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Qui-Long Gone
08-12-2006, 10:59 PM
Here's a question that's really been bugging me from AOTC lately....Anakin, Obi and Padme are chasing Dooku and Padme gets nocked out of the ship causing Anakin to freak out and demand the ship turn 'round.....you know the scene...

Obi threatens Anakin with expullsion from the Jedi order....why?

***What really bugs me is this: I take it Obi threatens him because he doesn't want to loose a chance to get Dooku before war really breaks out, even if that means leaving your pals behind....but a few moments later Yoda is caught in the same scenario: save friends and let Dooku escape or 'see it through.' Of course Yoda saves Obi and Anakin letting us have ROTS and the subsequent Original Trilogy....

Why was Anakin's plea so heinous and Yoda's choice unquestioned? Isn't the philosophy of a Jedi to 'let go' of those around you....after all, Yoda *****es Luke out for wanting to save Han in EPSB.....yet when Anakin calls for help he's bucked back into line (we can't assume Obi know Padme survived the fall can we?)....

???????

JediTricks
08-13-2006, 12:45 AM
Hmm, that's an interesting point. I don't really have an answer, but it does feel like if I did it'd be an extension of this: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=31934

If that were part of my answer, then I guess I'd also say "Obi-Wan perhaps was drawing a distinction between fellow Jedi and non-Jedi"

... but then I'd point out that it was Anakin's assigned task to PROTECT Padme at all costs and nothing else, a job given by the Jedi Council.

2-1B
08-13-2006, 12:50 AM
It's because Yoda is bipolar.

El Chuxter
08-13-2006, 09:54 AM
Normally, such an infraction would call for in-Order detention, or maybe a 5-day suspension if Yoda was in a crappy mood, but Anakin had a history of blowing up cherry bombs in the lavatory and trying to look up Luminara's robes, so this would've been a "final straw."

Rocketboy
08-13-2006, 05:20 PM
Yoda is the boss. He can do whatever he wants.

Darth Instigator
08-13-2006, 05:41 PM
Do as I say not as I do

JediTricks
08-13-2006, 08:08 PM
As I say, you will do; as I do, you will not!

Darth Instigator
08-13-2006, 08:28 PM
lol, nice....

Qui-Long Gone
08-13-2006, 09:26 PM
I thought it was "Do or do not....I really don't give a damn Luke...."

Blue2th
08-13-2006, 09:27 PM
Well what do you think Padme would do? She would do her doody.:squareeye

Devo
08-14-2006, 01:36 PM
What I want to know is why Yoda couldn't do both. Well firstly why didn't he simply pull Obers and Anakin out of the way rather than stopping the fall of that pillar which, despite his insistence on size mattering not, clearly took some effort on his part. But since he tried doing it the hard way why didn't he use that pillar to try to cripple Dooku's ship or try anything to stop Dooku taking off?

JediTricks
08-14-2006, 03:54 PM
Yoda could have moved his friends, but Dooku could just fling the debris at them again. Still, Yoda's response doesn't fit his lofty claims of Jedi detachment. Then again, I think Lucas really didn't know what to do with Yoda, he made Yoda so ridiculously over the top with that fighting that he had no idea how to make the battle end so he copped out - he did the same thing in ROTS with Yoda vs Palps, they fight and fight and go crazy and match each other pretty well, then Yoda takes a small tumble and calls it a day.

Qui-Long Gone
08-14-2006, 07:30 PM
Yoda could have moved his friends, but Dooku could just fling the debris at them again. Still, Yoda's response doesn't fit his lofty claims of Jedi detachment. Then again, I think Lucas really didn't know what to do with Yoda, he made Yoda so ridiculously over the top with that fighting that he had no idea how to make the battle end so he copped out - he did the same thing in ROTS with Yoda vs Palps, they fight and fight and go crazy and match each other pretty well, then Yoda takes a small tumble and calls it a day.


JT, you've probably made the most accurate assessment of the little green friend....a character poorly executed in the new trilogy, yet one of the most engaging characters from the original 3 (well 2 technically....)

Blue2th
08-14-2006, 07:50 PM
Yoda was just trying to save his Generals to fight another day? He could have pulled Obi-Wan and Anakin away as has been said. Though I can't remember any Jedi pulling anything with the force except for a lightsaber. Maybe he just made that choice of two choices........As far as him leaving the fight with the Emperor, maybe he knew (sensed) the Shock Troopers were coming, that he would be outnumbered and overpowered with Palpatine also and would fail anyways. I'm just trying to stick up for CGI Yoda now! :D

seanmcfripp
08-14-2006, 09:27 PM
It's because Yoda is bipolar.

