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parana
03-26-2008, 12:08 AM
I thought the Phantom Menance had the tools to be one of the top Star Wars films but Lucas doomed it from the beginning.

1. He made it a children's film by inserting all the childish level comedy surrounding Jar Jar Binks.

2. The voice overs of the alien spieces were also border line comical. He would have been better off inventing languages and using subtests.

3. Jake Llyod as Anakin Skywalker. Everything here was wrong! He played this part too young but yet some off the lines in the script were ridiculous. The second time he meets Padme, he invites her to HIS PLACE to wait out the storm. Every other 10 year old would invite them back to his and his mother's home. It is like he is hitting on her because when he first meets her he asks her if she is an angel. She is dressed and looks like any other human girl on Tatooine, is he hitting on her again?

4. He and his mother are suppose to be slaves? They have their own place way across town, you would think they would live next to the shop. He is 10 years old has a robot and a pod racer, that his master doesn't know about. How does a 10 year old slave build a pod racer that his master doesn't know about?

5. Qui-Gon Jinn wants to keep a low profile after they escape Naboo. So he takes a Gungan with him (a species only found on Naboo) as he searches for a hyperdrive. A person, who got exiled from of his own city because of his culmliness and stands out like a red flag. Gungan's a species that live under water but the heat of Tatooine did not seem to bother Jar Jar?

6. The voices he gives to trade federation's robot soldiers "roger, Roger!" are as bad as the aliens.

7. Mace Windu saying that Jinn's attacker can't be a sith and then sends Obi-wan and Jinn to protect the Queen and hopefully draw out the Sith!

8. Padme saying to Anakin after they leave Tatooine that she really cares for him, they just met (she's 15/16 and he is 10). Now let's put this in prospective she is a Queen of a whole planet that has just been invaded and her people are being killed and tortured, including her family. But, yet she finds time to become emotionly attached to a 10 year old boy?

9. Two Sith, no further than a Super Star Destroyer away from a whole temple of Jedi Masters, Knights and Padawans and yet no one ever picks up that the dark side is at work in the Senate chambers? How everyone above the age 10 in the audience knew that Paplatine was the head sith from the get go was the worst directing of a trilogy!

10. Why didn't Jinn leave Anakin at the Jedi Temple where it was safe and he could of started his training. The whole time during the battle he is telling Anakin to find a safe place to hide. If you were so worried about the boy, why take him into the war zone.

11. Anakin promises his mother he will free her, after Naboo is free don't you think Padme would givin' him enough money to do this considering their whole relationship on the Naboo starship and what he did from them. I can keep going but I will stop here to get your feedback.

I think Phantom Menance had a lot of potential but these flaws are major and hurt the movie and point to some of the things others have complained about.

Plus.. Lucas kills one of his greatest creations DARTH MAUL! I would have rather seen Count Dooku die here!!

2-1B
03-26-2008, 12:46 AM
12. The absence of 2-1B, which immediately made it one of the 3 worst Star Wars movies along with Attack of the Clones and A New Hope.

bigbarada
03-26-2008, 01:47 AM
I thought the Phantom Menance had the tools to be one of the top Star Wars films but Lucas doomed it from the beginning.

1. He made it a children's film by inserting all the childish level comedy surrounding Jar Jar Binks.

2. The voice overs of the alien spieces were also border line comical. He would have been better off inventing languages and using subtests.

3. Jake Llyod as Anakin Skywalker. Everything here was wrong! He played this part too young but yet some off the lines in the script were ridiculous. The second time he meets Padme, he invites her to HIS PLACE to wait out the storm. Every other 10 year old would invite them back to his and his mother's home. It is like he is hitting on her because when he first meets her he asks her if she is an angel. She is dressed and looks like any other human girl on Tatooine, is he hitting on her again?

4. He and his mother are suppose to be slaves? They have their own place way across town, you would think they would live next to the shop. He is 10 years old has a robot and a pod racer, that his master doesn't know about. How does a 10 year old slave build a pod racer that his master doesn't know about?

5. Qui-Gon Jinn wants to keep a low profile after they escape Naboo. So he takes a Gungan with him (a species only found on Naboo) as he searches for a hyperdrive. A person, who got exiled from of his own city because of his culmliness and stands out like a red flag. Gungan's a species that live under water but the heat of Tatooine did not seem to bother Jar Jar?

6. The voices he gives to trade federation's robot soldiers "roger, Roger!" are as bad as the aliens.

7. Mace Windu saying that Jinn's attacker can't be a sith and then sends Obi-wan and Jinn to protect the Queen and hopefully draw out the Sith!

8. Padme saying to Anakin after they leave Tatooine that she really cares for him, they just met (she's 15/16 and he is 10). Now let's put this in prospective she is a Queen of a whole planet that has just been invaded and her people are being killed and tortured, including her family. But, yet she finds time to become emotionly attached to a 10 year old boy?

9. Two Sith, no further than a Super Star Destroyer away from a whole temple of Jedi Masters, Knights and Padawans and yet no one ever picks up that the dark side is at work in the Senate chambers? How everyone above the age 10 in the audience knew that Paplatine was the head sith from the get go was the worst directing of a trilogy!

10. Why didn't Jinn leave Anakin at the Jedi Temple where it was safe and he could of started his training. The whole time during the battle he is telling Anakin to find a safe place to hide. If you were so worried about the boy, why take him into the war zone.

11. Anakin promises his mother he will free her, after Naboo is free don't you think Padme would givin' him enough money to do this considering their whole relationship on the Naboo starship and what he did from them. I can keep going but I will stop here to get your feedback.

I think Phantom Menance had a lot of potential but these flaws are major and hurt the movie and point to some of the things others have complained about.

Plus.. Lucas kills one of his greatest creations DARTH MAUL! I would have rather seen Count Dooku die here!!

1. Making Jar Jar a clumsy oaf wasn't necessarily a bad idea, but establishing that part of this character with trite and tired television-grade, slapstick humor was the problem.

2. The alien "accents" were a little strange, especially since there is no precedent for them in the OT. The only one that I did like was Watto, however, I thought his voice was done very well. Overall though, it would have been better to just do the alien languages with subtitles or have everyone speak normally.

3. I wouldn't really blame Jake Lloyd because I think Lucas got the character wrong at the concept stage. There was no reason for him to be that young. Making Anakin older in Ep1 could have allowed them to use the same actor for all three films, thereby creating greater cohesion for the character.

4. I guess the tracking devices would eliminate the need to keep the slaves close by. But, I don't understand why it was necessary for Anakin to be a slave other than to help justify the podrace sequence. It has absolutely no context in the rest of the trilogy.

5. For the record, Jar Jar does make a mention about the sun being too hot. And having Jar Jar around was necessary to lighten the mood of the sequence, because we all know how dark and depressing a story about a kid winning a race against a bunch of Saturday-morning-cartoon aliens can be.:rolleyes:

6. It became very difficult to perceive the Battle Droids as a threat with those silly voices, which in turn made the Naboo seem like grand idiots for surrendering to these robots within minutes of their landing.

7. Mace Windu was a worthless character and really made me hate the Jedi.

8. Well, people tend to form very strong bonds with those around them very quickly during times of crisis. So that's understandable. But it should have been played.... differently and not so creepy.

9. Just shows how arrogant and overconfident the Jedi had become. Not a problem for me. I don't think the Palpatine/Sidious thing was supposed to be that big of a secret to the audience, just the characters. It's known as dramatic irony (when the audience is privy to information that the characters are not) and was a common literary device in the works of Shakespeare, among others.

10. Well, the Jedi were accustomed to kidnapping children away from their parents as infants and arming them with weapons that could cut through solid metal. So, Qui-Gonn would be just stupid enough to think that was a good idea.

11. Again, the Jedi are idiots for thinking that Anakin could just forget about his mother and for not arranging to get her out of slavery on Tatooine. You'd think they would at least send a couple of Jedi down to rescue her and shut down Watto's operation, since slavery was supposed to be illegal in that galaxy.

Jargo
03-26-2008, 10:46 AM
come to think of it why didn't Qui-gon just slice and dice Watto and take the boy and his mother plus the hyperdrive unit. and why would Watto be in possesion of such an article when everything else he owns is a pile of scrappy junk?
They could have walked in dealt with the situation in moments and be gone. Shmi would have fitted right in with the Naboo way of life being such a sensitive and pragmatic person. would have left an opening for Palpatine to know about her and have her assasinated and use her death rather than padme's as leverage on Anakin.

Maul should have escaped and come back in AOTC and ROTS. Dooku was useless. A total waste of time. Maul at least brought something exciting to the dueling. looked menacing and again it was a waste of time developing him only to kill him off after a few minutes of screen time.

If they'd spent less time dressing Padme up like some weird doll and more time developing her character through private emotion and thought process the relationship with Anakin might have made sense. it only makes sense in the cut scene from AOTC where padme talks about the species she tried to help that got wiped out. she has an affinity with those less fortunate than herself and feels compelled to care and help. experiencing the conditions in which Anakin and Shmi live brings out her caring nurturing side. but you only get that if you can read between the lines and flip flop between movies and all the cut bits.

The Jedi are arrogant and blind as any organisation, cult or religion. binding themselves up in rules and regulations and traditions. Palpatine is able to use that against them because of their natural tendency to simply follow set procedures. he knows what will grind their gears and that means they become easy to manipulate. so easy it takes no effort and he can be as chilled and blase about the jedi as he likes. with no fear there's no obvious sign of evil within Palpatine, aside from the same evil that inhabits every ambitious politician. The senate building would be awash with vibes of fear and intent it would be hard for the jedi to single out any individual. even if the Jedi suspected palpatine they don't have any proof of anything. Not until it's all too late.

There were subtitles in the OT and kids got it. why GL thought kids of '99 wouldn't get that too i don't know but he certainly dumbed down the prequels in that sense. I can understand why Lott Dod might speak basic but Nute and Rune didn't really have any need to. and the battle droids as a single force had far too much individuality to them. and varying voices. a single monotone electronic voice would have been more chilling. I also think they should have looked more threatening.

Personally i think great chunks of all three prequals could be cut and the three movies spliced together to make a better, faster flowing more cohesive single prequal movie.

which isn't to say i hate the prequels. on the contrary, there's many aspects I truly like. I simply feel that they drag on far too long and there are far too many superfluous detours in the story. just because you can do something doesn't mean you should and the prequels all too often slip into indulgence and what Lucas likes to call whimsy. to the detriment of the story. he should have saved a lot of the sub plots and detours for his tv show. made the tv show a sort of live action comic book. covering the whole time frame of the saga not just the period between ROTS and ANH.

Droid
03-26-2008, 11:56 AM
Once I saw Attack of the Clones it was one of my chief complaints with the story that Anakin would have been a hero to the people of Naboo on several levels, the Queen had some great attachment to Anakin, Padme herself was disgusted that Shmi was in slavery and knew that Anakin was troubled to leave her, yet ten years later we are to believe that Anakin was just told to stop thinking about his mother and that the Naboo did nothing to help her.

I actually thought Anakin WOULD go back to free the slaves since he had a dream that he did. Maybe he would find out his mother was dead, that he could free the slaves, but it was too late for her.

I also found it odd that Anakin didn't see Padme for ten years, but did see Palpatine. I would have thought Anakin would have requested that his powerful friend do something to help his mother. It would have made Anakin more indebted to Palpatine, even if Palpatine eventually manipulated the situation so Anakin still lost his mother.

parana
03-27-2008, 03:16 AM
You have to remember in the OT, Lucas didn't let the audience in on who the key players were ( who were the sith in PT) he left that up to be cliff hangers. Darth Varder = Luke Skywalker father, Luke and Leia = brother and sister. So, if he really did make it that obvious that Paplatine was the Sith then he went total opposite from his style in OT. Remember in AOTC, he tries to convinces the audiences that it is the Republic that is on the wrong side with Count Dooku, who at that time is just a Jedi Master, who feels the council has last its way.

Dooku is the worst Sith apprentice in the history of Star Wars! Supposely using the dark side ages oneself and comsumes their life force. Dooku didn't have any to start with. Those lightsaber battles he were in were so sad.

Why did Lucas have to put in that Shmi just woke up and she was pregnant with Anakin? Is Lucas tell us, Anakin is Jesus and Jesus was vital reason that the evil conquers good! There is no reason for this to even be in the script because if only the parents of Anakin don't matter because you don't have to be a Jedi to have a children with force powers. This is clearly stated because the Council doesn't allow Jedi to get married and have children but yet you still have more Jedi!

I think the technology was to advanced in the PT, he forgot he was going back in time. Alot of people have commented about all the gadets that R2D2 has in the PT but doesn't possess in the OT. The ships were much more advanced in PT and more run downdown in OT and we should have seen more of the OT ships in the PT but looking brand new (z-95 Headhunters and Dreadnoughts). I agree he tries to overwhelm his audience with all the new toys that are available to the industry.

I do think there is a lot of good in the TPM, I thought it could have been great, but I can help thinking how great it could have been.

Devo
03-27-2008, 08:16 AM
Yeah the situation around Anakin's mother was ridiculous. Theres no logical reason why she wouldn't have been rescued, no logical reason why the jedi would not have gotten involved on anakin's behalf - even to buy watto out if not take shmi back by force. Its just so contradictory to their supposed ethos and role in the galaxy - the guardians of peace and justice. And they should have known better, that anakin would grow up resentful - a far worse thing for his prospects as a jedi than this 'attachments' and 'fear of loss' they seemed to be worried about. Quite frankly the Prequels portrayed the jedi as complete idiots, order 66 couldn't come soon enough. And worst of all them was Mace *state the obvious* Windu. "I sense a plot to destroy the jedi"....:rolleyes: you don't say.

