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Tycho
01-30-2002, 03:29 PM
The whole proof has just been added to my last post in the Mace's Death Thread in the Episode 3 Spoilers Section.

I didn't want to get repetative here, but will copy / paste and post if requested to do so.

The Phantom Menace now makes more sense than ever before!

George Lucas is a genius! This will upset The Godfather as one of the greatest family dramas in all history!

But you will see the influence.

The Dooku Connection post in the infamous "Mace's Death Thread" (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?postid=34912#post34912)

Jargo
01-30-2002, 04:40 PM
I don't see any proof, just supposition and wishful thinking.

Tycho
01-30-2002, 05:16 PM
The only "real proof" can be two movies - one released this May, the other in 2005.

However, I am assuming that you know "proofs" in geometry are theories based on using existing information, speculation (hypothesizing) and then testing the theories to make new ones.

If you read the post in the Mace's Death Thread linked to above,
you then can test the theory by saying which specific parts to the speculation you disagree with, and myself, or people who do agree with it can respond and see if we can counter that. However, if you agree with it making sense, you can continue thinking wishfully (like me) that this is a good way for it all to turn out. Either way, hope George knows what he's doing!

Lord Malakite
01-30-2002, 05:24 PM
Tycho, your theory makes it sound like a galactic soap opera.

(Scene) On top of a volcano.
Dooku: Ani, I am your father.
Anakin: No, its not possible. Obi-Wan said that I had no father.
Dooku: Search your feelings and you know that it is true.
Obi-Wan: What I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Anakin: A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Your going to find that many of truths we cling to rely on a certain point of view. Your father left before you were born and never returned, so in a since, you had no father from a certain point of view. :D
Dooku: Join me and we can rule as father and son.
Anakin: :cry: YEEEEAAAGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Anakin steps off the ledge and falls into the molten rock below.

Jargo
01-30-2002, 05:30 PM
As the moderator of the episode three section I have to read every word you write Tycho......

There's nothing in any of the known facts about episode two or the relationships of any of the characters to suggest that Dooku, Qui-Gon or Palpatine is the father of Anakin. Yes, I agree that the only real proof comes from the finished movies which is why I called into doubt your assertion. Which is based on hypothesis and speculation and nothing more concrete. And citing the books of the EU canon is not evidence at all. George has never used any of the information from the EU sources to base anything in the movies on, apart from the designs from the computer games and comic books. And then it's simply been scene filler stuff with little consequence to the actual plot or film itself. Perhaps if you'd touted this thread as 'possible proof' then I wouldn't have even bothered to read it in the first place and would never have responded. As it is I'm sitting wondering why I did...... :crazed:

Tycho
01-30-2002, 05:31 PM
LOL - you have the script to Episode 3 already??? ;)

That's pretty close, but this time I don't think Obi-Wan knows anything about what's going on.

Shmi Skywalker, in her death scene tells Anakin some of the truth. She won't know what Dooku calls himself these days, or where he is.

derek
01-30-2002, 10:44 PM
lucas has made it clear that he has based his star wars stories on our myths. the virgin birth of jesus is one of our myths. anakin is as much a "jesus" type character in lucas' myth as the force is "god". i know the similarities between jesus and anakin may be few, but both eventually become their people's savior.

i bet my mint on card farmer qui-gon that the virgin, force inspired birth will stand, and no drunk, renegade, or evil jedi will be revealed as anakins father. shmi wasn't lying or drunk or a loose woman.:D

Tycho
01-30-2002, 10:59 PM
That all depends on what you think Lucas ultimately might believe the Virgin Mary was. The mother of God's offspring, or someone that could've gotten stoned, or less benefits than a homeless person in Bethlehem, especially if she was unmarried, with Joseph's child?

This is all further explored in the Mace's Death Thread, but relates more to Anakin, because I didn't want to offend anyone or start a religious debate.

derek
01-30-2002, 11:27 PM
tycho,

don't worry about offending anyone. if you do, i'm sure it will be deleted. (i'm joking sir steve):D

in regards to the virgin birth, i bet lucas will leave it up to our speculation. but if anyone is his father, it should be sideous.

Tycho
01-31-2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Perhaps if you'd touted this thread as 'possible proof' then I wouldn't have even bothered to read it in the first place and would never have responded. As it is I'm sitting wondering why I did...... :crazed:

I'm glad you did, because you can add your opinion to the story element of it (versus just your opinion of whether speculating is worth its trouble). In other words, if you speculated about whether Anakin had a virgin birth or there is more to the story ("from a certain point of view"), you would explain Anakin's parentage as....?????

[Anything we say before the movie comes out is speculation more or less anyway. The fun is in predicting it - like what would be cool? If this, than this...]

So how do you think Anakin was conceived Jargo? What would the consequences of that be (in the Star Wars universe)???

How does that fit in with what we know from the other movies???
Do things that happened in TPM hint at it?

Co Jo-Da
01-31-2002, 02:29 AM
I seriously doubt that Anakin's Father will ever come to light because there isn't one. Anakin is a Virgin Birth, plain and simple. Give 'Hero with a Thousand Faces' (the Virgin Birth, Chapter II) a read, GL did and you can see it for your-self...