Doesn't work unless you get JimJam to yell it out in a crowd of people.

Hater.

JimJamBonds
08-14-2006, 10:23 PM
Doesn't work unless you get JimJam to yell it out in a crowd of people.

Consider it done the next time we go to a movie together.

2-1B
08-14-2006, 10:45 PM
You bet. :) In fact, next time we're at a Marcus Cinema and they play that intro compilation, it should be said during the snippet of Yoda from AOTC.

I'd say this will be accomplished sometime between the periods of Snakes on a Place and For Your Consideration. Somewhere between those months. lol lol lol

darthvyn
08-15-2006, 07:40 AM
Normally, such an infraction would call for in-Order detention, or maybe a 5-day suspension if Yoda was in a crappy mood, but Anakin had a history of blowing up cherry bombs in the lavatory and trying to look up Luminara's robes, so this would've been a "final straw."

either way it's going on his permanent holocron...

basically, it's all judgement calls - was it a better judgement to continue the pursuit of dooku when padme fell? was it a better judgement to let dooku go to save two jedi (when that was really the only option, anyway)?

JimJamBonds
08-15-2006, 09:21 AM
You bet. :) In fact, next time we're at a Marcus Cinema and they play that intro compilation, it should be said during the snippet of Yoda from AOTC.

I'd say this will be accomplished sometime between the periods of Snakes on a Place and For Your Consideration. Somewhere between those months. lol lol lol

Also, next time we are in a K Mart parking lot I'll yell "This is f****** awesome!" so then all of my lines will be covered.

Qui-Long Gone
08-15-2006, 10:24 AM
either way it's going on his permanent holocron...

basically, it's all judgement calls - was it a better judgement to continue the pursuit of dooku when padme fell? was it a better judgement to let dooku go to save two jedi (when that was really the only option, anyway)?

Depends on your judgment: stopping the war or sacrificing your friends for all they've fought for (to paraphrase Yoda inESB)....

Also, wasn't saving Padme the only option in the same way saving two Jedi was? No one except maybe Yoda knew Obi and Anakin were in pursuit of Dooku so how could Padme expect to be rescued assuming she survived her fall?


**on an unrelated note who, if any, have been expelled from the Jedi Order? Dooku? Vos?

El Chuxter
08-15-2006, 10:32 AM
No one that I know of. I'm running through what I can think of of the list (despite what the AOTC cut scenes indicate, far more than 20), and everyone I know of left of their own accord. Even Depa didn't technically get kicked out, despite going wacko and killing a bunch of people.

The interesting question: is Yoda's choosing to allow Dooku to escape contradictory to his statement in ESB: "If you honor what they fight for, yes" (meaning allow Han and Leia to die). Or is his later knowing the consequences of allowing Dooku to escape the reason he says that to Luke?

Qui-Long Gone
08-15-2006, 10:37 AM
The interesting question: is Yoda's choosing to allow Dooku to escape contradictory to his statement in ESB: "If you honor what they fight for, yes" (meaning allow Han and Leia to die). Or is his later knowing the consequences of allowing Dooku to escape the reason he says that to Luke?

Great observation El....

seanmcfripp
08-15-2006, 12:46 PM
"This is f****** awesome!"

Is that one of Rick "F-bomb" McCullum's lines? :D

JediTricks
08-15-2006, 03:02 PM
Yoda was just trying to save his Generals to fight another day? If Yoda hadn't stopped to save his friends, there might not have been fighting another day, his choice to save his 2 fellow Jedi cost the galaxy greatly.


He could have pulled Obi-Wan and Anakin away as has been said. Though I can't remember any Jedi pulling anything with the force except for a lightsaber. Maybe he just made that choice of two choices. Dooku just pulled that column down, Yoda lifts an X-wing, Luke lifts 3PO, lots of Jedi pushed battle droids and Geonosians around - Yoda could have very quickly pushed Obi-Wan and Anakin out of the way (that would have been cooler, the column is coming down and Yoda flings his pals across the room to relative safety while he continues the fight with Dooku).

Yoda's choice was to stop Dooku or save his friends, the Jedi philosophy of personal detachment said duty was more important but Yoda breaks this rule he spews throughout the saga anyway.


As far as him leaving the fight with the Emperor, maybe he knew (sensed) the Shock Troopers were coming, that he would be outnumbered and overpowered with Palpatine also and would fail anyways. I'm just trying to stick up for CGI Yoda now! :DIf they're gonna do that sort of thing, the movie needs to express it, but it didn't so Yoda just walked away. But numerical Yoda appreciates your defense, even if it is too sentimental and you should just let him go. ;)



basically, it's all judgement calls - was it a better judgement to continue the pursuit of dooku when padme fell? was it a better judgement to let dooku go to save two jedi (when that was really the only option, anyway)?That's why the Jedi have an ingrained philosophy of personal detachment, so that when a judgement call like that comes up, they will perform their duty to the greater good rather than sacrificing that good to save friends - Yoda says this in both trilogies. Anakin was not wrong to want to go after Padme on the basis that it was his sworn duty to keep her safe, a job given to him by the Jedi Council, his motivations for doing so weren't pure but he wasn't wrong either. However, Yoda had 2 options: continue the battle with Dooku and keep him from leaving until help arrived so they could stop him before the war began, or save Ani & Obi-Wan, this is exactly why Dooku brought that column down, he knew he needed Yoda to make that choice and if Yoda chose his friends then it'd be enough of a distraction to make a getaway.



The interesting question: is Yoda's choosing to allow Dooku to escape contradictory to his statement in ESB: "If you honor what they fight for, yes" (meaning allow Han and Leia to die). Or is his later knowing the consequences of allowing Dooku to escape the reason he says that to Luke?I argue that it's a contradiction, Yoda and the Jedi Council are clear on the issue of emotional detachment in TPM which is before he learns any lesson, and his opinion is unchanged in ROTS when Anakin comes to him about fearing Padme's death (which is odd advice in this context given that Yoda saved Anakin in the same vein that he tells Anakin *not* to do - talk about a contradictory message!).

Aragornsfate
08-15-2006, 03:52 PM
Yoda saw that Anakin had lost an arm.
Obes was also wounded pretty bad.
If the two were not able to move themselves, I think that Yoda using the force to move them would have done more physical damage than good.

But, he should have thrown that column at the Sailor.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-15-2006, 07:18 PM
I think it's all a bit more simple. Padmé wasn't really in any danger after she fell out. Obi-Wan and Anakin were in immediate danger and would have been killed if Yoda had not acted. As far as what Yoda tells Luke in ESB, it wasn't just about saving Han and Leia. Yoda and Ben felt that if Luke went, he would not be able to help them anyway, and that Vader might kill him or turn him to the Dark Side. Luke went, was beaten and learned the truth about Darth Vader, and ended up needing to be rescued by Han and Leia.

2-1B
08-15-2006, 10:43 PM
MSP summed it up nicely. :thumbsup:

Even though I agree Yoda is bipolar :D , I think it's unfair to Charlotte's little green friend to cite ESB's dialogue against this AOTC bit for the reasons MSP said. Yoda didn't have a problem with Luke going to help his friends, he had a problem with Luke taking the bait and possibly turning Sith. Luke goes after his friend in ROTJ with success and it's a GOOD thing he did it, even though he risked his own life in going. But he was ready and prepared to do it.

Yoda must feel like a sucker though for how Dooku escaped and his sorrow at the end of AOTC is reflective of that, I believe. :)

Blue2th
08-16-2006, 12:06 AM
A powerful Jedi was he, Yoda, But he was also 700+ years old by the time of AOTC and died a little past 800. His age may have effected his physical, force and decision making abilities.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-16-2006, 12:17 AM
A powerful Jedi was he, Yoda, But he was also 700+ years old by the time of AOTC and died a little past 800. His age may have effected his physical, force and decision making abilities.
Actually, he was closer to 900, thus making him even goofier.

2-1B
08-16-2006, 09:42 AM
Is that one of Rick "F-bomb" McCullum's lines? :D

Oh yeah, the greatest of many great moments on the Bonus Features of TPM Disc2. :)

JediTricks
08-16-2006, 05:01 PM
Yoda saw that Anakin had lost an arm.
Obes was also wounded pretty bad.
If the two were not able to move themselves, I think that Yoda using the force to move them would have done more physical damage than good.That should have been an acceptable risk considering the price that was to be paid for Yoda's choice. Yoda knew that they'd both sacrifice their lives if they had to to stop Dooku and this war from continuing.



I think it's all a bit more simple. Padmé wasn't really in any danger after she fell out. Obi-Wan and Anakin were in immediate danger and would have been killed if Yoda had not acted.But Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't know she wasn't in danger, the fall could have (really it should have) seriously injured her and her position could have been overrun by enemy soldiers. Plus, Anakin's concern for her wellbeing is part of what is driving him to the Dark Side, that same concern on Yoda's part would be the same.


