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View Full Version : Infecting the Original Trilogy



stillakid
11-29-2007, 11:58 AM
For me anyway, the Original Trilogy of films is far superior to the Prequels for a variety of reasons. I'm not a big fan of the story or the acting or some of the elements introduced in the Prequels. However, like the OT before it, the production design is still interesting and, for the most part, manages to translate into cool toys.


That said, up til now, I've been able to separate my toy collection according to the trilogies. While opening the Battle of Hoth Battle Pack from Target, a Snowtrooper's helmet fell off revealing a Jango head. WTF?! I mean, it's bad enough that the OT was reedited to include the useless and gratuitous shot of Spirit Whine-akin at the end of ROTJ. But seriously, does Hasbro have to infect the OT toys with the stink of the Prequels too? Who's responsible for this!? :mad:

TheRealDubya
11-29-2007, 12:08 PM
Who's responsible for this!? :mad:

I think that one guy, with the beard, who created all six movies, and sees them as one, big story. I forget his name, but I think he's responsible. :thumbsup:

JON9000
11-29-2007, 12:27 PM
While opening the Battle of Hoth Battle Pack from Target, a Snowtrooper's helmet fell off revealing a Jango head. WTF?! I mean, it's bad enough that the OT was reedited to include the useless and gratuitous shot of Spirit Whine-akin at the end of ROTJ. But seriously, does Hasbro have to infect the OT toys with the stink of the Prequels too? Who's responsible for this!? :mad:

I know what to get Stillakid for Christmas: superglue!

Dark Marble
11-29-2007, 01:55 PM
I guess in some ways I keep the new trilogy and the original seperate in my collection. But overall I view them as a whole and see the six movies as connected. I kind of like the original troops with clone heads underneath and do not have a problem with them. I am actually working on a display with all of the clones and Boba/Jango. The clone heads may not be cannon but I am having some fun with it.

jedi master sal
11-29-2007, 02:03 PM
SK, don't think of them as Jango heads. Think of them as a rubber mask the stormies put on to further fool people.....lol

stillakid
11-29-2007, 02:05 PM
I guess in some ways I keep the new trilogy and the original seperate in my collection. But overall I view them as a whole and see the six movies as connected. I kind of like the original troops with clone heads underneath and do not have a problem with them. I am actually working on a display with all of the clones and Boba/Jango. The clone heads may not be cannon but I am having some fun with it.

One day when I have time and space, I want to build an Emperor's Arrival scene using every type of trooper there is from the OT, the Prequels, and even the EU stuff. So I don't mind there being different kinds of troopers, but there is no indication in the OT films themselves that all the Stormtroopers (or any of them at all) were Jango clones underneath. I just don't see the purpose of turning the Hoth Troopers into Jangos.

decadentdave
11-29-2007, 02:11 PM
I think that one guy, with the beard, who created all six movies, and sees them as one, big story. I forget his name, but I think he's responsible. :thumbsup:


Snow Job? :D

Ji'dai
11-29-2007, 02:28 PM
I find it annoying that OT Imperial troops come with Clone heads too, but I show my displeasure with this development by not buying them at all.

Fortunately Hasbro had the good sense not to put a Jango head on the McQuarrie Fett.

Beast
11-29-2007, 02:33 PM
For me anyway, the Original Trilogy of films is far superior to the Prequels for a variety of reasons. I'm not a big fan of the story or the acting or some of the elements introduced in the Prequels. However, like the OT before it, the production design is still interesting and, for the most part, manages to translate into cool toys.


That said, up til now, I've been able to separate my toy collection according to the trilogies. While opening the Battle of Hoth Battle Pack from Target, a Snowtrooper's helmet fell off revealing a Jango head. WTF?! I mean, it's bad enough that the OT was reedited to include the useless and gratuitous shot of Spirit Whine-akin at the end of ROTJ. But seriously, does Hasbro have to infect the OT toys with the stink of the Prequels too? Who's responsible for this!? :mad:
Yes, we get it. You've only stated your hate every every chance you get.

You've reached a point where you're redundantly beating a dead horse.

For someone who hates the Prequels so much, you have a sick obsession to rant endlessly about them. Surely you have something better to do than obsess over something you don't like. It's not very productive and surely not healthy.

Beast
11-29-2007, 02:35 PM
I know what to get Stillakid for Christmas: superglue!
Get him a new stick for his 'Dead Horse Beating' hobby.

decadentdave
11-29-2007, 02:36 PM
I prefer the ball-jointed helmets anyway but there's still a "clone" underneath that helmet that looks like a New Zealand kiwi whether you can see him or not. What did you guys think was under there before George revealed it to us? That they were just a bunch of guys throughout the galaxy that were either conscripted or had joined the Imperial Academy? How could that many people be so ignorant to join an evil Galactic Empire and oppress billions throughout the galaxy? Oh wait, the Nazis did it. Nevermind.

Droid
11-29-2007, 02:53 PM
I don't think the original trilogy troopers were Jango clones, or clones at all for that matter, and I don't care what George or anyone says.

Notice not one of the troopers who speaks in the original trilogy had Jango's voice? Thankfully George has not chosen to go back and redub Jango's voice over all trooper dialogue. So I find it hard to believe that all the troopers who spoke weren't clones, but the others were. Strict Rule - if you are a clone, keep your mouth SHUT!

And none of the troopers/officers without helmets were Jango Clones. Sooo we are to believe that the Empire has a strict policy that scanning crew or workers in the pit of the Executor not be a Jango Clone, but a good part of our helemeted soliders will be clones, and Jango clones at that?

And to become an officer you start as a scanning crew member or other officer without a hemet, but not a helemted soldier, because we reserve that for clones?

Now someone will cite some EU source that says the Empire used a mix of clones and conscripts and that some of them were Jango clones and some of them were clones from other sources. Really, I just don't care. You'll never convince me. No solider of the Empire in the original trilogy was a clone or a Jango Clone.

And I won't buy toys of original trilogy troopers that have Jango's head underneath the helmet either.

And why does Hasbro give the clone figures red eyes when they didn't have red eyes in the movies? Stupid.

So there.

Mister Roboto
11-29-2007, 02:55 PM
Who is the more obsessed: the fool who incessantly complains about Jango heads or the fool who incessantly complains about the fool who's incessantly complaining about Jango heads?

LTBasker
11-29-2007, 03:54 PM
IIRC, this issue first arose with the TSC Death Star Gunner, as he was the first OT Trooper to receive the Jango-style head. I believe that when Hasbro was asked why this was done, they admitted to it being their idea. Although Lucasfilm but approve everything Hasbro does, nothing has ever indicated that Hasbro's idea = canon.

The last I had heard about Lucas' opinion on the Clone issue is that he thinks that yes; the Stormtroopers are clones. He does not see them as Jango's Clones, however, he sees them as Clones from several DNA donors and supposedly this is why we hear differing voices in the OT.

Personally, I prefer the idea that the Empire's forces are made up of individuals instead of Clones, but George's opinion this time is better than what the figures depict. I don't let it bother me too much though, all my Imperial Troopers are displayed with their helmets on.

Even if they weren't though, it's unlikely Hasbro would run head variations on something like a Storm or Snowtrooper, so if you unmasked your group/squad/army of OT Troopers they would look like Clones anyway. Just pretend it's someone who happens to look like Jango & the Clones, not all the Empire can be white British people. :p

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-29-2007, 04:21 PM
If you're worried about movie accuracy, then you'll never be taking the helmets off anyway. Problem solved. :thumbsup:

decadentdave
11-29-2007, 04:33 PM
For some reason the Snowtroopers removeable helmets reminds me of the KKK.

Bosskman
11-29-2007, 04:41 PM
They never took their helmets off in the OT so I don't see what the problem is at all. Who care's who's under there if the helmet is ON like all pure OT displays should look.

Luuuuuuke
11-29-2007, 05:45 PM
I love the original trilogy films. To me, they're great films, although in Jedi you begin to see Lucas slipping a little bit.

I think the prequels have their moments, but are pretty awful in many ways.

Having said that, I like the prequel action figures a lot more. I like clone troopers more than stormtroopers. So my collecting is geared more toward the prequels. But as to the movies, it's no contest.

stillakid
11-29-2007, 06:05 PM
If you're worried about movie accuracy, then you'll never be taking the helmets off anyway. Problem solved. :thumbsup:

It's more like a "principle of the thing" issue. :) What's the point of muddying the waters of the OT with flawed and/or poor Prequel concepts?

Droid
11-29-2007, 06:07 PM
The last I had heard about Lucas' opinion on the Clone issue is that he thinks that yes; the Stormtroopers are clones. He does not see them as Jango's Clones, however, he sees them as Clones from several DNA donors and supposedly this is why we hear differing voices in the OT.

There is much more in the movies to suggest that the troopers aren't clones than to suggest that they are. Funny how they ALL have different voices even though there are clones and they NEVER look alike when it is a trooper not wearing a helmet. You'd think that for the Rebellion to succeed there would be SOME mention of hitting the cloning facilities.

I think the original trilogy implies that the Clone Wars in some way revolves around the issue of cloning or a force that used Clones as its soldiers. By the time Episode IV kicks off, it seems as though the Clone issue had been resolved in the past, not "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. And once that was over the galaxy settled comfortably into the notion that Clones would be the primary troopers of the government."

It makes more sense that the Republic was attacked by a cloning force which overwhelmed the Republic and the Jedi for an extended period of time and more than one series of conflicts. Though the Clone forces were repulsed the chaos resulted in the end of the Jedi and the rise of the Empire. But no, I guess it makes much more sense that the Rebellion itself used the Clones but for some reason decided that a war that last three years should be referred to later as "the Clone Wars", even though the main army of the government continued to be clones after the Clone Wars were over. :rolleyes:

If the Empire still uses Clones then aren't the Clone Wars still continuing? If you don't refer to the wars by the enemy you fought but the soldiers you use what is the difference between the fight with the Trade Federation or the Rebellion in naming your war?

And isn't the implication that the Rebellion was attacked by an outside force in the Clone Wars rather than there having been a civil war made more clear by the statement in Episode IV "It is a period of civil war." The prequels showed a civil war. The original trilogy showed a civil war. Shouldn't Episode IV have said, "It is still a period of civil war." or "It is once again a civil war." or "Man, can you believe how many civil wars we're having?" Under Lucas' prequels there was a civil war between the Republic and the Separatists within Palpatine's government and then in the original trilogy a civil war between the Empire and the Rebellion within Palpatine's government?

I think we were led to believe the Clone Wars were a war with an exterior enemy while the Galactic Civil War was just that a civil war from within.

It SHOULD have been: prequels, Clone Wars, outside force attacks the Rebellion, clones are the main attacking force. original trilogy, Galactic Civil War, war from within, conscripts are the main attacking force.

In short, I think to suddenly say thirty years later, oh by the way, the Empire's soldiers are clones is extremely weak.

Sigh.

Sinscia Fat'o
11-29-2007, 06:54 PM
The OT is far more complex in story and in plot than the prequels, that much is a given. Though the prequels have a sorta allure to them for me, because of the characters and possiable new characters that can come from the endless amounts of story opportunities that come from this era, while in the OT really every character is underneath Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader, which is rather blah to me, but as far as movies go yeah the OT rocks the house the prequels are founded on, but to love one you gotta have a spot in your heart for the other.

As for the clones Storm Trooper issue, i think some fans take this a little to far, yes there are clones of Jango running around in that era still at least in ANH and ESB, but doubtful that many remained alive for ROTJ, but the Emeror did say he was sending his best troops to Endor to trap Han and his Rebel friends (so to speak), i like to think those where the Jango clones and the stupid troops we seen on Hoth or even the Death Star were civilians drafted or joined the Empire. So i think the answer to this question is yes there are jango stormtroopers, and yes i think there're non jango clones, but of other people, and yes i also think there are jonny roadblock who wants to be a stormtrooper in the empire as well. But if you really don't like Jango underneath the mask, just superglue the thing on and leave the rant about the prequels alone...it's a undead horse by now. Just because the movies blew and the plots were watered down pop culture nonsense doesn't mean you still can't fall in love with the characters, i suggest picking up a book based during the era of the clone wars, you'll see characters like Anakin, and the Emperor in a whole new light. Personally the books based off the prequels were far better than the movies, but that was just me, i'm the token EU guy.

stillakid
11-29-2007, 07:37 PM
But if you really don't like Jango underneath the mask, just superglue the thing on and leave the rant about the prequels alone...it's a undead horse by now.

Gluing the helmets on doesn't really address the underlying issue.

Apart from the bigger problem that the thread title alludes to, I personally don't want to glue the helmets on. It's cool to be able to take 'em off. Why? I don't know, it just is. And that being the case, since they went to all that trouble to make a SnowTrooper with this capability, it would seem a shame to ruin the feature just because some other dope decided that all OT Troopers should be Jango impersonators. If Hasbro keeps making these balljoint type heads, maybe they could release a baggie of generic multi-racial/species heads that we can use to individualize our troops to be more accurate with the established continuity of the OT. :)

Droid
11-29-2007, 08:08 PM
And why do the recent Snowtrooper figures appear to have sand or dirt smeared on their outfits?

LTBasker
11-29-2007, 09:01 PM
Anti-OT Clone Rant

I agree that the Imperial forces shouldn't be clones in any form, but I only brought up Georgie's opinion to point out that this whole thing is Hasbro's shenanigans.


And why do the recent Snowtrooper figures appear to have sand or dirt smeared on their outfits?

I'm going to assume that Wampas and/or Tauntauns tend to leave droppings around the place. >_>

Mad Slanted Powers
11-29-2007, 09:19 PM
I don't see a problem with there being Jango clones in the OT. Certainly not all of them died, or it is possible they continued to make more for a while. If they are going to have a removable helmet, then it makes sense that a Jango head would be under there since Jango clones were the original Imperial troops.

As far as the OT troops having different voices, the stormtroopers all sounded pretty much the same to me. They didn't sound like Jango, but they could be a different clone. Officers are less likely to be clones because the clones seem to have been created to follow orders.

bigbarada
11-30-2007, 12:53 AM
I would actually prefer that Hasbro stop making OT troopers rather than sticking Jango-heads underneath all their helmets.

I'm 100% in agreement with stillakid on this one.

2-1B
11-30-2007, 01:11 AM
You guys are giving Hasbro too much credit for the Jango likeness in the first place. Those toys looks more like "Henchman Holding Wrench" than they do "Temuerra Morrison."

Bosskman
11-30-2007, 05:56 AM
I always though, before the prequels that is, that the Clone Wars were fought by clone armies on both sides. It implies nowhere in the OT that they resulted in the fall of the jedi (hinting only that they result in the death of Luke's father, but that is quickly countered by the lie that "Vader killed him". I always thought that Stormies and the like were conscripts or volunteers, not clones. Having clones doesn't bother me too much but in my mind I pretend that the clones are just a few leftovers from the clone wars. That book Allegiance supports my theory and that's why I like it.

Old Fossil
11-30-2007, 09:19 AM
It's acceptable to have Jango clones in the OT. They would be among the elite assault troopers, like Snowtroopers, but not usually in positions of command. Many of the "grunt" Stormies would be newer (possibly genetically inferior) clones, but others (including Scouts) would likely often be volunteers, or even conscripts, since the Empire would be in a better position to institute a draft than would the Republic (hence the need for clones in the first place).

Pilots would also likely be mostly clones, with exceptions made for talented applicants like Baron Fel, Biggs Darklighter, and Han Solo.

Dark Marble
11-30-2007, 11:59 AM
I guess I never really thought about who was under the troop helmets at all. When I was little and first saw Star Wars I thought the Stormtroopers were robots. When I got a little older and realized they were people I didn't really think of them as clones but wasn't interested in their back story either.

As far as the clone heads in OT troops go, Hasbro is using a gimmick to make the toys more interesting to kids who are the main target audience. Kids get to see a face under the mask and get more play value for the buck. I think it is impossible for the toys to dilute the cannon of the movies simply because the movies influence the toys, not the other way around.

Droid
11-30-2007, 12:37 PM
I always though, before the prequels that is, that the Clone Wars were fought by clone armies on both sides. It implies nowhere in the OT that they resulted in the fall of the jedi (hinting only that they result in the death of Luke's father, but that is quickly countered by the lie that "Vader killed him".

I think that is a good point. They could have called it the Clone Wars because Clones fought on both sides. But I think with what we saw in the prequels it is more likely they would have called it "the civil war", "the battle droid wars" or "the war with the Separatists". I don't think with what the prequels were they would have called the one war we saw the "Clone Wars".

I agree the original trilogy does not imply that the Clone Wars resulted in the fall of the Jedi. It is really more implied (or stated) that the Empire was responsible for the fall of the Jedi and that Darth Vader helped the Empire hunt down and murder them.

So I stand corrected as to what the OT implied.

I think people expected the prequels to show the Clone Wars and the fall of the Jedi. So it makes sense to me that the prequels would have shown the fall of the Jedi against the backdrop of or the end of the Clone Wars so it makes sense that the Clones could have been involved somehow.

Tycho
11-30-2007, 10:14 PM
I don't even feel like starting it up again with some of you folks. Theres a few of you who have got some things SO wrong that I just can't believe this is how you interpreted the movies.

Maybe later. Maybe later....

stillakid
12-01-2007, 12:12 AM
Theres a few of you who have got some things SO wrong that I just can't believe this is how you interpreted the movies.


:) Funny, that's exactly the way I view Prequel-lovers.

JediTricks
12-01-2007, 03:43 AM
Prequels suck. Nuff said.

decadentdave
12-01-2007, 03:53 AM
Prequels suck. Nuff said.

I have to agree with Tycho on this. Most people are OT biased and cannot see the more favorable aspects of the Prequels. I'm an old school fan all the way back to '77 and I was devastated when Phantom Menace came out but at least the Prequels weren't a total loss. The Clone Wars were pretty cool, granted it wasn't about cloning armies of Dark Jedi to extinguish the Jedi Knights with Dark Side dopplegangers of Obi-Wan and Anakin creating a web of deceit and treachery that I had always anticipated since I was a child but at least to me the best part of the Prequels was seeing the birth of the Empire and the Clones armies kick so much *** over the clunky old buckethead Stormtroopers from the OT. I especially love the Clones in ROTS. They really made the Prequels worth it as far as I'm concerned. Bring on the Clones!

JediTricks
12-01-2007, 03:56 AM
I don't think you understand "nuff said". ;)

Mad Slanted Powers
12-01-2007, 12:54 PM
I guess us prequel lovers can be Bail Organa to your Ask Aak, then. "The debate is not over."

stillakid
12-01-2007, 01:19 PM
I have to agree with Tycho on this. Most people are OT biased and cannot see the more favorable aspects of the Prequels.

I don't think I recall anyone ever saying that there were no redeeming elements of the Prequels. The production design is great and there are a few good "video game" sequences, such as the Maul/Kenobi fight.

But singular elements are not an entire movie.

And it is not being "OT biased." That implies that someone does not like the Prequels because they like the OT. A ridiculous concept. That's like saying I don't like to eat lima beans because I like Cheerios. What's one got to do with the other? The Prequels fail on their own regardless of what the OT trilogy is or isn't. True, the Prequels also fail because of how they don't mesh with the established continuity of the OT (which is the foundation for this thread), but that isn't the only reason.

bigbarada
12-01-2007, 03:20 PM
I don't think I recall anyone ever saying that there were no redeeming elements of the Prequels. The production design is great and there are a few good "video game" sequences, such as the Maul/Kenobi fight.

But singular elements are not an entire movie.

And it is not being "OT biased." That implies that someone does not like the Prequels because they like the OT. A ridiculous concept. That's like saying I don't like to eat lima beans because I like Cheerios. What's one got to do with the other? The Prequels fail on their own regardless of what the OT trilogy is or isn't. True, the Prequels also fail because of how they don't mesh with the established continuity of the OT (which is the foundation for this thread), but that isn't the only reason.

The thing I don't understand about the 'prequel-lovers' is why do we HAVE TO accept them hook, line and sinker if we consider ourselves Star Wars fans? That's like saying that, if I like Jaws, then I MUST like Jaws 2,3 and 4 equally or I'm not a "true fan" of the original Jaws film. If a sequel or prequel sucks, then it sucks. That's not being biased towards the OT over the PT, that's being biased towards good movies over bad movies.

What I notice, when PT fans try to explain why the prequels are equal to or better than the OT, is usually just specific scenes or character designs. Well a good movie is more than just a collection of cool characters and special-effects laden action-sequences. A good movie tells a coherent story about compelling characters that draws the viewer in and makes them care about the outcome. None of the prequel films did that.

2-1B
12-01-2007, 03:25 PM
The thing I don't understand about the 'prequel-lovers' is why do we HAVE TO accept them hook, line and sinker if we consider ourselves Star Wars fans?

You used to be a lover, why not answer that question yourself ? lol

Speaking of infecting the original trilogy, I bought my first-ever coin figure today - Anakin Skywalker's Spirt from Return of the Jedi. :grin:

(haven't seen Hermi or 2-1B yet, so that's why this was the first)

bigbarada
12-01-2007, 05:08 PM
You used to be a lover, why not answer that question yourself ? lol

That's actually a good point, because I used to be one of the more staunch prequel defenders on this site. Well, that started to fall apart shortly after Ep2 when I bought the DVD and realized that I couldn't really stand watching the entire movie through over and over again like the 4 previous Star Wars films. But I still believed that George Lucas would vindicate himself with Ep3 and everything would make sense. Well, when the credits rolled on Ep3, i finally realized that Lucas was full of crap and didn't have this all figured out beforehand. My support of the prequels went "piff" and I actually lost all interest in Star Wars for several weeks. I never went back to watch Ep3 in the theaters, I was just so disgusted with it.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-01-2007, 05:36 PM
Speaking of infecting the original trilogy, I bought my first-ever coin figure today - Anakin Skywalker's Spirt from Return of the Jedi. :grin:

(haven't seen Hermi or 2-1B yet, so that's why this was the first)

Hermi's been kind of scarce, and 2-1B is supposed to be in wave 1 of 2008.

I don't necessarily think that the prequels are as good as the OT. I just don't think they are as bad or as inconsistent with the OT as many say. In particular, I don't understand how there is so much dislike for TPM. It pretty much mirrored the format of ANH, but with more of an ROTJ ending. I think that AOTC and ROTS are the ones that failed to make all the proper connections to the OT tie in neatly. However, they are still enjoyable movies.

I think the root of the problem that people have is that it is not what they expected. Anakin was supposed to be older, Obi-Wan was supposed to "discover" him, they were supposed to be BFF's, the Clone Wars were supposed to be something different, etc. A lot of your assumptions weren't explicitly said. For those things that were said, you refuse to accept that they are still true, from a certain point of view. TWICE in TPM, a character says, "you assume too much." Maybe this was a message to the audience.

Besides, regardless of what you think about the prequels, they are still part of the Star Wars saga as far as Hasbro and Lucas are concerned. If there were Jango clones in the PT, why can't there still be some in the OT? We never saw what they looked like in the OT, so we don't know what they look like. Just because they make a Stormtrooper that looks like Jango doesn't mean that all Stormtroopers look like Jango. Just because something in the prequels shows up in the OT doesn't mean it is "infecting the OT." The whole point of the prequels was to show the backstory of the OT characters.

I just noticed bigbarada's last post before I finished writing this. His feelings about the prequels seem to confirm my thoughts on TPM. He was a prequel defender after TPM, but was disappointed in AOTC and ROTS. That's sort of how I feel, except I wouldn't go so far as to say I was disgusted with them or significantly changed my feelings about the Star Wars saga or collecting the figures.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-01-2007, 05:50 PM
The thing I don't understand about the 'prequel-lovers' is why do we HAVE TO accept them hook, line and sinker if we consider ourselves Star Wars fans? That's like saying that, if I like Jaws, then I MUST like Jaws 2,3 and 4 equally or I'm not a "true fan" of the original Jaws film. If a sequel or prequel sucks, then it sucks. That's not being biased towards the OT over the PT, that's being biased towards good movies over bad movies.
I never said anyone had to like them, or accept them just since they're called "Star Wars." I don't know of any examples on here of anyone else doing this, either.

I, along with many other people, like the films. You, along with many other people, do not. Let's just all get over it. Don't watch them if you don't like them, and don't buy products that relate to them if you're only going to come on here later and whine about them.

Sinscia Fat'o
12-01-2007, 06:02 PM
Wow a lot of people defending TPM, thats something strange. While TPM was a movie that wasn't what i thought i was going to be, and in one of the previous posts someone said they quoted in the movie "You assume to much" i never thought of that, and i think Lucas knew his fans where going to back lash against him for putting out that movie the way he did, but Lucas done what he wanted to do, and for that you have to commend him for sticking to his guns and ignoring what we Jonny-Fan-Boys may think about TPM or the prequels in general. For me AOTC was the worst film of the whole lot, there was no dark forboding moment in the movie really, the story went forward but backwards at the same time, and connections with the characters where lost on majority of the audience. (This is just speaking from conversations i've had with other people.) ROTS though actually was a great movie and i consider it to be better than ROTJ, which was a very very large piece of fluff.

One thing they could have done to make TPM better would have been to introduce Count Dooku into that film as well, as a jedi, that way we would know and feel it when he went to the dark side of the force...his connection with Qui Gonn would have stricken us on more of an emotional tone, and he would have been more than just another sith in the prequels, but other than that and how the movie was written i think TPM delievered what it needed to by introducing characters.

stillakid
12-01-2007, 06:17 PM
Don't watch them if you don't like them, and don't buy products that relate to them if you're only going to come on here later and whine about them.

There are two issues in there:

1. Buying them: I had no idea that Hasbro and/or Lucasfilm was going to infect the OT characters with Jango heads before I bought the OT Hoth Battle Pack. All of the Snowtroopers were helmeted inside the sealed box before I bought it. If I see a Prequel "thing" that I absolutely hate, I won't buy it. The point here is that Hasbro secretly "infected" an OT element with a Prequel element with no advanced warning before purchase. So blaming anyone for buying a Prequel element for any reason doesn't fit here.

2. "Whining about it." : why does it bother Prequel Worshipers so much that other people don't kiss Lucas's a** and love everything stamped with the Star Wars logo? Or is it that Prequel Worshipers don't want to hear that anyone doesn't worship the things they like? As much as anyone can rationalize their own blind worship, others have the right to express discontent. That's the point of the First Amendment. Through expression of discontent, the hope is to effect positive change. This is COMPLETE supposition, but I offer up that due to the overwhelmingly negative response to TPM and Midichlorians, Lucas A) did away with any mention of Midi's in the next two Prequel films (in a too-late effort to salvage fan support), and B)commissioned the creation of the animated Clone Wars series in order to appease fans who demanded some kind of real story that he was unable to deliver on movie screens. So "whining" does sometimes have tangible results. That can translate to "whining" about toys in that I believe that Hasbro does listen to what collectors would like to see. I have no proof of one specific instance, but some time ago, I offered up a public suggestion for the movie names to be placed on the cards per the specific character that was in the bubble. Lo and behold, not six months later, guess what was hanging on the pegs? Was I responsible? Don't know, but maybe. The coincidence was uncanny though. "Whining" and suggesting isn't always just an exercise in a vacuum. Sometimes it can make things better for everyone.

Nobody has every suggested that people shouldn't like the Prequels. Have at it. But some of us prefer quality storytelling over bright shiny objects. I'm sure that many of "us" would consider us to be the "real" fans who appreciate what the saga is supposed to be and demand that subsequent films, tv shows, toys, and other products live up to the expectations set by the Original Trilogy and it's ancillary products. So if the films or the toys aren't as good or better than the originals, "whining" about them only proves that we are true fans interested in the highest quality for the Star Wars property.

Neuroleptic
12-01-2007, 06:31 PM
I do have to say, this is the first time I have ever seen people actualy come out and defend the phantom menace.

I was a bit surprised when I bought my death star gunner. I had no fliping clue his helmet even came off until I opened the package. I thought I had broken his darn head off the moment I opened him. Then I saw a rather . . . familiar face looking up at me.

I remember putting his helmet aside on the book shelf where he would be standing guard with my shuttle tyderium and restored At-At walker. I had to actualy stop and think, 'Is that . . . a . . . is that a jango clone head?'.

After a few more moments I thought, 'Ya know, that's actualy kinda cool.' I could see why a lot of collectors would not be happy about it though.

It makes sence that there would be a few of them left by the later series of movies. Weather they are ALL jango clones, I don't know. But at the end of the day, dose it realy matter?

I honestly think it dosn't matter who is under the helmet for the original tirllogy troopers. Most likely, it wasn't done to miff a bunch of fan boys, but to increase playability amongst kids. Id have LOVED to have had a storm trooper with a removable helmet when I was a kid.

As for the debate on the 'wich is better' side of this conversation, Id have to say that while watching the prequal trillogy, the only characters I actualy cared about were all clones!

I remember in episode 2, when padime and the clone trooper fell out of the little troop carrier, my first thought was, 'Oh my god! I hope he is ok!'. I mean, he may look like an adult and have 10 years of training, but in my mind all of the clone troopers are nothing more than 10 year old kids being made to fight someone elses war. That's preaty darn deap.

As another example, you got to wonder what was going through commander codie's head when he was told to kill Obiwan. It is a bit obvious that him and kenobi are at least somewhat friends and probably have biult up some comraderi.

True, they don't hesitate to do what they were told, but the did have thoughts of there own. I just think it would have been interesting to know what they were.

So yeah, the clones were the only people in the prequal movies I found any conection with. ^_^ Especialy since I am an identical twin! For those reasons, I am a big fan of the clone new trillogy troopers. But I can see why people would be ticked. As much as I love the clones (I truly need to get a shirt that says 'I'm really a clone' for the next time I visit my brother) the prequal movies were a let down and at times were rather painful to watch.

stillakid
12-01-2007, 07:00 PM
I remember in episode 2, when padime and the clone trooper fell out of the little troop carrier, my first thought was, 'Oh my god! I hope he is ok!'..

:) My first thought was, "Where did that Clone come from?" My second was after she yells at him to "Hurry!". I wondered why A) he didn't radio for help from his helmet B) why didn't they take the ship he came in if he did come in one (and we'd presume that he wasn't the only Clone in the ship), and C) after she says "Hurry!" she pauses then follows him to... where? if there's no other ship there, where the hell are they running to? If there is another ship there that brought the Clone, again, we should presume that there are more Clones in that ship which begs the question of why she wanted him to hurry to call for help, which again, why didn't he do it from his helmet?

None of that little exchange made any sense at all.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-01-2007, 07:13 PM
There are two issues in there:

1. Buying them: I had no idea that Hasbro and/or Lucasfilm was going to infect the OT characters with Jango heads before I bought the OT Hoth Battle Pack. All of the Snowtroopers were helmeted inside the sealed box before I bought it. If I see a Prequel "thing" that I absolutely hate, I won't buy it. The point here is that Hasbro secretly "infected" an OT element with a Prequel element with no advanced warning before purchase. So blaming anyone for buying a Prequel element for any reason doesn't fit here. Two of the snowtroopers are repaints of the VTAC snowtroopers, which already had the Jango head months before. Plus, if you only want something that is from the OT, then there is no reason for you to remove the helmet, because that was never in the OT.


This is COMPLETE supposition, but I offer up that due to the overwhelmingly negative response to TPM and Midichlorians, Lucas A) did away with any mention of Midi's in the next two Prequel films (in a too-late effort to salvage fan support), and B)commissioned the creation of the animated Clone Wars series in order to appease fans who demanded some kind of real story that he was unable to deliver on movie screens.But there was mention of midichlorians in ROTS. Also, I wasn't all that impressed with the Clone Wars cartoons. I appreciated the filling in of the story of what happened between Episode II & III, but the style was not to my liking. If Mace Windu can take out all those droids and that huge vehicle by himself and practically fly like Superman, he must have survived the fall in ROTS.


Nobody has every suggested that people shouldn't like the Prequels. Have at it. But some of us prefer quality storytelling over bright shiny objects. I'm sure that many of "us" would consider us to be the "real" fans who appreciate what the saga is supposed to be and demand that subsequent films, tv shows, toys, and other products live up to the expectations set by the Original Trilogy and it's ancillary products.And who decides what the saga is supposed to be? This came out of Lucas's head, so only he knows what it is supposed to be. The prequels just didn't live up to your (and apparently a lot of other people's) expectations of what it was supposed to be. I'll admit that after ROTS, there were some things that I felt should have been done differently, but this was not a problem with TPM. ROTS did have the one thing I did expect from the prequels: a lightsaber duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan near lava.

Neuroleptic
12-01-2007, 07:24 PM
:) My first thought was, "Where did that Clone come from?" My second was after she yells at him to "Hurry!". I wondered why A) he didn't radio for help from his helmet B) why didn't they take the ship he came in if he did come in one (and we'd presume that he wasn't the only Clone in the ship), and C) after she says "Hurry!" she pauses then follows him to... where? if there's no other ship there, where the hell are they running to? If there is another ship there that brought the Clone, again, we should presume that there are more Clones in that ship which begs the question of why she wanted him to hurry to call for help, which again, why didn't he do it from his helmet?

None of that little exchange made any sense at all.

Maybe his helmet radio didn't have a good range? I honestly don't know.


You know, all I thought was, Ok, good, he's ok. My point with my comment was, I cared more about the faceless background characters than I ever did about the main characters in the prequil movies.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-01-2007, 07:34 PM
:) My first thought was, "Where did that Clone come from?" My second was after she yells at him to "Hurry!". I wondered why A) he didn't radio for help from his helmet B) why didn't they take the ship he came in if he did come in one (and we'd presume that he wasn't the only Clone in the ship), and C) after she says "Hurry!" she pauses then follows him to... where? if there's no other ship there, where the hell are they running to? If there is another ship there that brought the Clone, again, we should presume that there are more Clones in that ship which begs the question of why she wanted him to hurry to call for help, which again, why didn't he do it from his helmet?The clone fell out of the ship with her. She rolled further down the hill. As far as why he didn't radio, maybe he did after they cut away from the scene. Maybe his transmitter was damaged when he fell. Maybe they had to get to a spot with better transmission. That could be where they are running to. Even if he did radio someone, they still probably want to head in the direction the hanger or a spot where the ship can pick them up. Anything's better than just standing around.

bigbarada
12-01-2007, 07:35 PM
Plus, if you only want something that is from the OT, then there is no reason for you to remove the helmet, because that was never in the OT.

That's kind of the point stillakid is trying to make, the helmet shouldn't come off at all! It's kind of ridiculous of you to claim that those of us who hate having Jango heads under the helmets of our OT troopers somehow have no right to express our displeasure of it. We buy the toys just like you do, so our opinion against it is just valid as your opinion for it.


If Mace Windu can take out all those droids and that huge vehicle by himself and practically fly like Superman, he must have survived the fall in ROTS.

Agreed, that was lame. The Clone Wars cartoon was guilty of irresponsible storytelling. If they were truly going to mesh with the live-action films, then they needed to make sure that the cartoon characters remained consistent to their film counterparts. That whole episode was a nice little "gee-whiz" moment, but it sets up some serious storytelling problems for the future.


And who decides what the saga is supposed to be? This came out of Lucas's head, so only he knows what it is supposed to be.

Well, if you really watch the films, you will see that not even Lucas knew what these films were supposed to be. He wasted time for 2 and a half movies, then tried to cram 90% of Darth Vader's origin story into the last few minutes of Ep3. He was clueless.

Tycho
12-01-2007, 07:38 PM
Oh brother. The reasons I'm not posting extensively in this thread:

1) I like the prequels; I like the original trilogy. It can all work for me.

2) What you all like or don't like doesn't affect me at all. Like it or don't. How is it going to improve my life by trying to "convince you?" It's not going to, even if I can "convince you."

3) I think I bought the right massive amount of original trilogy troops for my OT dioramas such that I don't need any more OT figures with or without their helmets on - and even if I did - to make my scenes accurate, their helmets must stay on. OH - check that. I bought 2 Wave 3 Stormtroopers to go with my Han Bespin Torture Chair and make a mini-diorama out of that, as I never planned on them making Han this way as it was, and thus didn't stock the extra stormtroopers. Well, presumably their helmets come off and Jango heads are underneath. Well who cares? I'm never going to take their helmets off. If JarJar's head was underneathe one, it wouldn't make a difference. There's an EU Stormtrooper with a Duro head under the helmet coming out. If you can't find another trooper any other way, why can't you use "Mouse" as a regular stormtrooper as well? What about extra Luke or Han figures in that disguise?

OK. I'm going to stop. It's not worth my time to discuss this.

bigbarada
12-01-2007, 07:50 PM
It's kind of funny because the "pro-Jango head" and "anti-Jango head" groups can be appeased by Hasbro simply not giving the OT troops removable helmets anymore

Those of us against the Jango heads would prefer that Hasbro just make accurate non-removable helmets.

Those of you who are trying to defend the Jango head claim that it doesn't really matter since you are never going to take the helmets off anyway.

We have the "hate it" crowd and the "don't care, because it shouldn't matter" crowd. Nobody seems to be arguing that this has added a significant amount of appeal to these figures, thus there is no vocal "love it" crowd.

So that settles it, Hasbro should stop putting Jango heads under the helmets of OT troops. Either people hate it or they just don't care, so what's the point of continuing the trend?

Neuroleptic
12-01-2007, 07:57 PM
Well, you see there is this one group of people who I don't see posting on here that are a fairly large buyer of star wars toys: KIDS. Just about everyone here sounds like adult collectors.

I am betting the kiddies just LOVE the storm troopers with Jango heads. Looking at them from the point of veiw of a kid, I can see the appeal emidately. It gives them more play value. I know most of the boys I'm buying for this year in my family actualy LOVE the new stormtrooper. Unfortunately, I can't find him here, so I'm going to have to send them gift cards to buy them with.

Thus, it dosn't end things since a large amount of the customer base dosn't comment here, or isn't old enough to be able to use the net. For what it's worth, the kids love it.

stillakid
12-01-2007, 07:58 PM
Two of the snowtroopers are repaints of the VTAC snowtroopers, which already had the Jango head months before.
Two things here: First, the box doesn't mention anything about these being "repaints of the VTAC snowtroopers." It's a non-argument. Two, assuming someone knows that, whose to say that we all actually have the original VTAC snowtroopers. Evidently I don't because I've never seen a Snowtrooper with removable helmet before and didn't know they existed before two days ago.


Two Plus, if you only want something that is from the OT, then there is no reason for you to remove the helmet, because that was never in the OT. I never said I only wanted something from the OT. You're deliberately shifting the discussion. The point is that the OT continuity never suggested at all that all of the Stormtroopers were clones modeled after Jango Fett. It doesn't establish any specifics at all, but they do come in different shapes and sizes, so we know indirectly from the OT that all Stormtroopers are not clones and are in fact individuals.


Two But there was mention of midichlorians in ROTS.
My bad. But they are downplayed. Plus, if they are so important to the overall story, why no mention of them in the original version of the OT films and why didn't Lucas include any mention of them in any re-edits of the OT films?


Also, I wasn't all that impressed with the Clone Wars cartoons. I appreciated the filling in of the story of what happened between Episode II & III, but the style was not to my liking. If Mace Windu can take out all those droids and that huge vehicle by himself and practically fly like Superman, he must have survived the fall in ROTS.
Exactly. The films and the cartoons are radically different. Why? If Lucas is the God of all things Star Wars (as you imply by your next question below), then why would he allow such disparate concepts to exist side-by-side? Your own supposition (that Lucas decides what is correct) is rendered incorrect by the films and cartoons themselves. So the only correct way to answer the question is to conclude that Lucas himself is wrong or not really in charge.


And who decides what the saga is supposed to be?
The established continuity decides. Lucas, Huyck, Katz, and other creative heads who created ANH established what the Star Wars story and other elements would be. ESB was beholden to that established continuity of ANH. ROTJ was beholden to the continuity of ESB and ANH. Therefore, TPM was beholden to the previous three. AOTC was beholden to the previous four and ROTS was beholden to the previous five. That's how good stories are told.


This came out of Lucas's head, so only he knows what it is supposed to be. The prequels just didn't live up to your (and apparently a lot of other people's) expectations of what it was supposed to be.
No, our expectations are not based on "interpretations." Our expectations were based on the established continuity and the other elements as described above. The only way to reconcile the differences in continuity between the OT and the Prequels is severe rationalization and "spin" akin to the skills of Bill O'Reilly.




I'll admit that after ROTS, there were some things that I felt should have been done differently, but this was not a problem with TPM. ROTS did have the one thing I did expect from the prequels: a lightsaber duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan near lava.
The Prequels as a whole contain elements that we all should have expected to see based upon the established continuity of the Prequels... only the Prequels didn't execute most of those elements according to the established continuity of the Prequels. That's the problem. Whether I (or anyone else) personally like or dislike the elements is immaterial. The point all along is that the Prequels were done incorrectly relative to the established continuity of the OT.

Specific to this thread topic, the OT has no suggestion that any Stormtrooper is a clone and because we hear different voices and see them as different heights, we can indirectly conclude that OT Stormtroopers are not clones at all. None of the OT films show Stormtroopers of any kind in a de-helmeted state (except perhaps the officer on Tantive IV who later goes to Tatooine), so we don't really know who is under there. So for Hasbro to take it upon themselves to "infect" the OT figures with a Prequel invention seems to be inappropriate.

It's cool that we have versions of Stormtroopers with removable helmets and armor, but making them all be Jango clones makes no sense according to the OT continuity.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-01-2007, 09:23 PM
Specific to this thread topic, the OT has no suggestion that any Stormtrooper is a clone and because we hear different voices and see them as different heights, we can indirectly conclude that OT Stormtroopers are not clones at all.No, you can't conclude anything, just that SOME aren't clones.


It's cool that we have versions of Stormtroopers with removable helmets and armor, but making them all be Jango clones makes no sense according to the OT continuity.Not all Bespin Guards or Imperial Officers look the same but we only have a few variations. Since removeable helmet troopers are a fairly thing, maybe they'll make more with different heads, or go back to making non-removeable ones. It DOES make sense with PT continuity that there should be some that look like Jango. At the very least, having the removable helmet gives you the option to customize an put a different head on the trooper.

decadentdave
12-01-2007, 10:11 PM
Considering Jango was the template and donated his DNA why shouldn't they use the same mold for each successive generation? That's not to say they couldn't have used some other donors' DNA blueprint but if that were the case then why didn't they just clone all of the TIE Pilots from say Baron Fel's DNA and have a fleet of Imperial crack shots?

decadentdave
12-01-2007, 10:27 PM
I don't think I recall anyone ever saying that there were no redeeming elements of the Prequels. The production design is great and there are a few good "video game" sequences, such as the Maul/Kenobi fight.

But singular elements are not an entire movie.

And it is not being "OT biased." That implies that someone does not like the Prequels because they like the OT. A ridiculous concept. That's like saying I don't like to eat lima beans because I like Cheerios. What's one got to do with the other? The Prequels fail on their own regardless of what the OT trilogy is or isn't. True, the Prequels also fail because of how they don't mesh with the established continuity of the OT (which is the foundation for this thread), but that isn't the only reason.

It's like the new Battlestar Galactica vs. the old one. I am an avid fan of the original and I am biased toward the original. I can't stand the new version at all. Starbuck ain't some butch chick and neither is Boomer. They don't really have anything to do with one another except in name only. It fails to appeal to me because the new show doesn't mesh with the continuity of the original therefore I am prejudiced against it. Same applies to the OT and Prequel trilogies and I have met MANY who are OT biased and hate the Prequels passionately. There are prejudices against the Prequels and biases toward the originals because George answered a lot of lingering questions that didn't satisfy the fans who had their own opinions and ideas of how things should have been. Or how about Old Coke vs. New Coke? What's one got to do with the other? Different formula, different taste, same name. Most people preferred the familar taste and were biased toward Classic Coke and sales proved it therefore Coca-Cola jettisoned the new formula and went back to the original. Ultimately, it all comes down to personal preference.

Tycho
12-01-2007, 10:32 PM
I still think Han Solo could have been a new (non-Jango) clone and for this reason he remains one of the only OT characters whose origin is not resolved by the PT.

Lando might be another one.

I could so start my reasoned theory all over again...

decadentdave
12-01-2007, 10:34 PM
I still think Han Solo could have been a new (non-Jango) clone and for this reason he remains one of the only OT characters whose origin is not resolved by the PT.

Lando might be another one.

I could so start my reasoned theory all over again...

Han is one of a kind. That's why he's Solo.

Tycho
12-01-2007, 10:59 PM
Yes and No. He was a clone separated from his squad during training, THAT is why he is Solo. He's also from a template that replaced Jango, which along with his insubordination, is why Boba hates him.

There's so much more I can write about this (and correlete it with all A.C. Crispin and Brian Daley Han Solo EU as well).

decadentdave
12-01-2007, 11:11 PM
Yes and No. He was a clone separated from his squad during training, THAT is why he is Solo. He's also from a template that replaced Jango, which along with his insubordination, is why Boba hates him.

There's so much more I can write about this (and correlete it with all A.C. Crispin and Brian Daley Han Solo EU as well).

Blasphemy! OK, I'm invoking "OT Bias" here. Han was an orphan from Correlia, not a Clone. This is why I hate EU.

stillakid
12-01-2007, 11:29 PM
It's like the new Battlestar Galactica vs. the old one. I am an avid fan of the original and I am biased toward the original. I can't stand the new version at all. Starbuck ain't some butch chick and neither is Boomer. They don't really have anything to do with one another except in name only. It fails to appeal to me because the new show doesn't mesh with the continuity of the original therefore I am prejudiced against it.
First the disclaimer that I haven't seen the new Battlestar Galactica, so I'm only speaking to what I've heard about it second hand.

That said, these are apples and oranges. As far as I know, the new BC is not a prequel or sequel of the original series. The way I understand it is that it is a reimagining of the concept. Given that, they have leeway to do anything they want to with the story, characters, situations, etc. with little to no thought toward continuity of the original version of the concept back in the late Seventies. I too was a fan of the original and may have made time to watch the new series if they had the cool Cylon robots that I liked then... but my "bias" toward the old version has nothing to do with whether or not the new version is any good or not. The new version is a reimagining therefore they have license to do whatever they want.

Arthur C. Clarke did a reimagining of continuity and established elements when he wrote the third book of the 20++ series. 2001 established a continuity which 2010 followed. However when Clarke wrote 2061 and wanted to change the established continuity that the previous two books established, he specifically wrote an introduction to the book which explained that A) he was doing that and B) he knew it and didn't care because he wanted this new story to be told in this new way.

Star Wars, on the other hand, altered the OT continuity without any such disclaimer attached.


Same applies to the OT and Prequel trilogies and I have met MANY who are OT biased and hate the Prequels passionately. There are prejudices against the Prequels and biases toward the originals because George answered a lot of lingering questions that didn't satisfy the fans who had their own opinions and ideas of how things should have been.
Yeah, there are fanboys out there who wanted to see silly things like Solo being a clone or what have you. But there are some of us there who only expected to see what the OT established what we should see, such as Yoda being Obi Wan's teacher. That kind of thing isn't an "opinion" or "interpretation." That and other story issues/elements are very clearly stated and/or udeniably implied and that's all we expected to see. When those things weren't delivered or were altered outright, that's where the dissatisfaction comes in.

In your language, I'm only OT "biased" because it is a well-told story. I could very easily be "Star Wars Saga" biased had the Prequels followed suit and been well-told stories, following the previously established continuity, with excellent execution in acting, production design, and filming.


Or how about Old Coke vs. New Coke? What's one got to do with the other? Different formula, different taste, same name.
What about it? Coke is not a linear story. It's a beverage. So they put a different kind of brown sugar water into a can with the same name as something older. So what? If you want to make that kind of comparison, then you'd have to consider the hypothetical situation of Lucas going back and completely remaking ANH from scratch and releasing it with the same name. THEN you could make the Old Coke/New Coke argument. But keep it quiet because all we need is for Lucas to get any more bright ideas!



Ultimately, it all comes down to personal preference.
No. Not really. I mean, personal preference is relevant when it comes to deciding what to like or not. Such as, I could see the inherent problems with a story or film and still decide that I'm going to like it. That's my personal preference. But my opinion of it doesn't negate the inherent story problems. It's a fact that the Prequels violate several continuity points that had been established. Of course one could twist logic around enough to rationalize anything, but the fact remains that the story wasn't told in the way that we were led to believe back in the Seventies and Eighties. That said, many people who call themselves fans have chosen to either admit the problems but overlook them or rationalize the problems away all with the goal of enjoying the movies FOR WHAT THEY ARE. There are others of us who don't want to play that game for the sake of enjoying all things Star Wars. I'd prefer to see a solid six part story that has no need for after-market explanations and rationalizations.

In any case, Star Wars batted .500 which, I suppose, isn't all bad. But we all know that it could have been far far better.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-01-2007, 11:39 PM
Blasphemy! OK, I'm invoking "OT Bias" here. Han was an orphan from Correlia, not a Clone. This is why I hate EU.The EU seems to make him an orphan from Correlia. If he was a clone that deserted, it would have been at a young age. If he is a clone, there is nothing to suggest he has had accelerated growth.

It basically comes down to this on the OT Jango trooper. Either you can make one with a removable helmet or not. People often say they want removable helmets on figures, so why not put one on a trooper. They have to make a stormtrooper with removable helmet if they want to make Han or Luke in disguise. If they decide to put a head on the stormtrooper, which head are they going to use? It makes sense to use Jango, since the clones were the forerunners of the stormtroopers and it is likely that some might still be around. So, from a continuity standpoint, there is no issue. From an economic standpoint, it also means Hasbro can get by without making a new head sculpt.

So, yes, PT elements are showing up in the OT figures. It's one big saga, so that is not a surprise. It only deserves the negative term of "infecting" if you don't want things from that inferior PT associated with the superior OT. You probably don't like it when the different foods on your plate are touching each other either.

Tycho
12-01-2007, 11:46 PM
Han Solo's Grandfather was Denn Solo.

He married and had twins: a son and daughter.

There was a blood feud within the family. There was a pirate called Solo The Black.

Denn and his wife fled. They had to split up.

The wife took the daughter, Tion Solo, who married a Sal. Thracken Sal-Solo is their son (one of Denn's grandsons, Han is the other).

Denn's son also ran. I don't knw what happened to Denn Solo.

The son, as of yet never named, could have become a mercenary and volunteered for cloning, to augment or replace Jango's clones.

Denn's son's clones could have included one that got lost.

That'd make Han still Corellian and related to the Solo family. His history with Garris Shrike finding him, his friendship with Dewlanna the Wookiee that saved him, and all his history in The Paradise Snare, Hutt Gambit, and Rebel Dawn would follow succinctly just fine.

It would work if they wanted to tell the tale this way.

Lando has less established continuity, but he could also be from a clone source or military training. However, he does remember his mother somehow. Whether that woman was really his mother is open to speculation however.

stillakid
12-01-2007, 11:54 PM
It basically comes down to this on the OT Jango trooper. Either you can make one with a removable helmet or not. People often say they want removable helmets on figures, so why not put one on a trooper. They have to make a stormtrooper with removable helmet if they want to make Han or Luke in disguise. If they decide to put a head on the stormtrooper, which head are they going to use? It makes sense to use Jango, since the clones were the forerunners of the stormtroopers and it is likely that some might still be around. So, from a continuity standpoint, there is no issue. From an economic standpoint, it also means Hasbro can get by without making a new head sculpt.
From an economic standpoint, you're right. Hasbro traditionally throws the same head on "soldiers" for no other reason than it would be overwhelming to make 100 different versions of something like a Bespin guard.

From a continuity standpoint, there is no evidence in the OT that any of the Troopers are clones and there is evidence that they are not. So using a Prequel invention on an OT toy makes little sense.

I like the addition of the removable helmets on troopers, but I would have preferred that they use generic faces rather than pander to the Prequel version of the story.


So, yes, PT elements are showing up in the OT figures. It's one big saga, so that is not a surprise. It only deserves the negative term of "infecting" if you don't want things from that inferior PT associated with the superior OT. You probably don't like it when the different foods on your plate are touching each other either.

I actually DO like my foods touching each other when they taste good together. Like mashed potatoes, gravy and corn. Mmmm! Heck, sometimes when they DON'T taste good together, yet I know I should eat the icky food, I'll have the icky bite along with something I do like in order to get it down.

So there goes that theory of yours. :lipsrsealed:


Let me pose this a different way: Why are the Troopers in the Prequels called "CLONE"Troopers while the Troopers in the OT are called "STORM"Troopers? If the Troopers in the OT were indeed clones, why the change in name? Hmm? If there are CloneTroopers underneath all that OT armor, then why aren't they referred to as Clonetroopers still? What happened to the designation and when did it change and why?

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 12:03 AM
But there are some of us there who only expected to see what the OT established what we should see, such as Yoda being Obi Wan's teacher. That kind of thing isn't an "opinion" or "interpretation." You always bring that up, and I must once again say that the PT does not violate that continuity. Yoda taught younglings, so he probably taught Obi-Wan at one point. He also taught Obi-Wan how to communicate with Qui-Gon's ghost. The length of time between Episode III and IV is longer than the amount of time Obi-Wan spent with Qui-Gon. If Obi-Wan was able to communicate with Yoda during that time, that's a lot more time receiving instruction from him. So, yes, it IS an interpretation. You chose to believe that the line in ESB meant that Yoda was the one and only teacher that Obi-Wan ever had. Even if it means that Yoda was his primary teacher, it still fits under these circumstances I've mentioned. Someone watching the saga for the first time in order from 1 through 6 is not going to think that the whole integrity of the continuity has fallen apart when they hear Obi-Wan's ESB line to Luke.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 12:06 AM
From a continuity standpoint, there is no evidence in the OT that any of the Troopers are clones and there is evidence that they are not. So using a Prequel invention on an OT toy makes little sense.No, there is only evidence that they aren't ALL clones.


Let me pose this a different way: Why are the Troopers in the Prequels called "CLONE"Troopers while the Troopers in the OT are called "STORM"Troopers? If the Troopers in the OT were indeed clones, why the change in name? Hmm? If there are CloneTroopers underneath all that OT armor, then why aren't they referred to as Clonetroopers still? What happened to the designation and when did it change and why?They probably stopped calling them clone troopers when they were no longer all clones.

2-1B
12-02-2007, 12:21 AM
They never called them Clonetroopers in the movies, just as they never called anybody Sandtroopers or Snowtroopers.

That's a Hasbro thing.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 12:25 AM
You always bring that up, and I must once again say that the PT does not violate that continuity. Yoda taught younglings, so he probably taught Obi-Wan at one point. He also taught Obi-Wan how to communicate with Qui-Gon's ghost. The length of time between Episode III and IV is longer than the amount of time Obi-Wan spent with Qui-Gon. If Obi-Wan was able to communicate with Yoda during that time, that's a lot more time receiving instruction from him. So, yes, it IS an interpretation. You chose to believe that the line in ESB meant that Yoda was the one and only teacher that Obi-Wan ever had. Even if it means that Yoda was his primary teacher, it still fits under these circumstances I've mentioned. Someone watching the saga for the first time in order from 1 through 6 is not going to think that the whole integrity of the continuity has fallen apart when they hear Obi-Wan's ESB line to Luke.

That's the kind of "spin" worthy of the O'Reilly Factor. :) Like statistics, any amount of rationalization can be employed to make something seem "correct." That's what it takes to shoehorn the reimagining of continuity in the Prequels to "fit" the OT storyline. If it takes that much explanation (above) to have this particular element of the story make sense, then there is something inherently flawed there. And if this was the only instance of flawed continuity, then no, maybe it might not be that big of a deal, but it is just one of many which exists within other flaws of the Prequels (like really bad dialogue and plot holes the size of Kansas).

Not to delve that deeply into this specific instance of continuity error, but in the OT, Old Ben states specifically that Yoda was the Jedi Master who taught him with absolutely NO mention of anyone else (Qui Gon). According the the Prequels, Qui Gon was the Jedi Master who instructed Obi Wan and we NEVER see Yoda teaching Obi Wan. You are only guessing that Obi Wan was in Yoda's kindergarten class at a younger age and the end of ROTS "lesson" about vanishing hardly counts toward Yoda being "the Jedi Master who instructed me." It's a cut and dried case of continuity error on the part of the Prequels, not a case of interpreting what Spirit Ben said in ESB.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 12:41 AM
They never called them Clonetroopers in the movies, just as they never called anybody Sandtroopers or Snowtroopers.


True, but the official script does use the term "Clone trooper." Below are just a few examples.


41 INT. BATTLESTATIONS-REPUBLIC CRUISER

Clone gunners fire on the Trade Federation cruiser and take fire in return. Gun emplacements are destroyed. Clone troopers go flying.


92 EXT. KASHYYYK-BEACH HEAD-DAY

A WOOKIEE CHIEFTAIN lets out a roar as the Wookiee army rushes to face the DROID ARMY. CORPORATE ALLIANCE TANK DROIDS race across the water against the WOOKIEES and CLONE TROOPERS on the beach. DROID GUNSHIPS provide air support, while a SPIDER DROID emerges from the watery depths. A brave WOOKIEE places an explosive on a SEPARATIST TANK and jumps off just before the TANK EXPLODES. From the Hologram Area, Yoda observes the ongoing battle.

152 EXT. KASHYYYK-LAKE ON VILLAGE EDGE-DUSK

CLONES in modified one-man AT-ST's and Swamp Speeders flash their searchlights across the gloomy lake. The light of one of the AT-ST's spots something floating in the water. It is what's left of a Wookiee catamaran. The body of a dead Wookiee (TARFFUL) is lying across the stern of the wreckage of the flying boat. There is some movement on the boat. The CLONE SERGEANT on the AT-ST fires a warning shot past the boat.

AT-ST CLONE SERGEANT: Everyone out of there!

A CRAZY LITTLE CREATURE about two feet high pops its head over the rail. The creature is covered with mud. His long hair is frizzed out in all directions.

CREATURE: Wookiee good . . . eat Wookiee. (crazy little laugh)

CLONE SERGEANT: Did you find something?

CREATURE: It's nothing, nothing. (laughs)

CLONE SERGEANT: It's nothing, nothing. All these Wookiees are dead. Move to the east.

CLONE TROOPER: Yes, sir.

Suddenly, CHEWBACCA climbs up behind the AT-ST CLONE, dripping wet, and throws the CLONE SERGEANT into the water. CHEWIE BARKS. So while they aren't necessarily named onscreen, G. Lucas did actually dub them "Clonetroopers" himself. So somewhere along the linear storyline in the Star Wars universe, the Empire switched from the term "Clonetrooper" to "Stormtrooper" which indicates a change in exactly who was wearing that armor.

And as we see

A) variances in height in OT Stormtroopers
B) and we hear variances in voice in OT Stormtroopers
C) and we see at least one out-of-armor Stormtrooper in ANH...


INTERIOR: REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER -- HALLWAY

SECOND OFFICER: Lord Vader, the battle station plans are not aboard this ship! And no transmissions were made. An escape pod was jettisoned during the fighting, but no life forms were aboard.

Vader turns to the Commander.

VADER: She must have hidden the plans in the escape pod. Send a detachment down to retrieve them. See to it personally, Commander. There'll be no one to stop us this time.

COMMANDER: Yes, sir.

we can conclude that OT Stormtroopers are NOT Clonetroopers when we combine that information with the script designations from the Flanneled-One himself. And since Prequel lovers have said that Lucas is the source of information, it is clear that OT Stormtroopers of all kinds are, in fact, not Jango clones, therefore the Snowtrooper with Jango face is not accurate.

:)

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 01:05 AM
Han Solo's Grandfather was Denn Solo.

He married and had twins: a son and daughter.

There was a blood feud within the family. There was a pirate called Solo The Black.

Denn and his wife fled. They had to split up.

The wife took the daughter, Tion Solo, who married a Sal. Thracken Sal-Solo is their son (one of Denn's grandsons, Han is the other).

Denn's son also ran. I don't knw what happened to Denn Solo.

The son, as of yet never named, could have become a mercenary and volunteered for cloning, to augment or replace Jango's clones.

Denn's son's clones could have included one that got lost.

That'd make Han still Corellian and related to the Solo family. His history with Garris Shrike finding him, his friendship with Dewlanna the Wookiee that saved him, and all his history in The Paradise Snare, Hutt Gambit, and Rebel Dawn would follow succinctly just fine.

It would work if they wanted to tell the tale this way.

Lando has less established continuity, but he could also be from a clone source or military training. However, he does remember his mother somehow. Whether that woman was really his mother is open to speculation however.

Man, that is one of the lamest backstory explanations I have ever heard. Sounds like the Beverly Hillbillies version of Star Wars.




That said, these are apples and oranges. As far as I know, the new BC is not a prequel or sequel of the original series. The way I understand it is that it is a reimagining of the concept. Given that, they have leeway to do anything they want to with the story, characters, situations, etc. with little to no thought toward continuity of the original version of the concept back in the late Seventies. I too was a fan of the original and may have made time to watch the new series if they had the cool Cylon robots that I liked then... but my "bias" toward the old version has nothing to do with whether or not the new version is any good or not. The new version is a reimagining therefore they have license to do whatever they want.

Arthur C. Clarke did a reimagining of continuity and established elements when he wrote the third book of the 20++ series. 2001 established a continuity which 2010 followed. However when Clarke wrote 2061 and wanted to change the established continuity that the previous two books established, he specifically wrote an introduction to the book which explained that A) he was doing that and B) he knew it and didn't care because he wanted this new story to be told in this new way.

Star Wars, on the other hand, altered the OT continuity without any such disclaimer attached.


Lucas did say on E.T. when he announced the Prequels back in 1992 (and I still have this on recorded on VHS) that the Prequels would be very different from the original trilogy and that when the story was completed it would make us look at the original films in a completely different way. He implied very strongly that our points of view would be altered by the continuity of the narrative. Since we only had episodes 4-6 as our only points of reference growing up we made certain suppositions that nothing could be altered to the narrative structure i.e. Stormtroopers being Clones or Boba Fett having Jango's voice, or Hayden replacing Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ. Lucas saw the narrative as being malleable and could be altered to conform to a continuum to support the Prequels that would become the established narrative structure of continuity whether we, the fans, agreed with it or not. Certain changes were superfluous and unnecessary like Greedo shooting first, others became necessary to support the narrative arc of episodes 1-3 when assembled in chronological order. Those like ourselves with "OT Bias" have a unique vantage point of knowing what those narrative differences are having grown up with the OT first which is why fans are screaming for Lucas to preserve the original theatrical versions because they are partial to what they remember. For generations that follow, they will see it from the perspective of following the narrative established by the PT the way Lucas now intends. Whether you choose to accept those changes to narrative flow, again, is a matter of personal preference. I don't agree with a lot of the alterations Lucas made to the OT in support of the Prequel narrative but then again there's not much I can really do about it accept whine and moan like the rest of the OT biased fanboys and get over it.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 01:21 AM
A) variances in height in OT Stormtroopers
B) and we hear variances in voice in OT Stormtroopers
C) and we see at least one out-of-armor Stormtrooper in ANH...



INTERIOR: REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER -- HALLWAY

SECOND OFFICER: Lord Vader, the battle station plans are not aboard this ship! And no transmissions were made. An escape pod was jettisoned during the fighting, but no life forms were aboard.

Vader turns to the Commander.

VADER: She must have hidden the plans in the escape pod. Send a detachment down to retrieve them. See to it personally, Commander. There'll be no one to stop us this time.

COMMANDER: Yes, sir.

we can conclude that OT Stormtroopers are NOT Clonetroopers when we combine that information with the script designations from the Flanneled-One himself. And since Prequel lovers have said that Lucas is the source of information, it is clear that OT Stormtroopers of all kinds are, in fact, not Jango clones, therefore the Snowtrooper with Jango face is not accurate.

:)I don't understand what that passage illustrates. Where is the unmasked stormtrooper? I agree with you that OT Stormtroopers are of all kinds, but that can include Jango clones. Thus, there is no proof that there are no Jango Snowtroopers.

I have a math background. That included learning about logic. In my 10th grade geometry class, there was a logic exercise in the beginning of the book. They had some passages from some literature. One was an excerpt from The Hobbit. This was followed by a series of statements which you were to respond, "True", "False", or "Not Certain." One such statement was "Gandalf was a wizard." Reading the passage, it seemed obvious that this was true. It would have been easier to answer "True" if you had read The Hobbit before. However, the correct response was "Not Certain." Nowhere in the passage did it explicitly say that Gandalf was a wizard. Likewise, there is nothing in the OT that says no Stormtrooper or Snowtrooper looked like Jango.

Taking this and applying it to the Yoda/Obi-Wan thing, there is nothing in the OT that says Qui-Gon didn't exist. The only thing to suggest that he didn't train Obi-Wan was that statement in ESB. However, I don't believe that you can necessarily infer from that statement that Yoda was the one and only trainer of Obi-Wan. I just watched the scene, and there is the slightest of pauses between "master" and "who" to suggest that maybe it could be read this way: "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master, who instructed me." Even without the pause, I still think it can be interpreted that way. Given the situation, that was about the only thing that Obi-Wan could say that briefly, because saying, "Yoda, a Jedi Master who instructed me" doesn't quite carry the same weight. He didn't have time to elaborate about Qui-Gon, younglings, padawans, and how Yoda had instructed him when they had to go into exile.

So, I don't think it is a continuity error when we have evidence in the PT of Yoda instructing Obi-Wan. We didn't even have to wait for the youngling scene of AOTC or the talking to Qui-Gon reference at the end of ROTS. It's right there in the beginning of TPM. "But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." That sounds like an instruction.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 01:27 AM
Quote:
INTERIOR: REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER -- HALLWAY

SECOND OFFICER: Lord Vader, the battle station plans are not aboard this ship! And no transmissions were made. An escape pod was jettisoned during the fighting, but no life forms were aboard.

Vader turns to the Commander.

VADER: She must have hidden the plans in the escape pod. Send a detachment down to retrieve them. See to it personally, Commander. There'll be no one to stop us this time.

COMMANDER: Yes, sir.

Isn't SECOND OFFICER supposed to be Commander Praji? They never mention that dude's name anywhere and yet Sideshow just made a figure of this guy. What happened to FIRST OFFICER, the one who says "Holding her is dangerous...?" Who the hell is that guy?!?!?

Devo
12-02-2007, 01:36 AM
Lucas did say on E.T. when he announced the Prequels back in 1992 (and I still have this on recorded on VHS) that the Prequels would be very different from the original trilogy and that when the story was completed it would make us look at the original films in a completely different way.

Yes, with our new prequel-inspired outlook we can say that the great and iconic villain Darth Vader was a completely unlikeable w*nker during his youth the likes of whom it was a wonder Obi-wan didn't kill out of sheer irritation before he even 'turned' to the darkside. We learnt that Obi-wan of the OT was even more disingenuous (sp?) than we had thought - he wasn't particularly 'amazed' at how strongly the force was with Anakin which led him to 'take it upon himself' to train him as a jedi. He was forced into doing so out of a sense of obligation to a guy the OT never saw fit to mention. Obi-wan and anakin exchange about 3 words in episode I, Episode II evidence suggests Anakin just pi&&ed him off all the time and Episode III made them enemies....so having a scan of that yields no indication Ben of ANH was telling any sort of truth about Anakin being 'a good friend'. We also learnt that when Leia talked about 'images and feelings', 'very beautiful, kind but sad' in referance to her late mother she was in fact recalling a time period of about 5 minutes - during which Leia may not have even opened her eyes. Fair play to her.

New outlook indeed. I'm sure I'm missing other stuff too, what about the realisation the prequels helped us derive about how the jedi are a bunch of slow, stating-the-obvious-after-the-fact-idiots (see ROTS Mace Windu line: I sense a plot to destroy the jedi). Now when I watch the OT I don't feel any regret at all that they were all killed! Phew! I needed that off my conscience.

Although on the issue of the toys I don't mind about jango heads underneath helmets where they can be hidden. If they start putting out every generic imperial officer or DS trooper as a clone I'd have words.

AmanaMatt
12-02-2007, 01:38 AM
All I know is that the 'Vintage' Snowtrooper is a fantastic figure with a helmet that can be removed but never is in my collection.

Who care's what head is under there if you never take it off?

I appreciate that a clone head on a Stormtrooper freaks people out, but this topic is old, dried and dead!

stillakid
12-02-2007, 02:08 AM
Man, that is one of the lamest backstory explanations I have ever heard. Sounds like the Beverly Hillbillies version of Star Wars.
I was thinking that it was worthy of Jerry Springer. :thumbsup:




Lucas did say on E.T. when he announced the Prequels back in 1992 (and I still have this on recorded on VHS)
Please digitize this and make it available for download or on YouTube.





that the Prequels would be very different from the original trilogy and that when the story was completed it would make us look at the original films in a completely different way. He implied very strongly that our points of view would be altered by the continuity of the narrative. Since we only had episodes 4-6 as our only points of reference growing up we made certain suppositions that nothing could be altered to the narrative structure i.e. Stormtroopers being Clones or Boba Fett having Jango's voice, or Hayden replacing Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ. Lucas saw the narrative as being malleable and could be altered to conform to a continuum to support the Prequels that would become the established narrative structure of continuity whether we, the fans, agreed with it or not. Certain changes were superfluous and unnecessary like Greedo shooting first, others became necessary to support the narrative arc of episodes 1-3 when assembled in chronological order. Those like ourselves with "OT Bias" have a unique vantage point of knowing what those narrative differences are having grown up with the OT first which is why fans are screaming for Lucas to preserve the original theatrical versions because they are partial to what they remember. For generations that follow, they will see it from the perspective of following the narrative established by the PT the way Lucas now intends. Whether you choose to accept those changes to narrative flow, again, is a matter of personal preference. I don't agree with a lot of the alterations Lucas made to the OT in support of the Prequel narrative but then again there's not much I can really do about it accept whine and moan like the rest of the OT biased fanboys and get over it.

Ok, well, even earlier than this ET interview was an magazine interview (Playboy, I believe) in which Lucas states that the Prequels would be less exciting than the current films and more "Machevellian" in nature. He explained that the politics of the time that lead to the downfall of a great Republic would be the focus more than space battles and action.

Well, twenty-odd years certainly change attitudes. While there was a scant bit of "political" intrigue (unclear at best), the Prequels clearly only skimmed the surface of the political failings that contribute to the downfall of a government. Remember, Lucas was heavily influenced by the political environment in the Sixties with Vietnam and Nixon and I'm sure that Kennedy had some impact as well.

Even so, most of your above paragraph assumes that the story is led by the PREQUEL elements. But the OT establishes the continuity, not the other way around, so it isn't correct to support Prequel alterations because of Prequel events at the expense of OT continuity. You use the phrase "narrative structure" as if it was impossible to create a backstory to the OT while preserving the established continuity of the OT. That's just not the case.

The FACT is that Lucas wanted Frank Darabont to write Episode I, but due to a contract dispute and Lucas' famous hatred of anything Hollywood or union (WGA, IATSE), Lucas decided to write the prequels himself instead of employing a qualified screenwriter. Lucas hadn't written a film himself since THX1138, his first feature after college. After that, he had others finish or write everything that had his name attached... until The Phantom Menace. And he hadn't directed anything since A New Hope in 1977. Point being, Lucas isn't a writer and he admittedly doesn't enjoy directing. So a quality prequel story for Star Wars could have been written based on the established OT continuity, but it wasn't due to Lucas' own ego and hubris. It was his responsibility to remain true to what HE and others established in 1977, 1980, and 1983 yet he chose not to. Why? Well, only he can answer that.

In the meantime, we're left having to deal with aftermarket rationalizations to explain how the Prequel story could possibly lead into the Original Trilogy.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 02:09 AM
We learnt that Obi-wan of the OT was even more disingenuous (sp?) than we had thought - he wasn't particularly 'amazed' at how strongly the force was with Anakin which led him to 'take it upon himself' to train him as a jedi. He was forced into doing so out of a sense of obligation to a guy the OT never saw fit to mention.He seemed pretty amazed at that midichlorian count in Episode I. He also told Qui-Gon that he felt the boy was dangerous. Why would someone without any amazing Force ability be considered dangerous by the Jedi Council? However, he changed his attitude when he apologized to Qui-Gon. Otherwise, why would he feel obligated to train him after Qui-Gon's death when he disagreed with it before his death? Yes, there was some sense of obligation. However, considering his limited interaction with Anakin and the feelings about him that he had expressed to Qui-Gon, it would have been easy to go along with Yoda's assessment.
Episode II evidence suggests Anakin just pi&&ed him off all the time and Episode III made them enemies....so having a scan of that yields no indication Ben of ANH was telling any sort of truth about Anakin being 'a good friend'. Anakin speaks highly of Obi-Wan despite his frustrations in AOTC. In the beginning of ROTS, the relationship seems to have evolved from a father-son relationship to more of a Batman & Robin relationship. In the end, Obi-Wan is as heartbroken as Padmé, as he feels he has lost a "brother."

stillakid
12-02-2007, 02:16 AM
I don't understand what that passage illustrates. Where is the unmasked stormtrooper?

Didn't you see A New Hope? The unmasked Stormtrooper is the Imperial officer in black who Vader tells to go "see to it personally, Commander."

So after the scene cuts, that Commander goes to his locker, puts on his dress white Sandtrooper armor and goes to Tatooine to find the droids.

Isn't that obvious?


So that guy DEFINITELY doesn't look like Jango Fett. Not even a little bit. And it's probably fair to guess that the black uniform with little hat is something that non-armored Stormtroopers wear, probably. I can't say that for sure, but it makes sense. So we see clearly that for a variety of reasons with evidence in the OT itself, Stormtroopers are NOT clones of Jango. The only Special Edition change that shows that ANYONE in the OT is a clone is Boba Fett's voice in ESB. But NO Stormtrooper voices in the OT were changed to sound like Jango. Therefore... no clones in the OT. None.

elvandrik
12-02-2007, 02:24 AM
you guys must really be bored.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 02:29 AM
He seemed pretty amazed at that midichlorian count in Episode I.
That's a far cry from being "amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." That's a HUGE stretch to connect your above quote to Old Ben's original statement in ROTJ. Like I said, it takes significant "spin" to shoehorn Prequel events into OT established continuity.



He also told Qui-Gon that he felt the boy was dangerous. Why would someone without any amazing Force ability be considered dangerous by the Jedi Council? However, he changed his attitude when he apologized to Qui-Gon. Otherwise, why would he feel obligated to train him after Qui-Gon's death when he disagreed with it before his death? Yes, there was some sense of obligation.
Obi Wan's sense of obligation to his promise to Qui Gon was his ONLY reason for training Anakin. It had NOTHING to do with how he felt about Anakin's abilities, as OLD BEN in ROTJ states.

Let's look at the linear continuity of what Old Ben says for a second. Spirit Ben says FIRST that... "he was already a great pilot"

Then follows immediately with ... "but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him."

Then, ... "I decided to train him myself."

So, Ben apparently witnesses Anakin's superior flying skills before deciding to train him as a Jedi as a result of Obi's witnessing of these flying skills which evidently prove Anakin's potential as a Jedi. Did you follow that?

What did the Prequels show instead? It shows Obi Wan sitting miles away on a broken spaceship as somebody else (Qui Gon) witnesses Anakin pilot a podracer (is this REALLY an example of being a "great pilot"?).... then the Prequels show QUI GON assuming that Anakin has great Force potential and deciding to train him.... then the Prequels show Qui Gon making Obi Wan promise to train the boy no matter what .... then two episodes later, Obi Wan finally witnesses Anakin be a "great pilot" during the opening battle in ROTS a full 10 or so years AFTER the decision to train Anakin was made.

So in absolutely NO WAY did the Prequels follow any sense of the established OT continuity and implication of what the Prequels were supposed to actually show the audience.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 02:31 AM
you guys must really be bored.


I've got some serious sh** on my mind that I'm trying to distract myself from. :) So yeah, you called it. Isn't that what hobbies are for?

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 03:00 AM
Didn't you see A New Hope? The unmasked Stormtrooper is the Imperial officer in black who Vader tells to go "see to it personally, Commander."

So after the scene cuts, that Commander goes to his locker, puts on his dress white Sandtrooper armor and goes to Tatooine to find the droids.

Isn't that obvious? No, it isn't obvious. He is dressed similarly to the other Imperial officer in that scene, and to the Imperial officer's on the Death Star. There are plenty of stormtroopers on board walking around. Why isn't he already in armor? And even if does occasionally don the white armor, that doesn't mean that NO stormtroopers look like Jango. A ≠ B does not imply C ≠ B unless we know that A = C. This is simple logic.


That's a far cry from being "amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." That's a HUGE stretch to connect your above quote to Old Ben's original statement in ROTJ. Like I said, it takes significant "spin" to shoehorn Prequel events into OT established continuity.That's not a HUGE stretch. True, there is a difference between seeing a number on the screen and actually seeing him demonstrate his Force ability, but just because he wasn't actually observing all of Anakin's TPM exploits doesn't mean he didn't hear about them and be marveled by what he could do.


Let's look at the linear continuity of what Old Ben says for a second. Spirit Ben says FIRST that... "he was already a great pilot"

Then follows immediately with ... "but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him."

Then, ... "I decided to train him myself."

So, Ben apparently witnesses Anakin's superior flying skills before deciding to train him as a Jedi as a result of Obi's witnessing of these flying skills which evidently prove Anakin's potential as a Jedi. Did you follow that?You're making logical leaps based on something that isn't actually there. Refer to my "Gandalf was a wizard" example. Where does it say that Obi-Wan observed Anakin's piloting skills, or that such observations were what made him want to train him. The statement Obi-Wan makes even makes a distinction. "He was already a great pilot, BUT I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." That sounds more like the Force and not the piloting is what impressed him. With Jedi, one does not need to observe a physical feat to tell if someone is strong with the Force. Even Qui-Gon didn't really see anything until the pod race, but by then he had already known that there was something special. Obi-Wan probably sensed something too, which would explain why he initially agreed with the Council's assessment that he was dangerous. Maybe most of his desire to train was an obligation to Qui-Gon, but he put that burden upon himself. With Yoda and the other Jedi seemingly on his side earlier in the movie, he could easily have stuck to his initial feelings and bowed to the wisdom of the Council. That way he could shift some of the guilt he might feel about not honoring Qui-Gon. Sort of a "not my fault" for the prequels.


then two episodes later, Obi Wan finally witnesses Anakin be a "great pilot" during the opening battle in ROTS a full 10 or so years AFTER the decision to train Anakin was made.I'd say he witnessed Anakin's piloting ability in the Coruscant chase in AOTC, and from what he says to Anakin, it sounds like it wasn't the first time. Besides, Obi-Wan's ANH line never said when or if he observed Anakin's piloting ability, just that he was a good pilot when he first knew him.


you guys must really be bored.No, just not much else going on today.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 03:32 AM
Well, twenty-odd years certainly change attitudes. While there was a scant bit of "political" intrigue (unclear at best), the Prequels clearly only skimmed the surface of the political failings that contribute to the downfall of a government. Remember, Lucas was heavily influenced by the political environment in the Sixties with Vietnam and Nixon and I'm sure that Kennedy had some impact as well.

Seems to me that the Prequels actually suffer more from being bogged down by politics more so than the OT. Look at the opening of Episode I, a convoluted scroll about some blockade of the Trade Federation left most audiences and OT fans scratching their heads wondering what all of the political exposition actually meant. The "Machiavellian" intrigue came about in Episode III where the politics of the entire Saga really cultivate and lay the foundation for the OT with parallels in contemporary politics to the Bush administration and using Executive Powers to suspend the constitution and the powers of the Republic. If you ask me, George Bush is dangerously close to declaring himself Emperor of the Republic of the Unites States. He could use the crises in the mid-east to suspend the elections and keep himself in power indefinitely like that Musharaf guy did in Pakistan recently during the military coup.



Even so, most of your above paragraph assumes that the story is led by the PREQUEL elements. But the OT establishes the continuity, not the other way around, so it isn't correct to support Prequel alterations because of Prequel events at the expense of OT continuity. You use the phrase "narrative structure" as if it was impossible to create a backstory to the OT while preserving the established continuity of the OT. That's just not the case. I'm sure that George would argue that you have it completely turned around. As far as he is concerned, the narrative begins with Episode I. Again, you are confusing the establishment of the narrative beginning with ANH because that was the first film that was actually made and established expectations that the rest of the films in the Saga would be judged against which is completely biased. That's like reading a novel beginning at chapter 4 and then going back and reading the first 3 chapters after finishing the book only to be disappointed because they weren't as exciting as reading the latter half of the book and were anti-climatic in relation to your expectations based on the events established in the latter half of the novel. A story has to have a starting point which builds towards a climax. Granted, I would have preferred George would have started with the Clone Wars and omitted all of the boring exposition about Anakin's youth as a spoiled slave.



The FACT is that Lucas wanted Frank Darabont to write Episode I, but due to a contract dispute and Lucas' famous hatred of anything Hollywood or union (WGA, IATSE), Lucas decided to write the prequels himself instead of employing a qualified screenwriter. Lucas hadn't written a film himself since THX1138, his first feature after college. After that, he had others finish or write everything that had his name attached... until The Phantom Menace. And he hadn't directed anything since A New Hope in 1977. Point being, Lucas isn't a writer and he admittedly doesn't enjoy directing. So a quality prequel story for Star Wars could have been written based on the established OT continuity, but it wasn't due to Lucas' own ego and hubris. It was his responsibility to remain true to what HE and others established in 1977, 1980, and 1983 yet he chose not to. Why? Well, only he can answer that. Lucas even says on the DVD commentaries that he is very happy with the Prequels and he made them the way HE wanted to make them. He even snubbed Darabont out of his script for Indy IV but still used elements from his script when it was re-written by David Koepp.



In the meantime, we're left having to deal with aftermarket rationalizations to explain how the Prequel story could possibly lead into the Original Trilogy.That's how we have to rationalize it but it will be interesting to see how younger generations interpret all of this having seen them in their linear narrative as Lucas intends for them to be viewed. They might see things from a different perspective that those of us who are OT biased could not even see or realize.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 03:51 AM
No, it isn't obvious. He is dressed similarly to the other Imperial officer in that scene, and to the Imperial officer's on the Death Star. There are plenty of stormtroopers on board walking around. Why isn't he already in armor?
What?! Of course it's obvious. Vader tells that specific guy in black to go see to it personally. The next thing we see are a bunch of armored Stormtroopers marauding around Tatooine looking for the droids. He was told to go "personally" and we can safely assume that he is one of those STORMtroopers in armor.

Why isn't he already in armor? Fu** if I know. Ask Lucas. But if I was forced to make something up to try to explain it, I'd guess that since he was a Commander, he was sent in after the infantry guys to oversee the mop up. Something like that. He wasn't in armor on the Tantive because he didn't go in for the initial battle. Total guess, but semi-educated I guess. It's the kind of stuff people make up to fill in gaps and try to explain stuff that isn't rammed down the audience's throats, only my guess is based in rational thought and not in my personal bias's or desires for what I want the movies to be. :)



And even if does occasionally don the white armor, that doesn't mean that NO stormtroopers look like Jango. A ≠ B does not imply C ≠ B unless we know that A = C. This is simple logic.
Simple logic says that ALL of the evidence suggests that there are no clones in the OT. Picking one instance out doesn't make the case. ALL of the things I mentioned before lead to the logical conclusion that there are no clones in the OT.


That's not a HUGE stretch. True, there is a difference between seeing a number on the screen and actually seeing him demonstrate his Force ability, but just because he wasn't actually observing all of Anakin's TPM exploits doesn't mean he didn't hear about them and be marveled by what he could do.
Stretch. A movie SHOWS the audience important elements and doesn't necessitate that the audience make huge leaps to try to string disparate things together. We never see or hear that anyone told Obi Wan about how great a pilot is in the podrace before the decision to train the boy is made. You are assuming everything in order to justify the continuity errors.



You're making logical leaps based on something that isn't actually there. Refer to my "Gandalf was a wizard" example. Where does it say that Obi-Wan observed Anakin's piloting skills, or that such observations were what made him want to train him. The statement Obi-Wan makes even makes a distinction. "He was already a great pilot, BUT I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." That sounds more like the Force and not the piloting is what impressed him.

Maybe, but it sounds more like he was first impressed with Anakin's piloting skills, which Obi Wan doesn't actually see until ROTS unless you count surface craft which he first sees in AOTC. Then he is impressed with some kind of feeling or demonstration of Anakin's Force potential, AFTER witnessing Anakin's piloting.

Let's look at the original script:



BEN
When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot.
But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him.
I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi.
I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda.
I was wrong.
My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy.

Six statement there with the last one being cut from the film.

First: WHEN I FIRST KNEW HIM. Not ten years later after he was older during exciting offscreen pre AOTC campaigns. FIRST KNEW HIM meaning when Anakin was Jake Lloyd in TPM. Obi Wan NEVER saw Anakin fly nor was told onscreen about it.

Second line: He was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. This Midichlorian count is not an indication of whether the Force is with someone or not. In ANH, Leia is not "detected" by Vader even though we learn in ROTJ that she also has Force potential. And if we are to believe the Prequels, Leia must be chock full o' Midichlorians. You're making the argument that the mere presence of Midi's alerts Obi Wan that Anakin was Force strong. But if that was enough then Vader would've picked up on Leia's Force sense the minute he was alone in the room with her. He doesn't... ever.

The "But." The But refers to Obi Wan's acknowledgment that the piloting skills aren't necessarily the proof of Anakin's Force ability. That's the movie explanation. If I was a betting person though, I'd take the risk to suggest that the addition of "but" in the script is a result of the way most people improperly speak and I blame lax screenwriting for it. A lot of the time when people join two thoughts like that together they really mean to say AND, but for some reason, in our culture, most people use the word "BUT." A simple slip which most people do.

But hating to presume a screenwriting error, I'll hold to the movie explanation that Obi Wan simply wasn't tying the piloting skills to Anakin's Force potential.

Third line: "I took it upon myself..." Boy this clearly tells us that Obi Wan made that choice himself based purely on his own observations and conclusions about Anakin. This third line tells us that nobody else guilted him into training Anakin. He made the decision himself for some unstated reason (until the final cut line above) to train Anakin... not as a favor or because he was guilted into it. Obi Wan decided to train Anakin because he saw Force potential in someone who had illustrated great piloting ability when THEY FIRST MET.

Fourth line: I though I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. That suggests that Yoda is a great teacher and that Obi Wan felt he was good enough to do it. It also suggests that Anakin was older since, according to Prequel enthusiasts, Obi Wan would have only taken on Anakin's training after Yoda's kindergarten teaching was done. But since Yoda only teaches younglings in the film, we have no reason to expect that Yoda also taught older people. Obi Wan wants to believe that he can teach a teenager just as well as Yoda teaches pre-school class? Where's the logic in that?

Fifth line: I was wrong. Clearly he failed at some stage of Anakin's training, which we presume, led to him joining Palpatine.

The sixth line (cut from the movie but conceived by Lucas anyway) tells us that Obi chose to train Anakin out of pride, not because of any obligation to an unmentioned other Master. The last line is "My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy..tells us that Obi Wan thought himself "proud" and "capable" and it came back to burn everybody.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 04:10 AM
I'm sure that George would argue that you have it completely turned around. As far as he is concerned, the narrative begins with Episode I. Again, you are confusing the establishment of the narrative beginning with ANH because that was the first film that was actually made and established expectations that the rest of the films in the Saga would be judged against which is completely biased. That's like reading a novel beginning at chapter 4 and then going back and reading the first 3 chapters after finishing the book only to be disappointed because they weren't as exciting as reading the latter half of the book and were anti-climatic in relation to your expectations based on the events established in the latter half of the novel. A story has to have a starting point which builds towards a climax. Granted, I would have preferred George would have started with the Clone Wars and omitted all of the boring exposition about Anakin's youth as a spoiled slave..

Whoa whoa whoa, have you got it all wrong. I don't give a hoot what the Episode numbers say, the films were made in the order they were made. That was Lucas' decision. Continuity begins the moment something is committed to paper or film. So Episode IV established the continuity for everything to follow regardless of whether a movie story episode came before or after. You can't say that the OT films are flawed because they don't have the same story continuity established by Episodes I, II, or III which were written, filmed, and edited after after Episodes IV, V, and VI. That's ridiculous. What you're suggesting is that Lucas must now go back and completely rewrite and refilm IV, V, and VI in order to "fix" their errors in light of the new continuity of the Prequels. That's insane.

Lucas' biography tells us that he began in the middle of the nine-part series because that was the most exciting part in order to attract an audience. It worked beyond his dreams. He did the middle three episodes then waited twenty some years to go back to write and film the first three episodes. And somewhere in there, episodes VII, VIII, and IX mysteriously vanished from his wishlist. So he established the Star Wars universe and all continuity in ANH then built on it in ESB then again in ROTJ. Then he discarded a lot of that when he sat to write TPM, AOTC, and ROTS. His perojative as creator of it all? Sure, but that doesn't make his decisions correct.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 04:26 AM
First: WHEN I FIRST KNEW HIM. Not ten years later after he was older during exciting offscreen pre AOTC campaigns. FIRST KNEW HIM meaning when Anakin was Jake Lloyd in TPM. Obi Wan NEVER saw Anakin fly nor was told onscreen about it.

That statements makes no claims that Obi-Wan is saying that he actually SAW Anakin as a Great Pilot. That was how he was probably introduced by Qui-Gon. He could have told him about their exploits on Tatooine and how he observed Anakin's piloting skills in the Pod Race and how he was impressed by his skills with the Force which Obi-Wan would no doubt come to observe on his own. Doesn't necessarily mean this conversation HAD to take place onsceen.



Second line: He was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. This Midichlorian count is not an indication of whether the Force is with someone or not. In ANH, Leia is not "detected" by Vader even though we learn in ROTJ that she also has Force potential. And if we are to believe the Prequels, Leia must be chock full o' Midichlorians. You're making the argument that the mere presence of Midi's alerts Obi Wan that Anakin was Force strong. But if that was enough then Vader would've picked up on Leia's Force sense the minute he was alone in the room with her. He doesn't... ever.Qui-Gon makes the observation of Annie's Midiclorian count when he reports his findings via comlink to Obi-Wan. Midiclorian count is not indicative of sensing someone's Force ability or presence. The fact that Vader doesn't sense Leia's attenuation to the Force is not applicable because he is not familiar with her. The fact is there could be numerous beings throughout the galaxy that have latent Force abilities and have a high concentration of Midiclorians, doesn't mean that it's going to get his Spider-senses tingling like it does when he senses Obi-Wan's presence on the Death Star. Obi-Wan was a familiar and his vendetta against him left familiar trace patterns for him to detect with the Force. As far as Vader is concerned, Leia is just another strong-willed Rebel who may have some Force potential but hardly sees this as a threat to the power of the Dark Side.



Third line: "I took it upon myself..." Boy this clearly tells us that Obi Wan made that choice himself based purely on his own observations and conclusions about Anakin. This third line tells us that nobody else guilted him into training Anakin. He made the decision himself for some unstated reason (until the final cut line above) to train Anakin... not as a favor or because he was guilted into it. Obi Wan decided to train Anakin because he saw Force potential in someone who had illustrated great piloting ability when THEY FIRST MET. Qui-Gon took the responsibility to train him after the Council denied it. Obi-Wan took over at the behest of Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon is never mentioned anywhere in the OT. Did Obi-Wan really need to go into a long-winded explanation to give to Luke? He abbreviated the events and condensed it to make it sound as though he took full responsibility for training Vader himself and failing instead of laying the blame solely at the feet of his Master. If you ask me, that was more admirable of Kenobi and honors Qui-Gon by not tarnishing his memory with the failings of his former pupil.



Fourth line: I though I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. That suggests that Yoda is a great teacher and that Obi Wan felt he was good enough to do it. It also suggests that Anakin was older since, according to Prequel enthusiasts, Obi Wan would have only taken on Anakin's training after Yoda's kindergarten teaching was done. But since Yoda only teaches younglings in the film, we have no reason to expect that Yoda also taught older people. Obi Wan wants to believe that he can teach a teenager just as well as Yoda teaches pre-school class? Where's the logic in that?I think you are misinterpreting the meaning of "teacher." The Younglings have nothing to do with it. Yoda has trained Jedi for 800 years. Thinking that he could train a Jedi of any age as well as Yoda would be brash and arrogant and no doubt facilitated Anakin's turning toward the Dark Side because he couldn't anticipate Anakin's selfish motives would turn him the way it did. He was constantly correcting him without understanding the reasons behind Anakin's ambitions that could have prevented his turning like Master Yoda could foresee.


Fifth line: I was wrong. Clearly he failed at some stage of Anakin's training, which we presume, led to him joining Palpatine.
Correct.


The sixth line (cut from the movie but conceived by Lucas anyway) tells us that Obi chose to train Anakin out of pride, not because of any obligation to an unmentioned other Master. The last line is "My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy..tells us that Obi Wan thought himself "proud" and "capable" and it came back to burn everybody.I'm sure Obi-Wan had a lot of pride to fulfill his obligation to his Master Qui-Gon and also to prove to the council that he could train Anakin and gain his acceptance. Obi-Wan had a lot riding on his apprentice and every time Anakin strayed from the Jedi code it made him look bad in front of the council and it was his job to set him straight. The scene in ROTS when Anakin confesses his arrogance to Obi-Wan you can see the look of surprise and agreeableness in Kenobi's face and for a moment he thinks that there may be hope yet for his apprentice and demonstrates his pride.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 04:42 AM
Whoa whoa whoa, have you got it all wrong. I don't give a hoot what the Episode numbers say, the films were made in the order they were made. That was Lucas' decision. Continuity begins the moment something is committed to paper or film. So Episode IV established the continuity for everything to follow regardless of whether a movie story episode came before or after. You can't say that the OT films are flawed because they don't have the same story continuity established by Episodes I, II, or III which were written, filmed, and edited after after Episodes IV, V, and VI. That's ridiculous. What you're suggesting is that Lucas must now go back and completely rewrite and refilm IV, V, and VI in order to "fix" their errors in light of the new continuity of the Prequels. That's insane.


Have you ever written a story, or even a paper for school for that matter? Have you ever gone back and made changes to support other paragraphs or sentences or other parts of the story so they make more sense? Writing is fluid. Art is fluid. Just because a writer or artists unveils their work publicly doesn't mean that they can't go back and change something. If DaVinci wanted to go back and paint eyebrows on the Mona Lisa years later he could have. I think Lucas is a perfectionist in his own mind and will never be satisfied. He needs to learn that all art is subjective and interpretive and though not perfect you need to reach a point where you just leave it the way it is and walk away from it. I think Lucas will continue tweaking his art up until the day he dies and that's pretty sad. Christ, here I am defending Lucas for the most part when I have a reputation for being one of his biggest critics. It's a love/hate thing with George and that's probably directly related to his hangup with his own work and just can't leave well-enough alone. I will be happy the day George finally seperates himself from Star Wars and moves on to other things like he has promised time and again he would make artistic and experimental little films no one wants to see. The truth is he is STILL making Star Wars and is involved in the TV shows. He just can't move on because it makes him the most money and he already has more money than God himself. He is trapped in a paradox of his own making.

Bosskman
12-02-2007, 07:57 AM
Here are my two major beefs with the 'inconsistencies' in continuty between the prequels and the OT. First is absolutely nothing in the prequels that explicitly CONTRADICTS anything in the OT, however, a lot of things that are directly stated in the OT (like stillakid's Obi-Wan example) are ignored in the prequels and what is shown on screen is a huge stretch (but a stretch nonetheless). Here is what I mean:

When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot

He says when he first knew him, not when he first met him. Not contradicted by anything in TPM because it wasn't even shown in TPM. Obi wan didn't really "know"
anakin until after TPM was over

he did, however "know" he was a great pilot in TPM, which does show that, albeit not in the way that most of us (myself included) had envisioned.

But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him

some people take it that this refers to the midi comment of TPM, that is a HUGE stretch.

I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi.
I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda

Sorta shown at the end of TPM, not contradictory in the literal sense at all, however there is a strong implication in the way obi wan says it in ANH that he was doing something that was not approved by other Jedi which is wishy washied by the statement that the Jedi Council approves it but Yoda does not.

I was wrong.

Clearly evident in everything from the middle of ROTS on through the OT, however in AOTC all the jedi, even Yoda, accept Anakin as a Jedi. There is very little indication that Obi Wan training Anakin is something that he shoudn't be doing. Obi Wan in the prequels is continually presented as someone who is always right. His "I failed you" speech to Anakin, while perfectly consistent with the OT Obi-Wan's characted is severely out of character for the very unlikeable, stiff and un-human Obi-Wan of the prequels.

This is one tiny example in the huge mess that is the prequels. My point is that it is a huge stretch to bridge a gap that should have been seamless. Regular people who are not SW geeks like us don't have the desire to disect every line of dialogue to find continuity. It's like a spiderweb when it should have been the Brooklyn Bridge. Lucas had no "vision for the saga" he had "visions of piles of money that would have been a lot bigger if he let people who know what they're doing make the prequels not him" His interviews that I have seen cleary show that he has very little actual interest in the story of the OT or even the prequels (unlike, say Peter Jackson about LOTR, and that wasn't even his own invention). His backpeddling and dumbing down of JJB and the midis after fan dislike and his putting action and huge CG effects into movies he said would be more intrigue than anything else prove this to be true. I like the look of the prequels and the effects and the music, but you really have to dig to find anything that resembles a story and there are very few if any OT type moments when it comes to the characters. Palpatine/Sidious and R2 being the sole examples and the only consistent characters throughout. (3PO was way to over the top with the humor on Geonosis) The prequels could have been so much more but Lucas is a blubbering idiot. Oh well, that's life I guess... I'm not a prequel hater though.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 11:17 AM
Have you ever written a story, or even a paper for school for that matter? Have you ever gone back and made changes to support other paragraphs or sentences or other parts of the story so they make more sense? Writing is fluid. Art is fluid. Just because a writer or artists unveils their work publicly doesn't mean that they can't go back and change something.

So that's the excuse? Lucas' original OT stories are "flawed" therefore the Prequel reimaginings of the continuity is now the correct way to see the story?

Going back and replacing a less than perfect Visual Effects shot is one thing. Going into a film to alter the established story is another. As the owner of a work of art, of course one has the right to do anything you wish. Da Vinci could have added eyebrows, painted over the whole thing, made Mona Lisa mad, or burnt the whole canvas into a little pile of ash. But the question is, once he has declared it "finished" and released it into the world, is that version the end of it? It might be within the realm of philosophy to apply an answer to that, but the general consensus would probably be "yes." I can (and have) written school papers, screenplays, a book, and countless other things (like love notes) which I continually edit and tweak before I send them on their way. If I turn in a term paper on the due date then attempt to turn in a "revision" a week later, does the professor have an obligation to accept the new version?

Would adding eyebrows to the Mona Lisa change the "story" of that painting? Perhaps. If painted so that she now has a presumed different emotion. So is that version now "the Mona Lisa"? Most people would probably say "not really." It would be more like "Mona Lisa: The Special Edition."

See, despite claims to the contrary, elements in the Prequels do alter the established continuity of the presumed past of the Star Wars story. So if you accept the Prequels as now being the primary source of information, then they render the OT films "incorrect" in which case Lucas has the obligation to redo the OT films to correctly fit the new continuity. But he didn't and probably won't. Instead we are treated to Rube Goldbergian machinations of logic in order to find a way to get the two trilogies to mesh up in some way.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 11:59 AM
So that's the excuse? Lucas' original OT stories are "flawed" therefore the Prequel reimaginings of the continuity is now the correct way to see the story?

Never said they were "flawed." Because Lucas started with Episode IV and then had to go back and write the backstory it facilitated the need to make certain changes much like a writer has to go back and change sentence structure or paragraph structure to make it flow together more cohesively.



Going back and replacing a less than perfect Visual Effects shot is one thing. Going into a film to alter the established story is another. As the owner of a work of art, of course one has the right to do anything you wish. Da Vinci could have added eyebrows, painted over the whole thing, made Mona Lisa mad, or burnt the whole canvas into a little pile of ash. But the question is, once he has declared it "finished" and released it into the world, is that version the end of it? It might be within the realm of philosophy to apply an answer to that, but the general consensus would probably be "yes." I can (and have) written school papers, screenplays, a book, and countless other things (like love notes) which I continually edit and tweak before I send them on their way. If I turn in a term paper on the due date then attempt to turn in a "revision" a week later, does the professor have an obligation to accept the new version?

Certain compromises had to be made. Just because you may not personally agree with it doesn't mean that it should be the way you want it. I don't agree with a lot of the alterations but it's not my story. I've written many papers that once turned in wish that I could go back and make changes to after the fact but I had to accept the "flaws" the way they were whether it affected my overall grade or not. Lucas is constantly tweaking the OT SEVERAL times after the fact but that's his perogative.


Would adding eyebrows to the Mona Lisa change the "story" of that painting? Perhaps. If painted so that she now has a presumed different emotion. So is that version now "the Mona Lisa"? Most people would probably say "not really." It would be more like "Mona Lisa: The Special Edition."

That's not MY Mona Lisa, but then again, it was never MINE to begin with. If you don't like the eyebrows, paint over them. If you don't like the Special Editions, stick to the theatrical versions. You do have a choice even though Lucas would "prefer" that you accepted his.


See, despite claims to the contrary, elements in the Prequels do alter the established continuity of the presumed past of the Star Wars story. So if you accept the Prequels as now being the primary source of information, then they render the OT films "incorrect" in which case Lucas has the obligation to redo the OT films to correctly fit the new continuity. But he didn't and probably won't. Instead we are treated to Rube Goldbergian machinations of logic in order to find a way to get the two trilogies to mesh up in some way.

I never made any claims to the contrary. The Prequels have and always will alter continuity of the OT as they were first established. When you are trying to connect two pieces together to make them fit certain compromises had to be made. You have to expect that. Lucas had a general backstory for the Prequels in his mind when he wrote the first trilogy but when he sat down to write it all fleshed out he realized certain alterations to his original ideas had to be made and also developed new threads to the plot as he discovered them. I challenge anyone else to write a perfect narrative starting in the middle and then try to write a "flawless" backstory where all of the pieces fit together seamlessly and incontrovertibly. There will always be some details that get overlooked or changed when putting the puzzle together. It was inevitable. That's just how it is. Whether you choose to acknowledge them is again, a matter of personal preference.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 12:46 PM
No, it isn't obvious. He is dressed similarly to the other Imperial officer in that scene, and to the Imperial officer's on the Death Star. There are plenty of stormtroopers on board walking around. Why isn't he already in armor?What?! Of course it's obvious. Vader tells that specific guy in black to go see to it personally. The next thing we see are a bunch of armored Stormtroopers marauding around Tatooine looking for the droids. He was told to go "personally" and we can safely assume that he is one of those STORMtroopers in armor.


That's not a HUGE stretch. True, there is a difference between seeing a number on the screen and actually seeing him demonstrate his Force ability, but just because he wasn't actually observing all of Anakin's TPM exploits doesn't mean he didn't hear about them and be marveled by what he could do.Stretch. A movie SHOWS the audience important elements and doesn't necessitate that the audience make huge leaps to try to string disparate things together. We never see or hear that anyone told Obi Wan about how great a pilot is in the podrace before the decision to train the boy is made. You are assuming everything in order to justify the continuity errors.You are contradicting yourself here. On one hand, you say that since Obi-Wan didn't see Anakin piloting in TPM, that I shouldn't assume that he knew anything about it. On the other hand, you say that it is obvious that some guy in a black uniform must be a stormtrooper. Seeing to it personally could just as easily mean that he went to the surface to oversee the operation. Even if he is a stormtrooper, it doesn't imply that there isn't a stormtrooper that looks like Jango.

Now, you could accuse me of doing the same thing by making an assumption in one case and not the other. However, when watching the films, it never occurred to me that the officers in black could also be stormtroopers. It really isn't relevant to anything anyway. On the other hand, it is safe to assume that Obi-Wan would have heard something about what happened on Tatooine. Through the communications with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan learned of his plan. He even told Qui-Gon that if it didn't work, they'd be stuck for a long time. When it came time to leave, Qui-Gon said he was going back to get the boy who was responsible for getting them the parts. So, he knows who Anakin is and what he did to help them. Plus, to assume that in 10 plus years of being together that Obi-Wan never saw Anakin's piloting skills would be a bit hard to believe.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 01:03 PM
There will always be some details that get overlooked or changed when putting the puzzle together. It was inevitable.


Your entire post boils down to this one core thought that seems to be driving your logic... that it was IMPOSSIBLE to create a backstory that didn't contradict the established continuity of the OT.

Bu**sh**. It was entirely possible to create a Prequel story wherein the established continuity was maintained. I'd be hard pressed to repeat everything I've ever written regarding this issue (the archives of the postings are in SSG somewhere), but the only element I've ever come across that is nearly impossible to resolve with the OT is preserving the element of surprise in regard to the identity of Yoda in ESB. As written and filmed, Luke and the audience are surprised to find that the little green guy on Dagobah is Yoda. With a Prequel story that includes Yoda, it would "ruin" that ESB design. I've put more thought into how to fix that particular problem than I should have and never came up with any reasonable way out of it.

Other than the Yoda problem though, absolutely every other "presumed" Prequel element as predicted by the OT story was entirely possible to create without introducing continuity problems. Lucas is just not a writer capable of pulling it off and his ego wouldn't allow him to employ a qualified writer to do it for him. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to do it, just an experienced writer who cares. But Lucas doesn't care enough about his own story and is more interested in the process and less on the art and quality of it.

And my own dissatisfaction with the Prequels has absolutely nothing to do with what I WANTED to see. That's a bs argument too. My dissatisfaction comes from the fact that the Prequels failed to deliver what was promised by the OT story itself, by the Prequel hints given, and by Lucas's inability to deliver a product of equal or greater quality than the OT films. Blaming my dissatisfaction on my own wants and desires takes the onus off of the films themselves and that's just not correct. The Prequels are inherently flawed in many ways and that has NOTHING to do with mine, or anyone else's, personal bias, wants, and desires.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 01:19 PM
You are contradicting yourself here. On one hand, you say that since Obi-Wan didn't see Anakin piloting in TPM, that I shouldn't assume that he knew anything about it. On the other hand, you say that it is obvious that some guy in a black uniform must be a stormtrooper. Seeing to it personally could just as easily mean that he went to the surface to oversee the operation. Even if he is a stormtrooper, it doesn't imply that there isn't a stormtrooper that looks like Jango.

I don't contradict myself.

First off, you're assuming that the Old Ben comment about Anakin already being a great pilot can and should apply to pod racing and not to piloting a spaceship. If we run with that assumption (which isn't necessarily true), then we still KNOW that Obi Wan didn't witness the Anakin's piloting skills WHEN HE FIRST KNEW HIM. In fact, the two times that Anakin flies anything in TPM, Obers isn't around. And even if you wanted to count the final battle of TPM, Ani didn't really display great piloting skills. His "success" was entirely accidental from start to finish. The statute of limitations on "when I first knew him" runs out quickly after TPM and it is very safe to assume that Obi Wan wouldn't witness Anakin piloting anything until much later in his training, likely a few years later.

As far as the guy in black being a Stormtrooper or not, when did YOU see any Imperials on the surface of Tatooine who were not in armor? Vader told the guy to go see to it personally which means that he goes down and sees to it personally. That doesn't mean that he sits in some air-conditioned office while the armored troops roam around the planet looking for the droids and killing Jawas. "Personally" means that he's in there, getting his hands dirty, wearing white armor and killing whoever it takes to find the droids. Therefore, the guy in black on the Tantive IV left Vader, went to his locker, put on his Sandtrooper outfit, then took a squad to the surface to find the droids. I really can't imagine how anyone in the audience could see the situation any different than that.

So, if the guy in black is a Stormtrooper, does that alone tell us that OT Troopers aren't Jango Clones? No, not that ONE instance alone. But if you look back through the posts here, I've made several points which pretty much tell us logically that no OT Troopers were clones. If you'd like to address all of those points, I'd be more than happy to entertain discussion about them, but you're right, just one instance isn't proof enough which is why I found several.


Now, you could accuse me of doing the same thing by making an assumption in one case and not the other. However, when watching the films, it never occurred to me that the officers in black could also be stormtroopers. It really isn't relevant to anything anyway. On the other hand, it is safe to assume that Obi-Wan would have heard something about what happened on Tatooine. Through the communications with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan learned of his plan. He even told Qui-Gon that if it didn't work, they'd be stuck for a long time. When it came time to leave, Qui-Gon said he was going back to get the boy who was responsible for getting them the parts. So, he knows who Anakin is and what he did to help them. Plus, to assume that in 10 plus years of being together that Obi-Wan never saw Anakin's piloting skills would be a bit hard to believe.

The key is Spirit Ben's words "WHEN I FIRST KNEW HIM." That tells us, well, when he first knew him which was during TPM. And as I've already stated, Obers didn't witness nor heard about the podrace ONSCREEN therefore it would be an illogical assumption to assume that anyone told Obers about how well Anakin can fly. If Qui Gon said anything, given his character, he likely would have been fairly non-detailed and just said that "Ani won a podrace and that gave him the money for the parts they need. Now fix the hyperdrive and let's get off this dustbowl." Going into detail about what a great pilot Ani was would have been extraneous information at that point. Sure, later on during Anakin's training, Obers probably saw Anakin pilot something, but "when I first knew him" was during TPM and Obers saw and heard nothing at all about it. Therefore, the Prequels altered the established OT continuity.

2-1B
12-02-2007, 01:51 PM
stillakid, they could have kept Yoda a secret by not even having him in the PT...if the story focused on Obi-Wan, Anakin, Palpatine, random other Jedi, etc, with Yoda only being REFERENCED by Obi-Wan and Anakin, then it could have been done successfully.

The Imp Officer in ANH was not a Stormtrooper. Veers kept his military dress on when he hopped in that AT-AT, he just added a shell around his torso and that hard hat. He didn't dress up as an AT-AT Driver-Stormtrooper or a Snowtrooper either.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 02:01 PM
stillakid, they could have kept Yoda a secret by not even having him in the PT...if the story focused on Obi-Wan, Anakin, Palpatine, random other Jedi, etc, with Yoda only being REFERENCED by Obi-Wan and Anakin, then it could have been done successfully.

Yeah, I thought of that possibility. You're right in that it's the only way to achieve the desired result. But I can't see how a Prequel story that shows Obi Wan deciding to train Anakin because he thinks he can do it "just as well as Yoda" without showing Yoda at some point is possible. I mean, it is possible, but to tell the story in the best way possible, Yoda would have to make an appearance in some way. And to exclude him for the sole purpose of preserving the element of surprise in ESB doesn't seem to be enough to justify it.


The Imp Officer in ANH was not a Stormtrooper. Veers kept his military dress on when he hopped in that AT-AT, he just added a shell around his torso and that hard hat. He didn't dress up as an AT-AT Driver-Stormtrooper or a Snowtrooper either.
No, but Veers was commanding a tank. That doesn't mean that the guy in black in ANH didn't put on his armor. We don't see the guy in black on the surface of Tatooine. All we see are white armored Stormtroopers, and because Vader told the guy to see to it personally, we can make an educated assumption that the guy did just that by donning the armor and being on the ground looking for the droids.

Veers didn't have to put on Snowtrooper armor to accomplish his mission so he didn't. He wasn't going to be in the trenches. He wasn't driving the AT-AT either so he didn't put their kind of armor on either. He wasn't scouting, so he didn't wear Bikerscout armor or piloting a TIE Fighter. He was going to be in a heated AT-AT cockpit blowing sh** up so he put on what he needed and got a decaf-Latte as soon as he was done.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 02:19 PM
Which of those sandtroopers was the imperial officer? When I watched the movie, it never occurred to me that any one of those troopers was the guy we saw unmasked, and it really doesn't matter if he is. Saying that some of the stormtroopers might be clones doesn't contradict anything from the OT. There is no evidence one way or the other in the OT as to whether there exists a stormtrooper that looks like Jango. The PT provides evidence that some of them might be without changing anything from the OT. Even before the PT, there were people who believed that the stormtroopers were clones, so it is certainly possible.

Also, I will reiterate that Obi-Wan never stated in ROTJ that he saw Anakin piloting. He only stated that he was a good pilot. On screen we hear him talking to Qui-Gon and saying, "What if this plan fails?" So, he knew what was going on. Qui-Gon later tells him Anakin is the one responsible for getting them the parts they need. So, Obi-Wan knew who Anakin was and what he had done.

Finally, if you want to go by what is in the OT remember another thing Obi-Wan said to Luke. "Many of the truths we cling to depend upon our point of view." While I do admit that there are some things that require quite a bit of a stretch, these two items we have been discussing are not among them. They make sense and don't require any major leaps of logic to fit with what was in the OT.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-02-2007, 02:34 PM
I'm not going to get into this p*ssing contest over the PT vs. the OT for the eight millionth time, but I wanted to respond to this:

Two things here: First, the box doesn't mention anything about these being "repaints of the VTAC snowtroopers." It's a non-argument. Two, assuming someone knows that, whose to say that we all actually have the original VTAC snowtroopers. Evidently I don't because I've never seen a Snowtrooper with removable helmet before and didn't know they existed before two days ago.
There are numerous sites on the internet - this one, for example, as well as Rebelscum - that keep extensive photo archives. If you're worried in the future about getting an OT trooper with a Jango head, you are more than welcome to look on there and check. Even if you didn't know the snowtroopers from the Hoth set were the VTAC ones, you could have found out that they had removable helmets before you purchased the set.

I know you're going to personally attack me now and compare me to a political pundit, but you can do the research in the future if you're really that worried about it.

One more thing - it has been stated in the EU (such as the Battlefront II video game, for one) that, by the time of ANH, there are still Jango clones as well as "normal" recruits. I'm fairly sure that Lucas has also made similar statements, but I can't back that up.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 03:04 PM
Your entire post boils down to this one core thought that seems to be driving your logic... that it was IMPOSSIBLE to create a backstory that didn't contradict the established continuity of the OT.


Not impossible but very complicated and difficult to resolve all loose ends and tie all of the plot threads together seamlessly without some threads getting tangled and the continuity getting somewhat skewed.



Bu**sh**. It was entirely possible to create a Prequel story wherein the established continuity was maintained. I'd be hard pressed to repeat everything I've ever written regarding this issue (the archives of the postings are in SSG somewhere), but the only element I've ever come across that is nearly impossible to resolve with the OT is preserving the element of surprise in regard to the identity of Yoda in ESB. As written and filmed, Luke and the audience are surprised to find that the little green guy on Dagobah is Yoda. With a Prequel story that includes Yoda, it would "ruin" that ESB design. I've put more thought into how to fix that particular problem than I should have and never came up with any reasonable way out of it.

From Luke's point of view it is a surprise and since we are following Luke's story in the OT he does not know Yoda is this little green guy even though the audience now already has precognition of this because the perspective of the PT has changed this. Again, another example of OT Bias altering perspective. Vader never seems to recall owning the droids in Empire even though he built C-3PO as a child. He acts like it's just another protocol droid even though R2 is with him. Maybe he knows, maybe he doesn't, but it seems a rather trivial point anyhow compared to the overall story.



Other than the Yoda problem though, absolutely every other "presumed" Prequel element as predicted by the OT story was entirely possible to create without introducing continuity problems. Lucas is just not a writer capable of pulling it off and his ego wouldn't allow him to employ a qualified writer to do it for him. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to do it, just an experienced writer who cares. But Lucas doesn't care enough about his own story and is more interested in the process and less on the art and quality of it.

I won't argue Lucas' failings as a writer. He is a storyteller. He conceived the backstory then had to figure out how to make it all fit together. Granted a more experienced and talented writer could have made it work better and done so with a lot more finesse but Lucas wanted to do it himself because it was his baby but most of the "perceived" continuity problems are just that and nitpicky at best like "Anakin was a good friend." I never got the impression that Anakin and Obi-Wan we're good friends. It was more like Obi-Wan playing big brother to Anakin's juvenile antics. It was his job to look after him but they never we're particularly close. Perhaps in hindsight, Anakin was the closest thing to a friend he ever had so the value he placed on their relationship had changed, especially after having so many regrets for his failings as a Master.



And my own dissatisfaction with the Prequels has absolutely nothing to do with what I WANTED to see. That's a bs argument too. My dissatisfaction comes from the fact that the Prequels failed to deliver what was promised by the OT story itself, by the Prequel hints given, and by Lucas's inability to deliver a product of equal or greater quality than the OT films. Blaming my dissatisfaction on my own wants and desires takes the onus off of the films themselves and that's just not correct. The Prequels are inherently flawed in many ways and that has NOTHING to do with mine, or anyone else's, personal bias, wants, and desires.

I won't argue that the quality and integrity of the OT is superior to the PT but even the OT is inherrently "flawed" as well. We we're just more forgiving in the face of overwhelming quality and awe. Lucas could have put more effort into the writing and performances of the PT to be on par with that of the OT, continuity wise when trying to resolve all of the loose ends some things had to be altered or otherwise "appear" to be altered because of the change in perspective. So what he told us was true, "from a certain point of view."

stillakid
12-02-2007, 03:04 PM
\

There are numerous sites on the internet - this one, for example, as well as Rebelscum - that keep extensive photo archives. If you're worried in the future about getting an OT trooper with a Jango head, you are more than welcome to look on there and check. Even if you didn't know the snowtroopers from the Hoth set were the VTAC ones, you could have found out that they had removable helmets before you purchased the set.

So now I have to go do specific research about every available toy out there to see what's under the helmet? Seriously!? The BOX that the toy comes in should tell the consumer what's in it and what the features are. I shouldn't be expected to do extra homework in the library or on the computer to find out something so basic. That's a ridiculous argument. That's like suggesting that I should read the novelization of a story in order to fully understand a movie or look to the internet to tell me about my new couch. Ridiculous. Just because some geeks have all the time in the world to do extensive research about every available toy out there doesn't mean that casual collectors or even kids should be expected to waste as much time just to know what they are buying.



One more thing - it has been stated in the EU (such as the Battlefront II video game, for one) that, by the time of ANH, there are still Jango clones as well as "normal" recruits. I'm fairly sure that Lucas has also made similar statements, but I can't back that up.

There are also video games that state that all of the Stormtroopers are "volunteered" by the Empire to go fight for them (TIE FIGHT for one as well as XWING). Point being, OFF SCREEN information isn't a valuable source because so much of it continually contradicts what is seen in the film versions of the films.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-02-2007, 03:20 PM
So now I have to go do specific research about every available toy out there to see what's under the helmet? Seriously!? The BOX that the toy comes in should tell the consumer what's in it and what the features are. I shouldn't be expected to do extra homework in the library or on the computer to find out something so basic. That's a ridiculous argument. That's like suggesting that I should read the novelization of a story in order to fully understand a movie or look to the internet to tell me about my new couch. Ridiculous. Just because some geeks have all the time in the world to do extensive research about every available toy out there doesn't mean that casual collectors or even kids should be expected to waste as much time just to know what they are buying.
If you have enough time to pore over every single detail of films you absolutely hate and write nonstop about them, then surely you have the time to look at a photo of a $49 item you are thinking of buying.


There are also video games that state that all of the Stormtroopers are "volunteered" by the Empire to go fight for them (TIE FIGHT for one as well as XWING). Point being, OFF SCREEN information isn't a valuable source because so much of it continually contradicts what is seen in the film versions of the films.
By that logic, aren't the figures also OFF SCREEN information, as you may put it, meaning that they are are not valuable sources of information on the films and therefore should be disregarded?

And don't f*cking call me a geek. I'm sorry for whatever marital problems you are having, but this is getting ridiculous.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-02-2007, 03:25 PM
So now I have to go do specific research about every available toy out there to see what's under the helmet? Seriously!? The BOX that the toy comes in should tell the consumer what's in it and what the features are.The box does say what's in it. Snowtroopers. You get the surprise bonus feature that the helmets are removable. If you look closely, you can tell that at least one of them has a removable helmet without opening the package. If they are going to have a removable helmet, they have to put someone's head on the figure.



There are also video games that state that all of the Stormtroopers are "volunteered" by the Empire to go fight for them (TIE FIGHT for one as well as XWING). Point being, OFF SCREEN information isn't a valuable source because so much of it continually contradicts what is seen in the film versions of the films.Did they actually say that ALL stormtroopers are volunteered?

stillakid
12-02-2007, 03:26 PM
Which of those sandtroopers was the imperial officer?
I don't know... one of them was the guy in black. Remember the trooper who found the parts and said "Look, sir, droids!" Well, whoever that dude was talking to was probably the guy in black from the Tantive. Seriously, how difficult is this?


When I watched the movie, it never occurred to me that any one of those troopers was the guy we saw unmasked, and it really doesn't matter if he is.
You declaring that it doesn't matter doesn't make it so. It DOES matter relative to the discussion. Because the guy in black on the Tantive is not a Jango clone and does go to Tatooine in Stormtrooper armor, it is part of the entire discussion of whether OT troopers are clones are not. Because HE is not a Jango look-alike, we can say for certain that not all Troopers are clones. And from additional information stated earlier in this thread, it is highly likely that NONE of the OT Stormtroopers could be Jango clones.




Saying that some of the stormtroopers might be clones doesn't contradict anything from the OT. There is no evidence one way or the other in the OT as to whether there exists a stormtrooper that looks like Jango. The PT provides evidence that some of them might be without changing anything from the OT. Even before the PT, there were people who believed that the stormtroopers were clones, so it is certainly possible.
Really? Who? I'd like names and contact information so we can ask them directly about their beliefs and how they possibly arrived at them prior to the Prequels being released.

Thanks in advance! :)




Also, I will reiterate that Obi-Wan never stated in ROTJ that he saw Anakin piloting. He only stated that he was a good pilot. On screen we hear him talking to Qui-Gon and saying, "What if this plan fails?" So, he knew what was going on. Qui-Gon later tells him Anakin is the one responsible for getting them the parts they need. So, Obi-Wan knew who Anakin was and what he had done.
Obi knew that the parts were on the way because of what Anakin had done. For all Obi knew, Anakin sold himself as a child***** or pimped out his mom. You're assuming that the following conversation took place:



QUI GON
We have the money for the parts.

OBI WAN
Really? How?

QUI GON
Anakin won the pod race. He is an amazing pilot. I've never seen a human who can pilot a pod like he can. I'm sure that he must also be an amazing pilot in space too. I know you didn't see it and are taking my word for it, but Anakin is an amazing pilot. And when you combine that with his high Midichlorian count from the convenient Midichlorian counter that just happens to be in the Queen's Starship, YOU should easily conclude that Anakin is strong with the Force and YOU should decide to train him because YOU think you can do just as well as Yoda.


OBI WAN

Ok.



Finally, if you want to go by what is in the OT remember another thing Obi-Wan said to Luke. "Many of the truths we cling to depend upon our point of view." While I do admit that there are some things that require quite a bit of a stretch, these two items we have been discussing are not among them. They make sense and don't require any major leaps of logic to fit with what was in the OT.

So, not only did that conversation NOT take place, the Prequels contradict what Spirit Ben says in Episode VI because Obi DIDN'T know that Anakin was a great pilot... Obi Wan DIDN'T decide to train Anakin because he was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him (Obi Wan decided to train Ani because he promised Qui Gon that he would despite Obi's own doubts about it...there was NO other reason)... and Obi thought he could do it just as well as Yoda, but Yoda was not his teacher... Qui Gon was.

The OT tells us that Obi Wan discovered Anakin, witnessed enough of his piloting to know that he was a great pilot and because of it, realized that Anakin had potential to be a Force user, then decided to train him on his own out of ego that he could do it just as well as his own teacher, Yoda. That's the story that LUCAS HIMSELF set up in the OT then decided to contradict years later. That's not ME deciding what I wanted or preferred. That's LUCAS'S! own story he wrote with the help of Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan.

The "point of view" argument is a last ditch effort and I have continually been shocked by how often apologists resort to it to justify the Prequels. The "point of view" discussion was about one single thing: the multiple personalities that inhabit the body of Anakin Skywalker. Period.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 03:35 PM
If you have enough time to pore over every single detail of films you absolutely hate and write nonstop about them, then surely you have the time to look at a photo of a $49 item you are thinking of buying.
It takes almost zero time to realize what is wrong with a narrative that violates established continuity.

I like the toys and I like buying them. None of the Snowtroopers were "dehelmeted" in the box so the only reasonable way of finding out that A) the helmets come off and B) that Jango's head is underneath is by buying it and finding out afterwards.

Unless A) the box itself tells the consumer what is in there ...and it doesn't, and B) the consumer scours the internet for information that may or may not even exist.

I mean, why would I EVER assume that a Jango head would be under a SnowTrooper's helmet? It would never occur to me that anyone would ever think of doing such a thing, so why would I even think to go looking for that kind of information?



By that logic, aren't the figures also OFF SCREEN information, as you may put it, meaning that they are are not valuable sources of information on the films and therefore should be disregarded?
I was just countering your off-screen information with other off-screen information, all of which I've always said is immaterial. :)


And don't f*cking call me a geek.
I didn't call YOU a geek.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 03:41 PM
The box does say what's in it. Snowtroopers. You get the surprise bonus feature that the helmets are removable. If you look closely, you can tell that at least one of them has a removable helmet without opening the package. If they are going to have a removable helmet, they have to put someone's head on the figure.
I didn't "look closely." Should I be required to? I actually didn't really know these huge boxes existed until I ran into them by surprise at Target. I glanced over them quickly and put them in my cart.

So yeah, it is a surprise bonus feature that the helmets come off and I like that. The real surprise is that they stuck Jango's face inside. The question that this thread poses is "why?"



Did they actually say that ALL stormtroopers are volunteered?
Well, honestly, I think I sold those games off in a garage sale years ago. :) So I can't check to say one way or the other. But the point is first that no EU sources are reliable enough to offer an explanation to the question. Second, the onscreen information in the OT suggests that Stormtroopers are not clones.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 03:42 PM
I mean, why would I EVER assume that a Jango head would be under a SnowTrooper's helmet? It would never occur to me that anyone would ever think of doing such a thing, so why would I even think to go looking for that kind of information?


Because you are OT Biased and therefore the thought, God forbid, that the Snowtroopers might look like Jango, had never occurred to you because you were happy with your OT biased suppositions to the contrary. Anyway, who cares if the figure has a removeable helmet or not? Leave it on or simply don't buy it if it is too much of a detractor for you. Some of us naturally surmised that the Snowtroopers might, in fact, be Jango Clones so we accepted the feature even though it is never shown onscreen. To most of us, it just makes sense. If that violates your perception of the OT, too bad.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 03:46 PM
To most of us, it just makes sense.
Most? Are there numbers to back that up? :)



If that violates your perception of the OT, too bad. It's not "my perception." It's what the OT IS and how it the toy is "infected" with misinformation from the Prequels that violates established continuity.

My own "perception" has nothing to do with it. :) I just see what's there and comment afterwards.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 03:50 PM
Most? Are there numbers to back that up? :)
Now you are just arguing for the sake of argument. Get over it.



It's not "my perception." It's what the OT IS and how it the toy is "infected" with misinformation from the Prequels that violates established continuity.
Wrong. That's the way it is to YOU. You can *choose* to believe it's Don Rickles under the mask if it makes your belief of what the OT is better but the fact is that it has been established that there are clones, most likely from Jango.


My own "perception" has nothing to do with it. :) I just see what's there and comment afterwards.
Obviously it does otherwise you wouldn't be so fervent with your incessant nagging comments. :)

Phantom-like Menace
12-02-2007, 03:52 PM
Who's responsible for this!? :mad:

I blame all of the toy buyers who want removable helmets, softgoods, super-duper-ultra-deluxe articulation, real bed wetting action and essentially everything up to and including a friend in miniature. If they have to have removable helmets to satisfy these people, they've got to put something under them. Whether Jango clones are the exception or not, it's solid fact that there are some.

Otherwise, I agree superglue sounds like a viable option.

bigbarada
12-02-2007, 04:22 PM
I blame all of the toy buyers who want removable helmets

Only when relevant to what we see onscreen.


softgoods

Yes, when done right, they look great.:yes:


super-duper-ultra-deluxe articulation

Yes.:love:


real bed wetting action

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that but it's a great idea! :thumbsup: I'll go start up the thread in the Dear Hasbro section.:p

Bosskman
12-02-2007, 04:25 PM
Any 10 year old boy who can (with the help of an astromech droid, a very smart one) destroy an entire battleship with a single fighter craft when an entire wing of fighter pilots gets blasted out of space, can be reasonably assumed to be a good pilot - pod racing or not. Obi Wan "met" anakin in TPM but didn't really "know" him. His statement in ANH can be fitted into this but it could (and in my opinion should) have been shown differently in TPM.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 05:25 PM
Any 10 year old boy who can (with the help of an astromech droid, a very smart one) destroy an entire battleship with a single fighter craft when an entire wing of fighter pilots gets blasted out of space, can be reasonably assumed to be a good pilot - pod racing or not.
But everything Ani "accomplished" in that sequence was an accident. Ani didn't fly out of the hangar on his own. The auto pilot took him to the battle. He was having "fun" spinning around and just happened to fly into the hangar bay and skid to a stop by accident. He couldn't take off because the engines overheated so he started blasting bad guys and just happened to hit a reactor by accident. He then managed to start the engines up again for story convenience and managed to escape the self destructing Federation ship in the nick of time by accident.

Not one thing he did in that sequence illustrates what a "great pilot" Anakin was.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 05:30 PM
Now you are just arguing for the sake of argument. Get over it.
That'd be a "no" then. Fair enough. :)



Wrong. That's the way it is to YOU. You can *choose* to believe it's Don Rickles under the mask if it makes your belief of what the OT is better but the fact is that it has been established that there are clones, most likely from Jango.
Established by Hasbro. When did we ever see a Jango head under a Stormtrooper mask onscreen in ANH, ESB, or ROTJ? For all we know, it COULD BE Don Rickles faces under all the Stormtrooper masks in the OT. There is nothing to indicate in the OT or the Prequels that any OT Imperial Trooper has any relation to Jango Fett. Lucas's own screenplays prove that the term Clonetrooper is replaced with "Stormtrooper" from Episode IV on to the end and the term "clone" is never used in the OT except to reference some long ago war.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 05:41 PM
That'd be a "no" then. Fair enough. :)

Thanks for proving my point with that comment. :thumbsup:




Established by Hasbro. When did we ever see a Jango head under a Stormtrooper mask onscreen in ANH, ESB, or ROTJ? For all we know, it COULD BE Don Rickles faces under all the Stormtrooper masks in the OT. There is nothing to indicate in the OT or the Prequels that any OT Imperial Trooper has any relation to Jango Fett. Lucas's own screenplays prove that the term Clonetrooper is replaced with "Stormtrooper" from Episode IV on to the end and the term "clone" is never used in the OT except to reference some long ago war.

And approved by LFL. By Episode IV the term Clonetrooper might have been generic and passe so the term Stormtrooper became the standard. In ROTS we had BARC Troopers and ARC Troopers, all of which were a classification of clones. It is a designation of military classification. Man, you really need to get past this. You are more hung up on having your precious predalections of the OT "infected" than Lucas is of making them to his satisfaction.

stillakid
12-02-2007, 06:23 PM
Thanks for proving my point with that comment. :thumbsup:

I did? :confused:

I asked:


Originally Posted by stillakid http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?p=583711#post583711)
Most? Are there numbers to back that up? :)


and you replied with out numbers to back that up. So the obvious answer to my question is that, no, you had no numbers to back up your conclusion thereby negating your statement meant to discredit my supposition. So I'm not sure how I "proved your point" (whatever point that was) in any of that. You merely proved that you made a statement without any evidence to support it.




And approved by LFL.
Really? I'm not questioning, I just really don't know how much leeway Hasbro gets in naming characters or creating faces or accessories and what have you. Does LFL really approve every detail that comes out of Hasbro?


By Episode IV the term Clonetrooper might have been generic and passe so the term Stormtrooper became the standard.
"might have been." Right. So no one really has any evidence on why the designation changed. So the only remaining alternative is to believe that since they aren't called "Clonetroopers" anymore, it means that they are not Clones anymore and are just regular ol' guys. No?





In ROTS we had BARC Troopers and ARC Troopers, all of which were a classification of clones. It is a designation of military classification.
According to whom?


Man, you really need to get past this. You are more hung up on having your precious predalections of the OT "infected" than Lucas is of making them to his satisfaction.
Nah, I just have fun finding holes in arguments. It's an enjoyable hobby and nothing personal against anyone. :)

I really don't give a sh** what face is under the removable Snowtrooper helmet. I still think that it's "wrong," but it's just interesting hearing how far some people are willing to stretch logic to justify it. :yes:

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 06:36 PM
I did? :confused:

I asked:

Most? Are there numbers to back that up?


and you replied with out numbers to back that up. So the obvious answer to my question is that, no, you had no numbers to back up your conclusion thereby negating your statement meant to discredit my supposition. So I'm not sure how I "proved your point" (whatever point that was) in any of that. You merely proved that you made a statement without any evidence to support it.

You were being a smart-arse. My response was that you were arguing for the sake of argument.





Really? I'm not questioning, I just really don't know how much leeway Hasbro gets in naming characters or creating faces or accessories and what have you. Does LFL really approve every detail that comes out of Hasbro?

Yes, LFL approves every piece of Star Wars licensed merchandise.



"might have been." Right. So no one really has any evidence on why the designation changed. So the only remaining alternative is to believe that since they aren't called "Clonetroopers" anymore, it means that they are not Clones anymore and are just regular ol' guys. No?

As has been stated over and over again in this thread SOME could be non-clones however it's pretty much been stated by Lucas that they are clones.






According to whom?


Tell you what, why don't you e-mail Steve Sansweet and let him answer that question for you since you are obviously expecting an answer from someone closely related to LucasFilm with the credentials to make it an "official" position on the subject.



Nah, I just have fun finding holes in arguments. It's an enjoyable hobby and nothing personal against anyone. :)
I really don't give a sh** what face is under the removable Snowtrooper helmet. I still think that it's "wrong," but it's just interesting hearing how far some people are willing to stretch logic to justify it. :yes:

Alas, poor Horatio! Now maybe we can move on with this pointless debate about "infecting" the OT over a child's toy.

Bosskman
12-02-2007, 07:00 PM
I agree but since the only ones who actually SAW Anakin accidentaly blow up the ship were the BDs stationed there, (and they all blew up) and R2, (who wouldn't tell anyone)Anakin looked as if he did which would lead everyone to believe (Obi Wan included) that he blew it up on his own.

2-1B
12-02-2007, 07:29 PM
Kinda like his "heroic" defeat of Count Dooku. lol

Devo
12-02-2007, 07:42 PM
To illustrate the point of inconsistency between the trilogies we really could do with having an adult of intelligence, who somehow has managed not to ever see either trilogy, watch them in the order Lucas intends I-VI and then get him/her to tell us if Obi-wan's story in ROTJ sums up accurately what he/she witnessed in I-III. For it is that story told by spirit Obi-wan in ROTJ that can be assumed to be most reliable - Ben has no reason to lie or alter 'points of view' at that point in the saga overall since Luke knows the pivotal facts relevant to his situation.

Now lets talk about the whole Uncle Owen/Obi-wan situation!!

stillakid
12-02-2007, 07:52 PM
You were being a smart-arse. My response was that you were arguing for the sake of argument.
I was not! You stated something (many people) and I merely asked for you to back that statement up with specifics. If you can't, just admit that you can't. If you can, then I'm more than happy to review the evidence. Simple as that. Bringing unjustified personal attacks into it is kind of uncalled for, don't you think? :yes:





Yes, LFL approves every piece of Star Wars licensed merchandise.
So someone at LFL approved the Jango likeness under the Snowtrooper removable helmet? Again, I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Is there information you read somewhere that states that that we could read? Or did that information come verbally, such as from a Hasbro rep at a convention? :confused:





As has been stated over and over again in this thread SOME could be non-clones however it's pretty much been stated by Lucas that they are clones.
"Pretty much" or "definitely" stated? And where can I find a video clip or interview with Lucas where he states this? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just really am interested in hearing him say it for myself. :)







Tell you what, why don't you e-mail Steve Sansweet and let him answer that question for you since you are obviously expecting an answer from someone closely related to LucasFilm with the credentials to make it an "official" position on the subject.
Maybe I will! I've always wanted one of my questions to appear in Bantha Tracks. :)




Alas, poor Horatio! Now maybe we can move on with this pointless debate about "infecting" the OT over a child's toy.
I don't know that it is "pointless." The question is valid and clearly leads to exploring other relative issues and interests in a hobby so many people enjoy. :yes:

bigbarada
12-02-2007, 08:25 PM
If you watch Ep2 with the George Lucas commentary turned on, during the scene where Jango climbs into the Slave 1 after fighting Obi-Wan on Kamino, Lucas mentions that he wanted Jango to bump his head while walking through the doorway of the Slave 1 as a sort of retroactive foreshadowing of why all the OT Stormtroopers are always bumping their heads on doorways.

So that lends credibility to the idea of all the OT troopers being Jango clones. More likely, though, it's just more evidence that Lucas has lost his mind. While he's busy trying to explain little tidbits that really mean nothing (for instance, who cares why Threepio always had a silver leg?), he's completely ignoring or disregarding plotlines that NEED to be resolved.

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 08:33 PM
I was not! You stated something (many people) and I merely asked for you to back that statement up with specifics. If you can't, just admit that you can't. If you can, then I'm more than happy to review the evidence. Simple as that. Bringing unjustified personal attacks into it is kind of uncalled for, don't you think? :yes:






So someone at LFL approved the Jango likeness under the Snowtrooper removable helmet? Again, I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Is there information you read somewhere that states that that we could read? Or did that information come verbally, such as from a Hasbro rep at a convention? :confused:





"Pretty much" or "definitely" stated? And where can I find a video clip or interview with Lucas where he states this? I'm not trying to be difficult, I just really am interested in hearing him say it for myself. :)



Yes, you are being difficult. Give it up dude. If you can't do a little leg work on your own like researching product information about what you are buying (and you are a collector?!?!? Bah!) then you can't expect to get a direct answer from the Allmighty George's lips. Pray and maybe God will give you the answer you want to hear.






Maybe I will! I've always wanted one of my questions to appear in Bantha Tracks. :)

That's the spirit! :thumbsup:





I don't know that it is "pointless." The question is valid and clearly leads to exploring other relative issues and interests in a hobby so many people enjoy. :yes:

I don't know what your hangup about it is. There is a variety of PT and EU influenced variations on the market now to make everyone happy... or not as in your case. Don't like it, don't buy it. Quit beating a dead horse. Oh, I guess that's what others around here constantly say you do anyway. :D

2-1B
12-02-2007, 10:15 PM
Are you always this difficult? I can see why you are having marital problems.

Come on, that was mean. :( We can all have a go at each other for having different views on these flicks but that's kinda low there--the purpose of these movies (and their discussion) should be escapist in nature so let's not get personal.

I stilla thinka stillakid isa crazy for the whole "imperial officer was a stormtrooper" theory, though. Why wasn't he wearing his stormie gear at the beginning of ANH, then? He was there for part of the invasion on the blockade runner, why was he in officer's garb there while the rest of the clones (:D) were in trooper gear ?

decadentdave
12-02-2007, 11:09 PM
Come on, that was mean. :( We can all have a go at each other for having different views on these flicks but that's kinda low there--the purpose of these movies (and their discussion) should be escapist in nature so let's not get personal.


If you have enough time to pore over every single detail of films you absolutely hate and write nonstop about them, then surely you have the time to look at a photo of a $49 item you are thinking of buying.


By that logic, aren't the figures also OFF SCREEN information, as you may put it, meaning that they are are not valuable sources of information on the films and therefore should be disregarded?

And don't f*cking call me a geek. I'm sorry for whatever marital problems you are having, but this is getting ridiculous.

Wasn't personal at all, merely pointing out the obvious and I'm not the only one who brought it up but you can see wherein the source of his troubles may lie. Besides, looks to me he was the one making a personal attack on JabbaJohnL with the childish name-calling but I guess we can expect that because he's Stillakid lol.




I stilla thinka stillakid isa crazy for the whole "imperial officer was a stormtrooper" theory, though. Why wasn't he wearing his stormie gear at the beginning of ANH, then? He was there for part of the invasion on the blockade runner, why was he in officer's garb there while the rest of the clones (:D) were in trooper gear ?He's like a Super[CLONE]Trooper that changes into a mild-manored Imperial Officer after the boarding party has taken control of the ship. Underneath the armor is a full dress officers uniform. The little cannister on his back is to keep his hat in. lol

Deoxyribonucleic
12-03-2007, 01:24 AM
2. "Whining about it." : why does it bother Prequel Worshipers so much that other people don't kiss Lucas's a** and love everything stamped with the Star Wars logo? Or is it that Prequel Worshipers don't want to hear that anyone doesn't worship the things they like? As much as anyone can rationalize their own blind worship, others have the right to express discontent.

Just like the uber religious folks hating atheists or science-minded folks (myself included) for not believing in what they do! That's exactly how I feel when I PROUDLY display my dislike of the prequels. Hence one of the reasons I don't post so much at SSG any longer cuz it's full of a bunch of children who whine whenever someone doesn't like the prequels or doesn't agree with them. :rolleyes: I could give a flying **** who likes them, I do not judge and if the prequels make people happy, that's great. They do NOT make me happy and to-it, to-were, I don't have anything to do with them ('cept Aayla Secuar cuz she's hot and I would not turn down that twilek for sack time) In FACT, I constantly support the prequel habit of my friend's 11 year old cousin and am constantly buying him prequel figs, plus he's a great source to dump all the prequel crap I had during ep1 and 2 where I just had to have everything star wars...I've grown up since then.

How's this, if you like the prequels and don't like it when others display their dislike of them, then don't read or post in this thread or any thread like it. If you do, then have some damned control over yourself!

Now, back to the 'infection' Stilla was talking about. Believe me, I understand the frustrations! I am a big fan of reading star wars books but I only enjoy the ones with OT characters, however, since the prequels came out, there's always some stupid reference to something from those HORRID movies in these books and it irks me that the OT has indeed been infected by the PT, the latter of which I choose to pretend does not exist the best I can.

Stillakid, I heart thee verily :love:

Live and let live people, it's the best thing you can do for yourself and everyone else who has to listen to your crap!

Deoxyribonucleic
12-03-2007, 01:30 AM
Yes, we get it. You've only stated your hate every every chance you get.

You've reached a point where you're redundantly beating a dead horse.

For someone who hates the Prequels so much, you have a sick obsession to rant endlessly about them. Surely you have something better to do than obsess over something you don't like. It's not very productive and surely not healthy.

Who pi**ed in your cheerios? Yet another person who doesn't live and let live. For shame...for shame! :yes:

Really now, what was the purpose of your two negative posts?

Surely you have something better to do than obsess over someone disliking the prequels?

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 01:52 AM
Just like the uber religious folks hating atheists or science-minded folks (myself included) for not believing in what they do!

Or those with OT Bias that bash incessantly on the PT for that matter...



How's this, if you like the prequels and don't like it when others display their dislike of them, then don't read or post in this thread or any thread like it. If you do, then have some damned control over yourself!
What are you, a fascist? Starting a thread ranting about how the PT has infected TOYS from the OT is not only silly but is a solicitation to open criticism from those who feel otherwise and have a right to express their opinions on the subject. Telling people that don't like it not to read or post is again exercising a bias that not only supports and engenders only those with similar prejudiced views about the OT and alienates everyone who thinks otherwise because their opinions are wrong. Again, this is called being biased.



Now, back to the 'infection' Stilla was talking about. Believe me, I understand the frustrations! I am a big fan of reading star wars books but I only enjoy the ones with OT characters, however, since the prequels came out, there's always some stupid reference to something from those HORRID movies in these books and it irks me that the OT has indeed been infected by the PT, the latter of which I choose to pretend does not exist the best I can.
This so-called "infection" is complete and utter nonsense like it's some kind of disease or leprosy that has to be eradicated. It is a manifestation of his reluctance to accept that the PT has irrevocably altered his perception of the OT based on childhood memories. Like Kenobi said, many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own points of view. If that is how he chooses to see the OT that is his right to do so but to say that it is an "infection" that is encroaching on his idea of how the OT should be is ridiculous and preposterous. I can't stand most of the EU but I don't let that interfere with my idea of continuity even though I don't agree with it.

stillakid
12-03-2007, 02:06 AM
I stilla thinka stillakid isa crazy for the whole "imperial officer was a stormtrooper" theory, though. Why wasn't he wearing his stormie gear at the beginning of ANH, then? He was there for part of the invasion on the blockade runner, why was he in officer's garb there while the rest of the clones (:D) were in trooper gear ?

Good question: why wasn't he wearing his dress whites on the Tantive IV?

But first, let's re-examine the evidence that exists. Vader tells that officer in black to go to Tatooine to see to it personally.

Point 1: We should assume that the man in black does just that and does not just armchair quarterback the mission from some air-conditioned suite at the Mos Eisley Hilton.

Point 2: we see plenty of white armored Troopers on the sand and one of them holds up an O-ring and says "Look sir, droids." We can assume that the soldier playing show & tell is talking to a superior who is also in white armor.

Point 3: We see no Imperial officers in black on Tatooine.

Point 4: Point 1 + Point 2 + Point 3 = Man in Black on Tantive IV is one of the white armored Troopers on Tatooine.

So through basic logic and some advanced math, we can conclude that Man in Black = one of the armored Troopers on Tatooine.

So back to the original question, why wasn't Man in Black wearing white armor on Tantive IV? How the hell should I know?! :p The story doesn't tell us that as it tells us so many other things, such as Yoda being Obi Wan's real teacher.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-03-2007, 02:39 AM
What are you, a fascist? Starting a thread ranting about how the PT has infected TOYS from the OT is not only silly but is a solicitation to open criticism from those who feel otherwise and have a right to express their opinions on the subject. Telling people that don't like it not to read or post is again exercising a bias that not only supports and engenders only those with similar prejudiced views about the OT and alienates everyone who thinks otherwise because their opinions are wrong. Again, this is called being biased.Well said. It's like saying "I believe in free speech unless you disagree with me." I have logically presented my argument as to why there could be Jango clones in the OT, only to be told that since we didn't see them, they couldn't possibly have existed because at least one possible stormtrooper didn't look like Jango.



This so-called "infection" is complete and utter nonsense like it's some kind of disease or leprosy that has to be eradicated. It is a manifestation of his reluctance to accept that the PT has irrevocably altered his perception of the OT based on childhood memories. Like Kenobi said, many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own points of view. If that is how he chooses to see the OT that is his right to do so but to say that it is an "infection" that is encroaching on his idea of how the OT should be is ridiculous and preposterous. I can't stand most of the EU but I don't let that interfere with my idea of continuity even though I don't agree with it.That's part of my problem as well. That sounds as much like religious preaching as anything prequel lovers are saying. "I don't play with those evil prequel toys. They shouldn't put a prequel head on my OT figure. We can't have any inter-trilogy mixing." So, it seems that in this case, the prequel lovers are the open-minded ones, while the prequel haters are the closed-minded, intetolerant ones.



Good question: why wasn't he wearing his dress whites on the Tantive IV?

But first, let's re-examine the evidence that exists. Vader tells that officer in black to go to Tatooine to see to it personally.

Point 1: We should assume that the man in black does just that and does not just armchair quarterback the mission from some air-conditioned suite at the Mos Eisley Hilton.

Point 2: we see plenty of white armored Troopers on the sand and one of them holds up an O-ring and says "Look sir, droids." We can assume that the soldier playing show & tell is talking to a superior who is also in white armor.

Point 3: We see no Imperial officers in black on Tatooine.

Point 4: Point 1 + Point 2 + Point 3 = Man in Black on Tantive IV is one of the white armored Troopers on Tatooine.

So through basic logic and some advanced math, we can conclude that Man in Black = one of the armored Troopers on Tatooine. It all depends on what premise you are starting with. What exactly does "see to it personally" mean? The line before that was "send a detachment down to retrieve them." If he was seeing to it personally, wouldn't he be accompanying or taking the detachment rather than sending them. Even if he is a stormtrooper, the point is moot relative to the original point of this thread. If you want to use some real logic and math, the existence of a non-Jango stormtrooper does not imply that all stormtroopers are non-Jango. We also can't say that no stormtrooper is a Jango clone just based on the fact that we didn't see one. We either need to take off the helmet of every trooper or have someone in the movie say that no Jango clones exist anymore. The prequels show there were Jango clones in stormtrooper-like armor at the beginning of the Empire. Nothing in the movies say if or when they stopped making Jango clones. So it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Jango clones might still exist during the OT. It doesn't PROVE that there are still some left, but you can't DISPROVE it based on the evidence. So, if Lucas and Hasbro decide that a stormtrooper looks like Jango, maybe that means that there are some.

Deoxyribonucleic
12-03-2007, 02:40 AM
What are you, a fascist? Telling people that don't like it not to read or post is again exercising a bias that not only supports and engenders only those with similar prejudiced views about the OT and alienates everyone who thinks otherwise because their opinions are wrong. Again, this is called being biased.


Hence the last sentence Mr. DecadentDave. 'If you do, have some damned control.' But you probably didn't read the entire post because you got SO angry that someone disagrees with you that your face turned red, steam came from your ears and all you could think to do was tell 'this person' how it really is. Ahhh poor poor guy. Look at you, already calling me names like fascist and biased and silly and ridiculous. Exercise control my man, exercise control. Oh, but you forgot to read that part and instead decided to put words in my mouth.



Starting a thread ranting about how the PT has infected TOYS from the OT is not only silly but is a solicitation to open criticism

And posting in a toy website is a sign of vast maturity on you part eh, and calling people names is honorable and intelligent as well? Wow, you really take the cake, or instead of cake, perhaps a Nobel prize for hypocrisy :yes



from those who feel otherwise and have a right to express their opinions on the subject.

awww, did you get your little feelings hurt because you feel you can't post your opinions? Awwww, I'm sorry :rolleyes: Even though those words NEVER came out of my mouth. But it is obvious from your rantings that you like to put words in people's mouths to better fit your opinion. :thumbsup:



This so-called "infection" is complete and utter nonsense like it's some kind of disease or leprosy that has to be eradicated. It is a manifestation of his reluctance to accept that the PT has irrevocably altered his perception of the OT based on childhood memories. Like Kenobi said, many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own points of view. If that is how he chooses to see the OT that is his right to do so but to say that it is an "infection" that is encroaching on his idea of how the OT should be is ridiculous and preposterous. I can't stand most of the EU but I don't let that interfere with my idea of continuity even though I don't agree with it.

OK, here you are just contradicting what you said above. Here, let me remind you, lest you forget...Remember now, this is what YOU said...What are you, a fascist? Telling people that don't like it not to read or post is again...what are you DD, fascist for telling someone their opinion is complete and utter nonsense...? Again, remember, this is what you said...exercising a bias that not only supports and engenders only those with similar prejudiced views about the OT and alienates everyone who thinks otherwise because their opinions are wrong. Again, contradicting yourself as you do the same by telling someone their opinion is worthless...let's see you said "complete and utter nonsense..."

And again, telling someone their opinion is 'ridiculous' and ''preposterous is contradictory to all those words you put in my mouth and all those names you called me...I'm sensing a trend here...a trend to throw out what you think are "big" and "exciting" words so that you will come across as intelligent and superior. Can see right through ya old guy.
:thumbsup:

P.S. DecantDave...live and let live because it's the best thing you can do for yourself and everyone else that has to listen to YOUR crap! ;) :love:

Wow, thanks for the romp in the you know what, I'm gonna go have a ciggy now Badda BING Badda BOOM

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 03:11 AM
Hence the last sentence Mr. DecadentDave. 'If you do, have some control.' But you probably didn't read the entire post because you got SO angry that someone disagrees with you that your face turned red, steam came from your ears and all you could think to do was tell 'this person' how it really is. Ahhh poor poor guy. Look at you, already calling me names like fascist and biased and silly and ridiculous. Exercise control my man, exercise control. Oh, but you forgot to read that part and instead decided to put words in my mouth.

Your statement inferred it:

How's this, if you like the prequels and don't like it when others display their dislike of them, then don't read or post in this thread or any thread like it. If you do, then have some damned control over yourself!Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. There's your hypocrisy.




And posting in a toy website is a sign of vast maturity on you part eh, and calling people names is honorable and intelligent as well? Wow, you really take the cake, or instead of cake, perhaps a Nobel prize for hypocrisy :yes
Well you're here posting in a toy website aren't you? And I never called anyone names. I said he was being a jackass. And I'm not the one who called Mr. JabbaJohnL a "geek."




awww, did you get your little feelings hurt because you feel you can't post your opinions? Awwww, I'm sorry :rolleyes: Even though those words NEVER came out of my mouth. But it is obvious from your rantings that you like to put words in people's mouths to better fit your opinion. :thumbsup:
I'm not the one whining about how the toys have "infected" the OT.




OK, here you are just contradicting what you said above. Here, let me remind you, lest you forget...Remember now, this is what YOU said...What are you, a fascist? Telling people that don't like it not to read or post is again...what are you DD, fascist for telling someone their opinion is complete and utter nonsense...? Again, remember, this is what you said...exercising a bias that not only supports and engenders only those with similar prejudiced views about the OT and alienates everyone who thinks otherwise because their opinions are wrong. Again, contradicting yourself as you do the same by telling someone their opinion is worthless...let's see you said "complete and utter nonsense..."
I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. Fact is I actually prefer the theatrical versions of the OT as opposed to the alterations made by the Special Editions to support the PT narrative but I don't let it get in the way of my enjoyment of them. I take the good with the bad. I don't let it "infect" my opinions of them the way others let it "infect" themselves and try to persuade others with nonsense that they too are being "infected" as well. I am open to both views but some of you guys are so narrow minded in your opinions that you can't see beyond your own self-centered prejudices.




And again, telling someone their opinion is 'ridiculous' and ''preposterous is contradictory to all those words you put in my mouth and all those names you called me...I'm sensing a trend here...a trend to throw out what you think are "big" and "exciting" words so that you will come across as intelligent and superior. Can see right through ya old guy.
:thumbsup:What names did I call you? I asked you if you were a fascist, I didn't say you were one, you just implied it in making a political stance by saying that only those that liked the OT should post here and anyone who disagreed should not read or post here which is a derivative of fascist ideology. You then finished your statement by saying "unless you have some damned control over youself!" after inferring your fascist ideology that those who do not agree with you shouldn't post here you have effectively contradicted yourself. Maybe next time you go off making such contradictions you could do well to exercise some self-control.

Deoxyribonucleic
12-03-2007, 05:25 AM
Your statement inferred it:Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. There's your hypocrisy.

Well you're here posting in a toy website aren't you? And I never called anyone names. I said he was being a jackass. And I'm not the one who called Mr. JabbaJohnL a "geek."


I'm not the one whining about how the toys have "infected" the OT.


I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. Fact is I actually prefer the theatrical versions of the OT as opposed to the alterations made by the Special Editions to support the PT narrative but I don't let it get in the way of my enjoyment of them. I take the good with the bad. I don't let it "infect" my opinions of them the way others let it "infect" themselves and try to persuade others with nonsense that they too are being "infected" as well. I am open to both views but some of you guys are so narrow minded in your opinions that you can't see beyond your own self-centered prejudices.


What names did I call you? I asked you if you were a fascist, I didn't say you were one, you just implied it in making a political stance by saying that only those that liked the OT should post here and anyone who disagreed should not read or post here which is a derivative of fascist ideology. You then finished your statement by saying "unless you have some damned control over youself!" after inferring your fascist ideology that those who do not agree with you shouldn't post here you have effectively contradicted yourself. Maybe next time you go off making such contradictions you could do well to exercise some self-control.

Hey What's Your Name,

Sorry, more important things to do than read through all your shenanigans, just saw my name highlighted in your quote section with your first smartass remark...

So, without further adieu...

...read the red sentence below to know how I really feel about what you have to say. Replacing "...that remark." with "...your posts." :thumbsup:

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\/ \/

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 05:30 AM
:confused:

Jedi_Master_Guyute
12-03-2007, 08:50 AM
Folks, stay on topic and knock off the personal attacks. Thanks. :thumbsup:

Neuroleptic
12-03-2007, 09:02 AM
I'v been following this for a bit, and I gotta say, it's a little scary how far people have taken this conversation. I mean, I love star wars and collecting the action figures and such too, but there comes a time when yah gotta say ( . . . and I admit this is blasphamy, but . . . ) It's JUST A MOVIE, and they are JUST TOYS. I think this toppic has loooooong since gone past either of those two statements, and has quickly become as painful to watch as a mudslinging debate in a presedental election.

I didn't realize how uncivilized this forum could get at times, with petty name calling, and harassing eachother because one guy likes the stormtroopers with Jango heads and others dont. It is honestly down right scarry! I seriously wonder if yall are some of the people we have in office in America, cause if you are, it explains a lot of things.

Come on! You all are acting as bad as Trekkies to carry this on this long. (MNHAAAA! Lets get down to the real nitty gritty. Who is better? Picard or Kirk!?) I mean, some of you have been at this so long now, you aren't even making sence!

Can't we all just get along?

Man, this place can get a little rough!

Mad Slanted Powers
12-03-2007, 10:27 AM
I'v been following this for a bit, and I gotta say, it's a little scary how far people have taken this conversation. I mean, I love star wars and collecting the action figures and such too, but there comes a time when yah gotta say ( . . . and I admit this is blasphamy, but . . . ) It's JUST A MOVIE, and they are JUST TOYS. I think this toppic has loooooong since gone past either of those two statements, and has quickly become as painful to watch as a mudslinging debate in a presedental election.

I didn't realize how uncivilized this forum could get at times, with petty name calling, and harassing eachother because one guy likes the stormtroopers with Jango heads and others dont. It is honestly down right scarry! I seriously wonder if yall are some of the people we have in office in America, cause if you are, it explains a lot of things.

Come on! You all are acting as bad as Trekkies to carry this on this long. (MNHAAAA! Lets get down to the real nitty gritty. Who is better? Picard or Kirk!?) I mean, some of you have been at this so long now, you aren't even making sence!

Can't we all just get along?

Man, this place can get a little rough!Agreed. I've tried to remain civil about it. My last post laid out a logical explanation for the trooper situation. If that doesn't convince anyone, then nothing will. So, I might as well argue the point anymore. My final point is this: I see a point in the OT and a point in the PT and I try to draw a line between the two. Those who dislike the prequels seem to be drawing a line between the OT and a point that is contradicted by something in the PT. Both may be well thought out and logical, but one reconciles the trilogies and the other doesn't.

stillakid
12-03-2007, 11:13 AM
What exactly does "see to it personally" mean? The line before that was "send a detachment down to retrieve them." If he was seeing to it personally, wouldn't he be accompanying or taking the detachment rather than sending them. Even if he is a stormtrooper, the point is moot relative to the original point of this thread. If you want to use some real logic and math, the existence of a non-Jango stormtrooper does not imply that all stormtroopers are non-Jango. We also can't say that no stormtrooper is a Jango clone just based on the fact that we didn't see one. We either need to take off the helmet of every trooper or have someone in the movie say that no Jango clones exist anymore. The prequels show there were Jango clones in stormtrooper-like armor at the beginning of the Empire. Nothing in the movies say if or when they stopped making Jango clones. So it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Jango clones might still exist during the OT. It doesn't PROVE that there are still some left, but you can't DISPROVE it based on the evidence. So, if Lucas and Hasbro decide that a stormtrooper looks like Jango, maybe that means that there are some.

I can live with that. :) However I still think that the evidence heavily suggests that there are not Jango Clones in the OT. That said, I can't prove that something does NOT exist, so the burden of proof rests with someone who wants to believe that Jango Clones DO exist in the OT universe. Thus far, the only evidence to suggest such existence is the Hoth Snowtrooper action figure from Hasbro and I believe that most people will agree that EU sources (like toys) are not reliable indicators of what is "canon" and what isn't. Agreed?

Apart from that, I wonder what the motivation is by Hasbro (and LFL?) to "infect" the OT figures with Prequel elements. Are they in cahoots to try to prove that the two trilogies are in fact part of the same larger story despite much more evidence to the contrary? Or was it just a fun thing to do with no ulterior motives?

Droid
12-03-2007, 11:44 AM
(MNHAAAA! Lets get down to the real nitty gritty. Who is better? Picard or Kirk!?)

Kirk!!!!!!!!

Droid
12-03-2007, 11:50 AM
I think that there are many things we can't prove, but we have a general sense of what is true based on the evidence before us. Given that there is no evidence in the original trilogy that the Empire is using clones, and that there is evidence to suggest that they are not, I think it is safer to assume that there are not.

What if I argue that some of the Stormtroopers are robots? There is no way to prove me wrong. We haven't seen all of the Stormtroopers with their armor/helmets off. Maybe that is why they seem to fall over dead when hit with a blaster even though Leia was just fine when she got shot with a blaster without armor. Maybe they just short out.

stillakid
12-03-2007, 12:28 PM
I think that there are many things we can't prove, but we have a general sense of what is true based on the evidence before us. Given that there is no evidence in the original trilogy that the Empire is using clones, and that there is evidence to suggest that they are not, I think it is safer to assume that there are not.

What if I argue that some of the Stormtroopers are robots? There is no way to prove me wrong. We haven't seen all of the Stormtroopers with their armor/helmets off. Maybe that is why they seem to fall over dead when hit with a blaster even though Leia was just fine when she got shot with a blaster without armor. Maybe they just short out.

LOL! Exactly!

That reminds me of this lame B-movie war film from around WWII... the kind where you see the generic army guys marching aimlessly around some jungle island fighting bad guys. Anyway, there's a scene in there where the hero suddenly gets ambushed by some Japanese soldiers. No shots are fired, but the hero successfully fends off his attackers one by one... the first goes down with a punch to the face and the second gets hit IN HIS GUN. No kidding. Our hero takes his gun, hits the enemies gun, and the bad guy falls over dead. Almost as bad as Stormtroopers with their useless armor.

Neuroleptic
12-03-2007, 12:36 PM
Don't most of the stormtroopers get shot in the head and chest? That'd make me fall down preaty darn quick too.

Sinscia Fat'o
12-03-2007, 12:41 PM
Kirk!!!!!!!!

Everyone knows it's Picard!

But serious now, i don't see how alot of this topic really means anything, whether the OT is infected by the PT...is kinda stupid. The PT is star wars, the OT is star wars...Alot of this thread is stating that one is better than the other, and while theatrically it may be, but the toys of the PT are alot better than the OT ones and hasbro has updated the OT with figures that crosses the time gap with the PT, and that's a logical move.

Mister Roboto
12-03-2007, 02:10 PM
Since this is a thread about Star Wars toys and not movies, might I point out that each OT trooper with a Jango head represents an additional tooling cost, which, based on what Hasbro's said before about the cost to produce entire waves having to average out, means a feature or weapon that won't be included on another figure in the wave?

And, since the cost of adding the head to an existing figure is far less than making a new figure, each Stormtrooper with a Jango head means one new figure (be it PT or OT, Cliegg or Yarna) won't be produced at that time, especially since they know there are enough completists still out and about, the troopers will sell? It's a bigger profit margin to make a slight change to a figure and sell it for the same price as a new figure. We already know how greedy Hasbro is.

Besides, a poor fitting helmet on a figure makes it look like butt.

JediTricks
12-03-2007, 04:29 PM
The PT isn't Star Wars, Lucas says so himself (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28846) on the ANH DVD commentary track.


Oh, and it's KIRK all the way!



Deoxy, aren't the twi'lek lekku (or head tails) a little, um... phallic for your interests? ;)


(my posts in this thread are meant to show that I'm not paying attention to the craziness :p)

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 04:48 PM
First off, I dont understand how you didnt know about the helmet thingy, there was a thread on it about the Endor AT-AT with the biker scout, as well as the Tin Biker Scout having a flip up Visor with Jangos head under it.



Well, you see there is this one group of people who I don't see posting on here that are a fairly large buyer of star wars toys: KIDS. Just about everyone here sounds like adult collectors.


My kid loves removable helmets. He doesnt care about whats under them. I could care less whats under them because they arent coming off.



Two things here: First, the box doesn't mention anything about these being "repaints of the VTAC snowtroopers." It's a non-argument. Two, assuming someone knows that, whose to say that we all actually have the original VTAC snowtroopers. Evidently I don't because I've never seen a Snowtrooper with removable helmet before and didn't know they existed before two days ago.

When does ANY Hasbro toy say its a repaint?? They are a given, look who we are dealing with.


They never called them Clonetroopers in the movies, just as they never called anybody Sandtroopers or Snowtroopers.

That's a Hasbro thing.

Exactly, they were called stormtroopers in hoth battle gear on the toys.

http://cgi.ebay.com/STAR-WARS-VINTAGE-MOC-FIGURE-LOT-SNOWTROOPER-XWING-LUKE_W0QQitemZ200180593799QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2475Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem






So, Ben apparently witnesses Anakin's superior flying skills before deciding to train him as a Jedi as a result of Obi's witnessing of these flying skills which evidently prove Anakin's potential as a Jedi. Did you follow that?



No, but Ben was there on Naboo when the Gungans were fighting the BD's and Anakin flew the fighter which shut the droids down. I am sure he heard all about it.

Pod racing - Anakin was the only human to do it, so yes it makes him a great pilot off the bat.


What?! Of course it's obvious. Vader tells that specific guy in black to go see to it personally. The next thing we see are a bunch of armored Stormtroopers marauding around Tatooine looking for the droids. He was told to go "personally" and we can safely assume that he is one of those STORMtroopers in armor.


Why cant I assume he was there but not on screen? I dont buy the argument that he donned armor. Commanders usually stay back and survey the whole thing.

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 04:49 PM
Since this is a thread about Star Wars toys and not movies, might I point out that each OT trooper with a Jango head represents an additional tooling cost, which, based on what Hasbro's said before about the cost to produce entire waves having to average out, means a feature or weapon that won't be included on another figure in the wave?

And, since the cost of adding the head to an existing figure is far less than making a new figure, each Stormtrooper with a Jango head means one new figure (be it PT or OT, Cliegg or Yarna) won't be produced at that time, especially since they know there are enough completists still out and about, the troopers will sell? It's a bigger profit margin to make a slight change to a figure and sell it for the same price as a new figure. We already know how greedy Hasbro is.

Besides, a poor fitting helmet on a figure makes it look like butt.

I agree, they could have used the money for better figures.

bigbarada
12-03-2007, 05:07 PM
The PT isn't Star Wars, Lucas says so himself (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28846) on the ANH DVD commentary track.

Interesting read, but I have trouble believing Lucas when he says that Luke and Leia were meant to be twins all along. ANH and ESB are the best evidence that Lucas is lying.

But it's good to hear him admit that the prequel "story" was nothing more than a few notes on paper connecting a few dots here and there. I seriously doubt he envisioned Battle Droids, Jango Clones, and teenage Queens back in 1973 when he was writing the first draft for Star Wars.


Oh, and it's KIRK all the way!

Picard!:mad:


Deoxy, aren't the twi'lek lekku (or head tails) a little, um... phallic for your interests? ;)

:eek: Yikes! Kind of makes you wonder about all the guys who claim that Twilek women are "sexy." :p


(my posts in this thread are meant to show that I'm not paying attention to the craziness :p)

I tend to skim over all the massive blocks of text, they give me a headache. As far as I know, putting Jango-heads under the helmets of OT troops is still a stupid idea and the Prequels still suck.:yes:

Neuroleptic
12-03-2007, 05:16 PM
I'm going to throw my own vote in for Picard, and just leave the hole Kirk vs. Picard thing alone.

My appologes to anyone who is upset by me putting the conversation off topic . . .

What IS the topic again?

stillakid
12-03-2007, 05:32 PM
What IS the topic again?

I was surprised to find a Prequel Jango Fett head living underneath my OT Snowtrooper removable helmet in the Hoth Battlepack. I want to know how a Prequel abomination found its way into the OT universe.


First off, I dont understand how you didnt know about the helmet thingy, there was a thread on it about the Endor AT-AT with the biker scout, as well as the Tin Biker Scout having a flip up Visor with Jangos head under it.
The Endor AT-AT had a Biker Scout included with a Jango head underneath? Can't say that I noticed, plus it has been a LONG time since I bought that... in fact, now that I think about it, I'm not even sure I opened that box up at all before putting into storage with everything else.

What's a "Tin Biker Scout"?

And as far as reading the threads about these things... well, I didn't I guess. I've been a little busy for the past year and don't always have the chance to scour threads for info like that.




No, but Ben was there on Naboo when the Gungans were fighting the BD's and Anakin flew the fighter which shut the droids down. I am sure he heard all about it.
True, but Anakin's "success" was a complete accident from start to finish and doesn't count even if Obi Wan didn't get the true story.


Pod racing - Anakin was the only human to do it, so yes it makes him a great pilot off the bat.
Again, Obi Wan didn't witness it. The argument here is that in the ROTJ Spirit Ben dialogue, Spirit Ben's monologue connects dots that intend to lead the audience down a road of "cause" and "effect." So, "your father was already a great pilot" means that Obi Wan knew somehow (presumably from witnessing it) that Anakin was a great pilot... that discovery/knowledge by Obi Wan leads Obi Wan to observe that "but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." Realization that Anakin was a great pilot led Obi Wan to believe that the Force was with him.



Why cant I assume he was there but not on screen? I dont buy the argument that he donned armor. Commanders usually stay back and survey the whole thing.
Says who? Vader commanded the guy to go take care of it personally. We only see armored troops on the surface and we have every reason to assume that he is one of them because he is ordered to see to it personally.

Droid
12-03-2007, 05:34 PM
Interesting read, but I have trouble believing Lucas when he says that Luke and Leia were meant to be twins all along. ANH and ESB are the best evidence that Lucas is lying.


I don't know that I believe he thought they were twins when he made ANH either. Although there is an interesting discussion of that in the Making of Star Wars book that came out this year. It suggests at one point he thought about making Luke a girl and then changed the gender back to male, but decided that Leia was the other half of the coin and that he always thought of them as twins after that. It is the best argument that I've heard that he really thought they were twins in ANH. I gues he could be telling the truth. There is nothing in ANH to suggest he isn't her twin.

I think by Empire he did know. I think that if Lucas, rather than Kirchner, had been filming the scene in the medical bay the kiss wouldn't have been so extreme. I think it is another example, like Indy shooting the swordsman in Raiders, of something on set that Lucas didn't really like, but the footage was already done so it ended up in the movie. I also don't think Kirchner knew they were brother and sister, or at least didn't when they filmed that scene. Mark and Carrie didn't find out until they were filming Jedi so I doubt Kirchner knew while filming Empire.

But I think the "no, their is another" sequence and that Leia sensed Luke when he called out to her meant by the time Empire was made Lucas knew they were brother and sister.

Neuroleptic
12-03-2007, 05:58 PM
There is only one biiiiig glaring problem I truly have with the prequils when I watch them. It's got nothing to do with all stormtroopers and boba fett being related (though in EU lore, one of the rumors was that boba fett was a former stormtrooper, wich given that he is a clone kinda makes that theory make sence now . . .), the hole debate about Ben knowing weather or not aniken was a good pilot when they first met or being amazed by his ultimate jediness, or even Jar Jar (though I don't like him).

My biggest gripe with the prequils is that Padime dies way too soon for Leia to be able to claim she remembers her. They could have had her live all the way through ROTS and left it with Vader thinking she is dead, and have Leia's explination toward the middle of Jedi that she remembers her mother but she died when she was young be enough. The only thing you would have lost would have been her _LAME_ acting when she dies, and the short funeral sequence. I truly could have lived with that.

I know she dies for dramatic effect, and I personaly don't care as far as padime dieing for sentemental reasons since I don't particularly like her. But it's the one big error in the prequils that erks me every time, and I have yet to see anyone come up with a plausible explination for why Leia would say that in Return of the Jedi, given how episode 3 ends.

I asume you could say she is refering to her adopted mother, but the way Luke asks her if she remembers her "real mother' indicates that the two of them have at some point in the past discussed the fact that they are both addopted.

Aside for that, the rest of the series matches up, even if you do have to stretch some of it a bit. At least in my mind.

Like I said earlier though, at the end of the day, they are all just movies that are supposed to be fun to watch. They probably were never ment to stand up to the scruteny that us ultimate geeks put it up to.

Oh . . . I'm STILL off topic. this is the thread on clone trooper faces on stormtroopers, right?

No one from what I have read mentioned that the new 30th anaversary storm troopers with removable helmets also have that mug. I got two of those guys. I love em to death personaly. I have them assighned to gaurd the ramp to my imperial shuttle for Darth Vader.

Their helmets never come off while on display. Only when I pick em up to show the verry few people who show an interest in my collection do they do that. Well, that, and when they get together with some of there clone trooper budds on the shelf below for a blet canister of beer while on break.

It's just not an issue for me. I think at this point half the reason I am still following this thread is because it's like a horrible horrible car wreck compleat with boddies thrown all over the place. Ya just can't look away!

stillakid
12-03-2007, 06:35 PM
It's just not an issue for me. I think at this point half the reason I am still following this thread is because it's like a horrible horrible car wreck compleat with boddies thrown all over the place. Ya just can't look away!

I like to be provocative. :whip:

Topics like this get some people all up in a dander and it's amusing to watch them come out of the woodwork. :pleased:

bigbarada
12-03-2007, 06:37 PM
My biggest gripe with the prequils is that Padime dies way too soon for Leia to be able to claim she remembers her. They could have had her live all the way through ROTS and left it with Vader thinking she is dead, and have Leia's explination toward the middle of Jedi that she remembers her mother but she died when she was young be enough. The only thing you would have lost would have been her _LAME_ acting when she dies, and the short funeral sequence. I truly could have lived with that.

I know she dies for dramatic effect, and I personaly don't care as far as padime dieing for sentemental reasons since I don't particularly like her. But it's the one big error in the prequils that erks me every time, and I have yet to see anyone come up with a plausible explination for why Leia would say that in Return of the Jedi, given how episode 3 ends.


It would have been yet another layer of the tragedy that is Darth Vader's story if we knew that Palpatine outright lied to Vader about her death (and how did Palpatine know for that matter?).

I agree that Leia's ROTJ dialogue would have been enough to resolve Padme's story if she had survived Ep3.

It's definitely more resolution than we got for Yoda and Chewie being buddies. How pointless was that?

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 07:08 PM
They never called them Clonetroopers in the movies, just as they never called anybody Sandtroopers or Snowtroopers.

That's a Hasbro thing.

Wrong. That's an LFL thing. Before Kenner released Star Wars toys the name "Stormtrooper" was plastered all over publicity shots, and was printed in the novelization that came out in 1976 one year BEFORE the movie was released. They also coined the name of the other troopers seen in the film. When Kenner first released the "Snowtrooper" for ESB they originally printed the card as "Imperial Snow Stormtrooper" and later changed the card to say "Snowtrooper."

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-03-2007, 07:08 PM
Or was it just a fun thing to do with no ulterior motives?
I'm gonna go with that. :)



My biggest gripe with the prequils is that Padime dies way too soon for Leia to be able to claim she remembers her. They could have had her live all the way through ROTS and left it with Vader thinking she is dead, and have Leia's explination toward the middle of Jedi that she remembers her mother but she died when she was young be enough. The only thing you would have lost would have been her _LAME_ acting when she dies, and the short funeral sequence. I truly could have lived with that.
The way I see it is that Leia's abilities in the Force (or just as a woman, with the "intuition" that apparently comes with it) allowed her to be more "in touch" with her family and the people around her . . . which is why she knew that Luke was her brother (or at least claimed to) and Luke had no idea, and she remembered their mother and Luke didn't. Or maybe Lucas forgot about that part. Who can tell for sure?

The "Man in Black" is Commander Praji (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Praji), who, according to his bio, didn't lead the stormtroopers at all. :p Apparently, according to this, they were led by Captain Kosh, who appears to have remained in his normal uniform while on Tatooine. It also says that Praji's family donated genetic material for the creation of more stormtroopers.

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 07:10 PM
The "Man in Black" is Commander Praji (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Praji), who, according to his bio, didn't lead the stormtroopers at all. :p Apparently, according to this, they were led by Captain Kosh, who appears to have remained in his normal uniform while on Tatooine. It also says that Praji's family donated genetic material for the creation of more stormtroopers.

So who in the hell is the guy we see talking to Vader who says "Holding her is dangerous...?"

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 07:23 PM
The Endor AT-AT had a Biker Scout included with a Jango head underneath? Can't say that I noticed, plus it has been a LONG time since I bought that... in fact, now that I think about it, I'm not even sure I opened that box up at all before putting into storage with everything else.

Yes it did, the visor flips up and reveals it, I will try and find a pic of it.


What's a "Tin Biker Scout"?

The ROTJ Tin that came out end of last year.


And as far as reading the threads about these things... well, I didn't I guess. I've been a little busy for the past year and don't always have the chance to scour threads for info like that.

I thought you might have been in the Czech Republic, wasnt sure





True, but Anakin's "success" was a complete accident from start to finish and doesn't count even if Obi Wan didn't get the true story.

As accidental as it was, all people saw was him fly in and him fly out with the Trade Federation ship exploding, they dont know what happened there. Purple Monkey Dishwasher.



Again, Obi Wan didn't witness it. The argument here is that in the ROTJ Spirit Ben dialogue, Spirit Ben's monologue connects dots that intend to lead the audience down a road of "cause" and "effect." So, "your father was already a great pilot" means that Obi Wan knew somehow (presumably from witnessing it) that Anakin was a great pilot... that discovery/knowledge by Obi Wan leads Obi Wan to observe that "but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." Realization that Anakin was a great pilot led Obi Wan to believe that the Force was with him.

Hearsay, he had nothing to prove he was or wasnt, so go with the flow(of the midis)




Says who? Vader commanded the guy to go take care of it personally. We only see armored troops on the surface and we have every reason to assume that he is one of them because he is ordered to see to it personally.

ased on the fact that he is out of armor and we never ever see another officer get into the armor, I will assume he didnt and went to supervise. This is a thing tat we can discuss until we die and will never know the truth

Neuroleptic
12-03-2007, 07:24 PM
So who in the hell is the guy we see talking to Vader who says "Holding her is dangerous...?"

The only sorce for 'Mr. Dangerious for a name that I can find is my collection of decipher cards for the customizable card game. I KNEW THIS BINDER WOULD COME IN HANDY SOME DAY!

He is the guy they use for the card named Imperial Commander. The lore text reads:

Typical Imperial leader. Uses constant training and cross simulations to help maintain high performance levels. Commander Daine Jr. is known to be bold and outspoken.

He is from the A New Hope expansion if anyone else wants to look him up to double check my source.

So, Mr. Danger is called Commander Daine Jr.

Any more questions? ^_^

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-03-2007, 07:25 PM
So who in the hell is the guy we see talking to Vader who says "Holding her is dangerous...?"
It's Daine Jir (not Daine Jr.), which is a pretty ridiculous name if you ask me. According to HIS Wookieepedia page, he was a stormtrooper commander (though if this means he was a stormtrooper and a commander or just a commander of stormtroopers, I do not know).

Neuroleptic
12-03-2007, 07:33 PM
It's Daine Jir (not Daine Jr.), which is a pretty ridiculous name if you ask me. According to HIS Wookieepedia page, he was a stormtrooper commander (though if this means he was a stormtrooper and a commander or just a commander of stormtroopers, I do not know).


Eh, I'm 75% blind without my glasses, and they only correct my vission to 50%. ^_^ Thus, those cards are hard to read for me!

Even if he is a commander that actualy puts on stormtrooper armor, that STILL dosn't prove or dissprove that all stormtroopers are not clones, are clones, or are a mix of both naturaly bread and cloned troops. Thus, the debate continues!

I chalk the function up to play value. Besides, for us who army biuld (I am biulding a small army of sand and storm troopers to put with my At-At and Imperial shuttle) it makes since to have the head underneath be clone heads. I mean, if you buy more than one, don't you want a good reason why the guy underneath always looks the same?

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 07:38 PM
It's Daine Jir (not Daine Jr.), which is a pretty ridiculous name if you ask me. According to HIS Wookieepedia page, he was a stormtrooper commander (though if this means he was a stormtrooper and a commander or just a commander of stormtroopers, I do not know).

Daine Jir?!?!?! (try saying that with a Christopher Walken accent)

Hmm. They couldn't come up with something better than that? Well, I always wondered who the wordsmith was at Lucasfilm who comes up with these ridiculous names for background characters that are barely seen like Praji and Nik Sant and background aliens like Ponda Babba who used to be called Walrus Man or Momaw Nadon who was simply called Hammerhead and such because Lucas Licensing always trademark the names.

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 07:39 PM
Stilla, here is a link to the post with the pictures of the pop up visor on the AT-AT

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showpost.php?p=481170&postcount=72

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 07:41 PM
EBesides, for us who army biuld (I am biulding a small army of sand and storm troopers to put with my At-At and Imperial shuttle) it makes since to have the head underneath be clone heads. I mean, if you buy more than one, don't you want a good reason why the guy underneath always looks the same?

When I was a kid I thought the Stormtroopers were androids and when Han and Luke steal their armor they had to quickly gut the circuitry inside. Ah, the imagination of a child.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-03-2007, 07:46 PM
Daine Jir?!?!?! (try saying that with a Christopher Walken accent)

Hmm. They couldn't come up with something better than that? Well, I always wondered who the wordsmith was at Lucasfilm who comes up with these ridiculous names for background characters that are barely seen like Praji and Nik Sant and background aliens like Ponda Babba who used to be called Walrus Man or Momaw Nadon who was simply called Hammerhead and such because Lucas Licensing always trademark the names.
At least it's not a respelling of the actor's name, which seems to be happening more and more lately. :dead:

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 08:11 PM
When I was a kid I thought the Stormtroopers were androids and when Han and Luke steal their armor they had to quickly gut the circuitry inside. Ah, the imagination of a child.

What I thought when I was a kid was the following.


The people go to the academy(much like police or firefighters) and learn the ways of the imperials. They start off as stormtroopers or pilots and then work there way up to officers and get out of the armor.

2-1B
12-03-2007, 08:49 PM
I don't have anything to do with them ('cept Aayla Secuar cuz she's hot and I would not turn down that twilek for sack time)

Me neither, I wouldn't turn her down. :love:

Look at that, a prequel liker and disliker finding common ground over their appreciation for a prequel element. And Kristanna Loken. :grin:


Good question: why wasn't he wearing his dress whites on the Tantive IV?

But first, let's re-examine the evidence that exists. Vader tells that officer in black to go to Tatooine to see to it personally.

Point 1: We should assume that the man in black does just that and does not just armchair quarterback the mission from some air-conditioned suite at the Mos Eisley Hilton.

Point 2: we see plenty of white armored Troopers on the sand and one of them holds up an O-ring and says "Look sir, droids." We can assume that the soldier playing show & tell is talking to a superior who is also in white armor.

Point 3: We see no Imperial officers in black on Tatooine.

Point 4: Point 1 + Point 2 + Point 3 = Man in Black on Tantive IV is one of the white armored Troopers on Tatooine.

So through basic logic and some advanced math, we can conclude that Man in Black = one of the armored Troopers on Tatooine.


Hmmmm...I just think your math there is too literal. In my job, I deal with projects all over the country and when my boss tells me to see to something personally, I don't literally go to state X to work on an install myself, ya know?

There are all those stormtroopers on the Death Star. WHY are there dudes in black and gray as well? Why have some guys in stormie gear all the time and then some guys in dress gear who change to look EXACTLY THE SAME as all the other stormies?


It all depends on what premise you are starting with. What exactly does "see to it personally" mean? The line before that was "send a detachment down to retrieve them." If he was seeing to it personally, wouldn't he be accompanying or taking the detachment rather than sending them.

stillakid, this is why I agree with MSP. If we want to get literal like your math above :D then Vader would have said "take" a detachment, not "send" a detachment. lol


Wrong. That's an LFL thing. Before Kenner released Star Wars toys the name "Stormtrooper" was plastered all over publicity shots, and was printed in the novelization that came out in 1976 one year BEFORE the movie was released. They also coined the name of the other troopers seen in the film. When Kenner first released the "Snowtrooper" for ESB they originally printed the card as "Imperial Snow Stormtrooper" and later changed the card to say "Snowtrooper."

I'm not saying this 100%, but I'm 98% certain that is inaccurate. I was pretty enveloped in the vintage toys as a kid and I swear that Kenner called them "Imperial Stormtrooper (Hoth Battle Gear)" I never heard the term "snowtrooper" or "sandtrooper" until 1996 or whenever they started cranking out those new toys of these characters.

If you can prove me wrong, I will send Deoxy $30 cash to take her girlfriend and/or Aayla Secura out for dinner ;) but I think you're incorrect.

:)

Mad Slanted Powers
12-03-2007, 08:53 PM
What if I argue that some of the Stormtroopers are robots? There is no way to prove me wrong. We haven't seen all of the Stormtroopers with their armor/helmets off. Maybe that is why they seem to fall over dead when hit with a blaster even though Leia was just fine when she got shot with a blaster without armor. Maybe they just short out.There is nothing really to suggest that they are robots, but nothing in the OT to say they aren't. However, the PT shows clones in stormtrooper-like armor, so that is a better bet than robots.


I was surprised to find a Prequel Jango Fett head living underneath my OT Snowtrooper removable helmet in the Hoth Battlepack. I want to know how a Prequel abomination found its way into the OT universe.The same way any other thing from the prequels can be in the OT.



Again, Obi Wan didn't witness it. The argument here is that in the ROTJ Spirit Ben dialogue, Spirit Ben's monologue connects dots that intend to lead the audience down a road of "cause" and "effect." So, "your father was already a great pilot" means that Obi Wan knew somehow (presumably from witnessing it) that Anakin was a great pilot... that discovery/knowledge by Obi Wan leads Obi Wan to observe that "but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." Realization that Anakin was a great pilot led Obi Wan to believe that the Force was with him.You say that Obi-Wan somehow knew, presumably from witnessing it. Maybe you presumed wrong. There is nothing in Ben's dialogue that said he witnessed this piloting, that he discovered him when he was piloting, or that he was the one that discovered him. I'll agree that given the lack of any other evidence, it kind of suggests that something like that happened. I once imagined something like that. However, the prequels show that it didn't happen that way without contradicting what was actually said, except maybe the part about taking it upon himself to train Anakin. But looking at it from Obi-Wan's perspective, he has a lot of guilt and regret that he is carrying. He's probably looking back and thinking that he shouldn't have insisted on training Anakin. That could have influenced his view of things, and is putting the blame on himself rather than Qui-Gon or the council.

Bosskman
12-03-2007, 08:56 PM
Man, I had forgotten why I usually only post in the Canadian just found thread. Thanks for reminding me about the heated debates. Not to stir the pot but threads like this get me fired up - especially that purple monkey dishwasher comment. I am outta here..........

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 09:00 PM
I'm not saying this 100%, but I'm 98% certain that is inaccurate. I was pretty enveloped in the vintage toys as a kid and I swear that Kenner called them "Imperial Stormtrooper (Hoth Battle Gear)" I never heard the term "snowtrooper" or "sandtrooper" until 1996 or whenever they started cranking out those new toys of these characters.

If you can prove me wrong, I will send Deoxy $30 cash to take her girlfriend and/or Aayla Secura out for dinner ;) but I think you're incorrect.

:)

If you look at the link in my post you will see an ebay auction for the Vintage Stormtrooper in Hoth Battle Gear on the Card.

2-1B
12-03-2007, 09:16 PM
Thanks, that's not something they ever changed though, is it? (unlike Sandpeople / Tusken Raider, Death Squad Guy / Commander, etc)

I don't think it is.


Man, I had forgotten why I usually only post in the Canadian just found thread. Thanks for reminding me about the heated debates. Not to stir the pot but threads like this get me fired up - especially that purple monkey dishwasher comment. I am outta here..........

That's cuz Canadians are more civil and friendly than we American wanks. lol

Droid
12-03-2007, 09:38 PM
The "Man in Black" is Commander Praji, who, according to his bio, didn't lead the stormtroopers at all. :p Apparently, according to this, they were led by Captain Kosh, who appears to have remained in his normal uniform while on Tatooine. It also says that Praji's family donated genetic material for the creation of more stormtroopers.

So accordign to the EU, Praji didn't lead the stormtroopers on Tatooine, but one of the Stormtroopers on Tatooine might have been his clone? :rolleyes:


When I was a kid I thought the Stormtroopers were androids and when Han and Luke steal their armor they had to quickly gut the circuitry inside. Ah, the imagination of a child.

You can't prove that isn't exactly what happened. Until someone can convince me otherwise, all of the Stormtroopers were robots.


stillakid, this is why I agree with MSP. If we want to get literal like your math above :D then Vader would have said "take" a detachment, not "send" a detachment.

There is no reason Darth Vader would tell him to personally see that a detachment is sent down. That seems like something that could be delegated. The clear import of Vader's words is that the fellow is supposed to personally go down to the planet with the detachment.

I agree that the lines about Leia remembering her mother are one of the biggest problems with the prequels.

One of my biggest beefs is when Vader tells Luke in Jedi that Obi-wan once thought there was still good in Anakin and that the Emperor hadn't driven it from him fully. Obi-wan NEVER tries to redeem Anakin on Mustafar. He jousts with him verbally and then HE is the first to light his sword. I think we were all led to believe that Obi-wan would try HARD to get Anakin to turn back from the Dark Side and in the end have no choice but to fight him. Just as Qui-Gon usurped anything meaningful Obi-wan was to have done, Padme is the one that still believes in the good in Anakin. At this point, Lucas may as well change Vader's line to "Your mother once thought as you do". (Though I would hate any more changes to the OT in order to compensate for shotty continuity with the PT.)

Even Obi-wan's speech on Dagaboh in Jedi implies that Anakin may have once been redeemable. Luke says there is still good in Anakin and Obi-wan says, "he's more machine now than man, twisted and evil", suggesting that maybe I had a chance to turn him back before he got so severely injured, but not now.

There really is some 1984 Orwellian stuff going on with the fact that we have known the OT for 30 years, then Lucas changes them to match the more recent stories and we are supposed to believe it had always been that way.

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 10:24 PM
One of my biggest beefs is when Vader tells Luke in Jedi that Obi-wan once thought there was still good in Anakin and that the Emperor hadn't driven it from him fully. Obi-wan NEVER tries to redeem Anakin on Mustafar. He jousts with him verbally and then HE is the first to light his sword. I think we were all led to believe that Obi-wan would try HARD to get Anakin to turn back from the Dark Side and in the end have no choice but to fight him. Just as Qui-Gon usurped anything meaningful Obi-wan was to have done, Padme is the one that still believes in the good in Anakin. At this point, Lucas may as well change Vader's line to "Your mother once thought as you do". (Though I would hate any more changes to the OT in order to compensate for shotty continuity with the PT.)

Even Obi-wan's speech on Dagaboh in Jedi implies that Anakin may have once been redeemable. Luke says there is still good in Anakin and Obi-wan says, "he's more machine now than man, twisted and evil", suggesting that maybe I had a chance to turn him back before he got so severely injured, but not now.




Obi-Wan knew it was a moot point to persuade him when he said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes". That was wen he knew he had no chance basically. He tried to persuade him. Of course they will verbally joust, they were trying to prove each others points. Once he got to the dead end of an absolute, he knew what was coming and defended himself.

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 10:27 PM
I'm not saying this 100%, but I'm 98% certain that is inaccurate. I was pretty enveloped in the vintage toys as a kid and I swear that Kenner called them "Imperial Stormtrooper (Hoth Battle Gear)" I never heard the term "snowtrooper" or "sandtrooper" until 1996 or whenever they started cranking out those new toys of these characters.

If you can prove me wrong, I will send Deoxy $30 cash to take her girlfriend and/or Aayla Secura out for dinner ;) but I think you're incorrect.

:)

The so-called Snowtrooper was never referred to as such in the vintage Kenner line but did have two different card variations printed: "Imperial Stormtrooper (Hoth Battle Gear)" and was also printed as "Imperial Snow Stormtrooper." I'm not sure which is more rare of the two but I distinctly remember this and there was something mentioned about this card variation on the Star Wars Collector Archive.

Kidhuman
12-03-2007, 10:29 PM
It is possible they renamed the card when ROTJ came out.

2-1B
12-03-2007, 10:43 PM
That's interesting, I never heard of that. I'll snoop around and see if I can find anything.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-03-2007, 10:59 PM
The Action Figure Archive says Imperial Stormtrooper (Hoth Battle Gear). It shows that on both an ESB and ROTJ card. I found a picture of the Tri-Logo card on Brian's Toys and it shows the same name.

decadentdave
12-03-2007, 11:08 PM
The only visual reference I could find so far is this photo of the decal sheet for the vintage Darth Vader collector case that has "Imperial Snow Stormtrooper" printed on it:

http://swfigures.com/swf/Enlarged/00281.htm

Notice also some other interesting name changes i.e. Star Destroyer Commander, Bespin Security Force, Rebel Snow Soldier.

2-1B
12-04-2007, 12:05 AM
Good find DD, I never noticed that before!

Droid
12-04-2007, 11:17 AM
Obi-Wan knew it was a moot point to persuade him when he said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes". That was when he knew he had no chance basically. He tried to persuade him. Of course they will verbally joust, they were trying to prove each others points. Once he got to the dead end of an absolute, he knew what was coming and defended himself.

Really? He knew he had no chance to bring back Anakin at that point? Padme believed in the good in him. Luke felt the good in him. The original trilogy told us that Obi-wan was supposed to believe there was still good in Anakin and that the Emperor hadn't driven it from him fully and that Obi-wan was going to try to bring him back. When did that happen?

The verbal jousting was not Obi-wan trying to persuad Anakin of anything. It was, "you're a jerk." "No, you're a jerk." "No, I'm pretty sure YOU'RE the jerk." Obi-wan never tried to change Anakin's mind about anything.

Here is what was said before Obi-wan lit his sword:

OBI-WAN: Let her go, Anakin. (no attept to turn him back there)
ANAKIN: What have you and she been up to?
OBI-WAN: Let her go! (no attempt here either)
ANAKIN releases his grip on the unconscious PADME and she crumples to the ground.
ANAKIN: You turned her against me.
OBI-WAN: You have done that yourself. (That is an accusation, not a plea to turn his back on his evil ways.)
ANAKIN: You will not take her from me.
ANAKIN throws off his cloak.
OBI-WAN: Your anger and your lust for power have already done that. (A taunt as to what Anakin has turned into, not a statement of the good in him or a plea to turn his back on what he has become.)
OBI-WAN flings off his cloak.
OBI-WAN: (continuing) You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now . . . until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy. (Once again, a statement that Anakin is now evil. Not, "you're better than this." Not "Anakin come with me.")
They circle each other until OBI-WAN is near PADME. He places his hand on her.
ANAKIN: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.
OBI-WAN: Your new Empire? (A question. Disbelief over what Anakin thinks.)
ANAKIN: Don't make me kill you.
OBI-WAN: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic ... to democracy. (A statement about Obi-wan, not about Anakin or his belief in the good still in Anakin.)
ANAKIN: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.
OBI-WAN: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must. (Once again, a statement as to what he believes Anakin to be, NOT a belief there is good in Anakin or a plea that Anakin turn away from the Dark Side.)
(ignites his lightsaber)
ANAKIN: You will try.

Much has been made in another thread about whether Luke was right to choken the Gamorreans in ROTJ because a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, but never attack. Obi-wan was clearly the aggressor here. He lit his sword. He could have continued to talk to Anakin. It is fine if everyone says that he had no choice and saw Anakin for what he was, but the ORIGINAL TRILOGY said that Obi-wan once thought there was good in Anakin and tried to get him to turn back from the Dark Side. That NEVER happened in ROTS. If anything, it was Padme that did that on the landing platform. Obi-wan once again not getting to do what we were told he would do because a character not referenced in the original trilogy did it for him.

Deoxyribonucleic
12-04-2007, 12:37 PM
Me neither, I wouldn't turn her down. :love:

Perhaps a rendezvous? Entre vous et moi et la joli fille ;) :love:


Look at that, a prequel liker and disliker finding common ground over their appreciation for a prequel element. And Kristanna Loken. :grin:


Plus de les joli fille!! :thumbsup:




purple monkey dishwasher

Boy howdy, now you've done it! Get a rope! :o

2-1B
12-04-2007, 06:58 PM
Droid, I think Obi-Wan was taking a hard line of reason, he tried convincing Anakin of what he had become...Vader stood defiant so Ben then knew he was too far gone.


Perhaps a rendezvous? Entre vous et moi et la joli fille ;) :love:

Plus de les joli fille!! :thumbsup:


Thank god for the Babel Fish translator !!! :grin:

Kidhuman
12-04-2007, 07:37 PM
Droid, I think Obi-Wan was taking a hard line of reason, he tried convincing Anakin of what he had become...Vader stood defiant so Ben then knew he was too far gone.


I was thinking the same thing, he wanted him to see what he had become, choking the woman he loved, turning on his brother at arms. If you read the script you will see Obi-Wan had no choice but to defend himself. Anakin disrobed first and then he threatened to kill him. Hell, I would have ignited my saber first also.

Sinscia Fat'o
12-04-2007, 07:42 PM
Obi did what he had to do at that point in the film, there was no hate or anger in him, maybe sorrow or pain that Anakin was causeing him, padme and anakin himself, but Obi had to react with something at this point because Anakin was pacing back and fourth, and he was gettin a lil itchy, so Obi had to give his buddy a scratch...that scratch just took off all his limbs, but he had to do what he had to do.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-04-2007, 08:17 PM
Indeed, I think those statements by Obi-Wan are trying to show Anakin what he had become. In Anakin's mind, he is doing the right thing, so Obi-Wan saying he is doing evil is sort of an appeal to the good side of Anakin to see what he is doing. Anakin feels he is defending the Republic by sticking by Palpatine and attacking the Jedi, so Obi-Wan's plea that he is committed to the Republic and democracy could be seen as saying, "we're on the same side."

Neuroleptic
12-04-2007, 08:42 PM
Indeed, I think those statements by Obi-Wan are trying to show Anakin what he had become. In Anakin's mind, he is doing the right thing, so Obi-Wan saying he is doing evil is sort of an appeal to the good side of Anakin to see what he is doing. Anakin feels he is defending the Republic by sticking by Palpatine and attacking the Jedi, so Obi-Wan's plea that he is committed to the Republic and democracy could be seen as saying, "we're on the same side."


I felt part of it was that our dear friend lill orphan Annie felt that he realy was doing what was best for the republic (based off of what he says to Padime in AOTC about someone makeing people do what is right even if it involves a dictatorship), and also because he truly thinks the darkside is the only way to save Padime from kicking the bucket wich she dose anyway. Though I think she could have died off screen entierly after the end of Ep3 and before Ep4.

decadentdave
12-04-2007, 09:24 PM
Now that we know that Daine Jir is the guy who says "Holding her is dangerous," and we know that the second Imperial officer is Commander Praji, could someone tell me who the Rebel technician is on Yavin IV who says "Enemy fighters coming your way," ? The script simply designates him as CONTROL OFFICER. This dude MUST have a name before LFL can pimp his figure!

NEVERMIND IT'S DEL GOREN (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Del_Goren)

Droid
12-04-2007, 09:43 PM
You are all defending what Obi-wan did on Mustafar. That is not the point. I'm not saying Obi-wan is a bad guy. I'm saying that he did not do what the original trilogy said that he did.

The point is that in Return of the Jedi, Vader tells Luke that Obi-wan once thought that there was still good in Anakin once he had become Darth Vader and Obi-wan tried to bring Anakin back to the good side. That never happened in Revenge of the Sith.

I really defended the Phantom Menace, though I now think it is the worst of the Saga. I sat in the theater watching Attack of the Clones and thought, "this is really awful." So many scenes literally had me cringing. Revenge of the Sith would have had to be something it never could have been - beyond perfect, to somehow redeem the two films that came before it. In many ways, though I think it is the best of the prequels, it was the biggest let down. Because after watching it I realized the two trilogies just don't match up.

Neuroleptic
12-05-2007, 12:11 AM
Maybe it's because I'm being contrary, but I always took it not to mean that Obiwan ever thought there was good in vader. Obiwan himself even says that vader is more machean now than human when luke says he wants to turn him back.

I always took it to mean that Obiwan dosn't know the power of the dark side.

JediTricks
12-05-2007, 01:31 AM
Interesting read, but I have trouble believing Lucas when he says that Luke and Leia were meant to be twins all along. ANH and ESB are the best evidence that Lucas is lying.Well, he does have some "full of crap" moments like when he says the story is about Leia, no wait, Luke, no wait, Vader, no wait, the Droids, no wait, Obi-Wan, no wait, the Emperor's Barber...

The original draft of SW has 2 brothers and a lost father, but not evil-daddy and the princess in the story isn't related to them. It's all a rich tapestry of contortions. :p


But it's good to hear him admit that the prequel "story" was nothing more than a few notes on paper connecting a few dots here and there. I seriously doubt he envisioned Battle Droids, Jango Clones, and teenage Queens back in 1973 when he was writing the first draft for Star Wars.Yeah, it felt a little cathartic to hear him say it directly, to essentially spell out why the prequels feel different and why his claims that they're really in there fall so flat.



Picard!:mad:That bald-headed fart?!? He couldn't even take a dump without conferring with half the bridge crew! ;) (I actually think Picard is pretty badass, see ST:First Contact for why, but Kirk is better).




:eek: Yikes! Kind of makes you wonder about all the guys who claim that Twilek women are "sexy." :pOh man, that's awesome, you took it 1 step further and it was dead on target.



It's Daine Jir (not Daine Jr.), which is a pretty ridiculous name if you ask me. It's a horrible pun. "Dane-jer" danger. Jeez that one sucks. Lemme guess, it came from Decipher, right? The paper gaming industry (roleplay and CCG) has done serious, lasting damage to SW backgrounds - you think a Jango head under your stormtrooper is bad? Look at all the crap that people still recite from the CCG cards - "Darth Vader had white armor on Bespin!"




turning on his brother at arms. ... Anakin disrobed first and then he threatened to kill him. Heh heh, that reads totally different taken out of context, no?

Mad Slanted Powers
12-05-2007, 01:45 AM
You are all defending what Obi-wan did on Mustafar. That is not the point. I'm not saying Obi-wan is a bad guy. I'm saying that he did not do what the original trilogy said that he did.

The point is that in Return of the Jedi, Vader tells Luke that Obi-wan once thought that there was still good in Anakin once he had become Darth Vader and Obi-wan tried to bring Anakin back to the good side. That never happened in Revenge of the Sith.

I really defended the Phantom Menace, though I now think it is the worst of the Saga. I sat in the theater watching Attack of the Clones and thought, "this is really awful." So many scenes literally had me cringing. Revenge of the Sith would have had to be something it never could have been - beyond perfect, to somehow redeem the two films that came before it. In many ways, though I think it is the best of the prequels, it was the biggest let down. Because after watching it I realized the two trilogies just don't match up.I sort of feel that way about ROTS as well. In some ways it is the best, but also the one that failed to make all the connections neatly. I was disappointed that they didn't bring Owen and family into it. Initially, I though Anakin's turning kind of came out of nowhere, but in retrospect, it makes sense when you consider the preceding scene and all that had led up to it. I don't blame TPM for this, so I still really like that one. I think the others would have worked better if perhaps Anakin had left or been forced out of the Jedi Order. Then Obi-Wan could have come back to get him to join him on an "idealistic crusade."


As far as Obi-Wan once thinking as Luke does, I don't have a problem with that line. Before he arrives, Padmé tells Anakin that Obi-Wan wants to help them. Just because Obi-Wan does not come right out and ask Anakin to join him doesn't mean he doesn't think the same way that Luke does. Obi-Wan's words may seem accusatory, but to me they come across as an attempt to sway Anakin. The line about becoming the thing he has sworn to destroy sounds like an attempt to convince Anakin what he is doing is wrong. The way he says, "Your new empire? My allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy", also sounds like he is trying to convince Anakin he is on the wrong side of this, or that they are actually on the same side.

Obi-Wan doesn't want to fight him. Even near the end when he has the high ground, he tries to convince Anakin not to attempt what he is about to do. Prior to that when they are floating on the lava, they have some more dialogue. Obi-Wan says Palpatine is evil, Anakin says the Jedi are evil. At that point, Obi-Wan says, "then you are lost." That would seem to indicate that before that line, he wasn't sure. From Anakin's perspective, all of Obi-Wan's dialogue during these scenes could be construed as an attempt to turn him away from the dark side.

So, I don't see the situations as all that different. In both cases, Vader/Anakin has someone trying to convince him that he is wrong to align himself with the Emperor. Obi-Wan's tactic was just a bit different than Luke's. But his relationship with Anakin was different, as they were in some ways rivals, at least in Anakin's mind. Luke was also handcuffed and a prisoner, so not in the position to use more aggressive negotiations. Instead, he was appealing to that part of his father that had made a similar appeal to him on Bespin.

Desfiy
12-05-2007, 02:07 AM
I say the only one out of the three Prequel Movies that were any good, was the ROTS, the other two sucked big style, however saying that ROTS and the rest of the OT Movies dont gel hopefully we will see this rectified in some way in the Live Action TV Series.

decadentdave
12-05-2007, 02:09 AM
I have about as much enthusiasm to watch the TV series as I do an episode of Felicity or Gilmore Girls.

bigbarada
12-05-2007, 02:19 AM
however saying that ROTS and the rest of the OT Movies dont gel hopefully we will see this rectified in some way in the Live Action TV Series.

People said the exact same thing about Ep3 right after Ep2 was released. The TV show is just going to be more of Lucas playing with his digital toys with little concern for continuity or tying up loose ends.

decadentdave
12-05-2007, 02:28 AM
With McCallum producing, the TV show will be the Young Cindy Chronicles on Tatooine.

JediTricks
12-05-2007, 02:32 AM
With McCallum producing, the TV show will be the Young Cindy Chronicles on Tatooine.
Oh man, I found the Young Indy series to be downright painful, so I hope you're wrong.

Kidhuman
12-05-2007, 06:05 AM
The point is that in Return of the Jedi, Vader tells Luke that Obi-wan once thought that there was still good in Anakin once he had become Darth Vader and Obi-wan tried to bring Anakin back to the good side. That never happened in Revenge of the Sith.



If you go by good old Bens logic of "from a certain POV" it makes perfect sense.

Droid
12-05-2007, 10:34 AM
If you go by good old Bens logic of "from a certain POV" it makes perfect sense.

Ya, I've heard that is a way to justify every single continuity error between the trilogies. Couldn't it just be that they were written terribly but people want to like them so much that they scramble to justify it in a way Lucas would never have been clever enough to come up with? And doesn't the sheer number of things you have to explain bother anyone?

Droid
12-05-2007, 10:36 AM
I say the only one out of the three Prequel Movies that were any good, was the ROTS, the other two sucked big style, however saying that ROTS and the rest of the OT Movies dont gel hopefully we will see this rectified in some way in the Live Action TV Series.

How exactly is the TV show going to make it that NOW Yoda was Obi-wan's teacher, Obi-wan took it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi, Obi-wan had much anger in him, Obi-wan was reckless, Leia has a reason to remember Padme, Obi-wan made a hard push to redeem Anakin once he became Darth Vader, or that Owen and Anakin ever had a relationship? The chance to fix any of those problems with the prequels has passed.

Droid
12-05-2007, 10:38 AM
Oh man, I found the Young Indy series to be downright painful, so I hope you're wrong.

It was like they spun Indy meeting Hitler in Last Crusade into a whole show. Hey, what if Indy met EVERYONE in history?

And it was a bit too educational for my tastes. As a kid I could pick up on the fact that they were trying to teach me and that thery were saying, "Learning can be FUN!"

And I hated the old Indy stuff that I understand Lucas has eliminated because reality is whatever Lucas claims it is right now, not whatever people saw onscreen and likely still have on VHS tapes out there.

Dark Marble
12-05-2007, 11:19 AM
How exactly is the TV show going to make it that NOW Yoda was Obi-wan's teacher, Obi-wan took it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi, Obi-wan had much anger in him, Obi-wan was reckless, Leia has a reason to remember Padme, Obi-wan made a hard push to redeem Anakin once he became Darth Vader, or that Owen and Anakin ever had a relationship? The chance to fix any of those problems with the prequels has passed.

I think these are interesting points. But how many need to be directly dealt with? We don't know anything about what Obi Wan was like before Phantom Menace and if he trained with Yoda or not. Obi Wan did take it upon himself to train Anakin to honor Qui Gon. Why is it the assumption that Leia's memories are real? Why did Owen have to have a relationship with Anakin to fear what Anakin had become or that Luke could end up the same way?

The one that I see mostly having to be changed is Obi Wan's push to bring Anakin back to the good side. I think in another inevitable revision of ROTJ this could be dealt with by changing Vader's line from "Obi Wan once thought the way that you do" to "Your Mother thought the way that you do." It is the only line in the Original Trilogy that really puts Obi Wan on the hook.

Lucas left out and changed a lot but there are also things that fans assumed about the plot and things the new movies timeline just didn't cover at all. That said, I am not apologizing for the new movies but try to enjoy them on there on merits which usually means keeping them seperate from the OT and taking the overall canon and plot with a grain of salt.

Old Fossil
12-05-2007, 12:19 PM
This is ridiculous. People need to CUT LUCAS A BREAK when it comes to issues of continuity regarding the OT and the PT. This guy has been working on essentially the same storyline for going on FORTY YEARS, with said storyline's arc covering a period of, what, about thirty years, with dozens of characters and numerous sub-plots and sub-storylines. How could one writer NOT make a mistake? How could one writer remember everything characters have said and done in past drafts, when writing new ones? Main ideas may be maintained, but details tend to get a little fuzzy... what Ben said in Ep. 4, Chapter __, Scene __,... in a draft written thirty years prior, already read and reread numerous times since. Can you imagine? One might argue, "Well, if it's been reread so many times, why can't he remember it correctly? And, moreover, why can't he just reread the frickin' thing AGAIN to avoid making a mistake?" Easier said than done. George the writer likely remembers events in the story differently than your average fan who was there for the first film in 1977. Plus, who wants to read the same passage one wrote decades earlier, YET AGAIN? That is a human failing. Errors and inconsistencies happened in Tolkien, the Arthurian legends, and the Bible. It can easily happen to Lucas. We accept the problems with the former, since their authors are conveniently dead. Lucas is a living myth-maker, and so is an easy target.

Lucas doesn't owe anybody a damned thing. As an artist, he can write what he wants, and do what he wants to with it. It's HIS CREATION. We are free to judge it as we see fit, but to expect George the artist to conform to his audience's vision of his work is to expect too much. Further, to expect Lucas's or any writer's vision to be perfect, or simply without contradictions, is too much. The problems are when the errors and contradictions get in the way of the story, and that has not happened with Star Wars, however clumsily the story gets told. Clones, Threepio's silver leg, Anakin's piloting skills, and other bones of contention are all incidental to the main storyline -- the hero's fall and redemption -- which successfully progresses in a fairly straightforward manner over six films. Having a Jango Fett clone head beneath a snowtrooper's helmet doesn't change the story's successful telling one whit. The latter may be fun to debate, but to expand that into a damning critique of the whole indicates little more than the overzealous analysis of a myopic vision.

Droid
12-05-2007, 01:11 PM
Why is it the assumption that Leia's memories are real?

I think we would have assumed her memories were real. Any time the PT conflicts with the OT we should just let it pass as unreal memories?


Why did Owen have to have a relationship with Anakin to fear what Anakin had become or that Luke could end up the same way?

Because Owen was supposed to have "not taken with Anakin's ideals", "thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved", and thought Anakin had followed Obi-wan on a "damn, fool idealistic crusade." I know, I know Owen could have talked with Obi-wan all those years on Tatooine in between Episodes III and IV or talked to Shmi and decided that Anakin never should have gotten involed with the Jedi. But I don't think you can look at the prequels and say it is the story of Anakin following Obi-wan on an idealistic crusade that Owen didn't agree with. I think that ANH implies Anakin and Owen had a relationship beyond "Hi, I'm Owen."

Droid
12-05-2007, 01:17 PM
This is ridiculous. People need to CUT LUCAS A BREAK when it comes to issues of continuity regarding the OT and the PT. This guy has been working on essentially the same storyline for going on FORTY YEARS, with said storyline's arc covering a period of, what, about thirty years, with dozens of characters and numerous sub-plots and sub-storylines. How could one writer NOT make a mistake? How could one writer remember everything characters have said and done in past drafts, when writing new ones?

You're kidding right? How can we expect Lucas, with unlimited resources, to have typed up a list of those pieces of dialogue in the OT which should have dictated the prequel story and then followed those? How can we expect him, with FORTY YEARS of working on these stories to know them better than the casual fan who could have told you the story of the prequels before they came out?


Main ideas may be maintained, but details tend to get a little fuzzy... what Ben said in Ep. 4, Chapter __, Scene __,... in a draft written thirty years prior, already read and reread numerous times since. Can you imagine? One might argue, "Well, if it's been reread so many times, why can't he remember it correctly? And, moreover, why can't he just reread the frickin' thing AGAIN to avoid making a mistake?" Easier said than done. George the writer likely remembers events in the story differently than your average fan who was there for the first film in 1977. Plus, who wants to read the same passage one wrote decades earlier, YET AGAIN?

A New Hope, Empire, and Jedi are not a book Lucas read thirty years ago but were lost to him at the time he wrote the prequels. He could have put a staff person in charge of writing down the stuff from the OT which dictated the prequels if he was too lazy or busy to watch it himself.


Further, to expect Lucas's or any writer's vision to be perfect, or simply without contradictions, is too much. The problems are when the errors and contradictions get in the way of the story, and that has not happened with Star Wars, however clumsily the story gets told. Clones, Threepio's silver leg, Anakin's piloting skills, and other bones of contention are all incidental to the main storyline -- the hero's fall and redemption -- which successfully progresses in a fairly straightforward manner over six films. Having a Jango Fett clone head beneath a snowtrooper's helmet doesn't change the story's successful telling one whit. The latter may be fun to debate, but to expand that into a damning critique of the whole indicates little more than the overzealous analysis of a myopic vision.

The story we were told of in the OT was not shown in the prequels. This isn't one inconsistency. This is not minor flaws. This is the story NOT being the story we were promised unless Obi-wan lied or was mistaken about every detail or everything was from a point of view. And by the way, they did not successfully show the progress of what led Anakin to fall. Anakin's behavior never matches from one scene to the next and even now I am more than a bit unsure what led him to be so evil that he had to slaughter children. Oh ya, something about it saving Padme?

Dark Marble
12-05-2007, 01:42 PM
I see your point on the Owen Anakin relationship Droid. There are unanswered questions there which are more likely plot flubs on Lucas's part. But as far as Leia's memories go, who knows what she actually remembers or not.

Also, as a force user who knows what she remembers and what she has seen through the force. I saw Jedi on cable yesterday and I didn't think this was a point that needed explanation or clarification.

stillakid
12-05-2007, 02:31 PM
Obi-Wan doesn't want to fight him. Even near the end when he has the high ground, he tries to convince Anakin not to attempt what he is about to do. Prior to that when they are floating on the lava, they have some more dialogue. Obi-Wan says Palpatine is evil, Anakin says the Jedi are evil. At that point, Obi-Wan says, "then you are lost." That would seem to indicate that before that line, he wasn't sure. From Anakin's perspective, all of Obi-Wan's dialogue during these scenes could be construed as an attempt to turn him away from the dark side.



For various reasons, I'm not at liberty to name names, but I recently had the opportunity to discuss that final fight with some people very key to its creation.

Essentially the way the fight was designed by others who are not Lucas was to have it in thirds... the first third was to have Obi Wan defending himself through and through with no doubts as to what is going on. The second third was a turning point where Obi Wan realizes that Anakin is beyond hope so he goes on the attack. The final third is the ultimate confrontation wherein two really great swordsmen battle it out but the better man wins. It was suggested that the entire fight be shown from start to finish to preserve the "story" that is being told with it.

However, Lucas evidently isn't much of a collaborator on much of anything for whatever reasons he chooses. So, that idea was tossed out completely and we ended up with what's on screen. So little things like Obi Wan igniting first is akin to Greedo firing first. It seems small, but really has a large impact on his state of mind and how we perceive his beliefs and intentions. Had the story been told per Spirit Ben's story in ROTJ, Obi Wan would have been ENTIRELY on the defensive for a vast majority of that fight and would be trying to plead with Anakin's "good side" until it proved useless. That's not what happened at all. Just another example of how the Prequel's reimagined the established continuity to the detriment of the saga as a whole.

TheRealDubya
12-05-2007, 02:50 PM
This is ridiculous.

I agree Fossil. Sometimes a toy is just a toy. We should be thankful that we get to enjoy such a fertile imagination in the first place.

Prequel, OT...whatever. It's all Star Wars. It's a done deal. The Saga. In Lucasfilm and Hasbro's minds it is one, giant story (or property). The demarcation between the two trilogies was forever erased the moment Ewan McGregor handed that baby to the Lars family. I can't tell you how many times I have read or heard, in an interview, Mr. Lucas say something to the effect of, "It's one big 14 hour movie." Like Bail said, "And so it is."

So here's what I think: I think it rules that, if I want, I can go to a store right now and buy a Luke or a Stormtrooper or a Vader figure. Or a Clonetrooper. I think it's cool that I can pass on stuff I think is lame too, but that other collectors and kids think is awesome. I like that I have these options. I think it's awesome that kids have this rich, huge fantasy world to get lost in, just as I once did. Just because the new episodes didn't play like I had hoped they would doesn't mean I need to stop buying products influenced by the revelations of those films. A Stormtrooper might be a clone? Fine. I can also swap that head out and make him anyone else I want. Now I have my Lando Stormtrooper, from some story I made up as a kid. Gnarly.

Buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like. If you don't like what's under a helmet or what that might imply to your childhood assumptions, buy some glue.

TheRealDubya
12-05-2007, 02:53 PM
For various reasons, I'm not at liberty to name names, but I recently had the opportunity to discuss that final fight with some people very key to its creation.

I heard that Spielberg helped design the fight.

Droid
12-05-2007, 02:56 PM
I see your point on the Owen Anakin relationship Droid. There are unanswered questions there which are more likely plot flubs on Lucas's part.

Thanks for that. I think that the OT vs. prequel argument has gotten to the point where people won't admit anything to the other side. I try to admit when I am wrong or when someone makes a good point; for instance, when I said I thought the original trilogy implied that the Republic didn't use clones but fought an outside force who did use clones, I later admitted that was much more my assumption and that both sides could have used clones.

Droid
12-05-2007, 02:58 PM
Errors and inconsistencies happened in Tolkien, the Arthurian legends, and the Bible.

Lucas had to watch three movies to avoid inconsistencies, not read thousand of pages. Star Wars is nowhere near as detailed or complex as Tolkien or the Bible.

stillakid
12-05-2007, 03:03 PM
This is ridiculous. People need to CUT LUCAS A BREAK when it comes to issues of continuity regarding the OT and the PT...

First, thank you. That was very entertaining. :) Not a word of it makes a lick of sense, but entertaining nonetheless.

Geez do I want to go into any details? Maybe.

This is ridiculous. People need to CUT LUCAS A BREAK when it comes to issues of continuity regarding the OT and the PT. This guy has been working on essentially the same storyline for going on FORTY YEARS, with said storyline's arc covering a period of, what, about thirty years, with dozens of characters and numerous sub-plots and sub-storylines. How could one writer NOT make a mistake? Pretty easily actually. It's called doing your homework. Research. Review. Write. Rewrite. That's pretty much the process that all stories go through, fiction and non fiction. Sure, some writers don't do that, but that's just being lazy and not doing the job properly.
How could one writer remember everything characters have said and done in past drafts, when writing new ones? Um, geez, let me guess..... Maybe, just maybe, he could, ya know, pull out the scripts or even copies of the movies themselves to review what was committed to page and screen. If he lost his, they are all available at www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/) . Damn, had I known the Prequels were going to be so bad, I would have gladly donated my own copies of the OT to Lucas and even dropped them off at the Ranch personally! I know where it is!
Main ideas may be maintained, but details tend to get a little fuzzy For a lazy hack writer, maybe. Or say, if the writer just doesn't really give a sh** or has another agenda perhaps.
... what Ben said in Ep. 4, Chapter __, Scene __,... in a draft written thirty years prior, already read and reread numerous times since. Can you imagine? One might argue, "Well, if it's been reread so many times, why can't he remember it correctly? And, moreover, why can't he just reread the frickin' thing AGAIN to avoid making a mistake?" Easier said than done. It is?

Step 1) go to library with scripts
2) pick up script
3) open it
4) read
5) make notes where necessary
6) if having trouble, hire experienced WGA Writer as was done for Episodes IV, V, and VI and every movie and television show Lucas has been involved with since American Graffiti.


... George the writer likely remembers events in the story differently than your average fan who was there for the first film in 1977.
It's not about "remembering." It's about looking at what was committed to film and what continuity was established and working from there. It's not a memory contest and nobody expects any storyteller to remember everything by heart.



... Plus, who wants to read the same passage one wrote decades earlier, YET AGAIN? You're making a lot of assumptions here... it's as if you believe that Lucas has done nothing but re-read his scripts ad infinitum since 1983.
... That is a human failing. Errors and inconsistencies happened in Tolkien, the Arthurian legends, and the Bible. It can easily happen to Lucas. We accept the problems with the former, since their authors are conveniently dead. Lucas is a living myth-maker, and so is an easy target. No, I'd happily attack their continuity errors if I knew their works well enough and had the interest. It has nothing to do with Lucas's current state of existence.


Lucas doesn't owe anybody a damned thing. Owe? That's a tricky word. When it comes down to it, nobody "owes" anybody anything. However, when an "artist" decides to establish a continuity, he does have a responsibility to maintain it UNLESS he freely discloses and admits that he is altering it. Arthur C. Clarke did just that in his 20XX series of books. Every day on set, the Script Supervisor is there to look out for mistakes and inconsistencies between shots and scenes. The same care is expected between films if they are part of a greater whole.
As an artist, he can write what he wants, and do what he wants to with it. It's HIS CREATION. We are free to judge it as we see fit, but to expect George the artist to conform to his audience's vision of his work is to expect too much. Whoa... nobody is asking any artist to "conform" to the audience's "vision." It's about Lucas maintaining the story that he helped create. That's what the audience expected to see, not some off-the-wall "vision" that didn't match the originals. Can he "Create" what he wants? Of course and he did. And because he failed to live up to the justified expectations of the majority of the fanbase and general audience, he will continue to receive criticism for it.
Further, to expect Lucas's or any writer's vision to be perfect, or simply without contradictions, is too much. Correct, but when there is evidence that very little effort was done to accomplish the highest level of perfection possible, then we have the right to discuss it and criticize.
The problems are when the errors and contradictions get in the way of the story, and that has not happened with Star Wars, however clumsily the story gets told. Very wrong. Even some die-hard Prequel-Defenders freely admit that errors and contradictions exist, but they choose to rationalize them away or ignore them in favor of concentrating on the few positive aspects of the movies.
Clones, Threepio's silver leg, Anakin's piloting skills, and other bones of contention are all incidental to the main storyline I disagree. Some elements are indeed superficial, but others do indeed have impact upon the storyline and characters. A movie isn't just pretty pictures with a story underneath. The pretty pictures are there to facilitate telling a story so anything that is out of place could, and sometimes does, detract from the story as a whole.
-- the hero's fall and redemption -- which successfully progresses in a fairly straightforward manner over six films. What the main storyline actually is is a discussion for elsewhere as I don't personally believe that Star Wars is about a hero's fall and redemption. It is an element, yes, but Star Wars is not inherently ABOUT the rise/fall/redemption of Anakin Skywalker. In terms of that element progressing in a straightforward manner across six films, I and many others will disagree. The Prequels laid out a very haphazard path for the character of Anakin to travel, seemingly, into the suit of Darth Vader. The result is a character that bears little resemblance to the Darth Vader of the OT so there is a disconnect that can never be properly bridged.
-- Having a Jango Fett clone head beneath a snowtrooper's helmet doesn't change the story's successful telling one whit. The latter may be fun to debate, but to expand that into a damning critique of the whole indicates little more than the overzealous analysis of a myopic vision. Yes, one brick does not a castle make, however it is one element amongst many that bring it down.

stillakid
12-05-2007, 03:05 PM
I heard the Spielberg helped design the fight.

It wasn't him. :)

TheRealDubya
12-05-2007, 03:07 PM
...when I said I thought the original trilogy implied that the Republic didn't use clones but fought an outside force who did use clones...

That's totally what I thought too before I had seen AOTC. As a kid, that phrase "The Clone Wars" conjured up so much unhinged imagination.

I think, if anything, Mr. Lucas got lost in the "meaning" of the Vader metaphor, the Joseph Campbell allusions. I would have preferred three films that were an adventure yarn with three friends (Padme, Anakain and Kenobi) and a good old fashioned love triangle. You don't need any other motivation for murder and turning to the dark side than a love triangle. Maybe Mr. Lucas doesn't relate to those kinds of emotions.

I think what I disliked the most was the midochlorian concept and the chastity of the Jedi. It kind of sucked all of the fun out of it by neutering it like that. BUT, I still really enjoyed the story, and LOVE the design work of ILM. It's not the Star Wars I would have made, but it's a Star Wars, by gum! I'm ranting, sorry.

TheRealDubya
12-05-2007, 03:08 PM
It wasn't him. :)

You sneaky bugger. Keep your secrets! :lipsrsealed:

Droid
12-05-2007, 03:37 PM
I don't know that I would have wanted Anakin to turn evil over a love triangle, but I do enjoy the image of Anakin and Obi-wan in a Jedi mind trick battle with some poor girl stuck in the middle. "You don't love Anakin, you love me." "You don't love Obi-wan, you love me."

decadentdave
12-05-2007, 04:17 PM
Would have been cooler if Palpatine had created Dark Jedi clones of the council members and a clone Obi-Wan had tried to seduce Padme to get Anakin to turn. I always thought the Prequels would be about deceit and treachery. Dark Side dopplegangers "infecting" the Jedi order to turn them against each other from within would have been a lot more treacherous and deceptive.

Droid
12-05-2007, 04:30 PM
I never thought Luke and Leia's mother would be a huge part of the prequels. I thought the prequels would be a story of relationships: Anakin and Owen, Anakin and Obi-wan, and Anakin and Palpatine.

bigbarada
12-05-2007, 04:31 PM
This guy has been working on essentially the same storyline for going on FORTY YEARS, with said storyline's arc covering a period of, what, about thirty years, with dozens of characters and numerous sub-plots and sub-storylines. How could one writer NOT make a mistake?

Your saying that during the 11 confirmed years that Lucas was working on the prequels that he didn't have 6.5 hours to spare to pop the OT into his VCR and watch them to make sure his PT story jived with what actually showed up onscreen?

Dark Marble
12-05-2007, 04:54 PM
Thanks for that. I think that the OT vs. prequel argument has gotten to the point where people won't admit anything to the other side. I try to admit when I am wrong or when someone makes a good point; for instance, when I said I thought the original trilogy implied that the Republic didn't use clones but fought an outside force who did use clones, I later admitted that was much more my assumption and that both sides could have used clones.

No problem Droid, I hope my tone never comes of as stand offish or nasty, it is not my intent! I am glad I can come here and enjoy conversations about Star Wars. And beleive me I find the new trilogy far from perfect and the OT is special to me as I grew up with it, but I like them both on their own merits.

Droid
12-05-2007, 05:21 PM
No problem Droid, I hope my tone never comes of as stand offish or nasty, it is not my intent! I am glad I can come here and enjoy conversations about Star Wars. And beleive me I find the new trilogy far from perfect and the OT is special to me as I grew up with it, but I like them both on their own merits.

I think the prequels have some wonderful moments. When I saw the Phantom Menace I really was amazed at how it looked. It felt like Star Wars to me and I spent a couple years defending it. I think Qui-Gon and Obi-wan's fight against the Battle Droids and Qui-Gon melting the door, the establishing shots of Naboo, Watto, Obi-wan's fight with Maul, the Duel of the Fates score, Kamino, the Geonosis arena (minus 3P0 and the battle droid having switched heads), the attempt to save Palpatine on the Invisble Hand, and Obi-wan's duel with Anakin on Mustafar are really wonderful moments. I just wish they had been a part of the story we were promised.

decadentdave
12-05-2007, 06:53 PM
I never thought Luke and Leia's mother would be a huge part of the prequels. I thought the prequels would be a story of relationships: Anakin and Owen, Anakin and Obi-wan, and Anakin and Palpatine.

That would have been the homoerotic Joel Schumacher version.

JediTricks
12-07-2007, 11:07 PM
It was like they spun Indy meeting Hitler in Last Crusade into a whole show. Hey, what if Indy met EVERYONE in history?

And it was a bit too educational for my tastes. As a kid I could pick up on the fact that they were trying to teach me and that thery were saying, "Learning can be FUN!"

And I hated the old Indy stuff that I understand Lucas has eliminated because reality is whatever Lucas claims it is right now, not whatever people saw onscreen and likely still have on VHS tapes out there.Man, you nailed it on all counts.

I hated the Old Indy stuff the most, that geezer seemed NOTHING like Indy. Neither did the kiddies playing Indy but that could be explained away.



This is ridiculous. People need to CUT LUCAS A BREAK when it comes to issues of continuity regarding the OT and the PT. This guy has been working on essentially the same storyline for going on FORTY YEARS, with said storyline's arc covering a period of, what, about thirty years, with dozens of characters and numerous sub-plots and sub-storylines. How could one writer NOT make a mistake? How could one writer remember everything characters have said and done in past drafts, when writing new ones? Main ideas may be maintained, but details tend to get a little fuzzy... what Ben said in Ep. 4, Chapter __, Scene __,... in a draft written thirty years prior, already read and reread numerous times since. Can you imagine? One might argue, "Well, if it's been reread so many times, why can't he remember it correctly? And, moreover, why can't he just reread the frickin' thing AGAIN to avoid making a mistake?" Easier said than done. George the writer likely remembers events in the story differently than your average fan who was there for the first film in 1977. Plus, who wants to read the same passage one wrote decades earlier, YET AGAIN? That is a human failing. Errors and inconsistencies happened in Tolkien, the Arthurian legends, and the Bible. It can easily happen to Lucas. We accept the problems with the former, since their authors are conveniently dead. Lucas is a living myth-maker, and so is an easy target.Yeah, totally! I mean, it's not like he's a billionaire running a corporation - one dedicated specifically to his SMALL number of films and theoretically to striving for cinematic excellence - where he could just hire a team to check continuity or anything.

Old Fossil
12-08-2007, 01:39 AM
Yeah, totally! I mean, it's not like he's a billionaire running a corporation - one dedicated specifically to his SMALL number of films and theoretically to striving for cinematic excellence - where he could just hire a team to check continuity or anything.

Isn't it possible that he did hire a team, and they failed? -- and maybe that failure wasn't inherent in their own abilities, but in Lucas's to accept their recommendations for changes. But further, isn't it possible that Lucas, confident in his abilities to write a story he feels he knows backwards and forwards, didn't hire a "team" for that purpose at all? You are assuming that Lucas can serenely acknowledge truthfully, to himself, his flaws as Creator of his epic fantasy world-system. I would be willing to bet that Lucas, having first written the "greatest sci-fi fantasy epic of all," is not one of those rather uncommon writers who see themselves as fallible. I'm not saying he his guiltless, artistically, but I think it is possible that Lucas the writer is in the enviable position of not having to worry about things like editors. His own past successes (also subject to argument:)) have elevated him beyond the need to write a story that can pass beyond an editor's desk. He doesn't have to impress anyone anymore, in his mind. Lucas can be his own editor, first and last, and to him, the work really needs nobody's approval but his own. That, to some apparently, is in varying degrees detrimental to the Prequel story. I really think that may have been the position he was in when he was writing the PT. I guess such overconfidence is inexcusable, but it is understandable in George's peculiar case, and I don't think he should be nailed to a cross for it.

JediTricks
12-08-2007, 01:58 AM
Then he'd be a failure as their boss. I mean, it's only his NAME on the company and all. I kinda doubt he'd hire people that failed, my guess is he thinks he has the "rich tapestry" all still in his head and only he could deliver the scripts anyway. I suspect he's not ENTIRELY wrong there either, he just didn't go through the humble process of getting help from strong-willed friends and employees that he did with previous outings. He's got a lot of dichotomy in him, he thinks of himself as supereditor even though he tried to mangle ESB, yet he knows he's a horrible director and a weak writer, and his talents are best served as a more overseeing "storyteller". He's always railed against big corporations being a paper pusher like his dad was (anybody get that joke?) yet that's what he's become by rebelling against it in his way. He thinks independent movies are often the best way to do it, but he loathes roadblocks which inspire the creative process.

El Chuxter
12-08-2007, 02:08 AM
Since this is still under toys, I'm with Roboto. Re-releasing figures with Jango heads is a scheme no better than different paint on Clonetroopers, getting people to buy the same figure over and over and over rather than giving us new stuff we want.

Five years, and not a single prequel Lars family member. And it's been eight years since one of the old ones was available.

Deoxyribonucleic
12-08-2007, 02:57 AM
Five years, and not a single prequel Lars family member. And it's been eight years since one of the old ones was available.

Here! Here! I was just thinking about Beru the other day (not in that way Chux, sheesh) that we needed a new sculpt from the POTF2 version but I have my doubts that we will be seeing her. Owen DEFINITELY needs a new sculpt as well! The pointing action just doesn't work. Maybe they can release a new clone with removeable helmet and armor and low and behold, Owen and Beru are underneath. I'd rather have new figures or newer sculpts of old, than all this removeable helmet jango underneath stuff clogging shelves.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-08-2007, 03:06 AM
The one good thing about Jango is that his name works great in the Name Game song.

Jango Jango bo Bango
Banana fana fo Fango
Fe fi mo Mango
Jango

Boba is pretty good too, but a bit of a tongue twister. Plus you have to remember to drop the B - it's bo Oba.

So, lets all grab a Jango trooper in each hand and dance around the living room singing the song.

Or not.

Deoxyribonucleic
12-08-2007, 03:10 AM
The one good thing about Jango is that his name works great in the Name Game song.

Jango Jango bo Bango
Banana fana fo Fango
Fe fi mo Mango
Jango

Boba is pretty good too, but a bit of a tongue twister. Plus you have to remember to drop the B - it's bo Oba.

So, lets all grab a Jango trooper in each hand and dance around the living room singing the song.

Or not.

I tried it...



my neighbors saw me...



they called the police...



I'm doomed...



maybe it's because I was naked? :whip:




Thanks for getting me arrested MSP :mad:





;)

El Chuxter
12-08-2007, 03:56 AM
If you were thinking about young Beru in "that way," I have a feeling you would not be alone on these forums. :beard:

2-1B
12-08-2007, 04:03 AM
Nobody can sexualize the word "Hello" like Young Beru !!!

Mad Slanted Powers
03-08-2008, 03:49 PM
I don't recall if this was already mentioned in this thread, and I didn't find any reference to it when going back through the posts, but this was on the Wookieepedia page for for Commander Praji (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Praji):


Praji was promoted to serve as Darth Vader's aide aboard the Devastator. After failing to recover the plans to the first Death Star from the Tantive IV, Praji "personally" led a detachment of stormtroopers to Tatooine in search of the escape pod used by R2-D2 and C-3PO. In reality, he sent his subordinate, Captain Kosh, to lead the detachment.

elvandrik
03-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Get him a new stick for his 'Dead Horse Beating' hobby.


He has a right to hate on the prequels just like every sad fanboy has a right to try and convince us that somehow JarJar didn't suck.


There is much more in the movies to suggest that the troopers aren't clones than to suggest that they are. Funny how they ALL have different voices even though there are clones and they NEVER look alike when it is a trooper not wearing a helmet. You'd think that for the Rebellion to succeed there would be SOME mention of hitting the cloning facilities.

I think the original trilogy implies that the Clone Wars in some way revolves around the issue of cloning or a force that used Clones as its soldiers. By the time Episode IV kicks off, it seems as though the Clone issue had been resolved in the past, not "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. And once that was over the galaxy settled comfortably into the notion that Clones would be the primary troopers of the government."

It makes more sense that the Republic was attacked by a cloning force which overwhelmed the Republic and the Jedi for an extended period of time and more than one series of conflicts. Though the Clone forces were repulsed the chaos resulted in the end of the Jedi and the rise of the Empire. But no, I guess it makes much more sense that the Rebellion itself used the Clones but for some reason decided that a war that last three years should be referred to later as "the Clone Wars", even though the main army of the government continued to be clones after the Clone Wars were over. :rolleyes:

If the Empire still uses Clones then aren't the Clone Wars still continuing? If you don't refer to the wars by the enemy you fought but the soldiers you use what is the difference between the fight with the Trade Federation or the Rebellion in naming your war?

And isn't the implication that the Rebellion was attacked by an outside force in the Clone Wars rather than there having been a civil war made more clear by the statement in Episode IV "It is a period of civil war." The prequels showed a civil war. The original trilogy showed a civil war. Shouldn't Episode IV have said, "It is still a period of civil war." or "It is once again a civil war." or "Man, can you believe how many civil wars we're having?" Under Lucas' prequels there was a civil war between the Republic and the Separatists within Palpatine's government and then in the original trilogy a civil war between the Empire and the Rebellion within Palpatine's government?

I think we were led to believe the Clone Wars were a war with an exterior enemy while the Galactic Civil War was just that a civil war from within.

It SHOULD have been: prequels, Clone Wars, outside force attacks the Rebellion, clones are the main attacking force. original trilogy, Galactic Civil War, war from within, conscripts are the main attacking force.

In short, I think to suddenly say thirty years later, oh by the way, the Empire's soldiers are clones is extremely weak.

Sigh.


De-Nile is not just a river in Egypt...

stillakid
10-12-2008, 11:56 PM
He has a right to hate on the prequels just like every sad fanboy has a right to try and convince us that somehow JarJar didn't suck.
.

Look what I found tonight! This is a case of the OT 'infecting' the Prequels... in a good way!


http://www.briancombs.net/pictures/LucasArts0908/lucasarts0908-04o.jpg

El Chuxter
10-13-2008, 01:12 AM
Simply awesome. I don't see why every home doesn't have one.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-13-2008, 01:21 AM
That was crafted for Celebration III and was on display in the droid builders room. George Lucas went there, liked it, and the guy who made it gave him one. True story.

Now you know.

JediTricks
10-16-2008, 02:35 AM
Oh, if you like that, you'll dig this: http://gizmodo.com/5028103/george-lucas-in-carbonite

bigbarada
10-16-2008, 12:43 PM
For various reasons, I'm not at liberty to name names, but I recently had the opportunity to discuss that final fight with some people very key to its creation.

Essentially the way the fight was designed by others who are not Lucas was to have it in thirds... the first third was to have Obi Wan defending himself through and through with no doubts as to what is going on. The second third was a turning point where Obi Wan realizes that Anakin is beyond hope so he goes on the attack. The final third is the ultimate confrontation wherein two really great swordsmen battle it out but the better man wins. It was suggested that the entire fight be shown from start to finish to preserve the "story" that is being told with it.

However, Lucas evidently isn't much of a collaborator on much of anything for whatever reasons he chooses. So, that idea was tossed out completely and we ended up with what's on screen. So little things like Obi Wan igniting first is akin to Greedo firing first. It seems small, but really has a large impact on his state of mind and how we perceive his beliefs and intentions. Had the story been told per Spirit Ben's story in ROTJ, Obi Wan would have been ENTIRELY on the defensive for a vast majority of that fight and would be trying to plead with Anakin's "good side" until it proved useless. That's not what happened at all. Just another example of how the Prequel's reimagined the established continuity to the detriment of the saga as a whole.

I would agree and how Obi-Wan appeared in that scene (standing at the top of the ship's ramp with his hands on his hips) appeared very confrontational. as if he was asking for a fight.

What would have fit better is have Anakin sense Obi-Wan's presence and then start calling Padme a liar because he believes that she's brought Kenobi there to kill him. Of course, Padme would have no idea what Anakin is talking about because Obi-Wan is still hiding and he would only reveal himself after Anakin begins to force-choke Padme in an attempt to prevent him from killing her.

Obi-Wan appeared too confrontational at the beginning of that scene and it almost seems like it's his fault that Anakin attacks Padme.

DarkArtist
10-17-2008, 12:48 PM
Oh, if you like that, you'll dig this: http://gizmodo.com/5028103/george-lucas-in-carbonite

that is too funny JT. i wish Hasbro would make some exclusive action figures of that along with the Jar Jar in Carbonite. I bet they woould definately sell out.

JediTricks
10-18-2008, 04:59 PM
Every home should have one!

Bib Un-Fortuna
10-18-2008, 07:31 PM
Yeah, JT, that one is cool. Kinda looks a lot like my avatar . . .

stillakid
10-18-2008, 07:35 PM
Every home should have one!

Right. At this point, Lucas should accept that most people think his Prequels are crap and, Lucas being Lucas, should do whatever necessary to capitalize on it. Action figures that deride the films would sell. Also, Lucas should make "scenes" of the Prequels available on the website so that true fans could reedit the films as best as possible... at least to make them slightly more watchable.

He's already made his money from his versions. What's the harm in letting disappointed fans get some kind of satisfaction?

Mad Slanted Powers
10-18-2008, 07:42 PM
Right. At this point, Lucas should accept that most people think his Prequels are crap and, Lucas being Lucas, should do whatever necessary to capitalize on it. Action figures that deride the films would sell. Also, Lucas should make "scenes" of the Prequels available on the website so that true fans could reedit the films as best as possible... at least to make them slightly more watchable.

He's already made his money from his versions. What's the harm in letting disappointed fans get some kind of satisfaction?Wasn't there a "Han Shot First" t-shirt? That at least should appease those that didn't like the SE changes.

JediTricks
10-20-2008, 04:13 PM
Yeah, Lucas was wearing it on-set for Indy 4. The irony there must have been what crushed that movie, its weight too much for any production to bear.

2-1B
10-20-2008, 08:01 PM
I think George was wearing it to drive home the fact that no matter what version(s) of the film(s) we prefer, he made money off of us both ways. lol

Jargo
11-03-2008, 08:11 PM
SHAFT!

Sorry. Isacc Hayes posessed me for a moment..

El Chuxter
11-03-2008, 08:22 PM
Ya damn right!

pbarnard
11-03-2008, 08:53 PM
Yeah, Lucas was wearing it on-set for Indy 4. The irony there must have been what crushed that movie, its weight too much for any production to bear.


That or the triplely re-enforced "director's chair" under the weight of his butt.

JediTricks
11-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Producer, not director. :p

pbarnard
11-05-2008, 11:07 AM
Producer, not director. :p

But the chair's style is called "director's chair".

JediTricks
11-05-2008, 05:23 PM
But the chair's style is called "director's chair".
Not for a Lucas. ;)