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Darth Instigator
08-04-2006, 06:05 PM
We were driving home from the Bronx today and the kids were watching The Empire Strikes Back in the minivan and my wife and I noticed yet another discrepancy, possibly. When Luke is leaving Degobah and Yoda and Obi-Wan are trying to convince him not to, Obi-Wan mentions how he doesn't want to lose him to the Dark Side like he lost his father and then Yoda says something to the effect that there is another. Referring to Leia probably, but wasn't Obi-Wan in the room with Padme when she gave birth and where they divied up the kids? Wouldn't he have known there was another?

Devo
08-04-2006, 06:28 PM
Maybe Obi-wan was just being dramatic. Or sexist. Seriously if I have to come up with some explanation it'd be along the lines that Obi-wan scarcely knows Leia - he knows of her but he doesn't know her. He didn't even get around to meeting her in ANH. And perhaps it took someone stronger in the force than him to actually detect her force sensitivity from across space. Although as a sidenote I think Obi-wan was a cooler jedi in the prequels than Yoda - afterall he was seen to defeat 3 foes to Yoda's 0 (Yoda had 2 fights and 2 draws)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
08-04-2006, 06:31 PM
Obi-Wan knew of Leia, but Yoda, I guess, was just reminding him, or saying that Leia could still hold some potential if Luke failed.

Darth Instigator
08-04-2006, 06:35 PM
yea but wouldn't Obi-wan assume that since there was a twin and she was from the father who was created by the midichlorians that she would possess and abnormally high amount herself, well you know what I mean. And doesn't she send R2 with a message to specifically find Obi-Wan, so she knows about him.

seanmcfripp
08-04-2006, 06:51 PM
None of the dialog from that scene suggests Obi-wan is unaware of Leia's identity. Obi-wan said "last hope," not "last Skywalker" or "last force sensitive type person." They'd been grooming Luke for this big confrontation, and the kid was about to put their big plans in jeopardy, so instead of letting Obi-wan bring the situation down with his usual pessimism, Yoda puts him in check by reminding him that they still have a plan B.

Just look at how the "twin sister" discussion plays out with Luke in Jedi. Obi-wan handles all the exposition with confidence, like he's definitely in the know. Doesn't sound at all like he's giving a second hand account of how she was hidden, like he'd just heard this all for the first time from Yoda, and now he's passing on gossip to Luke.

I'd be the first to point out goofy inconsistencies between the trilogies, but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them. I hear traffic sucks in the Bronx, so maybe less eavesdropping on ESB while driving the family around wouldn't be a bad idea. :thumbsup:

Darth Instigator
08-04-2006, 08:07 PM
relax yourself kid, I listen to it 4 or 5 times a trip so if you dont like what I point out and my point of view then peruse somewhere else. ok? :thumbsup:

Luuuuuuke
08-04-2006, 09:33 PM
I don't think it's a discrepancy per se. Like others have already said, Obi Wan was probably just so focused on Luke that he forgot about Leia. Bail Organa took Leia with him, but Obi Wan took Luke. And he kept an eye out on him. So he was hyperfocused on him. Yoda just reminded him like Mr. JabbaJohnL said.

I think if the prequels established anything, it's that Obi Wan had blind spots.

Qui-Long Gone
08-05-2006, 09:19 AM
Although as a sidenote I think Obi-wan was a cooler jedi in the prequels than Yoda - afterall he was seen to defeat 3 foes to Yoda's 0 (Yoda had 2 fights and 2 draws)

Actualy, Obi got his *** kicked by Jango (draw) and Dooku (twice)....Anakin saved him twice and Yoda once

Luuuuuuke
08-05-2006, 09:34 AM
Actualy, Obi got his *** kicked by Jango (draw) and Dooku (twice)....Anakin saved him twice and Yoda once
I think Dooku's fighting style was just the wrong style for Obi Wan. Yes, Obi Wan beat Darth Maul, Grievous and Anakin--but they all tended to fight in an aggressive, out of control style. He beat them in moment's of recklessness, when they all let their guard down or did something stupid. Against jedi types, Obi Wan seemed to be an expert of the Muhammad Ali rope-a-dope style of hanging in there and then WAMMO! delivering that miracle blow.

