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View Full Version : Do you have any fears about Episode II: Attack of the Clones?



Tycho
01-28-2002, 09:14 AM
We've seen 3 trailers and a lot of behind-the-scenes footage.

Do you have any fears about Episode II: Attack of the Clones?

browndroid
01-28-2002, 09:42 AM
im kinda worried, i mean ep1 had its lame parts so im guessing ep2 willl also.

Starfig873
01-28-2002, 10:55 AM
I still think Ep.I was a fun and great movie. I don't think I'll have a problem with Ep.II

tk006
01-28-2002, 11:11 AM
I'm sure this movie will be enjoyable but I hope Lucas restrains himself with those cute cuddly obnoxious creatures! This whole mess started with those damned Ewoks!
Senator Jar-Jar?! ....I'm feeling sick already! How about carbon freeze Jar-Jar?

2-1B
01-28-2002, 11:26 AM
Overall, I think it will be a good movie, but my biggest concerns are

1) Yoda fighting
2) Massive arena battle - I hope it isn't too bland and cheesy

Lord Tenebrous
01-28-2002, 11:33 AM
My primary concern is how well Episode II will engage the audience. Episode I was a very passive movie, between the special effects and the liquidity of the plot. Episode II is shaping up to have even more effects and liquidity. Which means we'll probably be even more apathetic to the story. But I hope I'm wrong.

LusiferSam
01-28-2002, 12:21 PM
I?m really looking forward to ep2. In any film there are parts that don?t work as well as others parts. I don?t think ep1 was overly fraught with problems, so ep2 should be either. And am I the only person over the age of 10 who is not bothered by Jar Jar?

bigbarada
01-28-2002, 12:41 PM
I liked Jar Jar and I'll be 29 on May 16th.

From what I've seen and read, my main concern is that Lucas will try to cram too much into one film. Some of the action in TPM went by so fast that I had trouble caring what happened to the characters. If Ep2 is just a series of action sequences strung together by a shaky plot, then I fear the worst for Ep3.

Casual George
01-28-2002, 01:03 PM
You ain't seen nothing yet. Mark my words these next two films are going to blow your mind through the back of the theatre walls!

JetsAndHeels
01-28-2002, 01:13 PM
I personally can't wait for EP2. I am literally counting the days until I can get in there and see it!! From reading the spoilers and seeing the trailers, this movie is going to make people forget about EP1. Now the story is set up, and we can get on with business in this film. Only 108 days, folks.

rogue_12
01-28-2002, 07:27 PM
all ihave to say is stop whining like a bunch of school girls with sraped knees! if you are a star wars fan then ep ii will be alright! just think only 4 years 'til the boxed set!!!

bigbarada
01-28-2002, 08:30 PM
I'm trying to lull myself into a state of casual disinterest for EP2. This way my expectations will be as neutral as possible, not too hopeful so I won't be let down and not too negative that I overlook the cool stuff.

Turbowars
01-28-2002, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Casual George
You ain't seen nothing yet. Mark my words these next two films are going to blow your mind through the back of the theatre walls! I sure the hell hope so!! E1 was very disappointing. Carbon freezing JarJar would be a great idea!! One of my biggest concerns is how Lucus plans on doing the transition from the highly aerodynamic ships to the blockly ships that we know and love from E4,5,and 6. Lucus is a great guy so I hope he give us a great movie!!

JediTricks
01-28-2002, 08:51 PM
I have a few concerns, but nothing earth shaking - unlike my negative feelings for Ep 1 before it came out. The Yoda thing does have me uneasy, and I'm not sold on Hayden's acting, those 2 spring right to my mind.

One thing that worries me that isn't about the film itself though is this need for some folks to spout the party line as if they were Rick McCallum himself. It seems like some are adamantly furious about anybody who doesn't have 110% pure blind faith in Lucas and this movie. I'd rather be cautiously hopeful but expect less and be pleasantly surprised than be told I'm "not a fan" and my "attitude is too negative" by folks who know nothing more about the film than the rest of us.

stillakid
01-28-2002, 09:04 PM
This poll seems like an invitation for a rumble. ;)

I'm with JT on this (as usual). As a stand alone movie, I remain cautiously optimistic. As another piece of the prequel puzzle, it'll always be less than it could have been because of the pathetic foundation laid down by Episode I.

If I have any huge concerns at this point, one would be that Episode II appears to be more like a soap-opera than any kind of science-fiction or action or adventure movie that we all enjoy so much. Maybe the Danielle Steele audience will get into it this time.

TK421
01-28-2002, 09:39 PM
I am no excited at all.. It seems to me that Mr.Lucas should have stopped at ROTJ or continue after that movie... Just a thought.
Classic Trilogy all the way!!!;)

Wolfwood319
01-29-2002, 01:29 AM
I just can't get myself into the whole "prequel" era. I have yet to see a character that I really like, and I think the special effects nowadays take too much away from the movie.

I look forward to seeing the movie, but it isn't my life's purpose at this point. There's too much of a difference between OT and what I've seen/read about the prequels, it almost seems like two different sagas in my mind.

I'm just worried that too many Special effects will over shadow the movie, as with most other sci-fi films released now, like E1. If I want to watch a cgi cartoon, I'll watch toy story. That's my biggest concern.

SithDroid
01-29-2002, 01:58 AM
I'm not too hyped to see it either. EP I was a bit of a let down and I just don't know about EP II. I'll go see it, but only after seeing Spiderman a couple of times. That is the movie that I'm looking forward to the most.

Dryanta
01-29-2002, 07:21 AM
I am looking foward to the movie.I also learned a long time ago to accept certain "Cute" characters as part of an attempt to appeal to a very broad audience.I really don't understand the harsh words concerning EP1.I can stand ewoks and even JarJAr Binks but the inclusion of Boba Fett into everything is a real stretch for me.Where's Han as a Boy.Chewie's 200 years old and a major Character in the OT (unlike scream like a girl Fett) where is he?At least a cameo, come on!! Maybe it's because I remember a world without VCRs.When We saw the OT it was once and wait years for the next one.I guess that mindset stuck because I still very much look foward to AOTC. Sorry Fett fans

stillakid
01-29-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Dryanta
I am looking foward to the movie.I also learned a long time ago to accept certain "Cute" characters as part of an attempt to appeal to a very broad audience.I really don't understand the harsh words concerning EP1.I can stand ewoks and even JarJAr Binks but the inclusion of Boba Fett into everything is a real stretch for me.Where's Han as a Boy.Chewie's 200 years old and a major Character in the OT (unlike scream like a girl Fett) where is he?At least a cameo, come on!! Maybe it's because I remember a world without VCRs.When We saw the OT it was once and wait years for the next one.I guess that mindset stuck because I still very much look foward to AOTC. Sorry Fett fans


Don't feel alone. I think that the inclusion of the Fett Family is ridiculous and is nothing more than an attempt to appeal to fan's, who fell in love with a B character, sense of nostalgia. That whole storyline is a huge negative for me. The understanding in the '80's was that these guys called Mandalorian's or something, were a band of bad guys who helped wipe out the Jedi. Years later, a renegade bounty hunter used PIECES of the Mandalorian's armor to construct his own bad a s s uniform. Now it's nothing more than a hand-me down complete go-to-work costume along with dear ol' dad's hand-me-down spaceship. Gimme a break.

Dryanta
01-29-2002, 01:36 PM
Thanks Stillakid.I know now I'm not alone on the Fett thing and your words fit my attitude towards the whole thing perfectly.I can understand the Family story line with the skywalkers but this B-character thing hand me downs and all really bugs me

Darth Knight
01-29-2002, 06:50 PM
I have a bad feeling about this. What is George Lucas thinking? "Return of the Jedi" those ewoks and the zippers on the back of their costumes bad effects in Jabbas palace. Ep 1 Jar Jar binks!The only good thing about Ep 1 was the dual light saber battle in the end of the movie. "new Hope" and The Empire Strikes back" Best Star Wars movies ever made so far. Ep 2 ?

Darth Shinji
01-30-2002, 12:26 AM
I am interested to see the Fett family. I am interested to see the inside of Slave I. I am interested to see if the quote from Vader to Fett on the bridge of the Executor is explained ("No disintegrations.") I don't care if George is capitolizing on the fans likes and dislikes, he is doing something he likes. I hope that some small kid somewhere is interested in Jango like I was with Boba when I saw him (animated) on the holiday special. All I expect are some questions answered, some more raised, and possibly a revelation (eg. Luke's dad...Empire) To answer the question posed, I have my reservations, and as a hardcore Star Wars fan, I'm ashamed to say, I'm REALLY looking forward to Spiderman, because I've been waiting for this movie for twenty years. Maybe a little move Clone presence in advertising will pique my interest and help AotC rise above Spidey.


Maybe


Hpoefully


Ah... who cares, I'm going to LIVE in the damn theater in May!!

wedge5377
01-30-2002, 12:31 AM
From all looks the trailers seem to give us a good hint of this being a greater film than EP 1. We can always look back if you take my opinion that Empire was the best of the original three and hope for the best.

And for all those doubters these next to films will blow you into the back of the theatre EP 1 was just a backstory, I Hope.

Wolfwood319
01-30-2002, 01:05 AM
Shinji, don't feel bad if you're more interested in something else besides AOTC, this year. There are like 5 movies coming out this year that I have more interest in seeing than E2.

I don't really want to learn about Boba Fett's youth (hey, good band name!). It seems to me that GL is just using him because of his previous popularity from the OT. Heaven forbid they do something original!

As for you, Wedge, how do you know that E2 will "blow us to the back of the theater?" Have you seen a sneak preview of the film? You call us doubters, I call you naive. Its nice to be optimistic, but it helps to be a realist.

Man In The Box
01-30-2002, 09:41 AM
hey if ep.II sucks, theres always LOTR.

But man AOTC? I was able to get used to TMP as the ep.1 title, but I'll prolly just laugh if I say AOTC.

I think AOTC will be better than Ep.1 anyway, it's suppoed to be less childish and of course GL could learn form him previous mistakes.

CaptainSolo1138
02-03-2002, 07:22 PM
My only "fear" is the merchandise blunder Lucas & Co. accomplished for Episode I. I want a Jango Fett soap dispenser, but do they really need to make enough for every housewife in Iowa?

stillakid
02-04-2002, 12:09 AM
That's it! Forget the blow up Jar Jar chair. Get Britney Spears in the movie and put blow up Britney chairs in the stores. Guaranteed to sell out.

Co Jo-Da
02-04-2002, 11:57 AM
I'm very excited about Attack of the Clones, from all acounts of what I've read, heard, and seen thus far. The Phantom Menace was a fun movie to watch but Attack of the Clones is going to be the true Episode I.

CaptainSolo1138
02-04-2002, 12:00 PM
Why not? She's half plastic already! Uh, that was pretty bad. She'd come with a voice chip so she could whine and complain every time you wanted to sit down and actually make her useful for something besides looking at. And then she'd demand she be packed with a Justin Timberlake end table. Wow, I bet even Seventeen magazine hasn't been able to use Justin Timberlake's name and the word "end table" in a sentence! I rule. Lance Bass Entertainment center!

Corran Horn
02-04-2002, 06:55 PM
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3242

I bet the reason for the smooth ships in the prequels and more blockiness in the OT is because, well the Clone Wars were a dark time. There was mass destruction. Its kinda like the prequels are Roman/ Greek times, then the clone wars part of it is like total war, uncivilized, loss of knowledge and lack of care, the same with the OT. Its all after a huge war, where all records and the glory ofthe republic is gone. The empire was more militaristic than the republic, so beuatiful designs didnt matter. They probably destroyed all the pretty republic and supporters stuff, and for example the royal naboo ship, well the empire took control and nobody had royal wealth. With all the war going on, people couldnt buy nice stuff, and wanted some muscle in thier ship for smuggling, skirmishes, etc. The old production corporations were gone and now new Imperial era companies were producing stronger mor warlike designs for the new direction the galaxy was taking. Let me know what you think. Post here, email me rogue9@attbi.com, or else AOL is CorranHorn328

stillakid
02-04-2002, 07:06 PM
How insightful.

bigbarada
02-04-2002, 08:54 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head, Corran Horn. Technology doesn't necessarily move forward at a constant rate. There are multitudes of events and catastrophes which could send us back to the middle ages, even now. Being that we've lived in a time of prosperity and amazing technological progress all of our lives, it's a little hard for us to look outside of our own little realm of experience and see that things were not always this way.

JediTricks
02-05-2002, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by CaptainSolo1138
Why not? She's half plastic already! Uh, that was pretty bad. She'd come with a voice chip so she could whine and complain every time you wanted to sit down and actually make her useful for something besides looking at. And then she'd demand she be packed with a Justin Timberlake end table. Wow, I bet even Seventeen magazine hasn't been able to use Justin Timberlake's name and the word "end table" in a sentence! I rule. Lance Bass Entertainment center! Here, I can rule too: I want to see Samuel L Jackson hit Justin Timberlake in the head with an end table. ;) :D :Pirate:

CaptainSolo1138
02-05-2002, 02:53 PM
The force is strong with this one. I officially give the "rule" title to you, JediTricks!

Rollo Tomassi
02-05-2002, 03:09 PM
I agree with JT and stilakid. I don't think it's going to be good BEFORE I go see it. I'll think it's good (or not)AFTER I see it. But the more and more spoilage that gets dropped (like the sections of script around the forums) the more I think I like what I'm gonna see. More political intrigue. More levity. More ambiguous overtones. It might even make Episode I more tolerable.

Corran Horn
02-08-2002, 10:30 PM
It's going to be great I think. With Jango Fett and Boba Fett, and perhaps Palpatine declares himself Emperor here? I Like it. It would be a TON better if Lucas ha gone through the novels like Zahns and used people like Garm Bel Iblis, Joruus C'Boath, etc. Perhaps we will see a man in the background of a scene with palpatine where there is a man who matches C'Boath's features? And if he wanted to get a major movie going, he could ad Thrawn. Heck, I'm gonna start a new thread about EU movies. Go find it.:crazed:

odb
02-11-2002, 06:00 PM
Despite what I have seen I still have doubts about AOTC. I think Lucas will try to put too much in the film leading to people coming away indifferent as they never get to know the characters before the next big action sequence.

The whole issue of reveling Boba Fetts past has the potential to go badly wrong. BobaFetts appeal seems to be built on his mysterious past. If all this is explained I think his appeal with disapear or be badly damaged.

I think I'll reserve my opinion till I've seen the film as nowadays they can make a trailer sell any film (see Battlefield Earth as an example). But from TPMs example I'm not overconfident.

Dar' Argol
03-05-2002, 11:27 AM
I don't think I will have any problems with EP2. Here's why, and please bear with me.

EP1 was exactly what I had expected and I enjoyed every minute of it, inclueding Jar Jar. If you think he was annoying think of Luke's constant whining in ANH. This is what a lot of people forgot about TPM. ITS THE FIRST CHAPTER IN A BOOK!!!! Whenever you read the first couple chapters in a book they are BOREING!! They are doing character development and setting the rest of the story up. EP1 did the same thing. The only differance is that all of us skipped to the middle, read about 200 pages and then decided to go back and start from the begining. This is by no means our fault. It was Lucas's idea to do it this way. So we all know that Anakin becomes Vader, we know just how evil Palpatine is, and we know good will conquer evil in the end. What we didn't know is how it all got started. WE have now gone back to the begining of the book, and began anew.

As far as the technology I read briefly about and how EP1 looks all great with its shipp and what not. In EP1 everyone had money, the Senate was in control(sorta) and the Empire was no where to be found(yet). After Palpatine takes over, destroys the Senate and gives the intire cosmos a galactic wedgie no one has much money. Everyone dumped their resources into the Clone Wars. So when everything get back to "normal" after the war, people still need to make a living. So they scrounge up what leftovers there are, make modifacations, and voila, you have the junky looking ships we have all come to love. Besides, how much funds do you think the rebellion had first starting up? SQUAT!! So they build their ships out of whatever was laying around and hoped it worked.

I just hope that everyone remembers these points and before you go blasting another SW movie b/c it does not live up to the standards set by the trilogy. That was one of the thinks I hated in other boards I was involved in. Everyone blasted EP1 because it was not the trilogy. DUH! :crazed:

stillakid
03-05-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Dar' Argol
I don't think I will have any problems with EP2. Here's why, and please bear with me.

EP1 was exactly what I had expected and I enjoyed every minute of it, inclueding Jar Jar. If you think he was annoying think of Luke's constant whining in ANH. This is what a lot of people forgot about TPM. ITS THE FIRST CHAPTER IN A BOOK!!!! Whenever you read the first couple chapters in a book they are BOREING!! They are doing character development and setting the rest of the story up. EP1 did the same thing. The only differance is that all of us skipped to the middle, read about 200 pages and then decided to go back and start from the begining. This is by no means our fault. It was Lucas's idea to do it this way. So we all know that Anakin becomes Vader, we know just how evil Palpatine is, and we know good will conquer evil in the end. What we didn't know is how it all got started. WE have now gone back to the begining of the book, and began anew.

As far as the technology I read briefly about and how EP1 looks all great with its shipp and what not. In EP1 everyone had money, the Senate was in control(sorta) and the Empire was no where to be found(yet). After Palpatine takes over, destroys the Senate and gives the intire cosmos a galactic wedgie no one has much money. Everyone dumped their resources into the Clone Wars. So when everything get back to "normal" after the war, people still need to make a living. So they scrounge up what leftovers there are, make modifacations, and voila, you have the junky looking ships we have all come to love. Besides, how much funds do you think the rebellion had first starting up? SQUAT!! So they build their ships out of whatever was laying around and hoped it worked.

I just hope that everyone remembers these points and before you go blasting another SW movie b/c it does not live up to the standards set by the trilogy. That was one of the thinks I hated in other boards I was involved in. Everyone blasted EP1 because it was not the trilogy. DUH! :crazed:


You've missed the point of the "whining" about EP I. Yes, we know how it all ends up, but TPM was a poorly written story with many inconsistencies within itself as well as with the remainder of the previously told storyline. Also, as the first "book" of the series, it is under no requirement to be boring or dull just because there might be some exposition requirements. If you take some time to read the many insightful discussions concerning TPM in the numerous other threads, then you'll see that most of us don't shoot from the hip just to cut something down. There are countless well thought out arguments concerning this issue which in turn resulted in the need for this very topic about Ep II.

And yes, we all understand how the peaceful galaxy had clean lines and such, but then turned "junky" during the war. That's really no secret and hasn't been since the mid-80's.

Dar' Argol
03-05-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by stillakid



If you take some time to read the many insightful discussions concerning TPM in the numerous other threads, then you'll see that most of us don't shoot from the hip just to cut something down. There are countless well thought out arguments concerning this issue which in turn resulted in the need for this very topic about Ep II.


I was never suggesting any one was "shooting from the hip". I apologize. This is just one of the many blastings I have since from the release of TPM. I am not one to blindly believe that all the GL puts out is gold and should be worshiped. There are a good # of things wrong with TPM. I for one, and this is my opinion, think it was a good movie and a good start to the series. But it seems to me all I see is the bad about the movie. No one comments on anything else. So, once again I am sorry. Its just one view point and a healthy debate.:happy:hi

stillakid
03-05-2002, 03:32 PM
True, much of what has been written has been negative about TPM probably because it's easier to talk about the bad stuff.:)

It had it's positives for sure, like the Production Design, and, um, well I liked the music.

Unfortunately, the story was so poorly structured that much of it made little sense. I personally found much of the acting to be horrid (Sam Jackson, Jake Lloyd, for two). Too many inconsistencies with the OT, including, but not limited to Midichlorians and Qui Gonn Jinn. And many of the story elements were way over the top and the dialogue was designed for 5 year olds.

The balance of good vs bad things about TPM are cause of concern for what we'll be given in EP II, but I remain cautiously hopeful that GL heard the critics and fans loud and clear. I believe that is the reason he got help writing EP II and (as some of the members here believe) the reason more "spoilers" have been released to help appease the discouraged masses.

Head on over to the EP I board and post some of the great things you thought of TPM! I'm sure everyone would love to hear them and join in a "spirited" discussion. :D

Cheers!

jonthejedi
03-06-2002, 06:14 AM
I know Mr. Lucas has always said his target audience for Star Wars is the 9-year old. I fear he pandered too much to that mentality with Phantom Menace. Most of us think Empire rocks...but did George direct it...NO! I think Mr. Lucas' skills lie in the producer/editing depts. I prayed for 10 years Mr. Spielberg or Cameron or Howard..or gosh even Chris Columbus would get a shot at directing one. I'm very optimistic that he at least got another screenwriter to help him. From what I've seen...the Clone troopers don't bother me as much as the return of battle droids from Ep. 1. After their dismal failure against the forces of Naboo...why re-employ them? Hmmmm? I am excited overall...kids don't forget to have your VCRs set Sunday night on Fox. I'm Sure this trailer will blow us off our sofas. jonthejedi

mark2d2
03-11-2002, 01:13 AM
Sadly, the new trailer only heightened my concerns. It was the Phantom Menace all over again. Horrible acting. Flat, uninteresting writing. And a Yoda that is just plain odd. The CGI simply doesn't not look as realistic as the folks at Lucasfilm must think. Scene after scene looked flat out phoney.

I really enjoyed ALL three of the other trailers -- especially the Mystery Trailer. And my excitement built and built as I saw each one. The one today . . . was just a big let down.

Oh, well. I'll always have the O.T. . . .

PS -- I agree, Jonthejedi. Lucas did pander. More than that he underestimated the 9 year olds. Really. They aren't that unsophisticated.

Tycho
03-11-2002, 02:35 AM
Mark2D2, I don't disagree with you. What I wonder though is this:

Is the state of computer generated graphics up to the task of creating something that is real, and making it look right?

For the specific purpose of doing vehicles and flying things, can someone at ILM take a blank screen and create an image of George W. Bush driving a green Pinto through a carwash while birds fly bye just waiting for the car to be clean again?

And make it look really real - when all of it is fake starting from scratch?

Alright, let's make it Elvis driving a 2003 Mitsubishi - something that's impossible to get real footage of today.

We know that Geonosians, Acklays, Republic Gunships, and Battle Droids are not real. So it is easier to disbelieve them in the movie. What I don't know about is the current level of achievement in Computer Generated Graphics.

ILM does the effects for Star Trek and Jurassic Park. They both consistently look pretty good. In "Clone Wars" the spider droid was a little over the top.

If Lucasfilm had actually built that thing out of parts in autoshop, or used motorized or stop-motion miniatures (like the AT-AT's filmed in 1979) and composited it, would it have been better?

Or is it the fact that 25 foot tall robotic spider droids don't exist?

mark2d2
03-11-2002, 04:52 AM
My biggest gripe is that Yoda looked just, well, bizarre. Clearly, whatever the limits of the puppet were, he photographed well.

As far as the ships go --- hey, they all look great. CGI works great for ships and inanimate objects. Most droids too.

It's mainly the creatures, and any shot with a human in it against the arena that look really REALLY fake. I mean cartoonish. Like Toy Story. (Which was great, but not at all photorealistic. Nor was it trying to be...)

To be truthful, the fact that there is going to be this MASSIVE battle simply doesn't thrill me at all. It's like Episode I. I couldn't have cared less about any of the gunguns in the final battle. Or the pilots attacking the trade Federation ships. They were just this mass of casualties. I felt no connection to any of them. They were either annoying. (JarJar) Or they were barely there. (The pilots) These especially were poorly done. Just a barrage of generic Nabooians. "The deflector shield is too strong!" Who cares? These weren't characters, they were Extras with lines. In ANH you really got a sense of who each of pilots were within minutes and then as they died one by one it was quite disturbing. It was amazingly well done. In fact Return of the Jedi also suffered from this problem -- as a result it's big space battle simply isn't nearly as gripping. There's way more cool ships whizzing around. But somehow, there's little to care about.

Another concern I have is that too many things --- the 25 foot spider for example are just wierd for the sake of being wierd. Often, the designs seem a bit generic. (Everything has multiple legs, everything has tentacles...) But yes, Had you shot people against a motorized prop of this 25 foot spider it probably would have looked better.

Then there's what passes for the dialogue. There is no wit in the new films. Which ANH and ESB had in spades. The characters not only were clever. They said clever things. So far, nobody says anything even close to clever in the trailers and that's a big concern. At least to me.

JEDIpartner
03-11-2002, 10:33 AM
I agree with Mark on many of his points regarding the CG business. One of my friends, who is NOT, a big SW junkie as I am, thought the CG elements were a little TOO obvious in TPM. That was just the tip of the iceberg. Now that Lucas has all of this digital technology, it seems that they are getting into less real and more digital overkill. The overall texture of the visual element is starting to suffer or cheapen, if you will. Think of how "real" the interior of the Death Star seemed. Much of that has been missing in the CG laden "interiors" of the larger sets.

As far as the "spider" thing... I dunno. I'm torn on that. There were some really great shots of the stop motion AT-ATs, but some of the close-ups and side shots looked a little odd. They really did seem like props... considering the matte painting backdrop sky was a lot bluer than the on-location shots.

Tycho
03-11-2002, 03:45 PM
Mark,

I agree with you on just about everything you just posted.

I too had a problem with some of the shots of Yoda. It's just not as interesting to discuss as another point you make.

The extras. In ROTJ's space battle, if Hobbie and Janson returned on screen - and even got killed leading Green and Grey Squadrons, that would have been much more intense such as when Garven Dreis, Biggs, Gold Leader, and Porkins bit it. Or if Hobbie and Janson had to survive to continue Rogue Squadron lore, give them wingmen with names to die protecting them.

Names help a lot. Familiar characters - even extras - do too!

Yes, to the spider droid too - weird for just the sake of it? To a degree. I think the Backtoid Army devices mirror the natural lifeforms that evolve on Geonosis though. The BattleDroids look like Geonosians, hence the Spider Droid would be a "clone" of the Acklay monster.

The Arena is probably used to demostrate for weapons sales as well as for entertainment "Roman Style." I think they typically pit their new droid against its form they based it on.

This makes some sense. Today stealth fighters mirror bat-rays and airplanes are built sort of resembling birds and sharks combined, to emulate how they function in the air and in the water. (Maybe Volkswagon made its new design for "The Bug" to emulate how Danny DeVito transversus New York City!)

But still, the spider droid looks weak. If I was General Veers in that universe, I wouldn't buy it for my forces. Balmorra's heavy weapons industry that furnishes the AT-AT's and AT-ST's, and before that AT-PT's and from the looks of it, the Republic's battle walkers we just saw in the new trailer, seem made to be able to kick the tar out of anything Backtoid Armor makes! No wonder they are fighting to stay in business. "It kills Jedi" might make a strong 30 second commercial during the next Pod Race holo-cast.

eliwankenobi
04-05-2002, 05:21 PM
after the 20 year hiatus of star wars, i was bouncing off the walls with excitement for episode 1. i did the whole camp-in-line-dressed-as-a-jedi-thing on opening day and was counting the seconds to get into the theater for our show. my initial reaction was "awesome!" - even despite jar-jar.
seeing it several more times was the problem. it was then that i noticed all the inconsistancies in the film. the first trilogy had it's fun, quirky little errors, but the story was so good - without being overwhelming - and we loved the characters - ewoks? - that these inconsistancies were easily overlooked. i found the inconsistancies in episode 1 glaring and distracting though: dry characters with no depth or energy, background characters standing like mannequins staring off into space, and the gungan/battle droid ground battle was just lame.
i recall an interview with george lucas a long time ago (possibly in a galaxy far, far away) where he was ripping on sci-fi/action movies that rely on effects to carry the story so the actors don't have to. i thought that was just the case with episode 1 - a blase, predictable story with too many effects.
now, with episode 2 on the immediate horizon, i'm wary going into the theater, wondering what to expect. i want a return to the day of a fun star wars movie with characters that we cared about and exciting effects that don't overwhelm us.
now i know a bunch of you out there will call me a blasphemer for uttering these words, but i'm just as big a fan as the next one, and i'm not afraid to say that episode 1 was disappointing.
time to turn that around. come on george, do us proud!

stillakid
04-05-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by eliwankenobi
after the 20 year hiatus of star wars, i was bouncing off the walls with excitement for episode 1. i did the whole camp-in-line-dressed-as-a-jedi-thing on opening day and was counting the seconds to get into the theater for our show. my initial reaction was "awesome!" - even despite jar-jar.
seeing it several more times was the problem. it was then that i noticed all the inconsistancies in the film. the first trilogy had it's fun, quirky little errors, but the story was so good - without being overwhelming - and we loved the characters - ewoks? - that these inconsistancies were easily overlooked. i found the inconsistancies in episode 1 glaring and distracting though: dry characters with no depth or energy, background characters standing like mannequins staring off into space, and the gungan/battle droid ground battle was just lame.
i recall an interview with george lucas a long time ago (possibly in a galaxy far, far away) where he was ripping on sci-fi/action movies that rely on effects to carry the story so the actors don't have to. i thought that was just the case with episode 1 - a blase, predictable story with too many effects.
now, with episode 2 on the immediate horizon, i'm wary going into the theater, wondering what to expect. i want a return to the day of a fun star wars movie with characters that we cared about and exciting effects that don't overwhelm us.
now i know a bunch of you out there will call me a blasphemer for uttering these words, but i'm just as big a fan as the next one, and i'm not afraid to say that episode 1 was disappointing.
time to turn that around. come on george, do us proud!


No one can disagree with you because everything you say is fact. Episode One was lame for all the reasons that you and everyone else talks about. Don't change a word of the above.

Wolfwood319
04-05-2002, 09:25 PM
I was just as disappointed as the next fan after E1, but after 3 years, the movie has grown on me. I look forward to AOTC now with hopeful optimism. Even if it is par with E1 at this point, I don't think I'll mind, because I really like E1 now. Of course I hope it is better than E1.

stillakid
04-05-2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
Of course I hope it is better than E1.

It would take true effort to be worse.:rolleyes:

What has changed in your own mind to make Ep I "better?" Do you ignore the problems that are etched permenantly into celluloid or have you found a way to rationalize them out? I'm not trying to be facitious or a smart-***...I really want to know. Maybe the rest of us could go through some kind of Star Wars therapy.:)

Wolfwood319
04-05-2002, 09:44 PM
For the most part I just ignore them and concentrate on the things I like. I just don't dwell on the problems when I watch the movie. I just watch it for what it is, a movie. Plain and simple. I don't compare it to anything else, especially the OT. I just take it as the first movie in a new trilogy.

I don't really try to rationalize the movie anymore and just take it for what it is. That's all the advice I can offer anyone. I've watched E1 a few times now in the last month, and I've really come to enjoy the movie for the most part. I don't try and sit there and don't try to think "oh, I would've done this to make it better" or "that isn't right, that's not the way it should be," etc. I've actually come to enjoy it more than ROTJ. I just can't stand ROTJ anymore really, it just doesn't "click" for me anymore.

JediTricks
04-06-2002, 01:30 AM
Stilla, while you and I may agree with Eli-Wan there, it's not fact, there are many who disagree with us and it's their right. I don't have to agree with them to discuss the film though. :happy:

mark2d2
04-06-2002, 04:11 AM
God, how I envy you people who can say The Phantom Menace "has grown on them." For me, the film (and I use that term very loosely) just gets worse everytime I try to watch it on DVD. Other than the opening shots, the Senate, and the big Jedi duel sequences --- I cannot abide this movie. It is just so utterly wretched it is just too flat out depressing for words. There is no magic to Episode I. No spark. It's just so Flat.

It is just bad, bad, bad.

I pray that Episode II is better. I agree though, Stillakid, it would take an act of SUPREME WILL to be worse.

Seriously, it can't get any worse than Episode I. That was the end.

RooJay
04-06-2002, 03:46 PM
The only fear I have about Attack of the Clones is that i will be so excited when the Fox Fanfare plays when the movie starts that I will lose control of my bodily functions! That, and the possibility that I might've been right in thinking that George should've cast me as Anakin instead of that PUNK Christensen! - jk!:crazed:

Wolfwood319
04-06-2002, 03:54 PM
The more and more I watch E1, (I'm watching it right now) the more and more I like it. I really can't explain it. I absolutely loathed this film when I first saw it, now its almost one of my favorites. I think seeing it in context with E2 will help as well. As a stand alone in the SW universe, it is pretty lacking. But by itself and (hopefully) when put with AOTC and E3, it'll look better. It just has a different feeling than the OT, and at first I hated it, now I like it though.

stillakid
04-06-2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Stilla, while you and I may agree with Eli-Wan there, it's not fact, there are many who disagree with us and it's their right. I don't have to agree with them to discuss the film though. :happy:

Ok, so maybe I overstated it a bit, but he sounded like he was on the verge of apologizing for feeling that way and I wanted him to know that he wasn't alone.

On the other hand, I do believe that there are absolutes, even in something as subjective as art or writing, that make something "good" or "bad." That doesn't disqualify someone from liking it, but their appreciation of it doesn't undo the empirical evaluation of said art's quality.

TPM, for instance, is a poorly written story, in the context of all literature, with lacking character arcs and a plot in need of being tightened up in just about every scene. Relative to it's kin, it fails to follow established plot points.

As a work of art, it fails in almost every way...why? Because it set out to accomplish a specific task and didn't do it. Can people still like it? Of course. Does that mean that it was good? No. People like poorly "done" things all the time.

I'm reminded of my college studies, when my professor asked if anyone knew what the greatest failure in television programming was. The answer: Sesame Street. Who knew?! Why was it....is it, a failure? Because it was intended to attract lower class children from disadvantaged homes, primarily in the city. It didn't do that at all. Failure. However, it is still on the air because it did attract a totally different audience from the one that it meant to: middle and upper class white kids. Is the show good? Yeah! Is it a failure? Yeah. It didn't accomplish what it set out to do and neither did The Phantom Menace.

But, then again, I'm making this up as I go...;)

Wolfwood319
04-06-2002, 09:53 PM
I disagree with you on the "absoluetes" in art in general. I think the defining characteristics of art is that there is no absolute in art. Everyone has their own opinions, viewpoints, likes and dislikes. The terms "good, bad, fair, poor," etc. are all subjuctive. To say that something is "good' or "bad" for certain is very shallow, IMO, because you are just one person with one perspective.

You say TPM has a poorly written story, and that is absolute. But even the term "poor" is relative. You may think its poor, that doesn't make it so for everyone else. Someone else may see the movie from a different viewpoint as you.

And as for accomplishing set tasks, who can say? What tasks did it set out to achieve? And who can say they did or did not attain those goals other than George Lucas.

Almost everything in this world is relative. No one can say for anything is good or bad for certain. The very essence of critique is relative.

stillakid
04-07-2002, 03:36 PM
I knew that I was walking a fine line when I wrote that. Very true, the concepts of good, bad, indifferent are subjective by their very nature.

However, what I'm getting at is that there are recognized conventions that are used when an author sits down to write a story. Generally there is a point to be made, whether the author is setting out to just illicit an emotional response from the audience or actual action, as a documentary might do. To make that point, the author uses a variety of tools including Act Breaks (3 Acts being the most popular), Scenes (within the Acts), Characters (who represent a variety of points-of-view for the author to express his ideas), and Actions (which the Characters "do" or "say" to get across their "pov's" in order to express the author's ideas in order to illicit the desired response.)

The original Star Wars was textbook storywriting. All the Acts were present with well defined characters who were carried along by a plot that held audiences spellbound and continue to do so some 20 odd years later. The original 3 films formed their own 3 Act structure (which within themselves, contained 3 acts each) which were entirely interconnected without discrepencies of plot or character.

Enter Episode I, and Mr. Lucas introduced an entirely new set of plot elements and characters, which were at odds with the established continuity of the original films. If that were the only problem, I think that most people would have overlooked it and wouldn't have been as critical. But as it's own film, it had flaws in plot structure, character development, and dialogue. On the technical side, there were problems regarding casting, acting, and some of the special effects. It is these types of storytelling "conventions" that were lacking quality especially when compared with the previous Star Wars films and when compared with other "good" contemporary works.

So while a person might find enjoyment in The Phantom Menace, for instance, it does nothing to solve the inherent problems that exist with the film itself which make it an empirically measured poor motion picture.

Ep II may be better as a stand alone film, but if it continues to use the flawed elements that were established in Ep I (and it will), then it too will be cursed as a flawed work when viewed within the entire Star Wars story structure. This is why, if Mr. Lucas does not significantly alter the original trilogy to include references to Midichlorians and Qui Gon Jinn, then the Prequels and the Original Trilogy will be fundamentally at odds with one another and make them mutually exclusive.

Wolfwood319
04-07-2002, 07:28 PM
I think that if the only problems one sees in TPM is the inclusion of things that contradict the OT, and from that form their basis of critiquing the movie, then they are missing out. I'm not saying anyone in particular views the movie this way, but I have met my share fare of "Diehard fanatics" who do nothing but say how "They would've made TPM better."

In terms of acting, yes a good portion of it was sub-par to the "standards'' that have been set forth of what good acting is. Some of it was rather quite "forced" IMO. Jake Lloyd and Hugh Quarshe specifically come to mind. But I thought that there was some good acting as well. Not to the quality of Denzel Washington in "Training Day" :rolleyes: but good. I also must say that much of the dialogue for Anakin still bothers me. I generally thought the character development was good for taking into account that TPM was a staging ground for the prequels in general. And since GL knew that 2 more movies were coming, he only told what needed to be told in the first installment of the story.

I thought the plot was generally good as well. Its no Godfather, but then again, very few movies are. I thought the pacing was excellent, and the movie flowed very well (something I thought ROTJ was lacking. :( )

As for internal technical problems, I can't comment on. Nothing in life goes smoothly, unfortunetaly.

But if you look at what "standards" the industry has set, you also have to look at the subjectiveness that is present. The Academy voted Denzel Washington "Best Actor" for Training Day. All I'm saying is that even though there are set "standards" as to what qualifies as "good" or as "bad" in films, television, books etc. doesn't make it a definitive measure. If everything was cut and dry, then there would be no reason to have so many critics. There are hundreds of film critics and they all give different reviews. Some liked TPM, the majority of them didn't. Where one sees problems in TPM, others might not.

You say that TPM is an empirically measured poor motion picture. I agree that the basis of quality these days is based on the majority's viewpoints. But remember, 1000 years ago, the majority of the people thought the world was flat. Just because the majority of people have a set basis of "good" or "bad," doesn't make them true.

Stillakid, you say that there is problems with TPM that make it inherently a "bad" movie, even though people can still like it. I say that the problems themselves are subjective and people have different opinions and viewpoints towards everything. The problems you see aren't definitive, they are relative as well, IMO.

stillakid
04-07-2002, 09:17 PM
Hmm.

Let's see...

I think that there is a matter of perspective to be taken into account when it comes to any form of art and opinion of it.

It could be inferred by my previous posts that I feel that TPM was a bad movie because so many people didn't like it. Rather, I believe that many people didn't like it because it was a bad movie. It seems basic, but it is an important distinction to make.

Taking the example of the nature of the planet's shape isn't really a reliable comparison to make as many extraneous factors came into play in the period before Galileo (ie. religion, Copernician thought, etc.) More about that concept in a minute.

But regardless of that, I'm not suggesting that majority-rules when judging the quality of something. A majority-of-dissension is created by the sub-par work, not the other way around. However, having a large sampling of "critique" to study as a measured response to a work of art is just a way to quantify the opinions of others. The work is still an independent entity, sitting there with it's pluses and minuses which can be empirically evaluated.

Ahah! Now the crux of the problem. That evaluation comes not from people who critique, but rather from all the previous works that come before. Centuries of practice have defined what qualities of storytelling human-beings consider to be good or bad. "Good" qualities are recognized and emulated. Theoretically, "bad" qualities are culled out. (But Hollywood has a way of adding extraneous, there's that word again, baggage to the act of telling a story, which Lucas is not immune to.)True, it is constantly evolving, but one would be hard pressed to find someone who would enjoy the following story:

He coughed.

The End


Simplified? Sure. But the point is that it's a weak story. Who is "he?" Why did he cough? When? Where? Who cares? It's a story, to be sure, but not a very good one. The "accepted" conventions of "good" storytelling are missing. There's no beginning. No true end. No resolution. No second act. The character has no arc. We don't know how he feels about coughing or how other's might feel about him coughing. The questions go on and on. That's not the fault of the critics, rather the fault of the author, in this case me.

When dealing with a 2-hour story, an evaluation is much more involved and complicated, just as the writing should be. "Extraneous" emotions can get in the way of an honest evaluation. In the case of a Star Wars film, so many of us want to like it, that some people are willing to give Lucas the benefit of the doubt with excuses like, "he was just setting up the next two films" or something like that. Feelings like that get in the way of looking at a film for what it is, judging it on it's own merits. Which leads back to my postulate that despite a person's liking or disliking something, it doesn't change the original empirical evidence of a work's quality one way or another.

I think that it's great that people can find a way to like whatever they want to (aside from acts of pure evil, for example). Even Hitler had his fans (Eva Braun comes to mind), but that doesn't make what he did any better.

Oh, and a sincere thanks for the interesting discussion. You're forcing me to dig deep within myself to back up an unpopular opinion, which itself could be proof of your side! I may believe it to be a solid argument, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. But if that is true, then that means that I'm right! :crazed:

Wolfwood319
04-07-2002, 10:14 PM
Ahh, Stillakid,

I never thought that you or anyone else did not like TPM because others did. That isn't exactly what I meant. What I was referring to, not just about TPM, but in general as you also stated, is that the basis of "good" or "bad'' comes from centuries worth of work. The general conception of what is "good" seems to evolve with human nature, as well it should.

Here is an example of what I am proposing; is Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet considered "good" because of what it is, or because of what has been thought about it? If Shakespeare never published or put into production any of his plays, and yesterday his written copy of Romeo and Juliet was found, would it still be considered good?

What I was trying to bring across with my "world is flat" statement is that the majority of people over time have somewhat defined what is considered ''good."


Ahah! Now the crux of the problem. That evaluation comes not from people who critique, but rather from all the previous works that come before. Centuries of practice have defined what qualities of storytelling human-beings consider to be good or bad. "Good" qualities are recognized and emulated. Theoretically, "bad" qualities are culled out.

An excellent point, but I disagree with you on one minor point. You say that evaluation of something today comes from the evaluations of things that came before it. I agree with this, but what I'm trying to say is that the evaluations of the things that came before were also just opinions of people.

Now granted, that being the same species, most people have a general basis for what is good and what is bad. But even your short story "He Coughed" could be taken as good by some people. Case in point is paintings that are all one color. If I saw a painting that was pure white, I wouldn't give it another look. But there are those out there that see it in a different light, and may see things in the painting that I don't.

You as well as I ask questions in reference to your story like "Who is he," and "why did he cough?" But others might see it and respond to you "Why do you need to know who 'he' is?" Now obviously this goes way deeper than analyzing a Star Wars movie, but the general idea is there.

All I'm saying is that the basis of what is considered when judging whether or not a body of work is "good" or not, is subjective. Why has one style of acting been generally conceived as good, and another style conceived as not so good?

"To assertain whether or not something is good, it has to be compared with what has previously been established." I'm looking beyond that and ask the question "why are some previous works considered good and others not?" What makes the general conception that the first Star Wars film is "good" whereas TPM was lacking?

You made the comment that "extraneous" emotions may get in the way of making an honest evaluation. Agreed, but what is an evaluation other than the emotions?

Or, you say that so many of us want to like it that we come up with a comprimise to like it (you may be right BTW. :p ) But using that same logic, could one not say that because of one's "previous thoughts of Star Wars, that anything other than your preconceived notion of what you think IS Star Wars, you will dislike automatically?"

Also, Stillakid, thank you too for the most engaging and interesting discussion I've had in a long time.:D And to any other forumite, jump in at any time!:D I'd love more than just 2 viewpoints on this discussion.

stillakid
04-09-2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
You made the comment that "extraneous" emotions may get in the way of making an honest evaluation. Agreed, but what is an evaluation other than the emotions?

This seems to be the core of the issue. How does a human-being make an evaluation of anything? On the surface, our judgments seem to be based primarily on emotional response to something.

I myself stood out on a limb and said that I enjoyed the remake of Rollerball. Even though I knew on an intellectual level that the story was full of holes and the characters were one-dimensional and some of the dialogue was weak, the film as a whole struck an emotional chord in me that allowed me to enjoy it.

Despite my emotional enjoyment, however that didn't make the film any better when evaluated on the merits of what most people consider "good" elements of storytelling. Now, the filmmakers could argue that the film was a success despite the problems that so many people found with it, because a film of that type has the express purpose of illiciting an emotional response (adrenaline rush) from the audience. IF an audience member can allow himself to ignore(?) the problems while watching the film Rollerball, then I believe that it would be difficult to not manage to get caught up in the emotional rollercoaster.

Allowing yourself to keep those "extraneous" expectations and/or emotions out of the evaluation process is the biggest challenge of a fair critical review. Yes, emotional response is part of the puzzle here, but we have an emotional response in reaction to the work (of art). Our opinions do not create the basis of good or bad, we simply recognize "good" or "bad" that exists as it's own entity.

SithDroid
04-09-2002, 03:26 PM
The main reason that IMO that TPM was disliked by many people was the flaw in continuity. I absolutley can't stand films that do not follow continuity. Midichlorians were poorly thought up and introduced at a time when they should not have been. Now is not the time to start making up stuff like that considering there is already a 20+ year history of them not being there. Plus the fact that the OT takes place AFTER TPM, makes it a little hard to explain them. This, by far, was the most horendous addition to the movie. There are also other inconsistencies with the OT such as, Why Tatooine? Surely if Luke was given to Anakins brother-in-law, then why doesn't Vader know about Luke and come after him sooner? The whole "virgin birth" theory. This has no place in the SW Universe. Trying to relate Anakin to Jesus is hardly a point GL should be making. Jar Jar Binks. Why was he in the films? Certainly a more well developed character could have been used instead of this slapstick childish humor driven "character."

I could go on and on about the flaws of the film, but I'll stop here.

stillakid, I hope that GL does not mess with the OT to include such references such as midichlorians, adding Jar Jar etc... If anything should be done a SPECIAL EDITION of TPM should be done to exclude the midichlorian issue and cut down on the childishness of Jar Jar. It would be much easier to fix one film with actors that are still somewhat the same looking, than trying to mess with the OT with actors that have aged 25 years. I hope that if GL decides to do something then it will be done to TPM.

Boy, as far as EP II, I hope that it is a good film. If not, I'll just expect the same for EP III.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 03:42 PM
This might be a little off the subject, but Stillakid has reminded me of this theory that I've always held to. I have always felt that ones perception of a given film can be highly influenced by the perceptions of the person(s), and sometimes the audience they see it with. I've noted on several occassions thta when groups of people go to a film together, if one of those people has poor expectations of that film (warranted or not) then the other person will be less likely to enjoy the film. Further, I have been involved in situations where a person, having seen a particular film, will see it again with someone with high expectations and that will actually change that persons perception of the film. I myself have gone to the movies on occasion hoping to enjoy what was essentially a good movie, but that the audience at that particular showing is not very receptive. Perhaps some in the audience aren't paying attention (the cell phone crew and the talkers) or they just aren't as vocal as they could be (not laughing at the funny parts or not cheering at the appropriate moments. This seems to happen most often at the late show; maybe people are tired?) and God help you if you end up sitting next to one of those people who refuses to susbend disbelief not matter what kind of film they're seeing or how samll the infraction ("Oh, that could NEVER happen! Not even in the context of this film! WORST...MOVIE...EVER!). In these instances I have found myself really wanting to like a particular film, but just not being able to really invest emotionally; only to find that on second viewing I am better able to enjoy the movie because of the reactions of whomever I see it with. Case in point: How many of us have met someone who "saw Star Wars, but didn't see what was so great about it" only to have that person become a convert after we (being as passionate about it as we are) watch it with them? My point is that our appreciation of a given film can very easily, and often is, influenced by outside forces. I always try to be very objective about every film I see, and always hold of my impressions until after. We go to the movies to be entertained. I just wish we all would let that happen, and stop worrying what the critics say.

"No one should go to the movies unless he believes in heroes." - John Wayne

My theory is not airtight, but it IS my impression and I think it makes a lot of sense. I'd also like to add that (I think because of this) spoilers never spoil it for me, and while I take a films criticisms into account I never let it color my impressions of a film I haven't seen. The fun for me is in the journey not the destination.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
The main reason that IMO that TPM was disliked by many people was the flaw in continuity. I absolutley can't stand films that do not follow continuity. Midichlorians were poorly thought up and introduced at a time when they should not have been. Now is not the time to start making up stuff like that considering there is already a 20+ year history of them not being there. Plus the fact that the OT takes place AFTER TPM, makes it a little hard to explain them. This, by far, was the most horendous addition to the movie. There are also other inconsistencies with the OT such as, Why Tatooine? Surely if Luke was given to Anakins brother-in-law, then why doesn't Vader know about Luke and come after him sooner?

You make some valid points, but I have to disagree. I tend to think that there was not a 20= year history of midichlorians not being there, but that midichlorians just hadn't been mentioned during that time. It is not hard to think that Obi Wan and Yoda just didn't feel it neccessary to teach Luke about midichlorians. Really, what would it had served him to know? The three of them already knew Luke was very strong in the force; I don't think any of them would've deemed it neccessary to prove it. In fact, it's not hard to believe that they did teach him about it off camera (we all know Lukes training took a lot longer than the handful of moments we saw on screen). Sure you can all make the argument that we KNOW this didn't happen because uncle George hadn't thought of midichlorians during the original trilogy, but the fact is...he thought of it now. In my opinion it fits. Mind you, I'm not saying I particularly like the idea of midichlorians because I really think we could've done without this particular invention. The fact of the matter is this: as much as we want to make Star Wars ours, it really belongs to George. It's HIS story, and we can either choose to listen to it or not.
Why Tattooine? Why not? I think it's safe to assume to that, whatever occurs there in the next movie and in Episode 3, Anakin decides he NEVER wants to go back. If you had been born into slaver would you want to revisit that past? Regardless of what some fans are saying online, it is safe to assume that Anakin has NO clue that he even has children; therefore, why would he go looking for them? Yes, Owen is his step-brother, but by all accounts they spend probably less than ten minutes of screen time with each other (probably not more than a day or two in real time). Owen's father WAS married to Anakin's mother, but they are essentially strangers. I even have a theory about this regarding Luke keeping his father's name and being left in Owen's care that I will probably post later.
In my humble opinion, there really are no inconsistencies between the original trilogy and the prequels. I think all can be easily explained if you're willing to accept that you have no control over it. I enjoy quoting Joseph Campbell, so here goes: "We must be willing to give up the life (movie) have (want) in order that we may have the life (movie) that is waiting for us.";)

stillakid
04-09-2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

In fact, it's not hard to believe that they did teach him about it off camera

This is the exact reason why the entire concept of Midichlorians is bunk. I've mentioned it many times before and I'll do it again here...a movie is written not to impart information to the characters within it, rather to the audience that is watching it. Characters are not real people, rather they represent Points-of-View toward the primary theme or plotline of the story at hand.

So, to imply that a story element is valid because it might very well have been mentioned off-screen doesn't hold water within the context of storytelling.

Yes, let's assume for a brief moment that Star Wars is not fiction, rather a filmed and edited home movie of an actual event then there might be an argument for what you're suggesting. However, it isn't.

The audience is the target of any and all information that is necessary to express the desired story in as coherent a manner as possible.

Midichlorian's and Qui Gon Jinn were both absent from the established continuity of the original trilogy. In and of itself, that isn't a problem. Adding new and interesting elements to a growing story is part of the fun. However, any new elements must remain faithful to the established continuity or else the entire fabric of the tale is in peril.

bigbarada
04-09-2002, 04:38 PM
I agree that Midichlorians and Qui-Gonn are the two pieces of the puzzle that just don't fit right now when you consider the OT. But if you think about it, who was the only character in Ep1 who seemed to really believe in Midichlorians? Qui-Gonn.

The Jedi Council seemed less than impressed with Anakin's midi-count so who knows? Maybe something will be revealed in Ep2 or 3 to explain this.

odb
04-09-2002, 04:55 PM
I would like to think that the midichlorians theory is bunk. I would also like to think that Qui Gon invented the whole idea in order to help Anakin understand how he can harnass the force ( he is only nine years old after all). I think that would lend some credability to his character rather than putting the whole idea down at his character being mad and deluded.

Ep1 was not a traditional movie. It has similarities with LOTR in that it is the first part of a trilogy. Therefore plot, character development, continuity and story shouldn't really be judged until we've seen all three films, then we can hole pick or complain about unresolved issues.

P.S. I've finished ranting now please feel free to criticise.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


This is the exact reason why the entire concept of Midichlorians is bunk. I've mentioned it many times before and I'll do it again here...a movie is written not to impart information to the characters within it, rather to the audience that is watching it.

BUT...midichlorians were not a central part of the plot, but rather a plot device that in my opinion just wouldn't have required or even neccessarily warranted repeating if Lucas HAD made the entire saga in order. How many times during the original trilogy was it metioned that the Millenium Falcon made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs? After the first mention we got the impression that it was a pretty cool ship and Han was a pretty cool captain. I know most fans don't like the midichlorians, I'm not to keen on the idea myself, but they are there and we have to accept that. The monster really doesn't go away just because you close your eyes.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 05:35 PM
Now that I've spent so much time trying to debunk supposed inconsistencies, I'd like to bring up another point: If Jedi are not allowed to love, and midichlorians have to do with blood and are quite obviously passed on from father (and presumably mother) to child, then where do little Jedi babies come from? Learning that Jedi reproduce ONLY through artificial insemination would be too creppy for me!

SithDroid
04-09-2002, 05:39 PM
Okay, I've discussed the whole midichlorian thing in many other threads, so here I go again.

First, I'll quote the OT.

ANH
Luke: "The Force?"
Ben: "Well the Force is what gives a jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together."

ESB
Yoda: "For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it. Makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous bengs are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere. Yes, even between the land, and the ship."

Now TPM:
Anakin: "I've been wondering, what are midichlorians?"
Qui-Gon: "Midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms that reside within all living cells."
Anakin: "They live inside me?"
Qui-Gon: "Inside your cells, yes. And we are symbiants (sp?) with them."
Anakin: "Symbiants?"
Qui-Gon: "Lifeforms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midichlorians life couldn't exist and we would have no knowledge of the force. They continually speak to us telling us the will of the Force."
Anakin: "I don't understand?"
Qui-Gon: "When you learn to quiet your mind you'll hear them speaking to you."

Ok, now that I got that out of the way here goes the reasoning.

In ANH Luke straight up asks Obi-Wan what the force is and he replies with the quote above. Also Yoda adds to Obi-Wans description. If Midichlorians were the intent all along then why didn't Obi-Wan in ANH say, "Well the Force is created by these creatures that live inside of us. They talk to us and they form an energy field for all living things." SEE how corny that would sound. So does that mean that Obi-Wan and Yoda LIED to Luke? I don't think so, just GL trying to do some revising.

Also Yoda says Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. So how does that make sense seeing as the midichlorians are an ORGANIC LIFEFORM that reside within this CRUDE MATTER. I beleive Yoda was hinting at a persons "soul", so what are his views on the midichlorians then. That they are disgusting?

Also Qui-Gon says that without midiclorians that life couldn't exist. It seems to me that this would have been covered in some Biology class in the SW universe seeing as the midichlorians are the only reason anyone is alive. If they know what cells are, certainly they have microscopes to see these so called "midichlorians." I'm just trying to explain it the way GL intended it to be explained, using scientific reasoning.

I'm done for now.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
In ANH Luke straight up asks Obi-Wan what the force is and he replies with the quote above. Also Yoda adds to Obi-Wans description. If Midichlorians were the intent all along then why didn't Obi-Wan in ANH say, "Well the Force is created by these creatures that live inside of us. They talk to us and they form an energy field for all living things." SEE how corny that would sound. So does that mean that Obi-Wan and Yoda LIED to Luke? I don't think so, just GL trying to do some revising.

Also Yoda says Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. So how does that make sense seeing as the midichlorians are an ORGANIC LIFEFORM that reside within this CRUDE MATTER. I beleive Yoda was hinting at a persons "soul", so what are his views on the midichlorians then. That they are disgusting?

Also Qui-Gon says that without midiclorians that life couldn't exist. It seems to me that this would have been covered in some Biology class in the SW universe seeing as the midichlorians are the only reason anyone is alive. If they know what cells are, certainly they have microscopes to see these so called "midichlorians." I'm just trying to explain it the way GL intended it to be explained, using scientific reasoning.

I'm done for now.
Nothing in Phantom Menace states that midichlorians create the force, and it sounds to me that Qui-Gon explains to Anakin that they are what makes it possible for living things to INTERACT with the force. Again, Luke would not neccessarily have NEEDED to know this.

mark2d2
04-09-2002, 05:48 PM
Despite my many misgivings with TPM, I have never thought that the introduction of Qui Gonn and midichlorians in any way are problematic as far as continuity.

Why would Qui Gon be brought up? He's dead. Long gone. What's Obiwan going to say? "Actually, the guy who taught me the ways of the force bit it long ago, so I'm sending you to this Yoda guy. He's all that there is left..." Besides, Yoda DOES instruct Obiwan --- the scene where he and Yoda talk near the end implies that they are very aquainted with one another. And I think all the Jedi pass on what they have learned. It's not as if Qui Gon tutored Obiwan in a vacuum.

The same is true about midichlorians. What do you guys want? For Obiwan to test Luke with a blood sample? Why is that necessary? Besides, how do you know that they don't already do that in Episode III? Or that it is just a simple biological fact that the HIGH count is always passes on genetically. We don't know at this point.

It boogles me that people go on and on about this when they totally forgive the flawed script and crappy performances. There was a lot to get angry about with this film --- but these two issues just weren't that big of a deal to me. The reason I disliked TPM was that it was boring. Flat. And woefully predictable with characters that if they didn't bore me --- went massively out of their way to annoy me. JarJar and his me stepsa in da poodoo (lack there of) humor was the BIGGEST problem with the film.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 05:51 PM
I just had another idea. For those of you who read the New Jedi Order books...maybe the Yuuzhan Vong, coming from outside the galaxy, have NO midichlorians. That would explain why they have no presence in the Force; they are incappable of interacting with it! It would make sense, taking into consideration what we know of the Force from Yoda, Obi Wan, AND Qui-Gon, that all living things in the Star Wars galaxy have at least SOME midichlorians, and that Force users just have more (allowing them greater interaction with the force). Maybe Luke, as the Jedi Master in the New Jedi Order, is on the verge of discovering midichlorians and their role in the Force and the Jedi order. You have to admit that's an interesting notion.

stillakid
04-09-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

Nothing in Phantom Menace states that midichlorians create the force, and it sounds to me that Qui-Gon explains to Anakin that they are what makes it possible for living things to INTERACT with the force. Again, Luke would not neccessarily have NEEDED to know this.

Oh brother, how many times do we have to answer the same question?

Knowing what we know about the state of the galaxy and the near defunct Jedi in the OT, what would be the rationale for Obi Wan and Yoda to not tell Luke? Instead of using all of that wishy washy intangible language, they could've come right and told him that he's got a gazillion little things inside of him that are a direct conduit to his controlling the Force. Luke's the last Jedi for cryin out loud. Why put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy when they could have helped Luke get from point A to point B that much faster? Another silly bit of reasoning to rationalize their existence.

But, as mentioned, we are stuck with them throughout the prequels anyway. I'm sure that we'll hear the word at least once in Ep2 (and see Jar Jar as well:sur: ). He established a new line of reasoning with Ep I that doesn't jive with the OT. The only way out of it is to reedit IV, V, and VI.

One more thing, this little bit about The Lord of the Rings. It's not the first time we've seen this as an excuse for Lucas's mistake. What is it about being a single film in a series that excuses the filmmaker from creating a coherent script that is continuitous throughout? Ep I is a single film, existing on it's own and also as part of a greater whole. It has responsibility to both masters. So to write off bad filmmaking just because "everything will be explained later" is poor evaluation by anyone's standards.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 05:58 PM
Thanks mark2d2! You and I are definitely on the same wavelength here! Furthermore, Qui-Gon obviously knew that Anakin was very strong in the Force, and it seems he only tested his blood just to see HOW high his midichlorian count was (having known already that it would be quite high). Since Obi Wan could already sense Luke was very strong in the Force (not to mention having known who his father was) I doubt that if he'd tested Lukes blood and not found a high enough midichlorian count that he'd have said "Oops! Guess the galaxy doesn't have a new hope after all!". The simple fact as I see it is that midichlorians didn't matter in the context of the events of the original trilogy.

RooJay
04-09-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Oh brother, how many times do we have to answer the same question?

Knowing what we know about the state of the galaxy and the near defunct Jedi in the OT, what would be the rationale for Obi Wan and Yoda to not tell Luke? Instead of using all of that wishy washy intangible language, they could've come right and told him that he's got a gazillion little things inside of him that are a direct conduit to his controlling the Force. Luke's the last Jedi for cryin out loud. Why put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy when they could have helped Luke get from point A to point B that much faster? Another silly bit of reasoning to rationalize their existence.

But, as mentioned, we are stuck with them throughout the prequels anyway. I'm sure that we'll hear the word at least once in Ep2 (and see Jar Jar as well:sur: ). He established a new line of reasoning with Ep I that doesn't jive with the OT. The only way out of it is to reedit IV, V, and VI.

One more thing, this little bit about The Lord of the Rings. It's not the first time we've seen this as an excuse for Lucas's mistake. What is it about being a single film in a series that excuses the filmmaker from creating a coherent script that is continuitous throughout? Ep I is a single film, existing on it's own and also as part of a greater whole. It has responsibility to both masters. So to write off bad filmmaking just because "everything will be explained later" is poor evaluation by anyone's standards.
:crazed: I hope we're "discussing" here and not ARGUING! LOL
Stillakid, what you are saying is true...from a certain point of view, but I still believe it's quite obvious that even though Obi Wan had no reason NOT to tell Luke about midichlorians, he also had no reason TO tell him. It would not have helped Luke take down the Empire OR restore balance to the force. Remember, Qui-Gon only told Anakin about them because he asked.

SithDroid
04-09-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
It would not have helped Luke take down the Empire OR restore balance to the force. Remember, Qui-Gon only told Anakin about them because he asked.

Yeah, well Luke asked what the Force was and Obi-Wan didn't tell him about the midichlorians and their role. So what you just said doesn't hold water.

Originally posted by stillakid

Oh brother, how many times do we have to answer the same question?

Knowing what we know about the state of the galaxy and the near defunct Jedi in the OT, what would be the rationale for Obi Wan and Yoda to not tell Luke? Instead of using all of that wishy washy intangible language, they could've come right and told him that he's got a gazillion little things inside of him that are a direct conduit to his controlling the Force. Luke's the last Jedi for cryin out loud. Why put the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy when they could have helped Luke get from point A to point B that much faster? Another silly bit of reasoning to rationalize their existence.

But, as mentioned, we are stuck with them throughout the prequels anyway. I'm sure that we'll hear the word at least once in Ep2 (and see Jar Jar as well ). He established a new line of reasoning with Ep I that doesn't jive with the OT. The only way out of it is to reedit IV, V, and VI.

One more thing, this little bit about The Lord of the Rings. It's not the first time we've seen this as an excuse for Lucas's mistake. What is it about being a single film in a series that excuses the filmmaker from creating a coherent script that is continuitous throughout? Ep I is a single film, existing on it's own and also as part of a greater whole. It has responsibility to both masters. So to write off bad filmmaking just because "everything will be explained later" is poor evaluation by anyone's standards


I couldn't agree with you more stillakid, except for one little thing. The only way to fix this whole thing is to fix EP I. It would be a TON easier to get rid of the whole midichlorian issue there instead of messing with the OT. Plus I don't think the FANS would like the OT being messed with a second tme around. We already have a ton of people who hate the Greedo shot first part, so introducing the midichlorians in the OT would IMHO extremely upset the Fans, myself included.

The reason that midichlorians are bad idea is because it is just poor storytelling. stillakid and myself are both writers, so we notice the inconsistencies in the script. I always think about continuity in my stories and screenplays that I write. GL just DIDN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK. I'm tired of people making excuses for this. I notice it, so it bothers me. If other people can dismiss it, then more power to them, but I don't like it when the integrity of a story is jeopardized because someone forgot about continuity. If movies are supposed to reflect life, then how can life be non-consistent. I'm tired of debating this topic. It has been beaten to the ground over and over and over again. Let us drop the whole midichlorian issue. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.

Wolfwood319
04-09-2002, 06:36 PM
I've only read Vector Prime and bits and pieces of other NJO books, but that theory that the Vong don't have midichloreans actually makes quite a lot of sense now that I think about it.

I also agree with Mark2D2, Qui-Gon wouldn't have necissarily needed to be mentioned in the OT to explain his presence in TPM. I really agree with everything Roojay has said up until this point, so I won't reiterate on it.

One last thing; when telling a story out of order, as with Star Wars your given some freedom as to what you can tell with the past. Just because something isn't mentioned in the OT, doesn't mean it cannot exist in the prequels.

mark2d2
04-09-2002, 07:02 PM
As a fellow writer myself, I, too, was very disappointed by the lack of effort put towards the writing. It was just like nobody thought that it mattered. Which to me was sad. How could they not notice this on the set? I mean, come on! It must've been so obvious.

Sorry, but I know I could have "saved" The Phantom Menace. Frankly, though, that wouldn't have been that big of an accomplishment. Any aspiring writer with even the slightest trace of talent could have given that script a much needed polish.

It was just that bad. There was no wit. No humor. No tension. It was just there. I never thought I could be bored by a Star Wars film. But, well, I guess there really is a first time for everything.

stillakid
04-09-2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid

I couldn't agree with you more stillakid, except for one little thing. The only way to fix this whole thing is to fix EP I. It would be a TON easier to get rid of the whole midichlorian issue there instead of messing with the OT. Plus I don't think the FANS would like the OT being messed with a second tme around. We already have a ton of people who hate the Greedo shot first part, so introducing the midichlorians in the OT would IMHO extremely upset the Fans, myself included.

The reason that midichlorians are bad idea is because it is just poor storytelling. stillakid and myself are both writers, so we notice the inconsistencies in the script. I always think about continuity in my stories and screenplays that I write. GL just DIDN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK. I'm tired of people making excuses for this. I notice it, so it bothers me. If other people can dismiss it, then more power to them, but I don't like it when the integrity of a story is jeopardized because someone forgot about continuity. If movies are supposed to reflect life, then how can life be non-consistent. I'm tired of debating this topic. It has been beaten to the ground over and over and over again. Let us drop the whole midichlorian issue. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.

I made a request at some point to have Lucas recall all copies of TPM and start over again. That isn't about to happen, I'm afraid. :( I'm basing my predictions on the precedent that he has set with redoing past works (read: the original trilogy) Regardless of what concoctions he comes up with in the next two films, aside from TPM being a 2 hour dream sequence, the foundation that he has laid down will always conflict with the original trilogy until the day he alters one or the other (prequels or the original trilogy). They are mutually exclusive at this point and bear little resemblance to one another aside from the title and the opening scroll.

Tonysmo
04-09-2002, 10:01 PM
After reading all those posts, I just had to give my take.

I remember vividly when I first saw EP1. I was white knuckle gripping the seat in theater while Anikin raced that pod. It was the coolest movie of the year for me.
Now I have the DVD, before that I had the video, and before that, yes, a screener...

I knew walking into EP1 though that it was going to be classic Lucas film. We see the good guy, we meet the bad guy, we have a battle, they blow a deflector shield, good guys win... He has done that in every movie.
Did it bother me that Maul was introduced like a WWF character? yes. Does it bother me that Lucas put Mauls face on every freakin package to have him play 10 minutes in the film? yes. Did Jar Jar bother me? not really. Did it kill me to see an awesome actor such as Samuel Jackson do so poorly with being a Jedi? (please O please be better in EP2 ) I thought he showed WAY to much negative emotion when dealing with Jinn and Obiwan. Did it bother me that Anikin was virgin born? yeah, Lucas should know better..

so yes, even though there were parts that disturbed me I still think it was the coolest movie of the year.

lookit the positives of it. Did Ewing Mcgregor not play Obiwan FREAKIN EXCELLENT?? He sounded just like obiwan should have..


gee... I guess thats it huh?

well I STILL think it was an awesome movie..

( maybe somehow they can get legolas ( LOTR ) to play a role in EP3.. He was a bada## ) justa thought...

smo

bigbarada
04-09-2002, 11:05 PM
Here's how I see it, no one who hates midichlorians is going to be convinced to accept them on these forums. No one who likes or tolerates them is going to be convinced to hate them. So we should let a dead dog lie and move on.

I thoroughly enjoyed Ep1 upon first viewing and the other ten times I watched it in the theater. Each time I watched it, it was from a genuine interest in the film and amazement at what they were able to accomplish special effects wise. I really saw no problems with the story other than that it moved slower than other Star Wars films (but was nowhere near as boring as ROTJ). Even in the slow parts, we had Jar Jar to liven things up a little. And yes, I thought he was genuinely funny.

If someone likes TPM for whatever reason, whether it be because of the cool FX, the production design, or the story or characters, they should not be told that they are somehow wrong for liking it because it was "so obviously a flawed film." Not everyone sees or cares about the flaws.

Personally, I liked TPM for the characters and settings. Naboo is one of my favorite Star Wars locales and some of the most visually interesting characters in all of Star Wars come out of TPM, IMHO (Maul, Jar Jar, Sebulba, Watto, Queen Amidala, etc.)

However, I never really cared for Luke's whole journey in the OT, it was the most boring part of the saga. I was always more interested in what Han Solo or Darth Vader were doing.

One line in the OT that could be used in defense of midichlorians (even though everyone will say I am full of it:rolleyes: ):

Luke in ROTJ said to Leia, "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it, I have it, my....sister has it."

This to me always meant that the force was some kind of inherited trait and that not everyone had access to that trait. Thus midichlorians were not too much of a stretch when I first heard of them in Ep1. Soooo.......I like them! (quickly runs for cover)

stillakid
04-09-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Soooo.......I like them! (quickly runs for cover)

;)

bigbarada
04-10-2002, 12:43 AM
That's it, you're buying me a new Abba T-Shirt, stillakid!

:eek:

Oh wait...did I say "Abba?" I meant Iron Maiden, yeah.:)

RooJay
04-10-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid


Yeah, well Luke asked what the Force was and Obi-Wan didn't tell him about the midichlorians and their role. So what you just said doesn't hold water.

The reason that midichlorians are bad idea is because it is just poor storytelling. stillakid and myself are both writers, so we notice the inconsistencies in the script. I always think about continuity in my stories and screenplays that I write. GL just DIDN'T DO HIS HOMEWORK. I'm tired of people making excuses for this. I notice it, so it bothers me. If other people can dismiss it, then more power to them, but I don't like it when the integrity of a story is jeopardized because someone forgot about continuity. If movies are supposed to reflect life, then how can life be non-consistent. I'm tired of debating this topic. It has been beaten to the ground over and over and over again. Let us drop the whole midichlorian issue. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.

You're right...but as you stated Luke asked Obi Wan about the FORCE, not about midichlorians. Anakin asked SPECIFICALLY about midichlorians.
By the way, I happen to be a writer also, and I have absolutely no problem seeing how this does indeed work. Please don't be blinded by your biases about the concept of midichlorians. Both the OT AND Phantom Menace still hold up with midichlorians involved, and DO NOT contradict each other. Lucas should not have to alter either under any circumstance. Besides, as I've stated before, this is HIS vision. Would you demand some of the great historical works of art be altered because you didn't agree with portions of them? Lucas has decided that midichlorians have a place in HIS story, therefore we have no choice but to acknowledge them, OR just turn our heads. I could never imagine someone saying that the Sistine Chapel should be repainted because they don't believe in God, or that they don't like the look on the angel's faces.

stillakid
04-10-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by RooJay


You're right...but as you stated Luke asked Obi Wan about the FORCE, not about midichlorians. Anakin asked SPECIFICALLY about midichlorians.
By the way, I happen to be a writer also, and I have absolutely no problem seeing how this does indeed work. Please don't be blinded by your biases about the concept of midichlorians. Both the OT AND Phantom Menace still hold up with midichlorians involved, and DO NOT contradict each other. Lucas should not have to alter either under any circumstance. Besides, as I've stated before, this is HIS vision. Would you demand some of the great historical works of art be altered because you didn't agree with portions of them? Lucas has decided that midichlorians have a place in HIS story, therefore we have no choice but to acknowledge them, OR just turn our heads. I could never imagine someone saying that the Sistine Chapel should be repainted because they don't believe in God, or that they don't like the look on the angel's faces.

First I'd like to say that as a majority of my posts on these boards have involved the topic of Midichlorians, it seems only fitting that my 1000th post involve them.

Secondly, they DO contradict one another. There have been enough posts written about this by a variety of people and many writers included to make it a foregone fact. If someone chooses to find ways to rationalize their existence, that's all well and good, if it helps someone enjoy the saga more. I'm all for it. However, it doesn't alter the problems that were inherently created by their eleventh-hour introduction into the storyline. Suggesting that Obi Wan didn't tell Luke about them just because he didn't specifically ask is splitting hairs. So much of the original trilogy dialogue revolving around the Force does nothing to suggest the presence of these little buggers. At the very least, Yoda would have mentioned them at any point on Dagobah if Lucas had dreamed them up by 1978. It is excrutiatingly clear that he hadn't.

Yes, it is his saga, yes we have to live with any elements he decides to drop in there, but it doesn't necessarily make them all correct as you suggest. Let's suppose that a major element is dropped into Ep 2 or 3 that nobody hears about beforehand. You walk into the theater, the opening scroll goes by, then on board a flying saucer, John F. Kennedy walks through the door followed by Minnie Pearl. The flying saucer is chasing a Star Destroyer toward planet Earth which is orbited by a giant slice of American cheese. The rest of Boba Fett's family flies in to bombard the cheese with millions of those tie wrap things that keep our toys inside their packages. Minnie Pearl says "Howdiiiie," just before pushing a big red button on top of her R2 unit's head which detonates a bomb (one of those goofy cartoon ones with the wick on the top) that blows up the Fett clan.

By your account, we should all just accept it as Lucas's work and continue on happily eagerly awaiting the release on DVD.

SithDroid
04-10-2002, 10:27 PM
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wolfwood319
04-10-2002, 10:44 PM
I think that some people (no one in particular, mind you) are so hell bent on discussing Midichloreans to death, that in fact, its all they think of when they watch E1.

Look, everyone has the right to their own opinions. Some may think that midichloreans won't work, others don't have at a problem with it. Others like TPM and think its a good film, others hate it and say its a bad film.

I personally don't think that one can "prove" TPM is a "good" or "bad" film, because by definition, those terms are relative. I see why some people don't like it, and why others do.

I also personally believe that just because something isn't mentioned in one film, that it can't exist in a "prequel" if you will. I don't personallyl like the idea of midichloreans, but I don't see their inclusion into the film as its "major downfall," if you will.


If someone likes TPM for whatever reason, whether it be because of the cool FX, the production design, or the story or characters, they should not be told that they are somehow wrong for liking it because it was "so obviously a flawed film." Not everyone sees or cares about the flaws.

BigBarada had a good point here. But I'll take it one further. I believe that flaws aren't definate. If something is flawed, it is the basis of people's opinions, especially when it comes to art.

Obviously, as BB stated, no one is going to change their mind one way or the other because of reading some post. But I think its important for everyone to respect each others opinions. Almost everything posted on these forums are opinions, not facts. And no one person's opinions are facts, no matter how much they want them to be.

eliwankenobi
04-11-2002, 11:05 AM
wow, i never knew so many peops were so hell-bent about TPM over the midicloriwhatsits. yeah, it seems like some strange additional detail that GL decided to throw in to help "explain" the Force. Being a 25-year (wow! 25 years!!) SW fan, i thought i understood what the Force was all about through ben and yoda's explanations in the OT. Perhaps it was GL's reasoning that he needed to "explain" the force better, especially since TPM was diluted down to a be kiddie flick. yeah, it's inconsistant when compared to the OT, but whatever, it's GL's little bug.
if you want to rip on TPM, let's pick out some of the bigger issues:
obi-wan's constantly changing hair lengths
anakin's suddenly taller/shorter scenes
zombie-like background characters
sam jackson's mace windu stand-in
bad acting; bad dialogue; bad story
one of the most annoying things to me about TPM is how it's not the "beginning" as we all expected, but rather a point in which we're all dropped into another "in progress" story just like the OT. i'd like to see a back-story that explains the purpose of the trade federation; where sidious came from; why naboo was blockaded; etc.
to me, TPM was just a jumbled mass of coinsidences to establish key players. it didn't seem to have any point. the basic elements of any story is problem/solution. look at SW: rebels good, empire bad. it was established why the rebels were good and why the empire was bad. in the end, good won over bad. in TPM: naboo: ? trade federation: ? was the trade federation good or bad, and why? why was naboo blockaded, and what might they have done to provoke it? why was the chancellor so ignorant of said problem (??) in the senate meeting if it was he that dispatched the jedi in the beginning to broker a deal? why is anakin a slave? why tatooine? how convenient was that pod race the day after they landed with problems? why was there no dialogue between darth maul and obi-wan/gui-gon? i would think a jedi would ask a stranger why they're trying to kill them. and how evident is it that TPM follows the EXACT SAME story formula as ROTJ?
ok, i'm done.
despite all my grumblings, i'm eagerly awaiting AOTC. it is my simple hope that depsite the shortcomings of TPM, E2 will make us care about the characters and take us all back to the SW galaxy that we all feel we're a part of in one way or another.

RooJay
04-11-2002, 02:32 PM
Just because a lot of people have written about how they don't like and don't think midichlorians should have been included doesn't make it truth. My argument speaks for itself. Like I've stated before, you are letting your own bias preclude the fact that there is absolutely no contradiction where midichlorians are concerned. Please remember, even I don't like the idea of their inclusion, but your arguments that they are out of place have NO validity whatsoever. I think if you look back, uncloud your mind, and actuallt READ what I have been saying all along, you will find that the points I have made regarding the subject ALL hold water. I'm not debating whether or not including midichlorians was a good idea, and I am, by no means, making up excuses for them having been included; what I am trying to say is that the do indeed fit into the story, and Lucas would not have to alter a single line of dialog in the original trilogy in order to intergrate the concept. YES, Phantom Menace had it's problems (I wholeheartedly agree!). YES, MANY fans thought midichlorians was a bad idea (I second that notion!), but the facts remain that midichlorians DO fit into what we know of the Force; regardless of our distaste. I'm with Eliwan, let's talk about some of the movie's REAL problems.

To address some of what Wolfwood has stated: I am not debating whether or not Phantom Menace is a bad film. Truly, that is subjective. What I am debating is that the idea of midichlorians somehow contradicts the original trilogy. This is obviously not the case. I dare anybody to actually take my previous posts into consideration and then explain to me where the contradiction lies. Please, keep in mind that whil you may think Phantom Menace failed as a film or succeeded, you may think midichlorians is the stupidest idea ever invented by man, but nothing we've been told about midichlorians even remotely contradicts what we've been told in the original trilogy. I'm with eliwan, let's talk about some of the movie's REAL problems.

If all else fails: let's just all be happy friends and fellow fans, and let's just agree to disagree, and then let's get back to eagerly awaiting Attack of the Clones.

SithDroid
04-11-2002, 03:22 PM
This debate has gone on too long in other threads so no need to keep re-iterating the same thing over and over and to argue about this topic more than has already been stated.

Can a moderator please close this thread?

bigbarada
04-11-2002, 05:03 PM
Let's look at what is considered a "good" film. The Godfather, won all kinds of awards and is considered to be one of the greatest movies of all time. Did I like it? Not really.

Ep1, bashed by almost every critic on the face of the earth, nominated for the worst sequel/prequel of all time. Did I like it? No, I loved it!

I could care less what some critic or screenwriter says about the "foregone facts" of TPM's flaws. When it all boils down to it, it is opinion and that's one thing you can't really argue.

I think this discussion is still relevent, SithDroid, especially since we are discussing possible fears for Ep2. That hinges greatly on what people thought of Ep1.

mark2d2
04-11-2002, 06:42 PM
The problem with The Phantom Menace isn't that it doesn't measure up to "good" films --- it's that it doesn't (in my opinion) even come close to measuring up to the original Star Wars Trilogy. It is lacking in nearly every respect. The special effects are overblown and (again in my opinion) not nearly as great at Lucasfilm would like to believe. I'll take Greedo in a rubber mask any day to a CGI Watto. I'm sorry --- but to me, Watto is way too cartoon like. Yoda never looked like a puppet to me. Watto looks like he out to be in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. And so do alot of the creatures that were in the most recent trailer.

I hope that I am wrong.

stillakid
04-11-2002, 06:46 PM
Taking a look at your post count, Roojay, I didn't take into account that you joined this discussion only recently, so I apologize for assuming that you were up to speed on all the arguments to the contrary. I went through the Forum search engine to find links to the many many many posts and threads concerning this topic but couldn't find them for some reason. If anyone else can help out with that, it would be great.

In any case, I don't want to run on too long with the pros and cons, as this isn't the thread for Midi's anyhow, but I'll do my best to summarize just why the concept of Midichlorians so clearly flies in the face of saga continuity. I'm sure I'll forget to include some of the great arguments that others thought of, so feel free to chime in.

The best place to begin is with ANH. There are two primary scenes in the first film where Midi's should have been mentioned plus a couple others that draw confusion because of their sudden inclusion into the storyline. The first two scenes to talk about are Ben and Luke discussing the Force on Tatooine and Ben and Luke again talking about it onboard the Falcon. The first problem is that Old Ben knows that the galaxy is in trouble. There are no more viable Jedi left. The "only hope" is Luke. Knowing that they don't have a lot of time to train the boy and that, presumably, a meeting between father and son is inevitable, it is highly unlikely that Old Ben wouldn't give Luke all the tools necessary to get him from naive farmboy to fully trained Jedi in as little time as possible. Old Ben says, "Search your feelings," which is about as undefined a learning tool as you could get. Why not just explain that there are little microscopic organisms (symbiotes) that can help facilitate the manipulation of the Force? This particular problem does not illustrate direct contradiction, but it is the first nail in the coffin as it is evidence to show that Lucas only recently dreamed Midichlorians up.

The best proof of Midichlorians being contradictory comes in ESB when Yoda describes the Force in a beautiful speech. This is Luke's training period, yet not once, never even alluded to, was the concept of Midichlorians. Why would that be? You could (and some have) opt to rationalize it by saying that he explained it all "offscreen." Supposing that is true, it's just poor storytelling skills if that were the case. But judging from the rest of the explanation that Lawrence Kasdan wrote, I doubt that he would have intentionally gone that route. He's just too good of a writer to make a lame decision like that.

But does their not being mentioned serve as proof of contradiction? Not exactly, but it should be enough for anyone. Luckily (?) we don't need to rely on those examples to prove the silliness of Midichlorians.

ALL of the interviews (print and tv) done pre 1990's of philosophers, critics, and Lucas himself, described the tale as standard hero epic. A young naive farmboy yearns for greatness and through a series of misadventures, is swept into a fantastic quest and ultimately saves the galaxy. It was designed so that anyone could aspire to be Luke. He was just like us, ordinary. But because of his internal fortitude, that he didn't know he had, he overcame great peril, external and internal, to become a hero and redeem his fallen father.

With the introduction of Midichlorians, all of that was blown out of the water. Now, instead of being ordinary, Luke is a super-human. He's got an advantage that none of us are capable of. It wasn't his internal strength that led him to success. He had help. From what? Billions of microscopic parasites who act as middlemen to the Force. You can't use the Force if you don't have enough of them. Everything that Yoda said about becoming a Jedi is misleading. It has nothing to do with "feeling the Force flow through you." Who needs that? All you gotta do is talk to your little friends.

sigh. There's tons more, and better written in all of those "lost" threads, but I'm not feeling particularly convincing at the moment. :) I'll keep looking for those other threads and maybe someone else can help. I recall one particularly humorous thread that we had going in which we rewrote the OT dialogue as it will have to be redone in order to make it all make sense. If only I could find it...

But, ultimately, if you want to take them at face value, then go ahead if that's what makes it remain enjoyable for you. The rest of us came to expect more from the saga and were disappointed by such an obvious lapse.

Since THX-1138, which was also panned by critics, TPM was the first script that Lucas decided to write without help from anyone. He just isn't a great writer. I remain cautiously optimistic that Ep II will be better as a movie because he brought Jonathan Hale as co-writer. GL obviously took heed of the criticism he received and quickly figured out how to avoid it for AOTC. But he's still established a weak foundation for the next two films. Alas, we'll see how it goes.

mark2d2
04-11-2002, 06:53 PM
Again, Stillakid, I think that is plausible to assume that such a conversation could occur off camera. There is a lot of time when this could be brought up. In the landspeeder on the way to Mos Eisley for example. To have Ben explain all about Midi's to Luke on camera would be repetitious to the audience and well dull.

I am also biased -- because, frankly, the whole midichlorians/virgin birth are ideas I'd rather just forget which is easy since I always skip the ENTIRE tattooine portion of Episode I.

Heck, I may just Lop TPM out the story all together. As far as I am concerned, the Saga can just as well begin with Episode II -- if that one is good. Episode I is just . . . well . . . kind of pointless.

stillakid
04-11-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2


I am also biased -- because, Frankly, the whole midichlorians/virgin birth are ideas I'd rather just forget which is easy since I always skip the ENTIRE tattooine portion of Episode I.



That's funny! That's usually the time I get up to make a sandwich. :) Funny thing is, when I get back, I haven't missed anything.

I eagerly await the technology to reedit TPM into something watchable. I might have to include a couple of digitized scenes of my own making to bridge the gaps (scenes that should've been in there in the first place).

My biggest frustration is that it was sooooo close to being good. If he would've just given it to, well, just about anybody, they would've questioned all the problems and streamlined that 2 hour mistake into a decent compadre to the OT. Oh well....

mark2d2
04-11-2002, 07:05 PM
Did you ever see The Phantom Edit? I never did, but from what I heard all of the changes were ones that I had thought of as well. I'd still love to check it out sometime.

stillakid
04-11-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
Did you ever see The Phantom Edit? I never did, but from what I heard all of the changes were ones that I had thought of as well. I'd still love to check it out sometime.

No. Couldn't find it. It'll resurface someday, if I don't make one in the meantime. But if he includes Midi's in EP II and III, I've got alot of work to do. And I have to someone remove Qui Gon Jinn and give poor Obi Wan all his history back.

stillakid
04-11-2002, 08:06 PM
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I am exceptionally curious about this new "it happened offscreen" defense that has recently popped up. Could someone please explain just why this would be considered as a valid filmmaking technique to explain incongrueties?

For instance, the hero in the new version of Rollerball, skates around the entire time without his chinstrap fastened. This wouldn't appear to be a big deal, except that a major plot point is that another player has his chinstrap intentionally cut by the bad guys ane that ultimately leads to his death. So on the surface, this appears to be a goof, however, if we were to take this recent line of reasoning, we might concoct a "missing" scene in which our hero is given special dispensation from properly securing his headgear and that no one on the court will take advantage of the situation. Stupid, huh. That's what I thought. Why should it work for TPM then?

signed
Just Wondering in the Catskills.

SithDroid
04-11-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I am exceptionally curious about this new "it happened offscreen" defense that has recently popped up. Could someone please explain just why this would be considered as a valid filmmaking technique to explain incongrueties?

