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El Chuxter
01-23-2007, 06:26 PM
What are your ten favorites?

There are only two rules: It has to actually be based on a previously existing comic (meaning The Incredibles and similar films are ineligible, as they were based on original characters), and it has to be a superhero comic (meaning films like Road to Perdition, Sin City, and Ghost World aren't eligible--though we'll make an exception for the Punisher and similar almost-superhero characters).

1 (tie) Superman Returns
This was, to my knowledge, the first to simply ditch the origin story and go in a totally new direction as compared to what had come before. I mean, we all know who Superman is, what he can do, where he came from. It was great to have a totally original story based on an existing character--and a totally character-driven story. And Singer pulled this one off quite well.

1 (tie) Batman Begins
Sort of the opposite of Superman Returns in many ways, this one took a bit of history that's been explored very little. We all know Bruce's parents were killed, and we all know he became Batman. The period in between those events has rarely been addressed. And, again, just a remarkable film that really does the character justice.

3) X2: X-Men United
One of the great tragedies of film history will, forever more, be that Singer couldn't follow this up with a proper third X-Men film.

4) Spider-Man 2
This one gets past the too-literal translation that slowed the first one down. We get a new twist on Spidey, MJ, and Doc Ock, one that works amazingly well. Too many villains have been made into tragic figures in recent years, but it suits Octavius perfectly.

5) X-Men
Getting into the roots of what makes the X-Men, the X-Men, and stripping away decades of overly complicated continuity, Singer made this the benchmark for the new generation of superhero films. Well, until X2. (Notice that guy's done only three superhero films, and they're three of the five best?)

6) Mystery Men
The original comic, or at least what I've read of it, is moronic. Yet, somehow, it was transformed into this hysterically funny tale of "the other guys." I've seen this one a few dozen times, and I still laugh at it.

7) Hulk
Ang Lee tried to capture the look of a comic book page onscreen (as had been attempted with not-quite effective results in Spawn), and pulled it off. And he rightly focused on the psychological drama, leaving little of the brainless "smash 'em up" action. If not for an amazingly anticlimactic final duel with what I think was supposed to be a bastardization of Absorbing Man, this would easily make the top five.

8) Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
This movie doesn't get the acclaim it deserves. It remains the most faithful adaptation of Batman to the big screen (even Batman Begins doesn't get it this right). But a lot of people didn't want to give an animated version a fair shake, and the other half were offended when a cartoon (gasp!) spent the night with a girl and beat the Joker to a bloody pulp.

9) Batman
Still one of the best. It's not particularly faithful to the source material, but Burton and Keaton made Batman even darker and more brooding than Nolan and Bale did in Batman Begins. This movie finally wiped Adam West's portrayal out of the public consciousness. And how can you not love Nicholson's Joker?

10) Superman
This one's had some stiff competition in recent years, but it's still a classic. Probably the first movie to take on a superhero using a semi-realistic approach. If not for Superman, we probably wouldn't have the other nine on the list.

2-1B
01-23-2007, 08:33 PM
1) X-Men
2) X-Men 2
3) The Punisher
4) Batman Forever (sorry, I like this movie)
5) Blade
6) The Crow

JetsAndHeels
01-23-2007, 09:09 PM
These are my favorites, so please do not shoot the messenger.

1. Superman Returns
2. Superman II
3. Superman: The movie
4. Batman Begins
5. X-2
6. SpiderMan II
7. X-Men
8. The Punisher (2004)
9. SpiderMan

Jedi_Master_Guyute
01-23-2007, 09:24 PM
Chux, many props to you for putting "Hulk" up there as it's one of my favorite films. Ang Lee gave the Hulk some depth and style instead of making him a mindless engine of destruction. A very unappreciated film and i'm really anxious/giddy for the sequel. :thumbsup:

2-1B
01-23-2007, 09:44 PM
I would put The Hulk ahead of Spider-Man. :)

Rocketboy
01-23-2007, 09:46 PM
Alphabetical order because I can't decide between some that I like better than others:

Batman Begins
Blade
The Crow
Daredevil: Director's Cut
Hulk
The Punisher (2004)
Spider-Man 2
Superman Returns
V for Vendetta
X-Men 2

Kidhuman
01-23-2007, 10:29 PM
Batman Begins
Spiderman
Spidey 2
Superman Returns
Superman 2
Superman
Mystery Men
V for Vendetta
Sin City
Batman (Keaton/Nicholson)

Droid
01-23-2007, 10:52 PM
1. Superman: The Movie
2. Superman II
3. Batman

El Chuxter
01-23-2007, 10:54 PM
Hmmm... I didn't consider V for Vendetta or Sin City to be "superhero" films. I suppose they can be. That could rearrange my list, though. :)

Qui-Long Gone
01-23-2007, 11:25 PM
I like Rocketboy's approach....how do you list them?

1. Superman (**actually I think there is only a first and the rest owe thanks to it; therefore, they can be in my top ten list in no particular order....think of it as 9-way tie for second)

Batman (with a nod to the potential of Burton's second Batman) and Batman Begins (thank you Nolan....thank you)
and Batman:Mask of the Phantasm (thanks Chuxter, you're dead on)

Hellboy (the film I thought Hulk could have been...simpler and even more character driven....I know, I know, Lee gave the film heart and Hulk was way UNDER RATED, but I felt it missed a lot of opportunities....or maybe CGI characters were ruined for me when Jar Jar $h@@ all over holy the Star Wars saga...then again Jackson reclaimed it with Golum....shoot, I'm so conflicted here...)

Daredevil (damn that Affleck, but he was steller as a cold-hearted blind ninja)

X2 (with a nod to moments in X1) and V for Vendetta

Spiderman II (although I actually hated this film at first, then I grew up and realized it's really good)

Conan the Barbarian (I think you had to be a kid in the 80s to appreciate this film)....

