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View Full Version : What the F*** is with the Shockwave Ring?



stillakid
09-10-2006, 05:15 PM
Alderaan and the Death Star explode outward in all directions. I'm not a scientist by any stretch so these questions may be completely stupid.

But, in the case of Alderaan, how could a laser blast (or gas enveloped in a photon envelope :rolleyes: ) first A) explode a planet and B) cause the ball of rock to explode outward in all directions? Exactly what would an energy beam like that do to a planet to cause it to explode.

In the case of the Death Star, it makes more sense I guess because in both cases, the kill shot came from the core causing an explosion outward in all directions.

That being the case for the planet and the station, what's with the shockwave ring that resembles a flat disk? If there was a shockwave at all, why wouldn't it too expand outward in all directions equally? So instead of a disk like expansion, wouldn't it by more like a growing sphere leaving the exploding ball?

Kidhuman
09-10-2006, 05:43 PM
It might have heated the planets core to the point of explosion&

Jayspawn
09-10-2006, 06:22 PM
The shockwave rings rule!

El Chuxter
09-10-2006, 07:33 PM
The shockwave was a very poorly advised SE change. It looks stupid. More than stupid--it looks like a flornbesque pice of carp.

2-1B
09-10-2006, 08:00 PM
how could a laser blast...explode a planet

exactly, since it can't they might as well have fun and dress up the action while they're at it. lol

JimJamBonds
09-10-2006, 11:56 PM
The shockwave rings rule!

Awesome every exploding planet should have one!

Darth Jax
09-11-2006, 12:12 AM
don't the rings go in different directions one being vertical and one horizontal? considering i just watched the OT SE dvd's yesterday you'd think i'd remember.

Blue2th
09-11-2006, 01:20 AM
I thought the shockwave ring eminated from the Deathstar trench. That being it's weakest point where most of the energy would come from in the explosion. It kinda reminded me of the shockwave the Excelsior ran into in Star Trek The Undiscovered Country.:yes:

plasticfetish
09-11-2006, 02:55 AM
I always order shockwave rings with my Whopper.

stillakid
09-11-2006, 08:47 AM
I thought the shockwave ring eminated from the Deathstar trench. That being it's weakest point where most of the energy would come from in the explosion. It kinda reminded me of the shockwave the Excelsior ran into in Star Trek The Undiscovered Country.:yes:

So who dug the trench on Alderaan?

jeddah
09-11-2006, 12:09 PM
No not a dumb question at all, but I think GL used artistic license inasmuch as using a supernova model for his exploding planet and DS.

The way I understand it, in supernovae, ejecta is thrown in all directions, but it is the shock wave's interaction with the elements in the ejecta that causes the ring, not the ejecta itself - much in the way that the solar wind interracts with our atmosphere to create the Aurora Borealis/Australis.

The thing is (apart from using a supernova model) there is annihilation of the star and the ejecta comprises of material in basic elemental form whereas we see clumps of planet and DS. The "solar wind" (not correct term, but you get the idea) of the shock wave creates takes on a different colour or hue depending on the elements which are now spread in bands according to density or mass (don't ask me) etc so the band should vary in colour - which it doesn't really do much in SW. Besides this, and from memory, the ejecta in SW comes after (or inside) the shock wave both Alders and DS explode so it's arse-about-face.

As to why the shockwave is not globular, I think this is to do with magnetism; the planet and DS have poles and as every wave has a positive and negative phase (as in peaks and troughs) it will be affected by the magnetic field of the star.

I found this http://www.aavso.org/images/sn1987a.mpg animation movie which shows a supernova. I don't think we'd've taken GL seriously if he'd opted for this approach!

Now, I should have prefaced the above with the fact that all errors are mine and my memory, at 34, is not what it was :D

jeddah

stillakid
09-11-2006, 12:23 PM
No not a dumb question at all, but I think GL used artistic license inasmuch as using a supernova model for his exploding planet and DS.

The way I understand it, in supernovae, ejecta is thrown in all directions, but it is the shock wave's interaction with the elements in the ejecta that causes the ring, not the ejecta itself - much in the way that the solar wind interracts with our atmosphere to create the Aurora Borealis/Australis.