I agree stillakid. To assume that something happened off screen is poor editing. If mystically somewhere out there there is a lost scence from 1977 with Ben and Luke sdiscussing the midichlorians, then I'd like to see it, but there isn't because IMO midichlorians were recently thought up by GL.

Also one more point I'd like to make. If Darth Vader is mostly machine and your midichlorian count determines how well you use the force, then he probably desn't have 75% of the midichlorians he used to have. So that means that he probably has the same amount as Han Solo or Lando Calrissian. If so, then he shouldn't be able to use the force at all.

One of the main reasons the OT is so good is because the Force has a sort of wizard/magician type element to it. And GL has stated in many interviews that he based the Jedi off of them. So it only makes sense that it is "mystical" and undefined. I don't hear people here talking about how Gandalf uses magic. He is a magician, and our preconceived notions of magicians are defined for us by fantasy type stories. We don't say to ourselves while watching LOTR, how does Gandalf do that? We just assume he can do it because he is a magician.

Debate it as much as you will, mdichlorians were a bad idea and
poor storytelling.

RooJay
04-12-2002, 12:18 AM
ONCE AGAIN...Stillakid, I am not trying to debate that midichlorians was a good idea. What I am trying to impress is that, in spite of your arguments to the contrarty, they to mesh flawlessly (in MY opinion) with everything in the OT. I think the points I have made support this 100%. I DO NOT like the idea of midichlorians, but they ARE NOT contradictory.


Originally posted by stillakid
"...it is highly unlikely that Old Ben wouldn't give Luke all the tools necessary to get him from naive farmboy to fully trained Jedi in as little time as possible." "...evidence to show that Lucas only recently dreamed Midichlorians up."

...but exactly how do you suppose this information would've helped Luke? Sell it to me.


Originally posted by stillakid
"...we don't need to rely on those examples to prove the silliness of Midichlorians."

I AGREE with you...midichlorians are silly!


Originally posted by stillakid
"With the introduction of Midichlorians, all of that was blown out of the water. Now, instead of being ordinary, Luke is a super-human. He's got an advantage that none of us are capable of. It wasn't his internal strength that led him to success. He had help. From what? Billions of microscopic parasites who act as middlemen to the Force. You can't use the Force if you don't have enough of them. Everything that Yoda said about becoming a Jedi is misleading. It has nothing to do with "feeling the Force flow through you." Who needs that? All you gotta do is talk to your little friends."

You are absolutely, 100% right about this! I agree with you with every fiber of my being. This is EXACTLY the reason that I do not like the idea of midichlorians, but it is too late for that now...the movie has already been made and they DO exist.

...and with that, I close my argument. Thank you for engaging me in this discussion, and I look forward to discussing all aspects of Star Wars with you in these forums in the future!:happy:

bigbarada
04-12-2002, 12:38 AM
Luke was never just an ordinary kid, this was made clear time and again in the OT. Not through words but through Luke's actions. GL stated that he always intended for the use of the Force to be more akin to genetics, thus the introduction of the midis in Ep1.

Does he have any proof that this was his idea way back in 1973? Probably not. It was probably just a seed of an idea that didn't take shape until he was writing Ep1 in 1994. I really don't believe that midis existed in GL's mind at all in the OT; but he saw a need to include them in the PT. I don't know why just yet; but I am willing to wait until I see Ep2 and 3 before I decide if they were a good idea.

The main reason I didn't like the Force as a kid was because it was all just a little too mystical and magical for me. So, in my case, the midichlorians are a welcome change to ground Force powers in reality a little.

At this point, however, I could care less whether the prequels jive with the OT or not. Mainly because the prequels are doing a much better job with what Star Wars is really all about. Flashy special effects, big action packed battles and amazing production design.

The story is really not all that important to me; but it really bothers me to hear someone proclaim as "fact" that the midichlorians were a bad idea and Ep1 was a bad movie. That's just blatant stupidity.

SithDroid
04-12-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
The main reason I didn't like the Force as a kid was because it was all just a little too mystical and magical for me. So, in my case, the midichlorians are a welcome change to ground Force powers in reality a little.

At this point, however, I could care less whether the prequels jive with the OT or not. Mainly because the prequels are doing a much better job with what Star Wars is really all about. Flashy special effects, big action packed battles and amazing production design.

The story is really not all that important to me; but it really bothers me to hear someone proclaim as "fact" that the midichlorians were a bad idea and Ep1 was a bad movie. That's just blatant stupidity.

I have to disagree with you here bigbarada. SW shouldn't be about flashy special effects. I loved the OT WAY better than what I've seen in TPM and what little I've seen of AOTC from the trailers. Plus most of the CGI characters look awful. Give me a puppet any day of the week over these things. However I think SW has turned into, "Let's show off what we can do with our special effects," instead of telling a great story.

I loved the Force when I was a kid. Every child dreams about having some kind of super powers, so that appealed to me.

As for the story, well for some of us the story is very important. Many hollywood movies that have horrible scripts and do a bad job of telling a story don't do well at the box office. But when it comes to SW, guaranteed to be a huge blockbuster due to its fan base, then the story should be of a higher quality. All of the stupid kiddy jokes and JarJar didn't belong in the film. Heck, I'd take the midichlorians in the film if they got rid of Jar Jar, but that isn't going to happen. As far as TPM being better than the OT, not in a million years IMO. I could watch the OT all day long, but when it comes to TPM the only part that made the movie worth seeing was the lightsaber duel at the end of the movie. Of course these are just my opinions.

mark2d2
04-12-2002, 01:58 AM
I've said this before -- but I'll say it again. Lucas once said that the special effects were just a mere tool in telling the story. But now, it turns out that the story is just a mere tool to tell special effects. And frankly, as a fan, I deserved a heck of a lot more than that.

RooJay
04-12-2002, 02:09 AM
"WERE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!" - Maximus

Wolfwood319
04-12-2002, 02:19 AM
I also had the conceived notion that, even before midis were introduced, one had a certain amount of "force power" inherent within them. Luke WAS indeed special, because he was stronger in the Force than most people. Not everyone can grow up to become what he had become. Like his line in ROTJ "The Force is strong in my family." I always assumed that his Force strength was inherited from his father.

So I guess in a way I always thought the Force was somewhat genetic, in the fact that it is involved with heredity, and it could be measured. Not everyone could become a Jedi, only if you were born with strong enough Force Powers. That's how I always believed it before the prequels, anyway.

stillakid
04-12-2002, 08:13 AM
True. With words like "the Force is strong in my family" the entire concept smacks of genetics, but that's only one piece of the puzzle. By infecting this particular galaxy with Midichlorians, we are no longer dealing with a humanity that we here on Earth can fully empathize with. The problem with that is that in most cases, the best literature (fiction) in our history, has dealt with topics that ordinary people can relate to in some manner. So, while Luke Skywalker may have a tendency towards being able to tap into the Force more than others, just like Johann Sebastian Bach was able to create music that many of us can't, the Original Trilogy painted a beautiful picture that connected living beings and this force that exists just beyond our perception.

As with Yoga, or martial arts, or just meditation, we were led to believe that anyone was capable of achieving a certain level of proficiency in manipulation of the Force. Becoming a Jedi involved much more than that. Manipulating the Force was just a part of it. Having the internal peace to "not follow the dark path" and such was important because possessing what seems to be "magical powers" could be extremely tempting to those who would use it for selfish reasons.

So now, we have the situation where this galaxy far far away has Midichlorians and we here on Earth do not. Yes, this is fiction, I get it. However, like I said, great fiction refers back to us and allows us the opportunity to "feel" with the characters. It becomes difficult to relate to this young naive farmboy now that we know it wasn't his training or skill that brought him success, rather an advantage to such great extent that absolutely no one watching the story could aspire to have on their own.

Not to debate the merits of this particular film, but The Last Starfighter achieved this goal perfectly. The hero was a nobody living in a trailerpark. Just like Luke, he aspired for something better. His own skill and determination to be the best launched him into a greater adventure than anyone could ever imagine, and just like Luke (the parallels are astounding) manages to save the galaxy from certain doom. Up until TPM, the primary themes were practically identical. Ordinary kid. Danger. Success. Alex Rogan, in The Last Starfighter, didn't use pixie dust (Peter Pan), a magic feather (Dumbo), or Midichlorians (TPM) to achieve greatness. He didn't need to. The story was great enough and (potentially) inspired other little kids sitting in trailer parks around the world to work hard and get out of there. The Luke Skywalker story used to do that. But what farm kid out there has Midichlorians helping him out?

Wolfwood319
04-12-2002, 08:35 AM
See, I never thought that anyone could aspire to the same level of "Force Wielding and inner piece" as Luke because that's what made him special. He really wasn't an "everyguy" but a very unique individual who had powers that even he didn't know of yet. More in tune with a young Superman, than let's say a Last Starfighter.

I always envisioned the "Force" as this power than one can learn how to wield. However, not just anyone could learn how to wield it, you had to be "strong'' in the Force. So no matter how hard you tried to learn to control the Force, unless you were strong in it, like Anakin, Luke, etc. you wouldn't be able to learn it at all. You either have the capability, or you don't. Its not like learning to add and subract, which everyone can learn to do.

That's how I always saw it anyway.

bigbarada
04-12-2002, 12:54 PM
When GL was writing Star Wars he studied ancient mythology and drew from those archetypes. If you think about the most well-known characters from those ancient stories, they were always portrayed as being lightyears beyond what any human could hope to achieve in a million lifetimes. Hercules, Thor, Beowulf, Apollo, etc. I just always assumed that Luke was intended to be one of these "beyond any mortal man" characters. He was never just a simple farmboy, he was the son of a great Jedi Knight. Anyway, that's how I always saw it.

I understand your point of view, stillakid, and how the inclusion of the midichlorians would destroy the most important part of the saga for you. All I can say is maybe something will be revealed in Ep2 or 3 to help restore the prequels in your eyes.

The Last Starfighter was a great movie though wasn't it?

SithDroid, I would be remiss if I were to say that the story elements of Star Wars didn't move me in any way. I considered Vader just your average, everyday, two-dimensional villian. When I heard about his sacrifice in ROTJ, he became so much more. He became a parable for salvation, something that I find very uplifting given my religious beliefs. However, what draws me to every Star Wars film initially is the big battles. For Ep2, I am most anticipating that huge Geonosis battle, because it looks to be mindblowing.

Maybe since I empathize with Vader's redemption from darkness much more than Luke's quest for glory, I don't really see how the inclusion of midichlorians affects the story that terribly.

In retrospect, though, you all could be right. The midis could simply be an "oops, I screwed up" from Lucas. I don't believe for a minute that it was always his intention to have Padme start out as a queen then get downgraded to a senator. Either he realized he had written himself into a corner with E1 or Naboo has the goofiest system of government in the galaxy. Electing a 14 year old girl to a four-year-term as queen is not the government of an enlightened planet. It's the government of a bunch of morons, no wonder they were conquered so easily! Wussies!

RooJay
04-12-2002, 04:53 PM
One could also argue that this galaxy far, far away has the Force and we do not. If regular kids can imagine they have the Force then why would it be so hard for them to imagine they also have midichlorians?

stillakid
04-12-2002, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
One could also argue that this galaxy far, far away has the Force and we do not. If regular kids can imagine they have the Force then why would it be so hard for them to imagine they also have midichlorians?

Because we have tested our own blood supply and found nothing of the kind. Despite the discussion about what is fact and what isn't :), we know for a fact that we do not have Midichlorians in our blood. As far as whether or not there really is a Force is something to be yet determined by science. Our knowledge of the physical properties of the universe is extremely limited, so that leaves the possibility open that some kind of Force-like energy exists out there.

But, those topics really aren't what's important when dealing with this hero epic. If an author of any story wants the audience to relate to the hero, the hero has to remain as true to humanity as possible. One of the discussions (that I can't find) in the past threads brought up the Superman vs. Batman question. While Superman is admirable, and what kid wouldn't want to be like him, he possesses powers that are unattainable. This makes Superman simply someone to admire from afar. Batman however, while loaded with the power of money, is someone that can be emulated. He has no magic beans to pave his way for him. Human virtues, like belief in himself and being on the side of truth, (plus loads of cash), give him all the "superpower" he needs to fight crime.

Luke was given some magic beans in TPM whereas, before, he was much more like Batman, relying on his own internal strengths and human abilities.

SithDroid
04-12-2002, 05:47 PM
Do the midichlorians get mad when they get killed, (ex arms getting sliced off)?:D :crazed:

stillakid
04-12-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Do the midichlorians get mad when they get killed, (ex arms getting sliced off)?:D :crazed:


Ah, you've made a good point that I'd forgotten about. What is the intelligence level of these lil' guys?

Qui Gon says something like, "listen to what they tell you," or some lame sh** like that. So does that mean that the bad guys have "bad" Midichlorians and the good guys have "good" Midichlorians? If they were just benign neutral creatures serving simply as a conduit for the host to manipulate the Force, then why would Qui Gon say such a thing? The Midi's apparently communicate to the host something which implies a conscious intelligence.

silly.

Wolfwood319
04-12-2002, 06:09 PM
I always assumed Qui-Gon was speaking metaphorically, like when a nature guru says ''listen to the trees'' or something of that nature. I never believed that the Midis actually talked, and it wasn't presented in that way, at least IMO.

And again, even before TPM and Midis were introduced, I always thought of Luke as one with special powers that no one can emulate. I never assumed that anyone can become attuned to the force by "practicing real hard."

As for Padme going from Queen to Senator; I relate to it towards the US's government as a Governor becoming a Senator. As a Queen she could only do so much, as a Senator, she represented Naboo to the rest of the Galaxy. As for a 14 year old elected Queen- well, there are wierder governments and beliefs in other countries.:rolleyes:

SithDroid
04-12-2002, 10:40 PM
The only reason Amidala was made a senator was so that GL could relocate her to Coruscant which also happens to be the place of the Jedi Council and the Jedi Temple etc.. where Anakin is training. He came up with this so that he could "conveniently" find a way to have Anakin and Amidala around each other constantly in order for their relationship to begin. Kind of lame writing if you ask me. But then again this all goes back to EP I again.

bigbarada
04-12-2002, 11:26 PM
Just like how Leia programmed Artoo with a secret message for Obi-Wan and it just "conveniently" lands in the lap of her long-lost brother? Say what you want, but lame writing has been a part of Star Wars since the OT.

Qui-Gonn's description of the midichlorians was obviously very simplified, otherwise it might have taken up half the movie to describe the process in which they link a person to the Force. No one in the films ever stated that the midichlorians created the Force. That was made up by someone who decided to hate them without at least thinking them through first. (not you stillakid, you've obviously thought them through, our opinions of their usefullness just differs)

My real question is this, now that the prequels have completely shifted the focus of the saga from Luke to Anakin, how do midis inclusion affect the story of the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker? Seeing as how they were introduced at the beginning of Anakin's story, I don't think they will affect it one way or the other.

Who knows, maybe Count Dooku will reveal that he lied to Qui-Gonn about their function. Sure they exist, hence their ability to be scanned by any onboard medical computer; but their exact connection to the Force is unknown (they might simply be by-products of the Force).

As for the CG vs. rubber mask aliens: I'm sorry but I'll take CG aliens anyday, and twice on Thursday. I just can't look at rubber masks anymore without cringing at how crappy they look. The Niemoidians were supposedly the state of the art; but they paled in comparison to the fluidity of the CG aliens, IMO. Think about it, if GL had decided to stick with traditional methods, Ep1 would have end up looking like The Fifth Element.

If you ever have a chance to read the OT Annotated Screenplays, you'll see that GL's original ideas for Star Wars was much grander than what was possible in 1977. Thus I can see his frustration with the films and when I watch Ep1 and the trailers to Ep2, I get an idea of what GL had in mind for Star Wars all along.

SithDroid
04-12-2002, 11:41 PM
I'm not saying that you shouldn't like the CGI characters and such, but for me I have always prefered puppets. Puppets are physically in the space and IMO look much better than a CGI character that is added later on. Although I must admit that the new CGI Yoda looks pretty amazing. Now if they could only redo the cr*ppy looking Jabba for TPM and the Special Editions.

stillakid
04-13-2002, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Just like how Leia programmed Artoo with a secret message for Obi-Wan and it just "conveniently" lands in the lap of her long-lost brother? Say what you want, but lame writing has been a part of Star Wars since the OT.

True! In one of my writing "training manuals" the author wisely says that the audience will always forgive you for coincidences that get your hero into trouble, never for those that get him out of trouble. I think that duration between events can get some credit for people not cringing, specifically in the R2 plans situation. The amount of time between R2 getting the information and finally delivering it was sufficient enough to make it not seem, well, so convenient. But, yeah, on the whole, this is a very tidy story, which I think it should be. It's a nice fairy tale and would be too, I don't know, realistic(?) if it had a ton of loose ends hanging around all over the place.



Originally posted by bigbarada

Qui-Gonn's description of the midichlorians was obviously very simplified, otherwise it might have taken up half the movie to describe the process in which they link a person to the Force. No one in the films ever stated that the midichlorians created the Force. That was made up by someone who decided to hate them without at least thinking them through first. (not you stillakid, you've obviously thought them through, our opinions of their usefullness just differs)

Thanks! I agree and understand how Qui Gon suggested the process by which Jedi's communicate with the Force. I'm not sure where that idea came from, that Midi's were the Force. Probably from me, actually, unintentionally. I think that my first post ever concerning these little guys was asking for clarification about the nature of them. I recall asking if Vader's Midi's talked Motti's Midi's into closing off the poor guy's windpipe. Apparently not, as it was explained to me, but I may have unwittingly planted the seed.



Originally posted by bigbarada

My real question is this, now that the prequels have completely shifted the focus of the saga from Luke to Anakin, how do midis inclusion affect the story of the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker? Seeing as how they were introduced at the beginning of Anakin's story, I don't think they will affect it one way or the other.

For me, the primary question arises out of Qui Gon's description of them, in TPM. He tells Ani to listen to them. Apparently they will speak to their host and "tell them the will of the Force" or some kind of nonsense like that. If that is the case, we are to surmise that Midi's are not neutral, rather are good or bad. So the Skywalker clan is inherently infected with bad Midi's and the Yoda family has good Midi's. It all sounds so ridiculous which is just one of the many reasons I have problems with the whole concept. But running with this line of reasoning, as set-up by Lucas himself (not me!), how does Anakin get bad ones then overcome their "will" and how does Luke end up with "good" ones, almost succumb to "bad" ones, then shake them off to follow the right path again? That short explanation by Qui Gon really throws the entire OT out of whack in terms of character motivations and intentions.



Originally posted by bigbarada

Who knows, maybe Count Dooku will reveal that he lied to Qui-Gonn about their function. Sure they exist, hence their ability to be scanned by any onboard medical computer; but their exact connection to the Force is unknown (they might simply be by-products of the Force).

I have successfully avoided any info about this Count fella except for hearing his name on occasion, so I can't comment about that. Clearly, as evidenced by TPM, Midi's unfortunately do exist, but unless Lucas decided to see the light and backtrack on the entire concept, it seems necessary that they do exactly what Qui Gon claimed they do. Otherwise, it would be silly for Yoda himself to, not only have had his Midi's counted, but published in the Jedi newsletter for public consumption.

Then there is that Force-exhaust Theory to think of...:sur: Although I have yet to figure out just what value that would have as a major plot element for this story.


Originally posted by bigbarada

As for the CG vs. rubber mask aliens: I'm sorry but I'll take CG aliens anyday, and twice on Thursday. I just can't look at rubber masks anymore without cringing at how crappy they look. The Niemoidians were supposedly the state of the art; but they paled in comparison to the fluidity of the CG aliens, IMO. Think about it, if GL had decided to stick with traditional methods, Ep1 would have end up looking like The Fifth Element.

I don't mind either, just so long as they're not mixed within the same shot. The differences are just way too obvious at this point. The all CG characters in Jabba's Palace placed side by side with mask people is hideous. The same goes for the Pod Race starting line and audience sequence. I tend to prefer real masks to CG, only because too often the CG actually looks 2D and on the cartoony side. Bad masks are terrible, but a fully realized creature beats out CG anyday when you take into account articulation, paint job, lighting, and aesthetic style.



Originally posted by bigbarada

If you ever have a chance to read the OT Annotated Screenplays, you'll see that GL's original ideas for Star Wars was much grander than what was possible in 1977. Thus I can see his frustration with the films and when I watch Ep1 and the trailers to Ep2, I get an idea of what GL had in mind for Star Wars all along.

I too understand his frustration, however, history has shown repeatedly that the more a filmmaker has to struggle to get his project done, the better it ultimately is. Take Jaws, for instance. Everyone knows that the robot didn't work, which forced the film to take on a more "horror of the unknown" approach than a true "let's see it create gore" path. Suffice it to say, that film arguably started the studio craze to create summer blockbusters. So while Lucas now has the tools to create everything his heart desires, the challenge is completely gone, and with it, I'm afraid, is that creative spark that leads a filmmaker to a greater end than even he could imagine.

2-1B
04-13-2002, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid
The only reason Amidala was made a senator was so that GL could relocate her to Coruscant which also happens to be the place of the Jedi Council and the Jedi Temple etc.. where Anakin is training. He came up with this so that he could "conveniently" find a way to have Anakin and Amidala around each other constantly in order for their relationship to begin. Kind of lame writing if you ask me. But then again this all goes back to EP I again.

I disagree. Amidala's move from queen to senator shows a greater responsibility. As she grows, her career is developing and it makes sense that she might find a path to the capital. I find this development completely natural, as she is now in the capacity to affect a system that she believes "no longer functions." :)



Stillakid, regarding Lucas using Hales for rewrites: I was surprised recently when I found some info relevant to this in an old SW Insider. In his "prequel update", McCallum states that George was the sole writer on TPM, but he will probably bring in some aides to polish the next two. I don't have it at hand, but the issue I'm refering to was published before TPM's release and the criticism it received. I wonder why he planned from the start to write TPM solo and then bring in help for the last two. If the last two could stand for some brushing, why couldn't TPM?

stillakid
04-13-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Stillakid, regarding Lucas using Hales for rewrites: I was surprised recently when I found some info relevant to this in an old SW Insider. In his "prequel update", McCallum states that George was the sole writer on TPM, but he will probably bring in some aides to polish the next two. I don't have it at hand, but the issue I'm refering to was published before TPM's release and the criticism it received. I wonder why he planned from the start to write TPM solo and then bring in help for the last two. If the last two could stand for some brushing, why couldn't TPM?

I looked briefly for the article but didn't come up with it. I'll keep looking.

My guess is as good as anyone's, but if I had to, I'd say that it was a reasonable assumption at that time regarding bringing other writers in for the second two. Presumably, Lucas had 20 years to write TPM, but the assumption probably was, that once production gotted revved up on the Prequels, Lucas wouldn't really have the time to spend to properly polish up his outlines/scripts to make them shootable.

Once the negative reaction to TPM came rolling in, he probably realized his blunder and thought better of just having someone polish, and instead got help throughout the entire screenwriting process.

Lucas has a great imagination, but unfortunately that doesn't make him a great writer. Changing one seemingly innocent aspect of a story can drop dominoes down the line faster than you can read this sentence. Where he thought he was introducing new layers to the saga, he actually was writing himself into a corner with no way out but to reedit the Original Trilogy. Money and power can make you believe that you are capable of more than what you really are. I think that ego had a lot to do with his going solo on Ep I. Thank god he saw the error of his ways for II, but he can't undo the damage that has been done.

That's my guess anyway.

2-1B
04-13-2002, 01:48 AM
Here we are - Issue 32, page 8. :)

Earlier in the interview, Rick says George will direct TPM for certain, and maybe the others. The idea was that he would set the tone and structure for the prequel trilogy. Maybe they were thinking the same thing with scriptwriting, but I don't buy that argument. :D

Tycho
04-13-2002, 03:08 AM
I've tried to stay out of this because I strongly disagree with Stillakid on almost all his points and it tires me to go down this road again. We are very old adversaries in this debate...

I will try to add only new things to this.

MidiChlorians do not talk like the little angel and the little devil that pop up on each shoulder of a cartoon character.

Qui-Gon was telling Anakin to trust his feelings, in a way that metaphorically alluded to the midichlorians because that was the topic of their conversation.

I agree with Stillakid on the matter that material that is important to a story should be told for the benefit of the audience, not happen off-screen for the characters (who aren't real).

However, I think it most likely that Lucas hadn't thought of naming the midichlorians that way, and nicely alluded to it being genetic by saying it ran in the family in Return of the Jedi.

All they probably are would be specialized mitochondria or white blood cells, that are characteristic of a recessive genetic trait which appears more strongly at random intervals in life's gene pools - such as the genetics that make someone an albino. In this case, maybe liken it more to people who have a strong predisposition for ESP.

That Jedi aren't allowed to marry or have children (under most circumstances) contributes to the case. Recessive genes that assert themselves as dominant ones, come back with even greater strength. Do you know that it's possible for two black Africans to have a white child? So wouldn't the repetition of the Jedi DNA in an offspring have the potential to create a Jedi more powerful than the orginal Jedi Order could control?

They would be afraid of that Jedi, were he or she to not follow the training and be willing to use their power to hurt the rest. Hence, they didn't chance creating super-babies as it would erode the older generation's power. The fact is that the conservative thinking of the Jedi Order is to preserve the status quo.

I thought of the Jedi almost as the X-Men. They have their temple as "Mutant High." They are trying to keep people with special abilities moral, and in control of their passions and emotions that might otherwise sway their allegiance to what's good. The Force is constant actually. There is no Dark Side in any Trilogy in Star Wars. That is the way that the Masters have explained it to their padawans for eons. Just like there probably is no God. But we have religion as a way to use a need to believe in hope and salvation to make up a reason to solidify the majority of the masses' obedience to a moral code.

In real life it is not wrong to murder or commit adultery. It is wrong to flap your arms about really fast and start to fly. Everything that is possible is correct for the abilities granted to our species. There are logical, universalizable behaviors that contribute to the general good (for our planet and our species) and there are ones that do not. I am not a murderer because I understand complicated logical reasons not to be - but I've admired Han Solo wasting Greedo in cold blood since the first day I ever thought about just killing somebody I didn't like myself.

Anyway, to keep the peace and enforce concepts that are generally for the greater good, murder was outlawed by man's consent to government. The greatest deterrant for me to not kill anyone, is that I would be caught and punished under my government's law. For others, they fear God's punishment, going to Hell, torment for their sins in the afterlife, and all that stuff. I don't believe it's going to happen, and for reasons that are almost as long as this thread, I could go into a big ordeal of why I would not commit murder on a general basis. Fear of punishment is only why I would not do it on a more specific basis. One or two targets would not make a big difference in this world, but if that priviledge were generalized to everyone, we could arrive at nuclear armageddon, or even a conventional war's armageddon, before we know it. I do not refer to armageddon in a biblical sense, but as a term to describe extreme and detrimental population destruction. That is different from me being a strong advocate of population control, but that is another issue.

In any case, we need to get back to the Force, and that there is no midichlorians talking to the characters in any literal sense, and there is also no Dark Side of the Force. Might can make right, and history will be written by the victors, and colored to make it appear as however it might be necessary for those in power to retain control. I am an American and a patriot, but if you think our leaders fought the Revolutionary War against England for the same ideals the soldiers (like "Benjamin Martin in the movie) did - you are in bad need of rethinking history. The world is far more unidealistic than you have possibly imagined. And GOD??? - Don't get me started...

So the Jedi believe there is a Dark Side to the Force? I don't know if Yoda actually believes that. Obi-Wan might. Anakin does not really. As Vader he might - he might have been beaten back so much by his circumstances and enslavement to Palpatine, that he doesn't know night from day by that point. Or Vader might just be using terms that he thinks Obi-Wan taught Luke with. Luke is still a child to all these characters...

Meanwhile, I doubt Palpatine believes there is a Dark Side to the Force. There is only "The True Nature of the Force."

The Sith are unafraid to explore it, but they are delusional if they think they can control it. Palpatine came so close... but he blew it!

Vader did seem to acknowledge this as he sought to use his abilities with his son's to accomplish some good: "Join me and together we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy. Together we can destroy the Emperor..."

Vader still had a sense of justice, and maybe it was under more control than Palpatine's megalomania.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of the Classic Trilogy - they are going to add footage to it, or edit a little - and all of you are going to panic. They are not going to enter in midichlorians, or add dialogue explaining Qui-Gon Jinn. They don't need to do this (I'm with those guys that said it will all mesh fine).

They might fix Jabba the Hutt's ANH appearance. Let Han fire the only shot in the Cantina (one would hope - but yes it is a bad influence on children because since I was 4 I'd be predisposed to killing you just like Han shot Greedo if you dared to disagree with me - and I cannot say there would be anything wrong with that SINGULAR act in the larger order of the universe). Anyway, they might add more footage to the exteriors of the ships as the Falcon fights its way free of the Death Star. In ROTJ, they could add shots of the B-wings fighting such as in that famous Ralph McQuarrie painting of the fighter crafts blowing out a Star Destroyer. They could even add footage of pilots we would care more about, as one of you suggested, though it is too late to get the original actors who played Hobbie and Janson to do their thing again and look the right age (unless the helmet visor hides some signs of time's passage).