2-1B
01-31-2002, 03:12 AM
I believe the conception of Anakin will remain a mystery. The loss of his mother (if spoiler reports are true) in AOTC is the most painful event possible, and a "revelation" by Shmi would just take away from the storyline.

We know of an apprentice turned evil (Vader), and now it appears we will learn of a master turned evil (Dooku). If it's Dooku, I will be seriously disappointed.

If there IS a father, Sidious is the most likely candidate. However, I do not think it is likely. There is nothing in TPM that leads me to believe it is even a possibility. The only thing Anakin has to do with Sidious is Palps' comment to Anakin at the end. And it was never planned from the beginning - I believe the novelization of TPM does not include it because it was added later.

Obi-Don
01-31-2002, 07:25 AM
I hope that someone turns out to be his father. I always hated and still do the no father part. I think it was GLs way of covering a part in which he himself wasn't sure which way to go or how he could do this. To me this was the lamest part of the entire story of Star Wars. I hope you are right.

LTBasker
01-31-2002, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Co Jo-Da
I seriously doubt that Anakin's Father will ever come to light because there isn't one. Anakin is a Virgin Birth, plain and simple. Give 'Hero with a Thousand Faces' (the Virgin Birth, Chapter II) a read, GL did and you can see it for your-self...

I don't think it was said that Shmi was a virgin...

Why can't just people accept that Lucas said way before the Episode 1 came out that Anakin has NO biological father? he's just got a micro-organism father. :D

JetsAndHeels
01-31-2002, 01:41 PM
Anakins father is George Lucas himself. This was an idea that GL had to make us think about Anakin's place. He is the one who will bring balance to the force. He was conceived by the midichlorians.
Of course this is a little farfetched, but nothing is really too weird in the Star Wars universe.
If your theory is correct, I will be the first to come back here and
praise you for it.

hamsterboy
02-01-2002, 02:29 AM
What bugs me is that in TPM,when Qui-Jon asked Shmi who the father was,she gave him that same look Obi-Wan gave Luke in ANH when Luke asked what happened to his father. Rumor has it Lucas changed his mind about there not being a father. Of course,only time will tell.

Toad
03-01-2002, 10:34 AM
I, too, dislike the "no father" theory and hope it's resolved.

DahrJin
03-01-2002, 10:58 AM
If you read through this guys rant and review of the AOTC script, he hints to a major event that starts Anakins seduction of the darkside. I believe we will indeed get a hint as to who his father is. If you haven't read the review, here's a link......the first page is "spoiler free" but if you want more, click through to the second page.

http://www.aint-it-cool.com/display.cgi?id=11618 (www.aint-it-cool.com/display.cgi?id=11618)

Co Jo-Da
03-02-2002, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Toad
I, too, dislike the "no father" theory and hope it's resolved.

I'm sticking to my guns on this subject, ANAKIN HAS NO FATHER AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE, case closed end of story. Sorry Toad...

jw_bryant
03-02-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Co Jo-Da


I'm sticking to my guns on this subject, ANAKIN HAS NO FATHER AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE, case closed end of story. Sorry Toad...

i agree.

Tycho
03-02-2002, 11:02 PM
No way! I think Dooku is the Daddy!

They were saying it wasn't true about Darth Vader in 1980. - and Ben told Luke that Vader murdered Luke's natural father. So why can't Shmi be lying about there not being a father? A father raises his children anyway. Not just impregnates a girl and runs.

This fits perfectly with Lucas repeating themes. Now someone will Kill their own father and take his place at Palpatine's side. With the kind of daddy Dooku's been, Anakin should hate him enough to want to kill him, especially when he's still reeling from the death of his mother. He'll wonder why Dooku, a Jedi Master couldn't protect her!

So what if it is true? Will you guys all be disappointed? If it goes down that way, will you guys hate it because Lucas repeats themes? Will you see this instead as being poetic, or showing different choices (Luke chooses a different alternative in ROTJ obviously).

Beast
03-02-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
No way! I think Dooku is the Daddy!
So what if it is true? Will you guys all be disappointed? If it goes down that way, will you guys hate it because Lucas repeats themes? Will you see this instead as being poetic, or showing different choices (Luke chooses a different alternative in ROTJ obviously).
I won't be disapointed, you know that I share the same theroy on the father of Anakin. Lucas talks about it in the Audio Commentary for the TPM DVD at 1:14:00. Check it out, he explains that they both are on similar paths, and that Luke does follow in his father's footsteps, just sometimes choosing a diffent path and making different choices.


Lucas: "What's kind of a theme and it re-occurs in Episode IV is that I purposefully develop themes and ideas and repeat them. It's very very clear in the two trilogy's that I'm putting the charecters in pretty much the in the same situations. Sometimes even using the same dialouge. So that the father and the son go thru pretty much the same experience. Obviously, Anakin takes a different road then his son takes, so that at some of these turning points, they go the other way. But it's been set up for you to almost expect that they will go...ya know, that Luke will follow in his father's footsteps because in alot of these Episodes they do follow each other. Which leads to a subtle influence which gives the audience a little expectation."

