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stillakid
10-08-2007, 11:53 AM
During the Old Ben vs. Vader duel in ANH, Vader says, "When I last left you, I was but the learner, now I am the Master."

But in ROTS, Anakin is more than full of himself proclaiming that he is the most powerful of Jedi, even stronger than Yoda.

So, what's the deal here? Are we to believe that Anakin-turned-Vader did some soul searching in those twenty years and realized afterall that he was really just a "learner" as Obi Wan was trying to tell him during ROTS and AOTC? And if that's so, then why would the OT Vader still be angry at Obi and not have a change of heart during ANH? Why wait until ROTJ?

Something else doesn't add up.

JON9000
10-08-2007, 12:23 PM
When Anakin leaves Obi-wan, he is still obviously the junior partner, and still learning from Obi-wan, who is still one of his mentors. The particulars of their conversation before Anakin splits show that he recognizes the nature of the dynamic, even though he believes himself to be the most powerful Jedi, he defers to the wisdom of Obi-wan, who gives him an encouraging pep talk. It's a moment of real friendship passing between the two, leading up to the big confrontation.

This is like arguing that because Qui-Gon acknowledged that in TPM that Obi-wan was wiser that somehow Qui-Gon was no longer the master when he died.

Droid
10-08-2007, 01:44 PM
When Anakin leaves Obi-wan, he is still obviously the junior partner, and still learning from Obi-wan, who is still one of his mentors. The particulars of their conversation before Anakin splits show that he recognizes the nature of the dynamic, even though he believes himself to be the most powerful Jedi, he defers to the wisdom of Obi-wan, who gives him an encouraging pep talk. It's a moment of real friendship passing between the two, leading up to the big confrontation.

That moment for me rang just as hollow as all of the moments in the prequels showing Anakin's personality. The scenes did not connect at all. One minute Anakin is furious with the Council and with Obi-wan, then he is telling Obi-wan how sorry he is. Then he's turning Palpatine in to the Council. Then he's hacking up Mace and killing kids and hating Obi-wan. None of it made any sense at all.

And I still argue there was nothing to show Anakin and Obi-wan as friends. In the first movie Obi-wan is dismissive of Anakin then takes him on solely out of obligation. In the second and third movie they just bicker endlessly with Anakin resenting Obi-wan and Obi-wan disappointed in Anakin.

I agree with stillakid. In Episode III Anakin believes he is the end all be all of Jedi. There is nothing that happens in between Episode III and IV that caused Anakin to find humility. It was only in Episode V and VI that Anakin started to find himself. It is another example of the original trilogy dialogue just not making sense when watching the prequels.

Rocketboy
10-08-2007, 04:50 PM
Yet another shining example of shoddy OT writing.

El Chuxter
10-08-2007, 05:23 PM
He's actually referring to his hobby of knitting. He started during the Clone Wars, to kill time on long voyages to other planets. He couldn't do much more than a coaster when Obi-Wan thought he killed him. In the years since, he has learned to do much, much more. What do you think the Death Star is made of? Trillions of miles of yarn.

JediTricks
10-08-2007, 07:14 PM
That moment for me rang just as hollow as all of the moments in the prequels showing Anakin's personality. The scenes did not connect at all. One minute Anakin is furious with the Council and with Obi-wan, then he is telling Obi-wan how sorry he is. Then he's turning Palpatine in to the Council. Then he's hacking up Mace and killing kids and hating Obi-wan. None of it made any sense at all.

And I still argue there was nothing to show Anakin and Obi-wan as friends. In the first movie Obi-wan is dismissive of Anakin then takes him on solely out of obligation. In the second and third movie they just bicker endlessly with Anakin resenting Obi-wan and Obi-wan disappointed in Anakin.

I agree with stillakid. In Episode III Anakin believes he is the end all be all of Jedi. There is nothing that happens in between Episode III and IV that caused Anakin to find humility. It was only in Episode V and VI that Anakin started to find himself. It is another example of the original trilogy dialogue just not making sense when watching the prequels."I'm with you, too!" Totally agree with ya's there.

Anakin in Ep 3 makes it clear he believes himself to be Obi-Wan's equal rather than learner, even deserving of a rank increase from Knight to Master. Hell, Obi-Wan pretty much even says that Anakin's no longer a learner with "You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be, and you have saved my life more times than I can remember. But be patient, Anakin. It won't be long before the Council makes you a Jedi Master."

2-1B
10-08-2007, 07:41 PM
They weren't bickering in that scene, or many others.

Slicker
10-09-2007, 02:16 AM
It could possibly be that Vader is speaking how he sees Obers as seeing him?

JON9000
10-09-2007, 09:24 AM
A few comments on all of the above:

1. Anakin has two would-be fathers, kinda like Bud Fox in Wall Street. Anakin readily acknowledges Obi-wan as a father figure, and, yes, teens and young adults are often exasperated with their mentors, hence the words of Padme in the apartment about mentors. Once that dynamic is established psychologically, it is hard to let go of.

2. While I consider the parting on Coruscant or the Mace scene the "leaving" the part referred to in ANH; learner or master, Ani sure got his arse schooled on Mustafar, didn't he? And right at the end, Anakin says something along the lines of "this is the end for you, my master". Guess what? that means he acknowledges Obi-wan as the master! Regardless, pride or no, when you've lost your limbs and been turned into a french fry, it gets kinda hard to deny, doesn't it? :pleased:

3. Finally, the line in ANH is a good one, and representative of the dynamic that previously existed between the two: Obi-wan was Anakin's former master and mentor, but Vader is truculantly letting him know those days are done.

4. I suppose we could go to ANH and have old James Earl redub the line into: "when I left you I was already better, now I am the master!" That's dramatic. If the line is a compromise, which I deny, I will still take it because it is a good line and sets up a sweet deadpan comeback: "only a master of evil, Darth."

5. If the PT backstory was done when ANH came out, and we know Obi-wan had already cast Anakin into the pit, it seems obvious that back in 1977 GL knew that Anakin had cast off the bridle, no? So, arguing in the alternative, isn't it the OT dialogue that is screwed up?

I closing, you guys don't like the prequels, I get it, but you are frankly grasping to somehow prove that fundamentally the whole shebang was blown because of your interpretation of dialogue in certain scenes, and, IMHO, your interpretations are made so as to reinforce your own feelings about the films overall. I, for one, have yet to be convinced by any of you. You would be better served by sticking to the argument that TPM was unconscionably juvenile, AOTC's middle hour feels like it goes on for three, and ROTS should have shied away from the Boris Karloff bit at the end, or would have been more dramatic had Obi-wan delivered the babies on Coruscant and Padme really died of her injuries.

Peace out.

stillakid
10-09-2007, 10:58 AM
A few comments on all of the above:

1. Anakin has two would-be fathers, kinda like Bud Fox in Wall Street. Anakin readily acknowledges Obi-wan as a father figure, and, yes, teens and young adults are often exasperated with their mentors, hence the words of Padme in the apartment about mentors. Once that dynamic is established psychologically, it is hard to let go of.
So we're just supposed to chalk Anakin's wild mood swings and inconsistent statements (within moments of each other) as him just being a typical teenager? That's pretty lame...for a movie.


2. While I consider the parting on Coruscant or the Mace scene the "leaving" the part referred to in ANH; learner or master, Ani sure got his arse schooled on Mustafar, didn't he? And right at the end, Anakin says something along the lines of "this is the end for you, my master". Guess what? that means he acknowledges Obi-wan as the master! Regardless, pride or no, when you've lost your limbs and been turned into a french fry, it gets kinda hard to deny, doesn't it? :pleased:
So your suggestion is that Anakin discovered "humility" as he was laying there being flambeed? He doesn't seem to have any such epiphany as he screams out "I HATE YOU" and "NOOOOOOO!" You're reaching with this one.


3. Finally, the line in ANH is a good one, and representative of the dynamic that previously existed between the two: Obi-wan was Anakin's former master and mentor, but Vader is truculantly letting him know those days are done.
Yes, it is a great line and the Prequels should have been written to reflect the ideas expressed in it.


4. I suppose we could go to ANH and have old James Earl redub the line into: "when I left you I was already better, now I am the master!" That's dramatic. If the line is a compromise, which I deny, I will still take it because it is a good line and sets up a sweet deadpan comeback: "only a master of evil, Darth."
Why change the original continuity when it would be more appropriate to write later stories in line with what came before?


5. If the PT backstory was done when ANH came out, and we know Obi-wan had already cast Anakin into the pit, it seems obvious that back in 1977 GL knew that Anakin had cast off the bridle, no? So, arguing in the alternative, isn't it the OT dialogue that is screwed up?
Uh, no. I'm not understanding your logic here. The OT establishes that Anakin was still a student of Obi when he went to Palpatine. It also establishes that Anakin himself recognized that he was not a Master and that he wasn't as good as Obi Wan, thus the line in ANH. I don't understand your statement that "GL knew that Anakin had cast off the bridle." GL didn't know that and neither did we or anyone else. Like Luke on Dagobah, Anakin went to the Darkside at a dangerous time in his training. Obi thought he could teach Anakin just as well as Yoda (his own Master according to the OT, not the useless character Qui Gon) and he (Obi) wasn't good enough to reign Anakin in during that dangerous time. Anakin didn't cast off the bridle ... he just left Obi for a new Master, but he still knew (per the ANH dialogue) that he wasn't as good as Obi Wan.


I closing, you guys don't like the prequels, I get it, but you are frankly grasping
What grasping? There's not a shred of grasping going on. The established dialogue and continuity explain exactly what should have been seen in the Prequels.


to somehow prove that fundamentally the whole shebang was blown because of your interpretation of dialogue in certain scenes,
If anyone has ever had to "interpret" anything, it is those who have some need to justify their enjoyment of the Prequels. Some of the spin has been worthy of FOX News! :D



and, IMHO, your interpretations are made so as to reinforce your own feelings about the films overall.
Again, they are not interpretations. I just look at what is there (in the original continuity) and observe how that continuity is either served or ignored. My own feelings about the films are determined by the films themselves. Your statement implies that people like me decided to hate them first, then imagine reasons that justify the choice. That's absolutely ridiculous!!!!


I, for one, have yet to be convinced by any of you.
Because you and others don't want to be. It's like a religion. You want to believe in something and enjoy it and if anyone shows a "hole" in the belief, it threatens the belief and/or enjoyment of it. So it's better to spin the logic to fit a predetermined worship (even to the extent of changing the original continuity as you suggested doing above) than to admit that the new stories are fundamentally flawed.





You would be better served by sticking to the argument that TPM was unconscionably juvenile,
I've never had that problem with it. My problem with TPM is that it is a pointless storyline that wastes two hours needed to tell the primary story... also that it is just bad filmmaking in general... that it fails to follow most of the established continuity of the saga. Sure, poop jokes are juvenile, but if that was the main problem with the film, then everyone would be a lot happier.


AOTC's middle hour feels like it goes on for three,
You said it, not me. Again, if that was AOTC's biggest issue, we'd all be a lot better off. There are multiple issues with AOTC, from character ages to stilted ridiculous dialogue, to inconsistent motivations from a main character.


and ROTS should have shied away from the Boris Karloff bit at the end, or would have been more dramatic had Obi-wan delivered the babies on Coruscant and Padme really died of her injuries.

Yes, there was definitely over-the-top theatrical fan wank inserted gratuitously into all three Prequel films. Those things certainly contribute to the negatives of the Prequels. But it is primarily the continuity issues and nonsensical character motivations that plague the story.


