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decadentdave
11-27-2007, 09:34 PM
2007 will probably go down as the year of the repaints. Some make sense with regards to more film accurate deco while others (SDCC Shadow Stormtrooper?) have absolutely nothing to do with the films themselves and are branded under the general EU classification and feel like shameful attempts to get collectors to spend money on products they already own. With The Force Unleashed campaign coming in 2008 it appears that Luca$film and Hasbro and once again reaching deep into their hat of tricks to keep the wheels of the Star Wars money making machine going and repaints and rehashes are at the forefront of steamrolling out the new sub-line. Images have already appeared of the Stormtrooper repaint with red 501st deco. What gives? Obviously it's easier and cheaper for Hasbro to repaint and repackage products they have already produced but what happened to ingenuity and creativity to create something new and fresh? Why can't they come up with some new exciting designs we have never seen before like an entirely new trooper somewhere between a Clone and a Stormie? With the delay of the game launch postponed by 6 months could have worked in their favor to come up with some new interesting product designs. My question is; How much does Hasbro dictate conceptual designs to be used in game design and marketing and reciprocally how much control does Luca$film exert to the conceptualization and execution of campaigns such as these? For example, was the Shadows of the Empire sub-line more or less the brainchild of Luca$film first or Hasbro and how much of the line was primarily influenced and built around utilizing existing products i.e. Slave One as opposed to incorporating original design concepts i.e. the Viraggo and Outrider? Did Shadows of the Empire come out of a board meeting where some executive said, "I know! We'll use X, Y, and Z figures and ships and develop a story set between Episodes V and VI and we'll market in under the moniker of 'Shadows of the Empire!' Brilliant!" or was the story written first and designs conceived before any restrictions or limitations were imposed about utilizing currently existing products? In the case of The Force Unleashed, was the concept and story developed by the game designer first and how much of the game designs were limited by what Hasbro could produce for it?

jedi master sal
11-28-2007, 08:50 AM
There is some truth in all of that Dave.

LFL gave some liberties to the game developers (GDs), however the GDs needed to remain within the realm of possibility for the characters. I have no doubt that either or both Hasbro and LFL wanted to use repainted troopers as they are easier, quicker and cheaper to produce. so that no doubt played a part in the game development.

Beyond this though I really would have to fault DePriest for all of the repaints. He was brought in from the GIJoe line. We never saw the amount of repainted figures before he came along. Yes there may have been some, but not on the scale we are seeing now.

I think Hasbro really needs to realize that people are getting a bit tired of buying the same figure over and over again, regardless of new paint scheme. This and the fact that if many of these repaints have no basis for being done, ie the movies first, then maybe comics, books, video games, that they are just made up to make money.

I can't speak for other lines, but Star Wars figures previous to DePriest had always had some basis for being made. (Shadows of the Empire might be an exception, I can't remember as it's been a long time now. And it would make sense if these were made up figures why that line didn't do so well. Also recall back then that people weren't too keen on EU yet.)

I keep calling DePriest out because he's the man in charge. He has to be responsible for the lines success of failure at this point. In the immediate the line is doing fine, however I'm seeing more and more people quit or greatly reduce the amount they are collecting. This in part due to DePriest's plans for the line. (Not to mention many of us just don't have the space for much more of this stuff.)

If DePriest can't convince his higher ups and the bean counters of what the fans want, and I'm including ALL fans, not just collectors, then the line will die much sooner than the 2018 licensing agreement.

There have been some strides in the last year or so, but Hasbro needs to keep things fresh, but not silly as in some of these repaints. Reinventing new ways to bring out older product is one way to do this. I happen to think the Ultra packs are a good idea. The cost alone is excellent.

That's my two cents.

Kidhuman
11-28-2007, 09:04 AM
While we had some repiants tis year(excluding the Legends line) we also got alot of new figures:

Revan
Malak
Pre-Cyborg Greivous
Hermie Odle
Kybuck(with yoda)
Biggs(deleted scene)
M'iiyoom Onith
Elis Herlot
McQuarrie figures(8 of them i the line plus 5 exclusives)
Lava Miner
Jawa/Lin Droid
4-LOM(SA)
Padme Fireside
Wolfman Jedi
Qui-Lin Vos
Assassin Droid
6 VTAC Figures

I am sure there are more, but its not all repiants and rehashes. Of the 60 figs in the regular line I have 22 listed there that are new. Some are kitbashed like Lando in Smuglers gear, Han with Torture rack, yoda(that came with Kybuck). Also we got cool accessories like a moisture vaparator, Torture rack, Curved pieces for the Cantina bar. This was a good year for us collectors. I dont think it will be known as the year of the repaint(like 2003 was the drought year). It was a good year and on par with any other year for repaints.

jedi master sal
11-28-2007, 10:28 AM
While we had some repiants tis year(excluding the Legends line) we also got alot of new figures:

Revan
Malak
Pre-Cyborg Greivous
Hermie Odle
Kybuck(with yoda)
Biggs(deleted scene)
M'iiyoom Onith
Elis Herlot
McQuarrie figures(8 of them i the line plus 5 exclusives)
Lava Miner
Jawa/Lin Droid
4-LOM(SA)
Padme Fireside
Wolfman Jedi
Qui-Lin Vos
Assassin Droid
6 VTAC Figures

I am sure there are more, but its not all repiants and rehashes. Of the 60 figs in the regular line I have 22 listed there that are new. Some are kitbashed like Lando in Smuglers gear, Han with Torture rack, yoda(that came with Kybuck). Also we got cool accessories like a moisture vaparator, Torture rack, Curved pieces for the Cantina bar. This was a good year for us collectors. I dont think it will be known as the year of the repaint(like 2003 was the drought year). It was a good year and on par with any other year for repaints.

For TAC, I'd agree. But it's the addition of the Legends line and some of the battlepack sets as repacks, plus the Mando sets, Battlefront sets, some of the other battlepack sets as repaints that makes this year ok. Not stellar.

The McQuarrie sub-line helped, but as far as we know Hasbro doesn't have anything planned like this for 2008. The Force Unleashed sub-line isn't the same in my book. There's nostalgia with the McLine and the concepts have been around for more than 30 years. TFU is something new and definitely money driven as it's main focus.

Honestly, if TFU was never made, would any of us panic? If the game was never developed and the subsequent toy and other type tie-ins made, it just wouldn't matter.
So for me, I'm approaching this line gingerly and not with much expectation. The game may be good, and so to the figures, but it won't hold as much weight as the movies or even the tv shows, so I'll let my collecting of this sub-line reflect that by not buying as much of it.

JON9000
11-29-2007, 10:17 AM
For TAC, I'd agree. But it's the addition of the Legends line and some of the battlepack sets as repacks, plus the Mando sets, Battlefront sets, some of the other battlepack sets as repaints that makes this year ok. Not stellar.

Sal, are you saying that the Legends line makes the year worse than it otherwise would have been? I disagree wholeheartedly. More product is better. I am pleased as punch that I was able to get SA Fett, RA-7, some color variety in Sandy, droid 2-packs, Biker scouts and much more. And next year, I'm gonna be even more pleased to get that snowspeeder Luke on a card, the Y-wing guy on a card, and some more VTSC that everybody else overpaid for. I find 2007 Legends to be a quantum improvement over 2006 sublines, and I hope it keeps up this way so everybody can get the McQuarrie figures I know they are going to miss this year.


2007 will probably go down as the year of the repaints. Some make sense with regards to more film accurate deco while others (SDCC Shadow Stormtrooper?) have absolutely nothing to do with the films themselves and are branded under the general EU classification and feel like shameful attempts to get collectors to spend money on products they already own. With The Force Unleashed campaign coming in 2008 it appears that Luca$film and Hasbro and once again reaching deep into their hat of tricks to keep the wheels of the Star Wars money making machine going and repaints and rehashes are at the forefront of steamrolling out the new sub-line. Images have already appeared of the Stormtrooper repaint with red 501st deco. What gives? Obviously it's easier and cheaper for Hasbro to repaint and repackage products they have already produced but what happened to ingenuity and creativity to create something new and fresh? Why can't they come up with some new exciting designs we have never seen before like an entirely new trooper somewhere between a Clone and a Stormie?

This conversation keeps coming up, and I never completely understand it.

1. nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything. Therefore, there is no fleecing, stealing, robbing going on.

If you think a repaint is stupid and a crass attempt to get money out of you *don't* buy it.

Your post sounds like this: "I don't want to spend money on figures that have different paint schemes as their only unique feature, but if Hasbro makes it, I have to buy it, and it isn't fair!" If you are a "completeist" maybe you should consider getting help. I did back when green cards came out in 96-97 and I saved thousands.

Quite frankly, if Hasbro puts out the number of all-new figures Kidhuman points out, that's more than enough for me, and likely all they have capacity to make.

2. Hasbro is in business to make money, and repaints are a nice way to do it.

3. Rehashes (not repaints) keep the line healthy. Not everybody has been collecting for 10 years, and if 60 odd new figs isn't enough for you, and you feel as though Legends is choking off the space, well, I sure see a helluva a lot of Marines and Airbornes on the shelves, too.


For example, was the Shadows of the Empire sub-line more or less the brainchild of Luca$film first or Hasbro and how much of the line was primarily influenced and built around utilizing existing products i.e. Slave One as opposed to incorporating original design concepts i.e. the Viraggo and Outrider? Did Shadows of the Empire come out of a board meeting where some executive said, "I know! We'll use X, Y, and Z figures and ships and develop a story set between Episodes V and VI and we'll market in under the moniker of 'Shadows of the Empire!' Brilliant!" or was the story written first and designs conceived before any restrictions or limitations were imposed about utilizing currently existing products? In the case of The Force Unleashed, was the concept and story developed by the game designer first and how much of the game designs were limited by what Hasbro could produce for it?

Okay, you rag on the new game trooper for being a simple repaint and then complain because you want more original designs (even when Hasbro released a bunch last year), and you bring up SOTE.

SOTE is the worst example you could have picked if you want to complain. Almost all of the figures were completely new designs. Slave I had not yet been released in the modern line, and was a sweet-as-hell toy at the time. What did Kenner get for all of this innovation? A line that sold for crapola, that's what. Kids ignored the line because they didn't recognize the product. If all of that new stuff had actually sold, we would have a Guri, Virago, and all that stuff.

It seems to me collectors only want new, unique stuff, because they have this urge to buy everything; and then begrudge the more casual collector or kid who wants core characters or things he might have missed at a better price point when Hasbro does the natural thing and serves them as well. Back in 95, I could have dealth with you having this problem a little better, because with only 10-20 figs a year, you really don't want rehashes. But with 60 plus new figures, it gets a little lame.

Hard core collectors: I'm glad we have legends, I don't care about EU repaints because I don't buy them, and while your wants are very important, the world does not revolve around them. There's a big enough tent for everybody.

jedi master sal
11-29-2007, 11:10 AM
What I'm saying about the Legends line is that many of the figures were not needed so soon again. They are keeping the last 3 waves from being stocked on pegs (regardless of what Hasbro says about seperate numbers).

There is quite an excess of Legends figures all over. Even army building type figures are pegging bad.

There could have been some better solutions to this.
1) Less figures in the Legends line-take out those core characters that have been released before that were going to be released in the TAC line as a different version-Hello Vader...
2) less production of these figures. Still have them, just less of, so you can get the new product out there.
3) shorter window of time for these to hit shelves.
4) clear and seperate design of card to deliniate that they are DIFFERENT lines. they are too close now and most stock people don't see or care to see a difference.
5) enforce that TAC and Legends are different lines and only a set amount of pegs are devoted to each (hard to enforce this one)
6) instead of single carding these, make them battle packs for $20 or $25 for 5 figures. cheaper is better for the customer and they may have moved more product.
7) sell the Legends line cheaper to begin with since there was virtually no research and development for these figs.
8) don't worry about the scratched coins...seriously, I could give a rat's arse if there is a scratch. Besides, Hasbro was supposed to have a coin replacement program, did that ever come to light? NO. I think they just used this as an excuse for why the figures were delayed or shipping so slowly during the summer.

I don't really see people scrambling for Legends figures. Army builders (including myself) have had their fill of these. Heck the only one I really want now is the Darktrooper and then only for the cardback and coin. Yes it's nice to have figures on the pegs, even troops so everyone gets a chance. But at the cost of NEW figures? I think many would rather have new figs than the umpteenth release of Yoda, ROTS clone, etc.

Conversely waves 7, 7.5, and 8 are extremely hard to find. This is in part due to the timing. Having to "compete" with holiday shoppers always makes this hard for the last few waves. However had these been released even a month earlier, we collectors would have what we wanted and the rest could then have been bought up by the holiday shoppers.

Sorry for the long post. (It's really more directed towards Hasbro than as a rebuttal to Jon.)

I can only hope that the holiday shoppers will buy up all of the Legends stuff.
-Sal

JON9000
11-29-2007, 11:24 AM
Frankly, I'm about sick of Vader as well, and Bousch was just out. As for troop building, I am truly surprised to see Ep 2 white SA clones staying around. I never got any, and their aftermarket value indicated to me that they would be big sellers.

As for your holiday wish, it may come true. I remember last year pegs were bare. I know that's because there was no new product released for a few months after, but it demonstrated that the line, all of it, sells when the X-mas chips are down.

decadentdave
11-29-2007, 02:31 PM
S


This conversation keeps coming up, and I never completely understand it.

1. nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything. Therefore, there is no fleecing, stealing, robbing going on.

If you think a repaint is stupid and a crass attempt to get money out of you *don't* buy it.

Your post sounds like this: "I don't want to spend money on figures that have different paint schemes as their only unique feature, but if Hasbro makes it, I have to buy it, and it isn't fair!" If you are a "completeist" maybe you should consider getting help. I did back when green cards came out in 96-97 and I saved thousands.

Quite frankly, if Hasbro puts out the number of all-new figures Kidhuman points out, that's more than enough for me, and likely all they have capacity to make.

2. Hasbro is in business to make money, and repaints are a nice way to do it.

3. Rehashes (not repaints) keep the line healthy. Not everybody has been collecting for 10 years, and if 60 odd new figs isn't enough for you, and you feel as though Legends is choking off the space, well, I sure see a helluva a lot of Marines and Airbornes on the shelves, too.



Okay, you rag on the new game trooper for being a simple repaint and then complain because you want more original designs (even when Hasbro released a bunch last year), and you bring up SOTE.

SOTE is the worst example you could have picked if you want to complain. Almost all of the figures were completely new designs. Slave I had not yet been released in the modern line, and was a sweet-as-hell toy at the time. What did Kenner get for all of this innovation? A line that sold for crapola, that's what. Kids ignored the line because they didn't recognize the product. If all of that new stuff had actually sold, we would have a Guri, Virago, and all that stuff.

It seems to me collectors only want new, unique stuff, because they have this urge to buy everything; and then begrudge the more casual collector or kid who wants core characters or things he might have missed at a better price point when Hasbro does the natural thing and serves them as well. Back in 95, I could have dealth with you having this problem a little better, because with only 10-20 figs a year, you really don't want rehashes. But with 60 plus new figures, it gets a little lame.

Hard core collectors: I'm glad we have legends, I don't care about EU repaints because I don't buy them, and while your wants are very important, the world does not revolve around them. There's a big enough tent for everybody.

I have now "cured" myself of completist sickness but you cannot deny that Hasbro exploits this by trying to take advantage of collector habits by "engineering" repaints, repackages, and variations within the lines. Take the comic book 2-packs for example: We have new repaints of Stormtrooper Luke and Han and Tarkin with Stormie now with clean white deco instead of the blue shading. We also got a running change on the Vader comic book deco. You know this was done deliberately. It ****es me off because I think the clean white troopers looks better but now that I have already purchased the first versions I'm not going to spend my hard earned money on these to buy figures I already have all over again.

And for the argument that nobody is forcing you to spend your money, no s#1t. That's why I have gotten over being a completist with this stuff. With the Saga Legends line and such pumping out a multitude of repaints and rehashes, there are some collectors out there spending their money buying every version that gets released. It's great to pick up a few more troop builders here and there but I'm not buying the 156th re-release of Vader or Luke or other figures that Hasbro tries to sell me all over again on a new card or with a paint variation. Forget it.

Anyway, arguing about repaints was not the point of the topic of my post. My argument is the argument of design. How are sublines conceived from utilizing pre-existing products that can be retooled and rebranded. A better example than SOTE which I only brought up because it was the first, would be the Clone Wars subline by utilizing existing vehicles like the ARC-170 and Republic Gunship, existing figures like clones and ARC pilots, and slapping a new paint job on them and are basically selling us the same thing all over again. Yes, I bought the Clone Wars re-decos only because I am a fan of the cartoons but even a 4 year kid couldn't be fooled by the fact that they are the same toys from ROTS just repainted. Now the question is: Did Genndy come up with the idea to give them the "Space Whale" (never understood why it's called a "whale" because it looks more like a shark which is more fearsome anyway but I digress) who then took it to Luca$film for approval who then took it to Hasbro who thought it was ingenious because it was an easy way to repackage products already in the pipeline and was an easy way to make $$$, or was it the other way around? Did Hasbro approach Luca$film or Cartoon Network and say "We want to utilize these specific designs within the context of the animation so that we can sell more toys?

Sinscia Fat'o
11-29-2007, 06:25 PM
Again someone cracks on SOTE, why? the toys didn't fail because they were lame, or not needed or even not wanted for that matter, the toys failed because the line was WAY to young to handle them making new characters like Xizor and Dash over much needed characters like The Emperor, Lobot, Cantania and Jabba's palace guys ETC...WE and the line were not ready for these figures, and SOTE and EU for the matter paid for Hasbro jumping the gun.

As for Saga Legends, Vader is a peg warmer simple and to the point, everyone and every kid known to man has a darth vader figure and he's just not needed out there right now, since you can walk in any store that sells SW figures and get a Darth Vader. But Leia as Boush is a hard find around here, even 3P0 with battle droid head is a hard find, don't even get me started on Fett VOTC or the Dark Trooper who i've seen at retail once since they have been out. Legends is a good idea to help collectors and kids get a figure they other wise wouldn't have gotten, hasbro made a good call on this line, and other than the packaging being so close to TAC the line is flawless. (Also not counting like 3 Vaders in the line either that's a scar not a blimish)

Repaints are a natural practice these days, it's just how it is. The EE Mando pack while all repaints and retools are cool and interesting (Got mine today), and i like the figure greatly. Shadow Storm Troopers are cool figures and are in the EU in different sources for that matter not just Crimson Empire. The Clone varients are cool because they made sense in the line, as do the Pit Droids color changes. These littel repaints and such are for collectors who want variety in their collection if you don't want them don't buy them. I used to be gotta get them all guy, but with the prequels AOTC for that matter killed that impulse and i enjoy collecting now alot more than i ever have. Hopefully Saga Legends will continue to offer people figures that were chase that they missed the first time around, Revan and Malack are good examples of this, these guys need at least one more run at retail.

decadentdave
11-29-2007, 06:38 PM
Did it ever occur to you that the reason why SOTE failed was because it was LAME? Dash Rendar was a poor-man's Solo and Prince Xizor was a weak-*** villain. He looked like a reject from the 70's Buck Rogers.

2-1B
11-30-2007, 12:20 AM
If ever there was a time for SOTE figures, it was the actual time they were released...right around the time of the game, CD, book, etc. They were just very, very goofy (Xizor and Dash).

plasticfetish
11-30-2007, 01:25 AM
Obviously it's easier and cheaper for Hasbro to repaint and repackage products they have already produced but what happened to ingenuity and creativity to create something new and fresh?Remember, you're talking about a company that's responsible for having created something like 1000 different versions of Monopoly at this point. They're not exactly ALL about originality.


Did Hasbro approach Luca$film or Cartoon Network and say "We want to utilize these specific designs within the context of the animation so that we can sell more toys?Who knows really, but I'm pretty sure that for the most part design starts at the top, with Lucasfilm, and then trickles down to Hasbro. Lucas isn't exactly a stranger to marketing things like toys, so it's entirely believable--even expected--that as he or anyone conceives of a new character, vehicle or whatever, they're taking into consideration how well it'll sell as a toy.

None of this is exactly a new idea. They've known for a while now that they can make money from this stuff. ;)

JON9000
11-30-2007, 08:48 AM
I have now "cured" myself of completist sickness but you cannot deny that Hasbro exploits this by trying to take advantage of collector habits by "engineering" repaints, repackages, and variations within the lines.

Deny it? If I were Hasbro, I would be doing the exact same thing. Mattel does the exact same thing. Why should I have to buy a whole new Barbie just to get the Astronaut gear? Thundercracker, Starscream, Skywarp, anybody? Howsabout GI Joe repainting and reusing? Or MOTU using the exact same body for every freaking figure with a different head? And it doesn't stop with Toys- movie studios do it, too, with special editions. There are dummies out there who feel they have to have absolute best, and they are doing what makes them happy.


Take the comic book 2-packs for example: We have new repaints of Stormtrooper Luke and Han and Tarkin with Stormie now with clean white deco instead of the blue shading. We also got a running change on the Vader comic book deco. You know this was done deliberately. It ****es me off because I think the clean white troopers looks better but now that I have already purchased the first versions I'm not going to spend my hard earned money on these to buy figures I already have all over again.

Decadent Dave- do you really mean to tell me you had no idea that Stormtrooper Luke and Stormtrooper Han would be released in movie accurate colours, especially given Hasbro's love of repaints and reuse? There are three possibilities here:

1. You knew it but were unable to exercise or lack the self-discipline needed to walk away.

2. You didn't know it and are therefore one who is proverbially easily parted from his money.

3. You knew it, bought it anyway, and looked forward to being able to moan about it when they were released in movie accurate colors.

You bought them, and would rather Hasbro not release correct colors just so you don't feel rooked, when you should have known better.


With the Saga Legends line and such pumping out a multitude of repaints and rehashes, there are some collectors out there spending their money buying every version that gets released.

Those people need Prozac. OCD is a real disorder. I am not joking, here.


It's great to pick up a few more troop builders here and there but I'm not buying the 156th re-release of Vader or Luke or other figures that Hasbro tries to sell me all over again on a new card or with a paint variation. Forget it.

Me neither. Why would I?


A better example than SOTE which I only brought up because it was the first, would be the Clone Wars subline by utilizing existing vehicles like the ARC-170 and Republic Gunship, existing figures like clones and ARC pilots, and slapping a new paint job on them and are basically selling us the same thing all over again. Yes, I bought the Clone Wars re-decos only because I am a fan of the cartoons but even a 4 year kid couldn't be fooled by the fact that they are the same toys from ROTS just repainted.

I still fail to understand why this is "bad". Would you like them released exactly as they were before, with no new paint, so you wouldn't be "forced" to get them? Frankly, Clone Wars is a cartoon, it's a kiddie line, and things are going to be candy coated to appeal even more to the young ones, which I find to be a positive thing, because the kids are the future.


Now the question is: Did Genndy come up with the idea to give them the "Space Whale" (never understood why it's called a "whale" because it looks more like a shark which is more fearsome anyway but I digress) who then took it to Luca$film for approval who then took it to Hasbro who thought it was ingenious because it was an easy way to repackage products already in the pipeline and was an easy way to make $$$, or was it the other way around? Did Hasbro approach Luca$film or Cartoon Network and say "We want to utilize these specific designs within the context of the animation so that we can sell more toys?

I cannot imagine why it makes a difference to you, unless you are looking for somebody to blame, but I think it is a two-way street. Imagine the following conversation:

HAS: we know the new cartoon is coming out, and we need new product to sell. could you give the vehicles new paint jobs, preferably one that is eye-catching to boys 4 to 12, and will give the collectors a reason to purchase another one? We have some market research on this...

LF: Sure, we were going to feature the vehicles in Eps 2 & 3. We can easily change the colors to make them pop a little more. We were going to make Anakin's Jedi starfighter unique, so viewers will always know its him inside- can you make a new mold for it?

HAS: Sure.

Sinscia Fat'o
11-30-2007, 12:22 PM
Did it ever occur to you that the reason why SOTE failed was because it was LAME? Dash Rendar was a poor-man's Solo and Prince Xizor was a weak-*** villain. He looked like a reject from the 70's Buck Rogers.

SOTE isn't lame, and is one of the best star wars books written, dash is a little more than a poor man's han, he's a smuggler who works alone, and hasn't found his place in the galaxy. He's Han who never met Luke and Leia...Didn't you ever think what would have happened to han if he never the alliance? Thats who Dash is, and yes it gets more interesting from there. As for Xizor....Did you ever read shadows?

JON9000
11-30-2007, 02:25 PM
dash/Xizor

I felt that Dash was completely superfluous. The story would not have been one bit different with him left out. I think he serves as an example of what Dave is talking about when characters are created to make toys out of, although here they were completely new molds.

Xizor was a bit more fleshed out and interesting, so I can live with him. I thought the bit where Xizor has his Doctor Evil moment was hilariously bad.

decadentdave
11-30-2007, 02:35 PM
SOTE isn't lame, and is one of the best star wars books written, dash is a little more than a poor man's han, he's a smuggler who works alone, and hasn't found his place in the galaxy. He's Han who never met Luke and Leia...Didn't you ever think what would have happened to han if he never the alliance? Thats who Dash is, and yes it gets more interesting from there. As for Xizor....Did you ever read shadows?


I read the book and it was one of the worst pieces of EU crap I have ever had the misfortune of reading. The prose had the literary equivalency of a 12 year old. I guess that was their target audience but it's a real insult to fans who have followed the series throughout their lives. I was in my 20's back then and I thought it was completely juvenile. Guess it should have clued me in on what Phantom Menace was going to be like. As for Dash, he could never follow in the footsteps of Han. Even the Outrider was the Falcon-lite. Man, that whole story was sorry.

jedi master sal
11-30-2007, 03:27 PM
Huh, all this talk of SOTE. Reminds me, I haven't played the game in forever.

Droid
11-30-2007, 04:29 PM
I just can't believe that Hasbro has gotten away with making figures of members of their own staff but keeps trying to convince us that a Yarna figure is not feasible. Really. Think about it people. That is what has now happened. There are figures of the Hasbro team and not Yarna.

Really.

mabudonicus
11-30-2007, 05:23 PM
Remember, you're talking about a company that's responsible for having created something like 1000 different versions of Monopoly at this point. They're not exactly ALL about originality.

LOL didya see the recent article at theonion about a special edition "regular old monopoly" being released soon?? Kinda the same thing eh??

SOTE the concept is fine, the game was damn good, BUT SOTE the execution was an embarasing POS for anyone with any dignity. Crappy uninspired designs were one thing that kept me far away but Prince Xizor (pronounced "Cheezor") SUCKED ROCKS man, seriously, he was SILLY looking and was even dumber than the Admiral Thrawn character (that whole spiel about Thrawn "studying the ancient artifacts and art of a culture to learn how todefeat them"- DC comics has hardly gone that route and they dio some DUMB COMICS)

When I read that Cheezor supposedly gave off pheromones that made women horny I couldn't go on, that is the single most pathetic attempt at gaining the admiration of young horny boys I have EVER read- of course, it'd be like a playboy thing- "I only read it for the articles" being replaced by "I like him cos he's badarse- NOT cos he can actually get chicks, no, that's preposterous"

SO bad. Like what ypu want, but do have the good sense to understand when you're eating garbage- it can still be fun, hell, I watch them phoney CRAPPY 80's ninja films and love them, but I KNOW they suck when measured by any real criterion.

The main villain having sex-based "powers" should be a MAJOR flag that what you are "enjoying" is manipulative junk, period :D
:beard: Iso & Baws

man I should stop even thinking about the E F-ing U, Greedo as a drink- NUFF SAID

decadentdave
11-30-2007, 06:25 PM
One way to erase the abominations of the E F-ing U would be to do some kind of Crises on Infinite Earths and in some cataclysm resets the Star Wars Universe back to normal continuity and we could get some decent and somewhat mature stories going again. I'd go for that.

2-1B
11-30-2007, 06:35 PM
man I should stop even thinking about the E F-ing U, Greedo as a drink- NUFF SAID

I always thought that was one of the finer points, m'self. Think about it, a liquefied Rodian being stored in 2-1B's fish-bowl abdomen would make for a nicely spun Tale. :thumbsup:

plasticfetish
12-01-2007, 05:09 AM
LOL didya see the recent article at theonion about a special edition "regular old monopoly" being released soon?? Kinda the same thing eh??I've looked it up. VERY funny! We've been joking about that in our house now for a while, as our kid's pretty much at that board game playing age, and I'm really sick of theme versions of older games.

jjreason
12-01-2007, 08:34 AM
I think it's all about timing. Right now Hasbro is selling X number of figures per year, Y percentage of which is to collectors.

Y will be a higher percentage now than back in 2005 when there was a current movie out to drive the line.

X will also be lower for the same reason - fewer "new" buyers than when there is something in the media streaming kids/parents toward SW.

Hasbro can generate a lot of income with the collectors by re-releasing/rehasing/repainting (what I call the 3Rs) existing figures & vehicles - we've shown them that time & time again by Re-buying stuff!!!

2007 was a HUGE year for product - the number of figures & vehicles available under the TAC banner might be the largest in history if you include the 3Rs.

I agree, more all-new designs would be more alluring - I feel like I've seen it all before right now as well, but I'm looking forward to a few things from 2008 already - GG's ship for one, the all-new Deuce, etc and loved a few of the new designs from 2007 (the V-Wing first and foremost).

Sinscia Fat'o
12-01-2007, 03:26 PM
I read the book and it was one of the worst pieces of EU crap I have ever had the misfortune of reading. The prose had the literary equivalency of a 12 year old. I guess that was their target audience but it's a real insult to fans who have followed the series throughout their lives. I was in my 20's back then and I thought it was completely juvenile. Guess it should have clued me in on what Phantom Menace was going to be like. As for Dash, he could never follow in the footsteps of Han. Even the Outrider was the Falcon-lite. Man, that whole story was sorry.

Dash is a common smuggler in the Star Wars universe who was but in a less than ordinary situation, do you really think out of all the denziens of the universe Han is the only smuggler? There is quite alot of them Wedge, Ellis Herlot, even Lando himself were of the same class. Dash was put in the story because the story needed another character like Han, and to show that Han was exceptionable, and very much needed to the Rebelion...even though he was the every man of the group. To me that makes him the hero...which he was...and he did follow in the foot steps of Han, like him or hate him...he saved the day and even got the girl in the sequel.

Xizor, the pharamones was a little over the top, but it wasn't uneeded or even cheesey in my opinion, it gave him and his race something different to their species being the Falleen, which are quite a interesting species. Comparing Xizor or DR. Evil is wrong...just plain wrong. On to many levels to even discuss.

SOTE in general was a huge marketing explosion, and was meant for begining fans, and for older fans alike. They wanted to give fans of all ages a book they could read, so if it was a little under your reading level, you would have to understand it and Star Wars just isn't meant for you, me or any one person in general it's meant for all fans in general.

As for the crisis of infinite earths crack and all EU (What you called it is less than admirable) Thats one of the worst statements i've ever heard or read. Again Star Wars is meant for everyone who likes it and some of us actually like the direction some of the books went in, LEgacy of the Force is a very well written story arc, and has moments in it that all the holy movie characters are actually in danger...(Decatz whats wasa Lucas be thinks no? Enter Jar-Jar impersonation) But if you really want to see a reset of the universe read the Vong books, though not my favorite EU stories, they do what your asking for changeing the universe and placeing central characters in life and death situations.

I'm not trying to be an @$$ Hole it just seems like your ragging on things that you personally don't like and not exactly placeing a very strong argument why it sucks... I'm not saying your opinion is wrong it may be right for you, but when you say things that may lead other people in a direction based merely on your opinion your leading said people to believe what you believe without making up their own mind...not cool. Again i'm merely disscussing here and not trying to be a @$$ about it.

decadentdave
12-01-2007, 03:54 PM
Whatever floats your boat pal. I think most of the EU is a bunch of fabricated tripe that is little more than padding out the timeline of the saga and mostly contrived fluff in a very adolescent comic book manor that denegrates the continuity and lore of the saga and unworthy to be included in the canon. Even you have to admit that Dash Rendar was just a marketing excuse to stand in for the absence of Han Solo in SOTE. He's a low-rent Han, no more no less.

Neuroleptic
12-01-2007, 06:16 PM
A large chunk of the expanded universe in my opinion, out right sucks. But that's just me. I do like a few of the books, but I havn't read much that I liked since about 1994 or 5. Right around when Shadows of the empire came out, now that I think about it. I didn't like SOTE at all as a whole, and I was probably young enough to be considered the target audience for it (about 13 or 14.

I'll give this new little line for the new video game a chance. If I don't like it, I don't have to buy it.

As for repaints, I welcome them, because in my area it is hard to find ANY figures. The local walmart and target (the only places in the area that even sell star wars toys) are still cloged with the exact same figures. K mart's shelves are nearly empty, but they havn't re stocked their figures in months. He11, they still have 5 or 6 ROTS figures in that terrible packageing with the fire.

I can list them now without even thinking it. R2-D2, Mace, Obiwan, Super battle droid, Death Star trooper, Galactic Marine, and the Air borne trooper. Oh, and Darth Vader. That's all I have seen nearly all year other than some time last month.

On one occason (last month), I found the new storm trooper, the sand trooper, and the red ROTS clone trooper and just about literaly screamed in suprise. First time I had seen anything new since about JANUARY. None of those I had, even though I'm sure the sandtrooper and the clone were repaints. The only other figure I have bought this year was CZ-4, and I had to get him off of Ebay because I just couldn't find him and he was one of those I have waited my entire life for. Always wanted him when I was 4, still wanted him now.

Here, it's like that every flipping year right up until November when the stores on occason make a little more room and actualy order a few more boxes of stuff right before christmas.

Drives my wife nuts, because I go months and months and months without adding figures to my small collection, and suddenly she looks at my book shelf and sees 6 new figures over night. I usualy pull out the 'They were in the At-At' wich is where I keep my figures that aren't on display since I collect loose to save room. However, this isn't working any more :D

My point is, odd ball repaints are some times the ONLY WAY I will ever find these figures in the future unless I want to buy them on line for 4 times there cost not including shipping! With few exceptions, I am just not willing to do that.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 10:41 PM
Well they have just revealed the first full wave of Stormtrooper "repaints" including the Black Hole Stormtrooper re-release. Just what I thought, it's the Clone Trooper repaints all over again. Now watch, Lucas will go back and digitally paint in the color schemes in the OT in support of this.

JON9000
12-03-2007, 09:43 AM
Comparing Xizor or DR. Evil is wrong...just plain wrong. On to many levels to even discuss.

Tell me you don't remember the part in the book where Xizor has all of the goofy underlords assembled to discuss their criminal enterprises and disposes of one of them a la Blofeld in Thunderball/From Russia or Dr. Evil in Austin Powers.

Neuroleptic
12-03-2007, 09:50 AM
Well they have just revealed the first full wave of Stormtrooper "repaints" including the Black Hole Stormtrooper re-release. Just what I thought, it's the Clone Trooper repaints all over again. Now watch, Lucas will go back and digitally paint in the color schemes in the OT in support of this.


Where was that? I'd like to take a look at em ^_^

Sinscia Fat'o
12-04-2007, 02:56 PM
Tell me you don't remember the part in the book where Xizor has all of the goofy underlords assembled to discuss their criminal enterprises and disposes of one of them a la Blofeld in Thunderball/From Russia or Dr. Evil in Austin Powers.

At this point i do nothing but shake my head and say for the record...D&Mn. Poor Black Sun Vigos, they get no respect in the crimnal underworld, and now no love from the fan boys.

JON9000
12-04-2007, 04:53 PM
That's about where my experience with EU began and ended. The reasons should now be obvious.

Sinscia Fat'o
12-04-2007, 06:32 PM
That's about where my experience with EU began and ended. The reasons should now be obvious.

Because you don't like one thing EU doesn't mean you wouldn't like other things from it. I personally can't stand Return of the Jedi, but i still love Revenge of the Sith, Empire strikes back, A New Hope...But Return gets on my last nerve. But do i hate all star wars movies? Nope. I know different strokes for different folks but to say you hated Shadows so all EU is trash makes no sense.

JON9000
12-05-2007, 12:24 PM
Because you don't like one thing EU doesn't mean you wouldn't like other things from it. I personally can't stand Return of the Jedi, but i still love Revenge of the Sith, Empire strikes back, A New Hope...But Return gets on my last nerve. But do i hate all star wars movies? Nope. I know different strokes for different folks but to say you hated Shadows so all EU is trash makes no sense.

Let me try to put it in terms that might make more sense.

I didn't say I hate all things EU. I just said I read SOTE and found it to be derivative, cheesy, and written on a 2nd grade reading level, and I was so underwhelmed I never went back. Life is short, y'know? There are other aspects of EU that I am aware of, just to inform you. I find all of the following to be totally stupid:

1. the clone emperor. The Paramount Sin. Completely cheapens the ending of RETURN OF THE JEDI and therefore the climax of the whole saga. Really, if that is indicative of the laziness, I'll take a pass. I don't think I am alone on this one.

2. World Devastators. Cheap rip off of the Death Star.

3. Dash Rendar, place holder for Han Solo, who is so obviously a cheap cover that Leia, in what I am sure was light self-mocking by the author, has almost that exact same thought.

4. Talon Karrde- how many mercenary guys does one saga need?

Notice a trend here?

5. Fett climbs out of the pit- pure fan service.

6. Awkward insertion of main characters into places they don't necessarily fit. Wow, who knew Han Solo and Dengar went so far back- what a small galaxy! (And, I know, the problem occurs in the prequels as well.)

Frankly, EU has grown so huge, and what I do know about it is so lame to me, why should I bother searching through the morass to find a gem? Now, you may think EU is peaches and cream, and that is fine, to each his own... but when I make the point that Xizor is Dr. Evil, be assured I can back the statement up before telling me I am wrong when I am oh-so-right.

Sinscia Fat'o
12-05-2007, 03:08 PM
Frankly, EU has grown so huge, and what I do know about it is so lame to me, why should I bother searching through the morass to find a gem? Now, you may think EU is peaches and cream, and that is fine, to each his own... but when I make the point that Xizor is Dr. Evil, be assured I can back the statement up before telling me I am wrong when I am oh-so-right.

I will admit to you that Xizor is Dr Evil when he as a midget Falleen riding a tricycle with his finger over his mouth...I will admit to you that Xizor is DR Evil when Seth Green makes a episode of Robot chicken paroding Shadows of the Empire and stars in the episode himself as Xizor's and Leia's bastard son. I will admit that Xizor is Dr Evil when Xizor holds up the Republic for a hudred million dollars...By the way what did you back up? I didn't see anything do i need special EU sucks only glasses to see it?

Though we do agree on a few things.
The Clone Emperor, Not one of my favorite ideas either, but it was a cool story, though the story could have been a lot better without the clone and a new sith lord, or dark jedi.

World Devastators., it's called Evolution. I personally loved these things.

Dash...I'm not going into why Dash is the man. Read any of my other posts.

Talon Karde? WTF!? Talon is a smuggler and business man, he's very different than Han or Dash. Your statement about how many more mercs. does a saga need, is like asking how many jedi the prequels needed. Not everyone can be a stormtrooper, Jedi, princess, bounty hunter, brash pilot, ETC Does the saga have to many Brash pilots as well...I mean heaven forbid if Lucas decided Rogue Squadron isn't the only squadron in the saga...(Which we all know they are not.)

Yep...Big trend by this point.

Fett Didn't just climb out of the Sarlac pit. He escaped the Sarlac pit the climbing part was optional, because he's Boba Fett....Even Lucas said he escaped the pit, and got out...The creator himself was cool with this idea, was it to appeal to the fans, yes your correct it was. But whats wrong with that? If people like Fett and he's going to keep people coming back to Star Wars, then by all means...have the rogue find a way out..it's not like Lucas saying well everyone liked Darth Maul, so lets say it was a clone of the real Darth Maul that Obi Wan killed in TPM...Kinda different, Fett fell inside a creature, Maul was cut in-half, Dooku got scissor sliced, Bell got blown up, Jek Porkins got vaporized, ETC...Which one of those characters makes sense to bring back? (Note the Jek Porkins crack was a bit of humor, since i have never heard anyone crying to bring back the fat man.)

"Awkward insertion of main characters into places..." Dengar and Han is a perfect example of what the EU writers done to make Dengar apart of the saga, and one of the things that makes the story behind the characters so cool. Whats wrong with Dengar having a back ground that has Solo in it? It's called characterzation in some forms, though i call it spider webing, meaning it's a trick to tie characters together to tell smaller storys that tell a larger one. Whats wrong with that?

Again other than simple naming of a few aspects of the EU/Saga you don't like what did you prove, And if these few statements you have provided keeps you from exploring the history of the movies (And the Future) then i feel sorry for you, though please don't take it as if i'm saying every piece of EU is great, trust me it's not... Splinters of the Mind's eye, Star Wars Legacy (The comic series), Boba Fett TEOD, some of the Young Jedi Knight books, though 90% of them were really good.