Lucas is using the repeating themes, just with different choices. Consider these two examples. Luke didn't wanna leave Tatooine, and leave his aunt and uncle. It took their death for him to decide to go. Anakin with some coaxing from Shmi left happily of his own free will. Another instance is the fact that Luke blew up the Death Star, but he knew what he was doing, where in Anakin's case it was an accident, possibly willed by the force that he destroyed the Droid control ship. So I wouldn't be suprised at all to see Lucas pull a suprise father reveal on Anakin, and Dooku is the only one that makes sense, really. So while Luke didn't strike down his father and take his place at the Emporer's side, Anakin will strike Dooku down, probably not until E3 and take his place at Sidious' side. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jargo
03-02-2002, 11:33 PM
Why is it not being a father if you don't see your kid? Tycho your inference seems to imply that fathers can't be fathers if they live apart from the family unit. Maybe - and I mean maybe, if Dooku is Anakin's father he just couldn't be seen to have knocked up a slave girl/woman. Dooku is a gentleman who lives in a certain kind of world that would disapprove of this sort of behaviour. it would make his life awkward and lead to a loss of face with his peers. Dooku possibly kept it a secret and promisd to look the boy up when he got older and more able to understand the situation. Maybe Dooku was slated to return for Anakin - if he is the father. maybe Shmi was sworn to secrecy and was simply keeping her word. Not really lying per se, but not really telling the whole truth. Why would she tell a complete stranger her life story? All she wants is for Anakin to get off planet and if Dooku is the father then she sees that Qui-Gon offers an opportunity to get him nearer to his father on Coruscant. Maybe

I don't personally subscribe to the theory of Dooku as the father. it's a little too convenient. not everything has to be explained away. I like the enigma as it stands and I'm happy to never find out.

Tycho
03-02-2002, 11:51 PM
Not a complete stranger. Dooku was Qui-Gon's Jedi Master a long time before Anakin was born (as 9 years ago from that point, Qui-Gon was no padawan, but the Master of a 15 year old Obi-Wan Kenobi).

So Shmi already knew who Qui-Gon was, but he didn't have the foggiest clue as to what his former Master was doing probably some 20 years after Qui-Gon had traveled with Dooku.

Furthermore, that's why Shmi let Anakin go with Qui-Gon. Dooku had been intimate with her and told her about his former padawan.

Now Aurra Sing could have even been hired by Dooku to keep Anakin safe, hence why she was watching him in the Pod Race. Dooku would know about other Jedi, and Force-weilding resources he could hire outside the Temple's influence.

Finally, maybe what Qui-Gon sensed in the boy was something familiar (because it was his Master's son) and he just couldn't quite place it.

Oh - and Dooku LEAVES the Jedi Order (Sith or not) right before Anakin is brought there to train? Could be a coincidence, but Anakin's blood had to be retested, and a link could be traced!

jw_bryant
03-02-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

I won't be disapointed, you know that I share the same theroy on the father of Anakin. Lucas talks about it in the Audio Commentary for the TPM DVD at 1:14:00. Check it out, he explains that they both are on similar paths, and that Luke does follow in his father's footsteps, just sometimes choosing a diffent path and making different choices.



Lucas is using the repeating themes, just with different choices. Consider these two examples. Luke didn't wanna leave Tatooine, and leave his aunt and uncle. It took their death for him to decide to go. Anakin with some coaxing from Shmi left happily of his own free will. Another instance is the fact that Luke blew up the Death Star, but he knew what he was doing, where in Anakin's case it was an accident, possibly willed by the force that he destroyed the Droid control ship. So I wouldn't be suprised at all to see Lucas pull a suprise father reveal on Anakin, and Dooku is the only one that makes sense, really. So while Luke didn't strike down his father and take his place at the Emporer's side, Anakin will strike Dooku down, probably not until E3 and take his place at Sidious' side. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

that post greatly swayed my opinion on it, but i still think he has no father.

Beast
03-03-2002, 12:16 AM
Not to mention Tycho, why exactly is Dooku hooked up with Sidious? If he is as we suspect Qui-Gon's Master, he may have missed that father son relationship that they had. Perhaps Sidious learned of Dooku's paternal relation to Anakin and used that to gain his assistance. Sidious would have information, that no one else would look for. Especially if Dooku told him all about his secret love for Shmi as well as the child they had against the council's wishes. Dooku may infact be working with Sidious to not only help him, but for his own reasons. Remeber that according to Jedi Law, the child is taken at birth and the parents are forbidden to see their children. So Dooku in assisting Sidious with his plans, could be hoping with Sidious in power he can actually claim parentage of his son. Somthing that he wouldn't have been able to do with the Jedi's in control. Sidious plays everyone off each other, and could care less about anyone as long as it gets him what he wants.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Co Jo-Da
03-03-2002, 01:05 AM
Well for all those that believe that Anakin has a father, I just can't wait till the closing credits on Episode III and Anakin's father hadn't been revealed...


HE IS A VIRGIN BIRTH, JUST ACCEPT IT AND MOVE ON…

Beast
03-03-2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Co Jo-Da
Well for all those that believe that Anakin has a father, I just can't wait till the closing credits on Episode III and Anakin's father hadn't been revealed...HE IS A VIRGIN BIRTH, JUST ACCEPT IT AND MOVE ON…
Yep, just exactly like how Luke's father really was killed by Darth Vader. :) Remember not everything Lucas told you in E1 is true, from a certain point of view. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jargo
03-03-2002, 07:46 AM
oops! bad post.:D

Bosskman
03-03-2002, 08:35 AM
Here's a theory that I think is at least possible given what we know from TPM and AOTC. Shmi says: "I carried him, I gave birth, I can't explain what happened..." She could have, therefore, been unknowingly impregnated by some other means than the old fashioned way. We know there is genetic engineering in AOTC, the title speaks for itself. Maybe, just maybe, Sideous had somehow come up with a super-high midichlorian count imbryo emplanted into Schmi and then had someone (as much as it pains me to say it, Aurra Sing) watch over her and Anakin until the time was right for him to be trained in the ways of the dark side. Qui-Gon says the Midis are inside Cells and Yoda in ROTJ implies that the Force (midis at least) are passed on through inheritance so it is possible that Sidious had this done and Dooku knows about it somehow or is involved in some way. THIS IS JUST A THEORY OF MINE.

jw_bryant
03-03-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Bosskman
as much as it pains me to say it, Aurra Sing.

what the hell?
she had a two second appearence in TPM. why does everyone try to give her such a big part in the movie, when she doesnt have one?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Co Jo-Da
03-05-2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by jw_bryant


what the hell?
she had a two second appearence in TPM. why does everyone try to give her such a big part in the movie, when she doesnt have one?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Well I glad to see an end to the Anakin debate... :p

Tycho
03-05-2002, 01:22 AM
No, it's just been discussed enough. My opinion hasn't changed. I don't like the virgin birth concept any way you spin that (in or outside of Star Wars), but the point of talking about it further before Episode 3 is out is moot.

I think someone pointed it out that Dooku could even tell Anakin that he is his father in E2, but that could even be a lie. So in 2005 I guess we'll pick this up again.

That's all.

Darth Ovori
03-05-2002, 07:06 PM
Aha... Hidden plot or spoiler there...

Just as Anakins mother dies in his arms, her final words are that he has a father... He was to terrible of man to have told him before... Hence his angry will more...

Then maybe the Emperor mentions to Anakin that he's the daddy making Anakin take sides with him... (Maybe a bit like the ESB redo... )

The differance of choice's of Anakin and Luke will show the balance of the force in destinies chosen...

Darth Ovori
03-07-2002, 12:55 PM
Arghhh, just thought of something, what if Dooku left the jedi code cause he too fell in love... maybe with Anakins mom... ???

Tycho
03-07-2002, 04:55 PM
No. Maybe they tried to hide it for that reason. But Dooku leaves the Jedi about the time Anakin joins them. That's at least 9 years after he has fathered a child with Shmi. He may have left so that when Anakin is genetically tested for midichlorians, Dooku doesn't have to face the Jedi Council who will obviously find out that Anakin is related. They don't tell Anakin either. Another reason he will hate the Jedi. But I'm sure Mace and Yoda don't want Anakin chasing off after his father, ignoring his training with Obi-Wan.

jawaboy
03-07-2002, 07:38 PM
Who's your daddy? Huh? Who's your daddy?

Tycho
03-07-2002, 07:51 PM
I see Jawaboy got a hold of the deleted scenes of Luke and Leia. :D

manji
03-23-2002, 04:38 PM
I apologize if this has been discussed before (and if I'm posting in the wrong forums) but I recently watched TPM and this started bugging me...

Concerning Anakin, Shmi says "I carried him, I gave birth to him, I raised him....I can't explain what happened."

Much of what I have read suggests that Shmi is alluding to a "virgin birth" much like the one in the bible.

However, anyone in the fields of psychology, sociology, or education may disagree.

Consider the following....
A woman who has been down on her luck meets someone she feels is "the man she will settle down with". She loves him, hangs out with him, and eventually has sex with him. Unfortunately for her, his feelings are not the same and he leaves. Shmi is so embarassed by her promiscuity that when she and Qui-Gonn have their discussion, she proffers the above quote "I don't know what happened...".

Maybe she can't explain what happened because she's so embarassed because she just had sex with someone who would do her and leave her!

If this has been previously discussed, I supplicate myself before the moderators so that they will lead me in the right direction for answers to my questions.

Rollo Tomassi
03-23-2002, 04:43 PM
I think Shmi is a genetic offshoot of humans from a race who can reproduce asexually. When they DO conceive of children the natural way, they have twins. No midichlorians on THAT theory either. Or she could be lying...

Lord Tenebrous
03-23-2002, 07:46 PM
Maybe all the ultraviolet radiation from the twin suns of Tatooine caused a mutation in the Midi-Chlorians, altering them into free-thinking sex cells that mated with Shmi.


It's a valid theory... :p

LTBasker
03-23-2002, 08:04 PM
Lucas took that whole Jesus bit and used midichlorians as the force's sperm to implant itself inside her womb and then the "chosen one" would be concieved via midichlorians.