The thing is (apart from using a supernova model) there is annihilation of the star and the ejecta comprises of material in basic elemental form whereas we see clumps of planet and DS. The "solar wind" (not correct term, but you get the idea) of the shock wave creates takes on a different colour or hue depending on the elements which are now spread in bands according to density or mass (don't ask me) etc so the band should vary in colour - which it doesn't really do much in SW. Besides this, and from memory, the ejecta in SW comes after (or inside) the shock wave both Alders and DS explode so it's arse-about-face.

As to why the shockwave is not globular, I think this is to do with magnetism; the planet and DS have poles and as every wave has a positive and negative phase (as in peaks and troughs) it will be affected by the magnetic field of the star.

I found this http://www.aavso.org/images/sn1987a.mpg animation movie which shows a supernova. I don't think we'd've taken GL seriously if he'd opted for this approach!

Very interesting and cool. Thanks for finding that. :) I personally like the "real" version of what happens to what GL chose. It also occurred to me that GL could have used it as a door to an educational experience which he claims (or used to claim anyway with Lucas Learning) to be an advocate of. Had I seen anything that resembled that animation in Star Wars, I definitely first would have said, "Cool!" followed by "is that what would really happen?" Then I'd likely go look it up right away. Instead, GL went with a simplier "cool effect" that may or may not have any basis in reality at all. It certainly didn't inspire legions of fans and children to find out more about supernovas.



Now, I should have prefaced the above with the fact that all errors are mine and my memory, at 34, is not what it was :D

jeddah
Well, obviously, because you're really only 33. :D

Blue2th
09-11-2006, 02:42 PM
So who dug the trench on Alderaan?

That was the eequater. You know that thang on the map of a globe?:cross-eye

darthvyn
09-12-2006, 02:22 PM
That was the eequater. You know that thang on the map of a globe?:cross-eye

yeah, everyone knows that the glue they use to hold the equator line onto the globe is highly combusible... given that much energy, it's easy to surmise that it was the super-heating of that thin strip of color that caused the shockwave rings.:D

stillakid
09-12-2006, 04:21 PM
yeah, everyone knows that the glue they use to hold the equator line onto the globe is highly combusible... given that much energy, it's easy to surmise that it was the super-heating of that thin strip of color that caused the shockwave rings.:D

Wouldn't the latitude and longitude lines explode too?

JediTricks
09-12-2006, 04:54 PM
The stupid Praxis ring, they never should have used that, it was great in Star Trek 6 from '91, then already "been there done that" in Stargate in '94, so naturally Lucas wanted to jump on the bandwagon 6 years later.

The Death Star ring can also make a little sense since the equatoral trench is apparently where the DS's movement is derived. Alderaan though enjoys no such thing, and while Jeddah's magnetic pole argument feels like a close shave, really the effect's addition is just not cutting it.

Blue2th
09-12-2006, 07:25 PM
The stupid Praxis ring, they never should have used that, it was great in Star Trek 6 from '91, then already "been there done that" in Stargate in '94, so naturally Lucas wanted to jump on the bandwagon 6 years later.

Yeah, funny how Lucas didn't jump on the Slow-mo panning camera bandwagon, that won the Matrix the Oscar for best special effects, instead of the Phantom Menace.

JediTricks
09-13-2006, 08:53 PM
"Thank you, ladies and gentlemen of the press, and welcome to this Lucasfilm press conference, we have a very exciting announcement to make, so if you'll all please take your seats we can begin. I'm Rick McCallum and I am producer on this upcoming project. Here in the year 2007, George Lucas - genius filmmaker, entrepreneur, male supermodel, and mighty Zeus - has revolutionized cinema once again and will be introducing the concept of a a new dimension in movies today, now audiences can go beyond 3-D and into... the forth dimension, the dimension of time. Yes, a director using Lucas' patented process can go into a scene, slow it down, move the camera about the environment and give exciting new vantages to be experienced, this revolutionary process is dubbed "blaster-time" and will be added to all six of the Star Wars films as a proof of concept - now when the Millennium Falcon fires at Darth Vader's TIE Fighter, the audience will experience through blaster-time the vantages of Han Solo in the cockpit of the Falcon, then swing the camera around in that same moment to show the TIE Fighter pilot catching a glimpse of the lasers just before they hit their mark. It's going to be f***in' awesome! Now I'll take a few carefully-prepared questions on our revolutionary "blaster-time" process which has never been seen before..."

darthvyn
09-14-2006, 12:53 PM
Wouldn't the latitude and longitude lines explode too?

they just got blown apart. they're blue. they don't combust. but the equator, THAT'S red, and we all know red means flammible. perhaps INflammable, even. or bad. or stop. or beef, if it's a bouillon cube.

