Idiotic "toxic" parents

[seanmcfripp]

Give this a read, if you have some time (it's rather longish...if you read the Washington Post Magazine, it's the main feature article):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/26/AR2006072601291.html

It's pretty easy folks: parents shouldn't fascilitate under-aged drinking.

The bigger issue though is parents who are unable to set boundries for children, or feel that boundries and/or stucture are what break down the parent/child relationship. Quite the opposite. Children crave and thrive on routine and structure. These parents who are allowing children to drink and have co-ed sleepovers in their homes are the same parents who let their children sleep in bed with them at a young age. They're the same parents who think it's cruel to let a child cry. They're the same parents who think children have the same rights as adults. In turn, these parents are churning out some real losers.

I have 2 and 1/2 year old twin girls, and nothing burns me up more than having some idiot tell me "Wow, your girls are so well behaved. You're so lucky!" Uh, what does luck have to do with it? My girls are well adjusted because my wife and I raise them to be that way, and that has very little to do with luck.

So anyone here on the side of being a "cool" parent and letting their kids drink, I'm anxious to hear your side of it, no matter how strongly I disagree.

[JEDIpartner]

Oh, I thought this was going to be about Britney Spears and Kevin Dunderhead.

[DarthQuack]

Screw that, my kids will be lucky if I let them drink before they are 21. They sure as hell aren't gonna be smokers.

[Kidhuman]

Screw that, my kids will be lucky if I let them drink before they are 21.


If you let them???.....kids will drink regardless of parental approval. What are you going to do when they go away to college? Hold their hand while they are there. You can not watch your kids 24/7. Might as well teach them responsibility.

I started drinking at 14. I was going to bars at 16. I would be pi55 drunk at 7 in the morning walking into my house. You cant stop under age drinking, you can only hope to contain it.

[DarthQuack]

Well growing up where I did in the country no one drank and it was never an issue in my house, my Mom was the drill sergeant and laid down the law, none of us Quack's ever stepped outta line.

[2-1B]

I didn't start drinking until I was 19 and I quit shortly before I turned 23...with most of the heavy drinking being done between ages 19-21. :)

[seanmcfripp]

If you let them???.....kids will drink regardless of parental approval. What are you going to do when they go away to college? Hold their hand while they are there.

If you do your job correctly as a parent, you won't have to hold their hand when they leave home, because you've given them the decision making tools, self-esteem, and confidence to do the right thing in peer pressure situations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those goody-two-shoes, preachy kinds of parents, and I put no religious spin on this at all (the churchy-laden version is not my bag). I just think that selling short your influence as a parent is a cop-out, and said cop-out makes for a terribly weak argument.



You can not watch your kids 24/7.

Actually, you can. And this may sound cheesy, but if you've built up your child on a good foundation, the child will do most of the "work" to ensure everyone is safe and making good decisions. All you have to do is be a guide.


Might as well teach them responsibility.

KH, you're not teaching them to be repsonsible by condoning an irresponsible act. Tell me how these sound:

- "Well, kids are going to speed in cars, so I may as well teach them how to drive at 85 mph and pass on the right hand side."

- "Ya know, kids are going to get in fights, so I may as well teach them how to beat the crap out of someone, just in case."

- "Kids are going to have sex at a young age, so I may as well buy them condoms and take regular trips to the clinic."

Problem is that most parents who cop-out are themselves irresponsible people. The father who thinks his kids speed is probably a wreckless driver himself. Parents who allow their kids to drink are more than likely unable to confront their own problems with alcohol. There are so many parents who think in these kinds of ways, and it all comes from under-estimating parental abilities and influence. Sad thing is that it starts at such an early age for their children:

- "My kids cry and cry at night, and I can't stand the thought of them being upset, so I may as well let them sleep in my bed."

- "My kids don't like anything but McDonalds, so I may as well let them have it so at least they'll eat something."

- "My kids love to watch tv, so I may as well let them have a tv in their room so they can watch what they want."

Kid is five years old, and already things are in shambles. If you never impose limits, if you never provide structure, then your child is going to try to satisfy every single immediate impulse they encounter. Once that pattern is established, it only gets harder to fix as a child gets older.


I started drinking at 14. I was going to bars at 16. I would be pi55 drunk at 7 in the morning walking into my house. You cant stop under age drinking, you can only hope to contain it.

I'm guessing this is a setup for one of those "Look at what I did as a kid, and I turned out just fine" arguments, but I'm not buyin' it. Lemme just ask, how exactly did your upbringers "contain" your drinking? If you don't mind, describe for us the conversations that took place at 7:00 AM between you and your parental figure(s)/guardian type person(s) on the mornings you walked in hammered after a long nite of "fun."