Films NOT on my list:
Superman Returns (sorry demi-god Singer...see X2 above...but make a film about Superman not Reeve....God rest his worthy soul), any Schumacher Batman, X3 (don't get me started..."re-kill" Jean Grey, what the f@## Ratner, stick with Rush Hours, they're golden), (un)Fantastic 4, Judge Dread, Flash Gordon (actually I love this film in a B-movie, Mystery Science Theatre 3k, trainwrech-that-you-can't-look-away-from kind of way), The League of Extordinary Gentle Sh##, and Spawn!!!!

Films that cheated to make my backup list:
Unbreakable (midlife crisis Superman? Genius)
The Matrix (w/o part 2 and 3, pretend the comics were first if you understand how the brothers wrote the screenplay)
Clerks (actually just Kevin Smith)
Aliens and the first Predator (get the time warp idea of film flipped with comic)....

...and of course, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker (I'm serius, the Joker at his absolute most evil!!!)

General_Grievous
01-24-2007, 10:47 AM
Time to shake things up a bit.

10. X-Men
The movie that kicked off the new slew of superhero movies. Pretty good, but looking back on it, it's just a drawn out lead in to a greater sequel.

9. X-Men: The Last Stand
What? Huh? No, you're not imagining it. I've really grown to appreciate this movie on DVD, and the good outweighs the bad in this. More mutants are what we really wanted to see, and we got it.

8. Superman
The granddaddy of superhero movies. Great performance from Christopher Reeve. It was a great origin story.

7. Superman II
"KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!" Need I say more?

6. Batman
I still love this movie. Jack Nicholson made for a great Joker. Michael Keaton wasn't too bad as Batman, either.

5. Superman Returns
Great movie, even though it sometimes has a slow pace. I just wish the climax was better than just Superman tossing a rock into space. Still, it's probably the best Superman movie out there.

4. Batman Begins
Great movie, sure. Great cast (except for Katie Holmes). Good origin story. Incredible ending. Definitely the best DC movie, but not the best superhero movie.

3. Spider-Man
Say what you will about the Power Ranger Goblin, but Willem Dafoe was at the top of his game. This is a movie I can still watch today for the 100th time and not be bored.

2. Spider-Man 2
Great sequel, great villain. If this was twice as good as the first, imagine what Spider-Man 3 will be like.

1. X2: X-Men United
In my mind, this is still the best superhero movie out there. Ian McKellen owned the movie as Magneto, and it was great to see Wolverine go berserk on people. Plus you can't forget that awesome ending. It's "The Empire Strikes Back" of superhero movies.

stillakid
01-24-2007, 11:23 AM
The best "comic book" movie that wasn't even a real comic book was Darkman. :thumbsup:

Rocketboy
01-24-2007, 12:15 PM
and it has to be a superhero comic (meaning films like Road to Perdition, Sin City, and Ghost World aren't eligible--though we'll make an exception for the Punisher and similar almost-superhero characters).

Hmmm... I didn't consider V for Vendetta or Sin City to be "superhero" films. I suppose they can be. That could rearrange my list, though. :)Sin City or not?
Make up yer damn mind kid, because I might need to revise my list!
While he's not the classic style of superhero, I chose V for Vendetta because, much like The Punisher, it features a non-superpowered man in a cosutme fighting what he believes to be the forces of evil.

Ji'dai
01-24-2007, 03:25 PM
I liked the X-Men trilogy and would probably put those movies at the top of my list. The second one was an absolute blast and I enjoyed the third one almost as much.

Superman Returns was very refreshing without the obligatory origin story bogging it down.

I had no idea what Hellboy was when I first saw Ron Perlman's ugly mug gracing entertainment mags advertising the movie at newstands. Absolutely loved the movie and still haven't read the comics. I'll get to 'em eventually.

I actually liked Blade 2 more than the other two movies in the trilogy. I thought it rocked.

I didn't care for The Shadow when I first saw it in theatres, but it's grown on me since then. I didn't enjoy Batman Begins because I thought it was too similar in plot to The Shadow.

The Christopher Reeve Superman movies were my favorites as kid. I watched I and II again recently and thought they've held up pretty well, though I cringed at some of the 'flying' F/X. I really enjoyed Tim Burton's Batman back in the day, but I'm not such a big fan of the movie today.

JediTricks
01-24-2007, 10:28 PM
Batman Begins
Spider-Man
V for Vendetta
Blade

Spider-Man 2
X-men
X2
The Shadow
Batman (1989) The last one there has sunk fast on my list, it's a fun movie and I loved it for a long time, but it's not entirely true to the character and spawned 3 awful turd sequels. I can't think of 1 other superhero movie that I'd put on my list, but I'd put The Flash tv show on there if I could.

I'm counting V for Vendetta because V's vaguely a superhero, at least somewhat similar to Batman, V even has heightened strength and agility due to the experiments performed on him.



I like Rocketboy's approach....how do you list them?By how much I liked them.



Time to shake things up a bit.
10. X-Men
The movie that kicked off the new slew of superhero movies. Pretty good, but looking back on it, it's just a drawn out lead in to a greater sequel.I dislike when folks say X-men lead the current superhero trend, IMO it is 1998's Blade that really re-trended it into darker, more violent fare - look at the X-men's black leather costumes, before the Matrix it was Blade. And Blade was the first one to go straight for the R-rating, forget the kiddies, we're out for blood!



8. Superman
The granddaddy of superhero movies. Great performance from Christopher Reeve. It was a great origin story.Bah! 1980's Superman owes at least a little something to 1966's "Batman" (the theatrical movie spun off from the TV series), that was the granddaddy of superhero movies.