Look, I could give two sh**s if somebody loves the Prequels "For what they are!" Seriously. Have a great time. I liked the movie SPEED, but I am not above admitting that it is full o' holes that I should hate it for. It was fun, I let go of the holes and had a good time. The Star Wars Prequels are fu**ed up in a lot of ways, both as sequels to an established continuity and as individual films themselves. What I don't understand is the constant "need" for some people to defend them as if they are perfectly written and executed. Do you guys have stock in Lucasfilm or something? Seriously, I can't figure out why the FOX NEWS-like spin on everything as "interpretation" when grade-school logic is enough to illustrate just how f'd the Prequel stories are.

JON9000
10-09-2007, 12:25 PM
Because you and others don't want to be. It's like a religion. You want to believe in something and enjoy it and if anyone shows a "hole" in the belief, it threatens the belief and/or enjoyment of it. So it's better to spin the logic to fit a predetermined worship (even to the extent of changing the original continuity as you suggested doing above) than to admit that the new stories are fundamentally flawed.

Stilla, that's the exact argument I just made about the haters, minus all of the inflammatory nonsense about religious fervor. :p And I don't advocate changing the original continuity, just letting you know the your interpretations would require changing the OT at this point. I proceed from the assumption that if there are two perfectly valid interpretations, one of which makes sense, the other which does not, then the one which makes sense should control.

Oh, and BTW, were I to reinforce my view of the PT, I imagine problems with this stuff just like you. I just think your arguments are tenuous, although you apparently have several ditto-heads in the house.


Again, they are not interpretations. I just look at what is there (in the original continuity) and observe how that continuity is either served or ignored. My own feelings about the films are determined by the films themselves. Your statement implies that people like me decided to hate them first, then imagine reasons that justify the choice. That's absolutely ridiculous!!!!

What makes it ridiculous when I say it but perfectly valid when you turn it around? :rolleyes: That is what's absolutely ridiculous.


Look, I could give two sh**s if somebody loves the Prequels "For what they are!" Seriously. Have a great time. I liked the movie SPEED, but I am not above admitting that it is full o' holes that I should hate it for. It was fun, I let go of the holes and had a good time. The Star Wars Prequels are fu**ed up in a lot of ways, both as sequels to an established continuity and as individual films themselves. What I don't understand is the constant "need" for some people to defend them as if they are perfectly written and executed. Do you guys have stock in Lucasfilm or something? Seriously, I can't figure out why the FOX NEWS-like spin on everything as "interpretation" when grade-school logic is enough to illustrate just how f'd the Prequel stories are.

If you didn't give two craps, you wouldn't be parsing dialogue to somehow "prove" your opinions as facts. I have problems with most of the other aspects you mentioned, but I am calling these dialogue arguments "bunk", not out of prequel worship, but for what they are.


The OT establishes that Anakin was still a student of Obi when he went to Palpatine. It also establishes that Anakin himself recognized that he was not a Master and that he wasn't as good as Obi Wan, thus the line in ANH. I don't understand your statement that "GL knew that Anakin had cast off the bridle." GL didn't know that and neither did we or anyone else.

I thought that Lucas always had in mind a big fight in which Obi tossed Ani in the lava. Assuming that to be true, it makes sense that he would have known Anakin had already repudiated Obi as his "Master".

Although, none of this matters, because Anakin called Obi-wan his "master" right before going into the lava, so I don't even know why I am bothering here.

stillakid
10-09-2007, 12:44 PM
Stilla, that's the exact argument I just made about the haters, minus all of the inflammatory nonsense about religious fervor. :p And I don't advocate changing the original continuity, just letting you know the your interpretations would require changing the OT at this point. I proceed from the assumption that if there are two perfectly valid interpretations, one of which makes sense, the other which does not, then the one which makes sense should control.

Oh, and BTW, were I to reinforce my view of the PT, I imagine problems with this stuff just like you. I just think your arguments are tenuous, although you apparently have several ditto-heads in the house.

I'm not "imagining" problems. They are there. I just call attention to them.

You DID advocate changing the original continuity just a couple posts back.

And again, these aren't my "interpretations." The OT sets up the continuity that any additional stories are beholden to. Had ANH said that all Jedi had wings, then I would expect to see all Jedi having wings in the rest of the movies. Again, what I think or believe has nothing to do with it. I just observe the established continuity and report on how well each succeeding story holds to it or not.




What makes it ridiculous when I say it but perfectly valid when you turn it around? :rolleyes: That is what's absolutely ridiculous.
It's different because I don't rely on interpretation and "spin" in order to defend flaws. I just observe what's there and leave my personal feelings out of it.




If you didn't give two craps, you wouldn't be parsing dialogue to somehow "prove" your opinions as facts. I have problems with most of the other aspects you mentioned, but I am calling these dialogue arguments "bunk", not out of prequel worship, but for what they are.
If you were leaving your personal feelings out of it, you'd recognize that these "dialogue arguments" are not "bunk." And no, I don't care if someone enjoys crap. That's their perojative. I'm merely drawing attention to the inherent flaws. How someone chooses to react to them is their own business so long as there is acceptance of the situation.




I thought that Lucas always had in mind a big fight in which Obi tossed Ani in the lava. Assuming that to be true, it makes sense that he would have known Anakin had already repudiated Obi as his "Master".
Why would anyone "assume" something like that? With that little piece of info which I think was given during the Playboy interview in the 1980s, all anyone can get from it is that Anakin loses the fight with Obi Wan. Period. Why would you assume that Anakin would instantly feel humility and see himself as still just a "Learner"? Granted, that's theoretically what should have happened, but that's not the question. The issue is that ROTS CLEARLY shows that Anakin is still a stubborn SOB who says outright that he believes himself to be worthy of being a Master and that he is even more powerful than Yoda. That flies in the face of what Vader says in ANH.


Although, none of this matters, because Anakin called Obi-wan his "master" right before going into the lava, so I don't even know why I am bothering here.
Me either. You're conveniently leaving out other key moments, like when Anakin believes himself to be worthy of being a Master and that he is more powerful than Yoda. With that, the audience leaves the theater knowing that Anakin believes that he is no longer a Learner. Cut to ANH when Vader contradicts this. Being that ROTS was made after ANH, it means that ROTS in the contradiction and is in error as it is beholden to the continuity established by the OT.

JON9000
10-09-2007, 12:58 PM
It's different because I don't rely on interpretation and "spin" in order to defend flaws. I just observe what's there and leave my personal feelings out of it.

Stillakid, while I appreciate your generally keeping things above the belt and playing nice today, I've seen you get into plenty of downright ugly spitting matches over this stuff with those who respond in kind to condescension, resulting in suspension and bans, which means either you take this stuff personally, or you aren't above trolling. Take your pick, but I don't buy what is quoted above.

And it bears repeating, if I were to let my opinions of the PT in general control my assessment of your arguments, I would likely find myself in agreement with you. Is that so hard to contemplate?

stillakid
10-09-2007, 02:40 PM
Stillakid, while I appreciate your generally keeping things above the belt and playing nice today, I've seen you get into plenty of downright ugly spitting matches over this stuff with those who respond in kind to condescension, resulting in suspension and bans, which means either you take this stuff personally, or you aren't above trolling. Take your pick, but I don't buy what is quoted above.

And it bears repeating, if I were to let my opinions of the PT in general control my assessment of your arguments, I would likely find myself in agreement with you. Is that so hard to contemplate?


I don't understand what "trolling" is so I can't really comment on that. As far as being condescending, sure, it becomes frustrating to see otherwise intelligent people allow their personal desires and opinions cloud their evaluation of fact and truth, here and in real life. It makes one wonder what drives such devotion...blind faith or willful ignorance? Maybe they are the same things.

If anything should be understood about fans like me who aren't afraid to recognize the inherent flaws in the Prequels it's that nobody stepped foot into the theater looking for problems. I'm sure that everyone here and elsewhere went in expecting to be thoroughly entertained by solid well told stories. It is only afterwards when we reflect on why we weren't as entertained as we had expected to be (based on previous experiences with Star Wars properties), do we examine the specifics of the Prequel films relative to the Originals and then see the glaring problems. If someone enjoys the films despite the problems, I've got no problems with that. But to consistently hear others suggest that the Prequels are without flaws and that people like me are just "whiners" or whatever, suggests that something else is going on which I can't fully understand.

2-1B
10-11-2007, 05:45 PM
Who the f*** even watches these movies anymore ? :confused:

I liked all 6 of them, took down multiple theatrical viewings, but I don't even watch them anymore. Kind of sad, cuz I didn't think that would ever happen.

darthvyn
10-12-2007, 09:08 AM
once again, adding implications to a statement that really aren't there...


The OT establishes that Anakin was still a student of Obi when he went to Palpatine.

true, and that's not contradicted by the prequels in the slightest, so it needn't be brought up.


It also establishes that Anakin himself recognized that he was not a Master and that he wasn't as good as Obi Wan, thus the line in ANH.

true, he wasn't a Master. once again, not contradicted.

the second part is purely conjecture based on what you are trying to convince us is implied. if he truly believed that he wasn't "as good as obi-wan", he would've said "when i left you i was not as good as you..."

the fact remains that he WAS still a jedi knight to obi-wan's jedi master. he was still paired with him as his learner.

stillakid
10-12-2007, 09:37 AM
the fact remains that he WAS still a jedi knight to obi-wan's jedi master. he was still paired with him as his learner.

Once again, like a good FOX News reporter, you conveniently leave out everything else that goes on and is said in ROTS. Anakin clearly states that he believes himself to be ahead of Obi Wan in a lot of ways and he consistently whines and argues that he should be recognized as a Master. He also believes himself to be better than Yoda.

You take all of the above quotes out of context in order to defend the Prequels. If you're going to defend something, you have to recognize the entire film, not just the parts that support your desired interpretation.

darthvyn
10-12-2007, 10:04 AM
Once again, like a good FOX News reporter,

i guess this is your new favorite insult of the week?


you conveniently leave out everything else that goes on and is said in ROTS. Anakin clearly states that he believes himself to be ahead of Obi Wan in a lot of ways and he consistently whines and argues that he should be recognized as a Master.

that's very true. he does whine that he should be RECOGNIZED as a master, and is annoyed and angry that he ISN'T. obviously, he's resigned to the fact that he's NOT a master, despite his desire, hence all the whining.

"it sucks that i'm not a master. i should be, i'm better than everyone else."

just reinforces his boastfulness at his last meeting with obi-wan. sounds pretty much like the same old rag to me.

also, the line is "when i left you i was but the learner, now i am the master" not saying that changes anything (not like it's an "oh" or something else more descriptive and telling :rolleyes: ) but just to be accurate.


He also believes himself to be better than Yoda.

yep, but the 9,999 out of 10,000 jedi disagree. and he knew it.

stillakid
10-12-2007, 10:15 AM
that's very true. he does whine that he should be RECOGNIZED as a master, and is annoyed and angry that he ISN'T. obviously, he's resigned to the fact that he's NOT a master, despite his desire, hence all the whining.

"it sucks that i'm not a master. i should be, i'm better than everyone else."

just reinforces his boastfulness at his last meeting with obi-wan. sounds pretty much like the same old rag to me.

also, the line is "when i left you i was but the learner, now i am the master" not saying that changes anything (not like it's an "oh" or something else more descriptive and telling :rolleyes: ) but just to be accurate.



yep, but the 9,999 out of 10,000 jedi disagree. and he knew it.

No, he didn't. He clearly says and indicates that he believes himself to be better than every other Jedi and that he is worthy of being a Master. It would take a considerable level of spin and rationalization to have Anakin's words and actions mean anything else.

The bottom line is that Haydakin believes himself to be no longer a "Learner" as he called himself in ANH. There is a disconnect (again) between the Prequels and the OT.

darthvyn
10-12-2007, 10:39 AM
He clearly says and indicates that he believes himself to be better than every other Jedi and that he is worthy of being a Master. It would take a considerable level of spin and rationalization to have Anakin's words and actions mean anything else.

that's true, he did indicate that he believes himself better and all that... until his last interaction with obi-wan until their duel on mustafar:


Master, I've disappointed you. I have not been very appreciative of your training . . . I have been arrogant and I apologize . . . I've just been so frustrated with the Council.

sounds like he's redacting his previous rants about how he should be a master to me...

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-12-2007, 10:43 AM
No, he didn't. He clearly says and indicates that he believes himself to be better than every other Jedi and that he is worthy of being a Master. It would take a considerable level of spin and rationalization to have Anakin's words and actions mean anything else.
Despite all of Anakin's boasting, he still referred to Obi-Wan as "master" throughout ROTS even though he had already become a knight. (And I ditto vyn's statements, which were made as I was typing.)

For someone who hates Fox News, it really seems like you'd get along well with Bill O'Reilly.

El Chuxter
10-12-2007, 11:08 AM
I bet Mustafar was like Obi-Wan peeing in Anakin's Corn Flakes.

Mad Slanted Powers
10-16-2007, 01:29 AM
I think JON put it best. Even if Anakin believed he was better than Obi-Wan, Mustafar proved he wasn't. Otherwise he would have said something like "You got lucky last time. I won't make that mistake again."

stillakid
10-16-2007, 01:54 AM
I think JON put it best. Even if Anakin believed he was better than Obi-Wan, Mustafar proved he wasn't. Otherwise he would have said something like "You got lucky last time. I won't make that mistake again."

Nope. If we learned anything about Anakin during the Prequels is that he doesn't pay attention to reality or logic. While the final fight illustrates to reasonable people that Anakin isn't "better" (for a variety of reasons), but what is relevant to the ANH dialogue (When I left you...) is what Anakin himself believes. And all throughout ROTS he believes himself to be the best, beyond Yoda even.

2-1B
10-16-2007, 07:15 PM
Anakin Vader wasn't saying in 4 that he thought he was a Learner when he left...he was sayin that he was viewed as a Learner and thus disrespected, so he was rubbin it back at Obers.

stillakid
10-16-2007, 09:29 PM
Anakin Vader wasn't saying in 4 that he thought he was a Learner when he left...he was sayin that he was viewed as a Learner and thus disrespected, so he was rubbin it back at Obers.

Really? Let's review:





VADER
When I left you, I was but the Learner, now I am the Master.



or was it:




VADER
When I left you, you viewed me as the Learner, but as you can see, I was the Master then and am still the Master now.



The Quiz for today is, which quote above was in Star Wars Episode IV?

Mad Slanted Powers
10-16-2007, 09:48 PM
Maybe he was actually saying "I was Butt, the Learner."

2-1B
10-16-2007, 10:07 PM
Then in the 6th movie that they made, they show lil Vader talking to Young Obi about not being a Master...so when he left Obi-Wan, he wasn't a Master and thus outranked by Obles.

2-1B
10-16-2007, 10:11 PM
Maybe he was actually saying "I was Butt, the Learner."

And MSP, that was f***ing hilarious !!!!! lollollollollol

El Chuxter
10-16-2007, 10:21 PM
With the "You were Beavis, the Master" implied, I take it?