[Kidhuman]

They didnt contain it, hence you can only hope to contain it. Kids have a mind of their own. Parents can tell them right from wrong, good from bad, and so on, but if the kid wants to do it, then they will.

You can talk to them until you are blue in the face, but if they want to do it, then they will. You can only hpe they wont.

[Banthaholic]

I remember in high school there was a kid's mom that would buy beer and supply for parties for him etc, at the time we thought that was cool..

Now thinking back it's like what the heck was she thinking. My parents brought me up well where I respected them. Not saying I didn't get out of line at times, because I did. But when I messed up I knew it without them saying anything, and felt bad for what I was doing.

They probably knew I was under-age drinking some, though they allowed me the freedom to learn from my mistakes and to grow from them.

[figrin bran]

i'm in agreement with mcfripp - you have to provide structure and impose limits from an early age. and you also need to explain why so that they can learn to weigh the consequences and make better decisions. "because i said so" isn't really going to cut it and might actually work against you.

[UKWildcat]

"because i said so" isn't really going to cut it and might actually work against you.

Yup. George Carlin says that's the first sign of a stupid rule. :D

[seanmcfripp]

You can talk to them until you are blue in the face, but if they want to do it, then they will. You can only hpe they wont.

But why does it have to stop at "talk to them until you are blue in the face?" Who says you can't take away driving privilidges? If they still sneak out, who says you can't take away their liscence? If they still sneak out after that, who says you can't lock up the keys in a secure place? If they still sneak out, who says you can't put an outside lock on their door at night and seal the windows? In other words, where does it say you can't do whatever it takes to keep your child from situations that lead to bad decision making?

I'm still confused, KH. If I was your father, and I'd asked you not to go out drinking, then you came home at 7:00 AM drunk, then I took your licence, keys, and car (until you proved to me that I could trust you with those priviledges again), what would you do get around my authority? Don't be shy, share some of the creative ways you'd sneak out of the house to go get stupid with your friends, then I'll tell you how a good parent would deal with it. Keep this in mind though: a child's motivation is to have "fun," and to explore societal boundries (much like 2 and 3 year olds...toddler and teenage years are actually startlingly similar from a developmental standpoint), while a parent's motivation is to keep a child safe and on a track for success. Who do you think is more motivated? Remeber, you're going to a lot of trouble to go out and knock back a few beers. I'm going to a lot [I]more trouble to make sure you turn out to be a good person. As a parent, I'm also older, more experienced, and have way more resources than you do. I respect you, but that doesn't mean I'm your buddy, I'm your father.

I give you a few reasonable limits, and you can chose to do anything you want within those limits. If I'm consistent, and make it not worth your while to go outside of those limits, how often do you think you're going to try something stupid?

[Kidhuman]

You take away privleges it makes them rebel more. Take away the car, they have a bus or train or a friend with a car. If you "ground them" they will sneak out. Hell, I blatantly defied my parents and walked right out of the house in front of them. If they were at the front door, I would go out the back.

One of my friends would get grounded and the only way he was allowed out was to go to the store or somehting, so he would hide food and drink all the milk or dump it out so he could get out and go to the store. (Remember, I grew up in NYC so a store was every three blocks or so). There are ways for teenagers to get around everything and do what they need and get what they want. The only thing you can do as a parent is to expect the unexpected and deal with it when the time comes. Take pre-emptive measures to such things.

I am not talking about nailing windows shut, bars on the windows or things of that nature because it could do more harm then good.

[darthvyn]

yeah, i disagree that "lockdown" is the way to handle things like that. i think with open communication and engendering of mutual trust, those types of extreme punishments won't be necessary. my parents really didn't punish me that much, and i didn't really go crazy. i drank responsibly underage (by the time i was 18 or 19, in college, not 14 - that's too young...)

now, sure... i don't have kids, but i will have my first in just over 4 months, and i had a good example set by my parents. it's about communication. the girls that are locked up until graduation from high school are the ones that either

a: go nuts with drugs and alcohol and promiscuity in college

or

b: are too introverted and unable to function in social situations and have a hard time ever having a real relationship.

i've seen both happen. for the most part, boys that are on "lockdown" all the time just go with "a".

[El Chuxter]

Back to the original subject, you want to know who has toxic parents?

The son of Poison Ivy and the Toxic Avenger. (I think his name is Reggie.)