4. Batman Begins
Great movie, sure. Great cast (except for Katie Holmes). Good origin story. Incredible ending. Definitely the best DC movie, but not the best superhero movie.I can totally agree on that Katie Holmes thing!



The best "comic book" movie that wasn't even a real comic book was Darkman. :thumbsup:Darkman only exists because Sam Raimi wasn't allowed to make The Shadow. :p I should probably watch it again, I really hated it back when it came out and never saw why everybody was so in love with it.

Rocketboy
01-25-2007, 01:22 AM
I dislike when folks say X-men lead the current superhero trend, IMO it is 1998's Blade that really re-trended it into darker, more violent fare - look at the X-men's black leather costumes, before the Matrix it was Blade. Definitely. Blade kicked it all off. It was an odd choice to restart the Marvel movies (maybe because people wouldn't expect too much), but it worked well.

And Blade was the first one to go straight for the R-rating, forget the kiddies, we're out for blood!There was no way they could make a vampire movie with PG-13 rating and expect it to be watchable or profitable.

El Chuxter
01-25-2007, 11:38 AM
Spawn was supposed to be rated R, but they cut back, so I understand.

General_Grievous
01-25-2007, 12:14 PM
I dislike when folks say X-men lead the current superhero trend, IMO it is 1998's Blade that really re-trended it into darker, more violent fare - look at the X-men's black leather costumes, before the Matrix it was Blade. And Blade was the first one to go straight for the R-rating, forget the kiddies, we're out for blood!



Blade's Domestic Gross: $70 Million
X-Men's Domestic Gross: $157.2 Million

The Marvel movies didn't really kick in until producers saw that the profit from X-Men hit the triple digits. I don't think Blade was really intended to be a huge blockbuster, because, let's face it: Blade is a B-list superhero compared to the big guns like X-Men and Spider-Man. Blade's gross was very good, since it made back all of its budget and then some, but since X-Men was one of the top-grossing films of 2000, they really started snatching up every superhero property. Spider-Man, Daredevil, Hulk, etc.

darthvyn
01-25-2007, 02:21 PM
Darkman only exists because Sam Raimi wasn't allowed to make The Shadow. :p I should probably watch it again, I really hated it back when it came out and never saw why everybody was so in love with it.

interesting tidbit, now that he IS doing a "the shadow" movie! (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ia4732eb6ae7c14457d93583ba2d2c1b3)



Blade's Domestic Gross: $70 Million
X-Men's Domestic Gross: $157.2 Million

The Marvel movies didn't really kick in until producers saw that the profit from X-Men hit the triple digits. I don't think Blade was really intended to be a huge blockbuster, because, let's face it: Blade is a B-list superhero compared to the big guns like X-Men and Spider-Man. Blade's gross was very good, since it made back all of its budget and then some, but since X-Men was one of the top-grossing films of 2000, they really started snatching up every superhero property. Spider-Man, Daredevil, Hulk, etc.

no one would've touched x-men or spider-man or anything else if it wasn't for blade. they were able to make a blade movie BECAUSE he's a b-list character - that way there's not a lot of rabid fans crying about how they made him different from the comic book. but by showing studios what you can do with the character, it paved the way for the current boom in superhero flicks.

El Chuxter
01-25-2007, 02:26 PM
Shoot, by that logic, regardless of how poorly it holds up, Spawn deserves a lot more credit for the current crop of good superhero movies than it gets.

Qui-Long Gone
01-25-2007, 03:16 PM
Definitely. Blade kicked it all off.

I think this comment and JT's (someone I usually agree with) sense of history (that the 60s Batman movie is the "granddady") proves everyone on this post is under 35....

1. Blade is 10 years removed from Burton's Batman...the source of all things dark in modern Superhero films....Blade is a poor man's Batman....

2. And again, Flash Gordon (cira. 1936) is the granddady, NOT Batman...that film and the other popular movie serials like Buck Rogers and radio programs like the Shadow are the true grandparents of what we have today....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Gordon#Films

Kidhuman
01-25-2007, 03:28 PM
Shoot, by that logic, regardless of how poorly it holds up, Spawn deserves a lot more credit for the current crop of good superhero movies than it gets.

I happen to like Spawn. Johnny L was awesome in the movie.

JON9000
01-25-2007, 03:34 PM
10. Everything above 9 sucks.

9. Batman Returns: Lots of interesting sights here.

8. Spiderman 2: a little bloated, but just good enough.

7. X-men: A very tight story.

6. Flash Gordon: This movie will forever be my guilty pleasure, with its art deco sets, lunk-headed hero, incredibly super-hot princess, Vultan, and immortal Queen soundtrack.

5. X-Men 2: United: Excellent action sequences balanced by relevant if heavy handed social commentary.

4. Batman: Nicholson as the Joker and an excellent visual style make up for the fact that Batman has relatively little to do.

3. Superman II: Reeve and Kidder were a great pair, and who says villains need to be complex? KNEEL!

2. Spiderman: another example of excellent casting and probably the best "discovering powers" sequence ever.

1. Superman: The Movie- I don't know anybody who doesn't like this film. It's just a pleasure to watch.

El Chuxter
01-25-2007, 03:36 PM
Spawn was great the first time, but it doesn't hold up as well.

As for Flash Gordon, those serials (and pulps) were a major influence on comic books. But Flash Gordon, Zorro, the Shadow, Doc Savage, the Phantom, etc, have never been comic book characters for more than a few issues at a time. They're immensely popular characters, and their influence on comic book superheroes cannot be understated. But they've never met with success in comic book form. Even the Spirit, Will Eisner's crowning achievement of comics sequential arts, was only successful in the newspaper.

Rocketboy
01-25-2007, 04:14 PM
1. Blade is 10 years removed from Burton's Batman...the source of all things dark in modern Superhero films....Blade is a poor man's Batman....I meant that Blade kicked off the modern/current superhero trend. IIRC, nearly every year since Blade was released there has been a comic book/superhero movie (the majority of them being Marvel).
When Batman was released in 89, there were a bunch of bad superhero movies released, most of which are mostly forgotten.

Qui-Long Gone
01-26-2007, 02:00 PM
I meant that Blade kicked off the modern/current superhero trend. IIRC, nearly every year since Blade was released there has been a comic book/superhero movie (the majority of them being Marvel).
When Batman was released in 89, there were a bunch of bad superhero movies released, most of which are mostly forgotten.


Good points...

JediTricks
01-28-2007, 05:40 AM
Definitely. Blade kicked it all off. It was an odd choice to restart the Marvel movies (maybe because people wouldn't expect too much), but it worked well.They didn't intend it to restart a franchise for Marvel, it was mainly a personal vision from David Goyer. The R-rating basically assured they could write it off, but the low expectations meant the vision behind it was closer to the finished product.


There was no way they could make a vampire movie with PG-13 rating and expect it to be watchable or profitable.And yet sadly they'll keep trying. :ermm:



Spawn was supposed to be rated R, but they cut back, so I understand.Yup, and it turned out awful for it. They cut out so much of Clown's material that he fell totally flat, absolute failure IMO.



Blade's Domestic Gross: $70 Million
X-Men's Domestic Gross: $157.2 Million

The Marvel movies didn't really kick in until producers saw that the profit from X-Men hit the triple digits. I don't think Blade was really intended to be a huge blockbuster, because, let's face it: Blade is a B-list superhero compared to the big guns like X-Men and Spider-Man. Blade's gross was very good, since it made back all of its budget and then some, but since X-Men was one of the top-grossing films of 2000, they really started snatching up every superhero property. Spider-Man, Daredevil, Hulk, etc.An R-rated movie making that much is generally considered astonishing, moreso when it gets minimal marketing the way Blade did, not to mention a film released in late summer making anything at all. And because Blade was a lesser-known character, the licensing costs were much lower which affects the net take. And right after Blade took off studios started pounding down their doors to license franchises. Before Blade, studios weren't willing to risk $75 mil on a movie like X-men.



interesting tidbit, now that he IS doing a "the shadow" movie! (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ia4732eb6ae7c14457d93583ba2d2c1b3)See? All a guy has to do is believe in himself... and make Sony a billion bucks. :p Raimi also wanted to do a Batman movie which led him to make Darkman, but I doubt Raimi will ever get to do that.




Shoot, by that logic, regardless of how poorly it holds up, Spawn deserves a lot more credit for the current crop of good superhero movies than it gets.If it had been at all successful, perhaps, but Spawn was poorly receieved and cost $40 mil plus marketing while only eventually making $54 mil total.



1. Blade is 10 years removed from Burton's Batman...the source of all things dark in modern Superhero films....Blade is a poor man's Batman....I ditched the last day of school to be in the extensively long line for the first day of Batman at the Mann Westwood theater, it's not something easily forgotten. Batman was an awesome film, but the only thing it kickstarted as a "source" was the first The Punisher (runup anyway), The Shadow and The Phantom. Batman might have been dark, but the sequels (including the first one) instantly soured studios' opinion of the superhero concept, and while it kickstarted PreProduction on a lot of projects, all of them fell apart by the end of the '90s (including the $50 mil WB spent on rebooting the Superman franchise).


2. And again, Flash Gordon (cira. 1936) is the granddady, NOT Batman...that film and the other popular movie serials like Buck Rogers and radio programs like the Shadow are the true grandparents of what we have today....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Gordon#Films
Flash Gordon is not a superhero, he's just a football player in space. Doc Savage is more a genesis for Superman, Batman, and their ilk than Flash. Anyway, we were talking about the immediate genesis of current comic book films.



1. Superman: The Movie- I don't know anybody who doesn't like this film. It's just a pleasure to watch.First, yes you do, you know me. :p

Second, what, no Batman Begins?

JetsAndHeels
01-28-2007, 11:35 PM
Why don't you like the first Superman movie?

Qui-Long Gone
01-28-2007, 11:52 PM
Flash Gordon is not a superhero, he's just a football player in space. Doc Savage is more a genesis for Superman, Batman, and their ilk than Flash. Anyway, we were talking about the immediate genesis of current comic book films.



1. Football player in space? You mean to tell me there's LESS crazier "superheroes?" :lipsrsealed: And don't say you mean doesn't have superpowers, because the Punisher and Batman keep making everyone's list.....

2. Immediate genesis? ummm...then how does the 60s Batman film work it's way into the history of "current" comic book films? Maybe then we should just start with the first Superman movie....since it was the first to take the superhero "seriously?"

JediTricks
01-29-2007, 10:23 PM
Hey, I thought of another reason why Flash Gordon shouldn't count, he's not in comic books, his original comic adventures are purely from the newspaper comic strip.


Why don't you like the first Superman movie?Too campy at times, Reeve plays Clark too silly (could be the director's fault, I dunno, but it was odd since the '50s TV show took the character and the audience more seriously), Lex Luthor is way way off for my tastes and is too silly to be a buyable villain, and the spinning-around-the-Earth thing doesn't work for me at all - if he could do that, why hasn't he done it to save lots of people before? Oh, right, because he doesn't have a crush on them. I dunno, there's a lot more really, overall it just didn't hold up for me even when I was a kid. (My mom still holds a grudge about Reeve saying that to him comic books were toilet paper during a press conference about the film. :p)



1. Football player in space? You mean to tell me there's LESS crazier "superheroes?" :lipsrsealed: And don't say you mean doesn't have superpowers, because the Punisher and Batman keep making everyone's list.....They fight crime, while Flash Gordon basically has corny pulp adventures in a vaguely-defined attempt to "stop" Ming the Merciless in his power-mad quest to rule the planet Mongo with an iron fist. He's more of a classical type of hero character than a modern "superhero" - you wouldn't call Achilles a superhero, would you? I'd argue Flash Gordon is more a watered-down sci-fi Achilles, or better yet, Odysseus, than a superhero.




2. Immediate genesis? ummm...then how does the 60s Batman film work it's way into the history of "current" comic book films? Maybe then we should just start with the first Superman movie....since it was the first to take the superhero "seriously?"The Batman serials were an attempt to take the material seriously, but they took the "super" out of "superhero" when doing so. I wasn't clear when I said "immediate genesis of current comic book films", what I meant was that the '66 Batman movie was the first one to adapt superhero comic book material to the big screen as a single endeavour without turning the hero into something un-comicbook-like. (the Superman serials being too awful to count) I suppose you could count the 1951 Superman George Reeves movie which was fairly true to the comics superhero and not childish or watered down in theme, but at under an hour long it's basically just the pilot for the TV show.

Rocketboy
01-29-2007, 11:13 PM
I've never liked Superman: The Movie either (all of the Reeve Supes films actually). It's Margot Kidder's fault - I always thought she was so incredibly annoying that she ruins the films.

Qui-Long Gone
01-30-2007, 01:16 AM
you wouldn't call Achilles a superhero, would you? I'd argue Flash Gordon is more a watered-down sci-fi Achilles, or better yet, Odysseus, than a superhero.



I suppose you could count the 1951 Superman George Reeves movie which was fairly true to the comics superhero and not childish or watered down in theme, but at under an hour long it's basically just the pilot for the TV show.

1. (side note: I keep defending Flash not based on my liking him, but in principle.) JT, you're too smart to plumet the greatest literary and narrative intelligence of the entire Western hemisphere by suggesting any (even the slightest) relation between Flash Gordon and Homer (no, not the Simpson)....tell me you're teasing! :sad:

2. Interesting point about film and TV...but on the same note....the Batman movie was indeed based on the TV show, so don't be too shy to reconsider George's Superman, even if it was a really long pilot episode.....

bigbarada
01-30-2007, 03:32 AM
I never really considered any superhero movie to be "good" until recent times. The only ones that were acceptable were Superman 1 and 2.

I remember X-Men being pretty successful, and it was okay; but I was more disappointed than I was happy with it. Although they were finally able to trim Wolverine down to what had made him popular to begin with. The comic books spent over a decade completely ruining the character; so for "fixing" (not literally) the character of Wolverine, X-Men gets a nod from me. Hopefully they abandon the X-Men and just do a Wolverine solo movie.

Too bad they ruined so many others: Jean Grey, Cyclops, Storm, Rogue.

I believe Spider-Man was the real breakthrough superhero movie. As it has the unique distinction of being the only movie to actually out-gross a Star Wars film in it's release year. It out-sold Episode 2 by over $100 million. (The Two Towers also out-grossed Ep2, but most of those ticket sales were actually from 2003)

I had dreamed of a Spider-Man movie since high school (back in the late-80s) and, aside from minor annoyances (like Mary Jane being introduced as Peter's first love interest and Green Goblin's ugly costume), it was pretty awesome. If not for Spider-Man 2, it would be my favorite superhero film.

Spider-Man 2 is, without a doubt, the best superhero movie ever made. It's just perfect, absolutely amazing.

I have yet to watch X-Men 2, Batman Begins or Superman Returns, so I can't really judge those. X-Men 3 was pretty bad, but it gets kudos for killing off Scott Summers.

Fantastic Four was terrible, absolutely terrible. I'm hoping they can save the franchise with this next film.

Anyways, here's my list:

1. Spider-Man 2
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Spider-Man
7. The Hulk - the movie wasn't perfect by any means, but I'll always be sympathetic to the big green doofus.
8. Superman 2
9. Superman
10. X-Men - only for Wolverine, as I mentioned

Positions 2-5 are being saved for future releases. Technology has finally reached a point to allow superhero movies to be done justice. So I'm betting that all the best superhero films are yet to come. But I don't think anything will come close to matching Spider-Man 2 anytime soon.

JediTricks
01-30-2007, 05:24 PM
1. (side note: I keep defending Flash not based on my liking him, but in principle.) JT, you're too smart to plumet the greatest literary and narrative intelligence of the entire Western hemisphere by suggesting any (even the slightest) relation between Flash Gordon and Homer (no, not the Simpson)....tell me you're teasing! :sad:I absolutely am serious, Flash Gordon is a WATERED DOWN version of the characters in Homers' tales - let's have no pretenses about the Iliad and Odyssey being sacrosanct, they're not, they're open to interpretation and comparison the same as any piece of literature - and like all literature, they have their flaws too. Characters are characters, as bad as Flash Gordon is his adventures are not in a vacuum, there are some mild parallels between the characters and between the adventures.


2. Interesting point about film and TV...but on the same note....the Batman movie was indeed based on the TV show, so don't be too shy to reconsider George's Superman, even if it was a really long pilot episode.....Nah, sorry, 58 minutes does not a movie make, even the Ewok movies were an hour and a half. :p Plus, they edited the Superman vs the Mole Men movie into the TV show while the Batman movie was made specificially for the big screen and remained that way.



I have yet to watch X-Men 2, Batman Begins or Superman Returns, so I can't really judge those. X-Men 3 was pretty bad, but it gets kudos for killing off Scott Summers. Wow, those are some pretty major entries you haven't seen yet. As for Cyc being killed in X3, that I felt was more about the actor being in Singer's Superman Returns at the same time than actual writing. Oh, plus Halle Berry wouldn't do the film unless her character had more to do and this was the way to get her to be the leader.

JON9000
01-30-2007, 07:51 PM
Second, what, no Batman Begins?

I can only imagine why people like Batman Begins. I suspect it has to do with the fact that it is played dead serious by serious actors and thereby convinces adults they are taking in serious, adult entertainment instead of childish fantasy. (Which is what superhero comic books are- that's really why I included Flash Gordon).

Donner's Superman, in my view, was just as earnest as BB in its adulation of the source material, but it had the sense to know when to let its hair down a bit. I cared about Clark and Lois, much as I did Peter Parker and MJ in the first Spidey movie.

Batman killed some bad guys and talked here and there to Katie Holmes, who looked like she was sleep-walking. Who were the bad guys again? What was their dastardly plot? Something out of Halloween III: Season of the Witch, right?

bigbarada
01-30-2007, 11:24 PM
Wow, those are some pretty major entries you haven't seen yet. As for Cyc being killed in X3, that I felt was more about the actor being in Singer's Superman Returns at the same time than actual writing. Oh, plus Halle Berry wouldn't do the film unless her character had more to do and this was the way to get her to be the leader.

Batman Begins just looked boring. When it shows up on basic cable, I'll watch it. I've seem bits and pieces of X-Men 2 on cable, but just a few minutes of the end and some of the middle. Someday I'll have to sit down and watch the entire movie from beginning to end.

I have no interest in Superman Returns. They did a terrible job of casting Superman and it seemed they were trying too hard to cast a young Christopher Reeve look-a-like (who I've always thought made a lackluster Superman).

JetsAndHeels
01-30-2007, 11:45 PM
Batman Begins just looked boring.

BB is a very good movie. You are cheating yourself by not watching it!!


I have no interest in Superman Returns. They did a terrible job of casting Superman and it seemed they were trying too hard to cast a young Christopher Reeve look-a-like (who I've always thought made a lackluster Superman).

Watch the movie, then get back to us. :)

Qui-Long Gone
01-30-2007, 11:51 PM
BB is a very good movie. You are cheating yourself by not watching it!!



Watch the movie, then get back to us. :)

I agree on BB, SEE THE FILM....warning, the parts with Katie Holmes are boring....Superman Returns wasn't poorly cast, but I did think the script was week....less Lex with a trite hair-brained plot, more Superman RETURNING.....

Kidhuman
01-31-2007, 07:02 AM
BAtman Beigins surprised the hell out of me. Dont expect Keaton and Nicholson, it is a great movie.

As for Superman returns, I thought it was a tad too long, but all in all a good movie.

El Chuxter
01-31-2007, 10:52 AM
They're easily the two best, bigB. I wouldn't count them out so quickly.

mabudonicus
01-31-2007, 11:41 AM
COUNT IT OUT!!! COUNT IT OUT!!!!!

I am a bit of a Bat-fan, but I swear to this day the only bigscreen film I can even think about watching is Batman : Forever (I'm wearing a helmet so throw whetever you like this way, can't stop the ducks)

I thought Batman Begins was stodgy, ugly to look at, BORING and silly all at the same time, and I went into it thinking it would at LEAST be watchable and maybe kind of fun- turned out, for me at least, it was neither (and it's not like I watched it on any "bad day" or anything, and I didn't pay to see it either so nothing lost except time)

I have kept it quiet but this thread keeps making me want to "come out".. so there I did it, Batman Begins was dull and crappy WHEW :D

Seriously tho, when I got near the end of the film and it turned into spiderman 2 with a guy strapped to a cheesy black hangglider, I actually laughed so hard I missed much of the conclusion :beard: Isobaws& (and to anyone else who didn't enjoy it, did you get that "spidey 2" feeling as well??)

Qui-Long Gone
01-31-2007, 05:16 PM
COUNT IT OUT!!! COUNT IT OUT!!!!!

I am a bit of a Bat-fan, but I swear to this day the only bigscreen film I can even think about watching is Batman : Forever (I'm wearing a helmet so throw whetever you like this way, can't stop the ducks)

I thought Batman Begins was stodgy, ugly to look at, BORING and silly all at the same time, and I went into it thinking it would at LEAST be watchable and maybe kind of fun- turned out, for me at least, it was neither (and it's not like I watched it on any "bad day" or anything, and I didn't pay to see it either so nothing lost except time)

I have kept it quiet but this thread keeps making me want to "come out".. so there I did it, Batman Begins was dull and crappy WHEW :D

Seriously tho, when I got near the end of the film and it turned into spiderman 2 with a guy strapped to a cheesy black hangglider, I actually laughed so hard I missed much of the conclusion :beard: Isobaws& (and to anyone else who didn't enjoy it, did you get that "spidey 2" feeling as well??)


Wait, I just missed everything you said because I heard the words Batman Forever and immediately zoned out......:sad: :sad: :sad:

JON9000
01-31-2007, 05:50 PM
Ahh... 1990's Joel Schumacher films... the man never saw a neon light that didn't give him a crush. Somewhere between the black and tan that was Batman Begins and the Day-glo nightmare that was Batman Forever lies a visual style that won't make me cry.

bigbarada
01-31-2007, 05:52 PM
Ghost Rider's coming out soon. I'm hoping to add that one to my list of great superhero films. :cool:

Now, that's one superhero that would have been absolutely impossible to put in a movie without CG effects. There's no way they could have made this movie in the 80s.

I guess I can rent Batman Begins and Superman Returns just so I can rule them out. :p

It's too bad Heroes doesn't count as a movie, becuase so far it blows everything out of the water.

JediTricks
02-01-2007, 02:02 AM
I am a bit of a Bat-fan, but I swear to this day the only bigscreen film I can even think about watching is Batman : Forever (I'm wearing a helmet so throw whetever you like this way, can't stop the ducks)Wow, I wasn't going to reply to this thread right now because I didn't really have anything to say beyond responding to the Batman Begins comments and felt it would just drag the thread down, then I saw the comment above. Maybe you've been in Canada too long or something, but Batman Forever?!? Oh man, I really don't know how to come to grips with that.

Kidhuman
02-01-2007, 10:47 AM
Maybe you should come to Grins with that JT. :beard:

JetsAndHeels
02-01-2007, 01:07 PM
I am sure alot of us will be adding Spidey 3 to this list come summer.

Qui-Long Gone
02-01-2007, 06:49 PM
I hope.....or we'll come to gripes with that....;)

JediTricks
02-01-2007, 10:18 PM
Maybe you should come to Grins with that JT. :beard:Is that a Kit Fisto ref?

bigbarada
02-03-2007, 03:21 PM
I rented Batman Begins and Superman Returns last night and watched both of them. So, my rankings change a little bit but not much.

Batman Begins: I watched this one last but it was definitely the better of the two. Very intelligently crafted story and well put together,..... but it seemed completely devoid of any sort of emotion. The characters were too stoic and you never got the impression that these were actual human beings. Some of the characters, like Bruce Wayne's father, were very poorly realized. However, cardboard characters are kind of the trademark of the Batman franchise, so it's not a huge detraction from the film.

The entire film does give me the impression that it was written by a comic book geek who is desperately trying to prove to the world that he is not geeky for liking Batman.

Christian Bale did a good job with what he was given in terms of the script (he's my favorite Batman so far), and everyone else seemed to be okay: Liam Neeson did a good job of playing Qui-Gon Jinn yet again, Morgan Freeman did a good job of playing Morgan Freeman and Michael Cane did a great job of playing Michael Cane.

Katie Holmes looked completely overwhelmed by her part and was not in the least bit convincing as a cut-throat prosecuting attorney.

I liked the twist at the end, when it was revealed who was really behind the Arkham Asylum plot, that was really well thought out. And I thought the Scarecrow was intergrated really well into the movie. Very understated yet extremely effective.

Overall, I'd say this is a really good movie and I could place it at #5 on my list. Better than most everything else out there, but nowhere near the emotional resonance of Spider-Man 2. I anxiously look forward to the next Batman film.

Superman Returns: somebody might need to call the police, this movie is almost guilty of slander. Since when does Superman spy on people and have a child out of wedlock? No way, this is NOT Superman and I stand by my belief that this film was terribly miscast.

Not only does this actor completely pull me out of the movie whenever his face shows up on screen, but he never actually acts at any point in the film. It's like he's posing for a magazine cover everytime he shows up on screen. I'm not unreasonable on this, I was skeptical of Tom Welling playing Clark Kent in Smallville, but that actor's sincerity in the part won me over within one episode. After over two hours, this guy from Superman Returns (I don't even care to learn his name) still just looked like a scrawny little nerd pretending to be Superman.

Superman stands for the classic ideals of "Truth, Justice and the American Way." Of course, they removed the "American Way" so they wouldn't offend foreign markets,... it's hard to believe in a movie when the people making it don't even believe in it. His ideals and his morals are considered "old fashioned" but that's really the whole point. They were old fashioned in the 1930s, they're still old fashioned now. There's no need to try to "reinvent" Superman for our modern age.

I did have high hopes for Kevin Spacey playing Lex Luthor, but he brought absolutely nothing new to the character. In fact, this whole movie brought absolutely nothing new to the Superman franchise, I don't think there was a single original idea in the film.

Terrible film, absolutely terrible. If Brian Singer makes any more Superman films, I'm not watching them.

El Chuxter
02-03-2007, 04:09 PM
Since when does Superman spy on people and have a child out of wedlock?

Blame whatshisface that did Superman II and had the "romantic evening" in the Fortress of Solitude, which everyone realized was a horrible mistake after the movie came out. This was just building on that.


Superman stands for the classic ideals of "Truth, Justice and the American Way." Of course, they removed the "American Way" so they wouldn't offend foreign markets

I didn't see it that way at all, but a sort of joke on how incredibly cliched that phrase has become in conjunction with Superman. Sort of along the lines of the "It's a bird?" "No, it's a plane?" "You wanted to see me, Perry?" bit.

Ah well. Sorry you didn't like it, but glad you enjoyed Batman Begins a little.

bigbarada
02-03-2007, 04:38 PM
Blame whatshisface that did Superman II and had the "romantic evening" in the Fortress of Solitude, which everyone realized was a horrible mistake after the movie came out. This was just building on that.



I didn't see it that way at all, but a sort of joke on how incredibly cliched that phrase has become in conjunction with Superman. Sort of along the lines of the "It's a bird?" "No, it's a plane?" "You wanted to see me, Perry?" bit.

Ah well. Sorry you didn't like it, but glad you enjoyed Batman Begins a little.

My parents wouldn't let us watch Superman 2 because of that very scene. I've seen it a few times as an adult, but still see that bedroom scene as a horrible misstep in the Superman franchise. Singer should have just ignored it and not tried to build off of it.

The "it's a bird, it's a plane" joke was actually really funny, I'll credit the movie for that. There were a few tiny little gems in the film, the first one was Clark's dog's frustration at playing fetch with Superman.:D

But all together they just weren't enough to save the film for me.

There are two superheroes who I have I have always been extremely picky about how they are portrayed: Superman and Spider-Man.

Spider-Man did such a good job of defining Peter Parker, that I was able to overlook the annoyances of the Green Goblin and Mary Jane and still enjoy the film. Spider-Man 2 blew me away and is easily the best Spider-Man story I've ever seen.

Superman Returns reminded me of Rocky Balboa (another terrible film), in that it tried too hard to copy and build off a successful 1970s movie. Like someone said earlier in this thread, "cast Superman, not Christopher Reeve."

Batman Begins is in danger of turning me into a Batman fan, which would be a first for any Batman film. Very promising and I will rank it above Spider-Man 1, because I think it is a better origin movie (probably becuase it is uncharted territory for me, I've known Spider-Man's origin for decades now).

JediTricks
02-04-2007, 04:25 AM
it seemed completely devoid of any sort of emotion. The characters were too stoic and you never got the impression that these were actual human beings.I feel differently on that, Alfred's work is mainly cliche for Michael Caine but there are genuine emotions; Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul played by Liam Neeson makes for a good villain with emotional context in his performance; and Bruce shows anger towards Flass, fear when the drug takes him over, anger about what Ra's Al Ghul says about his father, and as Batman he tries to put on airs when around Rachel - not to mention a range of emtions about Rachel when he's Bruce (my favorite being when she's disappointed in him at the hotel when he's faking being a playboy). I think, despite my reservations about the actor, the Bruce Wayne character as played by Christian Bale was very well realized.


Some of the characters, like Bruce Wayne's father, were very poorly realized. However, cardboard characters are kind of the trademark of the Batman franchise, so it's not a huge detraction from the film.I felt like they were trying to force too much "modern emotional caring dad" stuff on the guy, which is ultimately what made him cardboard - but it does make sense that through the eyes of a young boy a father would be seen somewhat 2-dimensional that way (yes, I'm fully aware that's a tad apologistic ;)).


The entire film does give me the impression that it was written by a comic book geek who is desperately trying to prove to the world that he is not geeky for liking Batman.OUCH!!! Poor Goyer! And he's short too, wanna take a shot at him for being 5' 6"? :p Actually, Goyer wrote some non-comic movies like Van Damme's "Death Warrant" and "Demonic Toys" and some other low-rent horror stuff before The Crow 2, the screenplay for Dark City, and then the made-for-TV "Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD" pic starring Hasslehoff. After that, his baby was the Blade saga. Batman Begins was his first mainstream comic movie though, though he's also written some actual comics (but basically he was chosen because he wasn't into the comic structure, although also Goyer's also written a bunch of screenplays based on comics which never got shot, including a Spider-Man movie pre-Raimi that had Venom as the main character).


Liam Neeson did a good job of playing Qui-Gon Jinn yet againEVIL Qui-Gon! And actually, I thought Neeson did a great job distancing his performance in Batman Begins from TPM, in TPM he's sort of wooden and has little nuance or direction for the character, it just comes off limp, while as Ra's Al Ghul he's got a sinister side to the education even at the beginning and he bears fangs in the performance.


Katie Holmes looked completely overwhelmed by her part and was not in the least bit convincing as a cut-throat prosecuting attorney.Good to see we can all agree on that. :D


Overall, I'd say this is a really good movie and I could place it at #5 on my list. Better than most everything else out there, but nowhere near the emotional resonance of Spider-Man 2. I anxiously look forward to the next Batman film.Glad to hear you enjoyed it enough to put it on your list. :cool:



Superman Returns: somebody might need to call the police, this movie is almost guilty of slander. Since when does Superman spy on people and have a child out of wedlock? No way, this is NOT Superman and I stand by my belief that this film was terribly miscast.Haw! Slander, that's a good one. Technically it's libel though (thank you J Jonah Jameson! :D) because it's a moving picture not a directly-spoken claim. I totally agree with you on all those points, especially the miscasting issue (right down to the director and writers).


Not only does this actor completely pull me out of the movie whenever his face shows up on screen, but he never actually acts at any point in the film. It's like he's posing for a magazine cover everytime he shows up on screen. I'm not unreasonable on this, I was skeptical of Tom Welling playing Clark Kent in Smallville, but that actor's sincerity in the part won me over within one episode. After over two hours, this guy from Superman Returns (I don't even care to learn his name) still just looked like a scrawny little nerd pretending to be Superman.THANK YOU!!! I feel the same way and even those who didn't care for the movie often disagree on the Brandon Routh acting thing. I got the feeling Routh had a few scenes where he was trying to show range and just got over-directed, but it's possible that's what Singer wanted or that's how limited Routh really is. Routh sounds like he's emotionally detatched from the character, he's never puffing up his chest and pretending to be Superman or shrinking away and pretending to be Clark Kent, it's like he sounds like his eyes are half-lidded.


I did have high hopes for Kevin Spacey playing Lex Luthor, but he brought absolutely nothing new to the character. In fact, this whole movie brought absolutely nothing new to the Superman franchise, I don't think there was a single original idea in the film.Wow, another one folks usually don't agree with me on, you and your G-Heroes Greedo'tar rock BB!

bigbarada
02-04-2007, 03:54 PM
Wow, another one folks usually don't agree with me on, you and your G-Heroes Greedo'tar rock BB!

:cool: Thanks, I was going to Photoshop a little puff of smoke coming out of his pistol; but that would imply that he shot first.:D

The more I think about Batman Begins, the more I like the movie. It's nice to see a Batman movie that's actually about Batman for once. What's the word on a sequel?

JediTricks
02-06-2007, 08:08 PM
:cool: Thanks, I was going to Photoshop a little puff of smoke coming out of his pistol; but that would imply that he shot first.:D How about a puff of smoke coming out of his chest? :p


The more I think about Batman Begins, the more I like the movie. It's nice to see a Batman movie that's actually about Batman for once.That's a good point, this one is about who Batman is, what makes him tick, his methods and passion, and it's a decent compression of the origin without feeling forced a la 1989's Batman. Batman is a person in Begins rather than just a mysterious man of action.


What's the word on a sequel?I believe it's in preproduction right now almost at the production stage. It's called "The Dark Knight" and seems to pick up where the last one left off, so hunting the Joker. Check out the thread, specifically the last few pages: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=32135