As far as what Yoda tells Luke in ESB, it wasn't just about saving Han and Leia. Yoda and Ben felt that if Luke went, he would not be able to help them anyway, and that Vader might kill him or turn him to the Dark Side. Luke went, was beaten and learned the truth about Darth Vader, and ended up needing to be rescued by Han and Leia.Actually, Yoda says that Luke could be able to help them, but that doing so would destroy all that they fought for - the same could be said for Yoda's choice, Yoda could choose to save his friends but by doing so would sacrifice stopping Dooku's civil war at its inception.


I think it's unfair to Charlotte's little green friend to cite ESB's dialogue against this AOTC bit for the reasons MSP said. Yoda didn't have a problem with Luke going to help his friends, he had a problem with Luke taking the bait and possibly turning Sith. Luke goes after his friend in ROTJ with success and it's a GOOD thing he did it, even though he risked his own life in going. But he was ready and prepared to do it.What about Yoda's TPM comments about attachments or his ROTS comments about letting Padme die? You and MSP act as if if Yoda's choice had no serious consequences, Yoda knew what was at stake if Dooku escaped - it was very grave.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-16-2006, 06:17 PM
What about Yoda's TPM comments about attachments or his ROTS comments about letting Padme die? You and MSP act as if if Yoda's choice had no serious consequences, Yoda knew what was at stake if Dooku escaped - it was very grave.I think Yoda was just warning Anakin about how fear of loss leads to the dark side. He's telling Anakin how to prepare himself for dealing with loss. That doesn't mean you can't try and help someone. You just need to be mindful of what you are doing and why you are doing it.

Back to the Yoda/Dooku duel. I don't think things there were anywhere near as dire as they were in ESB. In AOTC, war was just beginning. If Dooku gets away, there is still a chance to get him again. If Luke is killed or turned to the dark side, then the rebellion could be finished.

Another thing to consider is that if Anakin is the chosen one, then it would be important to keep him alive.

JediTricks
08-17-2006, 01:34 PM
I think Yoda was just warning Anakin about how fear of loss leads to the dark side. He's telling Anakin how to prepare himself for dealing with loss. That doesn't mean you can't try and help someone. You just need to be mindful of what you are doing and why you are doing it.Yoda still doesn't heed what he preaches:

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.
Yoda's attachments to his pals lets Dooku escape, he knew they were willing to risk their lives to stop Dooku but he still chose to save them instead of stopping Dooku, his attachments to them led to the escape of Dooku and the start of a deadly war.


Back to the Yoda/Dooku duel. I don't think things there were anywhere near as dire as they were in ESB. In AOTC, war was just beginning. If Dooku gets away, there is still a chance to get him again. If Luke is killed or turned to the dark side, then the rebellion could be finished.Yoda speaks of "another" in ESB, so he doesn't see Luke as their last hope there. In AOTC, Yoda knows if Dooku escapes, millions could die in that war, the only difference is that to the story those millions are faceless nobodies.


Another thing to consider is that if Anakin is the chosen one, then it would be important to keep him alive.Yoda didn't even want Anakin to be trained in the first place, and objected to it even after the council allowed it.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-17-2006, 07:11 PM
I guess I see the events as being different. Luke going off to help Leia and Han is premeditated and rooted in his impatience. Yoda helping Anakin and Obi-Wan is a snap decision in the middle of a fight. Their fate was pretty certain if he did not act. The fate of Han and Leia was uncertain. Dooku's escape and the extent of the Clone Wars was uncertain at that point. If Luke is killed or turned to the Dark Side, the Empire could crush the rebels once and for all. If Luke is unsuccessful, Leia could be lost as well so she wouldn't be an option to train either.

Qui-Long Gone
08-18-2006, 08:33 AM
These are interesting points and make me wonder another question....Yoda and Kenobi seemed more bent on Luke facing Vader to bring down the Empire than him facing the Emperor, as if the fall of Vader=fall of Empire.....note what Yoda says about Luke needing a force as his ally to bring down "Vader and his Emperor," as if to suggest the Emperor was actually Vader's pawn....Neither Yoda nor Kenobi agreed with Luke that Anakin had any good left in him, so clearly the confrentation was ment to be to the death, i.e. kill Vader = end the Empire....

So why was the twins facing Vader the key to ending the Empire when Sideous was clearly in control? Even after he defeated Vader, esentially killing him in the Emperor's mind, Luke was no match for the Emperor....

Darth Instigator
08-18-2006, 08:50 AM
I just thought of this and I hope this wasn't already pointed out otherwise its just redundant but maybe they figured if anakin was the strongest jedi of all of them and the fact that he was overwhelmed with attachments especially the loss of his mother that allowing him to become so close of an ally with the Emperor would put the only person possible to beat the Emperor right next to him in a position of trust, then when Luke was old enough to train him and reveal who he was knowing that Vader would be sensitive to the possible loss of family again, that he would step up and defend his son where he couldn't do it for his mother. Just a SWAG (Scientific Wild ***** Guess), I am not as skilled in this stuff as you guys but I listen.

