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stillakid
01-25-2002, 10:51 AM
What a lame idea. I have no idea who started this but clearly they "love" LOTR and that's about all they know about Jackson. There's nothing else in his resume that indicates that he would be any better at directing EP III than anyone else. Stupidity.

The fact is that a director is no better than the script that was written, the actors that he has to work with, or the very strong (Lucas) producer that he'd have to work with. Jackson, or anyone else, would still be at the mercy of a poorly constructed prequel series and fading enthusiasm for the saga.

bigbarada
01-25-2002, 12:00 PM
There was nothing is Jackson's resume to indicate that he could direct LOTR either, and look what an amazing job he did on that. There was nothing in George Lucas' resume to indicate that he could even pull off Star Wars in 1977; but he obviously did.

It's not about experience, it's about passion for the project. Something that GL obviously no longer has for Star Wars, given the lackluster stories and design work on the prequels.

I actually signed the petition, sure it'll never happened but it is fun to dream.:happy:

2-1B
01-25-2002, 12:23 PM
bigbarada, I was browsing through the old forums, and I noticed that you once defended the prequels (well, TPM anyway).

I'm wondering what happened to your enjoyment of the film?

:)

PloKoon2385
01-25-2002, 12:57 PM
George needs to remain at the helm. He is the only one who should direct this next movie. It is his creation and if I was him I would never give it up. Sorry....... By the way, I like TPM. Also, I like your new avatar Stillakid:D

bigbarada
01-25-2002, 01:07 PM
It's just been a slow build up of disappointments. The lackluster design work on Ep2 began to wear on me. I was slightly disappointed in the choice of a pretty-boy to play Anakin. Also, the NSYNC announcement was a big blow to my confidence in Lucas. There is so much more: the stilted acting in the trailers, that horrid teaser poster, the self-congratulatory attitude of Lucas and ILM. However, the straw that broke the camel's back was the pictures of the Ep2 figures. Bad enough to get me to consider abandoning Star Wars permanently. I'll wait until I see the movie before I make that final decision. IMO, the jury is still out on the film, but the death sentence has been passed on the toys.

When I saw FOTR, it was an eye-opening moment for me. Up until then I was content with the notion that a fantasy film needed to pander to kids in order to be successful and profitable. Peter Jackson's effort has blown that idea out of the water and it helped me to look back on Ep1 without the "I must love it" bias. I now understand the mistakes GL has made in the prequels and SE's and I don't appreciate them one bit. And I'm no longer willing to just pass it off as "it's Lucas' universe, let him do what he wants."

derek
01-25-2002, 06:39 PM
this whole idea is stupid based on the fact that those who started this petition have not even seen episode 2 and are ripping lucas for this film before it's even released. this is the sign of fans who would not ever be happy with the prequil trilogy no matter what. if this petition had been started in late may and episode 2 is horrible, this petition may have had some credibility.

JetsAndHeels
01-25-2002, 07:07 PM
I agree Derek. Star Wars is George Lucas' masterpiece. Everything that is Star Wars, from the movies to the comic books is his idea. Even the characters and stories in the books and novels is his, just because it is based on his ideas. Suppose LOTR was a total bomb, and it did bad, would anyone try to take Peter Jackson's place as the director? No, of course not.
I can tell just by the spoilers and the previews that Episode II is going to be great. I think it will be much better than Episode I because the story is now set up;Anakin is an adult and the chain of events that leads upto the Galactic strife is now underway. Just seeing the 3 trailers indicates that this movie is going to be great. It has a darker feel to it, like ESB.
For anyone to start a petition to get Jackson to direct Episode III is insulting to me, as a lifelong Star Wars fan. This is George Lucas' idea, and he is the one who should do his movies. It is common sense.
Of course there are always going to be people out there who will bash the movie and will hate it. No one can prevent that, because everyone has a different opinion and a different sense of what they like in a movie. However, that is no reason to get the crazy notion that someone else should direct the movies.
All hail George Lucas!!

stillakid
01-25-2002, 07:16 PM
All hail...well, I wouldn't go that far.

I finally got some time to do nothing, so I sat down and watched the documentary that is on the EP I DVD. I found myself chuckling a few times. The funny part isn't so much that Lucas himself wondered aloud about screwing it up, it's that the documentary team included those statements at all. I'm sure that Lucas had some kind of approval over what was ultimately released. Add that up with the addition of Johathan Hale for EP II and it appears on the surface that Lucas more or less admits that he let everyone down (well, almost everyone. see above post).:rolleyes:

As much as anyone, I hope for the best with EP II, but no matter how good it might be, the shoddy foundation laid down by TPM will continue to hurt the saga forever.

GNT
01-25-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by PloKoon2385
George needs to remain at the helm. He is the only one who should direct this next movie. It is his creation and if I was him I would never give it up. Sorry....... By the way, I like TPM. Also, I like your new avatar Stillakid:D

I totally agree,its his movies his ideas,he started it and now let him finish them off the way he wants too!About TPM the only really good parts were the end battle with Maul and Obi the rest was just boring :)

preacher
01-25-2002, 08:46 PM
Seems there will always be a petition over some thing where Star Wars is concerned. Its GLs baby. These Gomer's need to stop wasting their lives fixed on "Jarjar" hate and move on.

Its been almost three years! In the words of the band The Eagles....GET OVER IT! WAOOOO.

JediTricks
01-25-2002, 09:15 PM
I think it's funny. Episode I has so tainted the Star Wars and post-Star Wars generations that many of them feel so betrayed by Lucas to do this. Let's face the truth, Lucas is not the ONLY genius behind the successful movies of Star Wars, he had a lot of folks helping him like ANH/ESB producer Gary Kurtz; and he handed ESB over to Kurtz, screenwriter Lawrence Kasdan, and director Irvin Kershner who created what's largely considered the finest film in the series, so I think it's pure arrogance to assume that "only Lucas should be working on the prequels". That doesn't mean I agree with the petition, but I do think Lucas needs someone to slap him in the face and say "LOOK WHAT YOU DID!!! MCCALLUM ISN'T HELPING!!! YOU'VE BECOME DEPENDANT ON YES-MEN AND SPECIAL EFFECTS!!! YOU DON'T NEED TO PANDER TO ANY AUDIENCES, A GOOD MOVIE WILL TRANSCEND THAT!!!"

Emperor Howdy
01-25-2002, 09:55 PM
Stillakid?.........defending George Lucas?..........what the heck is going on here!?!?! :crazed:

2-1B
01-25-2002, 11:01 PM
bigbarada, thanks for your opinions and clarification :) I was a bit confused as to your feelings for the state of the saga, but I certainly understand your viewpoints now. Thanks again.

Stillakid, what parts of the documentary are you referring to? I really thought it was funny how George wondered if he didn't go too far in the editing of the final sequences. :D

stillakid
01-25-2002, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy
Stillakid?.........defending George Lucas?..........what the heck is going on here!?!?! :crazed:

I did? I'm afraid you misunderstood me.
:crazed:

stillakid
01-25-2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


Stillakid, what parts of the documentary are you referring to? I really thought it was funny how George wondered if he didn't go too far in the editing of the final sequences. :D

I'd have to go back in and watch it over again to be specific. There were two or three places where he mentioned how tricky the whole thing was or something like that. How easy it would be to screw it up. I just remember myself thinking, "yeah, you could...and did." There was a part in the beginning of editing, after their first screening, when Ben Burtt felt that the pacing was too quick. GL apparently felt that the audience wouldn't be able to keep up. I wish that I could see that cut, because the one we saw I thought was drawn out and boring.

bigbarada
01-26-2002, 12:16 AM
I think I remember George talking to either Frank Oz or John Williams and talking about how More American Graffiti only made $0.10 and how it was possible to kill a phenomenon with a poor follow-up film.

bigbarada
01-26-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by preacher
Seems there will always be a petition over some thing where Star Wars is concerned. Its GLs baby. These Gomer's need to stop wasting their lives fixed on "Jarjar" hate and move on.


You really shouldn't pidgeon-hole people, I find Jar Jar one of the few redeeming elements of an otherwise poorly realized film. My main issues are with editing and unnecessary special effects laden "gee whiz" sequences where time would have been better spent developing the characters and plot.

Saying it's exclusively GL's baby is just ignorant. Nobody writes in a vacuum and it's absolutely impossible to make a multi-million dollar movie in a vacuum. Other opinions and points of view are necessary to keep the film focused and the story flowing. Unfortunately, GL tries to do to much himself and it shows. That's just arrogance, not genius.

Obi-Don
01-26-2002, 03:56 AM
GL didn't do Star Wars on his own.I know it was his idea,but we all know he was not a lone in the making. I think he should stick to the story and let others help with the movie such as the budgeting,directing,and producing. I think he gets all wrapped up in the making of intsead of the telling of. GL should stay with what he does best.Story telling.

preacher
01-26-2002, 11:36 AM
Not write in a vaccum? Pardon me for saying so Bigbarda, but have you ever written a story? Speaking from experience that is pretty much exactly what you do. You cannot afford the time or energy to listen to every opinion.

There are several factors in the writing the process:

1) You write about what you know. If you don't know anything You have to do a ton of research. Even in Star Wars where there isn't any source material Lucas had to formulate your own world. In a story as massive as star wars it is impossible to do it all on your own.

2) You discipline yourself to write every day. Even if it isn't related to your story you brainstorm.

3) You keep EVERYTHING that you write, because nine times out of ten even if an element that you brainstorm doesn't fit in the continuity of your story, it may in another story or another part of your story.

4) You must understand that any story you write will not be the same in the end as when you started.

5) You must understand emotional dynamics.

6) You don't kill off characters unless there is a payoff in the end. The death better benefit the other characters or it ****es off the audiance.

7) You must understand your own faults and strengths and infuse each of your characters with a bit of yourself.

The last factor is what truly makes a story. And its why you have to write in a vacuum. If you start letting others write the story for you, you cannot possibly feel a connection with your own characters. Thats when the story suffers.

And yes I have written stories, so I know what I'm talking about. But no I haven't gotten anything published yet. Maybe I never will. So I would understand if you take what I've experienced with little weight. But I know how to write and enjoy doing it.

The characters in TPM were shallow. I'll admit it. But I don't think its because Lucas wrote in a vacuum. Actually the opposite. He admitted it was more of a family project. His kids named Jarjar Binks for crying out loud. Carrie Fisher edited his screenplay, I'd I'm sure Rick McCullum had his opinions as well. Lucas made two mistakes. First, he didn't write his story and second he tried to cram way too much information into TPM.

I like Star Wars as much as the next fan. But writing petitions to get Jackson to direct the next movie, and pre-judging AOTC four months before it even hits the big screen (in my estimation) is a waste of time. And IMHO those who do it are gomers. I pity those who get bogged down over such things. Sorry if you don't like my label, but I stand by it.

Obi-Dan Kenobi
01-26-2002, 04:14 PM
I don't think the problems stem from Lucas having too many people contributing. A Star Wars movie is so huge that you have to have a lot of people working on things. I think it's that he has too many of the WRONG people working on things. When he made the first two, he wasn't so big that no one would tell him "no." ROTJ has problems, if you ask me. The biggest error for me was making Luke and Leia siblings. The Ewoks are okay with me, but I still would have rather seen Wookies. I think at this point there weren't enough people challenging his decisions. And with TPM, I don't think ANYONE was challeging him. It was all "Yes, George, you're the man!" Now, as an artist and writer myself, I know it's important sometimes to step back and let other people look at your work and give you their opinions. It can help you to see things that you can't when you're totally absorbed in it. Prsonally, I want criticism. I want people to tell me what they think is wrong so I can either say "Maybe I could change this and make it better," or "Screw it, this is fine the way it is." Unfortunately, I think Lucas never gets a chance to consider that he's doing something wrong. Hence, over-emotive Gungans and the like. I think another director would help a lot. Not necessarily Jackson, but anyone who would treat the original trilogy with some degree of reverence, but not be afraid to challenge Lucas.

stillakid
01-26-2002, 06:26 PM
Anyone who writes in a vaccuum is a poor writer by choice. Yes, we writers sit down to write what we know and by necessity, infuse bits and pieces of ourselves into the story. But feedback from someone outside the process is essential, not just at the end but at various points along the way. Lucas made the choice to not invite a co-writer into TPM the way he had done previously with every other film he'd written... and it shows.

Lucas also made a comment on the DVD about why the auteur theory was applicable because a film contains so much of himself in it. Great, but approval power over production design and music, etc. does not mean that he was the actual creator of those elements. You can sit down and write on your own, sit down and draw a picture on your own, but I have yet to see anyone produce a major motion picture entirely by themselves. It is not the achievement of an individual and to suggest such a thing is an insult to the creativity of everyone else involved.

He chose to insulate himself during the most crucial time, that being the writing of the story, but then after opening the floor up for opinions, proceeded to claim that the whole thing was his creation. I don't really get it.

bigbarada
01-26-2002, 07:43 PM
While writing, and I know from experience, it is so easy to get sucked into your own world and lose focus. You become so enamoured with the world you are creating that you tend to linger where you shouldn't and rush through parts that seem to make sense to you at the time. This is why an objective outside opinion is needed, or several for that matter, in order to craft a concise, cohesive and understandable story.

konas
01-27-2002, 09:10 AM
We all grew up. Nothing can bring our childhood feelings back in exactly the same way with the execption of the vintage toys. Peter Jackson, Steven Spielberg, John Q Smith, it won't matter. Try to watch Episode 1 as if you were a kid again and you will see it's not that diferent. How do you think older fans of the first trillogy felt about Yoda? Most of us that are the same age loved Yoda and did not care as much for the Ewoks. That's becuase we were getting older and the older the fans got, the more they realized the magic was gone. George hasn't changed but we have. Some of us are writters and creators ourselfs now. We think we can do better and we are much more difficult to please. If theres one thing I've learned about people since I was a child, its that they never stop complaining about things as an adult. In any one of your jobs, no matter what you do, some will be happy with your work and some will think your doing it all wrong. Then they will start petitions to have you removed from your responsibility. Peter Jackson indeed... :)

bigbarada
01-27-2002, 10:56 AM
So, what you're saying, konas, is that we've become a bunch of crotchety old men who sit on the porch predicting the weather with our bad knees and starting every conversation with, "Back in my day.....":p


"...we didn't have this new-fangled 'ceeee-geeeee' for our aliens. Yep it was latex and rubber all the way."

"...we didn't have none of this farting and steppin' in Ronto-pie nonsense. An effeminate robot and a chirping fireplug would get us laughing every time"

"...we didn't neeed 30 different outfits for the girls to wear. White pajamas and taped down breasts was all we needed to get our motors humming."

:D

stillakid
01-27-2002, 06:15 PM
I've heard that argument before, that we don't appreciate TPM because we're older. For anyone using that line of thinking, you are implying that ANH was a terrible movie and we just couldn't see it because we were too young and naive. There are box-office records and worldwide fanclubs to prove that wrong. ANH was indeed a well crafted movie whereas TPM had a lot to live up to and failed miserably.