Technically Lucas has said that himself, not in the same words though.

2-1B
03-24-2002, 01:05 AM
I think Lucas had the virgin birth in mind when he planned it that way, but I'm not sure that he was keeping only Jesus' story in mind. He likes to draw from eastern religions as well, and there are accounts of such happenings in other forms. :)

Rollo Tomassi
03-24-2002, 03:23 AM
Do you think when he was writing the whole story back in the early 70's and he cut the story in half and decided to concentrate on the second half of the story with Luke and co. but he knew that Anakin was Vader and there was a history between Anakin and Obi Wan, do you think he was imagining Anakin as a virgin birth character? Or do you think that little tidbit occured AFTER he slipped on the wet toilet and cracked his head on the porcelain Doc Brown style...






:Pirate: Yohoho and a bottle o' rum, mateys.

Jargo
03-24-2002, 08:36 AM
Shmy's a slave right? She's been through some tough times. probably quite a few tough times in the employ of Gardulla the Hutt. We all know what jabba's court was like so it's fair to assume that Gardulla has a similar den of iniquity somewhere round mos Espa. Any of Gardulla's courtiers could have 'done' Shmy and she wouldn't have known about as she probably would have been drugged beforehand. A date rape sort of thing. And if she was indeed a virgin and had no experience of sexual activity at all then how would she know she'd had sex? She could just see it as yet another beating at the hands of her tormentors. next thing she knows she's got a bun in the oven and is getting fatter. Then she drops the sprog and has to provide for a brat for all those years. So maybe she does work out what happened. i think she lied to get rid of the brat. When he left she heaved a big sigh of relief right? Watch that scene as Anakin runs to catch up with Qui-Gon, the last shot we get of Shmy is her hugging herself and sighing. That's a release from servitude that is. :D

Co Jo-Da
03-25-2002, 01:50 AM
Oh my dear god...

I'm so tried of someone bring this up every two or three weeks. I never believed that GL intended Anakin to be referred to as Jesus Christ and it's very freak'n clear that no one reads MYTHOLOGY. In Mythology there are hundreds of references to Virgin Birth, as a matter of fact they happen quiet often. And for all those folks that think I'm making this stuff up:

Moria (the Sky) hears the cry a poor young women who’s entire family drowned in a massive flesh flood. Moria looks down on her with compassion and grants her new life in her womb.

WOW, a VIRGIN BIRTH and it's not JESUS... or

Sinilau, a old disfigured women, prays to Buddha (a different one, an Aztec God of the Heaven) to end her life of emptiness and is given a son of her own blood...

Now can we please stop talking about this stupid subject that belongs more in the Episode I section than in Episode II section because the story is moving forward to Anakin’s fall towards the Dark-Side and not looking back on where he came from.

jedihunter25
03-25-2002, 01:58 AM
Maybe Anakin is the son of Satan- he does become Dath Vader!!

Co Jo-Da
03-25-2002, 02:10 AM
See that's funny JediHunter25. But the point is that Anakin is the 'Chosen One' and is support to bring ‘Balance to the Force’ but he chooses to run from his destiny.

JediTricks
03-25-2002, 03:11 AM
I have several comments on this. My first one is that I think Jargo has a point there, she's a slave, slaves sometimes have to do unpleasant things, even if they are considered a luxury item more than an indentured servant. In the Illustrated Screenplay, Shmi's line was like this "There was no father, that I know of..." that last part got cut in the final film, but it shows that even recently, Lucas wrote a loophole in there for the issue. Shmi doesn't REALLY know what's going on.


Then there's my far-out concept which is still possible right now:

Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi knight who doesn't always follow the code, learns about the prophecy of the son of suns (perhaps born of starstuff, midichlorians - I tossed this in from no particular source BTW), and gets wrapped up in the concept of the boy who will bring balance to the Force. Qui-Gon does a lot of research about the galaxy - planets, customs, politics, etc. - and eventually zeroes in on the Outer Rim, then goes to Tatooine where he finds an unknown lass (Shmi) and decides to make a play to get her knocked up. Then the Jedi, in disguise, clouds her mind and beats a hasty retreat. Almost as soon as Qui-Gon returns to the Jedi order, he's given a new padawan learner, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the teaching of this youngster the ways of the Force distracts Jinn from concentrating on his real son until he is sent to Naboo (Tatooine being in a straight line between Coruscant and Naboo), where he sabotages the Queen's starship, let's his apprentice "find" Tatooine as a safe haven, and manipulates the situation to make sure he gets the ship to this planet and even parks the royal starship near the city where his slave woman was last headed. These actions cause his path to make a hard detour towards the dark side, and his ability to join with the Force at death is cut off by his self-serving deeds.

It's a possibility anyway, and seems kinda interesting to me. A slight twist on the "Luke, I am your father!"

Co Jo-Da
03-25-2002, 03:29 AM
I don't think Qui-Gonn is Anakin's father, in fact I don't think Anakin has a father. I'm very convinced that the subject of Anakin's father won't be talked about or referred to in the rest of series and I like that...

jawaboy
03-25-2002, 08:23 AM
THIS IS THE REAL WAY IT GOES DOWN:

"Who was his father?"

"I carried him, I gave birth to him, I raised him....I can't explain what happened."

Qui-gon misunderstood her.

What she really meant is that she can't explain his powers, not who his father is.

Anakin has a father, Shmi just feels uncomfortable with that whole subject for some reason and we will eventually find out why.

JEDIpartner
03-25-2002, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Co Jo-Da
Oh my dear god...

I'm with you on the mythology angle. It has happened in Japanese folklore as well. Virgin births are a result of mystic or divine intervention. They usually occur when the course of history/events need to be altered by a "human" presence.

Tycho
03-25-2002, 10:50 AM
This is the spoiler section, right?

Count Dooku is most likely Anakin's father.

It would defrock him like a Catholic Priest if he were caught reproducing, being that he was a Jedi Knight.

Anakin was conceived 9 years before TPM, so Obi-Wan (age 24 in TPM) would have been 15 and already training with Qui-Gon - who would obviously not know every little thing his own Master, Dooku, would be doing after Qui-Gon had completed his training.

But Dooku would have pledged to protect Shmi and his son, thus hired a Jedi drop-out, turned mercenary, namely Aurra Sing, to watch over Anakin until the Jedi could protect him.

Shmi already knows who Qui-Gon is, because she knows everything about Dooku. She doesn't tell him everything to make her lover lose face in the eyes of his star apprentice, but she trusts Qui-Gon with her son.

Dooku had to leave the Jedi promptly as Anakin's bloodwork would reveal not only his midi-chlorians, but his obvious parentage. Because the Jedi denied him love, like the son, so is the father - one who will leave the Jedi Order and seek a new code of beliefs that come with his power amongst the Sith.

Lucas is always repeating themes.

Meanwhile, the Jedi won't tell Anakin about his father. They want children raised independent of their parents and all emotional attachments and they have enough problems with the kid's attachment to his mother.

When Shmi dies, she will reveal to Anakin the truth - or why have her still alive when Anakin learns of what happened with the Tuskens?

Finally, Anakin will blame his father for what happened to him and his mother - that they fell into slavery when a Jedi refused to take responsibility for his affairs. Palpatine will offer him power to protect his loved ones (for his own sly reasons), and offer Anakin the chance to kill his father and take his place at the Emperor's side. Repeated theme. In this case, Anakin does it. Maybe also to protect Obi-Wan, if they go that direct and Dooku tempts Obi-Wan as in the trailer. "If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps your Master will!" Or his children ...if everyone including Dooku and Palpatine know about Padme's pregnancy (that doesn't mean they know 'a baby' is born.

Meanwhile, the theme continues as Anakin struggles to take responsibility for his own son when he learns of Luke's existence and cuts off his right hand to show how much he loves him.... (sarcasm).

But it all works out well this way.

Finally, I don't believe in the Virgin Birth of Christ anyway, and just love to debate so-called Christians on that...

LTBasker
03-25-2002, 12:22 PM
Ya know the thing is, if Shmi was "raped" without knowing it, I'm fairly sure she would have a way of knowing if she was still a virgin. :rolleyes:

Jedi Clint
03-25-2002, 12:45 PM
I think the explanation given for Anakin's conception will be left untouched going into the next 2 films. I agree with Co Jo-Da, we are going forward with his mystical purpose in the saga, not backwards with an explanation. We will see which side had better instincts in 05.

Until such time in this forum, Tycho's topic "Anakin's Father" will be the official location for this discussion. And with that.....

2-1B
03-25-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Finally, I don't believe in the Virgin Birth of Christ anyway, and just love to debate so-called Christians on that...

Tycho, are you referring to the belief that Mary never had sex yet conceived a child, or the belief that Mary was not a virgin yet still conceived immaculately? That's another issue, I know, but I'm just curious :)

With this issue of Ani's conception, I never really thought of it as a virgin birth but rather an "immaculate conception". When Qui-Gonn theorizes that he may have been conceived by the midichlorians, he is not referencing her sexual history.

And I agree, Anakin has no father, and we will (hopefully) hear no more of this in the films :D

Toad
03-25-2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Finally, I don't believe in the Virgin Birth of Christ anyway, and just love to debate so-called Christians on that...

Interesting point -- maybe that's why you believe so strongly in the existence of a "daddy" while us so-called Christians think the opposite.

I don't entirely hate anything you've said regarding Dooku; in fact, it sounds downright plausible.

I just don't like it, and that's why I threw in my two cents before.

You bring up a good point -- why have Shmi alive in Ep. II when Ani finds her? Obviously, she will divulge something. But maybe Lucas just wants to show her suffering, and how this emotionally affects Ani to the point of madness.

But I have a similar question -- if there is some kind of father (Dooku, you assume and believe), why spend so much time discussing Midichlorians in episode I? Seems like Lucas could have used all that time (even if it's 2-3 minutes, theatrically, that's a lot of time) for some greater purpose.

Tycho
03-25-2002, 04:31 PM
TOAD - I get to your point too!