JEDIpartner
09-14-2006, 02:13 PM
I think it looks groovy. :)

darthvyn
09-14-2006, 03:36 PM
no, gravy is brown, not red.

2-1B
09-14-2006, 07:43 PM
or Clear, in the case of SNL's Crystal Gravy.

Blue2th
09-14-2006, 09:08 PM
The centrifugal force of a sphere spinning would cause the most pressure on the equator. Just like being on a merry-go-round, if you sit in the center or axis you don't feel the G's as much as sitting on the edge. So a planet's weakest point because of the pressure would come apart at it's equators or outermost edge, and if exploded from the inside would have it's shockwave ring come out at the planet's equator. Though I don't know if the Deathstar Lazer penetrates to the planet's core and explodes Alderan from the inside out.:cross-eye

dr_evazan22
09-15-2006, 10:46 AM
The shockwave rings rule!

I imagined that Lucas was inspired by video of atomic blasts, where you can see the shockwave moving out. Cool stuff, but we can only see where the force - er - the Force of the explosion still has enough energy to move matter (meaning we don't see it move thru the air, since the for- dammit! - Force is invisible).

Always thought Jango's so called seismic charges were cool visually, but the blast seemed too knife edged / sharp.

bobafrett
09-15-2006, 02:32 PM
I remember (barely) them talking about the effect they used for the Alderan explosion (or maybe it was the Death Star), and they used "vermiculite". Thank you for reading my senseless babble.

JediTricks
09-15-2006, 03:52 PM
Atomic blasts? Don't they follow the ground? In space that would be a spherical shockwave.

JimJamBonds
09-16-2006, 11:49 AM
I personally like the "real" version of what happens to what GL chose. It also occurred to me that GL could have used it as a door to an educational experience which he claims (or used to claim anyway with Lucas Learning) to be an advocate of. Had I seen anything that resembled that animation in Star Wars, I definitely first would have said, "Cool!" followed by "is that what would really happen?" Then I'd likely go look it up right away. Instead, GL went with a simplier "cool effect" that may or may not have any basis in reality at all. It certainly didn't inspire legions of fans and children to find out more about supernovas.

Dooker's solar sailer is based on a theory that solar winds could be used to propel a ship in space.

Blue2th
09-16-2006, 12:04 PM
Though we have never seen a planet explode in real life, there is probably some truth to Lucas' animation. Galaxies, Super Novas, etc. form in a eliptical disk shape, with swirling curcular pattern from spinning. They all began with some sort of explosion. If you turn them on their side, you see they are flat for the most part. Give or take a few wierd shaped ones.

JimJamBonds
09-16-2006, 12:14 PM
There is also a shockwave ring (of sorts) in the graphic novel.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-16-2006, 04:27 PM
Realistic or not, it's a whole hell of a lot better than the explosion in the original version. Sheesh what a piece of crap that is. It looks like Alderaan exploded twice.

JediTricks
09-16-2006, 04:59 PM
Dooker's solar sailer is based on a theory that solar winds could be used to propel a ship in space.The design is based on a solar sailer look, but Dooku's ship actually isn't supposed to run on solar winds or ions or anything, as the official site puts it (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/solarsailer/?id=eu):

The term solar sail is a misnomer, since Count Dooku's interstellar sloop uses an as-yet unknown brand of energetic propulsion far more exotic than stellar radiation. Dooku acquired the delicate and ancient sail from mysterious Gree artisans, who developed a technology that harnesses supralight emissions for interstellar travel.

JimJamBonds
09-16-2006, 11:07 PM
The design is based on a solar sailer look, but Dooku's ship actually isn't supposed to run on solar winds or ions or anything, as the official site puts it (http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/solarsailer/?id=eu):
The term solar sail is a misnomer, since Count Dooku's interstellar sloop uses an as-yet unknown brand of energetic propulsion far more exotic than stellar radiation. Dooku acquired the delicate and ancient sail from mysterious Gree artisans, who developed a technology that harnesses supralight emissions for interstellar travel. In the AOTC commentary John Knoll says its photon pressure that drives the sail just like a ship on the ocean with the wind.

2-1B
09-16-2006, 11:54 PM
photons schmotons, it sounds like junk science to me.

dr_evazan22
09-17-2006, 02:22 AM
Dooker's solar sailer is based on a theory that solar winds could be used to propel a ship in space.

From Popular Science...


David Higginbotham

Solar Sailing
Testing a sail that turns sunlight into rocket fuel
In a test chamber at NASA Glenn Research Centerís Plum Brook Station in Sandusky, Ohio, engineers show off a 20-by-20 meter solar sail that automatically unfurls when its four support tubes are inflated. Built by L'Garde, Inc., of Tustin, California, the sail is made of Mylar less than one tenth the thickness of a trash bag. Itís designed to deflect photons from sunlight to propel a spacecraft forward with little fuel. A larger version of the sail is a candidate for NASA's Space Technology 9, a mission for experimental technologies that could fly in the next five years.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/dr_evazan22/mp_july06_3.jpg

JEDIpartner
09-17-2006, 02:57 AM
Is this what you do during the middle of the night, Ari? ;) Hope you are doing well, buddy!

JediTricks
09-17-2006, 04:38 AM
[/indent]In the AOTC commentary John Knoll says its photon pressure that drives the sail just like a ship on the ocean with the wind.
Those would be faster-than-the-speed-of-light photons? :p ("ftl photons" is a funny idea since photons are by their very nature limited to the speed of light as they are what makes up light.)

Solar sailers start very slow and build up speed over great lengths of time, not the most effective means of conveyence in the go-go Star Wars universe.

dr_evazan22
09-17-2006, 01:12 PM
...
Solar sailers start very slow and build up speed over great lengths of time, not the most effective means of conveyence in the go-go Star Wars universe.

0 - 60 in about as many years?

JimJamBonds
09-18-2006, 09:39 AM
Solar sailers start very slow and build up speed over great lengths of time, not the most effective means of conveyence in the go-go Star Wars universe.

It was fast enough for Dookers to get out of Dodge so it can't be too slow.

JediTricks
09-18-2006, 04:48 PM
It was fast enough for Dookers to get out of Dodge so it can't be too slow.
That's proof it's not a true solar sailer (it didn't help that it was flying without the sails at that point).

JimJamBonds
09-19-2006, 09:07 AM
That's proof it's not a true solar sailer (it didn't help that it was flying without the sails at that point).

Further evidence includes the fact that we are talking about something in a sci fi movie.

JediTricks
09-19-2006, 04:38 PM
That's a poor excuse IMO, there's an in-universe set of rules even in fiction just as in real life, even when they're fantasy rules.

Jargo
09-19-2006, 09:14 PM
Realistic or not, it's a whole hell of a lot better than the explosion in the original version. Sheesh what a piece of crap that is. It looks like Alderaan exploded twice.
Perhaps it would if that energy beam first burned through the planet crust causing a sort of volcanic explosion thing and then as the beam penetrated further into the core and superheated that it might then explode big time.

Strangely the best exploding planet sequence I've seen in terms of feeling more real is the one in that dreadful Lost in space movie. While being slower and taking longer for the purpose of having the heroes escape through the exploding core it did have a certain organic feel about it. and considering that Alderaan is such an important target in ANH I would have gone down the slower more dramatic destruction route than the big bang and flashy light show route. But then i want to see the people of Alderaan look up and see the beam coming and then have the ground literally erupt around them. Without seeing how it really affects Alderaanians i don't feel any empathy for the planet or the death of countless millions. It feels more like an afterthought. "mm yeah blown up planet, whatever. let's get this movie moving to the fun parts"

stillakid
09-19-2006, 10:03 PM
Without seeing how it really affects Alderaanians i don't feel any empathy for the planet or the death of countless millions. It feels more like an afterthought. "mm yeah blown up planet, whatever. let's get this movie moving to the fun parts"

You're not supposed to be thinking a lot about the Alderaanians at that point. All the attention is centered on LEIA and what HER feelings and reaction are. THROUGH her, we know that it is a terrible event. Showing what's going on down on the ground would only dilute the focus of that scene, which is how Leia is affected and how the story will unfold because of what just happened.