But all of you are going to panic that they are going to add midichlorians and contrived dialogue to explain Qui-Gon....

They don't need to. They will edit the OT, but that won't be the changes made, but you guys will have this discussion all over again.

Maybe, something to do with Cloning also has something to do with the genetic manipulation of stem cells, mitochondria, etc - or midichlorians??? Geeze. Didn't anybody think of that? Wouldn't cloning traits sensitive to the Force be useful or something that those in power might want to actually prevent and elminate from the gene pool? But as someone already quoted Jurassic Park, "life will find a way..."

NO SPOILERS FOLLOW, but...

Anyway, I have the script to Episode II and (if mine is complete) and there are no major spoilers about midichlorians to bring up. I can devulge information on that aspect only, IF people want me to. One objection, and I will not.

I will say that you may well have to wait until Episode 3 to see if any of this line of thinking is relevant at all.

I think midichlorians are overall unimportant to the storyline.

Stillakid, I think that Luke is just from a higher evolved scale than the average person is. And if you want him to be "everyman" forever and always, I think you might want to "Be him." If so, I'm sorry you don't have midichlorians. Regardless if Lucas ever brought them up in a movie or not, I'm sorry to say that you probably will never be able to use the Force anyway, so quit trying to levitate your computer or whatever you're straining yourself to use the Force on. If you can do anything, use the Jedi Mindtrick and go and be a strong influence on your Wal*Mart toy manager and go and pick up your Episode 2 figures already!! ;)


Sorry, you were never destined to be Luke.

Now I'm sure I've said plenty people may want to comment on, so I'll shut up and listen for a while again.

stillakid
04-13-2002, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
I've tried to stay out of this because I strongly disagree with Stillakid on almost all his points and it tires me to go down this road again. We are very old adversaries in this debate...

I will try to add only new things to this.

MidiChlorians do not talk like the little angel and the little devil that pop up on each shoulder of a cartoon character.

Qui-Gon was telling Anakin to trust his feelings, in a way that metaphorically alluded to the midichlorians because that was the topic of their conversation.

I agree with Stillakid on the matter that material that is important to a story should be told for the benefit of the audience, not happen off-screen for the characters (who aren't real).

However, I think it most likely that Lucas hadn't thought of naming the midichlorians that way, and nicely alluded to it being genetic by saying it ran in the family in Return of the Jedi.

All they probably are would be specialized mitochondria or white blood cells, that are characteristic of a recessive genetic trait which appears more strongly at random intervals in life's gene pools - such as the genetics that make someone an albino. In this case, maybe liken it more to people who have a strong predisposition for ESP.

That Jedi aren't allowed to marry or have children (under most circumstances) contributes to the case. Recessive genes that assert themselves as dominant ones, come back with even greater strength. Do you know that it's possible for two black Africans to have a white child? So wouldn't the repetition of the Jedi DNA in an offspring have the potential to create a Jedi more powerful than the orginal Jedi Order could control?

They would be afraid of that Jedi, were he or she to not follow the training and be willing to use their power to hurt the rest. Hence, they didn't chance creating super-babies as it would erode the older generation's power. The fact is that the conservative thinking of the Jedi Order is to preserve the status quo.

I thought of the Jedi almost as the X-Men. They have their temple as "Mutant High." They are trying to keep people with special abilities moral, and in control of their passions and emotions that might otherwise sway their allegiance to what's good. The Force is constant actually. There is no Dark Side in any Trilogy in Star Wars. That is the way that the Masters have explained it to their padawans for eons. Just like there probably is no God. But we have religion as a way to use a need to believe in hope and salvation to make up a reason to solidify the majority of the masses' obedience to a moral code.

In real life it is not wrong to murder or commit adultery. It is wrong to flap your arms about really fast and start to fly. Everything that is possible is correct for the abilities granted to our species. There are logical, universalizable behaviors that contribute to the general good (for our planet and our species) and there are ones that do not. I am not a murderer because I understand complicated logical reasons not to be - but I've admired Han Solo wasting Greedo in cold blood since the first day I ever thought about just killing somebody I didn't like myself.

Anyway, to keep the peace and enforce concepts that are generally for the greater good, murder was outlawed by man's consent to government. The greatest deterrant for me to not kill anyone, is that I would be caught and punished under my government's law. For others, they fear God's punishment, going to Hell, torment for their sins in the afterlife, and all that stuff. I don't believe it's going to happen, and for reasons that are almost as long as this thread, I could go into a big ordeal of why I would not commit murder on a general basis. Fear of punishment is only why I would not do it on a more specific basis. One or two targets would not make a big difference in this world, but if that priviledge were generalized to everyone, we could arrive at nuclear armageddon, or even a conventional war's armageddon, before we know it. I do not refer to armageddon in a biblical sense, but as a term to describe extreme and detrimental population destruction. That is different from me being a strong advocate of population control, but that is another issue.

In any case, we need to get back to the Force, and that there is no midichlorians talking to the characters in any literal sense, and there is also no Dark Side of the Force. Might can make right, and history will be written by the victors, and colored to make it appear as however it might be necessary for those in power to retain control. I am an American and a patriot, but if you think our leaders fought the Revolutionary War against England for the same ideals the soldiers (like "Benjamin Martin in the movie) did - you are in bad need of rethinking history. The world is far more unidealistic than you have possibly imagined. And GOD??? - Don't get me started...

So the Jedi believe there is a Dark Side to the Force? I don't know if Yoda actually believes that. Obi-Wan might. Anakin does not really. As Vader he might - he might have been beaten back so much by his circumstances and enslavement to Palpatine, that he doesn't know night from day by that point. Or Vader might just be using terms that he thinks Obi-Wan taught Luke with. Luke is still a child to all these characters...

Meanwhile, I doubt Palpatine believes there is a Dark Side to the Force. There is only "The True Nature of the Force."

The Sith are unafraid to explore it, but they are delusional if they think they can control it. Palpatine came so close... but he blew it!

Vader did seem to acknowledge this as he sought to use his abilities with his son's to accomplish some good: "Join me and together we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy. Together we can destroy the Emperor..."

Vader still had a sense of justice, and maybe it was under more control than Palpatine's megalomania.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of the Classic Trilogy - they are going to add footage to it, or edit a little - and all of you are going to panic. They are not going to enter in midichlorians, or add dialogue explaining Qui-Gon Jinn. They don't need to do this (I'm with those guys that said it will all mesh fine).

They might fix Jabba the Hutt's ANH appearance. Let Han fire the only shot in the Cantina (one would hope - but yes it is a bad influence on children because since I was 4 I'd be predisposed to killing you just like Han shot Greedo if you dared to disagree with me - and I cannot say there would be anything wrong with that SINGULAR act in the larger order of the universe). Anyway, they might add more footage to the exteriors of the ships as the Falcon fights its way free of the Death Star. In ROTJ, they could add shots of the B-wings fighting such as in that famous Ralph McQuarrie painting of the fighter crafts blowing out a Star Destroyer. They could even add footage of pilots we would care more about, as one of you suggested, though it is too late to get the original actors who played Hobbie and Janson to do their thing again and look the right age (unless the helmet visor hides some signs of time's passage).

But all of you are going to panic that they are going to add midichlorians and contrived dialogue to explain Qui-Gon....

They don't need to. They will edit the OT, but that won't be the changes made, but you guys will have this discussion all over again.

Maybe, something to do with Cloning also has something to do with the genetic manipulation of stem cells, mitochondria, etc - or midichlorians??? Geeze. Didn't anybody think of that? Wouldn't cloning traits sensitive to the Force be useful or something that those in power might want to actually prevent and elminate from the gene pool? But as someone already quoted Jurassic Park, "life will find a way..."

NO SPOILERS FOLLOW, but...

Anyway, I have the script to Episode II and (if mine is complete) and there are no major spoilers about midichlorians to bring up. I can devulge information on that aspect only, IF people want me to. One objection, and I will not.

I will say that you may well have to wait until Episode 3 to see if any of this line of thinking is relevant at all.

I think midichlorians are overall unimportant to the storyline.

Stillakid, I think that Luke is just from a higher evolved scale than the average person is. And if you want him to be "everyman" forever and always, I think you might want to "Be him." If so, I'm sorry you don't have midichlorians. Regardless if Lucas ever brought them up in a movie or not, I'm sorry to say that you probably will never be able to use the Force anyway, so quit trying to levitate your computer or whatever you're straining yourself to use the Force on. If you can do anything, use the Jedi Mindtrick and go and be a strong influence on your Wal*Mart toy manager and go and pick up your Episode 2 figures already!! ;)


Sorry, you were never destined to be Luke.

Now I'm sure I've said plenty people may want to comment on, so I'll shut up and listen for a while again.


:eek:

No, really, you made some very fine points there that I need some time to chew on.

I grew up in a Catholic household, but more and more, my thoughts about the nature of the Universe, God, and what constitutes actual right and wrong look like your own beliefs. One of the greatest problems we have here on Earth is the overlaying of "religion" onto just about every decision that is made. So when people whine and complain about money spent on scientific research into the origins and nature of the Universe, I can't help but to choke up. That research could very well lead to the discovery and explanation of what this supreme being notion really is in a rational, scientific manner. With a TRUE definition of God(?), then maybe all this nonsense in the Middle East would go away...or at least they could call a spade a spade and admit that they're all racist fools over there and religion has nothing to do with it.

Anywayyyy, Qui Gon aside (I am still aghast that so few people can see the obvious stealing of Obi Wan's history), I'll put some more thought into the Midi thing based on your well spoken arguments. Til later...

bigbarada
04-13-2002, 01:57 PM
Wow, Tycho, I agree with you on most of your points on Star Wars; but on your views of real life is where our opinions go opposite directions.

I for one, believe in morality, with the ultimate immorality being pre-meditated murder. (Not murder in self-defense or killing on the battlefield) I also believe wholeheartedly in God. The astounding complexity of "simple" cells and DNA shows that there must have been an intelligence far beyond ours at work. "Happy accident?" Please, I don't believe that at all. I for one have no problem with science unlocking the "secrets" of life for two reasons: 1) if God exists, it will simply prove it (as some of the most recent discoveries have) and 2) our limited capacity for intelligence will only get us so far before we reach the limit of our understanding.

Population control? Let me just say one thing about that: the people deciding who lives and who dies will not be any of us. So let's not be in such a hurry.

Anyhoo, if you have juicy info regarding the midichlorians, spill it. It'd be nice to add some new info to these discussions as they are getting repetetive.

Tycho
04-13-2002, 06:14 PM
Well, man is unlocking the complexity of the single cells, mitochondria etc. as we continue to make progress in what? Cloning nonetheless.

For religious reasons largely, many do not want us to proceede with human cloning experiments.

Ironically, Star Wars is going to provide a more secular voice against Cloning for more secular-ethic reasons - the idea of using Clones as an army to (eventually) impose a dictatorship; erasing free-will in mankind, to preprogramming him by another MAN's design.

Once we can make these leaps and bounds, don't you think that scientists will be able to isolate the genes that create our arms (on human embroyos?). Then by experimentation, we can create 4 armed individuals who could get more work done. By genetic manipulation of their mind, and programming them through an isolated life experience in their developmental stages, we can create a 4-armed human laborer caste with almost the science we've got right now.

With Star Wars showing so many different kinds of life across a very broad universe, it should be easy for us to theorize that life could have evolved in many places in our real universe.

Some of that life would undoubtedly be more advanced than we are.

They could be our creators. Our "God." You have to have faith that it wasn't Zuess or Apollo. Personally I like Aphrodite. Why are the even more ancient legends discounted. Maybe these "Gods" existed, but were akin to us going deep into the South American jungle and bringing ice to an indigenous people who had never seen it before. (A good movie for you to watch is Harrison Ford in The Mosquito Coast). God is all relative to what you have faith in. Faith is a choice, and certainly the religious argue that evolution requires faith from its proponents as well. True enough, but they also place faith in the scientific method that can be used to gather evidence and test and retest theories. The religious are now using these methods to find evidence of creation. However, both sides to this debate should try to pursue pure science, without trying to prove conclusions.

Therefore, if it is proven that man evolved from an ape-related animal, that does not prove that the ape evolved from a lower animal itself, nor does it prove that God created apes, which then evolved into man.

All it proves is we are genetically linked to another ape-like species. (one step at a time in other words).

Before this discussion turns into a religious holy war, for someone who does not have faith to accept it, usually requires an act of desperation. An aehiest in bloody, shark-infested waters will probably pray with better effort than they can swim. But perhaps in life's lesser challenges, the non-believer chooses to do more, and holds a stronger belief they can control more, so their faith is invested in themselves and human enginuity.

The comment was made that our small minds must judge matters accordingly with their limited capacity. I do not believe we have any limits to our intellectual capacity at all. However, knowledge is attained in partnership within us as a species, not as an individual. Say you wanted to make the Millennium Falcon a reality? You would be hard-pressed to achieve that goal unless you understood and invoked the knowledge acquired by Albert Einstein. Certainly, you might not have to, but it is a shortcut to making advances as a species if we learn from one another and strive to cooperate. A part of this can be stretched to a secular argument to not being a murderer as well. People with the theoretical background have obvioulsy come to that conclusion and used their strength in knowledge over those who accept themselves as having more limited capacity and became the others' followers. They imposed a law and the contract of government as written as it is consented to by the people.

But that is only the law so long as that government keeps the faith of the people. Again, I point to the American Revolution as an example. England would have freed Jefferson's and Washington's SLAVES. They would have taxed the riches acquired in the new world by a lower, middle-classman named Alexander Hamilton (as he was a British subject). It's convenient that Benjamin Franklin could help invent a theory that would give Washington an excuse to fight, and enlist "Benjamin Martin's" help to win.

They are my national heroes only because they won. Palpatine's New Order only was evil because it failed to actually acquire the consent of the people, and thus create ORDER. But autocracy is not the nature of our species, and in the fictional universe, a Sith Lord should have been smarter than that. Had he Machiavelli to advise him, Palpatine would have never succombed to either the Rebel Alliance, nor the last Jedi Knight. For his mistakes, he deserved the Ewoks!

As to Population Control and "the people who will be deciding who lives and who dies not being any amongst us?" Speak for yourself. I do not believe in limitations to my abilities, and I do intend to be the greatest leader I can be - and make a positive difference in my life. If I have to make life and death decisions, I do have a evaluative system I think logically under, and I would neither hesitate, nor second-guess my decisions if they had to be made without seconds to spare. Otherwise, it is always a good idea to question one's beliefs and convictions, and I thank you for this great dialogue that is evolving here.

Wolfwood319
04-13-2002, 06:33 PM
This debate has grown much more than I ever thought it would...

Let me turn it back to Star Wars for just one moment though. I too grew up in a Catholic household, and when I see the way Jedis are perceived in TPM, it makes me think not only as a "law enforcement" agency, but as a religion to itself. When the Jedi instate a code that "A Jedi shall not know love," not only is it population control in a sense, but it is also a way to keep Jedis focused on the Force, always. Love takes up a lot of your attention at any given point in time, and in Star Wars mythos, I think it could lead a Jedi to the "Dark Side" very easily. But if a Jedi keeps his thoughts completely on the Force, then there will be no problem.

This in fact, since I saw TPM, is what I thought was Anakin's main downfall to the dark side. He fell in love and became conflicted.

So in essence, I don't think that midichloreans are good or bad, its just those who have them can use the force for their own purposes, whether it be to become a noble Jedi, or use them for self gain, like Palpatine.

On the topic of Rubber masks vs. CGI, I like Rubber masks for background characters, but for actual characters, like Watto, I prefer cgi, because you can get so much more with cgi, in terms of expressions, movement, etc, than with a mask. I don't like however when cgi is used to do everything in a shot.

stillakid
04-13-2002, 07:55 PM
In a different thread, I put an absolute on the idea of "good" or "bad" literature. I was quickly beaten back with the opposite viewpoint that the ideas of "good" or "bad" were entirely subjective...a judgment placed upon an inert, independent entity.

Supposing that this opposing viewpoint is true, why should the situation be any different when it comes to traditional topics of morality? Our society has decided that to kill another human being is wrong, but that is our own "overlaid" opinion on the subject which is essentially it's own inert, independent activity. Whether someone dies or not, or dies because of another person's actions or not is not a matter that is inherently "good" or "bad." It's just an event. Our human perception and opinion about it makes it a "good" or "bad" event. Morality is nothing more than someone's opinion of how to approach the world, but it certainly isn't a physical law of the universe or anything of the sort. But if you don't agree with what I just said, then why isn't it equally valid to suggest that literature is inherently "good" or "bad" as well?

(I'm still working on the Midi question. Stay tuned.)

Tonysmo
04-13-2002, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Tycho

As to Population Control and "the people who will be deciding who lives and who dies not being any amongst us?" Speak for yourself. I do not believe in limitations to my abilities, and I do intend to be the greatest leader I can be - and make a positive difference in my life. If I have to make life and death decisions, I do have a evaluative system I think logically under, and I would neither hesitate, nor second-guess my decisions if they had to be made without seconds to spare. Otherwise, it is always a good idea to question one's beliefs and convictions, and I thank you for this great dialogue that is evolving here.


That is the coolest thing I have heard someone say in quite some time.
All of the posts are impressive, most impressive...

we could give this a change of pace and talk about how it must've felt for Han Solo to hear he no longer had competition with Luke at the end of ROTJ. Had to feel great knowing he had Leia all to himself.. justa thought.

keep up the awesome posts

bigbarada
04-13-2002, 11:09 PM
When I think of population control, I think of nothing more than state-sponsored genocide. In other words, the rich and powerful deciding among themselves who should live and die for the sole purpose of keeping their (the rich peoples') lives as comfortable as possible.

Killing thousands of people to prevent possible future starvation is no different than Hitler killing off the Jews in Europe to "improve the quality of life" for the Germans. My family tree, on my dad's side stops at the death camps of Auschwitz. Don't tell me that genocide in the guise of science is any better than what the Nazis did.

I believe one of the keys to being truly wise is accepting and indentifying your limits and working off of your strengths. It stands to reason that no one can possibly be good at everything. Genetics have pre-selected us for our potential. For instance, no matter how hard I train, I know that I will never be as good as a Basketball player as Michael Jordan was in his prime. My physical build prohibits it. I got out of the military because I simply wasn't cut out to be a leader, plus I had no love for public speaking which was becoming a requisite for my job. I understood my limits and got out, now I am happier than I have been in years simply because I accepted my failure and moved on.

In my time in the Army, I have been forced to make life and death decisions. Not on the battlefield, of course, but in the performance of dangerous duties. As a result I found that I am not capable of ordering someone to perform a duty which might be hazardous to them, I preferred to just do the hazardous duties myself and bear the full brunt of the risk. Again my failure as a leader forced me to learn more about myself and why I was pursuing a career field I no longer cared for.

So, in conclusion, when you are rich and powerful and you have ordered me to the gas chamber because I might eat some of your crops in the future, you cannot take comfort in the fact that I would do the same thing in your shoes. Because I wouldn't. However, I might just be the one who joins a rebellion to overthrow a fascist regime that believes it has the power to murder millions in the name of "population control."

Anyhoo, back to the topic. I just got done reading the comic book adaption of Ep2 and I can now say that I have absolutely no fears about AOTC! Great story!!

2-1B
04-14-2002, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I got out of the military because I simply wasn't cut out to be a leader, plus I had no love for public speaking which was becoming a requisite for my job. I understood my limits and got out, now I am happier than I have been in years simply because I accepted my failure and moved on.

In my time in the Army, I have been forced to make life and death decisions. Not on the battlefield, of course, but in the performance of dangerous duties. As a result I found that I am not capable of ordering someone to perform a duty which might be hazardous to them, I preferred to just do the hazardous duties myself and bear the full brunt of the risk. Again my failure as a leader forced me to learn more about myself and why I was pursuing a career field I no longer cared for.

bigbarada, that doesn't sound like a failure to me, rather I see 10 years (it was 10, right?) in the military as a great success. You should be proud of such an achievement. :)

bigbarada
04-14-2002, 01:09 AM
Thanks, Caesar, I appreciate that.

Tycho
04-14-2002, 07:11 AM
I second that. I have spoken with BigBarada at length and though we disagree on some things in this thread, I have found you to be a deep-thinking, level headed person who can definitely make decisions - and those are qualities of a leader, BigBarada. I compliment you by saying that I think you underestimate your own abilities. Perhaps it is only applying them under the circumstances you had to in the military, that was not your personal forteit.

Anyway, it is always with pride that I respect those who have served. Thanks BigB.

Now you knew there was "a however" coming...

You misunderstood me discussing population control to believe I was condoning genocide - probably because I also referred to the morals surrounding murder in the same thread. Though I was not thinking of inter-connecting them. LOL - I was thinking about strict birth control, contraception more than anything. But intentionally committing to that as a society.

Abortion, by the way, really has nothing to do with this. A healthy pregnancy that can be seen fulfilled to a child being raised by one or both competant parents is fine. I'm talking about competant adults with a healthy sex life, married or not, deciding to control their own reproduction, to trim this country's drain on its resources. And I'm not saying married couples that want children, or single parents who can afford a child, shouldn't have ONE child, but let's not continue with our population getting carried away with itself.

stillakid
04-14-2002, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


bigbarada, that doesn't sound like a failure to me, rather I see 10 years (it was 10, right?) in the military as a great success. You should be proud of such an achievement. :)


I'll third that. Most people trudge through life believing that they are capable of things that they really aren't. It takes a great person to recognize his own strengths and weaknesses and deal with them to his own advantage.

bigbarada
04-14-2002, 12:43 PM
I'm glad to hear (read) that I misunderstood you, Tycho. I get what you are saying about contraception and limiting children born to parents, I just have never given that subject much thought to know if I agree with you or not. Although, I do remember hearing some guy on TV saying that for a family to be considered productive the parents must have at least three children. If they only have two then they are simply replacing themselves and not adding to their particular genetic line. Like I said, I haven't given it enough thought really to decide where I stand.

Abortion is one of two issues that I will not discuss with people. I find that the two sides of the issue are too firmly entrenched and tend to not listen to the other side. Discussions about abortion turn into arguments which degrade to personal insults and it just becomes a lose/lose scenario all around. Both are guilty of using propaganda to sell their viewpoints. Am I Pro-Life? Sure, I like life, where would we be without it? What does that have to do with abortion? Am I Pro-Choice? Sure, I like having choices; but again, what does that have to do with abortion?

I'll refrain from giving away my position on that little subject, as my viewpoint would be considered old-fashioned and extremely sexist. Given those clues, it's not very hard to guess for yourself.;)

Gays in the Military is another issue I try not to discuss. In fact, you can't even pick a side in that issue without being classified as either a flaming homosexual or a closed-minded bigot.

Anyways, thanks for the votes of confidence on my "leadership skills." Who knows, maybe I will need them again someday; but I hope not.

Tycho
04-14-2002, 03:20 PM
The population control bit is not that (replacing yourself and your future / current wife in the gene pool). It's about multipliers.

If you have the right to have 2 kids, shouldn't your kids when they become adults? (I mean I'd love a boy and a girl - though you don't get to choose really in natural procreation).

But because of increasing lifespans and healthcare technology, you could live to know your great-grandchildren. If you take the multiplier effect out:

You and your wife have 2.

Your kids each have 2 children (4 grandchildren) - 6 decendents of you and your wife.

And if they each have 2 children, that's 12 great-grandchildren, or 18 decendents of you and your wife.

If everybody does that, this country's population is exploding beyond control when you think in terms of jobs, housing, education, etc.

Now add to that, a huge percent of the pregnancies are unplanned. They result in foster care, grandparents raising children, at least diminished time spent between child and single-working parent, etc. Children perceiving lack of love, discipline etc. may be tempted by crime, and are also only slaves to their own humanity, meaning your kids could make you grandparents before they are out of high school and you wouldn't see it coming!

The question I'm asking is CAN YOU PROVIDE A HOME AND A JOB FOR EACH OF YOUR 18 DECENDANTS YOU WILL KNOW IN YOUR LIFE TIME?

So how many drug addicts, homeless people, divorced and miserable welfare recipients etc. are you creating?

When will competition break down to bigotry on socio-economic, and of course racial prejudices?

When will the next "lost generation" start a civil war?

It begs the question, should only the rich be allowed to have children? Of course not! Plus life finds a way anyway!

Should the Republicans promote abstinance versus birth control education? Stop and think if in reality people are going to stop having sex!

We live in a society that is becoming more and more wonderfully sexually liberated - and that is a good thing. It is natural for our species.

But in the old days, people could have sex after marriage when they were hitched at only 13 years old or whatever. True life-expectancy was shorter, but that had nothing to do with it. The fact is that you didn't need a B.A. or M.A. or Ph.D. degree to make a living and decently support a wife and family. Now, as population grows, we have no short supply of people who can work at basic labor tasks. They are no longer jobs that can pay enough when others with more money who have specialized have bid up the price of homes, etc.

And why not? If you build the house and the doctor will pay your construction company more for it than the 7-eleven cashier, you'll take the higher price. Like E-bay, right?

So it's harder and harder to specialize enough so it takes longer and longer amounts of time to finish your education and that's darn hard to do for someone who's already trying to make a marriage or being a parent work (and invest the time it takes for that).

So they are teaching us that we're not supposed to have sex at age 13 or whatever, when biologically it is totally our nature to begin becoming ready to do so (at everyone's own pace of course).

Nature gets the better of what they teach you in church, and the divorce rate crushes the dreams of valuing the big wait until marriage. So contraception education - and therefore population control is the only way to go.

And that goes for married couples too. No telling when you'll fall in love with the right girl and things start to work for you. They won't even if you marry but cannot appropriately adjust to your finanacial reality.

OK - this is getting over the heads of maybe our younger people here, but remember they are here, so keep it PG if we are taking this discussion further.

But anyway, to relate this to AOTC, there was another thread regarding the ethics of human cloning, and I do not reject making progress in this area - but not without certain restrictions. But as the case for population control was just made, you can see why I would reason that no one needs armies of Clones.

Why do you think the Empire became more and more oppressive? How could they feed the stormtroopers? They were professional soldiers and didn't grow their own food. Taxes buddy! Palpatine was the embodiment of the Dark Side of the I.R.S.!!!

The current resources in the Empire could not adequately support the population increase made with Clone soldiers. Hopefully we'll see the costs at least being mentioned during the Senate debate in the movie. They would have to be enormous!

And who's going to pay them? Was the Republic wealthy? Maybe at that time. But if you're Palpatine and you can do this: when the bill comes, tell them "the check's on the Death Star."

JediTricks
04-14-2002, 08:19 PM
This thread is way way WAAAAAAY off track now, so I ask you folks if there's any way this line of dicussion can be moved to a new thread in the proper section. I'm not making an administrative demand, just posing a question.

RooJay
04-14-2002, 08:44 PM
Amen and thank you Tycho, for what I feel is your support of my position in this discussion. Well exept for your views on God and the nature of good and evil. No offense, but while it seems as though you feel that it's a forgone conclusion that God does not exist, some of us feel it's a foregone conclusion that God does exist. This, however, gets us into a theological discussion that I don't feel has much of a place here. Again, thank you for sharing your views.:)

Wolfwood319
04-14-2002, 09:49 PM
Tycho, the first half of your last post should be published and taught in school. The cold hard facts are in short supply these days, its nice to see that some people still have an undilluted sense of reality.

As for AOTC, I think that if you like TPM, you'll like AOTC, from what we've seen. For those who can't get over TPM's new direction with the saga or its "shortcomings" I don't think you'll like AOTC, simply because of your preconceived notions and judgements.

stillakid
04-14-2002, 09:58 PM
As part of my "pre-film" preparations, I plan to view the previous four in order (of release). When a new movie is imminent, I purposefully don't watch any of them for at least 4 months or more prior. So I haven't seen TPM for quite some time and I'll attempt to power through it, keeping in mind all of the arguments as to why it is such a stellar work of art. ;)

I've got a response finally to Tycho's last line of reasoning behind Midi's, but I haven't had time to properly sit down and compose it. I still feel that it is a completely bogus addition to the saga, but I'm almost (almost) to a place where I could properly ignore them. The Qui Gon thing, though, is and will always be entirely wrong as it has nothing to do with point of view of something as intangible as the Force, rather it is a point blank robbery of Obi Wan Kenobi's history based on Old Ben's own words.

But with AOTC coming up soon, I plan to have my little film festival soon. A few of us LA people should get together and watch them all together with all of these arguments at hand and the pause button at the ready.

bigbarada
04-14-2002, 10:10 PM
Dangit! I had a large post typed up arguing a different perspective to the "population crisis" but somehow it didn't go through. Probably for the best. Needless to say, that from my perspective out here in the great big empty desert, I have a hard time believing that we are approaching a population crisis. Maybe in the big city where people insist on bunching up together; but not out here.

I agree about Ep2, I think if you go into the movie with an open mind then you will enjoy it. If you hated Ep1 and approach Ep2 with the attitude of "how's George gonna screw this one up?" then you will be incapable of enjoying the movie as you will be concentrating too much on the negative. So my advice would be to just relax and enjoy the film, warts and all.

bigbarada
04-14-2002, 10:14 PM
But, stillakid, Ben lied about so much in that conversation with Luke. I don't have a hard time believing that he lied about that as well.

bigbarada
04-14-2002, 10:25 PM
Actually, let's dissect it line by line to see where the lie sits:

"When I first met your father he was already a great pilot." (line would continue with, "he had just won a podrace on Tatooine." to which Luke would ask, "My father was born on Tatooine?" or "I thought no human could race pods." These explanation would take far too long and the audience already knows the story so what's the point?)

"But I was amazed at how strong the Force was with him." ("based on his midichlorian count." to which Luke would ask, "what are midichlorians?" and the audience would groan aloud at having to sit through the explanation a second time.)

"So I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi." ("after my dying master swore me to train him." a little embellishment on Obi-Wan's part but not a complete lie. Anyways, why bring up the master, since Luke would ask what he was like and what his name was and exactly why he was dying and what are Sith. The audience already knows this info, why waste time explaining it to a character onscreen?)

So I don't think Ep1 destroyed Obi-Wan's history at all. Everything seems to fit.

Wolfwood319
04-14-2002, 10:33 PM
I don't see how Qui-Gon's character robbed Obi-Wan's history. Obi-Wan never said anything that directly contradicts Qui-Gons existance, from what I remember.

BB, I'd like to read your viewpoints on "population crisis," as I find it a very good topic that hasn't been discussed much in these forums amongst other places.

I won't chime in on my viewpoints just yet, but I do like BB's comment on living in the desert. I live in Vegas one month of the year, and aside from the 1.5 million people in Vegas itself, there is nothing but vast emptiness until Salt Lake City or California. So we do have some room left. :D

Tycho
04-14-2002, 11:01 PM
JT, I think we're back on track again, but it was a side-trip that interested enough people here, and it was relevant indirectly, so we're ok there, I hope. Might as well let a lot of people interested in discussing population, competition for resources, etc. go with it, as real examples from Star Wars can be drawn to parallel real examples from life.

Nothing like interesting subjects leading us on into new and ever more interesting subjects, right? Good life lessons too.

And I'm not the complete aetheist some might think I sound like. Agnostic is probably the correct generalization, but it's not really important any more in this thread.

As far as those living in the desert go, I ask you this: wouldn't it be nice if you had the freedom to move to the city, or live by the ocean if you wanted to, with a gaurantee of being able to manage it financially if you wanted to? Our grandparents generation, maybe some of our parents' too, were able to do this. That is what has been lost. And when we do fill the desert and our rich diversity of landscapes and wildlife is gone - there will be no caribou, mountain lions, etc - what you could think of as our versions of Dewbacks, Rontos, and Krayyt Dragons. Nothing more interesting than homeless people moving through other people's Wal*Marts and tract housing.

Back to Star Wars, - I agree. Obi-Wan didn't complicate the story.

I remember Jedi Clint wrote something similar to this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obi-Wan: When my Master Qui-Gon first met your father...

LUKE: You had a Master?

Obi-Wan: Yes, but that's nothing special now. All the Jedi apprenticed themselves to Masters from the Temple.

LUKE: There was a temple?

Obi-Wan: Yes, it was on Coruscant.

LUKE: Coruscant?

Obi-Wan: I'm sorry. It's called Imperial Center now.

Anyway, when my Master first met your father, he was already a great pilot...

LUKE: He was a pilot? I thought he was a navigator on a spice freighter.

Obi-Wan: He was a champion Pod-racer.

LUKE: Pod racing?

Obi-Wan: Like racing T-16's they used to run just loose engines chained together with energy binders though Beggar's Canyon.

LUKE: Wow! What kind of engines did my Dad prefer? My Skyhopper runs on Incom...

Obi-Wan: That's really not what we're discussing. I was saying when my Master first saw he was a great pilot but was then amazed at how strong the Force was with him. He took it upon himself to test Anakin's midichlorians.

LUKE: The Force? Midichlorians?

Obi-Wan: Well the Force is what gives the Jedi his powers. It's an energy field created by all living beings. The Jedi have adapted and grown specialized cells called midichlorians that help us feel the Force. It surrounds us, penetrates us; it's what binds the galaxy together.

R2D2 warbles something about an urgent message for Obi-Wan.

LUKE: Midichlorians?

Obi-Wan: Midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms that live in side all greater beings.

LUKE: They live inside me?

[Meanwhile, in another part of the galaxy, Alderaan is destroyed.]

LUKE: Hey Ben, are you alright?

Obi-Wan: I felt as if zillions of midichlorians all cried out in terror and were suddenly wiped out. I feel something terrible has happened. Anyway, as I was saying...

Yes, Midichlorians live inside you. They are symbiotic lifeforms.

LUKE: Symbiotic lifeforms?

[in another part of the galaxy - "She lied to us! Terminate her immediately!"]

Obi-Wan: Symbiotic Lifeforms are living organisms that mutally benefit other living organisms...

[In Docking Bay 94 - "Solo you don't even have a Charter Flight! If you don't have the credits, I'll just take your ship!"

HAN: Over my dead body!

Jabba nods to Boba Fett..... BLAM! Blam! Blam!]


Back in Ben's Hutt...

LUKE: So midichlorians could actually influence one to choose Radon-Uldar turbine engines over Incom's T-16 inboard fan models back when my father was racing in Beggar's Canyon?


BEN slowly puts his hands together, shudders one last sigh and fades into the Force.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, you get the idea. We simplify and provide information on a need-to-know basis and Luke did not need to know. Plus the audience did know because in 1977, they had "already seen" Episodes 1, 2, and 3.

RooJay
04-14-2002, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
Tycho, the first half of your last post should be published and taught in school. The cold hard facts are in short supply these days, its nice to see that some people still have an undilluted sense of reality.

As for AOTC, I think that if you like TPM, you'll like AOTC, from what we've seen. For those who can't get over TPM's new direction with the saga or its "shortcomings" I don't think you'll like AOTC, simply because of your preconceived notions and judgements.

Wolfwood, I am trying VERY hard to ignore the fact that some posters on this forum seem to be putting down the beliefs of others, and stating their own as "hard fact". My "sense of reality" is FAR from diluted by my belief in God. It also has very little to do with my love of Star Wars. These are your beliefs, please allow the rest of us ours and try not to belittle us because you don't agree. Whatever your faith, I feel it is up to each of us to find our own.

RooJay
04-14-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I remember Jedi Clint wrote something similar to this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obi-Wan: When my Master Qui-Gon first met your father...


Thanks for the laugh Tycho, and I think this summarizes my point perfectly!:D

Tycho
04-14-2002, 11:17 PM
Before this gets out of hand, let's leave the religious issues at home. I don't want things to get into a position where other people's beliefs are not being respected. But I'll garner to guess that what Wolfwood was talking about was my stance on the case made for population control on the basis of economic grounds.

Only where it comes to the point where one's belief in what their god wants goes so far as to forbid contraception, and they are being sexually active, while married or not (the latter is always forbidden in the religious code anyway), does religion impact our chances to control ourselves before we spread our population to the degree required to bring down upon us our next real war. Armageddon is therefore a self-fulfilling prophesy. Maybe when scripture was referring to Judgement, it had to do with how smart we were, less than how blindly obedient. Interpretations always change over time... (often for the worse).

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Glad you liked the "new Special Edition" RooJay :D

stillakid
04-14-2002, 11:36 PM
"When I first met your father he was already a great pilot."

The key to this line is that it heavily implies, especially in 1977, that Obi Wan actually found Anakin and saw him as a pilot. He did all this firsthand, not just hearing about it from somebody else, which TPM set up. You can't tell me that everybody in the world didn't assume this to be the case, at least up until TPM altered the storyline.


"But I was amazed at how strong the Force was with him."

Again, in 1977, these silly little things hadn't been even a twinkle in the GL's mind, so this line heavily implies that Obi Wan simply "sensed" Luke's Force ability, just like Vader does later on in the trench. Vader didn't need a Midi count to come to this conclusion and the excellent manner in which ANH was written, allowed us to recognize that Obi Wan had no need for anything else (much less taking blood samples looking for something that wouldn't be invented until the late 1990's. )

There is no need for a second explanation, as there really never was a need for a first, so your hypothetical dialogue doesn't work here either.

And as pointed out by so many others, a high Midi count apparently isn't a direct measurement of how strong a person is with the Force. They are just the middle-men, not the Force itself. TPM disproves it's own explanation, when you take this particular line into account, because it takes a blood measurement and Anakin's own piloting skills to convince Qui Gon that Ani is strong with the Force. Qui Gon never sensed anything of the kind from the boy -- he had to witness the race and test his blood to know this. He never says to anyone that the boy is strong with the Force because of any "sensing." Not to mention that Obi Wan, in TPM, never "senses" the boy's Force ability either.

"So I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi."

Once again, we were led to believe that he was the one that found the boy, recognized his potential, and made the decision to train him. There is definitely no mistaking this for what we were led to believe as Obi Wan's history.

Your hypothetical dialogue here too, is exactly the kind of thing that GL has to add to the OT now that he's established an entirely different character carrying out all of this action. As you point out, it causes significant problems in repetition, but that is only a small literary blunder.

The bigger problem is that now, as you also point out, the entire nature of what kind of man Obi Wan is has changed. Now he is a complete bastard liar. A manipulator to the greatest degree. Up until TPM, Obi Wan wasn't painted in that kind of light. Yes, he wasn't upfront with Luke entirely about his father, but it was for good reason...and not just to be an a*shole just to get his way.

When Luke and Ben first meet, Ben knows that Luke isn't emotionally ready to hear about his father. It would be counter-productive to Luke's potential training, that Ben hopes Luke will undertake, if he hears about it there in the cave. Remember, Ben wasn't being that manipulative. He was ready to leave Luke there on the planet. If they hadn't run into the Sandcrawler, then they probably would've parted ways and Ben would have been long gone by the time Luke discovered the smoking remains of his Aunt and Uncle. So, while Ben did have an agenda for Luke certainly, he wasn't about to force it upon the boy. He was not a liar in that sense, as the addition of Qui Gon Jinn now suggests he was. You have to take his statement of "it was true, from a certain point of view" at face value to understand that he was not trying to be manipulative and that it isn't in his nature to be the worst kind of liar. He said what he said for a very very good reason and in the end it worked out. There are absolutely no other instances (yet) in the saga where we see Obi Wan lying, as you suggest is his nature. Maybe if I see several instances of him being manipulative in AOTC, I'll come back here on my knees begging for forgiveness for being short-sighted, but I highly doubt that it'll come to that.

So why is Qui Gon there? Good question. Glad you asked.;) Who knows for sure, but my personal pet theory is that GL needed someone to die at Maul's hand at the end. If Obi Wan completed his own historical moments, and if the rest of the storyline took place as is, then it would have pitted Obi Wan up against Maul, presumably alone and GL couldn't have shown off Maul's cool killing style. Pure cinema there. He could've given Obi Wan a subordinate who would've stayed on board the Queen's ship to twiddle his thumbs (like young Obi does in TPM), but to have the subordinate die at the end would've lessened the impact of having Maul kill a Jedi. As viewers, we could have written off Maul's kill as "easy" because he wasn't up against a Master or something like that, as Qui Gon was. So pitting Maul against a fully trained Jedi had more dramatic appeal and intensified the killing enough to make it "cool." So, yes, if you follow this line of reasoning out to it's bitter end, I'm saying that Qui Gon's ONLY purpose in the movie was to be fodder for the Sith. Absolutely EVERYTHING that he did, could have, and SHOULD HAVE been done by Obi Wan Kenobi, but because Lucas wanted to kill a fully trained Jedi before giving Obi Wan the chance, he invented a teacher for Obi Wan who subsequently stole the poor guy's history. Obi Wan lost his history simply because Lucas wanted us to watch Darth Maul kill a trained Jedi.

Tycho
04-14-2002, 11:47 PM
Stillakid, we're going to have to cut you off on the Mouse Droids!

Ease back there buddy.... slow down...

Obi-Wan goes through a character transformation too. He WAS honest and by-the-book and that didn't work out. His Master was the wily one with all the big plans, gambling on podracing, etc.

Yes, Qui-Gon's death, a Master fallen at the hands of a Sith Apprentice, was very effective at characterizing the Sith as dangerous. True.

Where do you get this idea in your head that Obi-Wan is so honest in his older years?

Is your life exactly as good as your parents told you it would be when you were "a kid," if you'd pardon the pun?

Everyday kids learn they were adopted, or that their father is someone their mother re-married after their real dad was long gone. There are lots 'of points of views.'

Shmi Skywalker is probably lying, or not being literal when she says there was no father.

Anakin could lose his innocense about that and so many other things.

Luke was told the biggest lie of all - that his father was dead! Luke has to grow out of his age-of-innocense "i just got off the farm" thing too!

The world is gray and the Sith Darkened it. Obi-Wan was no longer a polished white Knight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Some points you make that I agree with:

I did always think that Yoda taught Obi-Wan in a Master-Apprentice relationship - not off screen before any prequel Lucas might do.

I also thought Anakin flew Starfighters as a young man (late teen) and Obi-Wan found him. I didn't know Jedi were taken as children. I hadn't thought about Yoda saying LUKE was too old during ESB. So Podracers (and an accident in an N1) were a surprise to me, too.

But it's not my story to write.

Hey, I also thought that if more people voted for Al Gore than George W. Bush, Gore would have been the President today.

Things aren't black and white though, and the world is not an ideal place. As President, George's father said "Read my lips: No new taxes!" Uh-huh. Our President is supposed to be above board, a role-model, a hero. Was Bill Clinton's personal affairs anything to be called idealic? So Star Wars is establishing itself as real. Obi-Wan is not perfect.

If you read the Expanded Universe, OBI-WAN KENOBI once quit the Jedi Order for the love of a woman / little girlfriend (Cerasi, leader of The Young freedom fighters on Melida-Daan). So he knows he wasn't perfect, but he's trying to teach Anakin, and then Luke, the correct path. "Do as I say, not as I do."

stillakid
04-15-2002, 12:13 AM
Hmm. I think I'm getting the gist of our differences on this stuff, Midi's and Qui Gon.

My stance as a viewer (as a writer myself), I give the writer the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's written everything down that he intends to be understood. So when I hear dialogue in a film, I take it at face value, whereas you guys read into it as if there are pieces of the puzzle that are missing on purpose.

Kasdan wrote a beautiful description of the Force in ESB which included no references to Midichlorians. If they had existed at that time, I have no doubt in my mind that such an excellent writer such as he, would have neglected to include them.

Same for ROTJ. When Obi says that it was from a certain point of view, and in light of everything else we know of him onscreen , I go with it.

Qui Gon didn't exist and shouldn't and Midi's didn't and shouldn't. Anything beyond that is just shoehorning a rationalization out of their absence in the OT.

But, hey, that's just my point of view. ;)

Wolfwood319
04-15-2002, 12:34 AM
First off, I apologize RooJay if my post offended you. I was just agreeing on Tychos post on his viewpoint of why the reasons the world was becoming over-populated. I never meant any disrespect to anyone's beliefs or religion. I never saw any put downs of anyone's beliefs in Tycho's post, and therefore did not see any in mine. I'm sorry.

EDIT: After re-reading both my post and the post I referred to, I found no mention of religous put-downs. I think that my term "cold hard truth" and use of the word "undiluted" is what upset you. I used those words in reference to Tycho's mention of high schoolers having children, drug addicts, etc. I said "undiluted" in that he sees the world for what it is, not some "sugar coated" happy world that textbooks, media outlets, poloticians, etc. try to say it is.

And I used the term "cold hard facts" as in the fact that kids are having children, and it is a problem, and so forth. I do not understand how I disrespected your beliefs, but again, I didn't mean to, and I apologize.


Now, onto the Qui-Gon matter;

When Obi-Wan said "When I first met your father..."

He never said anything about "Finding" him, or being the first to "find" him. He just said "when I met your father," not "I was the first Jedi Knight to find your father."

As for "I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him"

You can't say that anywhere in TPM proves that Obi-Wan wasn't amazed at how strong the force was with Anakin. I can say "I like Chocolate Pudding" without having to go into detail the specific chemical makeup of chocolate pudding, can't I?

"I took it upon myself..."

I don't see how you believe that Obi-Wan was the first to find Anakin from this line. He didn't say "Being the first to find him, I decided to train the boy..." He just said he trained the boy, which he does/did. The Jedi Council didn't want to train him, so he "took it upon himself."

You say its "shoehorning a rationalization out of their absence in the OT," I say your shoehorning a rationalization because you don't like them or their inclusion in the Star Wars mythos.

But hey, that's just my point of view.

bigbarada
04-15-2002, 01:20 AM
What do you mean Qui-Gonn didn't sense anything about Anakin before he did the Midi test?

"He has special powers."

"He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

"The Force is unusually stong with him."

"There's something about this boy."

What was all that? If you look closely you will see Qui-Gonn taking special notice of him when he walkes into Watto's shop. Evidence that he senses something great about the boy. If you watch any of his other non-SW films you will see that GL has his own way of telling a story that requires a lot of filling in the blanks by the audience.

I never said Obi-Wan was lying, I thought my posts made that clear. He just simplified the story to fit in the time needed for the movie. I know it's irritating, this reverse logic the prequels have forced us into. I have the same reaction when people say Vader held back Boba from shooting Chewie on Bespin to protect Threepio.:rolleyes:

Wolfwood, my opinions on population control revolve around my strong belief in God. My basic idea is that, if God wants us to be limited then he will find a way to do it. It's not our place to make those rules. Sure people will continue to have sex; but that is just indicative of the breakdown of morality in our culture. The population problem and rash of STDs are not the punishment, just the consequences of an immoral society. Like if a mother tells her son not to touch the hot skillet. If the son touches it behind her back, whose fault is it? Not the mother's since she warned him. Did she deliberately burn him as punishment? No, she just warned him of the consequences if he touched the skillet. God made those rules for a reason, not to oppress us or hold us back; but to simply protect us from the consequences that we couldn't possible foresee back then.

Tycho
04-15-2002, 01:45 AM
Barada:

Starvation is usually how God's plan works for other creatures that over-populate. It happens with humans too - look to Ethiopia's famine for an example.

But what is starvation, more basic than that? Competition for scarce resources. Like going for scarce jobs that provide food, scarcer homes that provide shelter for growing families, etc.

We basically need to evolve a plan that is less cruel than war - which is what competition for scarce resources eventually leads to. (oil shortages nowadays...) Starvation, if things ever got that bad (while food would not really be the resource we'd fight over nowadays) is at any rate a very cruel way to limit a population's growth. Meanwhile, war over land, economic expansion (jobs), and energy (natural resources) is just as cruel when we as human beings have the intelligence (as a gift or a result of our evolution) to find solutions that are so much better than the ones achieved with a Death Star.

Disease, whether sexually transmitted or not, is another way of limiting our population growth - or God's way of punishing the immoral (aids, STD's, etc).

Meanwhile though, population control principles apply equally to married couples who are "supposed to have children" as well. It's great to grow a religion, uh...literally by making more babies of that faith. But no wonder religious values aren't always taken and there is a moral decay from that standpoint: the larger the family, the harder it is to instill it in every child!

Like I was demonstrating in my 18 descendants example before, I used a married couple as an example. And procreation within marriage is acceptable under all religious codes I'm aware of (except the Jedi's :D )

Wolfwood319
04-15-2002, 02:07 AM
BB, I understand exactly what your saying, about how God and population control. But I never said that I population control was not a result of that. All I did was agree with Tycho on one post about the current population growth.

Let's not turn this into a theological debate here, though. Those never end up good, and usually just turn into attack-based posts. Let's keep this a friendly, light-hearted discussion on Star Wars, please.

Let me just say this, in reference to a quote;

"Individuals are smart, intelligent, and rational. People are dumd, stupid, and panicky."

I believe we can strive to be, and only will advance as a society, if we become a collected group of individuals.

mark2d2
04-15-2002, 02:31 AM
Okay, AIDS is not a punishment for the immoral. That is just flat out wicked to say. Sorry, but that was a very ignorant statement to make. Now, I don't know what Tycho's beliefs are in regards to this matter --- but that was simply not a very enlightened thing to post.

Besides, in Africa most of the people who are dying of AIDS ---- and tragically damn near everybody is dying of it in some parts of the continent, a friend of mine just returned from assignment over there ----- are Married or at least Straight. So, the whole AIDS is the wrath of God against all the "***gots" (Note: I can say this because I am one --- so please don't edit this post as I really am trying to make a point here) goes sailing right out the window.

Interesting side note --- One possible Real reason the Bible is so obsessed with Going Forth and Mulitplying is that for a long time Christians and members of the Jewish faith were a very much hunted and persecuted species. (This was especially true when they were these new and renegade religions that went against the norm.) The religious leaders of the day were justifiably paranoid about being wiped out. Clearly, that time is passed.

Tycho --- your views on population control are interesting. Rampant population growth could undoubtably be our undoing ---- the planet is already in serious trouble . . . That said ---- When you take into account your example of if we all have two kids, you've made a critical error in your calculation. If every couple has two kids than that is only one kid per person. So, that does slow things down a bit. (Though admittedly not enough.)

I don't know --- there are no easy answers. Look at China. Because of the one child only rule and the rather ridiculous over importance of having a Male child --- that country is now facing a real crisis. There is this insanely unnatural shortage of females. Hard to believe, but many couples simply chose to "quietly" kill their infant daughters and try again for a boy.

Egads, now I'm depressed. I think I'd best go have a cocktail and play with R4-M9 or something.

2-1B
04-15-2002, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
When Obi-Wan said "When I first met your father..."

He never said anything about "Finding" him, or being the first to "find" him. He just said "when I met your father," not "I was the first Jedi Knight to find your father."

I agree with that perspective, I always just took the statement at face value. I'm not saying that it's an unreasonable assumption that he "found" him, but one should not be locked into that theory. It could have been developed in TPM a few different ways.

Oh, and he didn't say when he first met him, but rather when he first knew him. Big difference in how I understand those two phrases. Looking back over a (approximately?) 40 year history with Anakin/Vader, the phrase "when I first knew him" can logically refer to the first several or more years of their relationship.


As for "I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him"

You can't say that anywhere in TPM proves that Obi-Wan wasn't amazed at how strong the force was with Anakin. I can say "I like Chocolate Pudding" without having to go into detail the specific chemical makeup of chocolate pudding, can't I?

I'm not convinced that Obi-Wan fully realized Anakin's strengths from TPM, but there is a quote from Obi-Wan in the newest trailer (I won't specify in case anyone avoided the trailers) that has me anticipating a link back to his "surprise" at Anakin's power.



"I took it upon myself..."

I don't see how you believe that Obi-Wan was the first to find Anakin from this line. He didn't say "Being the first to find him, I decided to train the boy..." He just said he trained the boy, which he does/did. The Jedi Council didn't want to train him, so he "took it upon himself."

I took this one at face value too. It always seemed to me that the important thing to understand was that Obi-Wan failed as a master, and he knew he failed. As to when or from whom he took over Anakin's training - that's fair game for the prequels to explain.


Based on the OT alone, I have no problem with Qui-Gon - so the only criticism I have of his inclusion is the fact that George W. had TPM planned out pretty far already with only Obi-Wan but then brought in his master to take over a lot of those scenes.

stillakid
04-15-2002, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
What do you mean Qui-Gonn didn't sense anything about Anakin before he did the Midi test?

"He has special powers."

"He can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

"The Force is unusually stong with him."

"There's something about this boy."

What was all that? If you look closely you will see Qui-Gonn taking special notice of him when he walkes into Watto's shop. Evidence that he senses something great about the boy. If you watch any of his other non-SW films you will see that GL has his own way of telling a story that requires a lot of filling in the blanks by the audience.



Uh uh. There is absolutely nothing in the script that the boy does until he brags about Pod Racing at dinner that suggests to anyone that he might be superhuman. No "doing." Lots and lots of "talking." The "quick reflexes" comment was pure conjecture by Qui Gon at that point in the story, which is crucially important because he assumed Jedi traits based purely on Anakin's talking about it, not from any kind of sensing or seeing.

The only reason Qui Gon takes a look at Ani is because he's an unexpected element in the middle of a junk shop. Qui Gon is talking with some bizarre flying creature when a 12 year old boy comes bouncing into the room. Who wouldn't look over at him? If the boy was so incredibly outstandingly stupifiyingly special, then why did Qui Gon just leave the shop? The only reason he ever talked to the boy is because of an incredibly convenient meeting in the market because of antics by comic sidekick Jar Jar Binks. There is no reason that Anakin should have been there at that moment. Just one of those convenient meetings to put them all together at the same time. So, no, there was no special notice of Ani in the shop.

I find it interesting that the LOTR is so popular while being about as cut and dried b&w as can be, but so much effort is put into looking for shades of gray in the Star Wars story. Lucas has never been one for creating stories of depth beyond one level, not that there is anything wrong with that. Star Wars, and just about all of his other stories, have been about as simplistic as can be. It's that B-movie, comic book, tv serial thing which is intended to be popcorn entertainment. Obi Wan is a good guy, Vader is the bad guy. About the only gray area built into this from the get-go was that Vader might not be so bad afterall. Beyond that, there isn't much more depth going on.


Originally posted by Wolfwood319
You say its "shoehorning a rationalization out of their absence in the OT," I say your shoehorning a rationalization because you don't like them or their inclusion in the Star Wars mythos.

But hey, that's just my point of view.

And in other news, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I didn't go into TPM looking for problems. I wanted to like it. So what that means is that the problems exist and I see them and react to them accordingly. I'm not creating problems out of nothing just because I don't want to like it. That's ridiculous. To throw out a line of argument like that tells me that some people are uneasy about facing the truth and would rather let GL's bad writing go without comment. Just as topics like population control or abortion or whatever, it's difficult to look at a situation in it's purest form, without preconceived notions and make a judgment about it. I'm just looking at what GEORGE wrote, not what I wrote. He made it plain as day that Obi Wan discovered Anakin and he decided to train the boy. I didn't. George did. Then he changed it. That's not my fault. I didn't invent it, I just watched it. If he intended to tell a different story, and paint characters differently, then it was his responsiblity to do so onscreen.



Originally posted by Tycho

Back to Star Wars, - I agree. Obi-Wan didn't complicate the story.

I remember Jedi Clint wrote something similar to this:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obi-Wan: When my Master Qui-Gon first met your father...

LUKE: You had a Master?

Obi-Wan: Yes, but that's nothing special now. All the Jedi apprenticed themselves to Masters from the Temple.

LUKE: There was a temple?

Obi-Wan: Yes, it was on Coruscant.

LUKE: Coruscant?

Obi-Wan: I'm sorry. It's called Imperial Center now.

Anyway, when my Master first met your father, he was already a great pilot...

LUKE: He was a pilot? I thought he was a navigator on a spice freighter.

Obi-Wan: He was a champion Pod-racer.

LUKE: Pod racing?

Obi-Wan: Like racing T-16's they used to run just loose engines chained together with energy binders though Beggar's Canyon.

LUKE: Wow! What kind of engines did my Dad prefer? My Skyhopper runs on Incom...

Obi-Wan: That's really not what we're discussing. I was saying when my Master first saw he was a great pilot but was then amazed at how strong the Force was with him. He took it upon himself to test Anakin's midichlorians.

LUKE: The Force? Midichlorians?

Obi-Wan: Well the Force is what gives the Jedi his powers. It's an energy field created by all living beings. The Jedi have adapted and grown specialized cells called midichlorians that help us feel the Force. It surrounds us, penetrates us; it's what binds the galaxy together.

R2D2 warbles something about an urgent message for Obi-Wan.

LUKE: Midichlorians?

Obi-Wan: Midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms that live in side all greater beings.

LUKE: They live inside me?

[Meanwhile, in another part of the galaxy, Alderaan is destroyed.]

LUKE: Hey Ben, are you alright?

Obi-Wan: I felt as if zillions of midichlorians all cried out in terror and were suddenly wiped out. I feel something terrible has happened. Anyway, as I was saying...

Yes, Midichlorians live inside you. They are symbiotic lifeforms.

LUKE: Symbiotic lifeforms?

[in another part of the galaxy - "She lied to us! Terminate her immediately!"]

Obi-Wan: Symbiotic Lifeforms are living organisms that mutally benefit other living organisms...

[In Docking Bay 94 - "Solo you don't even have a Charter Flight! If you don't have the credits, I'll just take your ship!"

HAN: Over my dead body!

Jabba nods to Boba Fett..... BLAM! Blam! Blam!]


Back in Ben's Hutt...

LUKE: So midichlorians could actually influence one to choose Radon-Uldar turbine engines over Incom's T-16 inboard fan models back when my father was racing in Beggar's Canyon?


BEN slowly puts his hands together, shudders one last sigh and fades into the Force.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, you get the idea. We simplify and provide information on a need-to-know basis and Luke did not need to know. Plus the audience did know because in 1977, they had "already seen" Episodes 1, 2, and 3.

And this! While it does amuse, it only proves my point that much more. Yeah, it's silly and ridiculous and exactly what GL must add to the OT to make it all work, but obviously that makes the OT so much less than it is. Clearly, the above author took great pains to make it as comical and ridiculous as possible and any additions to the OT would hopefully be done more professionally, but the idea is there. If Obi Wan did have a Master, then why does he tell Luke that he recognized Anakin's potential and that he decided to train him? Makes no sense. Even as a technique of simplification, had Qui Gon been invented back in 1977, it would serve the story no purpose to leave it out at that point. Exact same thing for Midichlorians. Several of us, some time ago, wrote equally silly dialogue that parallels this stuff for Midichlorians to illustrate just how idiotic that concept would sound in the OT. So, while it makes for a good stand-up act, using dialogue like this as an actual argument is merely a distraction technique to draw attention from the real contradictions.