Originally posted by Caesar


Tycho, are you referring to the belief that Mary never had sex yet conceived a child, or the belief that Mary was not a virgin yet still conceived immaculately? That's another issue, I know, but I'm just curious :)

Neither. I believe Joseph was the unwed father of Christ. They were poor and required the charity of others - Jesus was born in a barn afterall. If they were obvious "sinners," I'm not sure if the law would have been so severe that Mary would have been stoned (or Joseph castrated), or just that people would turn their backs on them like we might think of ignoring welfare moms today (who keep having children). Regardless, religious stories are invented to teach morality, in this case that you do not judge strangers and you help those in need - good values I do not dispute. So they say new life is a gift from God and as rumors spread and a baby is fussed over, the story gets changed and the baby is now a gift OF GOD. Finally, Joseph does the right thing and marries Mary and raises Jesus as his earthly father, right? Sounds very similar to shotgun weddings I've heard of coming out of drunken fraternity parties in college where the couple usually tell everyone that they really knew and loved each other. Or they marry and the baby is "premature" at eight months...

What was the other alternative? Jesus - victim of abortion? Instead he's the whole foundation of the right to life segment. Not directly related, but nevertheless connected, overpopulation, single-parent families, child neglect or abuse, adultery, divorce, and the "hands on training" of the next generations' bad parents who breed criminals to child abusers all followed. People trying to escape the consequences of a bad marriage idea, to the greater consequences of bringing another life into this world.

Hmmm. That would get me on another topic, but it would take this too far off the course of Star Wars I think. Let's try in a second anyway, but first on to Anakin...

TOADS QUESTION ABOUT MIDI-CHLORIANS:

I believe it is necessary because of the interest in Cloning - and especially in acquiring Jedi Powers.

Perhaps, Palpatine is injecting himself with cloned Midi-Chlorians. The idea of doing this was explored in the Jedi Apprentice books story arc dealing with Dr. Zan Arbor and her bounty hunter Ona Nobis (spelling). The women captured Qui-Gon and were draining his blood, experimenting on him until Obi-Wan, Siri, and her master Adi Gallia could rescue him. The threat to the Jedi was so serious, that the whole Jedi Council took an interest in this one!
But that's just Expanded Universe (supervised by Lucasfilm)

Meanwhile, I suspect Jango Fett was a Jedi trainee. Think about his skills and abilities. The comic preview for his multiple issue arc (not the one-shot out now) says he started as a farmer. I'm sure every farmer is a weapons master and Owen Lars "was just about to leave the farm and become an inter-galactic bounty hunter himself." Jedi drop-outs are assigned to 'community service.' They become Republic Guards, scientists, and are sent into the AgriCorps to help find ways to feed starving planets and increase the food in the galaxy. Jedi have extensive education as well as fighting skills - sort of doctorate degrees in everything - or at least a specialty. (Think StarFleet Officers if you like Trek).

So Jango had the midi-chlorians and the training, and grew bored farming. Hence he was valuable for Cloning experiments while he was selling his body to science to survive and set himself up for the credits to get the gear he needed for bounty hunting - a possible way to pursue justice per his training. Meanwhile, like a Jedi, he felt he should have an apprentice, or be part of some kind of family. Hence Boba Fett, with no mother that we know of. And Fett would then have Force-sensitivities which would explain a lot! Meanwhile, young Fett also has the benefit of training by someone who knows what they are doing - Jango! Ultimately, receptive Clones for which "The Force has a strong influence over" can carry out the will of Palpatine.

Finally, in Dark Empire, it fits his character to try and Clone himself and live forever. Palpatine doesn't care about a Sith Dynasty! Look at his patsy Maul - he couldn't go out in public! It would be like Gary Condit still being accepted by the voting majority! So the apprentice can NEVER take over if Palpatine is the master. Same with Vader. Dooku had a chance, but that was taken care of (in E3 we presume). So Palpatine needed a lot of Cloning experiments done. I think that's why he wanted Naboo in the first place - the water core is important, as is the energy. But Kamino sufficed, though Palpatine wanted to be dealing with all humans. Anyway....

Back to one last thought on parenting. If everyone had an ideal of two kids, a boy and a girl - at least that's my ideal in a happy marriage if I found the right girlfriend and spent a good few years with her WITHOUT children to begin with - then wouldn't our own kids have the right to have 2 kids of their own? That's 4 Grandchildren folks, or 6 decendants. Next, with modern healthcare, we'll see our great-grandchildren in a lot of cases. Uh...if they each have 2 kids, that's 8 great-grandchildren for a total of 16 decendants of you and your wife, that you will know in your lifetime.

Can you provide 16 jobs, 16 homes, and feed 16 mouths? With issues from everything from birth defects causing retardation, to statistics showing that 50% of marriages fail, meaning that possibly up to 8 of your descendants will return to move in with you AFTER they are 18 years old and should be on their own... not to mention the income loss as your son can't afford a home because he has to pay alimony, or your daughter can't take care of her two kids because she has to work 2 jobs since the dad's a dead-beat. So your grandchildren are unsupervised (if you don't get involved) and turn to gangs or fall victim to child-abuse by step parents your kid marries again in a desperate attempt to improve their economic situation.