Dooku was extremely strong, but he also fought with control. He didn't really make dumb-arse mistakes, maybe because he was older and wiser. Also, Obi Wan never fought Dooku alone. Anakin was always there, and I have a nagging feeling that Anakin kind of overwhelmed Obi Wan's fighting style whenever they fought Dooku. He just didn't fight as well.

JimJamBonds
08-05-2006, 09:40 AM
Actualy, Obi got his *** kicked by Jango (draw)...

If it was a draw with Jango then I'd say he didn't really get his ### kicked... or if you do want to say that then Jango also got his ^^^ kicked by Obbers as well.

Darth Instigator
08-05-2006, 10:20 AM
he may have got his ***** kicked by jango but jango lost his head to Mace, lol

seanmcfripp
08-05-2006, 01:10 PM
relax yourself kid...

Kid? Sweet, it's like you're Han Solo and I'm Luke Skywalker. I want everyone here to call me kid from now on, in your best Han Solo voice of course. Be sure to follow it up with "Don't get cocky!"


...I listen to it 4 or 5 times a trip...

Let's see, 2.17 hours, times 4 or 5, carry the 2...jeezus, that's like 10 hours in the car! Bloomburg needs to fix some roads.


...so if you dont like what I point out and my point of view then peruse somewhere else. ok?

So you only want folks to respond to "what you point out" or "your point of view" if they like said point or point of view? Good luck with that, especially around here. I'm a quick skimmer (not peruser), so help me out and put a disclaimer in the titles of you threads.

TheDarthVader
08-05-2006, 03:10 PM
Maybe Yoda is referring to Vader? Vader could have killed Luke in ESB, but he couldn't do it.

Kidhuman
08-05-2006, 04:23 PM
Sean, D.I......go to your rooms, ...oh sorry. Thats enough, let it drop its over and done with shake hands and be good boys.

Qui-Long Gone
08-05-2006, 04:35 PM
he may have got his ***** kicked by jango but jango lost his head to Mace, lol

Who was blind-sided by Anakin.....who got his *** kicked by Obi-Wan...lol

Yoda vs Dooku = Draw

Yoda vs Palpatine = Draw

Obi-Wan vs Dooku part 1 (Anakin knocked out) = Dooku

Obi-Wan/Anakin vs Dooku part 2 = Dooku over Obi-Wan, Anakin over Dooku

Obi-Wan vs Maul = Obi-Wan barely

Obi-Wan vs Jango = Draw

Jango vs Mace = Mace

Obi-Wan vs Anakin part 1 = Obi-Wan

Obi-Wan vs Vader part 2 = Obi-Wan (who 'threw the fight')
Mace vs Palpatine = aledged steroid sith abuse


*According to these stats, Obi-Wan is no more 'the man' than anyone else....

Qui-Long Gone
08-05-2006, 04:37 PM
Also, Obi Wan never fought Dooku alone. Anakin was always there, and I have a nagging feeling that Anakin kind of overwhelmed Obi Wan's fighting style whenever they fought Dooku. He just didn't fight as well.

Except for the part where Anakin was knocked out and they fought alone and Obi Wan got his *** kicked....only to be saved at the last minute by Anakin, only to be saved at the last minute by Yoda....during the rematch Obi Wan faired just as poorly but this time Anakin got the best of Dooku...

Luuuuuuke
08-06-2006, 12:49 AM
I still think it's a case of styles making fights. I think Mike Tyson would have absolutely killed Joe Frazier, who split two fights with Muhammad Ali. But Ali would have killed Tyson.

Dooku did beat Obi Wan twice. Then again, Obi Wan was still a relatively young Jedi--AND, Obi Wan was trained by Qui Gon, who was trained by Dooku. It's possible Dooku simply had better insights into Obi Wan's fighting style because of such a lineage.

Of course, Anakin was trained by Obi Wan, but Anakin was clearly his own Jedi on many levels. He was more independent, and you could argue that his fighting style deviated so much from that of his master--Obi Wan--that it threw Dooku off more.

I certainly wouldn't be down on Obi Wan. When elite Jedis take turns fighting each other, round robbin, there's bound to be losers among these winners.

