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stillakid
12-14-2007, 08:31 AM
In ROTS, Palps takes a rebound hit of his own Force Lightning and within seconds, his face becomes deformed to a point where only his money and power will be his only tools to get some tail.

But in ROTJ, Luke takes several minutes of direct Force Lightning and comes out of it with nary a scratch.

What gives? Were improvements made to Force Lightning in the years between ROTS and ROTJ? :confused:

Devo
12-14-2007, 10:27 AM
Yet another inconsistency between the trilogies :rolleyes:

Although in fairness I think what happened in ROTS would be the more likely outcome of sustained force lightning to the face. But they couldn't mess with Mark Hamills face again...people were confused enough at his difference of appearance between ANH and ESB!

El Chuxter
12-14-2007, 10:44 AM
'Cause Luke has more true midichorions. The Emperor is powerful, but he's been buying secondhand midichlorions at the Salvation Army.

2-1B
12-14-2007, 11:10 AM
Mark Hamill was already more fugly than Emperor Wrinklatine so the force-lightning didn't have any detrimental effect.

But really, it's not an inconsistency between the trilogies, because Mace didn't get disfigured either.

Then again, there is an upcoming EU Retcon which explains how a Force-lightning disfigured Mace Windu fell safely into a passing speeder while falling out of Palps' window...he later took work on Jabba's skiff under the alias Weequay.

stillakid
12-14-2007, 11:13 AM
Mark Hamill was already more fugly than Emperor Wrinklatine so the force-lightning didn't have any detrimental effect.

But really, it's not an inconsistency between the trilogies, because Mace didn't get disfigured either.

Then again, there is an upcoming EU Retcon which explains how a Force-lightning disfigured Mace Windu fell safely into a passing speeder while falling out of Palps' window...he later took work on Jabba's skiff under the alias Weequay.

Was he in that infamous Boba Fett wedding too?

Beast
12-14-2007, 11:15 AM
There's no inconsistency. Palpatine's face was disfigured by close-proximaty full power force-lightning rebounding off of Mace's lightsaber. It directly struck his face, causing the damage to Palpy's features. Where as in the case of Luke, it flowed all over his body. And as you can see by Palpy's dialogue (and the effects), was meant to torture not immediatly kill. "Now young Skywalker, you will die." And wasn't rebounded/directed at any specific area. Though the novels that take place after RotJ do note that Luke's skeleton was effected by the force-lightning.

Not to mention, further evidence points to the fact that that was Palpatine's true appearance anyway. Given that Palpatine also had yellow bloodshot eyes, rotten teeth, and dirty fingernails after being attacked by Mace. Much like with Vader, his body was aged horribly by the years of drawing on the Dark Side of the Force. And he was concealing his true appearance until it was no longer necessary. And actually served to further his agenda to destroy the Jedi and take over the Republic.

El Chuxter
12-14-2007, 11:24 AM
In the words of the MST3K theme song:

"If you wonder how they eat and breathe, and other science facts
Then say to yourself, 'It's just a show. I should really just relax.'"

stillakid
12-14-2007, 11:53 AM
There's no inconsistency. Palpatine's face was disfigured by close-proximaty full power force-lightning rebounding off of Mace's lightsaber. It directly struck his face, causing the damage to Palpy's features. Where as in the case of Luke, it flowed all over his body. And as you can see by Palpy's dialogue (and the effects), was meant to torture not immediatly kill. "Now young Skywalker, you will die." And wasn't rebounded/directed at any specific area.
Riiiight.


Though the novels that take place after RotJ do note that Luke's skeleton was effected by the force-lightning.
I must've missed that memo.


Not to mention, further evidence points to the fact that that was Palpatine's true appearance anyway. Given that Palpatine also had yellow bloodshot eyes, rotten teeth, and dirty fingernails after being attacked by Mace. Much like with Vader, his body was aged horribly by the years of drawing on the Dark Side of the Force. And he was concealing his true appearance until it was no longer necessary. And actually served to further his agenda to destroy the Jedi and take over the Republic.
What?! Further evidence? We see that Palps in one way then gets hit with lightning then is another way. How on Earth (Coruscant) do you get from what we see to turning Palpatine into some kind of shape shifter?

Seriously, is there no end to the powers of rationalization? It seems to be a power greater than even the Force itself, for it can explain the Force!

The FACT is, there is NO evidence that Palpatine ever used the Force until we see him throw some lightning around. He claims to be a Sith, but has used no power. He insinuates that he knows that power to create life (which is the bait he uses to turn Whine-akin) but then immediately recants his claim. And his coup is carried out, not by use of the Force, but by simple political influence. What we actually SEE in the Prequels is a guy who is bent on taking over and manages to trick everyone while using absolutely no Force power at all. He suckers magicians like Maul, Dooku, and Skywalker into doing his dirty work for him while he tinkers with some minor parlor tricks, like undoing handcuffs and throwing lightning.

What we KNOW is that Palps is a normal looking guy who becomes disfigured after being hit with his own lightning. How that suggests Palps as a shape shifter is a HUGE stretch worthy of the Bush Administration.

El Chuxter
12-14-2007, 11:56 AM
The Truce at Bakura is the only novel that mentions the skeleton thing, and it only says he runs a risk of his bones being calcified and brittle as a result of being in a high-energy field. Unless he gets it treated, which he, of course, does.

I didn't think the "melting" was necessary. I can see that he's aging rapidly through the prequels, so him looking like Sophia Petrillo with bad teeth isn't a stretch after another 20 years.

Beast
12-14-2007, 01:40 PM
Who said Palpatine is a shapeshifter?

Nice way of taking pretty much everything that I said out of context. Not that it's a surprise, given you do that with everything. What are you, a Republican?

I said that there is some evidence in the associated materials that Palpatine was concealing his true visage before he was attacked by Mace. And that afterwards, used his true appearance to garner sympathy and use it against the Jedi.

And it's absurd in the extreme for you to claim that there was no proof he was a Sith until he started throwing lightning around in RoTS. The guy trained both Maul and Dooku in the Sith arts for cripes sake. Just because he doesn't personally choose to get his hands dirty in most cases, doesn't mean he's not a Sith.

stillakid
12-14-2007, 02:27 PM
Who said Palpatine is a shapeshifter?
Uh, the answer to that would be "you." Allow me to elaborate:


further evidence points to the fact that that was Palpatine's true appearance anyway. ... And he was concealing his true appearance until it was no longer necessary.

While you don't use the words "shape shifter," you pretty much use the definition. Unless you meant something else by that above description?



Nice way of taking pretty much everything that I said out of context. Not that it's a surprise, given you do that with everything. What are you, a Republican?
Well, no, I'm not a registered Republican and I can't really recall ever voting for one. Not sure what that has to do with anything here, but I'm happy to play along. :)

And I took nothing "out of context." Please elaborate on the specific passages that I took out of context and then we can discuss them on a point by point basis. :)


I said that there is some evidence in the associated materials that Palpatine was concealing his true visage before he was attacked by Mace. And that afterwards, used his true appearance to garner sympathy and use it against the Jedi.
And that differs from someone being able to "shift their shape" exactly how? Does Palpatine have a groovy Mission Impossible mask he wears when Tom Cruise doesn't need it?



And it's absurd in the extreme for you to claim that there was no proof he was a Sith until he started throwing lightning around in RoTS. The guy trained both Maul and Dooku in the Sith arts for cripes sake. Just because he doesn't personally choose to get his hands dirty in most cases, doesn't mean he's not a Sith.
Show me direct proof in the Prequels, particularly prior to him throwing Force Lightning around, that he is a Force user. Then we'll talk some more. I'll be anxiously awaiting. :yes:

JediTricks
12-14-2007, 03:04 PM
The "true face" thing sucks, it's a bad call and Lucas should never have let that out the barn. If you want to explain the discrepancy, perhaps Palps drained himself trying to push Mace away and the Dark Side was eating away at his body to do this. That'd also explain why his hands got all frail, not just his face.

Or you could just say that the prequels didn't match up to the OT in timeline here either.

2-1B
12-15-2007, 05:40 PM
I didn't think the "melting" was necessary. I can see that he's aging rapidly through the prequels, so him looking like Sophia Petrillo with bad teeth isn't a stretch after another 20 years.

Love me some Golden Girls quotes, keep it up good Sir. :thumbsup:

Mad Slanted Powers
12-16-2007, 01:03 AM
Who said Palpatine is a shapeshifter?

Nice way of taking pretty much everything that I said out of context. Not that it's a surprise, given you do that with everything. What are you, a Republican? No, I'm the Republican here. Well, I tend to vote for them anyway.


I said that there is some evidence in the associated materials that Palpatine was concealing his true visage before he was attacked by Mace. And that afterwards, used his true appearance to garner sympathy and use it against the Jedi.I've heard about the true appearance thing as well. I don't think it is necessarily shape shifting. Just using the Force to keep your body from showing its age. At that point in ROTS, looking deformed served his purpose. The lightning and the energy he had to use to fight it off took away from the energy he had been using to sustain his (relatively) youthful appearance. I think your previous argument about the different situations for Luke and Palpatine is a good point as well. In the end, we can't be sure that all Force lightning attacks are the same, or that they will have the same effects on everyone.


And it's absurd in the extreme for you to claim that there was no proof he was a Sith until he started throwing lightning around in RoTS. The guy trained both Maul and Dooku in the Sith arts for cripes sake. Just because he doesn't personally choose to get his hands dirty in most cases, doesn't mean he's not a Sith.Indeed. Yoda says the Dark Side clouds everything. Who exactly is clouding everything with the Dark Side? He's able to use Force lightning to defeat Mace Windu. We don't know if he was truly beaten in the saber duel or if he intentionally lost because Anakin was coming, or that he could beat him with the Force lightning anyway. Later, he duels Yoda pretty much to a stalemate, winning due to having the "high ground".

stillakid
12-16-2007, 07:50 AM
\
Indeed. Yoda says the Dark Side clouds everything. Who exactly is clouding everything with the Dark Side?

So, Beast assumes that Palps is a Sith but that also doesn't make it so. Yoda says that line in response to the inference that there IS a Sith lurking about. Because the Jedi can't sense a Sith, Yoda tosses out a bumper sticker saying to validate why they can't bases on the assumption that the existence of a Sith is true.

What that ignores is the other very real possibility that Palpatine isn't a Sith at all and is nothing more than a shrewd politician. In fact, his Cirque du Soleil tale about creating life is clearly meant to make the audience (us) and Hayd-akin believe that he (Palps) has the secret to the power and therefore must be a Sith. BUT later on in the movie, he recants that inference thereby negating any "proof" that he must be a Sith.

Palps clearly has had this coup idea in mind for quite a while. So, being as smart as he is, he would know that if he actually USED Force powers, or even had them, that he would put himself at risk of being discovered by the Jedi. Sooo, he instead gets bad guys to do his dirty work for him and only dabbles in enough "Jedi stuff" that is necessary until the takeover when it isn't necessary to hide anymore.

Then we're back to square one having seen absolutely no evidence that he is a powerful Sith Lord who can cloud everything.

What about the lightsaber thing when he kills Mace's cohorts? Having lightsaber doesn't prove that he is a powerful Sith. That little kid on the gantryway (when Bail comes to the Jedi Temple) had better moves than Palps. We can chalk Palp's killing of the Jedi to dumb luck and/or story convenience.

And the lightning? Again, who's to say that that is a special "Sith power." Dooku could do it, but we see more evidence of him (and Maul) having Jedi power than Palps ever does throughout six movies.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-16-2007, 10:06 AM
Dooku could do it, and he was once a Jedi. So, it appears to be a Force power, whether it is light side or dark side doesn't matter. So, if it is a Force power, and Palpatine can do it, then he is a Force user. Maybe he isn't as powerful of a Force user as people make him out to be, but his shrewdness helps position him to be able to use it most effectively.

stillakid
12-16-2007, 10:54 AM
Dooku could do it, and he was once a Jedi. So, it appears to be a Force power, whether it is light side or dark side doesn't matter. So, if it is a Force power, and Palpatine can do it, then he is a Force user. Maybe he isn't as powerful of a Force user as people make him out to be, but his shrewdness helps position him to be able to use it most effectively.


Yes, that's what I'm saying too. The basic gist is this... a young Palpatine decides for some reason that he wants to take over the galaxy. He looks the situation over and knows that he needs to do two things. The first is become a shrewd politician, someone capable of subtle influence in his favor in such a way that could affect a coup. The second is to bring down the Jedi, the guardians of peace and justice blah blah blah. The political thing is easy. Politicians of all kinds are susceptible to influence if there is something in it for them. The Jedi thing is different. They are wizards, who not only can do superhuman(alien) things, but they also can sense when another Force user is around and doing his thing (like ripples in a pond).

So, Palps being the wise person he is, recruits an attack dog who is capable of amazing Force ability. Using his powers of political subtlety and promises of acting work, Palps dubs this new guy "Darth Maul" and has him do the dirty work thereby having Maul "ripple the Force pond" instead.

Palps may dabble a bit just to start practicing, but he knows that if he does too much, the Jedi will sense him especially since he knows he'll have to be around them while he takes over the Senate.

Of course Maul dies unexpectedly, but Palps has already recruited an ambitious Jedi named Dooku to take over. Dooku is also adept in the Force and he is also intelligent, not the pit bull that Maul was.

Dooku is found out and must fight for himself. In the meantime, Palps has no loyalty and discovers a new, even more potentially powerful person to be his muscle for his new Empire: Anakin Skywalker. Dooku serves his purpose (set up the Civil War) and Palps lets him die while simultaneously recruits his new pit bull.

And so far in the story, now very deep into the Prequels, Palpatine still has never used the Force and more importantly, hasn't had to.

That he could do all of that and never use the Force makes him an even more dangerous foe as he doesn't have to rely on magic to get what he wants. He took care of the politics all by himself with no Force necessary. He used Maul, Dooku, and Skywalker to take care of the Jedi.

Palpatine is worse than a "magic" Sith. He's diabolical just being... human. And if a mere human is capable of such evil, it is ever more frightening.



--------------------

And back to the story, by the time of ROTS, Palpatine has dabbled enough in the dark arts to do a little bit... but like a young Luke Skywalker on Dagobah, Palps has no control. He can do it, but not well. He flails his lightsaber around and gets lucky. He throws lightning around but, as we see even in ROTJ, he can't control it very well. He is a child with a new toy and doesn't care to read the manual. Why should he? He has bad guys to do it all the heavy lifting for him.

So, he gets confronted by Mace, loses his lightsaber, and uses the only other parlor trick he's got. The lightning starts flying, but he doesn't count on the boomerang effect. The blue sparks hit the guy and he is permanently disfigured by it.

Later on, in ROTJ, he tries the lightning trick again, but doesn't have the control to stop it when Vader unexpectedly grabs him.

Palps never got beyond the basic training... it is the warning that Yoda gave to Luke on Dagobah. Having the power is one thing. Knowing how to control it is something else. Palps may have been a Sith in name, but he never was a true master of the Force. He didn't have to be.

2-1B
12-16-2007, 11:27 AM
If Palps never got past the basic training, Yoda would have iced him in the Senate Pod battle.

stillakid
12-16-2007, 11:48 AM
If Palps never got past the basic training, Yoda would have iced him in the Senate Pod battle.

Who ever said that Yoda was anything to call home about? :o

And from what I recall, Yoda didn't really do so well. The little goblin spent most of his time dodging falling pods.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-16-2007, 01:38 PM
Yoda was able to stop Dooku's Force lightning with his hand. Yoda could stop falling objects from falling on him. He could lift X-Wings out of swamps, something the novice Luke couldn't do. He displayed some pretty good skills with the lightsaber versus Dooku and Palpatine, as well as outside the Jedi Temple.

If Palpatine is not a Sith, who trained Maul? Why would Maul or Dooku call him Master? Why would Vader, who thought he could overthrow the Emperor in ROTS, not be able to do so in the 20+ years between ROTS and ROTJ? Why would he tell Luke that the Emperor would show Luke the true nature of the Force? Is the true nature of the Force just a few parlor tricks and being angry when you use the Force?

DarthBrandon
12-16-2007, 02:39 PM
I really can't believe you all got dragged into another one of stillakid's crazy threads.:D This stuff is priceless & could go on till the end of time.

Beast
12-16-2007, 02:44 PM
I really can't believe you all got dragged into another one of stillakid's crazy threads.:D This stuff is priceless & could go on till the end of time.
I thought a nice Christmas present for him, would be to indulge him.

DarthBrandon
12-16-2007, 02:50 PM
I thought a nice Christmas present for him, would be to indulge him.

lol, Too funny, it's nice to see that you are in the Christmas spirit Beast.:D
You'd better give him his new years present as well, just in case you don't talk to him on New Years day.lol

stillakid
12-16-2007, 04:41 PM
Yoda was able to stop Dooku's Force lightning with his hand. Yoda could stop falling objects from falling on him. He could lift X-Wings out of swamps, something the novice Luke couldn't do. He displayed some pretty good skills with the lightsaber versus Dooku and Palpatine, as well as outside the Jedi Temple.

All true. But he still couldn't defeat Palpatine. Hey, I didn't write it.


If Palpatine is not a Sith, who trained Maul? How should I know? The Prequel story doesn't tell us much about that character at all.


Why would Maul or Dooku call him Master? Cuz Palps is in charge.


Why would Vader, who thought he could overthrow the Emperor in ROTS, not be able to do so in the 20+ years between ROTS and ROTJ? He had no reason to. If we are to believe the Prequels, Whine-akin's initial motivation was to fix the government. That's the kind of thing that Padme cringed about. Of course Whine-akin's motivation for going dark became all about saving Padme's life, which he of course couldn't learn the secret of because Palp's didn't have it. And of course, Bi-Polar-akin tried to choke the babe to death on his own.

So anyway, the point is that after all of that nonsense in AOTC and ROTS regarding Whine-akin's ever-changing motivations, none of it really existed anymore after he went in the mask. The only reason he even considered turning back to the good side (inklings of it in ESB) was the idea of saving his own son from becoming Palpatine's bit**.


Why would he tell Luke that the Emperor would show Luke the true nature of the Force?
Showing Luke the true nature of the Force doesn't necessarily mean a literal show-and-tell. Palpatine's special talent was in subtle manipulation of the emotions. That's how he got Whine-akin in the first place and that's what he uses to goad Luke in the throne room. Palp's doesn't turn on the magic tricks to impress either Skywalker. The "Dark Side" isn't necessarily about using the Force for evil. The Force is just a tool and Palpatine always had others to wield that one for him.

Again, I didn't write it. That's what's in the movies. Don't shoot the messenger.


Is the true nature of the Force just a few parlor tricks and being angry when you use the Force? I more or less answered this above, but specifically, the nature of the Force itself is just a neutral energy field. Yoda talks eloquently about it in ESB. Like any tool, it's the nature of the USER that determines whether the purpose of the tool will be for good or evil. As said, Palps had pitbulls adept at using that tool (the Force) to do his dirty work for him. He was good at the deception and lies part. He never had to be very good at using the Force himself which ultimately is why he A) looked all shagged out for most of his life and B) couldn't stop Vader from tossing him overboard.

It's all right there. Why am I the only one who can see it? :confused:

DarthBrandon
12-16-2007, 04:52 PM
It's all right there. Why am I the only one who can see it? :confused:

I'm going out on a thin limb here: Possibly because it's your interpretation of the character, fanbase & everything else & not GL's (the creator of S.W.):D

Beast
12-16-2007, 04:58 PM
I'm going out on a thin limb here: Possibly because it's your interpretation of the character & everything else & not GL's (the creator of S.W.):D
Or even the interpretation of the majority of the fanbase.

DarthBrandon
12-16-2007, 05:02 PM
Or even the interpretation of the majority of the fanbase.

Yes, I forgot that one Beast, will have to add it in there.:thumbsup:

El Chuxter
12-16-2007, 05:36 PM
I think Beast and stillakid should Jell-O wrestle to the death.

DarthBrandon
12-16-2007, 05:57 PM
I think Beast and stillakid should Jell-O wrestle to the death.

Well we should start the betting soon then shouldn't we?

Beast
12-16-2007, 06:07 PM
I think Beast and stillakid should Jell-O wrestle to the death.
Oh, like I'm going to fall for that. I'm not fullfilling your sick fantasies!! :p

JediTricks
12-16-2007, 06:14 PM
Oh, like I'm going to fall for that. I'm not fullfilling your sick fantasies!! :p
Not again, anyway.


You ever see Henry Rollins scream out a tune, go super-intense and strain his face till he turns all veiny and bright red and stretched out and his eyes are exploding in their sockets? That's what happened to Palps, only via the dark side, until it stayed that way.

Beast
12-16-2007, 06:17 PM
Not again, anyway.
Shhh!! What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!! :bandit: :whip:


You ever see Henry Rollins scream out a tune, go super-intense and strain his face till he turns all veiny and bright red and stretched out and his eyes are exploding in their sockets? That's what happened to Palps, only via the dark side, until it stayed that way.
"UNLIMITED POWER!!" :D

Mad Slanted Powers
12-16-2007, 06:26 PM
I guess it comes to this for me. Watching the movies, I definitely get the idea that Palpatine is a Sith Lord with Force powers, even if we don't see him demonstrate those abilities much. With both Maul and Dooku out of the picture, who is the source of the Dark Side energy or whatever that the Jedi are still sensing? I think it is logical to conclude that he is a Sith. It's just as logical as assuming that some guy that we never see in a Stormtrooper uniform is a Stormtrooper.

Perhaps the reason Yoda didn't defeat Palpatine is because he actually is a formidable opponent with the Force and with the lightsaber. We have plenty of evidence to suggest that Yoda is powerful. He is on the Jedi Council, and Obi-Wan tells Anakin that if he practiced his lightsaber as much as his wit, he'd rival Master Yoda.

It seems to me you are willing to make logical leaps when it fits your beliefs, but if someone make a similar extrapolation to support the prequels, then it is going through lengthy extremes to put spin on it to make things fit. It's like I said before. We both saw the OT and had certain similar assumptions about what would happen in the prequels based on what was in those films. Something different happened than what we expected. I conclude that our assumptions were wrong, because the evidence on the screen in the PT shows that we were wrong. In most cases, a reasonable, logical explanation reconciles the two trilogies. You see the prequels and simply conclude that they are wrong because they don't fit with what you expected. You say it can't be right because what was in the OT can't possibly be interpreted any other way than what you think it should be, even though the OT itself points out that things can be interpreted differently based on your point of view.

DarthBrandon
12-16-2007, 06:28 PM
Oh, like I'm going to fall for that. I'm not fullfilling your sick fantasies!! :p

You must admit though, it would be pretty funny.lol

stillakid
12-16-2007, 06:44 PM
I guess it comes to this for me. Watching the movies, I definitely get the idea that Palpatine is a Sith Lord with Force powers, even if we don't see him demonstrate those abilities much. With both Maul and Dooku out of the picture, who is the source of the Dark Side energy or whatever that the Jedi are still sensing? I think it is logical to conclude that he is a Sith. It's just as logical as assuming that some guy that we never see in a Stormtrooper uniform is a Stormtrooper.

Perhaps the reason Yoda didn't defeat Palpatine is because he actually is a formidable opponent with the Force and with the lightsaber. We have plenty of evidence to suggest that Yoda is powerful. He is on the Jedi Council, and Obi-Wan tells Anakin that if he practiced his lightsaber as much as his wit, he'd rival Master Yoda.

It seems to me you are willing to make logical leaps when it fits your beliefs, but if someone make a similar extrapolation to support the prequels, then it is going through lengthy extremes to put spin on it to make things fit. It's like I said before. We both saw the OT and had certain similar assumptions about what would happen in the prequels based on what was in those films. Something different happened than what we expected. I conclude that our assumptions were wrong, because the evidence on the screen in the PT shows that we were wrong. In most cases, a reasonable, logical explanation reconciles the two trilogies. You see the prequels and simply conclude that they are wrong because they don't fit with what you expected. You say it can't be right because what was in the OT can't possibly be interpreted any other way than what you think it should be, even though the OT itself points out that things can be interpreted differently based on your point of view.

Well said. :)

I think the key phrase above is "in most cases." I'm not sure I buy that. While we can get hung up in discussing individual elements that "could" be "interpreted" one way or the other, the overall outcome of the Prequels is that they do not conform to the expectations based on the Original Trilogy continuity. Yes, Lucas is the "creator," but that doesn't mean that he automatically is infallible. From what I understand, he has more or less admitted to erring in the creation of the Prequels.

I look at it this way: some people (and some lurk around here adding nothing constructive) choose to accept that the Prequels are perfect in every way and are left having to make those "leaps" in order to make the two trilogies conform to one another. I and MANY others choose to accept the OT continuity as the foundation of what is right and then critique the Prequels based on that point of view. I, for one, don't enjoy having to make excuses for a film in order for it to fit into a larger storyline. I prefer to have it all work together on its own without the need for 11th hour explanations and rationalizations.