So is every life sacred since it's a few cells the day after conception? I don't like even late first-semester abortions, but a woman knows she's pregnant and can terminate the embryo before it is significantly developed. I'm not saying only the rich can have babies because no doubt Bill Gates can provide 16 jobs and homes for any 2 children he has, and their descendants, but people should be concerned with population control!

In a town that's dying, either McDonald's closes, or they pay unskilled labor $17.50 an hour to attract people to work for them. In over-populated cities, and nations, we are all worth less than minimum wage unless we have a society of teachers, parents, mentors, etc that instruct us how to become more valuable and fend for ourselves. Trust me folks, life is not just peachy after college either. Be careful that you plan your own future families!!!

Little Darth Vaders can be the result!

LTBasker
03-25-2002, 05:24 PM
Tycho, are you just theorizing or what? I haven't got much sleep so it's hard right now to understand these huge posts.... :D Anyways, remember EU can and will be changed by Lucas at will.

I just go by what I heard, Anakin is the chosen one and had the whole Jesus story thing by the will of the force. Now I'm basically athiest but Anakin being the chosen one by the will of the force which is based on all living things is way different than just a "supreme being wanting a child." Not too mention it is sci-fi, anyways, if Shmi wasn't really a virgin when she was impregnated with Anakin then I'm sure there would've been at least one way for her to know if she was or not, and had she not been a virgin and found out that she had gotten raped then instead of saying there is no father whatsoever she probably would've said he was killed before Anakin was born or something.

I dunno, I know Qui-Gon was basically a "Rebel Jedi" but I doubt he would go as far to rape Shmi, plus there are alot of inconsistencies like for instance he couldn't of known for sure that she was able to have a child, or she would be able to keep the child, she would still be alive after all that time, etc. and Count Dooku being Anakin's father, highly doubt that too.

If these theories are being based off of EU, then in Young Jedi Knights, the kid 'Zekk' was very force-sensitive, and yet there was no mention of his parents having any tie-in with the force, that it was just random, so in otherwords the force & midichlorians aren't just gene strands.

Hope that makes sense, not sure if it does. :D

Tycho
03-25-2002, 05:37 PM
The part about Zekk makes sense. His parents were killed on Enth, and since it was post-Empire days, they would not have been trained if they were Force sensitive, but instead would be living on that miserable planet for the sake of hiding. But yes, the Force can show up as a completely random mutation in a child as part of this galaxy's evolution. With Zekk's parents long dead, we'll never know the truth. I just hope he ends up with Jaina Solo - they've been through more together than flyboy Jagged Fel (even if I am a huge fan of Jagged's father).

Anyway, I assume you are referring to someone else who thought Qui-Gon was the father. I definitely do not think he's Anakin's dad.

I don't think he knew about Anakin until they walked into Watto's shop.

Now if Palpatine (who thinks he's a supreme being, LOL) wanted a child...hmmmm. Dooku might share the same delusion of grandeur since he's the one I think broke the code...

He believes the Sith philosophy is superior anyway...

As to the rest, I had a lot to say. Go back and read my post just before this. I could have made a lot of little posts, but I figure it would be best to just get it all out, and basically try and stay "quiet" and let other people debate my theories. I'll butt in again if there's a question, but I'm surely reading everyone's responses.

Finally, get some sleep Basker. I enjoy talking with you - especially when you're well rested. But you are thinking clearly.

Co Jo-Da
03-25-2002, 10:10 PM
I respect everyone's option but I think everyone is waisting their breath on Anakin's Father. He doesn't have one and I can't wait till the end of Episode III and nothing else has been said on this subject. Anakin is a Virgin Birth and that's it...

DeadEye
03-25-2002, 10:15 PM
ok...ya party pooper. :P

jawaboy
03-25-2002, 10:25 PM
Obi-wan: "What does it mean, Master?

Qui-gon: "I'm not sure. There's something about this boy... D'oh, he's my bastard child. Boy, that could have been embarassing!

hango fett
05-18-2002, 03:19 PM
this is kind-of out there, but maybe the reason dooku looked dissapointed when he cut off anikans arm is because he knows that he is his father! somehow, shimi and him might have meet and he told her to tell anyone who asked that there was no father. this could be revealed in EIII but i highly doubt it. i'm probably overthinking this, but oh, well....get your 2 cents i if you wish....

as always,
HF

browndroid
05-18-2002, 03:24 PM
well.... im not sure that would happen, to many unknown fathers:D its a theory..

Dryanta
05-18-2002, 03:25 PM
I guess I don't understand where the idea that Dooku is Anakins father comes from.Shmi said there was no father.Any help here?To me personally the idea of Dooku being Anakin's father is kinda silly.

QLD
05-18-2002, 03:27 PM
Yeah, I mean, I guess he could have erased her memory, but, why bother. Actually, that would come in real handy in college......oh well.

Dexter
05-18-2002, 04:10 PM
UGH. :dead:

That's just stupid. Anakin has no father. Dooku was disappointed with Anakin for the same reason he was disappointed in Obi-Wan--he wanted to be CHALLENGED by a Jedi and he instead severely outclassed them both.

You don't think he's Obi-Wan's father because he was disappointed in Obi-Wan, do you? :p