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stillakid
12-04-2007, 09:03 AM
I remember hearing about how Hayden was fitted for the Darth Vader costume and even had boots with risers in them to make him look taller.

Back up a few years to the original movies.... to "create" Darth Vader, Lucas and Co. used David Prowse because of his size and James Earl Jones because of the voice. At times, stuntmen were used for the sword fighting sequences. When Vader was finally unmasked, another Actor was brought in to portray old Anakin.

Point being, during the OT era, they did what was necessary to "create" the character and could get away with it because it is a masked character.

So back to ROTS. The only reason they needed Hayden was for the shot when the mask is put on. After that, a larger actor could have been hired for the shots of Vader when he is fully costumed, the way they did it with David Prowse years before.

Movies are all about creating the illusion of a reality that doesn't truly exist, so what was the point of trying to make Hayden fit the suit when he clearly wasn't the proper size when it would have been just as easy to hire an appropriate actor for the role of masked-Vader?

2-1B
12-04-2007, 05:45 PM
cuz H Christ asked G Lu if he could don the suit and George agreed to let him do it, I believe it was really as simple as that.
There's a bonus feature somewhere that talks about it, probably on a DVD.

Kinda like granting Sam Jackson his wish of being a Stormtrooper, ecxept he got to be a Jedi Master with dialogue and action scenes instead.

JimJamBonds
12-04-2007, 08:43 PM
...when he clearly wasn't the proper size...

Clearly? Really?!?!? So you would have pointed out some sort of problem even if you'd known it wasn't Hayden in the suit?

Personally, I haven't found the time to check out pics of Hayder's in the black suit compared to Prowse and figure out 'out of proportion body parts.'

Rocketboy
12-04-2007, 08:48 PM
Movies are all about creating the illusion of a reality that doesn't truly exist, so what was the point of trying to make Hayden fit the suit when he clearly wasn't the proper size when it would have been just as easy to hire an appropriate actor for the role of masked-Vader?Who gives a sh*t?

JediTricks
12-05-2007, 01:16 AM
Caes is right, Hayden asked to do it, and Lucas no longer cared about the saga's integrity so he just ran with it, tiny hands and all. Same with Sam Jackson's purple lightsaber with gold-accented hilt.


JJB, I knew something looked terribly wrong long before we knew it was Hayden in that suit, the hands were small and the proportions were all off - Vader's torso and legs and arms somehow grow another 5 inches between ROTS and ANH.

stillakid
12-05-2007, 02:06 AM
Who gives a sh*t?

Well, :sur: I guess I do! :thumbsup:

stillakid
12-05-2007, 02:10 AM
Clearly? Really?!?!? So you would have pointed out some sort of problem even if you'd known it wasn't Hayden in the suit?

Personally, I haven't found the time to check out pics of Hayder's in the black suit compared to Prowse and figure out 'out of proportion body parts.'

First, yes, I back up what JT said. It didn't look quite right.

But that really isn't the point of the question. Even if they somehow had managed to get Vader to look right with Hayden inside, there is no practical reason to go to so much trouble when it would be a lot easier to just hire somebody who already is the proper size and proportion to match a 1975-76 David Prowse. Movies are about creating illusions.

Droid
12-05-2007, 09:27 AM
If they wanted to make a point of letting someone actually be in the costume, maybe they could have found a scene to let Kenny Baker play R2. Better yet, stop having R2 fly and then maybe you don't need to computer animate R2 anyway. :upset:

And can anyone point me to ANY source that confirms James Earl Jones did Vader's voice? He didn't sound right to me and I can't find anywhere that actually states it was him.

stillakid
12-05-2007, 10:13 AM
If they wanted to make a point of letting someone actually be in the costume, maybe they could have found a scene to let Kenny Baker play R2. Better yet, stop having R2 fly and then maybe you don't need to computer animate R2 anyway. :upset:

And can anyone point me to ANY source that confirms James Earl Jones did Vader's voice? He didn't sound right to me and I can't find anywhere that actually states it was him.

It was him, but I agree that it didn't sound quite right. But I attribute it to stupid lame moronic dialogue like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo" (http://darthno.ytmnd.com/)

I'm not just being argumentative here. That dialogue just doesn't "fit" the Vader character. It isn't even really Whine-akin either. Neither character would have said:

"Is she.... al..right.......Is she.... o...kay?"

Then of course the "Nooooooooooooooo" None of it sounded like either character at all. Just lame.


http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/22/25/22t.jpg (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000469/)
James Earl Jones (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000469/) ... Darth Vader (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000005/) (voice) (uncredited)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/

JON9000
12-05-2007, 10:22 AM
Even if they somehow had managed to get Vader to look right with Hayden inside, there is no practical reason to go to so much trouble when it would be a lot easier to just hire somebody who already is the proper size and proportion to match a 1975-76 David Prowse. Movies are about creating illusions.

And if you had been cast as Anakin, I am sure you would have been in Lucas' earhole to don the mask. I know I would have been.

Don't lie!

JimJamBonds
12-05-2007, 10:32 AM
And can anyone point me to ANY source that confirms James Earl Jones did Vader's voice? He didn't sound right to me and I can't find anywhere that actually states it was him.

It was JEJ, I do remember hearing/seeing/reading something by the sound guys saying they tweaked his voice a bit.

2-1B
12-05-2007, 07:41 PM
Two things to add:

A) This thread has me feeling nostalgic for one of stillakid's all time greatest phrases from a few years ago, "montage shot of Hayden going into the suit." :grin:

2) It doesn't matter if H-Christ is too small because that new video game action figure of Darth Vader is all battle damaged and beat up, so I'm sure in between Trilogies he gets larger body parts added to his frame. lol

Deoxyribonucleic
12-05-2007, 08:20 PM
Then of course the "Nooooooooooooooo" None of it sounded like either character at all. Just lame.


OMG, that IS hilarious! I still have it running. Almost as good as Dramatic Chipmunk played over and over and over...

decadentdave
12-05-2007, 08:32 PM
Yeah it would have been nice of Dave Prowse had come back and donned the costume once again. I know in spite of his health issues he really wanted to do it.

As for the dialogue issues, if you suddenly woke up as a cyborg, you'd be a bit incoherrent trying to adjust to your new situation as well. I'm sure Anakin was concerned about Padme after he choked her unconcious so he wanted to know if she was alright. It came out fragmented because he was still trying to adjust to the suit as explained in Luceno's novel. And his outburst of shock when Sidious tells him that he killed her...

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If it happened to you, what would your reaction have been? "Well, that sucks."

Come on, the pain and horror going on inside him was intense. I don't have a problem with it. That would probably have been my reaction as well.

2-1B
12-05-2007, 08:42 PM
If it happened to you, what would your reaction have been? "Well, that sucks."

I would probably be bummin' at the thought that I would never get to take Natalie Portman to the boneyard again.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-05-2007, 09:03 PM
Yeah it would have been nice of Dave Prowse had come back and donned the costume once again. I know in spite of his health issues he really wanted to do it.

As for the dialogue issues, if you suddenly woke up as a cyborg, you'd be a bit incoherrent trying to adjust to your new situation as well. I'm sure Anakin was concerned about Padme after he choked her unconcious so he wanted to know if she was alright. It came out fragmented because he was still trying to adjust to the suit as explained in Luceno's novel. And his outburst of shock when Sidious tells him that he killed her...

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If it happened to you, what would your reaction have been? "Well, that sucks."

Come on, the pain and horror going on inside him was intense. I don't have a problem with it. That would probably have been my reaction as well.Indeed. Anakin says "Yippee!" and he is criticized. Now as Vader he says "NOOOOO!" and he is criticized. I guess all of his dialogue should have been something like, "I don't really know what to think about that."

Rocketboy
12-05-2007, 09:12 PM
Hayden. Best. Darth. Vader. Ever.

Neuroleptic
12-05-2007, 10:14 PM
I didn't mind Hayden's performance as Vader. The guy is totaly flipped out since he just got fried, lost his last three limbs, has a resperator, portable Iron lung, probably a cathater, went through painful surgery, and now, he finds out his girl is dead.

I'd say he had a bit to adjust to and probably wouldn't quite be normal at that moment. He also would be getting used to the new outfit and replaced parts.

Plus, he hasn't been Darth Vader for verry long. He is in that thing the next . . . what? 25 years? He's got plenty of time to biuld up a new persona before we even see him in episode 4.

It's just about everything before that wich ticks me off about his acting.

decadentdave
12-05-2007, 10:23 PM
If there's just one thing I could change about ROTS it would be to cut out the line "Because I'm so in love with you." Worst line ever.

Luuuuuuke
12-06-2007, 01:56 AM
And his outburst of shock when Sidious tells him that he killed her...

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If it happened to you, what would your reaction have been? "Well, that sucks."

.

That last sentence literally made me crack up:D Just the idea of Vader saying, "Well, that sucks" is funny as hell. Or maybe Vader could have snapped his fingers and said, "Goddammit!" Or, "Well I'll be a sunofa*****! I guess I don't know my own strength."

I also don't have a problem with Vader's long "nooooo!." I have a lot of problems with the prequels, but I generally blame Lucas. I think Hayden is a pretty good actor. He was great in "Shattered Glass." I think he acted as Lucas wanted him too.

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 02:15 AM
I also don't have a problem with Vader's long "nooooo!." I have a lot of problems with the prequels, but I generally blame Lucas. I think Hayden is a pretty good actor. He was great in "Shattered Glass." I think he acted as Lucas wanted him too.

Isn't it kind of poetic that Vader screams "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" the way Luke does in ESB? I think that was the intent.

Droid
12-06-2007, 09:19 AM
My biggest beef is that Lucas did it as an homage to Frankenstein. I think him ripping himself off the table played for humor a bit and totally took me out of what should have been a very chilling and emotional scene.

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 01:23 PM
My biggest beef is that Lucas did it as an homage to Frankenstein. I think him ripping himself off the table played for humor a bit and totally took me out of what should have been a very chilling and emotional scene.

Well then you must have a beef with Star Wars in general because Lucas rips off Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Kurosawa and others. The whole thing is a homage to the films he grew up with, that's why he made them. Who cares if it's a homage to Frankenstein. I don't mind and it's rather befitting anyway. I enjoyed it.

Droid
12-06-2007, 01:39 PM
Well then you must have a beef with Star Wars in general because Lucas rips off Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Kurosawa and others. The whole thing is a homage to the films he grew up with, that's why he made them. Who cares if it's a homage to Frankenstein? I don't mind and it's rather befitting anyway. I enjoyed it.

I care because it played for humor and it made Vader look clunky and goofy.

I don't have a problem with past works influencing future works. I know that there are clear references to the Searchers or Triumph of the Will in a New Hope. I don't think there is anyone that saw Luke pull up to the homestead in A New Hope and laughed and went, "Ha! It's just like the Searchers."

It is fine if things resonate because they resurrect things in your subconscious that you've seen before. I have a problem with him just recreating something famous for a Star Wars movie so that you laugh and go, "Oh, it's like Frankenstein." I shouldn't be actively thinking of Frankenstein when I watch Star Wars. I should be thinking of Star Wars.

At the moment that we first saw Darth Vader in the prequels, Lucas should have tried harder to make it seem like the Darth Vader of the original trilogy than to remind me of Frankenstein. For many of us, that just didn't feel like Darth Vader. There is more to Darth Vader than the costume, not that the costume was 100% accurate. As discussed here, for one thing, it was too small.

I think Lucas was subtle in his homages in the original trilogy and beat you over the head with it in the prequels. And I have a problem with that.

bigbarada
12-06-2007, 02:52 PM
When Lucas was writing ANH, he had absolutely no pull with the studio and when they saw his rough cut for Star Wars, they almost fired him as director. It was only after begging them for another chance and promising that he could do better, that they allowed him to recut the film.

For ESB, Lucas was pretty much absent for the entire process. He only showed up on set twice during principal photography and he didn't even write the film, he just approved Lawrence Kasdan's draft. Plus, the studios were less than convinced that it was possible to make a successful sequel to a film like Star Wars, so it was in some ways an even greater uphill battle to get ESB made.

By ROTJ, Lucas could do no wrong. So he had full control over the entire film. Even though he still had Lawrence Kasdan write the script and Richard Marquand direct it; Lucas still took the reigns and personally dictated how some scenes were supposed to work (primarily the Ewok battle).

For the prequels, Lucas started believing his own hype that he was a god and one of the greatest filmmakers of all time. So he surrounded himself with yes-men and arrogantly set out to do it all on his own.

It's just interesting that the two films that Lucas had the least control over ended up being the best ones in the entire saga.

My point is, if Lucas had tried this Darth Vader scene back in the OT days, SOMEBODY would have had the courage to stand up and say SOMETHING.

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 03:52 PM
When you were a kid you had no point of reference so you weren't conscious of the influences behind Star Wars. As an adult, you are more experienced and can consciously draw comparisons to other influences. If you saw ROTS as a child you more than likely would not have made the inference to Frankenstein just as you would not have made the inferences to John Ford, Kurosawa and others when you saw Star Wars as a child. There are a lot of references to The Searchers in AOTC as well. Didn't take me out of the picture. When I watched Raiders I never made any references to the serials of the 40's. Those films were built upon those influences. That's like saying, "Gee, I can't enjoy the truck chase in Raiders because it's a ripoff of that Yakima Canutt sequence in John Ford's Stagecoach." Well, it is.

Droid
12-06-2007, 04:28 PM
I still say Lucas WANTED people to start thinking of Frankenstein and that he was making a joke when Vader yanked himself off the table and lumbered across the room. It was totally inappropriate for the emotional gravity of that scene. It is one thing to be influenced by other films when writing a scene. It is another to have onscreen in jokes and sight gags saying, "Hey, we're copying this other movie." In TPM he had E.T.! In TPM he had the pod from 2001. He put himself and his children in ROTS. These are the things he did not and would not have done in the original trilogy.

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 06:13 PM
I totally disagree. As a matter of fact Lucas DID put the Pod from 2001 outside the cantina in ANH and there are other little things like that throughout the trilogy I'm sure. My point is that humor was not the intent of the scene with Vader. I never got that impression. When I watch Clockwork Orange I laugh hysterically during the rape scene when Alex is beating the guy while dancing to Singing In the Rain because there is such hilarious and twisted irony, to me at least, in hearing that song which conjurs up pleasant images of Gene Kelly juxtaposed to something morally wrong. That was not the intention to make a joke out of rape and violence although it does make it more palatable to watch such a disturbing and shocking scene. You are mentally associating with something that to you is personally cheesy. Lucas intended to convey shock, horror and anguish while at the same time drawing upon an inference of the classic monster films because here's this guy who has now become an abomination of what he once was and is now trapped in an armored prison and has become the puppet of an evil Emperor who has tricked him into doing his bidding and lying to him that he killed his lover. What do you think his reaction is going to be? If he had said something like "Well, that just sucks." then I would be laughing my azz off because that is something that Hayden and young Gen-Y guys like him would say, not Vader.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-06-2007, 07:05 PM
You are mentally associating with something that to you is personally cheesy. Lucas intended to convey shock, horror and anguish while at the same time drawing upon an inference of the classic monster films Well put. I was thinking the same thing. It's probably similar to the reason so many were upset at the possibility of N'Sync being in AOTC. Even though they would have been just like any other background Jedi in the Arena, people's negative feelings associated with the group threatened to taint the movie for them.

bigbarada
12-06-2007, 07:48 PM
I still say Lucas WANTED people to start thinking of Frankenstein and that he was making a joke when Vader yanked himself off the table and lumbered across the room. It was totally inappropriate for the emotional gravity of that scene.

I agree, it was just bad judgement on Lucas part to try to turn that scene into something humorous. It completely undermined what he had spent three films building up to.

That's comparable to Luke yelling "doh!" when Vader reveals that he's his father in ESB.

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 08:39 PM
I agree, it was just bad judgement on Lucas part to try to turn that scene into something humorous. It completely undermined what he had spent three films building up to.

That's comparable to Luke yelling "doh!" when Vader reveals that he's his father in ESB.

Wrong. As I said, it would have been comparable to Luke yelling "D'oh!" if Vader said, "Well, that sucks." Point is, Lucas did NOT intend for it to be humorous nor was it bad judgment on his part. Those of us who can appreciate film and can draw the inference find it to be appropriate to the context of the scene. You guys are making irrational associations that are undermining it for yourselves.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-06-2007, 09:18 PM
Isn't it kind of poetic that Vader screams "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" the way Luke does in ESB? I think that was the intent.You know, he also says it in ROTJ before he goes medieval on Vader. Perhaps it is a family trait.

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 09:21 PM
You know, he also says it in ROTJ before he goes medieval on Vader. Perhaps it is a family trait.

Actually he yells "NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :D

Mad Slanted Powers
12-06-2007, 10:22 PM
Actually he yells "NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :DHmm. You are correct. First I looked in the Annotated Screenplays to check, and it said "No!", so I looked at the DVD and it does sound like "Never."

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 10:38 PM
We can probably thank Mark Hamill's improvisational acting skills for that one. He probably said to George, "Ah man, do I have to yell this line again?"

bigbarada
12-06-2007, 11:11 PM
We can probably thank Mark Hamill's improvisational acting skills for that one. He probably said to George, "Ah man, do I have to yell this line again?"

I doubt George was even on set that day.

I know they had David Prowse recite a false line because he wasn't even in on the secret. Either "Obi-Wan was your father" or "Obi-Wan killed your father." Maybe both.

decadentdave
12-06-2007, 11:15 PM
I was making a joke. Thought you guys would see the humor like you do with the Vader scene in ROTS. lol

stillakid
12-07-2007, 12:17 AM
Those of us who can appreciate film and can draw the inference find it to be .... to the context of the scene.


Well, those of US who actually appreciate film AND STORY see exactly what George was trying to do and recognize that A) it doesn't work and B) detracts from the film and saga overall. If we didn't appreciate film and storytelling, we'd be happy with bright shiny objects that flash across the screen.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-07-2007, 12:35 AM
Well, those of US who actually appreciate film AND STORY see exactly what George was trying to do and recognize that A) it doesn't work and B) detracts from the film and saga overall. If we didn't appreciate film and storytelling, we'd be happy with bright shiny objects that flash across the screen.Why doesn't it work, and how does it detract from the saga? He made a reference to Frankenstein. That's consistent with Lucas making other references to old movies. Frankenstein's monster was brought to life by reanimating a being cobbled together from parts of the dead. Anakin was near death and was saved by adding mechanical parts. Palpatine is the mad scientist here. Vader's reaction is perfectly natural. He may have lashed out at Padmé, but he still cares about her, thus his concern. When he learns that she is dead and that he was responsible, we see this incredible surge of emotion that results in him busting loose and destroying droids through the Force. Why wouldn't he react like that?

plasticfetish
12-07-2007, 02:45 AM
Why doesn't it work, and how does it detract from the saga?I can't believe that anyone is really debating the whole Vader as Frankenstein thing. Even as a kid I got the reference to Vader as a Frankenstein-esque monster, back when I first watched ANH. When Lucas makes the reference in ROTS, at worst he’s guilty of being too obvious perhaps, but it’s still completely appropriate for a Star Wars film... which have always always displayed a less than subtle undertone of cheese and b-movie inspiration.

More to the point though, Hayden as Vader is the least of the PTs worries. Assuming that I've always been cool with the idea of Hayden as Anakin (which I'm not really cool with), I can easily see why they put him in the suit. I mean, seeing as how movies are all about creating the illusion of a reality that doesn't truly exist, why not push the whole thing as far as you can, and at least try to have a little fun with the process.

jedi master sal
12-07-2007, 09:01 AM
Ok, enough is enough.

I've read over several threads a flame war between Stillakid and DecadentDave.

I've received no less than THREE complaints regarding both.

This ends here. BOTH of your posts will be deleted if it continues and not just in this thread. If both of you persist, then I'll do a clearancehouse on all those affected threads of your posts.

It doesn't matter who started it or ended it this time or any other time.

We simply cannot allow this to continue.

When I have multiple forumites complaining, something has to be done.

This is your ONLY warning. Both of you end this flaming in ALL threads or your posts will be gone.

I am doing this publicly for the benefit of those who e-mailed me with their concerns so they can see as well that you have both been warned.

Have fun, but play nice. This is supposed to be a kid friendly board. If you've got issues with each other, take them to PM.

Droid
12-07-2007, 09:37 AM
Assuming that it is OK to keep discussing the topic, in the commentary for ROTS, Lucas says this during the "Frankenstein" scene:

"I wanted him to get a sense that he was like a Frankenstein monster that had been created when he came off the table without making it too obvious, but at least give that sensation that the Emperor has created some kind of monster and that Anakin has actually become a monster, not only physically, but also in soul."

To which I respond:

1. I don't think it was very subtle and I think it was too obvious. The only
way it could have been less subtle would have been if the Emperor had
yelled, "It's alive! It's ALIVE!"

2. I now believe that Lucas wasn't playing it for humor; he often says in the
commentaries when he was making a funny little joke.

3. It is more sad that people found it funny when Lucas didn't intend it to
be so. There were times when I saw ROTS in the theater when people
laughed both when he came off the table and when he yelled "NOOOOO."

4. I assume that when Lucas said he wanted "him" to get the sense he had
become Frankenstein he meant the audience and not Anakin as
Anakin probably hadn't read Frankenstein or seen the movie since they
had yet to be written or filmed "a long time ago." I also think Anakin
was probably in too much physical and emotional pain at that moment to
get the irony of the similarities to Frankenstein.

plasticfetish
12-07-2007, 06:22 PM
I don't think it was very subtle and I think it was too obvious. The only way it could have been less subtle would have been if the Emperor had yelled, "It's alive! It's ALIVE!""It's alive" would have been funny actually. He ends up saying something similar... something that his character would say anyway.


I now believe that Lucas wasn't playing it for humor; he often says in the commentaries when he was making a funny little joke.No, it obviously isn't a funny movie, and the scene is meant to be the big emotional payoff for the entire saga, so it's a pretty good bet that Lucas wasn't trying to slip a joke in at that point.

I think the real problem, is that after decades of emotional build up for the audience and fans, there's really nothing that could have completely satisfied us from that scene. There are so many preconceived ideas floating around about what Star Wars is, how these characters should act, and how these events should have happened, that anything would seem strange... or a bit off.


It is more sad that people found it funny when Lucas didn't intend it to be so.I agree. But a lot of people were also going to see that film knowing that the scene was coming up, knowing what was going to happen, and knowing before they bought their ticket, that they were going to hate it.

The biggest problem with that scene, is that Lucas just isn't the kind of director for the kind of mood that he was trying to project. He's not the "scary intense" kind of director, he's the "yippieeeee!" kind of director.


I assume that when Lucas said he wanted "him" to get the sense he had become Frankenstein he meant the audience and not AnakinWell, I think your taking him too literally. He meant that he wanted the character to feel like he'd become a monster. In this case, a Frankenstein "like" monster.

For the record, I love the old Frankenstein movie, and actually think the motif is pretty much perfect here. Frankenstein had his moment where he remembers what it's like to be a human, sees that he'll never be that thing again, and then sacrifices himself to atone for his crimes as a monster.

Seems to work for Vader I'd say, it's just that Lucas wasn't entirely able to pull the thing off as well as some (many) fans would have liked.

(Nice having a pleasant conversation with you BTW Droid.)

plasticfetish
12-07-2007, 06:26 PM
OK. Using Mod voice now...

I'm going to save Sal the trouble, and delete all posts that have nothing to do with the topic.

Sorry, and thanks for flying Trans World Airlines.

Droid
12-07-2007, 06:57 PM
(Nice having a pleasant conversation with you BTW Droid.)

Yes, nice having a pleasant conversation with you also.

JediTricks
12-08-2007, 12:22 AM
If they wanted to make a point of letting someone actually be in the costume, maybe they could have found a scene to let Kenny Baker play R2. Better yet, stop having R2 fly and then maybe you don't need to computer animate R2 anyway. :upset:YAY! Great post, that is spot-on!


And can anyone point me to ANY source that confirms James Earl Jones did Vader's voice? He didn't sound right to me and I can't find anywhere that actually states it was him.JEJ was trying to capture the inflections in Hayden's stupid voice, and JEJ's 20 years older than the last time he did cinematic Vader (everybody said Vader sounded different in his new lines in the ESB SE too, but again it was him).



And if you had been cast as Anakin, I am sure you would have been in Lucas' earhole to don the mask. I know I would have been.

Don't lie!Yeah, because my ego-stroke would be far more important than the artistic integrity of the project.



As for the dialogue issues, if you suddenly woke up as a cyborg, you'd be a bit incoherrent trying to adjust to your new situation as well. And apparently it caused him to finally hit puberty and have his nads drop, with his voice deepen by 6 octaves.

BTW, I'd just yell "aaaaugghhh!!!" (not in a Charlie Brown way).



I never thought the Frankenstein ROTS scene was meant to be humorous, it was just so ineptly put together and conceived of that it came off that way. The problem with the scene is that Vader is slapped together without any real context, the parts merely appear in droid hands and go on angry hayden's burned up body, then he lumbers about, but the true "building" of Vader, why Palps would think this necessary when just before he sent Ani to Mustafar he seemed to feel his apprentice would be whole on his return, it's all missing and so you have ONLY this thin Frankenstein statement that's from a cheesy 1930s horror film to fall back on instead of a piece of societal mythos buried so deep in our psyches that we could do nothing more than giggle. It's empty and hollow and Lucas was lazy with his statement, he didn't use something more primordial and deeply rooted, nor did he stretch it out with dialogue, so it came back and bit him and the audience in the backside with a marked lack of payoff.

El Chuxter
12-08-2007, 01:24 AM
Yet another bad choice. It's an overreaching homage, much like the stupid Tarzan yell in ROTJ.

For all the rest of its flaws, had ROTS not made this scene into a joke, intentionally or not, it might have worked and saved the prequel trilogy.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-08-2007, 01:48 AM
Yet another bad choice. It's an overreaching homage, much like the stupid Tarzan yell in ROTJ.I think they put one of those in ROTS as well, one of the Wookiees going after a Separatist vehicle I think.

JediTricks
12-08-2007, 02:06 AM
I think they put one of those in ROTS as well, one of the Wookiees going after a Separatist vehicle I think.
Yeah, but doesn't that make it an callback to ROTJ?

Mad Slanted Powers
12-08-2007, 02:17 AM
Yeah, but doesn't that make it an callback to ROTJ?
I don't know. It makes it a Wookiee swinging into battle, yelling like a nut.

JediTricks
12-08-2007, 02:24 AM
I don't know. It makes it a Wookiee swinging into battle, yelling like a nut.
Wookiees would make terrible ninjas.

And thus, a new internet meme was born.

decadentdave
12-08-2007, 02:55 AM
They put the Wilhelm scream in every film. I guess everybody can apparently scream like Wilhelm or something when they get offed. Doesn't that just take you out of it? Yep, there's that token Wilhelm scream again. Oy.

El Chuxter
12-08-2007, 03:12 AM
The Wilhelm isn't referencing an old serial that has completely embedded itself in the consciousness of the public. It's just a common sound. Chewie yelling like Tarzan is like Han saying "Up, up, and away!" Or Luke shouting, "Hi ho, Silver!" when riding his Tauntaun.

decadentdave
12-08-2007, 03:17 AM
The Wilhelm was taken from those old serials. Now whenever I hear it I find it too destracting and annoying. It was fun like the first dozen times I heard it, now it's been used to death. I think I might kill somebody if I hear it again.

El Chuxter
12-08-2007, 03:28 AM
My point isn't that the Wilhelm is something brand new. It's merely that it's not something that a cannibal in the deepest, darkest part of the Congo, who's never encountered western society, will recognize and be able to identify.

The use of a Wilhelm is akin to the use of the wipes and fades, or the presence of 1138 in all the movies. It's a subtle homage or in-joke. It's not beating you over the head with something that people are almost born knowing.

Go up to Joe Schmoe and play audio of a Wilhelm. Chances are he won't recognize it as anything but a scream. Even if it sounds vaguely familiar, most people won't know where it comes from. But play "Aaaaa-aaaaaaaaahaaaaa-aaaaaaaaahaaaaaaa!" and they'll immediately say, "Tarzan."

There are heavy-handed real world references that cease to be fun and break the flow of the narrative. I can't think of any off-hand from ANH or ESB. In ROTJ, you have the Tarzan yell. In TPM, there's "Are you brain dead?" AOTC has a stupid reference to Indiana Jones, poor use of dialogue lifted from Shakespeare, and even a ridiculous reference back to the Stormtrooper banging his head in ANH. (Seriously, George, are we supposed to believe your assertion that all the Stormtroopers are genetically flawed and will hit their heads?) ROTS has the Frankenstein scene.

They're all just too familiar. We're not dealing with archetypes here. We're dealing with full-on swipes. Swipes work only in farces. Airplane! can swipe without harming the story (okay, what story there is--great movie, but essentially a bunch of gags strung together) at all. Star Wars can't get away with that.

2-1B
12-08-2007, 03:41 AM
The Wilhelm isn't referencing an old serial that has completely embedded itself in the consciousness of the public. It's just a common sound. Chewie yelling like Tarzan is like Han saying "Up, up, and away!" Or Luke shouting, "Hi ho, Silver!" when riding his Tauntaun.

or 2-1B singing "I'm Bringing Sexy Back"

El Chuxter
12-08-2007, 04:04 AM
Well, that goes without saying. Whenever sexy leaves, it's up to The Deuce to bring it back.

decadentdave
12-08-2007, 08:54 AM
My point isn't that the Wilhelm is something brand new. It's merely that it's not something that a cannibal in the deepest, darkest part of the Congo, who's never encountered western society, will recognize and be able to identify.

The use of a Wilhelm is akin to the use of the wipes and fades, or the presence of 1138 in all the movies. It's a subtle homage or in-joke. It's not beating you over the head with something that people are almost born knowing.

Go up to Joe Schmoe and play audio of a Wilhelm. Chances are he won't recognize it as anything but a scream. Even if it sounds vaguely familiar, most people won't know where it comes from. But play "Aaaaa-aaaaaaaaahaaaaa-aaaaaaaaahaaaaaaa!" and they'll immediately say, "Tarzan."

There are heavy-handed real world references that cease to be fun and break the flow of the narrative. I can't think of any off-hand from ANH or ESB. In ROTJ, you have the Tarzan yell. In TPM, there's "Are you brain dead?" AOTC has a stupid reference to Indiana Jones, poor use of dialogue lifted from Shakespeare, and even a ridiculous reference back to the Stormtrooper banging his head in ANH. (Seriously, George, are we supposed to believe your assertion that all the Stormtroopers are genetically flawed and will hit their heads?) ROTS has the Frankenstein scene.

They're all just too familiar. We're not dealing with archetypes here. We're dealing with full-on swipes. Swipes work only in farces. Airplane! can swipe without harming the story (okay, what story there is--great movie, but essentially a bunch of gags strung together) at all. Star Wars can't get away with that.

Just watched an old western last night that had full-on wipes just like Star Wars. That was the norm for serials. Star Wars can do wipes. I always thought the vertical wipe where Ben and Luke lift up Threepio and his torso is cut in half by the wipe was one of the most effective I've ever seen.

As for the Wilhelm, I've heard other people say when they watch movies that the scream is familiar, that they've heard it before. When I tell them that it has been used in every Star Wars film and numerous others they go "Oh yeah. I think that's where I've heard it." Point is it's now become engrained into the cultural subconsciousness and has become overkill. It may have been a humorous inside joke once or a homage but it has now gone to beating us over the head. Yeah, it's the Wilhem scream. It's from that old 30's film stuntman. We get it.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-08-2007, 12:44 PM
Since I've never actually seen the old Frankenstein movie, did he actually scream "NOOOOOO!"? The "It's Alive!" line would have been more recognizable to me. I could see a problem if that had been used. Before the movie had been released, I had read that Lucas had said that Vader's creation would be an homage to some old film. When that scene came, I did make a connection to Frankenstein, perhaps even when I saw the trailer. The way he says, "NO" does have a bit of a weird sound to it, but other than that, it doesn't feel out of place. It doesn't seem out of character either, because this is when he first wears the suit. At first he still seems a bit like Anakin with his concern for Padmé, but then you see his rage. That ties in with what he is doing when we first see him in ANH. He is choking a rebel, and then starts yelling commands in an angry tone.

plasticfetish
12-08-2007, 01:07 PM
Yeah, it's the Wilhem scream. It's from that old 30's film stuntman. We get it....or '50s voice actor. (Same difference. ;))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_scream


Since I've never actually seen the old Frankenstein movieMmmm. Let's just stop right here. You should maybe see the film... at least once.

Droid
12-08-2007, 03:45 PM
Deleted due to double post.

Droid
12-08-2007, 03:46 PM
There are heavy-handed real world references that cease to be fun and break the flow of the narrative. I can't think of any off-hand from ANH or ESB. In ROTJ, you have the Tarzan yell. In TPM, there's "Are you brain dead?" AOTC has a stupid reference to Indiana Jones, poor use of dialogue lifted from Shakespeare, and even a ridiculous reference back to the Stormtrooper banging his head in ANH. (Seriously, George, are we supposed to believe your assertion that all the Stormtroopers are genetically flawed and will hit their heads?) ROTS has the Frankenstein scene.


That Tarzan in ROTJ comment is great. I was trying really hard to see if there was anything as heavy-handed and inappropriate in the OT and that is a good example. It shouldn't have been in there. See, I can find flaws in both trilogies.

I hated "sitting ducks" in TPM, "exsqueeze me" in TPM, "not good" in TPM and AOTC and "good call" in AOTC when Anakin correctly tells a clone how to take down the Trade Federation thing.

How did they cite Indiana Jones in AOTC?

El Chuxter
12-08-2007, 10:50 PM
Jango shooting Trebor Coleman is a bad rehash of the Indy vs the Egyptian swordsman scene. It's poorly done, and I wouldn't even have caught it had I not read about it somewhere official.

JediTricks
12-09-2007, 02:33 AM
The Wilhelm isn't referencing an old serial that has completely embedded itself in the consciousness of the public. It's just a common sound. Chewie yelling like Tarzan is like Han saying "Up, up, and away!" Or Luke shouting, "Hi ho, Silver!" when riding his Tauntaun.Chux for the win!


Star Wars is what made the wilhelm famous, so it's not a flaw for Star Wars to use it, that's like saying ESB is cliched because it contains the line "Luke [...] I am your father!"



I hated "sitting ducks" in TPM, "exsqueeze me" in TPM, "not good" in TPM and AOTC and "good call" in AOTC when Anakin correctly tells a clone how to take down the Trade Federation thing.You forgot "how wude!" and "this party's over!" and the casting of Sam Jackson at all. F**king prequels.

decadentdave
12-09-2007, 02:48 AM
Chux for the win!

Wrong. I was talking about how the Wilhelm has embedded itself in the subconscious of pop culture BECAUSE of Star Wars. I'm just sick of it being used in every film and when I watch any Star Wars film it completely takes me out of it. Even when I watched the originals in the theater I noticed that scream was used in each film before I even knew who the hell Wilhelm was. That sound should be prohibited from being used in any film again. It's worse than the Tarzan cry.



Star Wars is what made the wilhelm famous, so it's not a flaw for Star Wars to use it, that's like saying ESB is cliched because it contains the line "Luke [...] I am your father!"
But it's not used in every movie like the Wilhelm is. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-09-2007, 12:57 PM
I like apples AND oranges. I don't really notice the scream. There is so much noise with the lasers and explosions that a scream doesn't really stand out as anything other than the appropriate response for someone falling of a ledge into a chasm.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-09-2007, 01:18 PM
Jango shooting Trebor Coleman is a bad rehash of the Indy vs the Egyptian swordsman scene. It's poorly done, and I wouldn't even have caught it had I not read about it somewhere official.
Where did you read this?

2-1B
12-09-2007, 04:18 PM
somewhere official.

bigbarada
12-09-2007, 05:04 PM
I hated "sitting ducks" in TPM,

I wonder if that was a reference to the ANH novelization where Ben mentions a duck for some reason and Luke asks, "What's a duck?" Ben simply responds with "Nevermind." Even as a kid, I thought that was lame.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-09-2007, 05:26 PM
somewhere official.
I should've known.

There were ducks in TPM, for the record.

2-1B
12-09-2007, 05:34 PM
I wonder if that was a reference to the ANH novelization where Ben mentions a duck for some reason and Luke asks, "What's a duck?" Ben simply responds with "Nevermind." Even as a kid, I thought that was lame.

Was it a "lame duck" ? lol