We get further information about the "feelings" of the event immediately afterward with Old Ben. The point of that is to illustrate A) the power of the Force in general and B) Ben's connection to it.

So the point of the Alderaan destruction isn't to have the audience necessarily feel any sympathy for the people who die. That event has other story points that it is conveying.

A large part of movie-making is deciding what NOT to show in order to guide the audience around the story in the way that the writer intends. Every "event" on screen could be shown from a million angles and points of view from everyone in the room, but the movie specifically chooses which to show and which to avoid, when to enter a scene and when to cut out. The Sixth Sense is an excellent example given that each scene had to be shown from very specific points of view, entered into at a precise moment, and cut away from at a precise moment or the "gag" wouldn't have worked.

JimJamBonds
09-20-2006, 12:16 AM
That's a poor excuse IMO, there's an in-universe set of rules even in fiction just as in real life, even when they're fantasy rules.

We don't see the sail deployed 'till Dooku is in outerspace so he was able to get away up to that point using some sort of standard engine on his ship. We see zero ships/people/clones/anything chase after Dooku once he runs from the fight so once he reached space the sail was plenty fast for him to get out of there.

On a different note John Knoll does make a comment on the size of the sail being wrong in the commentary.

Blue2th
09-20-2006, 01:37 AM
I was playing flippit on the TV the other night. Caught the last part of Armageddon. Yeah they used a shockwave ring too, and two bowl shaped rings also. :cross-eye

stillakid
09-20-2006, 09:43 AM
I was playing flippit on the TV the other night. Caught the last part of Armageddon. Yeah they used a shockwave ring too, and two bowl shaped rings also. :cross-eye

I often use Armageddon as my scientific benchmark. :D

Jargo
09-20-2006, 11:05 AM
You're not supposed to be thinking a lot about the Alderaanians at that point. All the attention is centered on LEIA and what HER feelings and reaction are. THROUGH her, we know that it is a terrible event. Showing what's going on down on the ground would only dilute the focus of that scene, which is how Leia is affected and how the story will unfold because of what just happened.

We get further information about the "feelings" of the event immediately afterward with Old Ben. The point of that is to illustrate A) the power of the Force in general and B) Ben's connection to it.

So the point of the Alderaan destruction isn't to have the audience necessarily feel any sympathy for the people who die. That event has other story points that it is conveying.

Trouble is that particular scene is flat and Leia's reaction is pretty lame. I mean you get the whole drawn out hunting down and assasinating the jedi stuff in ROTS which to me seems like padding out a movie and not essential, then the destruction of an entire planet is merely glossed over. a few jedi dying is nothing compared to that. The destruction of Alderaan is the catalyst for what happens next yes, but in terms of how the audience feels about it the sequence should be meatier and have more impact in order to understand that the decision to launch an attack on the death star isn't just revenge but an almighty effort to save the galaxy from possible annihilation.

I understand exactly what you're saying. I just disagree.

"might I add that I find your point of view shallow and pedantic. Shallow and pedantic." :crazed:

stillakid
09-20-2006, 11:43 AM
Trouble is that particular scene is flat and Leia's reaction is pretty lame. I mean you get the whole drawn out hunting down and assasinating the jedi stuff in ROTS which to me seems like padding out a movie and not essential, then the destruction of an entire planet is merely glossed over. a few jedi dying is nothing compared to that. The destruction of Alderaan is the catalyst for what happens next yes, but in terms of how the audience feels about it the sequence should be meatier and have more impact in order to understand that the decision to launch an attack on the death star isn't just revenge but an almighty effort to save the galaxy from possible annihilation.

I understand exactly what you're saying. I just disagree.

"might I add that I find your point of view shallow and pedantic. Shallow and pedantic." :crazed:



Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Billy Madison: Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.

:D