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El Chuxter
01-31-2007, 04:40 PM
How can I put this nicely?

I'm not sure I can.

Are you out of your freaking minds?!?!?

The quality of the sculpts and the paint application has gone straight into the toilet. I'd like to put it politely, but Banshee and Emma make me want to wretch. And they're two of the characters I most wanted from the Legends line.

The figures look cartoony, where they once were realistic, and the one-tone paint doesn't look consistent with what came before.

You've gotten rid of variants, and I thank you for it. (Well, I would, if I didn't decide to drop the line when I saw this last wave.) But it looks like you've introduced shortpacking. I've seen all of these dogs a few dozen times, except for Iron Man. Maybe it's because he sucks the least. I don't know. But it looks to me like he's one per case. Not a good idea, when also using ToyBiz's "Build A Figure" gimmick that requires everyone to get one of every figure.

The packaging has gone noticeably downhill, too. I normally don't care, but with Toybiz, we got a free comic, a free trading card, and often a free diorama, in addition to the individualized card and clamshell. Now, just an individualized card.

And yet, in spite of all this, the price went up? Let me get this straight: a larger company with better distribution resources took over, the sculpts became less detailed, paint washes have been totally abandoned, and the freebies eliminated... and the price went from $6.98-$7.99 to $9.99?

Do you want this line to fail miserably?

I'm not speaking lightly here. In the entire time ToyBiz was making the Marvel Legends, I only passed on Toad and the Young Avengers. I even made sure to get most of the variants. Sure, there were some distribution problems, and variants on top of Build-A-Figure made some characters tougher to find at all, but I never considered quitting a possibility.

Now, I've not only quit, I know of many people who were completists just like me, and who have also quit.

We know you're capable of better. Look at the Star Wars Unleashed, or even GIJoe: Sigma Six. Why can't the Marvel Legends line get the same sort of effort, especially when it's historically been one of the best produced lines available?

Shoot, even the prototypes of these figures you showed at Comic-Con last year looked good, so even better plastics and paint washes could've saved this otherwise loser wave.

plasticfetish
01-31-2007, 04:56 PM
I wouldn't call myself a completists by a long shot, but aside from Star Wars, the Marvel Legends line was probably my favorite "found at mass retail" thing to collect. One of the biggest "impulse buy" lines out there for me.

I don't mind the packaging, and I don't care that we've lost the extras, and honestly... the price hike wouldn't even hurt so bad if (as Chux mentioned) they didn't look worse.

I've yet to buy or open and handle one of the new figures, so I can't comment on the build quality, but none of this first wave really encouraged me to give them (or one) a chance, so...

(If I see Iron Man again, I may buy it for my son.)

DarthBrandon
01-31-2007, 06:56 PM
I quit collecting these as soon as I seen the crap on the shelves, nothing looked good at all (Emma Man Face) (Banshee I just puked look) not even the Iron Man (would have rather had Series 8 Iron Man rehashed). This line was doomed as soon as Hasblow took over it. They do not care about the quality & reputation that Marvel Legends had with Toy Biz. This is just another case of crank them out & make as much money as we can while it lasts. The only reason Hasblow took over said line (Toybiz) was that they were getting tired of hearing how great it was compaired to anything they (Hasbro) did. Now they can bring it down to their sub-par level, with fewer new sculpts (this costs them too much money to make anything new excuse) lousy paint jobs & crappy packaging. Just look at the articulation on these things (gone down quite a few notches), no wonder Hasblow wanted the line (give them less & charge them more B.S. :mad:

I've pretty much had it with Hasblow & after a few more S.W. figures this year I'm quitting that line as well, you can only take so many Lukes & Vaders along with re-hashed/re-painted vehicles. With no new sculpted vehicles that we want in site (AT-TE, Cloud Car & various other possibles) it's pretty much pointless to keep collecting with nothing to put them in.:sad: I think I'll invest in creating my own vehicles with my son helping me out.

Bacta Beast
01-31-2007, 08:44 PM
Are you out of your freaking minds?!?!?

And yet, in spite of all this, the price went up? Let me get this straight: a larger company with better distribution resources took over, the sculpts became less detailed, paint washes have been totally abandoned, and the freebies eliminated... and the price went from $6.98-$7.99 to $9.99?

Abso-freekin'-lutely right!!!! Amen!!!! Lower the price Hasblo!!! and while you're at it, you can bring the price on SW figures down a bit also! The gas prices have been going down quite a bit. Ease up on us. We'll buy more. I promise!

Oh and another thing, look into re-releasine all the stuff that Toy-Biz crammed out at the end of the Christmas season. That stuff was ridiculously hard to find!! All Fantastic Four and X-Men variants. The Mojo and Modok Variants. Even the House of M gift pack was way to hard to find!

JediTricks
02-01-2007, 02:01 AM
I think these look shockingly poor compared to Toy Biz's Marvel Legends figures, not just big stuff like paint and sculpting, but also joint designs and even the rivets holding parts together look particularly low-grade. And all this comes with a charming price increase? This was a bad idea across the board.

Bacta Beast
02-01-2007, 05:15 AM
I think these look shockingly poor compared to Toy Biz's Marvel Legends figures, not just big stuff like paint and sculpting, but also joint designs and even the rivets holding parts together look particularly low-grade. And all this comes with a charming price increase? This was a bad idea across the board.

And that really sucks as Toy Biz's joints weren't very hot to start out with! I don't know how many time I've had those things "pop" out or even bust right out of the package! Even with the House of M set. I gave it to my son as a Christmas gift and I broke one of the "Torch"'s wings myself after he brought it to me asking fr help. So the thought of Hasbro's joints being poorer quality (while more expensive) really reeks!

I wish we had a forum like the SW Q&A sessions for the ML line!

Phantom-like Menace
02-01-2007, 07:21 AM
From what I understand the only thing we can really pin on Hasbro is the articulation, and the paint.

These sculpts, for all the claims that they are subpar to the Toybiz efforts, were sculpted by Toy Biz and simply inherited by Hasbro. As far as I understand, no single sculpt whatsoever has been sculpted by anyone who didn't work for Toy Biz. Why, most importantly, would Emma's looking unattractive surprise anyone who has taken a look at nine out of ten of ML's fugly female sculpts? Female MLs, with few exceptions look like trannies. Up until this point we've accepted this as par but now it horribly offends.

As far as the comic books go, Toy Biz reps have stated numerous times that they too were planning to get rid of the comics because they were too expensive, and from what I've read the clamshell packaging would have been eliminated since it was largely there to protect the comic.

In terms of cost, it was a given that Hasbro would raise the price. The most important cosideration is that they are having to recoup licensing costs, which Toy Biz avoided by being part of the Marvel Company. Second, Hasbro is using better plastic. I'm terrified that some of my Toy Biz MLs are going to break when I attempt to move their joints, but I don't have that fear with Emma and Banshee. If you want to see what Hasbro does cost-wise when they don't have to pay licensing fees, check out the multi-packs of G.I. Joes at TRU.

As far as articulation goes, this is one area Hasbro seems to have made a conscious decision to change, and even that isn't a change across the board. Emma doesn't have the ML-style elbow joints nor does she have finger articulation but Iron Spider-Man has both, and word is that Hasbro will make decisions about which style of articulation to use on a case-by-case basis.

By the time I get to paint I find myself shrugging. I'd trade the simple black paintwash for better plastic anytime. I can throw a paintwash on a figure pretty easily, certainly far more easily than I can make better plastic out of poor plastic.

A lot of people also find Hasbro's distribution a drastic improvement over that of Toy Biz (which in point of fact had no distribution), and give Hasbro high marks in quality control. So I'm not sure how, "Hasbro, we would appreciate consistent high articulation and better paint application just as we appreciate the those things you have imrpoved" becomes a completely exaggerated lament of the death of a line of toys.

And for the record, Hasbro has not gotten rid of variants. Their second line of Legends has at least one variant, a Dark Phoenix variant.

And almost completely off-topic: I see there is speculation that Hasbro's fourth series will have Firestar and Sunfire! My fanboy side just got happier with Hasbro.

jedi master sal
02-01-2007, 07:30 AM
I have to completely agree with all the complaints here. I only casually collect this line, but my fianceť is a huge collector of it. We had a hell of a time with the last two Toy Biz waves, but were still in it.

This first wave from Hasbro was more than disappointing. I still haven't found Iron Man, so I've got an "extremities" Annihilation figure with no torso, great...and it's not due to not looking. EVERY time I look for SW stuff, I also look for Marvel Legends stuff for both my fianceť and myself.

What a joke most of these figures were in this line. She is a BIG X-Men fan as was so sorely disappointed with teh Banshee figure, that when I gave it to her, she was extremely tempted to take it back. But for the build a figure parts, it would have been. That huge neck and pale white washed skin were horrid. I thought the Emma Frost figure looked like Nicole KidMAN. Hercules looks like freakin' Charleton Heston in his early days and the skin tone on him is inconsistent throughout the figure. Beast was close, but the actual "skin" portion of the figure should have been a bit lighter in our opinion. From a distance the figure just completely blends in with itself. That's NOT a good thing.

I think we've come to the decision to stop at the first wave of Hasbro Marvel figs. We'll have to go back and get the variants from the last two Toy Biz waves and ten call this line quits. The quality is that sub ar. And then to take all the extras away and have the nerve to charge more? Ridiculous. And as someone else mentioned here, Hasbro, you are a MUCH bigger company with better distribution and manufacturing capabilities. In NO way should these figures climb up by $2-3 more, especially given the lack of extras.

Why?

I'll bet their thinking is that, well, SW figs are $7. So how can they justify a much bigger figure on costing the same or even $8? That's not justified at all though in our eyes. It's actally the reverse. SW figures shouldn't cost $7! Heck, not even $6, but I'd sttel for that. Then a cost of $8 for Marvel Legends figures wouldn't look bad, providing you still put in some extras. But NO WAY for $10. You lost two customers in us for that line. Thanks. It was the last line of toys she collected and you killed it for her.

To make it worse, now she's starting to question my collecting. Something I DO NOT need.

Bacta Beast
02-01-2007, 04:33 PM
If Licensing is the only reason for the price increase, then why are the Spider-Man figures still $7.99. If the MLs were $8.99 (a dollar more to cover the "build-a-figure") I wouldn't complain so much. But this increase is bull crap! And if downgrading that ugly new packaging to something more practical and less obtrusive helps to cut back on cost, than do it Hasbro!!

The only reason for Hasbro to raise the price on the ML line is because they're greedy, and they know completist will pay it.
The plastic may be better, I'll give you that PLM. However, they make up for it by taking away articulation (have you seen pics of the SM3 "Green Goblin" and the SM Classics Kraven? Horrid), comics and cheap paint jobs.
Yes, alot of what ToyBiz did made me mad, especially variants and chase figures. But that doesn't get Hasbro off the hook with fans for make the same and new, worse mistakes.
I could care less about the comic personally. I don't mind missing that. I don't think the sculpt of Emma is great, but I hate her anyway and I only bought her to complete Annihilus. And it's hard to be any worse than TB's Scarlet Witch (mind you the initial picture of the prototype were great).
I would also prefer to have Hasbro apply the extra paint rather than doing it myself due to it being more professional, and long lasting. Also it makes it look like the company actually cares about how their product looks.
I definatley don't like them cutting back on the articulation. The hands don't bother me too much as I thought that on some of the TB sculpt they made the knuckle way to big and the fingers way too small, and futhermore they didn't hold accessories very well. But the pictures of the new Spider-Man stuff coming out really suck! However it's not the first time I passed on ML figure for the same reason (Hydroman, Electro and Shocker). Incidentally, I love the paint job on the new 2099 Spidey! I'd love to buy it if they would have just put it on a more articulated body.
Hasbro has access to more widespread distribution. They're bigger and they've been doing it longer. They should be able to do it better, without making adding more mistakes. It's simple Hasbro! Lower the price. Ease up on the packaging. Bring back the paint and the articulation. And listen to the fans that are still complaining about not being able to find variants and chase figure and rerelease them in a greater quantity! Do this and the line will sell even better.

JediTricks
02-01-2007, 09:05 PM
From what I understand the only thing we can really pin on Hasbro is the articulation, and the paint.

These sculpts, for all the claims that they are subpar to the Toybiz efforts, were sculpted by Toy Biz and simply inherited by Hasbro.I believe that's true, but the plastics Hasbro use also change the dynamics of what the mold produces, what may be an accurate face with one kind of material can end up looking cartoony in another. Hasbro tends to use a kid-friendly bendier plastic that is sometimes slightly translucent and nearly always a little softer in the details than the initial hardcopies.


Cost increases may not be about greed but about Hasbro's factories' inability to match the cost-effective manufacturing behavior of Toy Biz's factories. Still, a reduction in paint apps, a cheaper-looking manufacturing process, cheaper-looking packaging, and that comes with a $2 price increase? That's a big no-no.

Phantom-like Menace
02-01-2007, 11:55 PM
The price of the Spider-Man Origins is a little misleading. With an exception or two, they're all repaints or at least figures that were going to be put out long ago but never made it to shelves. At worst you could say Hasbro is throwing them out as cheap investments to milk us for money. One could look at the glass as being half full and say Hasbro is cutting us a break on the cost there. Plus, if Origins were the same price as Marvel Legends are now, we'd be complaining that we're supposed to pay the same amount for a line of almost excusively repaints. Hasbro can't win in either scenario.


I believe that's true, but the plastics Hasbro use also change the dynamics of what the mold produces, what may be an accurate face with one kind of material can end up looking cartoony in another. Hasbro tends to use a kid-friendly bendier plastic that is sometimes slightly translucent and nearly always a little softer in the details than the initial hardcopies.

Hmm. That's completely outside of anything I know anything about, so I can only allow that you may be right. Well played, sir.;)

Bacta Beast
02-02-2007, 05:15 AM
Cost increases may not be about greed but about Hasbro's factories' inability to match the cost-effective manufacturing behavior of Toy Biz's factories.