2-1B
04-15-2002, 11:31 AM
stillakid
If Obi Wan did have a Master, then why does he tell Luke that he recognized Anakin's potential and that he decided to train him?

The "hows" of Obi-Wan coming to train Anakin are not laid out concretely in these scenes. One person might speculate that Obi-Wan found him, while another might leave it open for later explanation. Either way, there is room for interpretation and it's not unrealistic for the backstory to be more elaborate than Ben's little synopsis.

Obi-Wan telling Luke that he decided to train Anakin: how is that not present in the prequels, beginning with TPM? At the end of that movie, we literally see Obi-Wan "take it upon himself to train him as a Jedi."

:)

bigbarada
04-15-2002, 12:28 PM
Y'know, I beginning to really despise my internet connection. I lost another long post because my connection cut out.:mad:

Anyhoo, the gist:

mark2D2, I don't think Tycho really meant to say that AIDS was a punishment from God. He was just throwing a different point of view out there, not necessarily his own.

Why didn't Qui-Gonn stay when he sensed Aankin's strength in the Force? Simple. He was looking for a hyperdrive, not a possible Jedi.

Why did Anakin so conveniently show up at the marketplace? Easy, he got off of work early and decided to follow these strangers because he was so entranced with Padme. Hey, 9-year-olds tend to do that sort of thing.

Will GL rewrite the OT? Probably. Tolkein rewrote The Hobbit, 17 years after it's initial publishing. The simple fact is, writers get new ideas and toss out old ones. If something GL wrote into the OT no longer jives with where he wants the saga to go, then changing it is his perogative.

Why didn't Ben or Yoda describe midis to Luke? Your own explaination answers this, stillakid. The description of the midis is for the audience not the characters. When these movies are watched in order, the audience will have already sat through one explaination. Why force them to sit through another? Luke doesn't need to know, he's not real.

I'm sure there were people who were pretty peeved at Tolkien for rewriting their favorite book. I'm sure there are some who never forgave him for it; but they are all dead now so it makes little difference.:)

No one is arguing that midis and Qui-Gonn (my favorite TPM character) existed in Lucas' mind in 1974 when he was writing ANH. It's obvious there were added in during the later rewrites of TPM. I don't see how this negates their worth to the story. Writers come up with new ideas all the time.

Well, that's all I can remember about my lost post. If I remember any more I will type it up.

2-1B
04-15-2002, 12:33 PM
bigB, not long ago I also had problems with getting disconnected after clicking "post reply". It's a real pain, but I got in the habit of copying my longer posts before sending. That saved me the frustration of having to retype. :)

bigbarada
04-15-2002, 12:40 PM
Thanks for the advice Caesar, I'll make sure to do that for all my well thought out, stroke of genius posts. ... Okay just all of my really long posts.:D

stillakid
04-15-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Y'know, I beginning to really despise my internet connection. I lost another long post because my connection cut out.:mad:

Anyhoo, the gist:

mark2D2, I don't think Tycho really meant to say that AIDS was a punishment from God. He was just throwing a different point of view out there, not necessarily his own.

Why didn't Qui-Gonn stay when he sensed Aankin's strength in the Force? Simple. He was looking for a hyperdrive, not a possible Jedi.

Why did Anakin so conveniently show up at the marketplace? Easy, he got off of work early and decided to follow these strangers because he was so entranced with Padme. Hey, 9-year-olds tend to do that sort of thing.

Will GL rewrite the OT? Probably. Tolkein rewrote The Hobbit, 17 years after it's initial publishing. The simple fact is, writers get new ideas and toss out old ones. If something GL wrote into the OT no longer jives with where he wants the saga to go, then changing it is his perogative.

Why didn't Ben or Yoda describe midis to Luke? Your own explaination answers this, stillakid. The description of the midis is for the audience not the characters. When these movies are watched in order, the audience will have already sat through one explaination. Why force them to sit through another? Luke doesn't need to know, he's not real.

I'm sure there were people who were pretty peeved at Tolkien for rewriting their favorite book. I'm sure there are some who never forgave him for it; but they are all dead now so it makes little difference.:)

No one is arguing that midis and Qui-Gonn (my favorite TPM character) existed in Lucas' mind in 1974 when he was writing ANH. It's obvious there were added in during the later rewrites of TPM. I don't see how this negates their worth to the story. Writers come up with new ideas all the time.

Well, that's all I can remember about my lost post. If I remember any more I will type it up.


Oddly enough, I'll buy that. Well, most of it anyhow...;) To explain what I don't buy would just be me repeating myself again, and who wants to hear that?!:eek:

Perhaps, one day, when I have absolutely nothing to do and no responsibilities (read: probably never), I could take the OT screenplays and contrast them properly with the TPM screenplay (and theoretically, AOTC and EP 3) to illustrate clearly line by line just why TPM messes up everything that audiences fell in love with years before. It is just sooooo obvious, my biggest frustration (curiousity) is how so few people see it. Maybe it's like one of those 3D Mind's Eye posters that were all the rage a few years back. For some, it comes into focus, others not. It's too difficult to deal with these issues piecemeal like this. We just keep chasing our tails.

In any case, I wish that I could block out the problems like everyone else and enjoy the thing. Despite that, I look forward to seeing Attack of the Clones. Being a non-spoiler fanatic, I don't know word one of the plot, but I optimistically hope that GL has taken the onslaught of critical review to heart and downplayed all of this to where it isn't really important to the story as it was in TPM (ie, no mass Midi counting going on, and Qui Gon is dead and gone anyway, so no ghosts!, etc)

So, in other words, I want to get back to what's really important: where are the toys?!:happy:

bigbarada
04-15-2002, 02:05 PM
I will give you one spoiler you might be glad to hear. In the latest Insider, McCallum states that "contrary to rumors, actor Liam Neeson did not film anything for Episode 2." Hope you can sleep better knowing that.:)

Wolfwood319
04-15-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
It is just sooooo obvious, my biggest frustration (curiousity) is how so few people see it. Maybe it's like one of those 3D Mind's Eye posters that were all the rage a few years back. For some, it comes into focus, others not. It's too difficult to deal with these issues piecemeal like this. We just keep chasing our tails.

In any case, I wish that I could block out the problems like everyone else and enjoy the thing.

I still can't get over the way you present your arguments as FACT. There are problems, FACT. People block out said problems, FACT.

Like I said before, its all open to interpretation. You see problems where others obviously don't. I see nothing in Qui-Gon's character that conflicts with what Obi-Wan said in ANH. Obi-Wan never said "he found him first," he never said ''under what circumstances did he find him,'' he never even said he did find him.

Tycho's dialogue, while comical also proves a point. No matter what background story that GL finally did come up with, the fact of the matter is Obi-Wan never goes indepth about the specifics of meeting Anakin, why he trained him, etc. So theoretically, you would want the backstory, no matter what it turned out to be, to be present in Ben's dialogue.


There is no reason that Anakin should have been there at that moment. Just one of those convenient meetings to put them all together at the same time. So, no, there was no special notice of Ani in the shop.

That's like saying that there is no reason that your parents should have met, it was just a convenient meeting. Everything is convenient, not only in every movie, but in real life as well.

You assume more from 4 lines of dialogue in ANH, then I do of all TPM.


"When I first knew your father he was already a great pilot."

You say this line heavily implies that Obi-Wan found Anakin and saw him as a great pilot, and he did this first hand. My question is, what makes you think that? He never said he was the first to meet him, all he's saying is that during the early period of him knowing Anakin, Anakin was a great pilot.

You say that TPM fans have a way of rationalizing TPM so if fits with OT, but then you go and assume the entire context of the movie from 12 words. I think you look too much into this. Where does it even imply that Obi-Wan was the first to meet him? He doesn't even go into how Obi-Wan met Anakin. Yet, you say this one line, along with a few others, totally contradicts Qui-Gon being in TPM.

I think its sooooo obvious that it doesn't, and your just stretching to rationalize your views of TPM yourself.

stillakid
04-15-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I will give you one spoiler you might be glad to hear. In the latest Insider, McCallum states that "contrary to rumors, actor Liam Neeson did not film anything for Episode 2." Hope you can sleep better knowing that.:)


:D



:zzz: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



Now, how do we put the Midi's to bed?;)

SithDroid
04-15-2002, 02:37 PM
Tycho, that revised ANH script you wrote was hilarious, which once again proves that the midichlorians weren't the original idea all along.

bigbarada
04-15-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Tycho, that revised ANH script you wrote was hilarious, which once again proves that the midichlorians weren't the original idea all along.

Of course they weren't the idea all along! I don't think anyone here believes midichlorians were in GL's mind at all back in 1975 when he wrote ANH. They were obviously something he thought up in the eleven year gap between ROTJ's release and when he started working on Ep1 (83-94). However, just because they are latecomers to the story doesn't mean they are invalid. That, my friend, is still just a matter of opinion.

Tycho
04-15-2002, 03:23 PM
Right. I agree exactly with BigBarada's last post.

Also, just because I know they weren't the idea all along, not that something nameless but biologically inherited wasn't, doens't mean they can't be included now without making a mess.

My point at the humor was that Luke didn't need to know right then, at that moment. Or at any point during the classic trilogy.

And now, be it after the fact or not, the audience does know if they watch the movies in order, Episode One first.

I didn't see objections to a light non-spoiler before, so far as I can tell from the best version of the complete script that I have seen,

Midichlorians are not mentioned in Episode 2 at all.

I still think they might be important for cloning purposes or perhaps Palpatine seeks to irradicate them from the gene pools of every species he can, so that only he can access the Force. The fewer using it, the easier they could be detected too, I'm sure.

To add something about our tangent topic in here: I simply was sarcastically reitterating religious dogma I've heard before - that AIDS is punishment from God for sexual immorality. That actually does imply homosexuals often enough in the religious use of that dogma, however I am a happily amoral heterosexual (well, OK - I do want to find "the right girl" but I just haven't yet ) and the religious can often take just as strong of stance calling sex between an unmarried man and woman immoral as well. So I take offense at the calling of any kind of sex "amoral" in the first place - save for the irresponsible kind that fails to prevent unwanted or too-frequent of pregnancies or the kind that fails to stop diseases from spreading. I meant no offense to homosexuals and have no opinion on that subject matter save for the fact that gays are people just like everybody else, and if they want to leave more women for me, well then that's nice!

RooJay
04-15-2002, 05:01 PM
Thanks again Tycho. I think I'll let that "blindly obedient" crack go though. For the record my faith is not, and never has been "blind".
I'd also like to thank Wolfwood for clarifying, but I think this whole misunderstanding just goes to show that this forum is not really the place to be discussing ones religious beliefs. :happy:

RooJay
04-15-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
And I used the term "cold hard facts" as in the fact that kids are having children, and it is a problem, and so forth. I do not understand how I disrespected your beliefs, but again, I didn't mean to, and I apologize.

Just a simple misunderstanding. No harm, no foul.



Originally posted by Wolfwood319
"I took it upon myself..."

I don't see how you believe that Obi-Wan was the first to find Anakin from this line. He didn't say "Being the first to find him, I decided to train the boy..." He just said he trained the boy, which he does/did. The Jedi Council didn't want to train him, so he "took it upon himself."

This is true, but my version sounds more like this: When Qui_gon asked Obi Wan to train Anakin, Obi Wan didn't go to some other Jedi and say "Hey, Qui-Gon asked me to train this kid, but I don't want to. Would you mind doing it for me? Thanks.". So in essence, he did indeed take it upon himself...after he was asked by Qui-Gon.


Originally posted by Wolfwood319
You say its "shoehorning a rationalization out of their absence in the OT," I say your shoehorning a rationalization because you don't like them or their inclusion in the Star Wars mythos.

But hey, that's just my point of view.

EXACTLY the point I've been trying to make! Stillakid, you are more than welcome to believe that Qui-Gon and midichlorians are stupid ideas (who are we to tell you they're not?), but they have been made part of the story that so many of us love, and since they don't contradict the OT at all (which I think some of us have explained quite well) it's only natural to rationalize them. We all know for a FACT that they didn't exist, and hadn't been thought up during the time the OT was produced, but now they are part of the story.

JediTricks
04-15-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
So, the whole AIDS is the wrath of God against all the "***gots" (Note: I can say this because I am one --- so please don't edit this post as I really am trying to make a point here) goes sailing right out the window.As moderator of these forums, let me say that this term used above is hate-speech no matter who is saying it. Our forums are not up to the standards of whomever is using them at the time, they're supposed to be held up by civility and the rules Steve has been forced to put forth to keep the site from being closed down. Whether any of the staff members of the site agree with mark2d2's point about AIDS or not is 100% besides the point I'm making here, this site is an all-ages site and hate speech - no matter the context - is not allowed by anybody. This sort of behavior puts the entire forums at risk; I do not want to see this sort of thing in here again, not by anybody.

stillakid
04-15-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319


I still can't get over the way you present your arguments as FACT. There are problems, FACT. People block out said problems, FACT.




It's a talent! ;)

But really, what's the point in believing something if you don't think that it's true? It's not like we're talking about something as intangible as the existence of God. There's no proof anywhere for that topic. Lots of belief, but no proof. On the other hand, GL's own words, both in script and in interviews illustrate what the original intentions of the OT were, so it's easy to see why TPM conflicts.

Yeah, I can see how with a certain amount of twisting one could figure a way to squeeze the new elements into the story, but the end result is something that is far less eloquent than the OT was originally presented as. With Qui Gon and Midi's, the crisp and efficient writing of the saga got sloppy.

Tonysmo
04-15-2002, 07:55 PM
so... anyone think Jango will be the biggest character of Episode 2?

anyone think Mace will lose that whole I can't beilieve Im doing this scene with puppets look?

anyone have ANYTHING to talk about besides religion and MIDI's?

just making light of the last 7 pages of posts that all say the same thing.. sorry..

They are most intertaining though. and Im learning quite abit.

here is a question. Why is it that in A New Hope Obi Wan suggests he doesnt remember ever owning a droid, yet he doesnt even seem to recognize that he may have spent a good 20 years next to those two droids.. granted he may never have owned them, but you would think he would have been a bit excited to see them..

yeah, thats a good question, tear that one to shreds..

relax guys, its science fiction...

its only THE GREATEST SAGA EVER!!

stillakid
04-15-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Tonysmo
so... anyone think Jango will be the biggest character of Episode 2?

anyone think Mace will lose that whole I can't beilieve Im doing this scene with puppets look?

anyone have ANYTHING to talk about besides religion and MIDI's?

just making light of the last 7 pages of posts that all say the same thing.. sorry..

They are most intertaining though. and Im learning quite abit.

here is a question. Why is it that in A New Hope Obi Wan suggests he doesnt remember ever owning a droid, yet he doesnt even seem to recognize that he may have spent a good 20 years next to those two droids.. granted he may never have owned them, but you would think he would have been a bit excited to see them..

yeah, thats a good question, tear that one to shreds..

relax guys, its science fiction...

its only THE GREATEST SAGA EVER!!


What do you mean, you don't understand why Obi Wan can't remember owni....

Just kidding! :D

Actually, I will disagree with you on your very last statement. From my own personal experience, the Dune Series is the greatest saga ever. Incredibly complex plot, with intensely real environments, populated by rich diverse characters and he (and now his son) manages to maintain perfect continuity throughout the 9 ( I believe that it's up to 9) books in the series. If ever that universe could be properly realized onscreen then we'd really have something to talk about. But it is so complex, that novelization is where it belongs in the end, as the silver screen puts too many demands upon a story to be simplified.

But that question of Obi Wan owning the droids is worthy of discussion...but only after we see Ep III. Maybe he never does own them or hang out with them. Time will tell.

stillakid
04-16-2002, 12:33 AM
I just came across this quote that seems appropo for this discussion:

Fiction is a lie, and good fiction is the truth inside the lie.

-- Stephen King

2-1B
04-16-2002, 12:50 AM
Hmm, I've been thinking about this poll question for some time now, and I think I could almost vote "I have no fears". I'm heavily spoiled, and going off of my assumptions I think it's going to be great fun. I expect there to be some silly moments, I just don't expect anything to come out of nowhere to cause serious problems for me. In fact, in light of my great enjoyment of TPM, I have the impression that I will like AOTC twice as much. And I may even see it as a more appropriate Episode I. I'll let you know in 1 month. :D

:)

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 01:05 AM
Dune sucks! I couldn't even get through the first book when I tried reading way back in the heyday. Hey, its kind of fun to put things down... Dune was just never my cup of tea.

From what I've seen, Sammy J. seems to be on top of his game in this. I also think he settled into his role this time around, and was more comfortable with it. My only concern is Hayden. I like the kid, but some of that dialogue in those last trailers made me cringe, a la "I was going into Toche station to pick up some power converters."

I think Jango is already the biggest character in AOTC, if simply from a marketing stand point. Not only is he this movie's Darth Maul, but he actually does stuff, unlike Maul. I personally think overall that Obi, Dooku, and Mace will steal the show.

I don't know about that droid statement though. I've been perplexed by it for a while now. R2 seems to know Obi, but not vice versa. Maybe Obi just doesn't interact with the droids that much. I mean he really didn't interact with him in TPM.


relax guys, its science fiction...

Good advice

stillakid
04-16-2002, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Tonysmo
relax guys, its science fiction...



(deep breath) aaahhhhhh


(thought bubble)
{i think i'll look for toys tomorrow morning}

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 01:29 AM
(reading Stillakid's mind...)

Not a bad idea, I think I'll do the same on my lunch break. Maybe find some new AOTC or other goodies. Nothing like adding to the excitement of the new film then getting toys, eh!

CaptainSolo1138
04-16-2002, 01:37 AM
I would've added to the excitement had it not been for Wal-Mart and they're stupid "Item Not For Sale" message on they're stupid cash registers. AARRGGHH!!! Damn you, Sam Walton!!!

So I just went to Kohl's and did it!:)

Tycho
04-16-2002, 02:01 AM
OK - There are 2 new things to discuss. And they're on topic! He-he.

Droids: Obi-Wan has never yet met C-3PO, who eventually will look like any other protocal droid. To him, 3PO won't be any different than TC-14. Plus 3PO changes colors (with getting gold eventually) so Obi-Wan won't recognize him. If he interacts with him at all by Episode 3, (or scenes in E2 I don't know about), is debatable, but we won't know any time soon.

By name, if he realizes he has Anakin's son, Anakin's droid, and a message from Anakin's daughter - all by the time Leia's hologram is activated, then the past will truly come back to haunt him.

On a side note, don't you just love how the prequels actually have done something wonderful for Obi-Wan? They have totally elevated interest in his character in ANH for people of all ages. When I was a kid, Ben was "the old dude." Now, he is often the most interesting character in that movie. Gosh I feel like watching ANH right now...

But I'll continue writing (everyone groans...) - well I've seen that movie before!

On to R2D2. Obi-Wan definitely remembers R2 I think. And R2 whistles - surprised at how time has been unkind to the older Obi-Wan as the droid recognizes him out on the Dune Sea, 18 years since they last met. Obi-Wan knows who R2 is, but never owned him. His first thought might be here's Luke, and here is his mother's droid. What does the Force have in store for me? Obi-Wan truly believed in a destiny - or two possible ones: Luke serving to force the fall of the Empire, or Luke falling like his father. R2's arrival is an omen or harbringer for Obi-Wan's beliefs in his appointment with destiny. This cumulates in his acceptance of joining and becoming one with the Force during his confrontation with Darth Vader. Obi-Wan had finally become a true Jedi Master and he was prepared for this.

That's another point I'd forgotton. 24 year-olds do NOT become Jedi Masters and start training padawans. I don't know what the average age is for them to begin their stage in life as the teacher, but at 24 some of them aren't even Knights.

Obi-Wan might not have been a failure as a Master the first time around, had he gotten a padawan - even Anakin - when Obi-Wan was the proper age.

To complicate matters, Anakin was an inappropriate age to become an apprentice. He'd not been sheltered and he had too many ties, loyalties, and opinions about the ways of the world to be a true believer in Jedi dogma. That goes back to our religious discussion. Anakin "the virgin born" is comparative to the atheist. He believes he is above Jedi dogma and he strays from it.

Obi-Wan's faith is shaken - by the death of his unorthodox master, the return of the Sith, a much prophesized-about child he has doubts he can train, etc. AOTC will really throw him a curve ball in the scene in the trailer we saw where Dooku tempts him to join him! Spoilers should stay out of this discussion, but those who know the rest, should know exactly why I brought that up.

So Obi-Wan is a great Jedi, no doubt - but everything he's believed gets torn down by the unorthodox, the hypocritical, and the non-believers (including one he's apprenticed). He was too young to deal with this stuff as a Master however, and others (here in these boards, as well as characters like Luminari, Adi-Gallia, etc. have an over-inflated sense of confidence in Obi-Wan like he could handle anything!)

Finally, off that subject, but on fears of AOTC, the love story is remarkably well-written. But what part of the audience will be turned off by it? It's not the special effects, or appocalyptic drama and action sequences of the film. But it is really well-written (in the script) and it is soooo important.

Others like Star Wars for the enjoyment of the politics, the intergalactic Civil War. Some appreciate it's aspects like "The Godfather (in space)" in its telling the tale of the Skywalkers - what Lucas says it's about (or Mon Mothma and Palpatine would be more central characters quite frankly).

But in the Skywalkers' tale, especially Anakin's fall, and Luke and Leia's birth, the love story is so essential - and it really elevates the sense of passion explored in the movie similar to the OT's most dramatic moment when Princess Leia's true hope for love is frozen in a blinding burst of liquid carbonite.

Expect AOTC to deliver this kind of emotion between Anakin and Padme's character development. Wow!

I just hope people are going to get into it and not lose track of their patience with that part. The love story is integral to what is happening to Anakin!

Any fears about that? or Droids anyone?

(last comment, the onboard head and CPU of an astromech Anakin rescued from a junk heap was designed to help his master on his Delta-7 Starfighter. Obi-Wan technically owns that maybe, or it is a gift to all the Jedi, but the droid is specifically programmed by Anakin to watch out for his Master (because Anakin thinks he knows best, and gives - as he built 3PO for his mother). This is not a spoiler, but a sweet piece of background the Official Site added in to "officially" develop the characters and explain how Lucas, who wanted a familiar for Obi-Wan to talk to on his adventures alone during the movie, said to put an astrodroid on board the Delta 7 with no idea how a "real" one would fit. But I really LIKE That story they made up! You?

Tycho
04-16-2002, 02:03 AM
Toy Hunters - try K-Mart if you are going hunting this week.

Slave-One, Deluxe Obi-Wan, Dooku, Jango, Mace, role-play lightsabers (and Dooku's is SWWWWEEEET!)

Just as a side note. Now "Stay on target! Stay on target!"

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 02:15 AM
I always believed that Anakin's love is what turns him to the dark side, and for many reasons. I'd go into detail with this, but it would involve AOTC spoilers, so I won't right now.

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 03:26 AM
My only fear has nothing to do with the film, as I know I will like it. It has to do with that small group of idiotic fans who will see the love story element as cheesy or schmalzty and decide to ruin it for everyone else. I really wish those people would just grow up.

Cool little tidbit of info on Obi-Wan's droid head!;)

The whole why doesn't this person recognize Threepio or why doesn't Artoo remember this, is such a non-issue. I think it will be implied that the droids' memories are wiped sometime between Ep3 and 4. Not bad storytelling, just not wasting time with unnecessary details.

2-1B
04-16-2002, 12:13 PM
bigB, about the droid memories:

I agree Threeps will probably get his erased at some point, and if we don't see it I will just assume so. But I really hope R2's remains intact, it seems cool to me that he is running (rolling :D )around in the OT with knowledge of everything that's happened while 3PO is completely ignorant. :)

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 12:27 PM
Caesar, I see your Rick McCallum fixation is back.;)

Even if Artoo did know the secrets of the galaxy, whose gonna understand him? Anything Threepio doesn't understand he dismisses as delusions or nonsense. So Artoos secret is safe.:)

2-1B
04-16-2002, 12:35 PM
Exactly! It makes Threeps come off as pompous and arrogant, when the joke is really on him.

BTW, you're pushing 2000 posts. Are you gonna "retire" like Rollo and come back with a new name? Like littlebarada? :D

stillakid
04-16-2002, 12:58 PM
(stillakid bops his head, in Homer Simpson style)
Doh!

I just remembered the smoking gun...


ESB
EXT. HOTH EVENING

A ghostly image of Obi Wan appears just within Luke's view.

Obi Wan
Luke

Luke manages a groan.

Obi Wan
You must go to the Dagobah system.

Luke
Dagobah?

Obi Wan
There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.
Luke
Beeennnn!


The key here is the the word "THE." By the end of TPM, Obi Wan is accepted as a full on Jedi, fresh from being trained by Qui Gon. Ghost Obi Wan doesn't say a Jedi Master who instructed me, he says the Jedi Master who instructed me. So, I know I'll have to spell this out, according to the actual words in The Empire Strikes Back (that's Episode V) (...that Lawrence Kasdan wrote based upon an idea by George Lucas), Obi Wan's teacher was Yoda. Period. End of sentence.

I know, I know. I've heard it before, the argument that "well, Yoda could've been part of his training before or after." Doesn't hold up because TPM never alludes to any such thing, and the chain of events as described by ANH, ESB, and ROTJ says that Obi Wan went through his training (with Yoda), then found Anakin, and presumably (as described by TPM), one cannot teach a Padawan until they themselves go through the "trials," whatever the hell that means. So Obi Wan's training didn't continue after the end of TPM, which means we can only assume that his teaching came during TPM or before. As we see his teacher being Qui Gon during the film and take into account Ghost Obi Wan's dialogue in ESB saying that Yoda was his Master, then the contradiction becomes clear. It's really like doing a "proof" in Calculus. Once you find the variables, the work is easy.

I knew that there was something quite definitive that I was forgetting before. One word makes all the difference in the world. But I suppose that'll be an easy fix for Mr. Burtt when the OT DVD is re-edited.

As far as R2 (and 3PO) go, I really don't think we can properly speculate on it until we've actually seen Ep II and since Ep III hasn't even been written yet, there's no telling what Obi Wan's relationship to the droids will be.

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 01:02 PM
Ahh, but they have explained that. And all will be explained even further in AOTC.

Yoda trains all young Jedis. Then they become Padawans, and are taken under the wing of a Jedi Master who takes them into the galaxy, a la Qui-Gon taking Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was trained in the ways of the Jedi by Yoda, but then he became Qui-Gon's Padawan learner after he finished his training with Yoda.

I think all this came out very shortly after TPM was first released, too, in response to the above allogation.

stillakid
04-16-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
Ahh, but they have explained that. And all will be explained even further in AOTC.

Yoda trains all young Jedis. Then they become Padawans, and are taken under the wing of a Jedi Master who takes them into the galaxy, a la Qui-Gon taking Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was trained in the ways of the Jedi by Yoda, but then he became Qui-Gon's Padawan learner after he finished his training with Yoda.

I think all this came out very shortly after TPM was first released, too, in response to the above allogation.


Oooohhhhh....

But that doesn't explain the "the" in ESB when it should have been a "a." This is what I'm getting at when I use the word "contradiction" and go on and on about the OT and prequels not being compatible. Yeah, it seems like such a minute point, but it is in there. It's about as small a detail as Greedo firing first, but that too changed the entire scope of Solo's character arc. It's the little things that make the difference.

RooJay
04-16-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Droids: Obi-Wan has never yet met C-3PO, who eventually will look like any other protocal droid. To him, 3PO won't be any different than TC-14. Plus 3PO changes colors (with getting gold eventually) so Obi-Wan won't recognize him. If he interacts with him at all by Episode 3, (or scenes in E2 I don't know about), is debatable, but we won't know any time soon.

True that! In the very first scene we see 3-PO in there is another protocol droid that looks exactly like him except for the color. We see another 3-PO lookalike in ESB just before 3-PO gets blasted. I don't recall exactly whether or not he's the same color, but he even has 3-PO's exact same voice! I think it's same to assume that 3-PO is a lot like hundred of other gold protocol droids in the Star Wars universe.



Originally posted by Tycho
That's another point I'd forgotton. 24 year-olds do NOT become Jedi Masters and start training padawans. I don't know what the average age is for them to begin their stage in life as the teacher, but at 24 some of them aren't even Knights.

WOW! That's something that hadn't even occured to me! In the new Visual Dictionary there is a great picture of a background Jedi with a head full of grey hair wearing a Padawan's braid. Talk about being kept back a few years! It's good to know that even Jedi can suffer from learning disabilities!


Originally posted by Tycho
To complicate matters, Anakin was an inappropriate age to become an apprentice. He'd not been sheltered and he had too many ties, loyalties, and opinions about the ways of the world to be a true believer in Jedi dogma. That goes back to our religious discussion. Anakin "the virgin born" is comparative to the atheist. He believes he is above Jedi dogma and he strays from it.

Another great notion! I suppose that, knowing what he knows about himself, Anakin really could fall to believing that he is better than the Jedi. It's easy to see how he might eventually come to feel that it's his destiny to use the Force as a tool to gain power as a Sith Lord, rather than becoming a servant to the Force as a Jedi. I think this just makes his turningPoor guy, seems to me like he really didn't have much hope of making it out on the right side of the fence.

