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Beast
02-12-2002, 03:07 AM
This thread grew out of a discussion in the episode II action figure forum. Since the beginning, ever since seeing Episode 1 I have seen somthing special in the charecter. Somthing very few others have seen. That he's the thread that helps tie in the prequels with the original trilogy. That's why I took on the name of the charecter, trying to champion the cause of this poor misunderstood charecter.

Look at Episode 1. Without his involvment the jedi's would never have found the gungans, found out the quickest way to the queen, then helped supply the jedi's and the queen with the army they needed to distract the battle droid army so they could sneak into the palace.Without JJB the jedi's might never have reached the queen in time, and even if they did, upon returning to Naboo they would have faced overwhelming numbers and failed anyway.

Now onto Episode II. In the spoiler thread for E2 we know that it's Jar Jar who is responsible for Palpatine's ability to cease emergancy control of the senate. Which leads to the start of the jedi purge in the geonosis arena. Jar Jar himself is the unknowing pawn of palpatine the whole time. He now has emergancy control to make decisions, as well as an army that he controls, and a vastly reduced jedi resistance for stage 3 of his plan.

Episode III. Palpatine begins his rule of dictatorship. He keeps peace with terror and supression of the people with his crack units of clonetroopers who he now has supreme control over. He sometime during the period, starts twisting young anakin to his will. Showing that the jedi's never kept peace as well as he does, and that he could help keep the galaxy lawful. Seeing the jedi's as traitors to palpatine's rule, he turns on them, helping to finish of the rest of them.

Obi-Wan, The rest of the surviving Jedi's, Padme, and Jar Jar see that Anakin has been tricked by Palpatine. Anakin and Obi-Wan meet for their battle and Anakin is presumed deceased. In thruth he lives, now encased in his life sustaning body armor. He returns to coruscant to destory Obi-Wan, Padme, Yoda and the rest. Jar Jar possibly forsakes his own life, when attempting to stall the Anakin so that Padme and Obi-Wan can escape. Probably killed by Anakin his former friend by his own lightsaber, as a final proof of his turn. This whole time has given the pregnant Padme, Obi-Wan and Yoda a chance to escape.

The charecter that was once disliked by a majority of Star Wars fans becomes the key charecter responsible for most of what occurs in the prequal trilogy, as well as bridging the gap to the original trilogy. I am posting a thesis next that was posted around a year after Episode 1 opened that explains more of why JJB is such an important charecter in the whole saga.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
02-12-2002, 03:12 AM
The following thesis was taken from here (http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/movies/jar_jar_holy_fool_000414.html). Lucas is using basic mythological structure for Jar Jar's development. If you look into one of Lucas' favorite obsessions Joseph Campbell, and his writings you see many parrarels. Here is a thesis based on those writings, comparing the two. Just remember this, recall how lucky Jar Jar was in Episode 1. And the fact that Obi-Wan said, he doesn't believe in luck in ANH. :D

Jar Jar, Hidden Jedi? By Chris Aylott

There’s a Jedi lurking in the margins of the Star Wars saga, and he’s not Samuel L. Jackson.

The Force is strong in The Phantom Menace’s most innocent figure -- and if the conventions of mythic storytelling that we know George Lucas follows hold true, the last hope of the Jedi Knights may rest on the CGI shoulders of the much-maligned Jar Jar Binks.

"Wesa in trouble now"

To put it mildly, Binks doesn’t have a good reputation among Star Wars fandom. He lacks everything fans love about the Jedi – their speed and dexterity, their self-control, and their great homespun fashion sense.

Jar Jar overreacts to everything, constantly makes mistakes, never has a plan and has atrocious table manners. He resembles nothing so much as an overgrown child. A fool, in the folkloric sense.

Most fans think of him as nothing more than bad comic relief, and George Lucas’s non-defense of the Gungan as just another element of a kid-oriented movie doesn’t help.

Lucas may simply be playing his cards close to his vest, however. The filmmaker has been studiously close-mouthed about nearly every aspect of the prequel trilogy, and even in The Phantom Menace there’s evidence that Jar Jar is more than he appears to be.

"Just relax, the Force will guide us"

Binks may be clumsy, but he’s also amazingly lucky – something the sage Qui-Gon Jinn seems to recognize early on.

When we first meet him, Jar Jar is enjoying a perfectly ordinary breakfast, which just happens to be in the path of a horde of Trade Federation war machines – and, the one man who can save Jar Jar from them.

It's not just that Binks is in the right place at the right time. The happy-go-lucky Gungan takes action, grabbing Qui-Gon and setting into motion a sequence of events that will inevitably lead to him accompanying the Jedi on his adventures.

Before long, Qui-Gon has "clumsy" Jar Jar navigating a Gungan submarine, telling him, "Just relax, the Force will guide us." It does, at least until Jar Jar faints upon encountering the sea monsters – and even when he is unconscious, bigger fish just happen to come along to consume the ones attacking his vessel.

"Why mesa always the one?"

Jar Jar’s fear seems to be the weakness complicating his relationship with the Force. Anakin spots it immediately, telling him that the reason Sebulba and others pick on him is because he is always afraid.

Binks continues to be afraid throughout The Phantom Menace, but by the climactic final battle, it no longer paralyzes him. It’s in this battle that – seemingly despite his failings – he begins to shine.

As we all know, he gets his feet caught on a broken battle droid, and destroys half a dozen more trying to shake it off. Trying to clamber on the back of a wagon of energy balls, he destroys even more droids by clumsily upsetting the boomball cart.

Jar Jar Binks takes out droids as fast as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan do, and he’s not even trying. Maybe that's his secret. The message is clear and consistent. When Jar Jar Binks takes action – even if it is only to run away – good things happen to him. Is he just lucky? Or is he unconsciously using the Force?

Is there a difference?

The hero with a thousand faces and two buggy eyes

If mythic structure can be trusted, Jar Jar is more than just the luckiest Gungan in the universe. He’s following the path of one of George Lucas’s favorite obsessions: Joseph Campbell’s "Hero’s Journey".

Whether we take the famous literary critic turned mythic guru at face value or not, we know Lucas is a longtime fan, and so Campbell's interpretation of folklore patterns probably has quite a bit of relevance to the Star Wars saga.

Campbell suggested that most of the important heroes in myth and literature undergo a common sequence of experiences and changes. So far, Jar Jar’s adventures fit that sequence perfectly.

We’re introduced to Jar Jar in his Ordinary World of swimming and sucking clams. He hears the Call to Adventure in Qui-Gon’s request for guidance to the Gungan city, and at first Refuses the Call.

Qui-Gon becomes a Mentor leading him into adventure, however, and he soon Crosses the First Threshold, reluctantly entering a new world through the undersea journey to the Naboo capital. Just like Luke Skywalker destroying the Death Star, he Passes Tests in the climactic battle against the Trade Federation, becoming a hero to his people.

In many ways, Jar Jar Binks is the Luke of Episode I: he’s the annoying bumpkin, the farmboy who makes good. Anakin, the most obvious candidate for that role, turns out to be something else.

Bring on that Grail

No other character in The Phantom Menace follows the Campbellian pattern as clearly as Jar Jar. Obi-wan and Anakin come close, but Obi-wan is already well-advanced down his own path, and Anakin’s precocious eagerness to launch himself into adventure hints that he will follow a more twisted path to villainy.

Of course, Jar Jar has only taken a few steps in his journey – look for him to encounter innermost caves, supreme ordeals and other Campbellian challenges in the next two movies. Episode III may even end with his Return with the Elixir – perhaps spiriting the infant Luke and Leia away from their father so they can grow up in safety?

If this comes to pass, Jar Jar’s ridiculous mannerisms may eventually serve to hide a powerful Force-sensitive character in plain sight. George Lucas may have pulled the wool over the eyes of an audience of millions.

Jar Jar Binks may never wear a Jedi cape, of course, and his detractors can rest assured he's unlikely to become the star of the Star Wars saga. But his comic role in The Phantom Menace might just be the surface of the lake – and there's always a bigger mythic fish lurking at Lucas' swimming hole.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
02-12-2002, 03:21 AM
For more on this topic, atleast until Tycho and others can post their comments, check out this thread in the AOTC's Hasbro section of the forums. It contains some possible E2 spoilers, but since we are discussing E3 spoilers it shouldn't be that big a deal to all of you. :D http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3643

The discussion about JJB and his future in the saga starts at post 15 and pretty much takes up the rest of the next page. :) I hope that this info, as well as some of Tycho's comments really might make you think twice about Jar Jar Binks. I know that it;s hard for many of you to consider JJB the tie that binds the saga together, but looking at how Lucas operates, it's pretty obvious.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
02-12-2002, 03:31 AM
Here are some intresting comments from Tycho from the above mentioned Arena Playset Forum. For the full comments and more please refer to the thread posted above. :D

Originally posted by Tycho
Honestly, I don't hate JarJar, but I don't care if he redeems himself in THIS movie or not. I believe he plays to 2 purposes:

1) He is the fool character from mythology and he does things wrong like accept Palpatine as Emperor and such (afterall, Palpatine is from Naboo - and no one would say JarJar speaks to be EVIL, so....

2) He acted like such a clutz to annoy people enough to make fun of him, hate him, etc, only to end up being the one who might save Padme, or baby Luke and Leia and make the whole second trilogy possible. In light of that, Lucas wants those of us who were rude to him to say "it was wrong to treat a geek that bad - or to pick on someone who is different, or mal-adjusted." We should have been more noble, like a Jedi - like Qui-Gon. We were of the Dark Side in the audience. Mythology carries lessons in it, and characters serve purposes. JarJar also served the one that markets something cute or childish to kids, but we might have hated the geek we saw in him, because it reminds us of what people who collect Star Wars toys well into their 20's might be thought of as being like, by people who don't know them or see their inner value as a person. JarJar has a lot of inner value I don't expect us to see really until Episode 3.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
02-12-2002, 09:05 AM
That's quite the impressive study, and yet all I think when I see the title of this thread is "nope". ;)

For me, it's never really been Jar Jar himself, it's the way the character is portrayed in Ep 1, it's just too much stealing of dignity (both his and the audience's) which is a fault of Lucas and McCallum, and probably a little of that rests on Ahmed Best's shoulders too.

Rollo Tomassi
02-12-2002, 11:04 AM
I think people already underestimate him. I think Jar Jar will have a small, yet integral and important part to play in the third movie, and in the entire series overall.

JetsAndHeels
02-12-2002, 01:49 PM
JarJar is definately underestimated. Like I said in another forum, I didnt really pay much attention to him at first but later I began to see his true significance. Sure he was a little annoying to me at first, but let's take a look at what he did in EPI:

1. He helped unify the Gungans and the Naboo
2. He helped lead the Gungan army against the droid army
3. Was able to get an army for the Queen at the battle of Naboo

Now he is a Senator, and who knows what role he will have in EP3, but I think it will be significant.

Tycho
02-12-2002, 03:05 PM
In the Episode 3 Spoilers forum, I think most of you were participating in the infamous "Mace's Death Thread" which outlines are whole take on E3, and has addressed such things as Han's involvement in the prequels, to Anakin's possible father. Background characters such as Tarkin have also been discussed, and I think many of us agreed that this was a logical outline for the things that must happen in E3. It would make sense to me to start there, and fit JarJar into the events of our plotline, to see how he will contribute.

One element of JarJar's character I think will play an important part is loyalty. He might screw up, but even from the start he was true to Qui-Gon - a lifedebt thing. The Naboo (led by Padme) saved his people, and his people saved the Naboo - with their diversion so the humans could take to their fightercraft versus facing the security and numbers of the entire landed Federation army. So with Qui-Gon gone, and Obi-Wan never taking a liking to him (much like the fans' attitude, heh?), JarJar can't stay with the Jedi - so he will bond with Padme. Afterall, she is there on his planet. He will be loyal to HER, and thus send help or accompany the Naboo's efforts for justice in the galaxy, and perhaps think he should help Palpatine, since JarJar may see him as a 'home-boy' also. This would impact his Episode 2 role. That may be a Gungan General uniform his action figure is wearing. JarJar is a General now. Tarpals was a mere Captain, recall? Hence why the outfit is different from his Senate one. The other possibility is that like Padme in Episode One, one outfit is worn for office meetings, another for full-fledged Senate hearings. JarJar's action pose could just be attributable to Hasbro embelishing again (without our permission).

Meanwhile, in terms of Episode 3, while I still think Han will be a Rebel to his Clone Commander and the 11 year-old will free Padme perhaps - and save his future wife unknowingly - he-heh - AND make a mortal enemy out of Boba Fett, JarJar will be the one who shows up with a ship or something to help them escape - or he is the one who sacrafices his life as the decoy - the Gungan Diversion again - so that she can escape (with Yoda?) while Han goes AWOL, Mace gets "disintegrated," and Obi-Wan leads others away. (I don't think he has Luke yet, because LUKE SKYWALKER has to GO TO DAGOBAH in Episode 3, because "There's something familiar about this place.") Obi-Wan must pick him up there. JarJar and Yoda may have dropped Padme on Alderaan (with Leia then) and thus when Obi-Wan arrives, he never knows that Luke had a sister. "No. There is another." Somewhere or another, Yoda leaves Alderaan, or was never there - but he must be with Padme to get the twins, and eventually take Luke away, so that when young Skywalker becomes Obi-Wan's charge, Obi-Wan is still unaware of Leia (for her protection - if Obi-Wan is to face Vader - or the possibility that one day he will decide to). It ensures at least one twin an extra layer of security.

Meanwhile feel free to copy and post my theory as I wouldn't want to lose it, but don't have time to work on the Mace's Death Thread right now. Sorry my thoery isn't refined more, but in the final "escape," I'm not convinced we've organized the facts as to who goes where yet.

However:

1) Luke must go to Dagobah before Tatooine (with Obi-Wan)
2) Obi-Wan probably does not know Padme had twins (Leia)
3) Leia does interact with her mother before her mother's possible death
4) Yoda must go to Dagobah, probably with Luke
5) If Padme and Leia go to Dagobah, they leave or stay hidden before Obi-Wan arrives.
6) Obi-Wan does know Yoda is on Dagobah
7) Boba Fett, Darth Vader, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu, JarJar Binks, and maybe Han Solo all play a part in this.

These 7 rules must be obeyed, and then they can be appropriately applied to the Mace's Death Thread and maybe we'll get some insight into what JarJar does in all of this.

Darth Ovori
02-13-2002, 03:54 PM
Jar JAr will escort Yoda to Dagobah...
From there Jar Jar will travel in hiding from evil Anikin to Tattione to drop of Luke...

Co Jo-Da
02-13-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
1) Luke must go to Dagobah before Tatooine (with Obi-Wan)
2) Obi-Wan probably does not know Padme had twins (Leia)
3) Leia does interact with her mother before her mother's possible death
4) Yoda must go to Dagobah, probably with Luke
5) If Padme and Leia go to Dagobah, they leave or stay hidden before Obi-Wan arrives.
6) Obi-Wan does know Yoda is on Dagobah
7) Boba Fett, Darth Vader, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu, JarJar Binks, and maybe Han Solo all play a part in this.

I agree that all those must happen within Episode III but so should these (I know that some are the similar if not the same)...

1) Anakin is tempted by both Dooku and Palpatine.
2) Boba Fett is assassinating Jedi's left and right.
3) Palpatine takes full and complete control of the Senate and the Republic.
4) The Jedi Council agrees to go underground to over throw Palpatine.
5) Obi-Wan entrusts Bail Organa to protect Padme from Vader.
6) Dagobah could be the place where Luke and Leia are born.
7) Obi-Wan will take Luke Owen Larrs on Tatooine.
8) Bail Organa will take Padme and Liea to Alderaan.
9) Vader hunts for Padme (not knowing about the twins).
10) Padme will die before the film ends.
11) Vader will be horribly injured by Obi-Wan.

And so much more that Episode II might answer or call into question.

As for Jar Jar, I don't know what Episode III has in store for him but I'm sure he'll be remember as a hero...

Co Jo-Da
02-13-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Darth Ovori
Jar JAr will escort Yoda to Dagobah...
From there Jar Jar will travel in hiding from evil Anikin to Tattione to drop of Luke...

That’s interesting that you think Jar Jar will deliver Luke to Tatooine but I think the responsibility will fall on Obi-Wan...

Darth Ovori
02-13-2002, 04:57 PM
Of course, that's my opinion I could be wrong.
:D :D :D

SithDroid
02-13-2002, 05:52 PM
The answer to this question is ............. NO.

chewie
02-13-2002, 10:56 PM
We definitely have not underestimated Jar Jar. :cool:

Tycho
02-14-2002, 03:13 AM
Co-Jo Da, I agree with most of your points but take a big issue with several of them - and though some of your rules that really did apply were right on their mark, they had little to do with JarJar being a hero in the end, judged unfairly by the fans who fall for Lucas' morality trap.

We don't know that Obi-Wan entrusts Bail to protect Padme. He might not have anything to do with that. Padme and Bail Organa may have a friendship and a history of helping each other that have nothing to do with the fact that Obi-Wan became a General under Organa. It is very possible (your theory) but not without any possible doubt.

Anakin / Vader may not even know Padme is still alive. He might turn to the Dark Side AFTER he presumes she is dead. This seems likely. He is motivated by uncontrollabe grief, self-criticism, and anger, and he is looking to exonerrate himself from the blame (most likely).

Padme might not die in the Prequel Trilogy. Leia remembers her from when she was young. "She was gentle, kind, very beautiful, but sad..." That doesn't sound like the perceptions of someone who was born 24 hours more or less before her mother's death. That's when Leia would be mostly concerned about whether she just wet herself. My earliest memories are my 3 year birthday cake - a chocolate ice cream chu-chu-train my mom worked very hard to make and was taking a picture of, when I stuck my whole head into it. My own mom was "utterly baffled, kind, very beautiful, but ready to kill her kid!" Lucky my dad washed my hair while my mom stuck to getting the chocolate out of my laundry. I remember how cool of sensation it was to have freezing wet stuff you could eat just oozing down your forehead, down the back of your pajamas, and making your mom look funny as it went "Splat! Splat!" all over the floor! So yes, while there are pictures, I do remember the cold, and then the warm water as my dad washed my hair and the tasty stuff went away...

I don't remember being born. I read the history of the United States in the mid-seventies, and I remember Star Wars. I can't say if maybe in Vietnam there were really a bunch of clones and communist-made battle droids running around the jungle with now-extinct giant dinosaur-type beasts. Maybe there were and all we know is the official government coverup. Just like Leia doesn't remember the Clone Wars or the troubles her mom felt then. It had to happen afterward.

We don't know if Padme dies at all, though I think Leia did know the truth when she told Luke her real mother had passed on. In the Romeo and Juliet fashion of a classic tale Lucas' is weaving, I still think that maybe Padme commits suicide. If so, it won't be in the movie, and it will take a few years before she takes her own life. She would first try to undo the injustices maybe, but definitely see to it that Leia was well cared for, and finally, I still believe she might have thought Anakin was dead (like Juliet learned of Romeo). Only in this twist, maybe later, after the movie, Padme learns what she helped Palpatine become, and where Anakin's new alliances are, and what he's become. People change, and she might not be able to go on living and able to handle this. It is too dark of thing perhaps for even Episode III, but you never know. Romeo and Juliette had a double-suicide and it was shown to young and old alike for centuries. You never know. But Padme's suicide would be far more tragic than any "space ship accident" or "one battle too many." Only if Vader kills her could it be any worse. Other kinds of deaths are just cheaper devices by comparison (to the suicide or Vader).

I just think this happens a few years later, after Leia can form some kind of daughter-mother bond with Padme.

Beast
02-14-2002, 03:38 AM
I agree Tycho, I don't think Padme dies in Episode III either. Since Leia remembers her somewhat, even though it's vague memories like her emotions, means that she was older then a newborn when Padme dies. From what we have heard in the Insider, they filmed some scenes for E3 while in Tunisia for Episode II. One of these was the final scene for Episode III, since they wouldn't need to come back to Tatooine in the story other then for the end. There was even a picture that appeared, I believe it also was in the insider of Obi-Wan holding a covered thing (Baby Luke) in his arms in the desert. Obviously Episode III will end with the delivery of the Infant Luke to Owen and Beru.

I don't remember being born either, which is why even though people complain about the vast flaws and differences it seems between Episode I and Episode IV there is one important thing to remember. In war, the victor writes the history books. Obviously Palpatine supressed information about the jedis and what occured during the clone wars since the only ones to directly participate were the geonosins, the battle droids, the jedis, and a few others. He turned the Jedi order thru mis-information into a perceived mythical group of crazies. Look at our own country and the Korean war, which was pretty much a forgotten war until the movie and primarily the TV series M*A*S*H reminded people of it in the 70's

By the way, cute story about the choclate choo choo train cake. You have to post that picture sometime. By the way, my first memory actually occured a few months after my first birthday. A while after Star Wars opened my parents took my older brother to see it, and they didn't have a sitter to watch me so I was brought along. The only thing I do remember about it is being a scared of the jawa and really sad that the Jawa's had shot poor R2-D2. I've been addicted ever since. He He He :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
09-04-2005, 02:50 AM
What a shame, reduced to 2 onscreen cameos and one line of recycled dialogue. :(

Thankfully we get to hear our floppy eared friend in ROTJ. :thumbsup:

JimJamBonds
09-04-2005, 01:18 PM
What a shame, reduced to 2 onscreen cameos and one line of recycled dialogue. :(

Thankfully we get to hear our floppy eared friend in ROTJ. :thumbsup:

Hopefully he'll get some more love in the deleted scenes. Since you've already scene it Caesar is Jar Jar in the Rebellion scene?

2-1B
09-04-2005, 02:22 PM
No he is not. :(

From what I recall (after seeing it twice) we see Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, Amanda Lucas, Warren Owens the guy with the bushy gray beard, and that tall guy who reminds of a cross between Ahmed Best and the Mace Windu stand in from TPM.

But no Jar Jar. :(

I said 2 cameos, those being the landing platform when The Negotiator and The Poster Boy return and also in Padme's Senate box when Palps turns on the jam box and declares himself Emperor.

I think those are the only 2, did I miss any ? :confused:

JimJamBonds
09-04-2005, 02:42 PM
Those are the only two that I can think of.... I know plenty of people don't like Jar Jar but considering how much he was in TPM and to be on screne for literally seconds in ROTS is a joke.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-04-2005, 04:45 PM
It's possible that he was in at least one of the rebellion-forming scenes; from what I have read there are many (but I doubt all of them will be on the DVD).

JediTricks
09-04-2005, 10:55 PM
That's quite the impressive study, and yet all I think when I see the title of this thread is "nope". ;)

For me, it's never really been Jar Jar himself, it's the way the character is portrayed in Ep 1, it's just too much stealing of dignity (both his and the audience's) which is a fault of Lucas and McCallum, and probably a little of that rests on Ahmed Best's shoulders too.
Wow, it's like I was able to see the future! :p

Elliejabbapop
09-06-2005, 05:14 AM
Personally, I never had any problems with Jar Jar, hell I even thought he was funny at some point!!! :p
However, I admit that having him as a principal character in all three films would have been very, very tiring, I can't even think about it :).
The screen time he had in AOTC was ideal :D .

The 'Xir
09-06-2005, 12:09 PM
Jar Jar's absence in EpIII is just one example on my list that imo destroys the credibility of EpIII and the prequels as a whole!
I agree with most of JJBs "thesis" on Jar Jar, except the part that says he is the only character that relates to Campbells' outline of a 'Hero's Journey' in EpI. Amidala fits this guideline to a T and is the real protaganist of that story, mush as Luke was in ANH and the OT and obviously as Anakin/Vader is to the whole Saga!
However, there in lies another example on my list of weakly told and/or unfinished character arches that weaken EpIII and the PT..: Amidala's lack of purpose within RotS.All she does is act as the distressed wife waiting atop the widows peek, yearning for her Sailor to return to her, and when she finds out that he hasn't(not as he left her of course) she dies due to that now broken bond. This is so weak, and there is so much more that she could have done, and Jar Jar could have been tied into it as well to make a more entertaining and stronger story arch for these now throw away characters!

Elliejabbapop
09-06-2005, 01:45 PM
Amidala's lack of purpose within RotS.All she does is act as the distressed wife waiting atop the widows peek, yearning for her Sailor to return to her, and when she finds out that he hasn't(not as he left her of course) she dies due to that now broken bond. This is so weak, and there is so much more that she could have done
There's more to being pregnant than you think.Being male you obviously lack the perception, but I would have expected a better dose of sensitivity towards women in that respect. :(

El Chuxter
09-06-2005, 02:19 PM
Jar Jar's absence from AOTC and ROTS makes TPM even more unfulfilling. :(

The 'Xir
09-06-2005, 02:43 PM
There's more to being pregnant than you think.Being male you obviously lack the perception, but I would have expected a better dose of sensitivity towards women in that respect. :(

No sensitivity needed! I'm not attacking(and made no mention by the way of) her being pregnant! I have heard a few arguments on these boards about how in the first 2 movies, Padme is such a strong character and what a great role model for women all around the world she is, but in EpIII she is reduced to nothing more that what I described in my above post. I'm trying to defend her strong character and am asking why we didn't see it in EpIII?
And, If I gather what you are saying from your response it would actually seem that you are the one lacking in perception! Because I'm saying that even though pregnant, I feel that Padme or anyone women can still remain strong and heroic, but it sounds as if your blamming her actions or lack there of(depending on you pov) on her condition and that I should feel sympathetic because of it.
Sure, is being pregnant one of the most emotional rollacosters a women has to face in life? Of course, and you all have my sympathy and support for it, we men are truely lucky and blessed that we have such strong women to carry this burden for all of us. However, it doesn't mean that a women has to become pensively passive during her pregnancy the way Padme does! I think her portrayl in epIII is more stereotypical and sexist than what I'm proposing, so maybe you should direct your sensitivity question towards Lucas instead of trying to pick an "arrogant insensitive men" fight with me! :hurt: :dis:

2-1B
09-07-2005, 12:48 AM
As Padme pointed out before Anakin turned, she already wanted to return home to Naboo and have their baby there. She said she doubted the Queen would let her continue to serve in the Senate.

So before she died broken hearted, she had already traded in her career for "stay at home" motherhood. One might think that is weak, but others would disagree.

Elliejabbapop
09-07-2005, 12:58 PM
Thank you Caesar. :)
Xir I think you're perception is lacking because you think that all women HAVE to be strong while pregnant, whereas there are many women who get depressed or suddenly refuse an active life to then blossom again once their baby is born, perhaps even later, and they're not weak because of this. That is what offends me.

seanmcfripp
09-08-2005, 10:06 AM
Xir I think you're perception is lacking because you think that all women HAVE to be strong while pregnant, whereas there are many women who get depressed or suddenly refuse an active life to then blossom again once their baby is born, perhaps even later, and they're not weak because of this. That is what offends me.

Poor Xir. Am I the only one that's confused over what was so offensive about his post?

CaptainSolo1138
09-08-2005, 10:36 AM
Poor Xir. Am I the only one that's confused over what was so offensive about his post?
No, you're not alone. He was only restating what has been said a milion times in these forums. But whatever....

2-1B
09-08-2005, 11:48 AM
Xir is still recovering from his abuse of the Exclamation Point! He's made progress in this regard but the road to recovery is a long and winding one and sometimes he will come across as yelling with emphasis! It takes time! lol !

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-10-2005, 11:15 AM
Anyway, I think Jar Jar served his purpose in both TPM and AOTC - in TPM, everyone thought he was a d*uche, but he redeemed himself in offering the Gungan army's help to the Naboo; in AOTC he did what he thought was best in suggesting giving Palpatine emergency powers and bringing about the start of the Clone Wars and Palpatine's dictatorship, in a way.

Plus, in ROTS, he was a way for Orn Free Taa to finally have a line, so that's good. :D

The 'Xir
09-20-2005, 03:09 AM
Thank you Caesar. :)
Xir I think you're perception is lacking because you think that all women HAVE to be strong while pregnant

Go, back through my posts and point out where I said this, I'll save you the time... cause I never did!
But seeing as you are trying desperately to back me into this insensitive man corner, I'll give you what you've been waiting for..:

"Just like a woman to ask for support and when a man finally gets behind her, she cries rrrfoul!"


So before she died broken hearted, she had already traded in her career for "stay at home" motherhood. One might think that is weak, but others would disagree.

Once again I never specified this as what I thought was weak or not! Caesar, it is obvious that some people like to read into what other people say on these baords in order to argue certain stances they feel strongly about, and by you fueling the fire it's not helping, or constructive!

Ellie, I'm sorry If my thoughts weren't clear enough, but I was just making a general point, just simply asking where Padmes' strong characteristics were in RotS? I made no specific mention of here condition, decisions, or here actions(eg. choosing to stay home, which Is very noble indeed). Even when you brought real world scenarios into the argument, I again made no specific mention of any real womens plights or made any general realization that All women HAVE to be strong! Obviously all women are not, and sometimes even that is not due to any fault of their own but sometimes just things beyond their control.
I only raised what I thought was a classic and sometimes weak stereotype of the wife being left behind to wander the widows peak, which is a metaphorical tool that permeates many literary masterpeices, which we all know George loves to borrow from! In result, If by cutting Padmes' Petition of the 2000 Senators scenes' from the final version of RotS, is what George was trying to accomplish by this type of metaphoric allegory than I(with all due sincerity) do think it was a very weak story plot, and much inline with the no less weak and actually non-existent storyline of Jar Jar Binks in EpIII!

In retrospect, I think I am correct in accusing you of confusing my accusations of weak story elements(with Padme being the victim of those weak stroy elements), with suggesting that a pregneant Padme alone was weak in and of herself! Fair enough?

I hope all of this was stated a little more clearly! :crazed: Lord knows my brain is fried right about now! :cross-eye lol

2-1B
09-20-2005, 04:15 AM
Xir ! I wasn't saying you specifically ! Just that "one" might find that weak, while others might not ! I didn't mean you specifically, so please don't quote me that way ! Thanks ! :)


Caesar, it is obvious that some people like to read into what other people say on these baords

That's exactly what I think you did ! You read into whom I was talking about, when I wasn't saying anyone specific ! Sorry that you got confused ! :)

Elliejabbapop
09-20-2005, 11:53 AM
it is obvious that some people like to read into what other people say on these baords

If people were clearer, other people wouldn't "read into" things.
What you said in this last post was not what we were led to believe in your original post.


Ellie, I'm sorry If my thoughts weren't clear enough, but I was just making a general point, just simply asking where Padmes' strong characteristics were in RotS?

And I think I answered your question.


In result, If by cutting Padmes' Petition of the 2000 Senators scenes' from the final version of RotS, is what George was trying to accomplish by this type of metaphoric allegory than I(with all due sincerity) do think it was a very weak story plot, and much inline with the no less weak and actually non-existent storyline of Jar Jar Binks in EpIII!

So you do prefer the pregnant working girl to the stay-at-home housewife....good for you lol Jokes apart, I too would have liked to see this scene, I completely agree :)


In retrospect, I think I am correct in accusing you of confusing my accusations of weak story elements(with Padme being the victim of those weak stroy elements), with suggesting that a pregneant Padme alone was weak in and of herself! Fair enough?

Nope. If I can't accuse you of being an insensitive man you must at least let me suggest you become more sensitive in your use of language. No offence and I hope none taken ;) .

seanmcfripp
09-21-2005, 08:01 AM
I think we're missing the bigger picture when it comes to Padme's strength as a character. Really, when you think about it, how strong was she? I mean, did we ever see her cleaning a toilet? Did we ever see her making dinner for the fellas? Did we ever see her bring Ani a beer and massage his feet while he watched the pod races? No, no, and no. She's an awful, neglectful wife and a terrible role model for women. And for cryin' out loud, pregnant women shouldn't wear shoes!



* disclaimer: toungue planted firmly in cheek ;)

Elliejabbapop
09-22-2005, 06:56 AM
I just have three brief things to say:
1) You didn't see her do these things because there is no episode "two and a half";
2) No dignified woman would do the things you suggest;
3) Pregnant women can't stay secluded for nine months and they certainly can't walk barefoot down the street.

:) :) :)

Beast
03-26-2006, 11:38 PM
See, now these were fun discussions. :)

2-1B
03-27-2006, 01:21 AM
Agreed, it's just too bad that every home doesn't have one.