The 'Xir
08-06-2006, 01:04 AM
We were driving home from the Bronx today and the kids were watching The Empire Strikes Back in the minivan and my wife and I noticed yet another discrepancy, possibly. When Luke is leaving Degobah and Yoda and Obi-Wan are trying to convince him not to, Obi-Wan mentions how he doesn't want to lose him to the Dark Side like he lost his father and then Yoda says something to the effect that there is another. Referring to Leia probably, but wasn't Obi-Wan in the room with Padme when she gave birth and where they divied up the kids? Wouldn't he have known there was another?

Good Point! And just another reason for me to hate Lucas and what he's done to our story and my childhood memories! Especially when you take into consideration Ben's other line in ROTJ, "The Emperor knew AS I DID, if Anakin were to have any offspring THEY'D be a threat to him, that's why your sister remains safely anonymous."

Episodes II & III blow chocolate salty balls, and just because of this lack of thought and preperation by Lucas and his inability to tie all the loose ends up and actually make a once great story, even greater. As Cool as they are to look at and for a couple scenes that are the exceptions, EpII and III are just plain rubbish and have totally destroyed the wonderful story that could have and should have been! :cry:

DarkArtist
08-06-2006, 07:59 AM
also you have to remember that Empire was written twenty plus years before Sith. Also in the beginning of Empire Obi Wan tells Luke to train with the Jedi Master who taught him. Qui Gon is dead, true Yoda may have taught him as well but I would think that Qui Gon would be the jedi master he trained with. I mean while the prequel tried to try up loose ends with the OT it still has many gaps that are left unanswered.

Devo
08-06-2006, 02:28 PM
Since this thread has veered off topic...well I'll continue down that course.

Why didn't both Yoda and Obi-wan take on Palpatine together? Then, assuming they won, both go after Anakin afterwards? We know jedi aren't above ganging up on their enemies. Since so much was at stake why did they make exception here? Its not as though Anakin was doing anything immediately threatening on Mustufar that they needed to split up so as to stop him as soon as possible.

pbarnard
08-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Since this thread has veered off topic...well I'll continue down that course.

Why didn't both Yoda and Obi-wan take on Palpatine together? Then, assuming they won, both go after Anakin afterwards? We know jedi aren't above ganging up on their enemies. Since so much was at stake why did they make exception here? Its not as though Anakin was doing anything immediately threatening on Mustufar that they needed to split up so as to stop him as soon as possible.

Because they wanted to decapitate the Empire immediately. Anakin and Obi-Wan were rather even in strength, but obviously given some time Anakin would surpass him (and probably Yoda). Some if it may have been pride blinding Yoda. All of those taunts that Palpy threw at him in his office suddenly got his goat. Also, it was entirely possible that multipe confrontations would not work. They obviously knew or felt what happened to Mace and the others. So if they were to both die, or at least one die, they held to the hope that the other could succeed. It wasn't until afterwards that they decided to forge Luke as a weapon and use Leia as a failsafe back up, but there are hints that each would do so no matter what. Also, they did think that Obi-Wan had defeated Anakin. It wasn't until the events in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader (EU haters hush for a moment) that Obi-wan discovers that Vader survived and is now more machine than man.

Kidhuman
08-06-2006, 06:33 PM
Devo, Palps just gone done slaughtering 4 Jedi and if they split up and one fails, at least the other could suceed.

Darth Instigator
08-06-2006, 11:34 PM
also you have to remember that Empire was written twenty plus years before Sith. Also in the beginning of Empire Obi Wan tells Luke to train with the Jedi Master who taught him. Qui Gon is dead, true Yoda may have taught him as well but I would think that Qui Gon would be the jedi master he trained with. I mean while the prequel tried to try up loose ends with the OT it still has many gaps that are left unanswered.
I mentioned this too in a previous thread that inspired this title here

Devo
08-07-2006, 11:40 AM
Ah! Excellent points. Yes I'll accept those rationale.

darthvyn
08-08-2006, 12:32 PM
Devo, Palps just gone done slaughtering 4 Jedi and if they split up and one fails, at least the other could suceed.

not only that, but it's the element of surprise. no doubt, the only two sith in the galaxy have a strong connection - and can feel when the other is in trouble/hurt/dying/dead. if they attacked one, the other would know

a: some jedi had survived the culling,

and

b: they were trying to defeat one, and would soon be after the other.

their separation would have given the one that wasn't attacked enough time to gather some forces to protect them. the sneak attack was the only answer, although it didn't work out in the end...