Likewise I found the alien 'accents' and battle droid voices totally at odds with anything from the OT but that would be one of the lesser complaints about the prequels.

Droid
03-27-2008, 07:21 PM
Ya, the forget your mother, who cares if she is a slave thing was so stupid.

And R2 flying bugged me more than I can say.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-27-2008, 07:48 PM
I said I wouldn't step into PT fights, but I wanted to clear a few things up, so the rest of you guys can discuss it, I guess. :D


You have to remember in the OT, Lucas didn't let the audience in on who the key players were ( who were the sith in PT) he left that up to be cliff hangers. Darth Varder = Luke Skywalker father, Luke and Leia = brother and sister. So, if he really did make it that obvious that Paplatine was the Sith then he went total opposite from his style in OT.
While it may have been obvious to you, or to many others who watched the OT first and already knew Palpatine was evil, it wasn't blatantly obvious until ROTS. There were even threads here where people wondered whether or not Palpatine and Sidious were the same person. It's obvious looking back that they're the same person but to many watching them the first time through it's not clear.


Remember in AOTC, he tries to convinces the audiences that it is the Republic that is on the wrong side with Count Dooku, who at that time is just a Jedi Master, who feels the council has last its way.
Dooku had been a Sith (we can assume) ever since Darth Maul died. Around that time (ten years before AOTC), Dooku left the Jedi Order, had a hand in the creation of the clone army (which varies depending on which source you read), and became Darth Tyranus. The Jedi knew that he had left the Order and started the Confederacy of Independent Systems; they didn't know the rest.


Dooku is the worst Sith apprentice in the history of Star Wars! Supposely using the dark side ages oneself and comsumes their life force. Dooku didn't have any to start with. Those lightsaber battles he were in were so sad.
There is no evidence in any of the films or legitimate EU (as far as I know) that says using the Dark Side ages or drains someone. Vader was not as strong since he was half machine; Palpatine was not as strong in ROTJ since he was 91 years old (but still pretending to not be as powerful as he really was); Maul was young and a great fighter; Dooku had been a powerful Jedi and this carried over to him as a Sith.


Why did Lucas have to put in that Shmi just woke up and she was pregnant with Anakin? Is Lucas tell us, Anakin is Jesus and Jesus was vital reason that the evil conquers good! There is no reason for this to even be in the script because if only the parents of Anakin don't matter because you don't have to be a Jedi to have a children with force powers. This is clearly stated because the Council doesn't allow Jedi to get married and have children but yet you still have more Jedi!
Lucas was not trying to push Christianity, if that's what you're saying; this was simply another in a long line of him using pieces of old religions, myths, or stories and repurposing them for this story. (He said at CIII he was raised Lutheran and now lives in a Buddhist area, but didn't explicitly say what religion he is.) Anakin's origins add mystery to the prophecy of the Chosen One; if you feel that it was unnecessary, well then there you go. But we can assume from dialogue in TPM and ROTS that Anakin was conceived by midi-chlorians, probably by the bidding of Plagueis or Sidious.

The Jedi serve the Republic; Tatooine is not in the Republic. Qui-Gon tried to free her but it didn't work; Cliegg later did it anyway so it all worked out. But the Jedi would have wanted to keep Anakin from his mother, as attachment of that sort was of course forbidden.

CaptainSolo1138
03-27-2008, 11:25 PM
Here we go again. Can't we just get Caesar to dig up the hundred or so threads pertaining to each individual point?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-28-2008, 12:07 AM
Here we go again. Can't we just get Caesar to dig up the hundred or so threads pertaining to each individual point?
Maybe we should . . . I should've just stayed out of here. :speech::o

Rocketboy
03-28-2008, 12:42 AM
I think Lucas doomed the internet when he released Episode 1.
There was no way in hell a movie that big could live up to the movie that many had in their heads since 1983.
And when The Phantom Menace wasn't the movie they wanted (along with the other Prequels) they couldn't just say "No sir, I didn't like it" and move on. Instead they decided to say Lucas ruined Star Wars/their childhood, then p*ss and moan about it online like little children for damn near a decade, all while buying prequel based toys, dvds, books, video games, comics, statues, and many, many other collectibles.

It's very simple kids: Don't like it? Don't support it.

bigbarada
03-28-2008, 01:29 AM
I think Lucas doomed the internet when he released Episode 1.
There was no way in hell a movie that big could live up to the movie that many had in their heads since 1983.
And when The Phantom Menace wasn't the movie they wanted (along with the other Prequels) they couldn't just say "No sir, I didn't like it" and move on. Instead they decided to say Lucas ruined Star Wars/their childhood, then p*ss and moan about it online like little children for damn near a decade, all while buying prequel based toys, dvds, books, video games, comics, statues, and many, many other collectibles.

It's very simple kids: Don't like it? Don't support it.

OR, people who like the Prequels can just stay out of the Prequel bashing threads.:yes:

Besides, your point is an over-generalization and has little basis in fact. It's blatantly obvious to EVERYONE, except the staunch Prequels supporters, that the Prequels films are not as good as the OT. Even non-Star Wars fans and people who casually like the movies, but don't live their lives around them, can recognize a significant drop in quality. The internet has nothing to do with it. So that throws a wrench in your "expectations were too high" argument.

There are a few Prequel supporters still out there that can't own up to the truth that the PT is a substandard piece of moviemaking. You can usually recognize them because they get angry and annoyed and start hurling insults when you even suggest that the Prequels aren't "just fine."

Back to the topic, trying to cover up this gigantic plot hole involving Anakin's mother in between Ep1 and Ep2 with the Jedi mantra of "no attachments," is just an unforgivably lazy piece of writing on Lucas' part and more evidence of characters acting out of plot necessity, not out their own motivations or personal interest. But I guess if people can put their brains on a shelf long enough to accept that as a logical explanation then more power to them.

2-1B
03-28-2008, 05:00 AM
Here we go again. Can't we just get Caesar to dig up the hundred or so threads pertaining to each individual point?

I'd be happy to...but I think the post I made in post 2 was very valid. :thumbsup: :2-1B's medical probe up as well: :thumbsup:

Rocketboy
03-28-2008, 10:00 AM
OR, people who like the Prequels can just stay out of the Prequel bashing threads.:yes:Then there are also the people that hate the Prequels that can't stay out of threads which have nothing to do with bashing the Prequels. :thumbsup:


Besides, your point is an over-generalization and has little basis in fact.So...it's kind of like most of the PT bashers arguments?


It's blatantly obvious to EVERYONE, except the staunch Prequels supporters, that the Prequels films are not as good as the OT. Even non-Star Wars fans and people who casually like the movies, but don't live their lives around them, can recognize a significant drop in quality.You were saying something about over-generalizations?
Of course the people that love it aren't going to see anything wrong with it!
The same argument could be applied to anything. Take Baseball for example:
"It's blatantly obvious to EVERYONE, except the staunch MLB supporters, that baseball is not as good as it used to be. Even non-baseball fans and people who casually like the game, but don't live their lives around them, can recognize a significant drop in quality of the past few years."


The internet has nothing to do with it. So that throws a wrench in your "expectations were too high" argument.So...where exactly is the PT being bashed on a daily basis on TV? The Newspaper? Magazines? Where are the "The Prequels Suck!" books?
Oh thats right, it's on the internet.


There are a few Prequel supporters still out there that can't own up to the truth that the PT is a substandard piece of moviemaking.Like I said earlier: Of course the people that love it aren't going to see anything wrong with it!


You can usually recognize them because they get angry and annoyed and start hurling insults when you even suggest that the Prequels aren't "just fine." That was another over-Generalization. Playing along, they are kind of like the bashers that have to be Debbie Downers when someone is actually trying to enjoy the Prequels.


BTW, I actually do enjoy the Prequels. However, I also feel that they are nowhere near as good as the OT in almost every way, shape and form. I pretty much see the OT and PT as two separate entities. The PT does have its share of "problems" and things I would have done differently, but it doesn't ruin the enjoyment I have of them.
The OT also has its share if problems, which I am able to turn a blind eye to.

General_Grievous
03-28-2008, 11:10 AM
Besides, your point is an over-generalization and has little basis in fact. It's blatantly obvious to EVERYONE, except the staunch Prequels supporters, that the Prequels films are not as good as the OT.
I beg to differ. I am in no way a staunch prequel supporter, even though I enjoyed each of them. But I felt that Revenge of the Sith rose above and beyond the level that Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were stuck at. In fact, while I think it wasn't as good as ANH or ESB, I thought ROTS was just as good as Return of the Jedi.

JON9000
03-28-2008, 02:04 PM
I felt that Revenge of the Sith rose above and beyond the level that Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were stuck at. In fact, while I think it wasn't as good as ANH or ESB, I thought ROTS was just as good as Return of the Jedi.

You are not alone, GG:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/return_of_the_jedi/

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_3/

:rehash: to this whole thread.

El Chuxter
03-28-2008, 03:07 PM
Don't insult Dooku. He's one of the few redeeming factors of AOTC, being the shizzy and all.

parana
03-28-2008, 05:20 PM
I never said someone could no longer enjoy the PT! What I did was a critical review of TPM as a movie and star wars universe. Some of you may agree and some may disagree. As I said, my biggest disappointment of the film was that how great it could have been! When you look at the OT's and what Lucas created with no money, no named actors, no state of the art technology and no support compared to the PT's, there is no comparison. I do enjoy the PT but as I watch them, they seem a "C+" / "B" rated work but that is my opinion. That is what these forums are for, people to voice their opinion's on common subjects and to debate/discuss those issues and exchange information.

CaptainSolo1138
03-28-2008, 05:32 PM
There was no way in hell a movie that big could live up to the movie that many had in their heads since 1983.
I should just keep this quote on a notepad somewhere for quick paste purposes.

:rehash:

stillakid
03-28-2008, 07:12 PM
There was no way in hell a movie that big could live up to the movie that many had in their heads since 1983.

That is one of the biggest pieces of BS I've ever heard. And if you believe it, then you're missing the point entirely.

The entire "argument" above is based around the erroneous and ridiculous concept that anyone who dislikes the Prequels had their own private movie in their head. :rolleyes:

Categorically, no. The point, for me and many many others, has always been that A) the Prequels stories did not follow the established continuity that the original films laid out and B) that the Prequel stories were inherently poor films when judged independently of the original films.

The suggestion that all of us "prequel-bashers" are just discontented because the Prequels that exist are somehow different than our own personal "visions" is insulting and abhorrently ridiculous.

Lucas not only F-u**ed up, but he also has admitted it. Deal with it. Like the movies all you want to. I and others don't really give a sh**. Seriously. But to accuse the majority of movie-goers of some kind of unfair bias is, again, ridiculous.

Mad Slanted Powers
03-28-2008, 08:40 PM
I can admit that the prequels aren't as good as the OT, but I didn't feel that way after Episode I. I thought that was great and didn't understand why people hated it so much. The next two movies are the ones that failed to connect up with the OT continuity-wise. Thus, while many think ROTS was the best of the prequels, it was the one that ultimately disappointed me the most. Not that I didn't like it. The more I watch it, I find it to be the one that really gets at me emotionally. The eerie scene as Padmé and Anakin are looking out their windows, Order 66, what Obi-Wan says to Anakin at the end - these scenes really make me feel the tragedy of what has transpired.

Rocketboy
03-28-2008, 11:56 PM
The point, for me and many many others, has always been that A) the Prequels stories did not follow the established continuity that the original films laid out and B) that the Prequel stories were inherently poor films when judged independently of the original films.A) That right there is a bunch of BS, but with your tunnel vision you'll never see it. B)That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, not a fact.


Lucas not only F-u**ed up, but he also has admitted it. Deal with it.Where?


Like the movies all you want to.Thanks, I will. :thumbsup:


I and others don't really give a sh**. Seriously.You don't? You sure have a funny way of showing it.


But to accuse the majority of movie-goers of some kind of unfair bias is, again, ridiculous.I never accused the majority of movie-goers of anything. Just the prequel bashers.

General_Grievous
03-29-2008, 12:48 AM
Lucas not only F-u**ed up, but he also has admitted it. Deal with it.
He did no such thing. He has always said that he felt no regrets and that he made the films that he wanted to make.

stillakid
03-29-2008, 11:25 AM
A) That right there is a bunch of BS, but with your tunnel vision you'll never see it. B)That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, not a fact.
Tunnel vision is the failure to see the big picture and anyone who fails to see the big picture problems with the story that the Prequel tells is the one with tunnel vision. That wouldn't accurately describe the majority of the movie-going audience on the planet.



You don't? You sure have a funny way of showing it.
Again, you take one issue and try to apply it to other things. I'll try to say it slower this time. I don't care if anyone else likes the movies or not. That's their business. Really. The issues of "liking something" and discussing the inherent problems are entirely different. How else can I explain that? :confused: I try to keep the discussions the actual issues, but many die-hard Prequel-worshipers turn to personal attacks when they are unable to successfully argue their points-of-view.


I never accused the majority of movie-goers of anything. Just the prequel bashers. That would be the majority of movie-goers. :yes:

stillakid
03-29-2008, 11:28 AM
He did no such thing. He has always said that he felt no regrets and that he made the films that he wanted to make.

While that is true, he also admitted that he was just "riffing" with the films implying that he was making them up as he went. He knows that he failed to make the movies the best they could be. It's called "spin" for the media when he says stuff like that. Check a minute of Bill O'Reilly for consistent examples of how people do that to try to get the public to buy what they're selling. :Pirate:

General_Grievous
03-29-2008, 12:38 PM
That would be the majority of movie-goers. :yes:
"Prequel-basher" is a term that usually is grouped with Star Wars fans. If you take Star Wars fans out of the mix, you've got a bunch of casual movie-goers and kids who saw the prequels. A great number of people who went to see the prequels were kids (ages 12 and under). Judging from the merchandise sales during the time each film was released, I'm assuming they liked them. Granted, a great deal of those profits are also because of collectors, but that's another story. As for casual movie-goers, they didn't completely analyze the films as Star Wars fans did. If they liked them, they liked them. If they didn't like them, they most likely didn't go around bashing the movies. A casual movie-goer would have said "They weren't as good as the originals", which is not an example of prequel bashing. If people (excluding Star Wars fans) went around saying "Anyone who likes these movies is a moron" or "George Lucas is an idiot for making these movies", then they would have been prequel-bashers. But, since they didn't, they're not. Because disliking a film and bashing a film are apples and oranges.

Droid
03-29-2008, 01:04 PM
Judging from the merchandise sales during the time each film was released, I'm assuming they liked them.

I don't know. I bought a lot of prequel merchandise and I thought the films had major problems.


A casual movie-goer would have said "They weren't as good as the originals", which is not an example of prequel bashing.

They weren't as good as the originals.

stillakid
03-29-2008, 01:52 PM
Because disliking a film and bashing a film are apples and oranges.

It sounds like you're defining the word "bashing" with ANY critique of the films that goes beyond merely stating "I didn't like it"? :confused: You allow for no gray area at all where one can enjoy the concept of Star Wars as established and defined by ANH (continued with ESB and ROTJ) yet not be afraid to admit fault with the Prequels lest such admission shake the foundation of an belief-system (ie, "if I don't like the Prequels then I must also hate the original films too! :eek: )

If that's true, than anyone who refuses to, as you say, "Bash" the Prequels is defined as a Prequel-Worshiper where George Lucas can do no wrong, is infallible, and the Prequels are entirely without fault. No? :sur:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-29-2008, 02:53 PM
It sounds like you're defining the word "bashing" with ANY critique of the films that goes beyond merely stating "I didn't like it"?
I think when the word "bashing" is used, it mostly refers to "continually talking about bad aspects of movies for several years on end." It's one thing to critique a film; it's quite another to devote an entire decade to ragging on it and those who like it, constantly bringing up old points, when many feel there are perhaps more constructive and healthy ways to spend one's time. (As for me, I'm on spring break right now, so I've got the time for this. :D )


If that's true, than anyone who refuses to, as you say, "Bash" the Prequels is defined as a Prequel-Worshiper where George Lucas can do no wrong, is infallible, and the Prequels are entirely without fault. No?
We all know that this is not true. Many of the people in these sorts of unending, pointless threads (myself included) have said that they do not automatically like all of George Lucas's projects or decisions. But you must realize that this is a website designed for Star Wars fans, so obviously there are going to be fans of Star Wars, George Lucas, and even the PT here.


Tunnel vision is the failure to see the big picture and anyone who fails to see the big picture problems with the story that the Prequel tells is the one with tunnel vision.
Perhaps. But many people also feel that these so-called "problems" are not really problems at all. They choose to discuss them in a civil manner and would prefer not to be treated like infants, but that is often way too much to ask.


Again, you take one issue and try to apply it to other things. I'll try to say it slower this time. I don't care if anyone else likes the movies or not. That's their business. Really. The issues of "liking something" and discussing the inherent problems are entirely different. How else can I explain that? I try to keep the discussions the actual issues, but many die-hard Prequel-worshipers turn to personal attacks when they are unable to successfully argue their points-of-view.
I find it ironic that you insinuate that Rocketboy is an idiot for whom you need to "say it slower" and then go on to speak against personal attacks.

As to "successfully arguing their points of view," I believe that both sides feel they are correct and that neither one will ever be able to convince the other that they are wrong. You and the anti-PT crowd feel that the pro-PT people are wrong, but it's the same feeling on the other side. Nobody stands to gain anything on either side and no one is ever going to budge.


He knows that he failed to make the movies the best they could be. It's called "spin" for the media when he says stuff like that. Check a minute of Bill O'Reilly for consistent examples of how people do that to try to get the public to buy what they're selling.
Again, thank you for the mocking tones of condescension. We are all adults here and we all know what "spin" means. I think it is unfair to compare filmmakers with pundits and politicians, though, and when we do so, we project our problems with said pundits and politicians onto filmmakers who have nothing to do with them. For the record, George Lucas and George Bush are not the same person.


I don't know. I bought a lot of prequel merchandise and I thought the films had major problems.
Can I just ask you, though, why did you buy it and thereby support a film you did not like?

Oh, and one more thing: I said earlier in this thread that Lucas was raised Lutheran, but I read an old article last night that said he was raised Methodist. Carry on.

2-1B
03-29-2008, 03:15 PM
If any of the average movie goers (whether they liked the Preeks or not) came to this site and saw that people still hammer on the same points over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (and over) again, well, they'd say that we are ALL a bunch of retards.

So it doesn't matter if I call for Lucas' head or if I desire to lick his nut sack...Joe Moviegoer thinks I'm a loser for posting here in the first place.

He thinks we're all losers.

We need to come to grips with that. Let's put aside these petty differences based on movies and join together in loser-solidarity to slay the dragon of mainstream thinking, defeat the wizard's magic of an unobsessive approach to movies, triumph over the dungeons that we are locked in by those with a normal life that does not involve posting on the interwebs.

Fighting amongst ourselves is exactly what they want because it keeps us weak and pigeon holed in our nerdery. We can rise above this.

But not until I finish writing my new character for my D&D club tonight. Plus I gotta compose a post for the new Indiana Jones thread.

But right after that, then we will all band together.

Also, Transformers was a great movie.

JimJamBonds
03-29-2008, 03:21 PM
I agree........ minus the Transformers thing.

Droid
03-29-2008, 03:49 PM
We all know that this is not true. Many of the people in these sorts of unending, pointless threads (myself included) have said that they do not automatically like all of George Lucas's projects or decisions.

I don't think you should label this thread pointless. I don't think the person that started the thread thought it was pointless. That poster was saying, "Here are things that bothered me about the Phantom Menace." Others chimed in with "that bothered me too" or "this other thing bothered me also." Someone would have been welcome to say "that didn't bother me for this reason." Instead, it quickly devolved into a familiar "everything is just fine with the prequels and why don't you bashers get a life" argument that IS too familiar around here. If someone wants to discuss the points in favor and against the prequels I think that is fine, but why do people have to say:

1. If you don't like it don't watch it.
2. This just wasn't the movie you wanted.
3. If you were a kid like you were when you saw the original trilogy you wouldn't have any problems with it.
4. So you think you could make a better movie?
5. Why don't you do something constructive with your life instead of complaining about a movie that came out nine years ago.

I think you rarely find anyone on the forums who argues the prequels were complete garbage or perfect gems. But it is easier to argue with a person who would make one of those assertions, so people just argue against those wide generalities the poster wasn't making.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue the aliens should have had silly and ethnic accents. I haven't see anyone argue that the Battle Droids were effective ominous soldiers given their goofy design and voices. I haven't seen anyone argue that it made sense that Shmi just got left on Tatooine for ten years without a Jedi or the Naboo to help her.

There has been some "we've already discussed the virgin birth in twenty threads." Well some people haven't been around here since the Phantom Menace came out and should feel welcome to discuss Star Wars with people who like Star Wars. I would suggest that if a thread feels like it is repetitive or too much of a retread then just don't participate in the discussion.

Let's focus on the points being discussed, so this thread isn't pointless, rather than arguing if the prequels were trash or gold.

Droid
03-29-2008, 03:52 PM
Can I just ask you, though, why did you buy it and thereby support a film you did not like?

Because I have never on this site anywhere stated that I did not like any of the prequel films. The Obi-wan/Qui-Gon/Darth Maul saber duel is fantastic. I enjoy the arena battle minus 3P0's role. The stuff on Mustafar can give me chills. There are elements about all three I admire a great deal, particularly the art designs and concepts of characters, aliens, vehicles, and beasts the toys are based on.

I like the toys and since I will likely not get any other prequel films I want
toys of a young Anakin, Obi-wan, etc.

It is a common assumption around here that if you are critical of elements of the prequels that you did not like them. I think they could have been better and I think they fail to match original trilogy continuity.

Mad Slanted Powers
03-29-2008, 04:22 PM
Perhaps. But many people also feel that these so-called "problems" are not really problems at all. They choose to discuss them in a civil manner and would prefer not to be treated like infants, but that is often way too much to ask.That is my perspective. Many of the points stillakid brings up are things that I don't see as a problem. Maybe on the surface it seems like it doesn't fit, but there are easy explanations. Many of the things we argue about are things the average movie-goer wouldn't notice because they aren't going to remember the little snippet of dialog they heard years ago in the OT that is supposedly contradicted by something in the prequels. Only us nitpicky Star Wars nerds are going to notice that, and if we know the movies well enough to notice the discrepancies, we probably know them well enough to find ways to explain them. That's where I see the tunnel vision on his part. I and others come up with something that makes perfect sense, but he insists that it doesn't work because there is only one way that the OT point could have been interpreted (the whole Yoda training Obi-Wan thing). Then he will say that we can only go by what is on-screen, yet he will make assumptions that aren't explicitly shown (Praji is a stormtrooper). If something is explicitly shown, then he will say that Lucas didn't need to point out things so obviously and beat us over the head with it, but instead should have been more subtle.

I see Droid has posted something while I was writing this. I was going to do a point by point assessment of the initial posters complaints, but didn't get around to it before someone else answered with many of the same arguments I would have had. Some of the complaints were some good ones of which I may not have a good answer, such as the Shmi thing. However, I didn't have a problem with any of the voices in TPM. The droid voices were much more goofy in ROTS, but it didn't really bother me. Some of the other complaints were more about aesthetic preferences than continuity.

So, I don't dispute that the prequels aren't as good or that there is nothing wrong with them. Stillakid himself has posted many threads pointing out many inconsistencies within the OT itself, so they are not perfect either. All I know is that I saw TPM and thought it was great, and still do. Only at the end of the trilogy did I become a bit disappointed that things didn't quite mesh up with the OT. So in that sense, I disagree with the premise in the title of the thread that TPM doomed anything. I thought it was a great starting point.

El Chuxter
03-29-2008, 04:37 PM
Is it worth having a heart attack or stroke over a movie? :confused:

Funny thing, I think TPM is a pretty weak movie when compared to the OT (though, arguably, the best and most "Star Wars" of the PT), but I actually disagree with many of the points in the original post. :)

Mad Slanted Powers
03-29-2008, 04:59 PM
Is it worth having a heart attack or stroke over a movie? :confused:No, but I do like the song "Heart Attack" by The Moaners, and "The Stroke" by Billy Squier. There probably would have been a lot of heart attacks or strokes if they had used "Back in Black" when we first see Vader in the suit in ROTS.

Jargo
03-29-2008, 05:59 PM
y'know, people have been pulling the original trilogy apart and analysing every tiny detail since it first opened back in the day. it's what keeps interest, the debating and rehashing of ideas and arguments is what kept star wars alive as well as the blind love for it. I fail to see why picking the prequels apart should be any different. among the OT supporters ther are those who hate ROTJ and those who only dislike parts of the movie.
Personally I'm of the opinion that ROTJ is a carp movie. I love the design work and the effects shots and the plot is ok. but the acting and direction is utter utter carp. the dialogue stinks as it does in all star wars movies but it's more obvious in ROTJ because the whole tone of the movie is wrong. that's just my opinion. because i think it sucks does that mean i don't own it or watch it? hell no. I'm appreciative of enough elements {there's stuff i love to bits that no-one else gives the time of day to} to gain enjoyment from it but it still doesn't stop me talking about the carp parts. I want to while away a few hours chatting crud about a cheesey sci-fi movie. the good and the bad. and it's exactly the same with the prequels.

besides, when the tv show airs people get a chance at a different sort of prequel. they can choose to ignore the PT movies and go with the show. or just pretend the prequels didn't happen at all. In the same way some people ignore ESB and ROTJ and claim that ANH is the only true star wars movie.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-29-2008, 06:03 PM
I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue the aliens should have had silly and ethnic accents. I haven't see anyone argue that the Battle Droids were effective ominous soldiers given their goofy design and voices. I haven't seen anyone argue that it made sense that Shmi just got left on Tatooine for ten years without a Jedi or the Naboo to help her.
I addressed all of these points in my first post in this thread.


Because I have never on this site anywhere stated that I did not like any of the prequel films.
Well, you said earlier in this thread that you saw major problems with at least TPM, so perhaps I misinterpreted that.

I think my main problem here is not the discussion itself, but the way in which it is so often handled. I realize I am guilty of sometimes going "over the top" or whatever but it's only in response to similar attitudes.

Can't we all just get along? :D

CaptainSolo1138
03-29-2008, 06:20 PM
..........

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-29-2008, 07:33 PM
..........
Hey there young man, you're the one that turned this thread into a skirmish in the first place! :eek:

CaptainSolo1138
03-29-2008, 08:33 PM
Hey there young man, you're the one that turned this thread into a skirmish in the first place! :eek:
Whatevs. I think that its hilarious that every thread in here pretty much boils down to this. :rehash:

Mad Slanted Powers
03-29-2008, 09:05 PM
Okay, here is my attempt to address the points of the original post.


I thought the Phantom Menance had the tools to be one of the top Star Wars films but Lucas doomed it from the beginning.

1. He made it a children's film by inserting all the childish level comedy surrounding Jar Jar Binks.There was a brilliant editorial entitled "The Case for Jar Jar" that was once posted on TheForce.net, but I can't seem to find it anymore. I did manage to save it though. It goes into great detail talking about how Jar Jar fits a lot of the mythological archetypes such as the fool/jester and the frog-prince. He also talks about how in many ways he embodies the Living Force that Qui-Gon speaks of. He just kind of goes with the flow, and yet he somehow manages to wreak all sorts of havoc on the droids without even trying. Even the scat humor is directed at him, a sign of his status in the Star Wars universe. I don't have a problem with there being a character that children can relate to, because I don't think it makes it strictly a children's movie. Having one of the main characters impaled with a lightsaber and burned in a funeral pyre hardly seems like children's fare.


2. The voice overs of the alien spieces were also border line comical. He would have been better off inventing languages and using subtests.I can understand the droid voices being comical, but I didn't have any trouble with any of the aliens. Besides, with all of those children in the theater, that would have meant even more of people talking trying to tell their kids what it says.


3. Jake Llyod as Anakin Skywalker. Everything here was wrong! He played this part too young but yet some off the lines in the script were ridiculous. The second time he meets Padme, he invites her to HIS PLACE to wait out the storm. Every other 10 year old would invite them back to his and his mother's home. It is like he is hitting on her because when he first meets her he asks her if she is an angel. She is dressed and looks like any other human girl on Tatooine, is he hitting on her again?As a kid, I don't think I ever asked people to come over to "my and my parents' house." I would just say "my house." She may have been dressed much like the locals, but she was probably more beautiful than any other girl he had seen before. People complain about his acting, but they also complain about Hayden's acting, and even Mark Hamill's acting. Maybe that was the intention. I see young Anakin as being like Martin from the Simpsons. He doesn't seem to have any inhibitions about speaking up, even if he comes across as dorky. His friends make fun of him. Combining that with his slave life and special abilities, he's not going to act like most kids you know.


4. He and his mother are suppose to be slaves? They have their own place way across town, you would think they would live next to the shop. He is 10 years old has a robot and a pod racer, that his master doesn't know about. How does a 10 year old slave build a pod racer that his master doesn't know about?As was pointed out, the tracking device would be all the security that Watto needs. He probably doesn't care what they do as long as they report to work when he wants them, so he probably doesn't come by and check to see that there are no pods being built. However, since Anakin's friends know about it, that might make the secret hard to keep.


5. Qui-Gon Jinn wants to keep a low profile after they escape Naboo. So he takes a Gungan with him (a species only found on Naboo) as he searches for a hyperdrive. A person, who got exiled from of his own city because of his culmliness and stands out like a red flag. Gungan's a species that live under water but the heat of Tatooine did not seem to bother Jar Jar?Perhaps he went with him due to the life debt thing, and Jar Jar did complain about the heat. Also, the Hutts aren't looking for them and they don't expect to be found quickly, and certainly not by a Sith. Obi-Wan said that if the plan failed that they could be stuck for a long time.


6. The voices he gives to trade federation's robot soldiers "roger, Roger!" are as bad as the aliens.Not as bad as they would get in ROTS.


7. Mace Windu saying that Jinn's attacker can't be a sith and then sends Obi-wan and Jinn to protect the Queen and hopefully draw out the Sith!Actually, he says "Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of this dark warrior. That is the clue we need to unravel the mystery of the Sith."


8. Padme saying to Anakin after they leave Tatooine that she really cares for him, they just met (she's 15/16 and he is 10). Now let's put this in prospective she is a Queen of a whole planet that has just been invaded and her people are being killed and tortured, including her family. But, yet she finds time to become emotionly attached to a 10 year old boy?She spent a fair amount of time with him on Tatooine, and he was responsible for helping them get off the planet. It's natural she would develop some feelings for him. I don't take it to mean romantic feelings though.


9. Two Sith, no further than a Super Star Destroyer away from a whole temple of Jedi Masters, Knights and Padawans and yet no one ever picks up that the dark side is at work in the Senate chambers? How everyone above the age 10 in the audience knew that Paplatine was the head sith from the get go was the worst directing of a trilogy!Yoda himself says "Hard to see the Dark Side is" when Mace Windu says that he did not believe the Sith could have returned without them knowing. If you knew nothing of Star Wars before seeing TPM, I don't think it was that obvious that Palpatine was Sidious. Only the shot at the end gives some foreshadowing of that. Other than that, he just comes across as an ambitious politician. As was noted earlier, some people who follow Star Wars closely weren't entirely convinced. That would have been an interesting twist if it had turned out that Sidious was actually controlling Palpatine, or if Palpatine was a clone of Sidious.


10. Why didn't Jinn leave Anakin at the Jedi Temple where it was safe and he could of started his training. The whole time during the battle he is telling Anakin to find a safe place to hide. If you were so worried about the boy, why take him into the war zone.The temple had not accecpted him, so for the time being he was in Qui-Gon's care. Also, Qui-Gon was sort of training him "off the record." He told Anakin that he wasn't allowed to train him, but that he should watch and be mindful.


11. Anakin promises his mother he will free her, after Naboo is free don't you think Padme would givin' him enough money to do this considering their whole relationship on the Naboo starship and what he did from them. I can keep going but I will stop here to get your feedback.This is a good point. As far as Padmé not doing anything, maybe there was too much going on back on Naboo as they tried to recover from the invasion. Maybe the Jedi had something to do with it, not wanting her to interfere with Anakin's training. I think they should have showed some conflict between Anakin and the Jedi as a result of him not getting there in time to save his mother. I think that Episode II or III should have had Anakin leave the order (either by choice or by expulsion), but have Obi-Wan come back to get him to go on another mission to save the Republic.


Plus.. Lucas kills one of his greatest creations DARTH MAUL! I would have rather seen Count Dooku die here!!He was just another pawn in Palpatine's game. Dooku was necessary so that they could have someone with legitimate credentials to lead the separatist movement. It also helps add to the reasons Palpatine can use to portray the Jedi in a negative light to the general public.

Rocketboy
03-29-2008, 11:50 PM
Tunnel vision is the failure to see the big picture and anyone who fails to see the big picture problems with the story that the Prequel tells is the one with tunnel vision. And only seeing so called "plotholes" where there are none is seeing the big picture clearly, eh?


Again, you take one issue and try to apply it to other things. No I didn't.


I'll try to say it slower this time.Make sure it's really slow, because mommy and daddy say I'm "special" and need a little extra time with some things.


I don't care if anyone else likes the movies or not. That's their business. Really.Ah, bullsh*t. You never fail to be the wet blanket on any remotely positive prequel discussion.


The issues of "liking something" and discussing the inherent problems are entirely different. How else can I explain that? :confused: Try slower. Maybe I'll understand it then.


I try to keep the discussions the actual issues, but many die-hard Prequel-worshipers turn to personal attacks when they are unable to successfully argue their points-of-view.Yeah, you're a good one to blame someone for personal attacks. The only difference is that you don't attack directly. You disguise and side-step your attacks just enough so you don't get in "trouble."


That would be the majority of movie-goers. :yes:Talk about a generalization...why not just say humanity or carbon-based life forms?

Deoxyribonucleic
03-30-2008, 01:30 AM
No, but I do like the song "Heart Attack" by The Moaners, and "The Stroke" by Billy Squier.

Exsqueeeeze me, but what about "Heart Attack" by Olivia Newton John? HELLO?


;)


BTW Caesar, how did the sac taste? ;)

Mad Slanted Powers
03-30-2008, 02:50 AM
Exsqueeeeze me, but what about "Heart Attack" by Olivia Newton John? HELLO?Oh yeah, I had a crush on her after watching Xanadu years ago.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-30-2008, 02:15 PM
If we're going there, you AT LEAST need to mention Queen's "Sheer Heart Attack" - the song or the album, your choice. I heard the song may make an appearance in an upcoming Deucey three-quel . . . but we'll see.

2-1B
03-30-2008, 04:02 PM
BTW Caesar, how did the sac taste? ;)

a bit nutty. :p

Slicker
04-05-2008, 09:03 PM
I just farted and it smells like Chernobyl.

Battle Droid
04-06-2008, 11:32 AM
12. The absence of 2-1B, which immediately made it one of the 3 worst Star Wars movies along with Attack of the Clones and A New Hope.

There's some 2-1Bs in Watto's junkyard.

stillakid
04-06-2008, 11:45 AM
There's some 2-1B's in Watto's junkyard.

Yep. They're sitting next to Frank Darabont's version of the screenplay. You have to strain to see them, but they're there.

2-1B
04-06-2008, 09:47 PM
There's some 2-1Bs in Watto's junkyard.

Awesome ! Looks canon to me ! :thumbsup:

Shouldn't he be in AOTC and ANH as well ? ;)

parana
04-12-2008, 03:32 AM
Response to Mad Slanted Powers!


Well, I stand by my original post. The comedy routine with Jar Jar, if Lucas would have taken out or lessen the absurity of a few of the acts or better voice or combination of but he didn't puts a childish feel to the movie.

On Jake Llyod, the script was part of the problem but your argument doesn't win me over. I never heard any complain about Hamill's portray of Skywalker and I thought he did a great job of it.

As to the slave thing, how did Watto ever find out Anakin to drive a pod in the first place? He is ten, right? How Did Watto notice his ability when he was 5 and had to take his test to drive a landspeeder. He is a slave! how does he get behind a wheel/handle of a pod/speederbike or etc. especially at age 9 or younger? It just does hold up, no matter how you want to spin it!

How was padme about to fool two Jedi when she and her bodyguard switched places. Jedi are suppose to be able to detect lies and falsehoods.

As the voice overs, yes there always could be better ones and there will always worse ones but those could have been better!

As to Mace's sith comment: first he says there are no sith then he sends them to uncover the mystery of the Sith. RIGHT! Jinn is possible going to fight the Sith and he is taking a 10 year old boy, that he wants trained as a Jedi and cares about, into a warzone and has a sith chasing him. Yet, in a temple full of Jedi, he has no one he can in trust the boy into their care until he gets back. Yoda or hia ex-master Count Dooku? Again it makes no sense.

The one I may give you is on Palpatine being a Sith. Maybe I am just really, really, really good at picking stuff like that out in movies. So I will concede that point to you.

A lot of these issues I would argue if we were agrue the book instead of the movie. I thought TPM had tons of fantastic parts and I own it and have watched it many times. Although, I do use the mute button and fast forward a couple of times. Thanks Droid for the great post!

Mad Slanted Powers
04-12-2008, 04:02 AM
As to the slave thing, how did Watto ever find out Anakin to drive a pod in the first place? He is ten, right? How Did Watto notice his ability when he was 5 and had to take his test to drive a landspeeder. He is a slave! how does he get behind a wheel/handle of a pod/speederbike or etc. especially at age 9 or younger? It just does hold up, no matter how you want to spin it!I knew kids that were riding motorcycles by age 9. I'm sure that some start younger. Anakin had a talent for fixing things, so maybe he worked on a pod or two and maybe he took one for a spin one time and Watto saw he had an ability for it.


How was padme about to fool two Jedi when she and her bodyguard switched places. Jedi are suppose to be able to detect lies and falsehoods.I'm not sure if it was in the novel or just someplace I read an explanation, but it was said that Qui-Gon actually knew. The expression he has on his face is kind of the opposite of the surprise that Anakin and others show when she reveals her identity.



As to Mace's sith comment: first he says there are no sith then he sends them to uncover the mystery of the Sith.He never said there were no Sith, he just said he didn't believe they could have returned without them knowing. The mystery of the Sith was just that, a mystery. Was he or wasn't he a Sith. He told them to go find the identity of the "Dark Warrior".

JON9000
04-12-2008, 08:18 AM
I'm not sure if it was in the novel or just someplace I read an explanation, but it was said that Qui-Gon actually knew. The expression he has on his face is kind of the opposite of the surprise that Anakin and others show when she reveals her identity.

I thought Qui-Gonn knew at least from the point he told Padme to stay behind with the ship. Later, observe the knowing look when Padme reveals her true identity. I suppose it isn't obvious, but given the fact that some people are complaining about being hit over the head with things and others are now saying things were too obscure or required too much inference, it is apparent that you'll never please all of the people all of the time.

mabudonicus
04-21-2008, 03:22 PM
Man, a ruined Deuce makes me hate that film even more :D

Seriously, what could EVER happen to him to make him useless?? Answer- NOTHING, that is just ridiculous and I will not watch that film ever again
:bored: Iso&Baws
Seriously, deuce in a junkyard?? BYAAAHHH!!

El Chuxter
04-21-2008, 03:27 PM
Those aren't the Deuce. Those are his brothers, the Once, the Tres, the Catorce, and the Quince. And two other guys that bear a slight resemblance in profile, but who have Snidely Whiplash moustaches and therefore can't be mistaken for him in frontal view.

They were all just chilling, looking for broken-down robot babes in the junkyard. They know their brother gets all the girls.

mabudonicus
04-21-2008, 03:46 PM
Okay man, thinking of if you DID have a 5th Deuce and calling him "the quince" is somehow really funny to me, I just might have to get a few more so as to actually posess such a thing
:bored: Iso&Baws
The Quince (like the berries I'd figure)

Mad Slanted Powers
04-21-2008, 08:20 PM
Man, a ruined Deuce makes me hate that film even more :D

Seriously, what could EVER happen to him to make him useless?? Answer- NOTHING, that is just ridiculous and I will not watch that film ever again
:bored: Iso&Baws
Seriously, deuce in a junkyard?? BYAAAHHH!!
That just adds to his legend. He arose from the junk heap to become the greatest droid in the galaxy! He is indestructible!

2-1B
04-23-2008, 01:07 AM
Mabs, you're not being fair to TPM...in ROTJ we see The Deuce RIPPED THE F*CK APART
IN A TORTURE ROOM for deuce's sake ! ! ! :eek:

Those units in TPM are just resting.

Besides, in ROTJ even though he gets messed up, he's still back to mint condition during the rebel briefing scene.

:2-1B:

:immortal:

: phantom menace rocks :

El Chuxter
04-23-2008, 01:20 AM
In ROTJ, that was the little-known sixth 1B brother, Chico-1B.