I don't buy that argument. C'mon, Hasbro's been at this at lot longer. They know all the tricks of the trade. Also, they have alot of the ToyBiz folks still working on the line. Surely they know something about the production. No, It's clear to me that they think they've got gold on their hands and think they can get away with the price hike. Again I point to the Spider-Man line. They're still keeping the price down there. There's no reason they can't lower the ML line at least a buck!

DarthBrandon
02-02-2007, 07:20 AM
I don't buy that argument. C'mon, Hasbro's been at this at lot longer. They know all the tricks of the trade. Also, they have alot of the ToyBiz folks still working on the line. Surely they know something about the production. No, It's clear to me that they think they've got gold on their hands and think they can get away with the price hike. Again I point to the Spider-Man line. They're still keeping the price down there. There's no reason they can't lower the ML line at least a buck!


Well until the price comes down & the quality goes back up to where Toybiz was I'm not buying & so are a lot of other collectors I know.

JediTricks
02-02-2007, 05:14 PM
I don't buy that argument. C'mon, Hasbro's been at this at lot longer. They know all the tricks of the trade. Also, they have alot of the ToyBiz folks still working on the line. Surely they know something about the production. How long they've been at it has little to do with the situation, they may be locked into a factory that can do something they like really well but something else they need done less well. They actually use multiple factories to boot, so 1 factory might be better at it than another.

The Toy Biz folks they have are from Toy Biz US, which is basically just the toy arm of Marvel (Marvel owns Toy Biz US, while Toy Biz separated off to become their own company and just made the toys for Toy Biz - confused?), they only do the sculpting and maybe prelim tooling, I believe they don't have anything to do with manufacturing.


No, It's clear to me that they think they've got gold on their hands and think they can get away with the price hike. Again I point to the Spider-Man line. They're still keeping the price down there. There's no reason they can't lower the ML line at least a buck!They're keeping the quality down there too. :p Old molds, bad paint apps, cheap manufacturing, BUT that line has kid-factor so Hasbro knows they will get more sales than ML so it mitigates the cost factors somewhat.

I do think they're overcharging on the ML, but I am just saying that I don't believe it must be only pure greed, it may have other possible factors.

Bacta Beast
02-02-2007, 06:30 PM
Plus, if Origins were the same price as Marvel Legends are now, we'd be complaining that we're supposed to pay the same amount for a line of almost excusively repaints. Hasbro can't win in either scenario.


You're missing the point. If they can put out the Origins line at a lower price point point, they can do the same with the MLs. They're both under the same license. So licensing isn't justification for the price hike.

To be certain there may be other reasons for a price hike (other than good old fashion greed) and hey, why make them if you're not making money. But I think everyone agrees that this price is too high and needs to come down.


Well until the price comes down & the quality goes back up to where Toybiz was I'm not buying & so are a lot of other collectors I know.

The only thing is, the quality of the TB line wasn't very high. I was constantly having problems with brand new figures right out of the package! And the variant practice was a major annoyance.

However, considering what they've taken away, the Hasbro shouldn't be anymore money! I think it's great if enough people boycott the line to send a message to Hasbro. I really wish we could direct our greviences to them directly through a forum like the one we have for the SW line.


How long they've been at it has little to do with the situation

Sure it does.


they may be locked into a factory that can do something they like really well but something else they need done less well. They actually use multiple factories to boot, so 1 factory might be better at it than another.

I'm sure Hasbro, with all their buying power, isn't "locked" into anything with anybody. They can do what they want. It's a matter of if they care or not.


The Toy Biz folks they have are from Toy Biz US, which is basically just the toy arm of Marvel (Marvel owns Toy Biz US, while Toy Biz separated off to become their own company and just made the toys for Toy Biz - confused?), they only do the sculpting and maybe prelim tooling, I believe they don't have anything to do with manufacturing.

No but I'll bet you that they're familar with the choice of plastics and production secrets of the ToyBiz line.


They're keeping the quality down there too. :p Old molds, bad paint apps, cheap manufacturing, BUT that line has kid-factor so Hasbro knows they will get more sales than ML so it mitigates the cost factors somewhat.

My point isn't that the quality of the SM line is high, it's that the price is lower. If they can keep one down, they can do the other likewise.

El Chuxter
02-02-2007, 10:26 PM
The Spider-Man Classics line costs $2 less.

They may be old molds, true. But Spidey 2099 has been the only Hasbro-produced Marvel figure that's tempting. And Iron Spidey would be, if I didn't think the costume sucked worse than the Spider-Clone storyline.

So the two best, and the only two I might even consider buying, are a third-rate future character (true, he was written by Peter David and drawn by a string of great artists, including Wildman, and was the best of the 2099 characters... but it was still stupid 2099) and a moronic Iron Man with a different mask and claws. Not two X-Men I've dreamed about being made for years, the only decent character from X3, and a BAF of one of the major nasty villains?

Something's wrong here.

Phantom-like Menace
02-02-2007, 11:09 PM
You're missing the point. If they can put out the Origins line at a lower price point point, they can do the same with the MLs. They're both under the same license. So licensing isn't justification for the price hike.

Actually, every single part of that paragraph other than what you quoted was aimed directly at your post, and JT was nice enough to summarize and expand when he wrote about "old molds, bad paint apps, cheap manufacturing" on the Spider-Man Origins line. And I never once cited licensing as the (as in only) justification in a price difference between Origins and ML but as a (as in one of many) factor in a price difference between Hasbro product and Toy Biz product.

To your point that the Spider-Man line is cheaper than the ML line, I'll reiterate that Origins cuts down on expense to Hasbro by being inferior in almost every way to the ML figures, so the only way ML is going to come down to Origins' price is by matching that inferiority. Now one can say that ML is so inferior the price should be equal to the Origins, but I'd really disagree with anyone who would state the Origins line has exactly the same quality as ML.

El Chuxter
02-02-2007, 11:13 PM
From what I've seen, if the price is totally based on quality, the ML figures should come as a freebie with the Origins figures.

Phantom-like Menace
02-03-2007, 12:25 AM
JT, after I mentioned comparing Origins and ML in my last post, I decided I had a question to ask you. On the topic of Hasbro's different type of plastic softening details (I swear I'm not reopening the case), do you notice the same effect with the Origins rehashes?

Bacta Beast
02-03-2007, 06:56 AM
On the topic of Hasbro's different type of plastic softening details (I swear I'm not reopening the case), do you notice the same effect with the Origins rehashes?

The case isn't closed and please tell me you don't actually think that Hasblo is using one type of plastic for the MLs and another for the Origins line.


And I never once cited licensing as the (as in only) justification in a price difference between Origins and ML but as a (as in one of many) factor in a price difference between Hasbro product and Toy Biz product.


In terms of cost, it was a given that Hasbro would raise the price. The most important cosideration is that they are having to recoup licensing costs, which Toy Biz avoided by being part of the Marvel Company. If you want to see what Hasbro does cost-wise when they don't have to pay licensing fees, check out the multi-packs of G.I. Joes at TRU..

:confused:


To your point that the Spider-Man line is cheaper than the ML line, I'll reiterate that Origins cuts down on expense to Hasbro by being inferior in almost every way to the ML figures..

Problem with that argument is, they'e not inferior in everyway. I have the "Iron Spidey" and he is in no way inferior to the anything in the ML line. Yet he's two dollars cheaper. Even though he was made under the same license. The only way you can claim the Origins line as being inferior to the MLs, is by citing re-paints. And that's not always a bad thing. Especially when you look at characters like Spidey and Silver Surfer for example.



so the only way ML is going to come down to Origins' price is by matching that inferiority..

Yep, already there.



Now one can say that ML is so inferior the price should be equal to the Origins, but I'd really disagree with anyone who would state the Origins line has exactly the same quality as ML.

"Agree to disagree" "When in Rome"

Phantom-like Menace
02-03-2007, 02:56 PM
The case isn't closed and please tell me you don't actually think that Hasblo is using one type of plastic for the MLs and another for the Origins line.

What case am I talking about? I'm sure your answer is going to be off the mark. And, I'll give you a freebie: it's more specific than "Hasbro has doen well with ML." Also, the question was directed at JT, so I'm figuring he'll know what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure why you quoted those first two paragraphs except that maybe you read "the most important cosideration," as "the only consideration, in a vacuum, with no qualifiers, completely unrelated to the paragraphs of other considerations listed." You're consistently ignoring ninety-five percent of what I'm saying for the remaining five percent.


Origins cuts down on expense to Hasbro by being inferior in almost every way to the ML figures.


Problem with that argument is, they'e not inferior in everyway.

Okay, I've bolded and italicized almost from my statement, and a critical examination of the two sentences above will show that they state exactly the same thing in different ways.

Also, by citing Iron Spider-Man among the many offerings in that line as being proof that just as much effort goes into that line as into ML, you're ignoring all of the other figures which don't fit into your argument.


The only way you can claim the Origins line as being inferior to the MLs, is by citing re-paints.

As far as cost of production goes, then yes, what other ruler should I be using? It's cheaper to push a button that pours plastic into a mold then push another button that paints it than it is to acquire the sculpts from Toy Biz, redo the articulation (no, I'm not arguing whether or not they should have, just that they did), make the very expensive molds, then finally perform the steps that Origins went through from the get go. And yes, I've simplified both of those processes. Simply put Origins: less expensive to produce; ML: more expensive to produce. I'll stop using the words inferior and quality as a catch-all and just say cheaper and effort, as that's the only way my poorly chosen words inferior and quality related to the price.


Now one can say that ML is so inferior the price should be equal to the Origins, but I'd really disagree with anyone who would state the Origins line has exactly the same quality as ML.


"Agree to disagree" "When in Rome"

So Hasbro's first ML series is all straight rereleases with inaccurate paints (black and silver Venom and symbiote?) minus one figure that is actually a new mold with accurate paint? At best you're exaggerating.

I'm going to continue using qualifiers like most, almost, many, a large number, so please consider them when looking at my argument. Also, if well more than fifty percent of the data says one thing, while the remaining data says another, smart money is on the majority of the data.

El Chuxter
02-03-2007, 03:13 PM
When Spider-Man 3 comes out, you may not say that the paint on Venom is inaccurate. ;)

Doc Ock's paint is pretty accurate, as are the paint jobs on Rhino, Spidey 2099, and Lizard. Only Demogoblin is inaccurate, though that owes more to using the Hobgoblin mold and not re-tooling the head.

Truth be told, mostly repaints of existing sculpts or not, the Origins line still looks a lot better than the ML line for a change.

Bacta Beast
02-03-2007, 09:47 PM
What case am I talking about? I'm sure your answer is going to be off the mark. And, I'll give you a freebie: it's more specific than "Hasbro has doen well with ML." Also, the question was directed at JT, so I'm figuring he'll know what I'm talking about.

In reference to the quality of the plastics. I reaize you were talking to JT. I hijacked the phrase. Sorry.


I'm not sure why you quoted those first two paragraphs except that maybe you read "the most important cosideration," as "the only consideration, in a vacuum, with no qualifiers, completely unrelated to the paragraphs of other considerations listed." You're consistently ignoring ninety-five percent of what I'm saying for the remaining five percent.

No I'm not ignoring the rest of what you say. It seems pretty simple to me but, okay walk with me over to the chalk board.....
You claimed in one post that it was a "given" that Hasbro would raise the price of the ML line and one of the reasons was recouping cost due to licensing. Then, in a later post, you claimed that you had never cited licensing as a factor. I just posted both of your quotes to point out the inconsistency.



Okay, I've bolded and italicized almost from my statement, and a critical examination of the two sentences above will show that they state exactly the same thing in different ways.

The "almost" doesn't change the ore of your statement. That being, overall the Origins line is much inferior to the ML line. I contend that it's not.


Also, by citing Iron Spider-Man among the many offerings in that line as being proof that just as much effort goes into that line as into ML, you're ignoring all of the other figures which don't fit into your argument.

Not proof, but an example. No different from anyone here who is judging the quality of the ML line without having actually opened one. I simply shared my experience of the one I did purchase. Actually I also purchased the Mysterio because I liked the paint job. I like it fairlywell save for the removal of the electrical components. It's not that the other figures don't fit into my argument. Overall I feel like the look of the Origins line is more appealing than the ML. I find the packaging and the paint apps more appealing. I wasn't ignoring figures that "didn't fit into my argument". I just didn't feel the need to give a breakdown on each figure.

Kidhuman
02-03-2007, 10:02 PM
While I dont collect this line, I have gotten a fair share for friends who asked for help. I did enjoy seeing what was released in the ailses, but now, I just laugh at them. Emma is horrid and please hospitalize Banshee for Jaundice. These are straight up horrid. I wouldnt feed these to a goat for a laugh.

Bacta Beast
02-03-2007, 10:18 PM
As far as cost of production goes, then yes, what other ruler should I be using? It's cheaper to push a button that pours plastic into a mold then push another button that paints it than it is to acquire the sculpts from Toy Biz, redo the articulation (no, I'm not arguing whether or not they should have, just that they did), make the very expensive molds, then finally perform the steps that Origins went through from the get go. And yes, I've simplified both of those processes. Simply put Origins: less expensive to produce; ML: more expensive to produce. I'll stop using the words inferior and quality as a catch-all and just say cheaper and effort, as that's the only way my poorly chosen words inferior and quality related to the price.


So Hasbro's first ML series is all straight rereleases with inaccurate paints (black and silver Venom and symbiote?) minus one figure that is actually a new mold with accurate paint? At best you're exaggerating.

The difference in our opinions is, you seem to be stating that re-paints=inferiority. I happen to disagree. I believe, having purchased figures from both lines, that the Origins line contains just as much quality as the ML line. If new sculpts were necessary for the Origins line, then I would be more inclined to agree with you. But lets not forget part of what folks have been doing in this thread is comparing the ToyBiz MLs to the Hasbro. The majority agreeing that the ToyBiz line was better then the Hasbro. But for those who feel that re-paints=inferiority, remember how much ToyBiz did just that (how many time did they re-use that first "Iron-Man" sculpt?).

Either way I think it would be cool if instead of wasting our posts quiveling with each other, we try to pool together and draw Hasbro's attentions to the things we would like them to change.:D

Phantom-like Menace
02-03-2007, 11:41 PM
No I'm not ignoring the rest of what you say. It seems pretty simple to me but, okay walk with me over to the chalk board.....
You claimed in one post that it was a "given" that Hasbro would raise the price of the ML line and one of the reasons was recouping cost due to licensing. Then, in a later post, you claimed that you had never cited licensing as a factor. I just posted both of your quotes to point out the inconsistency.

See there, you're ignoring part of my post again. Your second to last sentence there should read, "Then, in a later post, you claimed that you had never cited licensing as a factor in a price difference between Origins and ML but as a (as in one of many) factor in a price difference between Hasbro product and Toy Biz product." Go back and look, you will see I've never once said licensing fees factors into the price difference between Origins and Hasbro ML. There are then other factors which allow Origins to reduce that cost, that being reuse of old molds primarily (one of many).


The difference in our opinions is, you seem to be stating that re-paints=inferiority.


The "almost" doesn't change the ore of your statement. That being, overall the Origins line is much inferior to the ML line. I contend that it's not.


Simply put Origins: less expensive to produce; ML: more expensive to produce. I'll stop using the words inferior and quality as a catch-all and just say cheaper and effort, as that's the only way my poorly chosen words inferior and quality related to the price.

Sorry, I've quoted you twice above and myself once above because I believe one of our points of contention is one of simple poor choice of words on my part. I used inferior and quality in a rather cavalier manner assuming that the topic (cost of production) would clarify my meaning. I believe you read inferior and quality as changing the topic from cost of production to a question of whether or not they are worth buying. Both are understandable interpretations, but since I theorized this was one of our problems earlier and didn't make more than a cursory attempt to call it to our attention, I'll happily take the blame.

I'm not making a value judgement as to whether or not the Origins figures are worth buying. I've purchased two myself, and aside from the fact that I have nowhere to display them (inaccurate Spidey Symbiote and Iron Spidey don't exactly fit into any theme in my display room [though if I can get his joints unstuck, Iron Spidey may end up on my Avengers shelf].), I'm happy with them, though I may set myself the task of repainting the Symbiote Spidey. However, in terms of the effort Hasbro put forth to get those onto shelves, it was far cheaper for them--good or bad--than the effort it took to put out the ML figures, and that is reflected in the cost.


Either way I think it would be cool if instead of wasting our posts quiveling with each other, we try to pool together and draw Hasbro's attentions to the things we would like them to change.

A noble goal, but what should they change? I would love if the figures retained finger and toe articulation, and I do prefer the Toy Biz elbow/knee joints, but I still haven't seen any reason to throw myself to my death from a building with "Hasbro screwed up Marvel Legends" tatooed on my body like some people on the Internet at large. To convince me there is that great a change, I would have to see the results of a test in which several people unfamiliar with ML picked the Hasbro products out of the Toy Biz products.

El Chuxter
02-03-2007, 11:46 PM
...I still haven't seen any reason to throw myself to my death from a building with "Hasbro screwed up Marvel Legends" tatooed on my body like some people on the Internet at large. To convince me there is that great a change, I would have to see the results of a test in which several people unfamiliar with ML picked the Hasbro products out of the Toy Biz products.

Huh?

I started this just to let Hasbro know, in case they've not seen sales figures, that a lot of hardcore fans have totally dropped the line over the quality of the latest wave. This is a line that's pretty dependent upon hardcore adult collectors. How many kids do you think are saying, "Woo, Mom! It's Luke Cage and Beta Ray Bill"? Probably none.

And I think people who were unfamiliar with the line could, for the most part, pick out the ToyBiz and Hasbro figures. Hell, a blind man could see the difference in the paint.

Phantom-like Menace
02-04-2007, 12:36 AM
Huh?

I didn't say anyone here was doing that. Otherwise, I was exaggerating just as everyone seems to be exaggerating claims that there is such a great difference in product. Just as no blind man can see paint, no ML collectors were harmed in my previous post.

I agree fully that Hasbro should change several things about their MLs, but a great deal of complaints stem from changes that were in the works before Hasbro even came along. Those complaints would be levelled at Toy Biz right now had Hasbro not stepped in. The biggest complaint seems to be money. Yeah, they're more expensive with less bonuses. I'm astounded Hasbro decided the BAF concept could stay as Toy Biz was about to severely tighten that belt too.

We should pare down the laundry list to a more manageable number of items Hasbro would remotely take the time to look at, and in regards to the difference in Hasbro and Toy Biz, stop the hyperbole which I'm sure isn't exactly honey for the flies. We should really keep in mind that Toy Biz cut a lot of corners regardless of whether or not we felt that was justified, and it might be a good idea to remember Toy Biz made a lot of figures that stunk on ice.

I took the time to look at some of the Hasbro MLs today. If I didn't hate Thor and Hercules with a passion, Hercules looks like a great figure. The paint seems fine. Even on his chest he has darker paint in the deeper parts of the sculpt and it's even a darker shade of his flesh color, not the simple black wash Toy Biz threw onto everything. I hate movie figures, but it looks like they nailed Beast. A lot of people dislike Iron Man because they don't like the design, a view which ignores the fact that the execution of reproducing a figure of that design was fine.

BlueSnags
02-04-2007, 12:44 AM
The Hasbro Marvel Legends completely suck. They need to call this line something other than "Marvel Legends," because they are an inferior product compared to the Toy Biz incarnation.

JediTricks
02-04-2007, 04:24 AM
Heh heh, Banshee has a head almost as yeller as his costume. :p


Sure it does.I don't believe so, because they've only been at it working within the issues that Hasbro has brought for a short time, there are a lot of little variables that working a decade at Toy Biz won't give them much insight into when changing to Hasbro.


I'm sure Hasbro, with all their buying power, isn't "locked" into anything with anybody. They can do what they want. It's a matter of if they care or not. It's not that simple, they have contracts with factories and make certain deals, you can't just go out and hire another factory, you have to check them out, see what they can produce, ensure they can meet your production and tooling demands, ensure they know how to work with the materials, etc.. And it's not that cheap, they can't just go and buy another factory, they have to work within the confines of what exists there both in machines and in management, get the wrong guys - the kind who have to steal the manhole covers to get the metal to make the tooling - and your costs could skyrocket.


No but I'll bet you that they're familar with the choice of plastics and production secrets of the ToyBiz line.Which, as I was saying before, is not the same as the Hasbro materials and production line. A tool that works in one factory may not work out at another - some companies would rather scrap a tool than port it over due to costs of working it into a new factory.


My point isn't that the quality of the SM line is high, it's that the price is lower. If they can keep one down, they can do the other likewise.Yes, your point wasn't that the quality was down, MY point was that the quality was down and that was one thing that saved on costs.



JT, after I mentioned comparing Origins and ML in my last post, I decided I had a question to ask you. On the topic of Hasbro's different type of plastic softening details (I swear I'm not reopening the case), do you notice the same effect with the Origins rehashes?I haven't put in the time to compare them as I don't own many of the TB ones and none of the Hasbro ones, I've kinda avoided the Hasbro Spidey line except for quick glances (and the results looked so poor I panned them immediately after in the forums). Also, Spidey Classics and now Spidey Origins, both lines often rely less on sculpted details and more on painted ones since they're expected to be used for "play" rather than "display" uses - there are exceptions I'm sure, but generally that's what I've noticed. The less sculpted detail and the softer the sculpted detail, the easier it is to not worry about materials not taking as much from the tooling's details.



Problem with that argument is, they'e not inferior in everyway. I have the "Iron Spidey" and he is in no way inferior to the anything in the ML line. Yet he's two dollars cheaper. Even though he was made under the same license. The only way you can claim the Origins line as being inferior to the MLs, is by citing re-paints. And that's not always a bad thing. Especially when you look at characters like Spidey and Silver Surfer for example.Iron Spidey, isn't that the figure sporting a smooth surface sculpt for the most part with only simplistic sculpted detailing for the raised spidey logo, relying on the 3 robo-arms and paint apps to get the character across (paint apps, that I might add, are often askew)? I'm not trying to bash the figure, but it's not a hole in his argument as the figure you're citing has just 2 paint apps and and a simple sculpt so it's much easier to not screw up.



When Spider-Man 3 comes out, you may not say that the paint on Venom is inaccurate. ;)Paint? No. Sculpt? Probably, because it looks like they're going back to a Spidey Classics (yes, the Toy Biz) version for the mold, look at the lack of sculpted detailing and the simple knees on the carded sample and pre-production photos on that one's cardback.

Phantom-like Menace
02-04-2007, 05:20 AM
you can't just go out and hire another factory, you have to check them out, see what they can produce, ensure they can meet your production and tooling demands, ensure they know how to work with the materials, etc.. And it's not that cheap, they can't just go and buy another factory, they have to work within the confines of what exists there both in machines and in management, get the wrong guys - the kind who have to steal the manhole covers to get the metal to make the tooling - and your costs could skyrocket.

Getting the wrong factory brought us the much maligned Scarlett Mitch. True story.


I haven't put in the time to compare them as I don't own many of the TB ones and none of the Hasbro ones, I've kinda avoided the Hasbro Spidey line except for quick glances (and the results looked so poor I panned them immediately after in the forums). Also, Spidey Classics and now Spidey Origins, both lines often rely less on sculpted details and more on painted ones since they're expected to be used for "play" rather than "display" uses - there are exceptions I'm sure, but generally that's what I've noticed. The less sculpted detail and the softer the sculpted detail, the easier it is to not worry about materials not taking as much from the tooling's details.

That's cool. Like I said, not looking to argue the point, just seeking your insight.