COMMANDERCODY2795
08-18-2006, 11:04 AM
[quote=Qui-Long Gone;492553]
No one except maybe Yoda knew Obi and Anakin were in pursuit of Dooku so how could Padme expect to be rescued assuming she survived her fall?[/quote/]

Because a Clone Trooper fell out with her if you pay attention. plus how did the Clone who came up to her get there? plus he called for a ship.

2-1B
08-18-2006, 11:08 AM
Luke was "no match" for the Emperor because he threw aside his lightsaber and chose to die...which was a good move since it tugged on ol' Anners' heartstrings. :thumbsup:

Besides, it doesn't matter because Lando and Nien F***ing Nunb were on the way to blow up the joint anyway. lol

COMMANDERCODY2795
08-18-2006, 11:14 AM
to qoute someone on sw.com message boards:

Palpatine: Exacute a number 5 with a coke.
Cody: you want Fries with that?
Palps:uuummm.....sure.
Cody: it shall be done my lord.

Blue2th
08-18-2006, 05:01 PM
These are interesting points and make me wonder another question....Yoda and Kenobi seemed more bent on Luke facing Vader to bring down the Empire than him facing the Emperor, as if the fall of Vader=fall of Empire.....note what Yoda says about Luke needing a force as his ally to bring down "Vader and his Emperor," as if to suggest the Emperor was actually Vader's pawn....Neither Yoda nor Kenobi agreed with Luke that Anakin had any good left in him, so clearly the confrentation was ment to be to the death, i.e. kill Vader = end the Empire....

So why was the twins facing Vader the key to ending the Empire when Sideous was clearly in control? Even after he defeated Vader, esentially killing him in the Emperor's mind, Luke was no match for the Emperor....
Yoda and Obi-Wan knew about the Prophecy. The one who would bring balance to the force. "A prophecy misread" Yoda thought, but turned out to be true after all. They thought that Luke would bring the Emperor down. Which in a way he did by influencing his father Vader. Didn't the Emperor also forsee that a Skywalker would kill him? And perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan knew this also somehow?

COMMANDERCODY2795
08-19-2006, 11:08 AM
well, im thinking yoda didn't know. because from attack of the clones onward he darkside clouded the force so they couldn't forsee anything. maybe obi wan knew once he was dead, because he was one iwth the currents of the force.

Qui-Long Gone
08-19-2006, 11:53 AM
[quote=Qui-Long Gone;492553]
No one except maybe Yoda knew Obi and Anakin were in pursuit of Dooku so how could Padme expect to be rescued assuming she survived her fall?[/quote/]

Because a Clone Trooper fell out with her if you pay attention. plus how did the Clone who came up to her get there? plus he called for a ship.

My point was probably obscured by my poor choice of wording, as pointed above....Anakin and Obi didn't know she survived the fall and that Clone was the same that fell out with her....so at the moment Anakin didn't know she had survived until she came to him after he lost his arm.....My main point being: why was Obi o.k. with pursuing Dooku not knowing Padme's immediate status when Yoda, with the same 'immediate' decision, saves the Jedi over ending Dooku....

The 'Xir
08-22-2006, 10:52 PM
It's because Yoda is bipolar.


No! It's 'cause Lucas is a frigin Freak! and Bi-Polar on top of that as well!


All I can really offer is that, Ben had more insight on Anakins' feelings towards Padme, and knew it was based in selfish needs, along with breaking the Jedi Code of Attachment. Where as Yoda obviously has no emotional attachment to either Ben or Anakin, and is making more of a tactical decision, especially seeing as how many Jedi have already been killed. Despite clouded perception Yoda may have also understood that Dooku was not the real threat behind the resurgence of the darkside,that he was just a pawn("joined the darkside Dooku has, creating lies and mistrust are his ways now."), and he could sacrafice the capture of Dooku, to save Ben and Ani so that he would have as many Jedi to handle the oncomming threat. In the end, its probably just what it is, a snap decision in the heat of battle. :yes:

The real question is here you have three Jedi standing in a HANGAR with Dooku on the run, and only one ship standing by! So why didn't any of them try to disable the only ship Dooku has to get away? Especially seeing as how all the Trade Feds have taking their ships into space, and even if Dooku defeats them, he cant get off planet! Speaking of tactical decisions! Doesnt look like we're dealing with any real geniuses here. :rolleyes: