solo to embrace his powers (albiet for selfish reasons to save his mother) in the novel Balance Point . The Yuuzhan Vong are relentless driving into the Core Worlds. The Jedi are being hunted, but seemingly inconsequential events, Jacen resuming his role as a Jedi, the subsequent injury to Warmaster Tsvong Lah, Leia's recovery all bring the galaxy from a tipping point that was driving towards darkness back to light.

JediTricks
06-16-2006, 04:07 AM
The Force is created by every living thing, not everything is totally "good" in the universe, so for balance to mean that there are no Sith says to me that the Force is inherently "good", and I don't like that, I think it's cheap. I also think it makes little sense in regards to the Sith, the Force being a good entity shouldn't allow the Sith to use it for evil purposes; plus, the Sith have to know that killing is evil, revenge is wrong, etc., so by that thought they should realize that bending the Force to their evil will must come back to tear them a new one when the Force decides to reset.

Some have suggested that the balance is in destroying nearly ALL the users of the Force, that there were too many users tapping into it and the Force I guess got tired of it. While this has some interesting avenues of thought, I don't think it's true to the Star Wars universe and how it portrays the Jedi (even via the Prequels), they're not shown hoarding its use for themselves the way Gollum clutches the One Ring. However, there is 1 lone line in the movies which may suggest this is the case, when in Ep 2 Yoda and Mace discuss their powers dwindling, perhaps this is the Force cutting them off - I don't really buy it myself, but I'm up for an argument in its favor.

The idea of balance is a funny thing here, Lucas points a lot of his Jedi characters at Asian motifs, the samurai, the warrior monk, but the idea of balance in some Asian cultures says that balance is harmony, yin and yang, an equal balance of good and evil. Maybe that is the gray area within Luke Skywalker. Maybe there's even another Dark Jedi still (my theory is it's Leia, her anger over Vader and overwhelming wish to do good for the people become conduits into using the Dark Side). Personally, I don't buy this either, I don't buy the idea of the Force being in harmony with its good and evil, I think the Force doesn't have a consciousness and a true will, that it is what it is and cares not how it is used, this is why the Sith are so successful at using the Dark Side, it's not really the Dark Side of the Force, it's the Dark Side of themselves and their powers.

Of course, if the Prequels hadn't interjected this whole "balance of the Force" thing in the first place... :p

JediTricks
06-19-2006, 04:11 PM
Here's a different take, the Sith are kept alive for longer periods via unnatural means by utilizing their Dark Side powers. Their extended lives are an affront to the Force, perhaps even leeching off the Force to prolong their lives, the ultimate selfish act, and any Sith that stays alive like this could be throwing life out of balance, the more they touch after they're supposed to have died naturally, the worse it gets, so each person affected by Palpatine's reign of terror across the galaxy further throws the Force out of balance. Perhaps even this is why Darth Bane limited the Sith to just 2, any more might have created much larger imbalances, drawing too much of the Force's "attention" to the situation and making the Force balance itself. In this way, killing off the Sith order, even if it's just 1 guy, restores balance to the Force while still allowing for the notion of "good" and "evil" to play itself out however it wants. In this theory, one can be a Dark Jedi without putting the Force out of balance, it's just the Sith knowledge of manipulation of life which unbalances the Force.

JimJamBonds
06-19-2006, 04:16 PM
I don't think anybody has made this point yet so here I go: what is all this mishmash about bringing balence to the force in E 1 when the force (apparently) hasn't been thrown out of whack! The Jedi have no clue the Sith are still around, yes Qui Gon tells the council that the person he fought was a Sith the council doens't take it to be fact (at least right away). Now in AOTC Yoda comments about the Jedi being foolish (I can't quite remember what he says) for many years but that was hindsite. I hope that makes sense.

So what gives???

JediTricks
06-19-2006, 04:52 PM
The Force is suggested to be out of balance in Ep 1, Mace responds to Qui-Gon's claims about the Vergence with this line:

You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy??

darthvyn
06-19-2006, 05:50 PM
aright, here goes the abridged edition of my theory - i adhere to the eastern philosophy theory - the force is... it just exists. "people" use it for good or for bad. energy can neither be created nor destroyed, just transferred into a different manifestation, therefore there is a finite amount of energy/matter in the universe.

ten thousand jedi knights patrol a galaxy where they are policemen with special powers. they strive to use their ability to commune with the force to create peace and order.

however, two rougue beings have begun to misappropriate this energy field for their own gain, utilizing the force in a "dark" way to create chaos, mistrust, and carnage all in the attempt to wrest control of the entire galaxy in the fray.

which faction has more concentrated control over this energy field? the ten thousand jedi who are using it for five thousand different reasons (roughly, if you go with a padawan for every knight out there...) or the two jedi using it for one singular purpose, using all their power over this energy field for that one goal?

this is why the powers of the jedi are diminished - they're spread too thin, and the force is being usurped to the will of those who would rule everything or destroy it. the more the jedi are led on wild goose chases (by the sith, conveniently in a position of power to literally send them on their way...) the more power the sith consume, as the jedi spread out their numbers even more. this may seem counterintuitive, as ten thousand are more than two, but we're talking about energy here, not brute strength, not sheer numbers - energy concentrated is more powerful than energy spread out.

Dominic Guglieme
06-19-2006, 07:43 PM
Darth Vyn's theory sounds like it was heavily influenced by "Jedi v/s Sith". I never quite bought the whole "force as a finite battery/pool" idea.


My guess is that the Sith and Dark Side are like a cancer. They taint, and pollute the force. Assuming the Sith are the imbalance does not assume inherent morality to the force. Clearly, if the force were good, Anakin (a manifextation of the Dark Side) would never have been born. Order 66 would not have been even close to as successful as we reasonably assume it was.

The rule of 2 seems to be assumed natural law for Star Wars. Perhaps the 2 is needed to provide a sort of "feedback", allowing for near constant scheming and planning, but not so much so as to be a distraction. (Sith may be prone to fratricide, but if they are out-numbered, they focus on external enemies.) This is not because Darthg EU decreed it, it is simply natuarl law. (My guess at least.)

As for Luke bringing balance....... By he end of Episode 6, he is the only one who can directly use the force, and he is pretty well balanced. And, he is easily more balanced than his father was at the same age.

stillakid
06-19-2006, 08:53 PM
According to the established continuity in ESB, Yoda summarizes the Force as exactly a giant "pool" of energy, neither good nor bad. There is nothing to "not buy." It is a fact.

So, the Force is merely the "energy" which IS the universe. Anyone who has read the Elegant Universe by Brian Greene will have a larger understanding of the science behind the theory. All matter is essentially made up of tiny strings of energy with different vibration patterns. One set of vibration patterns produces one type of particle while another produces other particles and so on. In short, EVERYTHING, including consciousness itself is nothing but energy.

Given that, the Universe itself is nothing but a giant pool of energy, so "Force users" are merely able to "sense" or "feel" the energy, like a Medium here on Earth, and can then somehow manipulate or control it. Since objects themselves are nothing but elaborate energy structures, a Force user "reaches out" through the chain of energy between he and the thing in order to move it around. Similar process for seeing events and sensing other Force users.

Every time a Force user "uses" the Force, he creates "ripples" in the giant pond of energy. Some ripples are very strong and some are weak depending upon the action taken. For instance, Luke grabbing his lightsaber from 5 feet away sends a very small ripple out, barely detectable by anyone while blowing apart a planet and a billion souls (which are nothing but energy too) creates a massive tidal wave which is detectable from across the galaxy.

So the Force is neither good nor bad. It is merely a tool which some people/aliens are able to manipulate for better or worse.

As far as balance goes, I like Darthvyn's dilution theory. The Jedi don't seem to use the Force too much individually...only when necessary. But the small number of Sith use it all the time putting a drain on the system. It's a stretch, but it kinda works. The Prequels are flawed in a lot of ways and not explaining this element of the story, being that it is a very large part of the plot motivation, is a major problem.

2-1B
06-20-2006, 01:08 AM
Balance = No Sith

TPM = Anakin comes along around the same time as the Sith become revealed to the Jedi.

ROTJ = Anakin brings balance to the Force by killing the Emperor and dying himself.

No More Sith = Balance

It's that simple. These movies aren't all that deep, guys. :)

Dominic Guglieme
06-20-2006, 03:55 PM
To adress a point SaK made, the operative word in what I posted above was "finite". Though the confusion is understandable. If nothing else, the more force tappers there are, the more prevalent the force should be. Think of it as an ethereal economy, where resource flow and use is as important as what is available. (A million dollars in a mattress does less good than $200 or so being invested.)

In any case, the presence of Sith would pollute this pool of force, making it less usable for Jedi

As for the prequels, overall, I would say they are better than the originals, being more intelligently written. They ad more to the story, and tell a better story in and of themselves (love v/s paranoia), than the originals do. Truthfully, Episodes 4 and 5 have some good points, some bad, and Episode 6 is pretty much abysmal.

stillakid
06-20-2006, 08:10 PM
\
As for the prequels, overall, I would say they are better than the originals, being more intelligently written. They ad more to the story, and tell a better story in and of themselves (love v/s paranoia), than the originals do. Truthfully, Episodes 4 and 5 have some good points, some bad, and Episode 6 is pretty much abysmal.

I love spoof posts. :) But you missed April Fools Day. Maybe save this post for next year when you'll get higher exposure. :D

JediTricks
06-20-2006, 09:04 PM
My guess is that the Sith and Dark Side are like a cancer. They taint, and pollute the force. Assuming the Sith are the imbalance does not assume inherent morality to the force. If the Dark Side is a cancer to the Force, then that says it's not a welcome, useful part of the Force, it's a disease, and as it represents evil then evil is an alien concept to the Force, hence arguing the Force is inherently "good".


Clearly, if the force were good, Anakin (a manifextation of the Dark Side) would never have been born. Order 66 would not have been even close to as successful as we reasonably assume it was. The prequels seem to argue that A) Palpatine was manipulating the Force into getting rid of the Jedi; and B) that Anakin was a necessity to rebalancing the force and that Order 66 was part of getting Anakin close enough to do so. Granted, I don't really buy either, if Anakin didn't get so involved with Padme, I think Mace would have been able to kill Palpatine right there (all he had to do was lean forward 3 inches).


As for Luke bringing balance....... By he end of Episode 6, he is the only one who can directly use the force, and he is pretty well balanced. And, he is easily more balanced than his father was at the same age.Lucas says Anakin is the one who brings balance, not Luke.



Balance = No Sith
TPM = Anakin comes along around the same time as the Sith become revealed to the Jedi.
ROTJ = Anakin brings balance to the Force by killing the Emperor and dying himself.
No More Sith = Balance
It's that simple. These movies aren't all that deep, guys. :)That's your interpretation. Lucas spent years researching these ideas, he had something specific in mind and it had depth to it, he just made it feel simple and natural (well, the OT anyway, the PT is largely seen as neither I think). And while Luke ends the movie on a happy note, Yoda did say the Dark Path would forever dominate his destiny and consume him. If we believe that absence of the Sith is all it takes to balance the Force, then we have to ask "why" that absence makes it so, is it simply because "they're bad" and the Force is "good"? That's what we're doing here, discussing the underlying notion of what this means, and it's not "that simple".



If nothing else, the more force tappers there are, the more prevalent the force should be.But nothing in the movies says they create the Force any more than any other living being, they can control the magic but they do not create the magic, the magic can control them and it can also obey their commands, that says to me that the Force is a constant no matter how many Force-users there are.


Think of it as an ethereal economy, where resource flow and use is as important as what is available. (A million dollars in a mattress does less good than $200 or so being invested.)

In any case, the presence of Sith would pollute this pool of force, making it less usable for JediI don't think of it as an economy though, it's not a thing that you take, it's not a consumable, an economy is finite and is about resources growing and shrinking from being consumed or horded; from what I've gotten from the movies, the Force is an infinite and constant energy source, the Force is like a river and the users like a waterwheel, the water is still there, it's just turning the wheel. I don't buy that the Sith pollute the Force in the traditional idea of the usage, they too are just waterwheels - maybe the turning of those wheels closes a dam downstream, but that's different from pollution.

2-1B
06-21-2006, 01:19 AM
That's your interpretation.

Not really, I just recently watched the ROTS bonus features again and that's basically what Lucas said. ;) Anakin fulfilled the prophecy in ROTJ by killing the Emperor and dying himself. Since the prophecy he wrote into TPM said that "one" would bring 'Balance' to the Force, well if Lucas says that in part 6 Anakin fulfills such prophecy by removing the Sith, then that means No Sith = Balance. lol

JediTricks
06-21-2006, 03:48 PM
I meant the claim that the act was all the meaning required, and the movies aren't that deep, that is just your interpretation. Read my previous post again for the rest of my argument.

stillakid
06-21-2006, 04:12 PM
Not really, I just recently watched the ROTS bonus features again and that's basically what Lucas said. ;) Anakin fulfilled the prophecy in ROTJ by killing the Emperor and dying himself. Since the prophecy he wrote into TPM said that "one" would bring 'Balance' to the Force, well if Lucas says that in part 6 Anakin fulfills such prophecy by removing the Sith, then that means No Sith = Balance. lol


The same way that Ben is the one who found and decided to teach Anakin because that's what was said in the movie? Or is that "interpretation" too?

Dominic Guglieme
06-21-2006, 05:21 PM
The economics analogy is to convey the idea that use ads value, not so much creating.

Anakin likely also was feeling some guilt about killing Tyranus when he stopped Mace. Note the paralell dialogue between the scenes.

And, assuming the Sith are an imbalance does not assign innate morality to the force, any more than heavier than air flight assigns morality to gravity.

darthvyn
06-21-2006, 09:05 PM
The economics analogy is to convey the idea that use ads value, not so much creating.

Anakin likely also was feeling some guilt about killing Tyranus when he stopped Mace. Note the paralell dialogue between the scenes.

And, assuming the Sith are an imbalance does not assign innate morality to the force, any more than heavier than air flight assigns morality to gravity.

actually, bringing up the economics analogy and the murder of darty tyrannus gave me an idea: perhaps the more the dark side is used, that much more of the force is put in the "dark side bank." evil begets evil and all that...

it's already established that the more you use the force the stronger you are with the force. maybe this is the communicative property - the more you use one side of the force, the more of that energy there is?

just a thought...

2-1B
06-21-2006, 11:49 PM
The same way that Ben is the one who found and decided to teach Anakin because that's what was said in the movie? Or is that "interpretation" too?

Why did you quote me when JT was the one who brought up "interpretation" ? lol

I don't know, ask him. :)

stillakid
06-22-2006, 12:14 AM
Why did you quote me when JT was the one who brought up "interpretation" ? lol

I don't know, ask him. :)

Because you were extrapolating a conclusion based on something you saw on a DVD and interpreting from there. However in the past, I've been accused of formulating conclusions based on interpretations. So I'm trying to figure out why it's okay for everyone else but not those of us who find fault with the films. That's all. :)

2-1B
06-22-2006, 12:22 AM
Because you were extrapolating a conclusion based on something you saw on a DVD and interpreting from there. However in the past, I've been accused of formulating conclusions based on interpretations.

No, I thought that way in the first place - I was just pointing out that Lucas said the same thing on the DVD and it happened to agree with my "interpretation." :crazed:


So I'm trying to figure out why it's okay for everyone else but not those of us who find fault with the films. That's all. :)

Who said you can't ? :confused: Oh yeah that's right, nobody said you can't but you seem to have a need to make it "us vs. them", is that it ? lol I think your interpretation that Palps wasn't a Sith is crazy but you're entitled to it, so have at it. ;)

You're the one (well, the loudest one :D ) who bangs away about how your fact based conclusions are facts, but now you're complaining that you don't get to interpret? :confused: :confused: :confused:

stillakid
06-22-2006, 01:06 AM
You're the one (well, the loudest one :D ) who bangs away about how your fact based conclusions are facts, but now you're complaining that you don't get to interpret? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I guess you're right. I don't interpret. I just report the facts. Thanks for setting me straight. :)

I mean, for example, I always assumed before seeing the Prequels that Palpatine was a bad guy Sith Force user too. But after looking at the evidence laden across all six hours, it is crystal clear that he is a novice at best. That isn't because I want it to be that way. It's merely the story that was told. I'm just reporting it. :)

JediTricks
06-22-2006, 04:46 PM
And, assuming the Sith are an imbalance does not assign innate morality to the force, any more than heavier than air flight assigns morality to gravity.I disagree, anybody who uses the simplistic "Sith = imbalance" on its own should have to justify the claim with a non-moral basis because on its own it carries too much "good vs evil" weight.



No, I thought that way in the first place - I was just pointing out that Lucas said the same thing on the DVD and it happened to agree with my "interpretation."Where does Lucas actually say this? I don't remember it.

Dominic Guglieme
06-22-2006, 05:53 PM
actually, bringing up the economics analogy and the murder of darty tyrannus gave me an idea: perhaps the more the dark side is used, that much more of the force is put in the "dark side bank." evil begets evil and all that...

it's already established that the more you use the force the stronger you are with the force. maybe this is the communicative property - the more you use one side of the force, the more of that energy there is?

just a thought...

JT, Darth Vyn does a good job of answering your question. The force, as it is used, is influenced. Just tweak the above quoted post to avoid moral language. The Sith act as a pollutant.

Where does SaK get the idea that the Chancellor is a novice?


On the subject of Kenobi claiming to have "found" Anakin, well, we all know that Kenobi's willingness to lie is on full display in Episode 4. Just call it another Kenobi fib.

JediTricks
06-22-2006, 07:12 PM
I don't like the idea of the Force being finite or hoardable in that manner, in order to bank it like that it would have to be either of those which doesn't seem to jive with how we're taught about the Force. I am sticking with my explanation of how the Force can be thrown out of balance from post #5 because it doesn't say the Force itself is hoardable or finite, it just says that the unnatural order of a power-hungry Sith life can affect the energy of many other people on a grand scale and the very fabric of the universe, thus affecting the source of the Force.

I personally never understood why Stillakid believes Palpatine to be a non-Force-user/novice-Force-user, it never made sense to me (originally I believe his theory was that Palps was using a khyber crystal to FAKE having Force powers in ROTJ even).

I don't buy that "Kenobi's lying about Anakin" thing, I think the Prequels make a clear attempt at retconning a lot of stuff about Obi-Wan's past and that is one of 'em.

stillakid
06-22-2006, 11:16 PM
I personally never understood why Stillakid believes Palpatine to be a non-Force-user/novice-Force-user, it never made sense to me (originally I believe his theory was that Palps was using a khyber crystal to FAKE having Force powers in ROTJ even).


My theory derives from A) the fact that Palpatine didn't NEED to use the Force to get what he wanted politically and B) that he was never detected by any other Force users. Everything else falls into place perfectly.

And I would NEVER suggest any kind of nonsense involving crystals and sh** like that. Those things are for Dungeons and Dragons Star Trek type goons. I prefer my stories and character development to derive from authentic human failing and achievement rather than cop-out shortcut magic crystals and voodoo. Magic (like the Force) can be an element and tool, but never be the primary cause of someone's power or ambition.

My theory merely boils down to Palpatine being an expert political manupulator, much like Karl Rove, who doesn't need to resort to the supernatural to get what he wants. It makes for a much stronger story to rely on a mortal with evil intent taking advantage of a realistic apathetic populace. Simply attributing the downfall of the Republic to some sorcerer casting a spell over a billion people is pretty fu**ing weak if you ask me. Anybody that buys into that simplistic crap deserves to watch product that caters to the lowest common denominator. I'd rather see a semi-realistic allegory which audiences can relate to in their own lives, like our current political fiasco in the United States. Bush and Co. aren't using supernatural magic to influence people, just clever nonsense and a willing and an ignorant society.

Leave the dorky crap to D&D and Lord of the Rings fans. Star Wars used to be about character.

Mad Slanted Powers
06-22-2006, 11:55 PM
The same way that Ben is the one who found and decided to teach Anakin because that's what was said in the movie? Or is that "interpretation" too?I don't know of anywhere in any of the movies where it says that Ben "found" Anakin. He only says that Anakin was strong with the Force when he first knew him.


My theory derives from A) the fact that Palpatine didn't NEED to use the Force to get what he wanted politically and B) that he was never detected by any other Force users. Everything else falls into place perfectly.Just because he didn't need to use the Force doesn't mean he is not a skilled Force user. For his master plan to work, he needed to remain undetected. Plus, even if he is using it, Yoda said in Episode I that the dark side is difficult to see.

stillakid
06-23-2006, 12:24 AM
I don't know of anywhere in any of the movies where it says that Ben "found" Anakin. He only says that Anakin was strong with the Force when he first knew him.


BEN

When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong.


As we all know, he didn't. Qui Gon found Anakin and decided to train the kid. Either Old Ben was lying to Luke or Lucas f'd up the Prequels. Because so much more of the Prequels suck, I'm prone to blame the Prequels and maintain that earlier works are defined as the accepted continuity.



Just because he didn't need to use the Force doesn't mean he is not a skilled Force user. For his master plan to work, he needed to remain undetected. Plus, even if he is using it, Yoda said in Episode I that the dark side is difficult to see.
Okay, so maybe he is a skilled Force user. Maybe I'm an expert marksman too. But if neither of us use our skills, then what does it matter? We might as well NOT be those things. I could be a great cook but if I never cook, then am I really a great cook? So if we see that Palpatine doesn't use the Force often and when he does, he sucks at it, should we not conclude that he's a novice at best and not a master? Again, I'm just looking at what's there and drawing a logical conclusion. It's not my fault. If Lucas wanted Palpatine to be a Zen Master of all Master Force users, he should have put some examples of such in the movies. He didn't therefore Palps isn't. Simple as that. :)

Mad Slanted Powers
06-23-2006, 01:17 AM
BEN

When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong.


As we all know, he didn't. Qui Gon found Anakin and decided to train the kid. Either Old Ben was lying to Luke or Lucas f'd up the Prequels. Because so much more of the Prequels suck, I'm prone to blame the Prequels and maintain that earlier works are defined as the accepted continuity.Once again, where in that quote does it say that Ben found him? You may have an argument on the "took it upon myself to train him" part, but even that can be explained.



Okay, so maybe he is a skilled Force user. Maybe I'm an expert marksman too. But if neither of us use our skills, then what does it matter? We might as well NOT be those things. I could be a great cook but if I never cook, then am I really a great cook? So if we see that Palpatine doesn't use the Force often and when he does, he sucks at it, should we not conclude that he's a novice at best and not a master? Again, I'm just looking at what's there and drawing a logical conclusion.Please provide an example of Palpatine "sucking" at using the Force.

stillakid
06-23-2006, 01:23 AM
Once again, where in that quote does it say that Ben found him? You may have an argument on the "took it upon myself to train him" part, but even that can be explained. .
The "implication" from everything in the OT was that Obi Wan Kenobi found Anakin Skywalker, decided to train him before he was ready, and lost him to the seduction of Palpatine. That's what was always understood by everyone until the Prequels arrived and contradicted it. That is irrefutable.



Please provide an example of Palpatine "sucking" at using the Force.

When did he ever do anything extraordinary? He could levitate some stuff, but the only reason he "beat" Yoda is because Yoda gave up. He gets his a** kicked by Mace in a lightsaber duel. The only other time Palps uses the Force, he can't control it and Vader takes advantage of it to kill him. Not exactly the behavior of a "master."

scruffziller
06-23-2006, 09:30 AM
The Force is suggested to be out of balance in Ep 1, Mace responds to Qui-Gon's claims about the Vergence with this line:

You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy??

The way alot of my friends interpreted it was that in EPS1 the force was out of balance because there were too many lightside Jedi and the Dark Side was weak. But Vader would bring balance because he would make the shift for Dark more prominent thus having an equal amount of light and dark. Thus a balance.



When did he ever do anything extraordinary? He could levitate some stuff, but the only reason he "beat" Yoda is because Yoda gave up. He gets his a** kicked by Mace in a lightsaber duel. The only other time Palps uses the Force, he can't control it and Vader takes advantage of it to kill him. Not exactly the behavior of a "master."

I think Palps' main darkside power was manipulation. That he orchestrated flawlessly.

stillakid
06-23-2006, 12:29 PM
I think Palps' main darkside power was manipulation. That he orchestrated flawlessly.

But it's not a "Force" power like Old Ben used on the Sandtroopers in Mos Eisley. Skillful manipulation is merely a political or interpersonal relationship skill. We see him do that with Anakin at the Cirque Du Solei show during ROTS. No Force going on there, just Palps pulling on Ani's emotional strings.

darthvyn
06-23-2006, 01:22 PM
I don't like the idea of the Force being finite or hoardable in that manner, in order to bank it like that it would have to be either of those which doesn't seem to jive with how we're taught about the Force. I am sticking with my explanation of how the Force can be thrown out of balance from post #5 because it doesn't say the Force itself is hoardable or finite, it just says that the unnatural order of a power-hungry Sith life can affect the energy of many other people on a grand scale and the very fabric of the universe, thus affecting the source of the Force.

not that the force itself is finite, but that the energy/matter in the universe is... anakin takes a life - dooku's - and what happens to the energy (force or otherwise) in dooku's now lifeless body? say, for instance, that when one is murdered the energy released through that act of violence and aggression is the energy that the sith tap into - more murder means more sith (dark side) energy.

stillakid
06-23-2006, 01:38 PM
not that the force itself is finite, but that the energy/matter in the universe is... anakin takes a life - dooku's - and what happens to the energy (force or otherwise) in dooku's now lifeless body? say, for instance, that when one is murdered the energy released through that act of violence and aggression is the energy that the sith tap into - more murder means more sith (dark side) energy.

Energy is finite, but it is just energy, neither good nor bad. Just a tool that can be wielded for any use.

The "dark side" is merely a way to express someone's choice as to how to live their life. Greed, envy, revenge, etc are all attributes which someone chooses to apply to their life. Peace, harmony, love are the opposite. In the Star Wars universe, some special folk can tap into this energy field for telekinetic power and "medium" like "seeing" into feelings and through time.

JediTricks
06-23-2006, 04:12 PM
The way alot of my friends interpreted it was that in EPS1 the force was out of balance because there were too many lightside Jedi and the Dark Side was weak. But Vader would bring balance because he would make the shift for Dark more prominent thus having an equal amount of light and dark. Thus a balance.It's an interesting idea, but again though, this argument suggests the Force has a morality, and that the Force is a hoardable commodity. Besides, if that were the meaning of the prophecy, why would the Jedi Council want Anakin to be trained as a Jedi, why would Qui-Gon so desparately want to fulfil the prophecy of his order's doom?


not that the force itself is finite, but that the energy/matter in the universe is... anakin takes a life - dooku's - and what happens to the energy (force or otherwise) in dooku's now lifeless body? say, for instance, that when one is murdered the energy released through that act of violence and aggression is the energy that the sith tap into - more murder means more sith (dark side) energy.But we're never told that a Force user creates more of the Force than anybody else, so the removal of a single life would be like taking a drop from the ocean, it's only the death of an entire planet of living beings that causes a significant feeling in the Force.



My theory derives from ... B) that he was never detected by any other Force users. Everything else falls into place perfectly.Except that this "never detected by any other Force users" thing isn't supported by the movies, the movies don't say that any ol' Force user can detect any other when they're nearby, only when certain factors are in play such as knowing the person. Dooku doesn't sense Obi-Wan on Geonosis when he's spying, Qui-Gon doesn't sense Maul when they're in the desert, Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon don't sense Maul when he's behind the door in Theed Palace, Luke doesn't sense Vader on Cloud City when he gets tossed out that window.


Simply attributing the downfall of the Republic to some sorcerer casting a spell over a billion people is pretty fu**ing weak if you ask me. That's the point though, he can manipulate all those people with his political skill, his Force powers aren't required for it, but it doesn't mean he doesn't have those Force powers, just that he's adept at machinations as well as magic.


So if we see that Palpatine doesn't use the Force often and when he does, he sucks at it, should we not conclude that he's a novice at best and not a master?Only you are interpretting that he sucks at it. He killed 3 Jedi in a matter of moments, he Force-blasted Yoda and Luke, he opened Luke's cuffs, he sensed Luke's entry into the Force, and he tossed a bunch of senate pods at Yoda.

Dominic Guglieme
06-23-2006, 06:39 PM
I can see SaK's angle on the Emperor. (Though I disagree about his skill with the force. He tosses lightning better than SaK likely can.)


In all seriousness, the idea of the Emperor exploiting innate stupidity is interesting. History supports the ides. (Just look at the side discussion about Hitler over in the "Reading" thread.) But, I have an alternative view for SaK to consider: The Emperor uses the forces (and quite well). And, the idea of needless (and disasterous) stupidity is represented by the compacent Jedi. I can elaborate on this (as JT knows), but I want to see the idea float for a bit.

The prequels do not make the Jedi out to be perfect. But, flawed characters and all.......


As for the light/dark question, what if we see the Force as breathable air? I think some of us are arguing the same point, but using different terms, hence the disagreements.

Mad Slanted Powers
06-23-2006, 08:05 PM
The "implication" from everything in the OT was that Obi Wan Kenobi found Anakin Skywalker, decided to train him before he was ready, and lost him to the seduction of Palpatine. That's what was always understood by everyone until the Prequels arrived and contradicted it. That is irrefutable.Yes, I'll agree that before the prequels were made, even I believed this to be true. However, the prequels say otherwise. Going back to Obi-Wan's quote, I now see that he never actually said that he found Anakin, so there is no contradiction. In Episode I, on at least two occasions, we hear the line "you assume too much." Perhaps this is a message to the audience as well.


When did he ever do anything extraordinary? He could levitate some stuff, but the only reason he "beat" Yoda is because Yoda gave up. He gets his a** kicked by Mace in a lightsaber duel. The only other time Palps uses the Force, he can't control it and Vader takes advantage of it to kill him. Not exactly the behavior of a "master."What makes you think he has no control of it? I just watched the scene, and as soon as Vader grabs him, the lightning stops being directed at Luke and loops back behind Palpatine and hits Vader. What else can he do? Vader is a Force user as well, and he has just put all of his energy into this effort to destroy the Emperor and save his son. Also, JT's last post lists several examples of Palpatine's Force prowess.

scruffziller
06-24-2006, 11:16 AM
But it's not a "Force" power like Old Ben used on the Sandtroopers in Mos Eisley. Skillful manipulation is merely a political or interpersonal relationship skill. We see him do that with Anakin at the Cirque Du Solei show during ROTS. No Force going on there, just Palps pulling on Ani's emotional strings.

Then perhaps his darkside powers allowed him to peer into people's souls and know exactly what to say. He did seem to know more than the average tyrant, regardless of how many eyes and ears he had around. I think whatever manipulative skills he had, his attatchment to the darkside helped it in some way.


Besides, if that were the meaning of the prophecy, why would the Jedi Council want Anakin to be trained as a Jedi, why would Qui-Gon so desparately want to fulfill the prophecy of his order's doom?


Like most prophecies (especially ones in movies) they are misintrepreted. I don't think they knew what it meant. And didn't know they didn't know. Or maybe like Stilla, suggests the prequels don't fit with the OT so the so called prophecy doesn't line up with anything that happens in the end. Plus, I don't think the force needs to be seen as having a morality either way. But however the people who control it want to keep it. Like the tides of water on the shore. The waters could engulf the houses on the shore, it cares neither way what it does. But the owners of those houses would like it not to and thus build a dam to control it. But sometimes when we do things to make things favaroable for some it takes away from others. And we don't really understand what "balance" really means.

darthvyn
06-24-2006, 01:21 PM
But we're never told that a Force user creates more of the Force than anybody else, so the removal of a single life would be like taking a drop from the ocean, it's only the death of an entire planet of living beings that causes a significant feeling in the Force.

i'm not saying they're creating any more force... just releasing the energy from one form to another - the same way burning wood gives off heat.

Mad Slanted Powers
06-24-2006, 04:18 PM
i'm not saying they're creating any more force... just releasing the energy from one form to another - the same way burning wood gives off heat.And what sort of energy is given off when you burn a Jedi?

pbarnard
06-24-2006, 04:21 PM
We see in RotJ that a huge flame of purple/white energy is released when Palpatine hits the plasma stream. It is given off again when the clone C'baoth is killed in the Thrawn Trilogy and a handful of other relatively POWERFUL dark side users. It's an artistic/symbolic/metaphor. When the evil doer gathers power to themselves, the energy is released, rather violently back to the universe. When the good/light siders die, they peacefully rejoin the universe at large.

JediTricks
06-24-2006, 05:00 PM
As for the light/dark question, what if we see the Force as breathable air? I think some of us are arguing the same point, but using different terms, hence the disagreements.That's still this idea of a single person using it as a hoardable commodity though, and I don't subscribe to that idea, if someone has to affect the Force that way, I think they have to do it by affecting the masses who create the Force. Something I wanted to see in the prequels was Palpatine convincing the masses to turn against the Jedi (as Dom can attest to from our previous conversations), but in the end Palps does all the work while the people and the Senate are merely bystanders in the fall of the Jedi. This doesn't mean Palps didn't affect the masses who create the Force, but it does mean he didn't do much with that power.


Like most prophecies (especially ones in movies) they are misintrepreted. I don't think they knew what it meant. And didn't know they didn't know.That's asking an awful lot of the plot and of the audience I think.


suggests the prequels don't fit with the OT so the so called prophecy doesn't line up with anything that happens in the end. What I said a second ago goes double here, if this were the actual case, then it's really vague and mired and makes the prequels unrewarding.


Plus, I don't think the force needs to be seen as having a morality either way. But however the people who control it want to keep it. Like the tides of water on the shore. The waters could engulf the houses on the shore, it cares neither way what it does. But the owners of those houses would like it not to and thus build a dam to control it. But sometimes when we do things to make things favaroable for some it takes away from others.I see what you're saying I think, that it's an issue of being a finite/hoardable commodity, not a moral one (I've been making arguments against both in this thread), but if you start to define the Force as hoardable, ESPECIALLY for a morally-sided group, you need to explain why and how that group is hoarding it - that's what I've been trying to do with this "the Sith manipulating the masses who create the Force" thing. Also, if the Jedi see the prophecy backwards as you suggest, why wouldn't they notice that they're doing what the "bad guys" are said to be doing in the prophecy?



i'm not saying they're creating any more force... just releasing the energy from one form to another - the same way burning wood gives off heat.Sounds like you're suggesting that Anakin is the Highlander, that "there can be only one!" It's an interesting idea that crops up in many societies, but we've never had it shown in Star Wars before so I don't think there's enough foundation to support that Anakin channels the energy of dead Dooku into his own Force-bank, to me it's too much of a left turn from what we've seen otherwise.



We see in RotJ that a huge flame of purple/white energy is released when Palpatine hits the plasma stream. It is given off again when the clone C'baoth is killed in the Thrawn Trilogy and a handful of other relatively POWERFUL dark side users. It's an artistic/symbolic/metaphor. When the evil doer gathers power to themselves, the energy is released, rather violently back to the universe. When the good/light siders die, they peacefully rejoin the universe at large.This is true, but we never see anybody channel it. Doesn't Leia feel the raw anger of the Emperor when she flies past Endor where the Death Star was destroyed? That suggests that it doesn't totally dissipate, that it remains somewhat centralized.

darthvyn
06-24-2006, 07:57 PM
I see what you're saying I think, that it's an issue of being a finite/hoardable commodity, not a moral one (I've been making arguments against both in this thread), but if you start to define the Force as hoardable, ESPECIALLY for a morally-sided group, you need to explain why and how that group is hoarding it - that's what I've been trying to do with this "the Sith manipulating the masses who create the Force" thing.

it's established in the very first movie, that there is a "light side" and a "dark side" TO THE FORCE - ben says it.


Sounds like you're suggesting that Anakin is the Highlander, that "there can be only one!" It's an interesting idea that crops up in many societies, but we've never had it shown in Star Wars before so I don't think there's enough foundation to support that Anakin channels the energy of dead Dooku into his own Force-bank, to me it's too much of a left turn from what we've seen otherwise.

the anakin/dooku duel just got my mind on this track... it's not the only example, nor is anakin hoading anything expressly for himself... my thought process is that there are positive (+) and negative (-) energies in the universe... i'm extrapolating the science into the mysticism we see in the movies - that negative acts create negative energies, which in turn power the dark side. think of it as scientific midi-karma! :D

scruffziller
06-24-2006, 08:39 PM
That's asking an awful lot of the plot and of the audience I think.


True, and that is why I think Stillakid may be correct. But on the other hand, the Jedi did say in EPS2 that they were losing their sight of the force, so what the prophecy actually means eludes them because they think "balancing" the force will be in their favor.

2-1B
06-24-2006, 10:05 PM
JT, the stuff I mentioned is in the ROTS Chosen One featurette. :)

1 min 45 sec mark:

"Anakin is the Chosen One. And even when Anakin turns into Darth Vader, he's still the Chosen One."

12 min 40 sec mark:


"The prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. He becomes Darth Vader. Darth Vader does become the hero. Darth Vader does destroy the Sith, meaning himself and the Emperor. He does it because he is redeemed by his son...so the prophecy is true and by doing that he redeems himself and goes from being Darth Vader back to being Anakin again."

JediTricks
06-25-2006, 03:08 PM
it's established in the very first movie, that there is a "light side" and a "dark side" TO THE FORCE - ben says it.Actually, Ben just says that there's a "Dark Side" of the Force, but that doesn't mean the Force itself has morality in of itself, just that there are philosophies of its use. Yoda too says that there is a Dark Side to the Force in ESB, but he says neither is stronger, so this repeats what Ben says which can be interpreted to refer to users' philosophies, and also says the Force favors no morality.


the anakin/dooku duel just got my mind on this track... it's not the only example, nor is anakin hoading anything expressly for himself... my thought process is that there are positive (+) and negative (-) energies in the universe... i'm extrapolating the science into the mysticism we see in the movies - that negative acts create negative energies, which in turn power the dark side. think of it as scientific midi-karma! :D"Negative energies", you gonna adjust your chakras while you're at it? :p When you mix matter and antimatter together, they annhiliate each other instantly. Using that as the model, the Force can't be made up of both because it'd never exist.



True, and that is why I think Stillakid may be correct. But on the other hand, the Jedi did say in EPS2 that they were losing their sight of the force, so what the prophecy actually means eludes them because they think "balancing" the force will be in their favor.Doesn't that mean the Force prophecy means it'll destroy ALL Force-users then? If so, that's a pretty hard thing to misinterpret as "it'll get rid of just those other guys".



JT, the stuff I mentioned is in the ROTS Chosen One featurette. :)Ah, that explains it, I didn't watch that one.


"The prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. He becomes Darth Vader. Darth Vader does become the hero. Darth Vader does destroy the Sith, meaning himself and the Emperor. He does it because he is redeemed by his son...so the prophecy is true and by doing that he redeems himself and goes from being Darth Vader back to being Anakin again."Ok, that's the "what" then, any other notion of what Balance means goes out the window by Lucas' own words. The "why" and "how" of it though are still up to debate I think.

Dominic Guglieme
06-26-2006, 05:42 PM
The "positive/negative" energies idea works pretty well. It seems to be along the idea I had when trying to frame the Sith as a pollutant.


On the subject of the prophesy, it only specifies one thing, that Anakin will destoy the Sith, thus bringing balance to the force. Anaking does do this. Granted, the road to that balance was bloody. But, the prophesy was executed. If Anakin were not such a twerp, it likely could have been executed more cleanly. Either way, the force gets balanced though.

stillakid
06-28-2006, 12:45 AM
On the subject of the prophesy, it only specifies one thing, that Anakin will destoy the Sith, thus bringing balance to the force.

Yet, isn't that the question this thread poses? What exactly does "Balance" mean in this scenario? "Balance" in our language means that a state of equilibrium is achieved. The problem (if we want to characterize it that way) with this situation is that if Jedi = Good and Sith = Bad and Balance = Equilibrium, then it makes absolutely no logical sense that the obliteration of "Bad" could "Balance" the environment.

So Lucas A) has a completely different definition of "Balance" than the rest of the human race,

B) wrote a "deep" story in which the concept of "balance" gets into some complicated explanations of "energy" that have been offered up here, or

C) he just tossed in some "deep" sounding spiritual Bu**sh** that sounds like it means something (to 3rd graders) but really doesn't and all this questioning can never result in any logical conclusion because there isn't any.


My vote is for C.

2-1B
06-28-2006, 01:18 AM
Balance = no Sith

Mad Slanted Powers
06-28-2006, 01:38 AM
Balance = no SithSo, given what Stillakid said about equilibrium, this would have to mean that the Sith disturb the equilibrium of the Force, due to the nature in which they access it and use it.

Hey, Stillakid has returned from banishment. Does that mean we are in or out of balance now?

stillakid
06-28-2006, 09:35 AM
Balance = no Sith

So what is "Balanced" then? :confused: In other words, what's on the other side of the proverbial scale? You are suggesting that Jedi are on both sides. That just doesn't make any sense given the definition of "balance."

stillakid
06-28-2006, 09:36 AM
So, given what Stillakid said about equilibrium, this would have to mean that the Sith disturb the equilibrium of the Force, due to the nature in which they access it and use it.

Hey, Stillakid has returned from banishment. Does that mean we are in or out of balance now?

In. Without a counter-point (Devi's Advocate), all you get is Rah! Rah! Star Wars worship and rationalization for things that don't make sense. That tips the scale to one side completely.

2-1B
06-28-2006, 01:00 PM
Work it backward stillakid, if it doesn't make sense to you in the simplest of mathematical terms. ;) If Balance = No Sith, then Jedi using the Force for Good probably = Balance because that is the natural order of things. The presence of Sith disrupts that and therefore throws it off balance.


Try another example against your definition and see how foolish it sounds. Take the scales of justice. For our legal system to be balanced, does that mean for every criminal we convict of a crime, another one should go free? Surely not. :confused:

seanmcfripp
06-28-2006, 04:24 PM
Try another example against your definition and see how foolish it sounds. Take the scales of justice. For our legal system to be balanced, does that mean for every criminal we convict of a crime, another one should go free? Surely not. :confused:

Hmmm, something's a little off with that example. I think of a legal system or "scale of justice" as being a lofty concept that's open to interpretation. While the Force is more than just a concept (in the Star Wars universe at least), it too is open to interpretation. To keep in line with Stilla's original example, we should look how justice is implemented and who is carrying it out, not who is affected by it. To make your scales of justice example work, we'd have to change the Force example to something like:

A balanced Force = Force users evenly inflicting Force powers, 50% good folks and 50% baddies. For every Storm Trooper I use the Jedi mind trick on, I must then Force push a good guy standing next to me. It all balances out.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Stilla meant.

Think of it this way, societies are pretty much always going to have a system of justice, but they're going to implement and execute it according to the traditions and beliefs of its people. Are Hamurabi's Laws barbaric to us? Sure, we frown upon the idea of lopping off someone's hand for stealing, and we tend to think we've evolved beyond "an eye for an eye." Does that make our legal system any more just than the Babylonians? Eh, not really. It's totally subjective. You can't really quanitify or measure whether western justice is any more fair of moral than other places in the world, you can only bump it up against your own culture's values and beliefs and make a value judgement. You could do the same thing with good vs. evil, or like we're doing now, light side vs. dark side of the Force.

Personally, I think the whole prophecy/Chosen One thing is waaaay too vague. We know there's a light and a dark side of the Force, so how does use of either side in any amount cause it to be out of balance? If the power of the Force is there untapped to be used by anyone, dark or light, what exactly is balanced or unbalanced when the Sith use something that's already there? I could see the Force being out of balance if the Sith created some kind of unnatural Force-like power that weakened or slowly destroyed the Force, but from what we've been told, Sith use pretty much the same stuff as the light side guys. Seems to me like the Force would be out of balance with all these light side guys running around using light side power and only one or two dark side guys doing dark side stuff. Maybe that's the point to the way it all went down in the films --nobody is supposed to use the stuff in all one way or the other, so the Force somehow engineered a way to get rid of almost all Force users, in the end leaving just one guy, Luke, who kinda straddled the line of demarcation.

But of course Lucas wasn't very clear, and we got what got. Now we're supposed to make sense of it? I don't think so. There's really nothing to make sense.

JediTricks
06-28-2006, 04:45 PM
he just tossed in some "deep" sounding spiritual Bu**sh** that sounds like it means something (to 3rd graders) but really doesn't and all this questioning can never result in any logical conclusion because there isn't any.I get the second part, but you censored "bull" too? :D

I don't know if I believe this to be the case, Lucas has had this "balance of the Force" thing on his mind for quite a while really, and he did do some research into myths and spiritual commonalities and differences and such back in the day. I think he probably is cutting SOME corners but has more in mind than you think, there may be a real reason behind it and he just didn't explain enough of it to fulfil it. I've noticed in the prequel DVD commentaries that he's occasionally surprised when the majority audience doesn't get something obtuse that he feels was blatant - a good example of this is that Sifo Dyas thing from AOTC where he says it was obviously Dooku using the name to order the clones.



Balance = no SithYes, thank you Polly Parrot, but again, WHY does it mean that and HOW does it mean that?


Work it backward stillakid, if it doesn't make sense to you in the simplest of mathematical terms. ;) If Balance = No Sith, then Jedi using the Force for Good probably = Balance because that is the natural order of things. The presence of Sith disrupts that and therefore throws it off balance.

Try another example against your definition and see how foolish it sounds. Take the scales of justice. For our legal system to be balanced, does that mean for every criminal we convict of a crime, another one should go free? Surely not. :confused:The concept of justice is a moral one, by saying that the balance of the Force is one where there is no evil or crime, that's a moral distinction and thus it's saying the Force doesn't just have a morality, but is itself a moral entity. Yet the Force is created by all living things, both good and bad, everybody has some amount of "bad" in them as part of their balance so does the Force attempt to drive all evil out of the universe? And the Force allows evil people like the Sith to use it, not just hesitantly as if it were being coerced, but powerfully and seductively and easily - why would a moral entity such as what you describe allow this? This is why I don't think it's acceptable to chalk up the Force as having a morality, the Force just is what it is, the people using it define how its used.

Let me quote my first post in the thread: "The idea of balance is a funny thing here, Lucas points a lot of his Jedi characters at Asian motifs, the samurai, the warrior monk, but the idea of balance in some Asian cultures says that balance is harmony, yin and yang, an equal balance of good and evil. Maybe that is the gray area within Luke Skywalker."

stillakid
06-28-2006, 06:38 PM
I get the second part, but you censored "bull" too? :D


I got banished for two days for using the word "laid" (I guess...there never was any explanation). Lord knows what the rules are if I gave any more hints as to what Bu**sh** means. :cross-eye



Back to Lucas...I take my definition of the Force from the established continuity...and our most complete explanation came from Yoda in ESB. Given what he says, the Force is merely an energy field, neither good nor bad. The "Dark Side" is merely a metaphorical way of describing someone's behavior and how they choose to use the Force afterwards. The Dark Side isn't a special brand of Force energy floating around out there.

Soooo, given that, it is a real strain to figure out what "balance" means in this context. "Light" and "Dark" are merely behaviors and not indicative of any special properties of the Force itself therefore the Force is never in balance any more than it is out. It just "is."

To play the game though, when Mace suggests that Anakin can bring balance to the Force, it is a statement that the Force is out of balance...meaning that something is inherently wrong to begin with. What's more, when he made that statement, he was of the belief that there were no more Sith in existence. If we assume Mace to be more of an expert on this than any of us, we can instantly negate that the Sith have anything at all to do with this question of "balance." In Mace's world, the only entities who have influence over the Force are Jedi yet the Force is out of balance (necessitating the need for a "Chosen One" who is predicted by a "prophecy.").

Which again begs the question, did George have any real clue what he was trying to write or was it another attempt to shoehorn some mythical mumbo jumbo sounding bullcrap in to make the whole thing sound deeper than it really is?

Mad Slanted Powers
06-28-2006, 09:08 PM
Maybe Mace and the Jedi don't really know what "bring balance to the Force" means. Yoda says in ROTS that maybe they misinterpreted the prophecy. However, Obi-Wan tells Anakin as he is getting deep-fried that he was "to destroy the Sith", so by that statement, the Jedi must have interpreted it as Caesar did.

The Force is created by all living things, but not all living things are Force users, or even Force sensitive. I agree, that the Force itself may be neither good nor bad. However, the ways in which the Jedi and Sith use the Force is different. Luke asks Yoda how he will know the good side from the bad, and Yoda responds, "You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." Dooku, Palpatine and Vader all made references to using anger and hatred to fuel the Force.

Imagine if you will one of those cleaning pads that has a nice soft yellow sponge on one side and the more abrasive green material on the other side. Using the green side is like using the dark side of the Force. It may be quicker and easier to scrape hardened stuff off of your pots, pans and silverware, but it will dull the finish, and they won't be all nice and shiny anymore. Using the yellow sponge side will get the job done and will do less damage. So, it is my belief that using the dark side of the Force somehow upsets the natural balance of the Force. This could be why the Jedi's ability to use the Force was diminished.

2-1B
06-29-2006, 01:28 AM
In. Without a counter-point (Devi's Advocate), all you get is Rah! Rah! Star Wars worship and rationalization for things that don't make sense. That tips the scale to one side completely.

You're not the only devil's advocate around these forums so I don't know why you like to put yourself out that way. :confused:


Yes, thank you Polly Parrot, but again, WHY does it mean that and HOW does it mean that?

I think I already posted it in this thread, that the natural order of things is Jedi Knights using the Force for Good and the presence of the Sith throws that out of Balance. I think that's a pretty simple explanation of what it means, I'm not sure what else to tell you. I really don't think these movies are that deep, not as deep as some of the posts in this thread. :confused:


This is why I don't think it's acceptable to chalk up the Force as having a morality, the Force just is what it is, the people using it define how its used.

Not if you ask your friend Qui-Gon Jinn who told Ani that the midichlorians communicate the Will of the Force. ;)


To play the game though, when Mace suggests that Anakin can bring balance to the Force, it is a statement that the Force is out of balance...meaning that something is inherently wrong to begin with. What's more, when he made that statement, he was of the belief that there were no more Sith in existence. If we assume Mace to be more of an expert on this than any of us, we can instantly negate that the Sith have anything at all to do with this question of "balance." In Mace's world, the only entities who have influence over the Force are Jedi yet the Force is out of balance (necessitating the need for a "Chosen One" who is predicted by a "prophecy.").

I think that they knew of the Prophecy for quite some time and since they didn't believe the Sith to be around (Ki-Adi-Mundi) they would be confused as to why this boy would be the Chosen One...but Qui-Gon also encountered this Sith Lord and that got the ball rolling. By the end of TPM Yoda even admits the kid might be the Chosen One.


Yoda says in ROTS that maybe they misinterpreted the prophecy.

Exactly, and I suspect (as Obi-Wan seems to say) that they did so in the sense that they thought a savior would fulfill a prophecy in an heroic way. They "misread" it in the sense that the Chosen One didn't fulfill the prophecy without first Falling and doing terrible deeds. Obviously a vague prophecy or else they would have been more ready. lol

Without getting too R&P but drawing a valid comparison to Jesus, the Jews were waiting for a Messiah/Chosen One of one sort while Christians retroactively see Jesus as a Chosen One of another sort. Somebody misread that prophecy, right? lol
(not an endorsement of either religious group :) )

JediTricks
06-29-2006, 05:59 PM
I got banished for two days for using the word "laid" (I guess...there never was any explanation). Lord knows what the rules are if I gave any more hints as to what Bu**sh** means. :cross-eyeIt wasn't the word itself, it was the usage, the whole opening post of that thread.



Back to Lucas...I take my definition of the Force from the established continuity...and our most complete explanation came from Yoda in ESB. Given what he says, the Force is merely an energy field, neither good nor bad. The "Dark Side" is merely a metaphorical way of describing someone's behavior and how they choose to use the Force afterwards. The Dark Side isn't a special brand of Force energy floating around out there. That's how I take it as well, but apparently others interpret the notion of the "Dark Side" to mean that there is a Dark Side to the Force itself rather than to the user.


Soooo, given that, it is a real strain to figure out what "balance" means in this context. "Light" and "Dark" are merely behaviors and not indicative of any special properties of the Force itself therefore the Force is never in balance any more than it is out. It just "is."Although that's what I was arguing as well, I did make the case for the possibility that the Force itself can be whacked out of balance when a large majority of the living beings in the galaxy who create it are negatively affected by something, such as a scheming politician who thrusts the galaxy into false conflict and thus his acts indirectly tainting the source of the Force.


To play the game though, when Mace suggests that Anakin can bring balance to the Force, it is a statement that the Force is out of balance...meaning that something is inherently wrong to begin with. What's more, when he made that statement, he was of the belief that there were no more Sith in existence. If we assume Mace to be more of an expert on this than any of us, we can instantly negate that the Sith have anything at all to do with this question of "balance." In Mace's world, the only entities who have influence over the Force are Jedi yet the Force is out of balance (necessitating the need for a "Chosen One" who is predicted by a "prophecy.").Although you are correct about Mace believing there were no more Sith, the Jedi Council seemed to be of the mind that it was still possible - albeit not likely - for the Sith to reappear at some point in the future. Also, I don't think they *must* see it as a Jedi-only issue, see my previous paragraph for why.



Maybe Mace and the Jedi don't really know what "bring balance to the Force" means. Yoda says in ROTS that maybe they misinterpreted the prophecy. However, Obi-Wan tells Anakin as he is getting deep-fried that he was "to destroy the Sith", so by that statement, the Jedi must have interpreted it as Caesar did.If they don't know, then why would Qui-Gon be so excited about finding the keystone to a prophecy that could be threatening? He's anything but cautious in the matter, as if he knows what it can mean. The Jedi seem fairly confident they understand the prophecy, Mace and the others on the Council don't have a freak-out when it's mentioned, and Yoda only suggests they might have misread the prophecy:
OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

MACE: So the prophecy says.

YODA: A prophecy . . . that misread could have been.
Caesar isn't interpolating, he's quoting Lucas.


Imagine if you will one of those cleaning pads that has a nice soft yellow sponge on one side and the more abrasive green material on the other side. Using the green side is like using the dark side of the Force. It may be quicker and easier to scrape hardened stuff off of your pots, pans and silverware, but it will dull the finish, and they won't be all nice and shiny anymore. Using the yellow sponge side will get the job done and will do less damage. So, it is my belief that using the dark side of the Force somehow upsets the natural balance of the Force. This could be why the Jedi's ability to use the Force was diminished.You lost me at the imbalance, how does the sponge's scrubby side actually affect it's spongey side? You mentioned that it dulled the finish on your shiny pots and pans, but they are not the Force itself, they are things in the galaxy.



I think I already posted it in this thread, that the natural order of things is Jedi Knights using the Force for Good and the presence of the Sith throws that out of Balance. I think that's a pretty simple explanation of what it means, I'm not sure what else to tell you. I really don't think these movies are that deep, not as deep as some of the posts in this thread. :confused:I think you're selling them short in that respect. As for the balance you describe, that makes the Force out to have a clear morality yet still somehow lets the Sith use it with great power, and I don't buy it. Yoda says that the Dark Side isn't more powerful, just quicker, easier, and more seductive, to me that says the Force is in balance whether used for good or evil.


Not if you ask your friend Qui-Gon Jinn who told Ani that the midichlorians communicate the Will of the Force. ;)This notion was sold out by Lucas himself though, he never mentions it again in his movies and he never has anybody in the saga back up or agree with QGJ's claim, just like how QGJ interprets the midichlorians and the Living Force. Besides, if the Force had a will, and the Force were this moral entity as you say it is, why would the Will of the Force allow the Sith to use the Force?

Dominic Guglieme
06-29-2006, 07:43 PM
Some quick thoughts on the Force:

The Chancellor briefly mentions midichlorians at the opera house.

Assuming the Force has innate morality (which I do not wholly agree with, but will argue) could be a variant of the whole "how can a good god allow for evil people committing evil acts?" question.

And, if one assumes that the Force is out of balance, but is prophesies to be balanced, that only determines where things are trending, not how. As QGJ pointed out, be mindful of the living force, more than the future. Or, to put it another way, it was the journey that mattered more than the ending. Perhaps, if the Jedi were more competant, they could have helped Anakin balance the Force, without a genocide.

Mad Slanted Powers
06-29-2006, 08:19 PM
You lost me at the imbalance, how does the sponge's scrubby side actually affect it's spongey side? You mentioned that it dulled the finish on your shiny pots and pans, but they are not the Force itself, they are things in the galaxy.The sponge itself is not the Force, but the means in which someone chooses to access and use the Force. If anything in my analogy represents the Force, it would be the pots and pans, though that is not a perfect analogy. Mainly, it is to illustrate how one side of the Force can throw things out of balance.

I don't think this ascribes any sort of morality to the Force. A Jedi could do bad things using the light side of the Force, and a Sith could do good things with the dark side of the Force. Perhaps another analogy might help. Let's say the Force is a car with manual transmission. If you know how to drive a stick shift properly, you can shift gears smoothly. If you do that and also take good care of your car, it should run well and last a long time. If you don't know how to drive a stick shift, or don't take proper care when you are shifting, you could grind the gears and mess up your transmission. If you do that and also don't take good care of the car, your car will break down more often and won't last as long. I've never driven a manual shift, so I guess I'm not a Force user.

JediTricks
06-30-2006, 06:14 PM
The Chancellor briefly mentions midichlorians at the opera house.Yes, but he doesn't support QGJ's claims of how they exist or what they do.


Assuming the Force has innate morality (which I do not wholly agree with, but will argue) could be a variant of the whole "how can a good god allow for evil people committing evil acts?" question.Very true, and it's a good thing we have a solid answer on that good God question... oh wait. :p The only things we have on our side for this Star Wars argument over that is that A) we have a defined creator of the SW Universe in George Lucas; B) we have a very narrowly-defined universe from which to cull our evidence from, rather than culling from all of known creation we just have to look to 6 movies.


And, if one assumes that the Force is out of balance, but is prophesies to be balanced, that only determines where things are trending, not how.IMO, the "how" is almost immaterial to the discussion at this point, it's the "why" that really is the crux; the "who" is defined, the "where" is unimportant; and "what" is either the underlying question or the already-answered depending on how deep you're asking the question. But the "how" gets us no closer to the definition of what the balance means whereas the "why" gives us a foundation on which to build a theory.



The sponge itself is not the Force, but the means in which someone chooses to access and use the Force. If anything in my analogy represents the Force, it would be the pots and pans, though that is not a perfect analogy. Mainly, it is to illustrate how one side of the Force can throw things out of balance.I don't think you and I are in argument about the question of how someone chooses to access the Force, you originally said "Imagine if you will one of those cleaning pads that has a nice soft yellow sponge on one side and the more abrasive green material on the other side. Using the green side is like using the dark side of the Force." and I missed that your metaphor was defining the Dark Side was of the User rather than the Force (the paragraph break threw me).

However, I don't get in your metaphor how the user is using the sponge on the Force, that's the big question, do Force users affect the Force directly or not? I think of Force users affecting things within the galaxy, but that the Force was on a higher plane from that and can't be affected on the local level, I guess for me to get your metaphor you'd need to define how the Force users are able to affect the Force directly. Even if I put that aside though, I don't understand how the metaphor affects the sponge side and not the scrubber side if the scrubber has dulled the Force - that applies to your new metaphor with the Manual Transmission as well, the gears are ground down for everybody now.

Mad Slanted Powers
06-30-2006, 09:31 PM
I don't understand how the metaphor affects the sponge side and not the scrubber side if the scrubber has dulled the Force - that applies to your new metaphor with the Manual Transmission as well, the gears are ground down for everybody now.I guess I'm not sure what you are confused about. I'll see if I can list my points and see if you can connect the dots.

What Caesar and I have proposed, and this echoes what Lucas said about Anakin bringing balance to the Force, is that "Balance = No Sith". This is what I have been trying to illustrate, since you and others are having trouble understanding how there is balance when one side has been eliminated.

My belief is that the Force being in balance does not mean that there is an equal amount of everything, both good and bad. Think of the Force as being like some sort of engine, machine, or even the human body. It is in balance when it is running smoothly.

We know from Yoda and Ben in the OT that the Force is an energy field created by all living things. In the PT, Qui-Qon tells us that the midichlorians live inside our cells, and without them, we would have no knowledge of the Force. From this, I extrapolate that one learns to use the Force by learning how to communicate with the midichlorians. As Obi-Wan told Luke, the Force in part controls your actions, but also obeys your commands.

Yoda says that you will know the light side from the dark when you are calm and peaceful. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, not for attack. Vader, Dooku and Palpatine all said that one should use anger and hatred to fuel their Force powers. This illustrates a difference in the way the Jedi and Sith access and use the Force.