To address Stillakid's theory about Yoda having been Obi Wan's ONLY master: In the quote you posted, you might note that the word "the" is not emphasised; therefore, it in no way states that he is saying Yoda was his ONLY master. Now, had he said "THE jedi master that trained me", with the emphasis on the word "the" then you might've had a valid argument. The quote as used in the movie would, using your logic, be similar to this: "...and when you go to Dagobah, take THE car I used back in the day.". Whereas, we actually hear Obi Wan saying something more like this: "...take the car I used to use...". The former makes it sound as though Obi Wan only ever used ONE car, while the latter indicates that he is loaning Luke ONE of the two or more cars he's has used in the past.:happy:

stillakid
04-16-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

To address Stillakid's theory about Yoda having been Obi Wan's ONLY master: In the quote you posted, you might note that the word "the" is not emphasised; therefore, it in no way states that he is saying Yoda was his ONLY master. Now, had he said "THE jedi master that trained me", with the emphasis on the word "the" then you might've had a valid argument. The quote as used in the movie would, using your logic, be similar to this: "...and when you go to Dagobah, take THE car I used back in the day.". Whereas, we actually hear Obi Wan saying something more like this: "...take the car I used to use...". The former makes it sound as though Obi Wan only ever used ONE car, while the latter indicates that he is loaning Luke ONE of the two or more cars he's has used in the past.:happy:


It's nice to see someone as stubborn as I am! ;) I have an airtight argument and you argue annunciation?! If you want to go down that road, he does in fact put a little pepper on the word "the." There's no way out of this one. Obi said it. End of story. He said that Yoda was "the" master, his master. Then GL changed it. How much clearer does it have to get? :confused:

SithDroid
04-16-2002, 02:13 PM
I agree with you stillakid, keep on bring up all these relevant points as I've grown tired of this long debate.

Tycho - Wasn't Obi-Wan made a Jedi Knight and not a Jedi Master. I believe that Yoda bestowed upon him the rank of Jedi Knight at the end of TPM.

Tycho
04-16-2002, 02:19 PM
Stillakid: You are trying way, way, way too hard!

I think you should change your nick to "Still-Obi-Wan's-Only-Fan!"

You seem to have some characteristics that are more than apparent:

you definitely have experience film critiquing, did not like TPM, and tie in a definite fixation for Obi-Wan's character into all of this - and you secretly wanted to be Luke Skywalker ever since you first saw StarWars when you actually were a little kid. Right?

(I'm sure you'd love midichlorians if you could go down to the local store, have some CLONED, and get a fresh transfusion so you could levitate your Jedi Starfighter....)

Now I would guess that either Luke or Obi-Wan is your favorite SW character, without making just a random shot in the dark.

That's alright: Obi-Wan is going to be my favorite Episode 2 character I think. Possibly Anakin. Obi-Wan is also a strong interest of mine in all the Classic films - a large part due to his appearances in the prequels.

Meanwhile, something you could guess about me: Qui-Gon Jinn was my favorite character in Episode 1. (you just thought to yourself, "it figures...." *sigh*)

That can bias some of our opinions, and I do think it does in my case, as I liked Qui-Gon. Did you not like him? (independent of the Classic Trilogy's preconceptions you had)

Are you Obi-Wan's biggest fan? (I love his character too. I'm not 'picking on you for it,' that would be a stupid thing to do - especially when we could all gang up on people who like Lobot as their favorite character ;) )

But anyway, it can color people's opinions too. If they didn't like something or someone, they can really rationalize something to death - like this thread demonstrates.

Meanwhile, I've adapted the scene on Hoth for ESB- The Extra-Special, Special Edition:

[Ent Scene - Luke is down, freezing to death on Hoth after having just narrowly escaped from the Wampa Cave...]

Ben's Ghost Appears Before Him:

BEN: "Luke.....LUKE!"

LUKE: "Ben?"

BEN: "You will go to the Dagobah System."

LUKE: "Dagobah System?"

BEN: "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi who instructed me when I was young."

LUKE: "YOU were young?"

BEN: "I was once young."

LUKE: "But I'm freezing to death and must be having hypothermic hallucinations, because you don't look that good."

BEN: "Neither do you right now. But as for me, it's because I'm dead."

LUKE: "But you were young once before you were dead?"

BEN: *sigh* "I was young before I became dead."

LUKE: "I'm sorry, I---ggg-got dda dda da shakes here... So you were also instructed by this Yoda dude before you were dead?"

BEN: "I was trained by several Masters."

LUKE: "Well didn't any of them teach you how to make a fire? I'm young now but I'm freezing to death here!"

RooJay
04-16-2002, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by stillakid



It's nice to see someone as stubborn as I am! ;) I have an airtight argument and you argue annunciation?! If you want to go down that road, he does in fact put a little pepper on the word "the." There's no way out of this one. Obi said it. End of story. He said that Yoda was "the" master, his master. Then GL changed it. How much clearer does it have to get? :confused:

No he didn't.;) :D

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 02:54 PM
"Go down the hall to room 215, there you'll find Mr. Kovik, the economics professor that taught me."

Now, does this mean I only had one professor, no, not at all. But I could say this and it would still be the truth, Mr. Kovik was indeed my economics professor, but not my only economics professor.

See, so it can be taken many ways, at any given point of time. And remember you'll find that many of the truths you cling to depend greatly on one's point of view.

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 02:59 PM
How about this:

Ben: "There you will find Yoda, one of the Jedi Masters who instructed me."

Luke: "One of them? How many masters did you have?"

Ben: "Well, two."

Luke: "Who was the other one?"

Ben: "His name was Qui-Gonn Jinn, but that's not really important right now...."

Luke: "Why did you have two masters?"

Ben: "Well, all Jedi did back then.....this is not important. You must go find Yoda!"

Luke: "Which one is he again?"

Ben: "Aw, screw this! I'm going to find your sister!"

Luke: "I have a sis...?" **urk**:dead:

:D

Hmmm, this road seems very familiar.:rolleyes: Let me clarify this again: Qui-Gonn, Midis, or the fact that anybody other than Yoda train Obi-Wan simply did not exist before TPM was written. GL's perogative, remember? So seeing as how you have supposedly found "indisputable proof" that TPM contradicts the OT, this begs certain questions be asked:

1. Did GL renig on some of the things he wrote into the OT? Depends on how many hairs you want to split.

2. If GL did contradict the OT with the PT does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? No.

3. Will GL re-edit the OT to fit better with his new storyline? Maybe.

4. If he does will it matter? No.

5. If he doesn't will it matter? No.

Honestly, I agree with Sithdroid, this argument is getting tiresome. Nobody is convincing anybody of anything here. We're just all banging our heads against a brick wall. Stillakid, keeping on hating TPM and Qui-Gonn and Midis all ya want. It no longer really matters. TPM will always be one of my favorite movies and I accept all of it's flaws and "contradictions" as simply part of it's charm.

Caesar, I'm thinking of changing my name to "kidkithaba" after I reach 2000 posts. How does that sound? :D

stillakid
04-16-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Stillakid: You are trying way, way, way too hard!

I think you should change your nick to "Still-Obi-Wan's-Only-Fan!"

You seem to have some characteristics that are more than apparent:

you definitely have experience film critiquing, did not like TPM, and tie in a definite fixation for Obi-Wan's character into all of this - and you secretly wanted to be Luke Skywalker ever since you first saw StarWars when you actually were a little kid. Right?

(I'm sure you'd love midichlorians if you could go down to the local store, have some CLONED, and get a fresh transfusion so you could levitate your Jedi Starfighter....)

Now I would guess that either Luke or Obi-Wan is your favorite SW character, without making just a random shot in the dark.

That's alright: Obi-Wan is going to be my favorite Episode 2 character I think. Possibly Anakin. Obi-Wan is also a strong interest of mine in all the Classic films - a large part due to his appearances in the prequels.

Meanwhile, something you could guess about me: Qui-Gon Jinn was my favorite character in Episode 1. (you just thought to yourself, "it figures...." *sigh*)

That can bias some of our opinions, and I do think it does in my case, as I liked Qui-Gon. Did you not like him? (independent of the Classic Trilogy's preconceptions you had)

Are you Obi-Wan's biggest fan? (I love his character too. I'm not 'picking on you for it,' that would be a stupid thing to do - especially when we could all gang up on people who like Lobot as their favorite character ;) )

But anyway, it can color people's opinions too. If they didn't like something or someone, they can really rationalize something to death - like this thread demonstrates.




Actually, no, Obi Wan isn't my favorite. Never has been. And I don't really have it out for Qui Gon either in that sense. (not that it matters too much for the purposes of this discussion, but I've always been partial to Vader...only because of his kickass mask, and to Biker Scouts for the same reason. The production design on this saga is really what sets it apart from everything else out there.)

You're right, I do have considerable experience critiquing, mostly screenplays. What that means is that (I believe anyway) that I'm able to look at a story without bias toward one character or another unlike others here, apparently. I have to do it that way or else I could wind up making excuses for somebody's stupid decisions (in the story) just because I side with them somehow. When evaluating any script, especially one that hasn't been made yet (but may have significant dollar signs attached to it in the future), it is extremely important that any red flags be addressed and that holes be filled.

I carry with me no like nor dislike toward any character in the saga as I look at the facts as laid out by the screenplays, the finished films, and extraneous articles and interviews given by those involved. Like I've said before, I can see how the relevant material could be interpreted in a twisted way to make everything seem to flow across the chapters, but the way it stands now without any kind of wiggling around, Ep I material conflicts with the established continuity of the Original Trilogy. I understand how some people enjoy the saga so much that they are willing to overlook this stuff, and to a certain extent, I'd like to as well. But as when I see a problem in real life I cry foul, I did so with this story too. If the discrepencies weren't there, it would never have been brought up by so many others as well as me.

It's funny, once I've backed the argument up against a wall that the "evaluation" turns to the "reviewer" (me) because there is no way to successfully argue out of the point itself.

And, yeah, there is a slight emphasis on "the" in ESB, but whether you believe it or not, it is the word that is important and significant, and that's what makes my argument true.:)

Tycho
04-16-2002, 03:05 PM
Sith Droid: if he's training a padawan, Obi-Wan is, however unqualified for it, a Jedi Master. - certainly not anywhere around the ranks of Ki-Adi Mundi or anything.

Obi-Wan had only just been Knighted. Not only that, he skipped his "Trials" because they gave him the title since he faced down a Sith Lord, and lost his Master in what would probably have been the last month or so of his training under Qui-Gon anyway.

I think they are just called Masters, when they actually are Knights training padawans. The title being appropriate for the young learner to call their teacher. However, they are only truly a Master when they train a padawan through Knighthood.

I am wondering when a Knight is old enough to take on an apprentice, because it seems like a Jedi could use help on his or her mission, and a padawan is very useful for teamwork. Or do new Knights work together for a while, normally?

(without padawans)

mark2d2
04-16-2002, 03:09 PM
Laugh out Loud! Tycho, I was about to make the same point but then I read your "script." It's so very true --- Luke was on the verge of death so this wasn't the best time for a history lesson.

Stillakid --- Your ferver on this issue knows no end. Frankly, I don't get it. There is far too much more IMPORTANT stuff wrong with TPM --- the fact that much of it is . . . well . . . BORING!!! I just don't see why you are so obsessed with splitting the hairs on this issue. As a writer myself, I really don't see that this is a continuity problem. That said, I will jump into the fray and argue the point.

Remember, as Obiwan himself once said "So, you see, what I said was true from a certain point of view."

At this point in ESB, Obiwan was getting desperate. He had to have Luke trained and there was only one Jedi Master left. Perhaps he was fudging the truth simply to instill confidence in the boy. Luke clearly looked up to Obiwan and Ben knew that he'd jump at the chance to follow in his footsteps. All of this fits in very well with the quote I posted above.

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 03:14 PM
Slow modem blues......

Anyway, Wolfwood's "the" argument makes much more sense to me than yours, stillakid. Sorry. You call it rationalizing, I call it enjoying the movie and getting on with life.

Geez, I know critiquing stuff might be your job; but why take it out on us?:p:D

stillakid
04-16-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
Perhaps he was


This part of your post is what I'm getting at. I call em like I see em. Everyone else insists on using that type of phrase to make excuses for it.

BB is right, though. It is tiresome to go round after round. Some of you don't want to see problems so you never ever will. In the end, it doesn't matter, but I only brought it up...someone else asked me to explain, so I did. :) If you really didn't want to know, then why ask?

With a little nip and tuck here and there, TPM could have been an awesome movie. AOTC can only be better.

mark2d2
04-16-2002, 03:55 PM
I still say that you are looking at things in ways to much Black and White. Life and fortunately "good" films are not always quite that simple. And to place so much emphasis on the way Alec Guiness said the word "The" is simply bordering on the absurd since I doubt very much thought went into it at all. Alec shot all of his ESB scenes on one single day over a six and a half hour period. Coupled with the fact that Lucas is notorious for "Not" directing his actors.

Wolfwood's Arguement still makes much more sense to me and many others. And I, for one, am definitely NOT afraid to find fault with Lucas and his films. I just can't bring myself to see certain problems that, frankly, just aren't there. There is simply too much else for me to pick on. Episode I was clearly a field day for those who think that the Star Wars films are massively overhyped and overated. The film just simply didn't deliver ---- to me, and apparently many others ---- on so many levels.

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 03:59 PM
Alright then, I think this discussion has found it's end. Let's move on...nothing to see here.... move along, move along.

Seriously though, some good points were brought up, but overall nobody's opinions changed and we're all just as stubborn as we were when the discussion started. I think its time we move on though.

SithDroid
04-16-2002, 04:07 PM
Can I get an AMEN!!!!!

stillakid
04-16-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
Alright then, I think this discussion has found it's end. Let's move on...nothing to see here.... move along, move along.


(A cease fire is declared by the opposition after no suitable argument can be found against the definite article "the". The smoke clears...)

What do you think, you're some kind of Jedi waving your hand around like that? :)


So, what was the topic of this thread anyway?:eek:


Oh, fears about Ep II. Not really too much for me. I'm happy that GL had help writing this one, and his track record for making a good movie after getting help writing is pretty decent. The production design looks up to par as usual, though I haven't seen enough of the CG characters yet to tell how 2D they appear. I like the idea of the little floaty thing that Yoda uses to keep up with the big people in his life. That's cute. I hope he downplays the Midi's, but you all know that already. ;) I'm not to excited about the Fett Family (when is the variety show on CBS?) being explored in the prequels as a concept, but maybe it will work as a story element. Like I said, it can't possibly be worse than Ep I, so I look forward to being entertained.

mark2d2
04-16-2002, 04:23 PM
I will not move on! I've come before you to resolve this attack on our Obiwan now! I was not elected to watch my convictions suffer and die while you discuss this assault in a committee. If this body is not capable of action, I suggest new leadership is needed. I move for a vote of "no confidence" against Sith Lord Stillakid.

stillakid
04-16-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
I will not move on! I've come before you to resolve this attack on our Obiwan now! I was not elected to watch my convictions suffer and die while you discuss this assault in a committee. If this body is not capable of action, I suggest new leadership is needed. I move for a vote of "no confidence" against Sith Lord Stillakid.


LOL!

Quick, where are my bureaucrats?

Who needs em. I'm going to form a clone army and take you all down! Did we give up when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?....Hell no! Who's with me? AAhhhhhhhhh........

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 04:31 PM
Um, mark2d2, you're still here? Everybody already went home.:D:D:D

stillakid
04-16-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Um, mark2d2, you're still here? Everybody already went home.:D:D:D

I noticed that too. You're the only one that seems to admit that there might be a problem with TPM, but proclaimed that you enjoy it anyway. Everyone else scattered and ran when faced with defeat, unable to admit that perhaps they might be wrong. I was just getting warmed up! :rolleyes:

But in the end, you're right, it doesn't matter one way or another as long as you can find enjoyment in it somewhere. That's what these things are for.:)

RooJay
04-16-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
And, yeah, there is a slight emphasis on "the" in ESB, but whether you believe it or not, it is the word that is important and significant, and that's what makes my argument true.:)

Wolfwood, you LIED to us! According to this, Mr. Kovik WAS so your only Economics Professor!:mad: ;)

JK!

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 04:40 PM
Sweet lord.... I thought I ended this just a few minutes ago? What are all you people still doing here? Go on, get! Scram!

(repeatedly smacks fellow lollygaggers with broom)

You know what, I'm going to go back inside, and get a shovel!

RooJay
04-16-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


I noticed that too. You're the only one that seems to admit that there might be a problem with TPM, but proclaimed that you enjoy it anyway. Everyone else scattered and ran when faced with defeat, unable to admit that perhaps they might be wrong. I was just getting warmed up! :rolleyes:

But in the end, you're right, it doesn't matter one way or another as long as you can find enjoyment in it somewhere. That's what these things are for.:)

Stillakid, I resent the assumption that I have not admitted there was a problem with TPM! I don't feel you've been listening to me at all. I have stated in several posts that there are indeed LOTS of flaws in this movie (and I might add that none of them hindered my ability to enjoy it), but the flaws DO NOT make the PT crontradictory in ANY way to the OT. This is what I have been debating with you; not that you are wrong and TPM is a great film! Far from it. Though, many of us still find it enjoyable, and accept it for what it is.
I also resent the assumption that, since you have reviewed however many scripts, somehow makes you the authority on what makes a good film, or that it makes you somehow more informed than the rest of us. We all review scripts...every time we watch a movie.

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 04:46 PM
HERE COMES THE SHOVEL!!!!!:crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

mark2d2
04-16-2002, 04:48 PM
Actually Stillakid, you're wrong here are you are about a great many things. (wink!wink! I couldn't get the blasted icon to appear here.)

Sadly, I must confess that ultimately I DID NOT enjoy Episode I. While there were parts I liked --- overall as I watched the film for the first time on that all important midnight so long ago, I was overcome with this absolutely horrible rising, Rising sense of dread. OMIGOD! I DO NOT LIKE THIS STARWARS FILM MUCH AT ALL. WHAT THE F-----? IT SUCKS! (In fact, I started doing a rewrite in my head from the very first moment the Nemoidians spoke.) So much of the film was just awful and forced. Other than the introduction to R2 (which was pretty dang cheesy --- but hey, I'm a fan) and the Senate stuff (I loved Amidala and her creepy accent while Padme was just flat out awful. Especially in the now notorious "Are you and Angel?" scene.)

Anyway, all of these things plague my mind with considerable doubt about Episode II. (The Amidala "persona" is no longer even around I guess and we're stuck with Padme the whole time!?!) But thank god for the fact I never have to see that ridiculous skinless Threepio ever again. I just hope Anakin doesn't make R5D4 this time around. CGI for supposedly living things sucks!

SithDroid
04-16-2002, 04:54 PM
Get em Wolfwood!!!

stillakid
04-16-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by RooJay


Stillakid, I resent the assumption that I have not admitted there was a problem with TPM! I don't feel you've been listening to me at all. I have stated in several posts that there are indeed LOTS of flaws in this movie (and I might add that none of them hindered my ability to enjoy it), but the flaws DO NOT make the PT crontradictory in ANY way to the OT. This is what I have been debating with you; not that you are wrong and TPM is a great film! Far from it. Though, many of us still find it enjoyable, and accept it for what it is.
I also resent the assumption that, since you have reviewed however many scripts, somehow makes you the authority on what makes a good film, or that it makes you somehow more informed than the rest of us. We all review scripts...every time we watch a movie.

I apologize for the blanket assumptions as it was not my intention to paint everyone in that light.

Tycho
04-16-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Did we give up when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?....Hell no! Who's with me? AAhhhhhhhhh........

Aaaahhhh! Is right. The JAPANESE bombed Peal Harbor!

Did sarcasm slip over my head, or did everyone just miss that.

"You did find out you were wrong...about a great many things!"

stillakid
04-16-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Tycho


Aaaahhhh! Is right. The JAPANESE bombed Peal Harbor!

Did sarcasm slip over my head, or did everyone just miss that.

"You did find out you were wrong...about a great many things!"

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Studio/2487/belushisounds.html

look for harbor.wav

mark2d2
04-16-2002, 06:08 PM
Tycho, he's quoting Animal House --- I think.
It's a joke. John Belushi is trying to psyche
everyone up and his ignorance is a send up
of "inspirational" speeches everywhere.

stillakid
04-16-2002, 06:16 PM
There seems to be a temporary problem with the site that I linked to above. I guess you have to keep trying until the provider lets people in again.

And, yes, mark2d2, that's exactly right. I was trying to be funny, but it kinda loses it a little when you have to explain it.:(

RooJay
04-16-2002, 07:04 PM
Hey Stillakid, I just thought of another bit of evidence that you can use to support your belief that there are contradictions in the Saga. Of course, this casts a shadow of doubt on most peoples favorite film in the story. In ESB, Darth Vader mistakenly tells Luke that he is his father!

B-b-b-b-but, I thought Obi Wan said Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father?! How can this be?! Obi Wan would never lie and withhold facts from Luke! He needs all the information and training he can get if he's gonna take down the Empire! Plus, there's no way the galaxy's last hope can be the son of it's most powerful and feared oppressor!
So you see, by your line of resoning even the films of the OT can contradict each other. I remember having this discussion with my brother way back in 1980. I thought, right up until I saw the end of ROTJ that this would be revealed as a trick used to psyche Luke out, but whatta ya know? IT WORKED! It only seemd like a contradiction and a lie because my optimistic little mind refused to ever believe that such a thing could turn out to be true. I think most (if not all) Star Wars fans have come to accept the fact that Obi Wan twisted the truth, and withheld facts just a bit when dealing with Luke. I HATED the idea of Vader being Luke's father at the time, but I eventually came to my senses and learned to accept the facts.
I'd also like to add that, along with Qui-Gon Jinn and midichlorians, Lucas hadn't even thought of making Vader Luke's father when he made the first Star Wars either! Even after he did, he still had yet to concoct the idea that Leia was Luke's sister. HELL, he even kissed her a couple times leading up to the discovery! Lucas has stated this several times, in several sources. Nobody talks badly about how Uncle George decided to change the story in these instances!

By the way...I really don't think ESB contradicts ANH; just using it as an example to illustrate my point. ESB ROCKS!

Wolfwood319
04-16-2002, 07:19 PM
Enough of this! This bickering is pointless. This could go on for some time, nothing gets solved.

Get on with your lives, citizens.

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 07:22 PM
Well, to gain a fresh point of view as to why I still enjoy watching this film, I decided to watch TPM again in the two hour gap I've been gone. Unfortunately, that stupid, self-congratulatory ILM documentary put me to sleep right off (I was watching the Widescreen VHS version); but I did wake up just in time to see Qui-Gonn get skewered.:) While I was watching the celebration scene though, I realized what it is I like so much about this film. It's that sugary-sweet happy feeling the movie always gives me when I watch it. I don't get it from any other movie; but TPM is just so gosh-darned cheerful that I can't help but love it.

So there it is that's my reason. Flaws, inconsistencies, stilted dialogue, wooden acting aside; this is a great movie.

Fortunately, Ep2 will be a little darker, cuz any more syrup and I think my teeth will fall out.:D

Having said that, I feel that it is time to say:

THREAD CLOSED










........ahem....


THREAD CLOSED





















........AARRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHH!!! CLOSE!!!! DAMN YOU CLOSE!!! (ahhhh, I give up...)

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
How can this be?! Obi Wan would never lie and withhold facts from Luke!

It's sad really, stillakid is not the first to be hurt by Obi-Wan's lies and you can bet he won't be the last.

DAMN YOU, OBI-WAN!!! WHY?!?!? WHHYYYYYYYYY?!?!??!??!?!?!?!?

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

stillakid
04-16-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
Hey Stillakid, I just thought of another bit of evidence that you can use to support your belief that there are contradictions in the Saga. Of course, this casts a shadow of doubt on most peoples favorite film in the story. In ESB, Darth Vader mistakenly tells Luke that he is his father!

B-b-b-b-but, I thought Obi Wan said Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father?! How can this be?! Obi Wan would never lie and withhold facts from Luke! He needs all the information and training he can get if he's gonna take down the Empire! Plus, there's no way the galaxy's last hope can be the son of it's most powerful and feared oppressor!
So you see, by your line of resoning even the films of the OT can contradict each other. I remember having this discussion with my brother way back in 1980. I thought, right up until I saw the end of ROTJ that this would be revealed as a trick used to psyche Luke out, but whatta ya know? IT WORKED! It only seemd like a contradiction and a lie because my optimistic little mind refused to ever believe that such a thing could turn out to be true. I think most (if not all) Star Wars fans have come to accept the fact that Obi Wan twisted the truth, and withheld facts just a bit when dealing with Luke. I HATED the idea of Vader being Luke's father at the time, but I eventually came to my senses and learned to accept the facts.
I'd also like to add that, along with Qui-Gon Jinn and midichlorians, Lucas hadn't even thought of making Vader Luke's father when he made the first Star Wars either! Even after he did, he still had yet to concoct the idea that Leia was Luke's sister. HELL, he even kissed her a couple times leading up to the discovery! Lucas has stated this several times, in several sources. Nobody talks badly about how Uncle George decided to change the story in these instances!

By the way...I really don't think ESB contradicts ANH; just using it as an example to illustrate my point. ESB ROCKS!

Your cheerful sarcasm is noted and enjoyed by many, I'm sure. But if you'd like to discuss the above issues seriously, I'm certainly up to it. Clearly, I've made no allusions that Obi Wan wasn't up front with Luke about the family history, but if you take the time to actually read many of the previous posts in this thread and many of the others concerning the same topic, you'll find that your sarcasm makes you look silly as we've already covered these bases previously. But I suppose that might have been your intent. :)

Tycho
04-17-2002, 12:50 AM
There's no reason to close the thread. I can do it if that's what BigBarada is suggesting, but I want you guys to develop the willpower to stop beating a dead horse.

Think about the valuable lessons you've learned so far:

everything from family planning to who bombed Pearl Harbor!

Now it's time for YOU to learn 'moderation.' If you can....

(*Tycho laughs all the way off this thread until the next time his e-mail tells him one of you knuckle-heads is making him read the next argument!* SIGH *)

bigbarada
04-17-2002, 01:40 AM
Y'know I'm watching ANH right now and I've made one observation. Knowing what I know about the prequels, Obi-Wan is one of the most interesting characters in the film. When he sees Artoo for the first time after saving Luke, he gives the droid a long hard look. As if he was thinking to himself, "I've seen this droid before." Revisionist yet cool.

I used to never even consider Obi-Wan anything more than a storytelling device to fill Luke in on the plotline. But now, with the prequels, he has become as much of a real person as any movie character can be.

2-1B
04-17-2002, 02:03 AM
I'm the same way, B. I did that a lot after TPM was released, and I think ANH will be even greater fun once 2 and 3 are released.

Another example, Vader in the trench. I just couldn't help but think of lil Ani in his pod. :D

Rogue II
04-18-2002, 07:05 AM
Last night on ET, they showed some more "new clips" of AOTC. I am starting to get more and more concerned as I see these new clips. I get the feeling that GL was trying to insert a great deal of comedy thru the film. It seems like that all of Anakin's and Obi wan's lines contain a certain amount of wit. The only thing missing was laugh track from your average sitcom.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I just being paranoid?

Wolfwood319
04-18-2002, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Rogue II
Last night on ET, they showed some more "new clips" of AOTC. I am starting to get more and more concerned as I see these new clips. I get the feeling that GL was trying to insert a great deal of comedy thru the film. It seems like that all of Anakin's and Obi wan's lines contain a certain amount of wit. The only thing missing was laugh track from your average sitcom.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I just being paranoid?

What has that got to do with the discussion at hand.....oh, waitaminnute...nevermind...;)

I noticed this on the clone wars trailer, that there seems to be a lot of banter between them. Like "I forgot you hate flying," and "I hate it when he does that." I'm not so much worried, as I am hopeful that its as good in the long run as much as a lot of Han's dialogue was in the OT.

Rogue II
04-18-2002, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
[B]

What has that got to do with the discussion at hand.....oh, waitaminnute...nevermind...;)


Well, maybe I should have started of with that old Monty Python line:

"And now for something completely different."

:cry: All I wanted was someone to comfort me and tell me ATOC will be better than TPM. TPM was okay, but didn't live up to my expectations. And all of the arguing about who trained who and good ol' George didn't mention this in ANH but did in TMP blablabla:cry:

Why can't we all just get along? I've narrowed it down to 2 sources, but I'm not sure which to blame. It could be Hasbro or George Lucas or both.

If Hasbro made better figures, provided better distribution, and didn't create hard to find exclusives we would all be much happier people and less likely to gripe about every nit-picky thing.

If Good Old George had better continuity between films and eliminated some inconsistencies in the SE versions, we would also be happier. He is also the man responsible for not releasing the OT on DVD.

Who gets the blame?

stillakid
04-18-2002, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Rogue II

Who gets the blame?


Um, I do, apparently. :rolleyes: Blame the messenger, always a good technique.;)

scruffziller
04-18-2002, 07:29 PM
I think this film will be a major improvement on the last movie. I think Lucas has learned from his mistakes on the first one and will make us proud on this. I just can't wait til EPSIII!!!!!!!!!!!