[JEDIpartner]

My parents allowed me a sip of alcohol from time to time starting around the time I was five. Because I had a little taste of it, it didn't hold any special allure to me. I never got drunk and mind my alcohol consumption as an adult. *shrug*

[seanmcfripp]

yeah, i disagree that "lockdown" is the way to handle things like that.

"Lockdown" is definitely a last resort. I was just trying to make the point that a kid with behavior like KH described shouldn't be allowed to "win" a pi$$ing contest.


i think with open communication and engendering of mutual trust, those types of extreme punishments won't be necessary.

My sentiments exactly.


my parents really didn't punish me that much, and i didn't really go crazy. i drank responsibly underage (by the time i was 18 or 19, in college, not 14 - that's too young...)

it's about communication. the girls that are locked up until graduation from high school are the ones that either

a: go nuts with drugs and alcohol and promiscuity in college

or

b: are too introverted and unable to function in social situations and have a hard time ever having a real relationship.

i've seen both happen. for the most part, boys that are on "lockdown" all the time just go with "a".

Those parents usually go the other extreme, eliminating all choice. You hit the nail on the head, it's got to be a mix of both, choices within reasonable limits.


My parents allowed me a sip of alcohol from time to time starting around the time I was five. Because I had a little taste of it, it didn't hold any special allure to me. I never got drunk and mind my alcohol consumption as an adult. *shrug*

Not a bad way to handle it either. A five year old needs to understand that there's nothing magical or special about beer or wine, or more importantly, that drinking alcohol doesn't make a person special. Having a sip with adults in a situation where alcohol is appropriately being consumed is probably a very good idea, as it helps a child get a good handle on what can be a really nice human tradition (drinking, wining and dining, etc.). Pounding beers in front of your kids while preaching "You can't have any, this is a special drink for daddies" probably isn't the best way to go about it. If you make something off limits, but never take the time to explain why, your child is left to investigate on their own. Beer commercials fill in the blanks: Drinking beer makes you happy and likable!


The only thing you can do as a parent is to expect the unexpected and deal with it when the time comes. Take pre-emptive measures to such things.

The preemptive measure should be to parent consitently from the beginning.


Hell, I blatantly defied my parents and walked right out of the house in front of them. If they were at the front door, I would go out the back.
And how exactly were you able to get away with that? If I'd have tried that with my father, there would have been problems. Not to say he'd have tried to hurt me or anything, but he'd definitely have physically stopped me from leaving the house if that's what he wanted. I don't know what you're situation was growing up, but it sounds like you had an attitude that your parents couldn't make you do anything. That attitude probably had very little to do with you, and almost everything to do with them. Like I said, bring that attitude to a household like mine, and you wouldn't have gotten very far. I mean, you could be stubborn, and try to resist every step of the way, but in the end, my parents would have broken that behavior. Again, that's not to say they'd make every choice for you, but you most certainly wouldn't have stormed out of the house if they didn't want you to.

Don't get me wrong, my parents weren't hard-asses at all. They had rules, and they were firm when it came to those rules. I had pretty much free reign outside of that. My parents have plenty of room nowadays if you want to shack up with them and re-live ages 15 - 17, KH. Might be an interesting experiment.

[Kidhuman]

And how exactly were you able to get away with that? If I'd have tried that with my father, there would have been problems. Not to say he'd have tried to hurt me or anything, but he'd definitely have physically stopped me from leaving the house if that's what he wanted. I don't know what you're situation was growing up, but it sounds like you had an attitude that your parents couldn't make you do anything. That attitude probably had very little to do with you, and almost everything to do with them. Like I said, bring that attitude to a household like mine, and you wouldn't have gotten very far. I mean, you could be stubborn, and try to resist every step of the way, but in the end, my parents would have broken that behavior. Again, that's not to say they'd make every choice for you, but you most certainly wouldn't have stormed out of the house if they didn't want you to.

Don't get me wrong, my parents weren't hard-asses at all. They had rules, and they were firm when it came to those rules. I had pretty much free reign outside of that. My parents have plenty of room nowadays if you want to shack up with them and re-live ages 15 - 17, KH. Might be an interesting experiment.


I had a good situation growing up. I always had outs for everything. I had a job since I was 13. If I was grounded and at work and wanted ot go out for a few hours, I would call my parents and tell them I was working a little later and go do what I wanted. Sure I got caught sometimes, but what can ya do except go on with life and deal with it as it arises. Dont be scared to get caught, thats how I am.

As for getting out the back door, as I walked out(ran) I would hop the fence in my yard and be gone before they even got to the door. My room was right next to the back door anyway. I dont like being told what I can and can not do by anyone. I know what I have to do and I do it. At my job I always put in about 10-15 hours of OT a week. I was doing it voluntarily with out any issues. Then they told us we had to work a mandatory 4 hours of OT a week and I said screw that. I work my mandatory and thats it now.

As for living with your parents, might wanna call FOX and get that reality show a working. Sounds like it could be interesting. The only thing is I dont drink or do drugs anymore, so I am not as rebellious as I once was.

[seanmcfripp]

As for living with your parents, might wanna call FOX and get that reality show a working.

My parents would be too boring. My dad would be out jogging and doing yard work half the time during the show. CBS would probably be better to pick it up.

[InsaneJediGirl]

I think the major problem in parenting is moms and dads who are too busy living their own lives to actually parent. That an unwillingness to lay down some rules for fear of little Timmy hating them for a few weeks.

My mom,as I got older,was/is the "semi-cool" mom but she still lays down the rules and there are certain lines you just dont cross.Besides,I never had much to rebel from anyways...Works out pretty good,I think I've turned out halfway decent.

In terms of drinking,I started at about 15. At Thanksgiving/Christmas its tradition to get a small drink with some alcohol in it and thats it(maybe 4 oz of beverage total). Normally it was egg nog mixed with a dash of something and like Jedipartner,it really took the mystic-feeling of drinking away for me. I have no desire to go out and get wasted because I already know what its about so to speak.

As for kids getting alcohol,its fairly easy in high school because most of my friends and I had friends in college. Of course they drink,so of course its brought to parties. I think when people become parents and by the time they have kids in high school,they forget that fact.

[figrin bran]

not only would we watch that reality show, i'm sure some of us would want to BE on it! :)

there could be the KH gets his internet privileges taken away episode, the KH sneaks out to hit the 24 hr WM with several SSG'ers episode, the visit from slicker's mom episode...

[seanmcfripp]

not only would we watch that reality show, i'm sure some of us would want to BE on it! :)

there could be the KH gets his internet privileges taken away episode, the KH sneaks out to hit the 24 hr WM with several SSG'ers episode, the visit from slicker's mom episode...

My dad kinda looks like Peter North, so he and Slick's mom might be a pretty spicy hook-up.


I think the major problem in parenting is moms and dads who are too busy living their own lives to actually parent. That an unwillingness to lay down some rules for fear of little Timmy hating them for a few weeks.

Exactly. Parents see their kids so rarely that whenever they have time together, they don't want any conflict. My parents are like that now with my kids as grandparents. They spoil the heck out everyone because they only want to have fun with them. I get into it all the time with my parents because I have to deal with the fallout for a few days after a day spent out with the grandparents.

[JEDIpartner]

Not a bad way to handle it either. A five year old needs to understand that there's nothing magical or special about beer or wine, or more importantly, that drinking alcohol doesn't make a person special. Having a sip with adults in a situation where alcohol is appropriately being consumed is probably a very good idea, as it helps a child get a good handle on what can be a really nice human tradition (drinking, wining and dining, etc.). Pounding beers in front of your kids while preaching "You can't have any, this is a special drink for daddies" probably isn't the best way to go about it. If you make something off limits, but never take the time to explain why, your child is left to investigate on their own. Beer commercials fill in the blanks: Drinking beer makes you happy and likable!

Yep... this sort of thing led to a lot of other good faith and trust situations where I didn't have a curfew 'cos my parents and I were on the level with each other. They knew all of my friends and knew where I was going. If I was going to be late or stay overnight at a friend's house, they just asked me to call home, which I always did. I was a good kid.

[DarthQuack]

Anyone have the Tox Box?

[figrin bran]

my parents let me try a sip of champagne at a relative's wedding when i was little and it must've worked because i've never been that much of a drinker and i never felt the need to do any underage drinking.

[El Chuxter]

I apparently chugged a few beers once at the age of two or three. And then my mom found out what had happened, and no one drank beer from a cup around me again.

[Kidhuman]

I apparently chugged a few beers once at the age of two or three. And then my mom found out what had happened, and no one drank beer from a cup around me again.


Me, my wife and my parents went to applebees one day with the kids and we ordered Mudslides after the meal. Well, when we got up to leave, Jacob thinking it was just chocolate milkshakes started sipping the remnants of the glasses while we were putting out jackets on. He was 3 or 4 at the time. Well, when we got him in the car, he passed right out in his car seat.

[seanmcfripp]

My wife made the mistake of drinking a beer every so often in front of our girls, so when they were first starting to speak, every time they saw a beer bottle they'd say "mommy." Made us realize how perceptive they are, even at such a young age. Of course now when I ask for a beer, it's "Hey, can you go grab me a Mommy from the fridge?"