I just now had a flash of insight as I went back and added the last line in the midichlorian paragraph. I think that the big difference in how the Sith access the Force is that they are doing less listening to the will of the Force, and more trying to command it. Using anger and hatred are the quicker and easier way to access the Force, but this pays no attention to the will of the Force, only the will of the user. Therein lies the imbalance. It's all about the symbiosis that Qui-Gon mentions to Anakin. If you are patient, you can learn to access the Force in a way that is mutually beneficial to you and the midichlorians. If you are impatient, you will use anger and hate, and you will only benefit yourself. This might negatively affect the midichlorians. Since midichlorians are within all living cells, this could negatively affect all life, and since life creates the Force, this could negatively affect the Force.

That is my theory, it is mine, and belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too (However, I stole that line from Monty Python).

JediTricks
07-01-2006, 01:47 AM
One of my theories, the Sith living beyond their natural lifespan and affecting life in the galaxy on the grandest scale, has the same end result but a totally different approach to the "how". Having a person use the Force locally and by doing so affect the midichlorians of every single living being in the galaxy seems like a wild stretch to me, even if I put a lot of stock into QGJ's claim of what the midis are and what they do this would be asking too much of me to accept, it's too much of a stretch from local to global.

Mad Slanted Powers
07-01-2006, 02:29 AM
One of my theories, the Sith living beyond their natural lifespan and affecting life in the galaxy on the grandest scale, has the same end result but a totally different approach to the "how". Having a person use the Force locally and by doing so affect the midichlorians of every single living being in the galaxy seems like a wild stretch to me, even if I put a lot of stock into QGJ's claim of what the midis are and what they do this would be asking too much of me to accept, it's too much of a stretch from local to global.I'm not saying that every time the Sith uses the Force that it affects the entire galaxy, but it can have ripple effects, and over time this can build up. Also, consider how Yoda was affected by what happened with Anakin and the Sandpeople, and by Order 66, as well as Ben feeling what happened to Alderaan.

El Chuxter
07-01-2006, 01:42 PM
The Light Side of the Force is not good, and the Dark Side is not evil. The words "good" and "evil" aren't appropriate to use. More accurately, the Light Side is selflessness, the Dark Side is selfishness.

Luke uses the same Force choke on the Gamorreans that Vader was fond of, but he was doing so to assist his friend Han (and, in doing so, the rest of the galaxy), so he was not touching the Dark Side. And couldn't it be easily argued that screwing around with someone's mind is a lot more "evil" than giving them a sore throat?

The Jedi are supposed to be monks in the service of the Force, which (as Yoda says in ESB) is the collective life force of the entire galaxy. The Force can be used by a Jedi, but should instead use the Jedi. Jedi should serve the universe as a whole at all times, using the powers the Force grants them if necessary.

If anyone is using the Force for their own purposes, as the Sith do, and as Luke comes dangerously close to doing in ROTJ, then this is the Dark Side. Yoda never calls the Dark Side evil. He says it is taking the easy way. Luke failed in the cave because he should not have attacked the Vader image in anger. The Jedi way would've been only to use force (or the Force) if necessary.

If the Dark Side is used, period, then the Force is out of balance. As long as there are Sith, who selfishly use the Force, then there is no balance.

Luke's love for Anakin keeps him from going fully over the edge, and then Anakin destroys the only other Dark Side user before dying himself. In this way, he brings balance to the Force.

The Jedi were so easily beaten because they were, unquestioningly, serving a governmental body they knew to be in the hands of a few selfish beings rather than altruistically serving all. In this, they themselves fell to the Dark Side without knowing it. Unlike the Sith, they didn't know how to properly channel the Dark Side, and so they found themselves less powerful without knowing why. Were they truly serving the Force, they could not have been blindsided. But they never would've been fighting in the Clone Wars to begin with, so it would be a moot point.

darthvyn
07-01-2006, 02:09 PM
hey, chuxarky - couldn't you have just said "balance = no sith"? :D :yes:

actually, this is the best arguement against my theory that i've ever heard. very concise and well thought-out. totally different than the eastern school of thought my theory comes from (which, mind you, my theory is based in the eastern school of thought since george borrows heavily from the same...)

this theory, however can even be supported by some of the dialogue in the "cirque du univers" scene in ROtS...

"the dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

going with the idea that "natural" = "balanced" this works out very well... from a certain point of view... :D

Mad Slanted Powers
07-01-2006, 02:33 PM
Indeed, well said Chux. That is similar to what I was trying to say.

JediTricks
07-01-2006, 03:57 PM
I'm not saying that every time the Sith uses the Force that it affects the entire galaxy, but it can have ripple effects, and over time this can build up. Also, consider how Yoda was affected by what happened with Anakin and the Sandpeople, and by Order 66, as well as Ben feeling what happened to Alderaan."Ripple effects" how though? Through Palpatine's indirect actions, Alderaan was destroyed causing a heavy affect on the Force, but Palpatine himself did nothing in terms of Force use to cause it - in that respect, I believe that anybody can have the same affect on the Force whether they're a Force user or not, but that's not the imbalance, only the Sith with their unnatural living powers that keep them artificially alive beyond their years continuing to affect the galaxy is an imbalance I think.

Yoda wasn't affected by Anakin's actions, he was affected by Qui-Gon's spirit who was affected by Anakin's actions. Order 66 he felt the deaths of his colleagues, that's the same "anybody could have done that" effect as I just mentioned.



The Light Side of the Force is not good, and the Dark Side is not evil. The words "good" and "evil" aren't appropriate to use. More accurately, the Light Side is selflessness, the Dark Side is selfishness.If you are defining the Light and Dark sides as sides of the Force rather than of the Force user, that seems like a moral judgement on the side of the Force and the question of balance is still a moral one, and in a way it's almost 2 Forces. However, if the Light and Dark sides are of the user, then the Force just is what it is and the balance is more complex.


Yoda never calls the Dark Side evil. He says it is taking the easy way.The dialogue is pretty clear on this, plus during their conversation about the Dark Side Luke even says "but how am I supposed to know the good side from the bad?" and Yoda responds "you will know, when you are calm, at peace."


Luke failed in the cave because he should not have attacked the Vader image in anger.Actually, Luke's failure in the cave was first the attitude he took going in, he was told he wouldn't need his weapons and he chose to assume an attack posture anyway, for all we know if Luke had a different attitude the visage of Vader would not have even been there and he would have faced a different trial.


If the Dark Side is used, period, then the Force is out of balance. As long as there are Sith, who selfishly use the Force, then there is no balance.And you're saying that's not a moral judgement call??? Any time a Jedi slips and uses the Force even a little selfishly, like to lift up a piece of fruit, that throws the Force out of balance? How, and how can the Sith be the only ones to throw it out of balance? In your argument, you never explain why the selfishness of 2 people can throw the great and powerful energy field created by every living being out of balance - it can be out of balance IN THOSE USERS but on a global level, that seems too far a stretch for me.

Mad Slanted Powers
07-01-2006, 06:06 PM
"Ripple effects" how though? Through Palpatine's indirect actions, Alderaan was destroyed causing a heavy affect on the Force, but Palpatine himself did nothing in terms of Force use to cause it - in that respect, I believe that anybody can have the same affect on the Force whether they're a Force user or not, but that's not the imbalance, only the Sith with their unnatural living powers that keep them artificially alive beyond their years continuing to affect the galaxy is an imbalance I think.

Yoda wasn't affected by Anakin's actions, he was affected by Qui-Gon's spirit who was affected by Anakin's actions. Order 66 he felt the deaths of his colleagues, that's the same "anybody could have done that" effect as I just mentioned.I guess the point is not what caused these events, but the fact that they could be felt over great distances. The Force is kind of like God in the Star Wars universe. If God is omniscient and omnipresent, then certainly the Force could be these things too. So, what affects the Force in one local part of the universe is something that could be transmitted through the Force to all parts of the universe. I don't even think it would need to go that far though for the Force to be out of balance. If we think of the Force as one large entity, then there doesn't need to be a problem with it everywhere to be out of balance. Time for another analogy!

Consider the human body. My senior year of high school, while training for track season, I developed a pain in the ball of my foot. I was not sick, and no other part of me was injured. However, the pain was something that forced me to alter the way I ran, so I was a bit out of balance. I began landing more on the outside of my foot. Eventually, I developed a pain there. So, even though the damage is not to my entire body, I am aware of the problem and it does affect me as a whole. Also, a problem in one spot led to a problem in another spot.

In the end, we are arguing about a mystical Force in an imaginary world. We don't even understand the nature of our own real universe. Is there or is there not a God, a Force, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster? If so, what is its nature? If not, science won't likely be able to explain everything either, at least not anytime soon. So, the only complete answer as to why Balance = No Sith is " 'cause it just bees that way, man!":yes: