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View Full Version : The Sith Plot and Prequel Trilogy Explained



Tycho
11-23-2007, 11:52 PM
5,000 or more years before the Death Star blew up, some individuals could:

move objects with their minds
see the future
manipulate others' thoughts
heal others almost magically
fight with incredible combat skills

They banded together like super heroes to help others as well as those like themselves who were born "different."

The largest band of such individuals formed the Jedi Order.

Some of the Jedi students thought "might makes right." They set out to rule by force over a democratically administered galaxy.

They had to be stopped by other Force users from the Jedi Order, and the upstarts were banished in deportation ships.

They settled outside of explored space and found primatives called the Sith who ruled by strength and subscribed to the same philosophies these Jedi outcasts always believed in. Using their Force powers, they ruled them as Gods or LORDS. They became the Dark Lords of the Sith.

5,000 years before the Death Star blew up, the Dark Lords of the Sith returned to invade the Republic. The Jedi repelled them. Some of their artifacts and essence was preserved on Yavin IV, amongst other places like in the Empress Teta System (called the Koros System at the time).

4,000 years before the Death Star blew up, new Jedi upstarts went prying into such dark matters and also conquered the marauder cult of the Mandalorians to be their warriors. They were once again defeated by the Jedi.

1,000 years before the Death Star blew up, a huge resurgence in the interest in the Sith Lords blew up, and intergalactic armies did battle. Almost all of the best warriors of both sides died on Ruusan, save for a Sith Lord who called himself Darth Bane. He reformed the cult to a secretive order of only 2, a Master and Apprentice.

Hundreds of years after that, within this cult, a Muun scientist / Sith Lord named Darth Plagueis tried to genetically engineer the ultimate Sith Lord by convincing midichlorians to create life in the womb of a slave subject, Shmi Skywalker.

Perhaps unwilling to permit himself being replaced, Plagueis' apprentice Sidious might have had a hand in the loss of the slave and her child.

In the meantime, the apprentice inserted himself into Naboo politics and got himself elected the planetary Senator.

Sidious probably knew where the Skywalkers were hidden, but didn't need them.

He trained an Iridonian from infancy and got him tattoo'd like a freak while he was too young to know better, so he could never publically replace Sidious' position.

He killed Plagueis when he no longer needed him.

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As Darth Sidious, he encouraged piracy in the shipping lanes.

To stop the pirates and protect their cargo, private companies like the Trade Federation purchased mass armies of droid security forces.

By following Sidious' recommendations, they became more profitable and their greed led them to accept his guidance.

Local planets resented Trade Federation and other corporate companies running private security forces and demanded the Republic restrict them.

The Senate said they could raise taxes for the money to outfit an inter-space security force to patrol the area.

The Trade Federation was so ingrained into different planets' politics that it attained ad hoc representation in the Senate, which was ultimately accepted as the Federation built a monopoly many planets had to rely on. In the Senate, the Federation opposed taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems.

As the Senator from Naboo, Palpatine pushed for the measure, but as Sidious, he instructed the Federation to fight Palpatine by blockading his planet.

With the people of Naboo facing food and medical supply shortages, the Supreme Chancellor Vallorum turned to a rogue Jedi named Qui-Gon Jinn to interfere.

Sidious had 2 plans:

Plan 1: The Naboo Queen would be forced to sign a treaty allowing Federation occupation of her planet, and once in control, the Federation would surprisingly NOT replace Palpatine as their puppet Senator. Then the Sith plan could continue.

Plan 2: call for Valorum's ouster and run to replace him, winning by a sympathy vote and becoming Supreme Chancellor, then the Sith Plan could also continue.

Qui-Gon Jinn caused a lot of problems by rescuing the Queen, discovering Anakin Skywalker, and helping to liberate Naboo while his padawan killed Darth Maul, who was sent to enforce the Sith plan.

Ever adaptive, Palpatine used the sympathy vote to become Supreme Chancellor according to his second plan anyway.

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Sypho Dias' had a vision of the future in which the Republic would need an army. He secretly ordered one from the cloners on Kamino. He probably shared his idea with his friend, the Jedi Dooku. Dooku killed Dias and usurped his plan, finding a descendant of Mandalorians, Jango Fett, to be a clone templet so he'd have something to bargain with when he contacted the Sith Lord.

He became the next Sith apprentice. The Clones proceeded according to orders.

Anakin Skywalker was trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi and his extremely unnaturally high midichlorian count made him very adept at being a Jedi, while his unusual upbringing (for a Jedi) made him also quite the opposite.

Dooku meanwhile left the Jedi, probably according to the Sith plan. He rallied the corporate interests into withdrawing from the Republic to further their own business interests and greed. They didn't want to pay the higher taxes for the security force. They bought into their own private armies again - droid armies of course.

The Republic's position was that they couldn't seceede. Alarmed by these planets gathering droid armies, the Senate wanted to create its own Grand Army. Palpatine, walked the fence, as a Chancellor should (often the tie-breaking vote if necessary). However, Naboo's senator Amidala was a pacifist and did not want the Republic to beat the war drum. Attempts were made to kill her - and you'd think they would come from the Republic's war hawks, but it was actually the opportune moment for the Trade Federation to strike when they'd be less likely suspects, as a war would let them use their droids to fight for independence - plus they'd finally get their revenge on Amidala.

Dooku sat in a very dangerous position to the galaxy and even his Sith Master. Should he win the war, betray and kill or have killed his master, he'd wind up in control of the galaxy as the charismatic leader of the Confederacy. Should he go along with the plan, he'd still possibly reign as the Sith apprentice.

Palpatine knew this, and was cultivating Anakin privately, so he might use him to cement his legacy with a more loyal apprentice who could eventually kill Dooku.

The systems did seceede and held a captured Obi-Wan who was investigating the assasination attempts on Amidala as an enemy spy. The Jedi had to finally intervene and come rescue him. Yoda made the decision to work with the Clones as they were ready-made to control the droid army they likely had no choice but to face. Geonosis proclaimed it was an invasion and released its droids into war, starting the entire Civil War when the Clones attacked in response. Other planets by the thousands were drawn into the conflageration by defense treaties that Dooku already knew how to exploit.

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Almost discovered that he'd played both sides, Palpatine had Dooku and his agents seem to capture him at Coruscant, where then it was Dooku who was killed by Skywalker, now firmly under the influence of Palpatine who was baiting him with forbidden knowledge of how to save his pregnant wife, none other than Amidala. All was in place as a secret from the Jedi who would have forbade the relationship.

When Anakin learned the truth and reported it to the Jedi, they made the decision to arrest Palpatine, but when he wouldn't be taken without a fight and killed 3 High Council Members, Mace Windu decided to take on his execution. Palpatine used this as an excuse to convince Anakin to intervene, causing Mace Windu's death.

In danger of being exposed, and with strong motivations to stay in Palpatine's good graces, Anakin chose to betray the Jedi. Forced to concede that combat-trained children who would be suddenly outcast from their home in the temple, would likely turn into rebel leaders, Anakin took Clone Troopers to kill everyone including the children, while Palpatine had the rest of the Clones pre-conditioned to kill their Jedi commanders when issued Order 66.

Obi-Wan and Yoda, as well as some other Jedi escaped their fate, but were branded outlaws by the Senate who decreed Palpatine as their Emperor.

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There is much less meat and potatoes to the classic trilogy as it could be much more easily summarized.

Mvader91
11-24-2007, 12:47 AM
You the man! Thanks. That was really good.

2-1B
11-24-2007, 04:26 AM
Lame.

"Rule of Two" is the biggest pile of crap in the SW universe - worse than Midichlorians, Gungans, Ewoks, Jedi Rocks, and Ewan's bad wigs combined.

Tycho
11-24-2007, 11:07 AM
Lame.

"Rule of Two" is the biggest pile of crap in the SW universe - worse than Midichlorians, Gungans, Ewoks, Jedi Rocks, and Ewan's bad wigs combined.

Why? Because every Sith breaks it? They secretly train some apprentice somewhere to kill off their partner in crime - either to get a better apprentice or to become the master.

But we saw this since the beginning: ROTJ - on the 2nd Death Star, Emperor Palpatine was encouraging Luke to "take his father's place at his side." Meanwhile, Vader wanted to train his son so they could both eliminate the Emperor. It's been going on forever in SW.

2-1B
11-24-2007, 01:49 PM
Yeah, exactly, that IS what happens because it's in the nature of anyone who is trying to win over "unlimited power."

The suggestion that some idiot Sith sat around thinking about it and telling others "hey guys we're gonna kill each other off if we keep this up so let's impose a Rule of Two, mmkay?" is just horrible writing. It's not needed and it only waters down the story.

It works GREAT in the movies without any mention of this stupid "Rule." And no, Yoda was not talking about in TPM.

JediTricks
11-24-2007, 02:08 PM
I don't think the impact is that heavy, it makes some amount of sense, the LAST survivor can make whatever rules he wants since he's the one passing down the knowledge, and since he is the only survivor, he probably has some wisdom the others lacked. Why Yoda or Mace would know of this though makes no sense to me. My biggest problem with the rule is how does Darth Bane, this last Sith survivor - who LOST the war - believe that only 1 more Sith than him can somehow defeat vast amounts of Jedi? Granted, Sidious figured out the trick, manipulate the people to become the Sith armies without ever knowing it, but it seems a tad far-fetched for Bane to foresee this and NOT take advantage of it himself.

Tycho
11-24-2007, 03:26 PM
I agree with JediTricks, but have any of you read Darth Bane: Path of Destruction? It's a really good book actually.

Bane, aka Dressel I think (his birth name), was a poor kid born into bad circumstances at a mining colony and discovered by the Sith who were then numerous, as they recruited for their armies in the 1,000 years war. Dressel was then taken to be trained on Korriban, where he learned to use the Force and a brutal, survival of the fittest philosophy. (Much Sith training is not much different from Jedi training. Why would it be? There are some "unnatural" uses of the Force involved - like throwing lightning - and a totally different philosophy that's very easy to come up with - just be total "Darwin."

But I think he closed down much of his emotions and hope and settled into Sith philosophy very dispassionately, with not much ambition beyond survival. He continued to pursue Sith knowledge, and if the young girl "Rain" a nickname for Zanna I think, who survived Ruusan, did in fact become his first apprentice, he simply wanted to pass down his knowledge and mentor someone. He didn't have a lover or daughter in his life really. There was another Sith adept woman, but I think that ended very badly with her death. And if it was Githany from the comics, she too succombed to a bad fate.

If Zanna learned from Bane and then killed him and took her own apprentice, I don't think he would have seen that coming. She might have had more to do with Sith ruthlessness in the new Sith order than he did.

But because Lord Khan and the others were such an infighting, disorganized disaster, Bane did not want to see history repeat itself. Think Brave New World and an island of all Alphas. Who's going to clean the bathrooms or flip the hamburgers? Sith Lords are Alphas. They have no Betas or other lessers. Bane knew that "the island of only Alphas" would never survive. It's in their nature. But he must have underestimated his own apprentice's nature as well. However, he might have killed her and trained another apprentice who eventually killed him. I don't know. That hasn't been written yet.

However, each Sith brought to the table something to advance their standing: if Plagues created Anakin, then his alchemy knowledge may have even surpassed Naga Sadow's. I think he also resurrected Durge for use later, since he knew the Mandalorians would rally to fight him again, and Durge would have his own vandetta against them.

I don't know what the rest of the Sith were doing for some 700 plus missing years:

1000-930 or so BBY - Bane training his apprentice
930-830 or so, Bane's apprentice's lifespan if she's human (Yoda alive now)
830-130 ???
130 - 42 or so, Plagueis, Anakin born, etc.
32- Yavin, Sidious' reign

In Star Wars Tales, there is some point in which Yoda did go to Dagobah - he may have even been there twice before his exile - and each time he killed or slew a Dark Jedi or Sith. That is how he knows of their ways. Tales might have been covering his killing of a Dark Jedi from the Bvphassh System that was mentioned as the reason of the Dark Side's presence in the tree cave when Yoda trained Luke there. I'd have to go back and see if it was double-covered. That was when Yoda was young. I don't think he was one of Dooku's Dark Jedi. It was ages before that. And if it were a true Sith Lord that Yoda faced, it could not have been during Dooku's era, as he was the apprentice and if any upstart would be trained as his apprentice, it would have been Ventriss.

JediTricks
11-24-2007, 03:35 PM
It's "Plagueis".

I haven't read any of those books, not even Brave New World (which I believe isn't SW ;) ).

2-1B
11-25-2007, 02:50 AM
I agree with JediTricks, but have any of you read Darth Bane: Path of Destruction?

Nope. Never will either.

jjreason
11-25-2007, 08:07 AM
Good write-up, Tycho. Is there a source for your submission regarding Sifo Dias's vision and him initiating the creation of the Clone Army? I'd always thought Dooku or Palpatine had simply used his name, and that Dooku had murdered his former friend before placing the order to show his loyalty to Palpatine.

Tycho
11-25-2007, 02:16 PM
Good write-up, Tycho. Is there a source for your submission regarding Sifo Dias's vision and him initiating the creation of the Clone Army? I'd always thought Dooku or Palpatine had simply used his name, and that Dooku had murdered his former friend before placing the order to show his loyalty to Palpatine.

No. I don't have any facts. I had to fill it in here. So your guess is as good as mine.

It would seem that Lama Su had either met with or communicated with Syfo Dias, by his dialogue with Obi-Wan.

Now Jango was recruited by "Tyranus" who he knew in reality to be Count Dooku. In the Boba Fett books, young Fett Junior notes that neither the Separatists nor the Jedi knew that Dooku went by the name Tyranus as well.

Jango knew that Tyranus was Dooku, a former Jedi. I wonder why he didn't just reveal that to Obi-Wan? I guess it was all part of manipulating the Jedi into thinking they'd "discovered" the Clones and Droid Armies, so they wouldn't suspect it was a set-up designed for them to trigger the war and ultimately take the blame for it (Geonosis was attacked by the clones).

But somewhere along the way, Syfo Dias was killed. "Tyranus" may not have even been known to the Kaminoans (probably why Jango didn't reveal Tyranus was Dooku, the Separatist Leader) but nevertheless, his selection (Jango) showed up to be the one chosen as the templette for all the Clones.

But back to your original question:

There's 2 possibilities:

1) Syfo Dias contracted for the Clones himself - which has to be because he envisioned them being needed (though he too could have been vying to be the next Sith apprentice)

2) Tyranus used his old friend's name, as you wondered


The end of it is that Lucas left this open so some other author can pay Lucas the royalties for explaining this in yet another licensed book. :rolleyes:

I think the most interesting story that could be written is that Syfo Dias also wanted to be a Sith, and Dooku and he competed for it, ending with Dooku murdering him and becoming the Sith apprentice. That would be very "Sith" of him.

Droid
11-26-2007, 10:43 AM
That Sifo Dyas business made no sense and ROTS the Sith didn't help.

And everyone says Obi-wan saying Palaptine was behind the creation of the Clone Armies explained everything, but no it didn't.

Yoda, Mace, and Obi-wan all knew of Sifo-Dyas. Did Palpatine kill him and pose as him? Maybe the EU explains it, but the MOVIES don't and they should. It was sloppy writing.

Even AOTC is inconsistent on how long Sifo has been dead. Some say over ten years. Some say almost ten years.

And the Rule of Two is stupid because no one can live by it. Every EU writer wants to have several apprentices or Sith witches or something competing to be a Sith. So you end up with a lot more than two evil Force users running around. So why have the rule?

Tycho
11-26-2007, 11:06 AM
They're the bad guys, Droid. They break even their own rules. Besides, isn't it like a Sith to manipulate someone else into killing their Apprentice or Master versus risking it themselves?

Vader and Palpatine each wanted Luke to kill the other. It was always that way since the OT in 1983.

Meanwhile, I agree with you about Sifo-Dyas. But "about 10 years ago" and "almost 10 years ago" are really the same thing "from a certain point of view." :D

No EU explains it yet, but George opened the door to make more money off some writer writing it. SW is more than his story he's telling - it's his commercial enterprise he's marketing.

El Chuxter
11-26-2007, 12:11 PM
Labyrinth of Evil, the ROTS novelization, and a few of the Clone Wars books (all taken together) outline the whole Sifo-Dyas thing just fine. Not a lot of details, but the basics.

Sifo-Dyas was a friend of Dooku. He foresaw dark times coming, and that the Republic would need an army, but knew he would never get the approval of the Council, since they were too busy waving their lightsabers around and getting bedsores on their butts from sitting in that circle. So he ordered it himself.

He confided in Dooku, in case something happened to him. Bad idea. He didn't know that Dooku had been flirting with the dark side for many years, and the recent death of his Padawan (Qui-Gon) had sent him over to the enemy. He'd learned of Sidious by interrogating the Neimoidians, contacted him, and become his apprentice.

However, Sidious set up a few tasks. (He was considering taking on a Jedi who'd approached him, after all, not the other way around.) First, he had to kill Sifo-Dyas. Then, he had to kill another former Padawan (who had left the Order and become a sort of religious zealot). And he had to find a source for the clones.

He killed Sifo-Dyas outright, and set up a sort of contest for the other two. Whichever bounty hunter was skilled enough to kill his other Padawan would be the source for the clones, and set for life. Jango Fett obviously won, and Dooku approached him with the proposal. And, as we all know now, Jango's one condition was an unaltered clone, as he was hoping for his legacy as an overrated fanboy icon to continue for at least another generation.

Blue2th
11-26-2007, 12:11 PM
Excellent write up Tycho.
Always wanted to know how Shmi got impregnated with Anakin. Your explanation pretty much solves that, if indeed true.
So Palpatine is quite old and was Plagueis' apprentice?
That makes sense.
I'm bookmarking this SW history lesson.

El Chuxter
11-26-2007, 12:14 PM
I also don't buy the entire "midichlorions created Anakin." Qui-Gon believed that and convinced Anakin, and Palpatine played off that.

Shmi only says, "I can't explain what happened." She was an illiterate slave at the time. All we know for sure about her is that she was kidnapped as a teenager from a transport ship. (Which is something that really bugs me--everyone forgets that this means there must be other Skywalkers out there somewhere.) She was probably drugged and operated on, likely while still in the possession of Gardulla the Hutt.

Tycho
11-26-2007, 12:29 PM
The recent young readers' book about Star Wars from Anakin's POV negates that.

The Skywalkers were in Gardulla the Hutt's posession a very short time before Watto won them. Anakin had already been born. He was probably 2-3 years old when Gardulla got them, and also 2-3 years old when Watto took them in a bet.

I think Shmi was born a slave (possibly). There's no information about her parents that I can recall.

When Kraayn the Pirate captured her in the flashback scenerio from Jedi Quest, she'd either been freed (very temporary condition obviously), or she was still a slave in the process of being transported to a different master when she was stolen. Or her current master - Plagueis? - was transporting her but not seeing to it personally, and his apprentice Palpatine, who seemed to specialize at coordinating pirate attacks, arranged to have her lost. In this way, Palpatine wasn't going to allow his master to create a replacement that would kill Palpatine to become the other Sith.

El Chuxter
11-26-2007, 12:57 PM
It doesn't negate it. It only gives a time frame for their slavery under Gardulla. Whatever happened could've happened beforehand.

Droid
11-26-2007, 02:27 PM
I don't buy the virgin birth deal either. Lucas may have intended there not to be a father, but for my money Anakin had a flesh and blood papa. Maybe the Hutts made sure all their slave women got pregnant so that there would be more slaves. Perhaps they just implanted the babies while the slave women slept. They didn't know what happened.

I knew somebody could explain the Sifo-Dyas thing as filled in by the EU (thanks for the writeup), but I think it is sloppy story telling that most of US don't even know how that all worked out. The average moviegoer had no idea and still has no idea what was going on with the Sifo-Dyas, Sidious, Palpatine, Tyranous, Dooku, Jango Fett situation was. Every part of the movie should make sense without the moviegoer having to read EU.

Tycho
11-26-2007, 06:31 PM
Droid, we're unfortunately the "fans" of Lucas Licensing.

Their ultimate product is their stage to sell us more products. Star Wars was a movie in 1977. But by 1978, as the merchandising started going out-of-control, it morphed that long ago.

Now, the untold story of how Darth Maul's parents surrendered or lost their Zabrack baby is fair game - for even action figures :rolleyes:

(A good Senator from Naboo might have told them he was taking their baby to be trained as a Jedi, and instead.... - or slavery could have worked its way into that situation as well.)

But Lucas didn't make these movies to stand alone for film-fans. He created installments into his marketing empire. What's the untold story of Owen Lars' real mother? I don't know if anyone cares, but if you want to write it, you give up a percentage to George via your contract.

So, NO, the movies were never going to make total sense as stand-alone products probably. SHOULD they? Probably. Was it a mistake or sloppy writing? That's still possible. But there definitely could be a reason for these "gaps" in the story that has more to do with making George even additional cash.

Anyway, Gardulla the Hutt didn't have her hands on Shmi before Shmi had Anakin. That much is even apparent by Anakin's dialogue in TPM. So a Hutt may have never had a hand in Shmi's pregnancy - though you are correct that this is not a certainty. E3 dialogue from Palpatine in the Opera House suggests that Darth Plagueis had a hand in creating Anakin, perhaps artificially which could explain how high his midichlorian count was. Plagueis likely had another name he went by (Dr. Jeckyl?) in day-to-day life, and he could have been Shmi's master with her never knowing he was a Sith Lord.

If Plagueis was a Muun however, Muunlist (where the Obi-Wan vs. Durge parts of the Cartoon Network's Clone Wars 'toon takes place) is IN the Republic, and possibly amongst the Core Worlds unless it's in the Mid-Rim like Naboo. Muunlist is the home of the Inter-Galactic Banking Clan where San Hill was prominent, and also where the IG droids were made (IG-88 anyone?) So both a Sith Master who was a Muun, and his human apprentice (Palpatine) would know how to manipulate the corporate interests to serve their purpose (the Separatist movement) and they just needed a Sith to lead it (Dooku).

But meanwhile, slavery was illegal in the Republic, so it might be hard for Darth Plagueis (whoever he really was) to have a slave - especially on Muunlist. So who knows? It could be a more interesting EU story than another one about the Death Star's contractors.

2-1B
11-26-2007, 06:45 PM
I knew somebody could explain the Sifo-Dyas thing as filled in by the EU (thanks for the writeup), but I think it is sloppy story telling that most of US don't even know how that all worked out. The average moviegoer had no idea and still has no idea what was going on with the Sifo-Dyas, Sidious, Palpatine, Tyranous, Dooku, Jango Fett situation was. Every part of the movie should make sense without the moviegoer having to read EU.

Honestly, I don't think the "average moviegoer" cared one way or another who Sifo-Dyas was, whether he was a real dude who ordered the clones or a real dude who was impersonated by Dooku or Palps to place the order as Sifo-Dyas.

Average Moviegoer is content with the "Palps was behind it" explanation...the only people I've heard complain about it are SW fans. Most people just don't care either way.

:)

Droid
11-27-2007, 09:45 AM
Can someone point out something as confusing and poorly written in the original trilogy? I can't think of anything.

Tycho
11-27-2007, 11:05 AM
Honestly, Leia did not have to be Luke's twin sister. That was a cheap way to resolve the love triangle with Han Solo winning her. There's a version out there where Han dies a noble sacrafice and that's part of the tragedy.

Leia is not Luke's sister, and Luke does end up with the girl in the end.

I think ESB and ROTJ's continuation of the story was revised in its concept stage there because Harrison Ford became such a break-out popular character in the first SW.

But there's no evidence in ANH that Leia is Luke's sister. The "I am your father" (in that huge galaxy) is a big enough coincidence, don't you think?

stillakid
11-27-2007, 12:00 PM
Honestly, Leia did not have to be Luke's twin sister. That was a cheap way to resolve the love triangle with Han Solo winning her. There's a version out there where Han dies a noble sacrafice and that's part of the tragedy.

Leia is not Luke's sister, and Luke does end up with the girl in the end.

I think ESB and ROTJ's continuation of the story was revised in its concept stage there because Harrison Ford became such a break-out popular character in the first SW.

But there's no evidence in ANH that Leia is Luke's sister. The "I am your father" (in that huge galaxy) is a big enough coincidence, don't you think?

No. There is a HUGE difference between a plot contrivance for convenience and a useful plot point. Had Vader NOT been Luke's father, the story would have been as flat and superficial as most of the second and third rate EU tends to be. Vader would have been just another generic bad guy with no past and nothing at stake beyond defending a generic scheme to "take over the world." That's Palpatine's role!

As far as the brother/sister relationship goes, it isn't a bad plot point either nor is it a "convenient" plot contrivance. Had Leia made her way to the DS2 to help Luke defeat the bad guys, then yes, definitely, her being "Force" prone would have been over the top. But as it stands, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the introduction of the relationship. As far as it not being mentioned in ANH, a great many plot points weren't introduced in ANH so to attempt to use its absence from the first produced episode is a red-herring argument. Whether it was the original intention or not makes no difference at all. Luke and Leia being siblings makes perfect sense and there are absolutely no contradictions created nor any contrivances in existence. The key words in your statement above are "I think" which essentially renders any subsequent statements of assumed "fact" meaningless.

On the whole, the OT is a well developed story at its core requiring no elaborate post-mortem explanations. The Prequel trilogy on the other hand, has numerous examples of unexplained plot elements and severe plot contrivances. It's just bad storytelling through and through.

Tycho
11-27-2007, 12:42 PM
As far as it not being mentioned in ANH, a great many plot points weren't introduced in ANH so to attempt to use its absence from the first produced episode is a red-herring argument. Whether it was the original intention or not makes no difference at all. Luke and Leia being siblings makes perfect sense and there are absolutely no contradictions created nor any contrivances in existence.

But the same could be said about the introduction of Qui-Gon as the mentor of Obi-Wan.

I know you'll say that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him - as it's explained in ESB's Hoth sequence when the spirit of Ben appears. But in ROTS we did learn that Yoda "will teach [instruct] him how to communicate with [Qui-Gon]. So that is wrapped from a certain point of view (in the movies). In AOTC we also see Yoda training a group of Younglings, and in the EU, he is an early teacher of all the up-and-coming Jedi, so that further supports the possibility of Obi-Wan having also been instructed by Yoda.

Meanwhile, Luke having knowledge of Qui-Gon's existence is rather pointless because Qui-Gon is dead and cannot help Luke. Obi-Wan thought it better to recommend a Jedi who was still alive.

Droid
11-27-2007, 02:10 PM
Tycho, any argument that references the EU to show how great the prequels were or how the prequels didn't contradict the OT fails IMO. I believe it should all be there in the movies. If EU wants to expand on the movies, dandy, but you shouldn't need to know any EU for the movies to make perfect sense. I assert that the OT made perfect sense and the prequels had things like Sifo-Dyas that you had to go to your local library to figure out.

El Chuxter
11-27-2007, 02:15 PM
Exactly. Stuff like Sifo-Dyas and the immaculate conception is important enough to warrant a real explanation. By contrast, the OT had unexplained lines about "that bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell" and "my little manuever at the Battle of Tanaab," neither of which really require explanation.

Tycho
11-27-2007, 04:30 PM
OT EU was expanded on in comics and the Holiday Special so far as Ord Mantell and Tanaab being explained.

However, there was not much OT EU allowed at the time of the 80's. It was in 1991 that Lucas authorized Timothy Zahn's novels (HTTE) to start their SW revival. Then it became a cash cow for him.

I think you guys are right - but for the market reasons I brought up before:

Sifo-Dyas, Darth Plagueis, etc. could each spawn another licensing triumph for Lucas, who's taken SW well beyond stand-alone movies. It's true they are not stand-alone and he is no longer designing them to be I'd think.

We're a fan of a LICENSING EMPIRE. It's no longer a film saga. I think that's a big difference between SW today and that of our youth.

Droid
11-27-2007, 07:13 PM
Think how much money could have been made if the prequels had been as good as the original trilogy and the EU spawned from the movies had been giving the audience a further glimpse into what they had loved rather than filling in the holes of sloppy writing.

JediTricks
11-27-2007, 09:48 PM
Labyrinth of Evil, the ROTS novelization, and a few of the Clone Wars books (all taken together) outline the whole Sifo-Dyas thing just fine. Not a lot of details, but the basics.

Sifo-Dyas was a friend of Dooku. He foresaw dark times coming, and that the Republic would need an army, but knew he would never get the approval of the Council, since they were too busy waving their lightsabers around and getting bedsores on their butts from sitting in that circle. So he ordered it himself.

He confided in Dooku, in case something happened to him. Bad idea. He didn't know that Dooku had been flirting with the dark side for many years, and the recent death of his Padawan (Qui-Gon) had sent him over to the enemy. He'd learned of Sidious by interrogating the Neimoidians, contacted him, and become his apprentice.

However, Sidious set up a few tasks. (He was considering taking on a Jedi who'd approached him, after all, not the other way around.) First, he had to kill Sifo-Dyas. Then, he had to kill another former Padawan (who had left the Order and become a sort of religious zealot). And he had to find a source for the clones.

He killed Sifo-Dyas outright, and set up a sort of contest for the other two. Whichever bounty hunter was skilled enough to kill his other Padawan would be the source for the clones, and set for life. Jango Fett obviously won, and Dooku approached him with the proposal. And, as we all know now, Jango's one condition was an unaltered clone, as he was hoping for his legacy as an overrated fanboy icon to continue for at least another generation.

I knew somebody could explain the Sifo-Dyas thing as filled in by the EU (thanks for the writeup), but I think it is sloppy story telling that most of US don't even know how that all worked out. The average moviegoer had no idea and still has no idea what was going on with the Sifo-Dyas, Sidious, Palpatine, Tyranous, Dooku, Jango Fett situation was. Every part of the movie should make sense without the moviegoer having to read EU.I posted a few years ago about this (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?p=445149#post445149), on the ROTS DVD commentary track, Lucas says it's "obvious" that Dooku is using the name to order the clones from the Kaminoans. It still annoys me that he acts like it's obvious - it's anything but! - and even his own approved authors didn't get it.

stillakid
11-28-2007, 01:20 AM
But the same could be said about the introduction of Qui-Gon as the mentor of Obi-Wan.

I know you'll say that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him - as it's explained in ESB's Hoth sequence when the spirit of Ben appears. But in ROTS we did learn that Yoda "will teach [instruct] him how to communicate with [Qui-Gon]. So that is wrapped from a certain point of view (in the movies). In AOTC we also see Yoda training a group of Younglings, and in the EU, he is an early teacher of all the up-and-coming Jedi, so that further supports the possibility of Obi-Wan having also been instructed by Yoda.

Meanwhile, Luke having knowledge of Qui-Gon's existence is rather pointless because Qui-Gon is dead and cannot help Luke. Obi-Wan thought it better to recommend a Jedi who was still alive.

As is said about statistics, you can skew any information to fit the conclusion you want to arrive at.

That said, everything you say above smacks of eleventh hour rationalization in order to try to shoehorn the events of the Prequels into the established continuity of the OT. The OT clearly implies that Yoda was Obi Wan's teacher and only teacher. That the Prequels show Yoda teaching somebody (kindergarten) and tosses in a last minute "lesson" in ROTS is a weak link to the original trilogy implication.

I won't go into the whole Qui Gon nonsense, but if he was such an important element to the saga, he would have been mentioned by SOMEBODY in the OT at some point. But like Midichlorians, Qui Gon was a pointless element and to this day, I still can't for the life of me figure out what Lucas had in mind when concocting the character. He has one purpose in the movie.... to die and give Obers an excuse to "get mad" and kill the generic bad guy.

I know why everybody and everything was in the OT based on the movies themselves. I can't say the same for the Prequels.