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View Full Version : Okay, here's another problem with Palpatine in ROTS



El Chuxter
09-28-2006, 02:29 PM
This is going to be a really tough one to answer without dipping into EU, I know, but bear with me.

According to the little bit of info we have (mainly Dark Lord, Purge, and Last of the Jedi, along with the bits and pieces we get from ROTS and ANH), Vader was obsessed for a while with capturing or killing Obi-Wan. The Emperor repeatedly downplayed Kenobi's importance, though he encouraged Vader to nurse the grudge. About twenty years later, Obi-Wan and Yoda both still seem to be really low priority for the Empire--sure, they're wanted Jedi, but nothing remarkable about the two of them other than that. Luke's never even heard of Yoda, and Tarkin blows Vader off when he mentions Obi-Wan.

Why's this a problem?

First, Palpatine knows Yoda survived. Yoda simply walked into the (presumably heavily-guarded) Senate building and held his own against Palpatine, retreating when he wasn't really defeated. Palpatine knows Yoda is superior to Mace, who gave up one hell of a fight (whether Palpy threw it for Anakin's benefit or not).

And there's Obi-Wan, who also got around Coruscant quite easily (they're smart enough to figure out he must've snuck onboard Padme's ship there). And he bested the Chosen One in combat, then snuck away right under Palpatine's nose. Definitely no slouch, either.

Throw in the fact that, sometime shortly after ROTS, the Empire would've discovered that these two reprogrammed the beacon in the Jedi Temple.

Why, then, are Yoda and Obi-Wan not tied for Public Enemy #1 on the Empire's Most Wanted list? Why doesn't everyone in the galaxy know who they are and keep an eye open for them?

Tarkin comments that Obi-Wan must be dead by the time of ANH. In 1977, we assumed he was referring to his age. But the guy would be in his late 50s at the most--still a spring chicken compared to human Jedi greats like Dooku, Mace, and Qui-Gon.

What gives?

shammykenobi
09-28-2006, 02:36 PM
So I take it that mace and qui-gon were pretty old then?? How old were they supposed to be? I had heard once that qui-gon was in his 60's, but I was always under the impression that mace was in his late 40's early 50's. Anyone know?

pbarnard
09-28-2006, 04:47 PM
Tarkin was probably referring to the large number of things like Bounty Hunters, Imperial Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, etc that could be dispatched to kill Jedi.

Palpy was probably thinking (like all others) that Yoda was old than, he's older, ~20 years later and could probably be dead, or be in such failing health that he's no real threat.

Darth Jax
09-28-2006, 08:59 PM
the imperial spin machine has painted the jedi as traitors and murderers. few people are foolish enough to voice their opinions and those that do are easily led away to kessel. by not publicizing the fact that there are at least 2 rogue jedi still around it wouldn't take long for the lies being spread to replace fact and in the outer regions jedi are probably easily forgotten. look at lukes failure to recognize what a light saber is in ANH, obers has to explain it to him.

once he's got the republic (his new empire) in his grasp palpy has more to fear from the coming vong than a few jedi in exile.

and i don't think it's necessarily just obi-wan, vader harbors a jones to get rid of all the jedi that escaped order 66, obers just happens to be a little more prominently featured in EU and aside from yoda is the only survivor to appear in the OT.

Luuuuuuke
09-28-2006, 10:43 PM
I kind of agree with Darth Jax's take. It's a case of out of sight, out of mind. Besides, if they draw attention to these rogue Jedis, they risk turning them into legends. The more you pursue them, the more you risk hardening the resolve those who become disaffected with the Empire, and the more likely that some will try to rally behind 2 Jedi "outlaws."

Yoda and Obi Wan were better left forgotten.

JimJamBonds
09-29-2006, 12:07 AM
I think Palpy didn't care because 1) most of the Jedi are dead so they can't round up a bunch of them and go after Palpy 2) the Jedi became hated so the few remaining Jedi wouldn't be able to "practice in the open" thus they wouldn't be a big threat 3) there at this point there were bigger fish to fry 4) he was cocky.

Bel-Cam Jos
09-30-2006, 10:18 AM
If you say "all the Jedi are dead," some in the galaxy will believe you. Some will be smart enough to realize that "all" actually means "most," but since they're smart, they know that the few that may have survived aren't enough to topple the Imperial machine.

Besides, if the Emperor came to you, as an Imperial recruit or established officer and said "all the Jedi are dead," would you deny it to him? After a while, that indocrination would become reality for you.

And, Mr. AllSeeing-AllKnowing Palpatine would probably want to have some Jedi alive, even ones as powerful as Yoda or Obi-Wan to test his followers, in case ruling the galaxy got old and boring. :o :zzz:

JEDIpartner
10-01-2006, 08:46 AM
You're over-analysing a fictional work that is rooted in fantasy- containing creatures, vehicles, locales and plotlines that aren't remotely real or possible in the first place. Okay. Continue.

;)

JimJamBonds
10-01-2006, 08:55 AM
You're over-analysing a fictional work that is rooted in fantasy- containing creatures, vehicles, locales and plotlines that aren't remotely real or possible in the first place. Okay. Continue.

;)

Wait.... was the above directed towards this thread or the entire board? ;)

Bel-Cam Jos
10-01-2006, 09:10 AM
You're over-analysing a fictional work that is rooted in fantasy- containing creatures, vehicles, locales and plotlines that aren't remotely real or possible in the first place. Okay. Continue.

;)WHAAAAAAAAAA-?!?
No... that's not true! That's impossible!
NO-OOOOO! NOOOO-OOOOOOO!!!


See? They always say: if you're having trouble getting your point across, speak louder.:D

Okay. Let's continue.

El Chuxter
10-01-2006, 10:40 AM
You're over-analysing a fictional work that is rooted in fantasy- containing creatures, vehicles, locales and plotlines that aren't remotely real or possible in the first place. Okay. Continue.

;)

Should I over-analyze Slicker's Mom instead?&

rbaumhauer
10-01-2006, 06:18 PM
I've said for years that the timeline is irretrievably broken, and this is just one aspect of it.....

JEDIpartner
10-02-2006, 03:57 PM
My comment only applies to people who pick things apart way too much and force real-world physics and such to a fantasty movie. I just sit back and enjoy it. :)

jlw
10-27-2006, 06:45 AM
This is an area that sorta hits on a point I've tried to make in the original trilogy, and that is I do not think that Vader or Palps knew Yoda was still living. I don't think that ever crossed their mind. Vader always mentioned "Obi-Wan" without ever mentioning Yoda. So, to me this implies that Vader believed that only Obi-Wan lived and trained Luke, and that Luke's training ended in A New Hope.

Rocketboy
10-27-2006, 01:29 PM
ROTS: "If there is no body, then he's not dead." (or something close)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-27-2006, 05:40 PM
Palpatine whooped Yoda once, so he wasn't a problem. Palpatine knew that the Jedi wouldn't directly take him on, as he was more powerful than they were (most of them, at least).

I know you said you didn't want to go into EU, but in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Palpatine blows off the idea that the Jedi are still a threat; he would rather have the remaining ones running and hiding, getting payback for centuries of doing the same to the Sith, than have them dead.

Vader took a more proactive approach and wanted to kill the remaining Jedi, but once he went to the Jedi Temple and his emotions ran high, he decided not to go back to places that held emotional events in his earlier life, so Naboo and Tatooine were mentioned as being strictly off-limits (so he obviously never found Obi-Wan or Luke).

I'm still halfway through the book (going deliberately slow for school) but it's pretty good.

JimJamBonds
10-28-2006, 10:34 AM
ROTS: "If there is no body, then he's not dead." (or something close)

Ahh where and by whom is that said in the movie?

2-1B
10-28-2006, 12:05 PM
Charlotte's underling Mas Amedda said that to the red stormtroopers in ROTS.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-28-2006, 12:34 PM
Actually, Mas Amedda tells the shocktroopers, "Then he's not dead!" and Palpatine says "Double your search!" Just in case you were wondering. ;)

El Chuxter
10-29-2006, 10:01 AM
And then Yoda says, "Not dead yet, I am. Better am I getting."

TheDarthVader
10-29-2006, 10:04 AM
Maybe Palpy understood Obi Wan's failure with Anakin and was hoping that Obi Wan would fail with Luke too. Palpy supposively was able to see the future so maybe he knew that Obi Wan would be teaching Luke. Obi Wan had already helped produced Vader so maybe he would produce a more powerful apprentice for Palpy (Luke). And let me say that he was close to doing it! Because Obi Wan "lied" about Luke's father, and that made Luke mad.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-29-2006, 12:50 PM
Maybe Palpy understood Obi Wan's failure with Anakin and was hoping that Obi Wan would fail with Luke too. Palpy supposively was able to see the future so maybe he knew that Obi Wan would be teaching Luke. Obi Wan had already helped produced Vader so maybe he would produce a more powerful apprentice for Palpy (Luke). And let me say that he was close to doing it! Because Obi Wan "lied" about Luke's father, and that made Luke mad.
I don't think so. In ESB, Palpatine explicitly tells Vader that "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi," and that Luke is their "new enemy." I think that Palpatine really wished that Obi-Wan hadn't found Luke, and that the Sith could have gotten him from the beginning; since that wasn't a possibility, they were trying to turn him (Palpatine so he could get rid of Vader; Vader so he could get rid of Palpatine) before he became more of a Jedi and too much of a threat.

Sorry to go all JT on everyone, but it's "supposedly," not "supposively." :thumbsup:

Bel-Cam Jos
10-31-2006, 09:25 PM
Sorry to go all JT on everyone, but it's "supposedly," not "supposively." :thumbsup:And you prolly went to the libary to find that out.

But whenever you question Palpy's motives, he often tricks you into thinking that he knows when you know he's lying about telling an untruth to mislead you into thinking he's lying or just not telling the whole truth, partially. Wha-?!? Huh?!? :confused: :evil: