PDA

View Full Version : I think there should be Nazi action figures



Tycho
05-02-2008, 01:04 PM
I think there should be Nazi figures. The more common place they are, the less interesting they are. To be restricted, forbidden, it invites more intrigue in the attitude those that want to be deviant show towards them.

Once upon a time, I wanted to be a Satanist, not really knowing anything about what Satanism was about, and likely not believing there actually was a Satan (I don't now and likely never did). But I liked the idea of shocking people with "how bad I could be." If marching around with a swastika on (or buying a brigade of Nazi action figures and posting pictures of them) is a way to get negative attention, you can trust me, the more deviant it is, the more appealing it will be. It's the same with hanging nooses.

Being prejudiced is a little different from being racist. I think the latter actually pursues acts and policies that discriminate, the former just holds (often negative) preconceptions - which can be destructive - but are not necessarily intended with malice.

Modern Nazi worship, down to the level of negative attention seeking for amassing Hitler's army with action figures, is different from advocating Jew-hatred and trying to promote genocide and fascist totalitarianism.

However, I am certain that since my family did not experience the Holocaust and I was born more than another generation after that, I cannot feel the same way about seeing the swastika as a person who's around 60-90 years old today.

They will have different sensibilities about their grandchildren playing with Nazi action figures.

I honestly don't relate and would not predict even a "Concentration Camp Liberation Playset" would promote history repeating itself and another Holocaust.

Actually, with questions about taste and video games out there like Grand Theft Auto IV, why hasn't someone created "Border-Runner" where you play a Mexican national trying to outwit the Border Patrol and sneak illegals into the USA? They could even market the game in English and Spanish!

CaptainSolo1138
05-02-2008, 01:42 PM
Rancor Pit in 5, 4, 3...

Don't they already make Nazi action figures? I can;t think of what they're called, but they're always sold 5 or 6 to a pack and include a little scene. Like they'll sell the German 502nd with a Norman bunker or something. They're pretty awesome, but a touch on the high end of "price relative to value".

JEDIpartner
05-02-2008, 01:43 PM
They didn't make any for the new Indy line?

LTBasker
05-02-2008, 01:57 PM
There's plenty of Nazi figures, actually.

- Plan B Toys made a 6" World War II line that consisted of one wave with 3 Nazis, 3 Allies (Americans), 3 exclusives; SS Elite Sniper, American trooper and accessory pack. Of course, this line was pulled from stores months after it's release due to the Nazi soldiers. I think because they were very detailed and included the "offensive" logos. They're supposed to be making more WWII figures, but they're a very small company so no clue when that might actually happen.

- 21st Century Toys is making plenty of Nazi figures in the 3 3/4" scale, as well as plenty of their vehicles.

- A company called Dusty Trail had a line of pre-posed 6" figures (like McFarlane) that consisted of 1-2 Nazis, one with a very nice looking and well-feared MG42. They were going to have a second wave, but due to the poor sales of wave 1 they canceled it, and seem to have gone under.

- I think McFarlane is going to be producing Nazis in their WWII line, but not sure.

- Disney's exclusive Indiana Jones line had a Nazi soldier that included a wooden crate that shockingly had the Nazi logo complete with swastika. Seen here: http://www.mwctoys.com/REVIEW_110703b.htm

- Finally, there are Nazis in the Hasbro line.

- There's also been a 12" Hitler figure, I believe.

Obviously the usual common factor with all Nazi figures is that the infamous swastika and other logos are replaced with less offensive versions (excluding the Disney version), but that's probably not going to change anytime soon. I'm guessing the only reason that Disney got away with the swastika is because it's replicating a movie instead of the other lines. Though, Hasbro seems to have ducked their head away from the mob of angry soccer moms that would call in if they included the swastika on their Indy line Nazis.

JediTricks
05-02-2008, 02:22 PM
By all means, let's trivialize the most horrific evil of the last hundred years by turning it into mass-produced children's toys, thereby removing all meaning from the swastika and what it stood for, further whitewashing one of the most despicable acts of human behavior to ever befall mankind.

bigbarada
05-02-2008, 02:33 PM
While we're at it, let's have a 9/11 themed toy line. There would be Al Queda figures with box cutters and "Airline Piloting for Dummies" books and innocent civilian figures (each with a charred corpse variant), along with a large sized jetliner vehicle and a giant WTC playset with breakaway sections. The playset would be tall enough to allow kids to recreate New Yorkers jumping to their death as the building burned around them.:rolleyes:

El Chuxter
05-02-2008, 02:51 PM
...removing all meaning from the swastika and what it stood for....

If you want to get down to it, isn't that what Hitler and the Nazis did, turning a symbol with positive meaning in various cultures into what will forever be seen as a symbol of hatred and evil?

Droid
05-02-2008, 02:53 PM
No toy should include a swastika. I don't care if it is used for a diorama or if it is from a movie.

No child should be in a store and be confronted with that.

Can you imagine for one second if you were a Holocaust survivor or family member of a Holocaust survivor and saw that the swastika was being included on children's toys?

I would certainly hope that Steven Spielberg would put a stop to that in the Hasbro line and that it would be removed from any further Disney releases.

The very idea that DISNEY is selling or has sold toys with swastikas on them is beyond comprehension.

And though I predict the Indy line will never reach the scope of the Star Wars line, it would be an unbelievable outrage if they made an Adolph Hitler figure. And what angers me is that he would probably eventually top the fan's most requested list like he was the Tonnika Sisters or something.

The toy collecting community can lose perspective at times.

El Chuxter
05-02-2008, 02:58 PM
A Hitler figure in Indiana Jones would be slightly different from a figure of Hussein or Stalin or bin Laden, simply because he actually was a character in The Last Crusade (in an unusually funny moment, given that it was one of history's most evil dictators).

I'm not saying there should be a Hitler figure in the line, but he did play a bigger role in the movie than an awful lot of the Star Wars characters who've been made.

JediTricks
05-02-2008, 03:16 PM
If you want to get down to it, isn't that what Hitler and the Nazis did, turning a symbol with positive meaning in various cultures into what will forever be seen as a symbol of hatred and evil?Yes, the Nazis felt they were the carrier descendants of the original Aryans and adopted the symbol as their own. What they did with it salted that symbol's earth for thousands of generations, there can be no fertile soil after what that symbol stood for in their hands. And unfortunately, the true view of history is fading fast thanks to short-sightedness, the Iron Cross is another symbol that the Nazis perverted but today it's just another shape attached to CD binders and purses bought at Hot Topic - now it has no meaning at all except to the older generations who still remember that it was perverted into ultimate evil.


And though I predict the Indy line will never reach the scope of the Star Wars line, it would be an unbelievable outrage if they made an Adolph Hitler figure. And what angers me is that he would probably eventually top the fan's most requested list like he was the Tonnika Sisters or something.

The toy collecting community can lose perspective at times.Excellent point, right on the mark.


A Hitler figure in Indiana Jones would be slightly different from a figure of Hussein or Stalin or bin Laden, simply because he actually was a character in The Last Crusade (in an unusually funny moment, given that it was one of history's most evil dictators).

I'm not saying there should be a Hitler figure in the line, but he did play a bigger role in the movie than an awful lot of the Star Wars characters who've been made.That right there shows exactly what I'm getting at, even though Spielberg made Hitler a villain in Last Crusade in a scene that was chilling and frightening even to Indiana Jones himself, because it ended in a jokey way we now feel free to see the monster as toothless and less dangerous than he really was. Hitler may have loved his dogs and been a vegetarian, but he was not "cute", he wasn't "silly ol' Adolph", he was a monster of the worst regard because he was able to cause others to do such misdeeds while being merely a normal person. We should neither paint him as a scary impossible movie monster nor a declawed scamp, either way we deny what he truly did and how any individual can do the most vile of the worst acts humanity can inflict. If a PG-13 adventure movie can have such impact, consider what a mass-produced children's toy might do for the Nazi image.

El Chuxter
05-02-2008, 03:23 PM
I'm not advocating a Hitler figure. I wouldn't buy one. However, I wouldn't have a problem with one in the Indiana Jones line under two conditions:

1) The figure would have to be pre-posed and obviously scene-specific to the book signing scene,
and 2) The figure would have to be only available as an exclusive on hasbrotoyshop.com, and would have to have a price point that made it prohibitive for kids to buy him.

If he showed up at Wal-Mart for $5, I'd definitely have an issue with that.

I also don't think the scene in Last Crusade made him "toothless and less dangerous than he really was." On the contrary, the scene it set up to be ominous, and makes it clear that Hitler, having no reason to believe an American agent disguised as a Nazi was running around with a diary containing the whereabouts of the Holy Grail and with a legion of stormtroopers after him, simply assumed he was a normal German soldier. He may not even have known the specific details of the Nazi's search for the Grail. If not for mistaken identity (which, again, Hitler had no reason to suspect this guy in a German uniform of anything), Indy would've been dead right there. No question. It's sort of the swordsman gag taken to the ultimate level.

bigbarada
05-02-2008, 03:32 PM
I'm not advocating a Hitler figure. I wouldn't buy one. However, I wouldn't have a problem with one in the Indiana Jones line under two conditions:

1) The figure would have to be pre-posed and obviously scene-specific to the book signing scene,
and 2) The figure would have to be only available as an exclusive on hasbrotoyshop.com, and would have to have a price point that made it prohibitive for kids to buy him.

If he showed up at Wal-Mart for $5, I'd definitely have an issue with that.

I also don't think the scene in Last Crusade made him "toothless and less dangerous than he really was." On the contrary, the scene it set up to be ominous, and makes it clear that Hitler, having no reason to believe an American agent disguised as a Nazi was running around with a diary containing the whereabouts of the Holy Grail and with a legion of stormtroopers after him, simply assumed he was a normal German soldier. It's sort of the swordsman gag taken to the ultimate level.

IF the Indy line has enough legs to last beyond 2008 and IF Hasbro ever does decide to make a Hitler figure for that one scene, then I see it being a mail-away or fan-club exclusive and being named something generic like Evil Dictator. They'd probably even go so far as to leave off his moustache (which would instantly identify him as Hitler), thus fans who wanted him to be movie accurate could simply draw that detail in themselves. But I believe it would take years and years to convince Hasbro to even consider this figure.

However, I honestly don't believe that there is enough material in the Indy films for a toy line that even comes close to Star Wars, so arguing over whether this figure should be made is a moot point.

Blue2th
05-02-2008, 03:45 PM
You can already buy a 1:18 set of 12 figures from a certain retailer, and occasionally these make it to eBay put with various WWII German vehicles.
These guys are in the black uniforms of the SS, armbands and all.

I for one won't buy them, because they sybolize the worst part of Germany during WWII.
There were many good German soldiers who were just doing their job, who were honorable. Who either did not know of the genocide or did not agree with it, or certainly did not like the idiot Corporal running things.

Rommel (some say the smartest WWII general) had to commit mandatory suicide or his family would die, because of his involvement in the Hitler asassination attempt.
I have no problem buying Wermact officers, pilots and regular soldiers to go with my many 1:18 Ultimate Soldier vehicles and playsets.

Besides the "Allied" action figures and their many vehicles need an enemy to fight.

stillakid
05-02-2008, 03:51 PM
No toy should include a swastika. I don't care if it is used for a diorama or if it is from a movie.

No child should be in a store and be confronted with that.

Can you imagine for one second if you were a Holocaust survivor or family member of a Holocaust survivor and saw that the swastika was being included on children's toys?

Maybe they could replace the swastika with walkie-talkies. ;)


I don't have the "correct" answer to this dilemma (to include real life "evil" symbols on toys) and maybe there isn't any. So take this for what it's worth... those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. For better or worse, the NAZI's in the Indiana Jones movies were portrayed as fairly generic "bad guys." The only reference to Jews and the Holocaust came near the end of Raiders when the officer expressed his concern over this "Jewish ritual." That said, my personal belief is that if all symbols of who the bad guys in those movies are removed, that essentially whitewashes, and arguably excuses, those particular bad guys from the real evil that was done. Kid's who are not exposed to WHY the Nazi's are bad guys are in more danger of glorifying the bad guy toys out due to sheer ignorance.

Would some people become upset or worse upon finding a swastika on the toy aisle? Maybe. But is that doing more harm than having a generation of children buying Nazi soldiers without a clue of what it actually means?

Like I said, there probably is no right or wrong answer to this, just opinions. While I'd err on the side of education and not hiding the shame of the bad guys to save a couple of people from getting upset, I can also see how jarring it could be to just about everyone to find such a thing at Toys R Us. For whatever reason, nobody cowers or protests over Civil War toys (army men) or Cowboys & Indians (who were the bad guys anyway?). So what makes Nazis so different from any other "bad guys" in the toy aisle that children should be sheltered from the real history that inspired the toy?

bigbarada
05-02-2008, 03:57 PM
You can already buy a 1:18 set of 12 figures from a certain retailer, and occasionally these make it to eBay put with various WWII German vehicles.
These guys are in the balck uniforms of the SS.

I for one won't buy them, because they sybolize the worst part of Germany during WWII.
There were many good German soldiers who were just doing their job, who were honorable. Who either did not know of the genocide or did not agree with it, or certainly did not like the idiot Corporal running things.
Rommel (some say the smartest WWII general) had to commit mandatory suicide or his family would die, because of his involvement in the Hitler asassination attempt.
I have no problem buying Wermact officers, pilots and regular soldiers to go with my many 1:18 Ultimate Soldier vehicles and playsets.

Besides the "Allied" action figures and their many vehicles need an enemy to fight.

Many of the German soldiers and civilians alive during WW2 were essentially hostages of the Nazi regime. They couldn't escape, speak out or fight back because they would just be killed and that would be the end of it. Was it a result of cowardice? Of course, but your average person is cowardly by nature, so they're no worse than any of us. So I don't see any problems at all with making German soldier figures.

The companies that do make the Nazi figures usually end up being more along the lines of high-end collectible dolls. So it's difficult to claim that they are trying to sell Nazism to children.

El Chuxter
05-02-2008, 03:58 PM
I sort of have to agree with stillakid. I've mentioned before how disturbing it is that, at least in the area of San Diego where my niece goes to school, there's not a single mention of Nazis until ninth or tenth grade. Not one. I'm not saying they should know details, but I recall learning in elementary school that the Nazis were the bad guys in World War II, and they killed a lot of people.

If you really think about it, though, is it any less disturbing that Hasbro makes so many Vader figures? Yes, he's a fictional character, but his imaginary deeds are as bad as or worse than Hitler. He tortures his daughter. He personally kills a roomful of preschool kids. He chokes his wife to death. He is complicit in the destruction of an entire planet. Isn't selling Vader figures, to some extent, glorifying his deeds?

As for Nazi soldiers in an Indiana Jones line, they're necessary. Probably a good idea to remove the swastikas, but not a good idea to eliminate them. Two of the three original movies featured only Nazis and their accomplices as the villains. And, since the schools don't appear to be doing it, it's important that kids somehow learn about how evil these SOBs were.

I think it's kinda interesting, too, that some of the people protesting the loudest in this thread that Nazi figures might be made available to kids are the same folks who argue that kids never buy Star Wars figures when they want Third Separatist From The Left In Scene 49's Personal Secretary made as a figure.

Tycho
05-02-2008, 04:13 PM
Stillakid essentially repeated what I originally expressed and I agree with him.

Let's not shelter people from the truth by white-washing history in a toy line.

I honestly think that selling Nazi action figures as "the bad guys" is totally different from vanalizing a school by marking it with swastikas or hanging nooses.

Remember the Moff Jerjerrod figure we all complained about - because he was sculpted scowling and hostile-looking when we all saw him as a timid man frightened of Vader? Well, with Nazi figures they could finally sculpt scowling bad-guy sorts, looking hostile.

As to comments about al-Qaeda figures - why not make them enemies of GI Joe? And I think that bad guy leaders (likely dead ones so we don't glorify the living that seek attention like Ahmendinejad - or make mistakes and base their "badness" on propoganda) are fair game. This would allow for a Hitler figure, but not Bin Laden.

El Chuxter
05-02-2008, 04:15 PM
GIJoe is quite happy defending human rights and freedoms against Cobra: a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world!

(Joes and their USSR counterparts fought side-by-side against Cobra a few times. I can't see either Al Qaeda or Cobra siding with the Joes to fight the other, though. Or with each other to fight the Joes.)

mabudonicus
05-02-2008, 04:17 PM
Funny you call Ahmedinejad a "Bad Guy Leader"- and I thought you didn't "buy in" Tycho :D

Tycho
05-02-2008, 04:21 PM
Well not to side-track this thread too much, Cobra is the traditional enemy of GI Joe and it'd be strange to not have them. Like you wouldn't have the Autobots without Decepticons.

Some more real world "moral truths" could be brought into GI Joe by having Cobra accept an al-Qaeda contract to make trouble for the West, but not to the extent of sacraficing traditional characters like Cobra Commander, Baroness, Destro, Zartan, etc. Cobra could just take on employment as mercenaries to serve their own means to an end.

It would make the whole thing more pointed and relevant in today's world. But you know me: I'm not the escapist that some of you are. I like taking on the real world and trying to figure out how to solve its problems. Using fiction and fantasy is one vehicle for doing so - to me anyway.

bigbarada
05-02-2008, 04:27 PM
Well not to side-track this thread too much, Cobra is the traditional enemy of GI Joe and it'd be strange to not have them. Like you wouldn't have the Autobots without Decepticons.

Some more real world "moral truths" could be brought into GI Joe by having Cobra accept an al-Qaeda contract to make trouble for the West, but not to the extent of sacraficing traditional characters like Cobra Commander, Baroness, Destro, Zartan, etc. Cobra could just take on employment as mercenaries to serve their own means to an end.

It would make the whole thing more pointed and relevant in today's world. But you know me: I'm not the escapist that some of you are. I like taking on the real world and trying to figure out how to solve its problems. Using fiction and fantasy is one vehicle for doing so - to me anyway.

Well, I think actions of modern terrorist groups could be drawn upon to make Cobra more of a real threat in the GI Joe universe and less of a joke.

If they were to re-imagine Cobra Commander, Destro, Baroness, Zartan, etc. as sadists and murderers (as well as intellectually brilliant - taking a page from the Nazis), then they would make much more effective villains rather than the harmless, power mad clowns of the cartoon.

Tycho
05-02-2008, 04:27 PM
Funny you call Ahmedinejad a "Bad Guy Leader"- and I thought you didn't "buy in" Tycho :D

I don't necessarily. Note I posted that I didn't want him made as an action figure, because the jury is still out on his role in history. What if he's NOT a bad guy?

That's why I see it as different to make Pol Pot or Saddam Hussein into figures. We have evidence of what they did and history has passed irrefutable judgement. Just the same, they were not featured in an Indiana Jones movie, so the point is muted somewhat.

Meanwhile, making a Bin Laden action figure will just feed into his ego while he's still alive to enjoy it and cause more terror. Yes, he might be complicit with American elements involved in 9-11. We have a reasonable motive to turn to that helps us doubt "the official 9-11-01 account" of what happened. But it would be too confusing to sell Dubya as a bad guy figure. Who would the good guys be? Duke and Gung Ho trying to overthrow the American government? It could really become chaotic and border on treason - and by a toy company?!? Crazy.

El Chuxter
05-02-2008, 04:28 PM
In the comics, Destro has supplied various terrorist groups with weapons, Cobra has worked with fictional analogues of guys like Saddam Hussein, and, during their 7-year hiatus, Cobra Commander apparently worked as an advisor to various real-world terrorist groups.

Long term, though, their ideals and goals are too vastly different.

And Zartan has overcome his brainwashing and somewhat reformed again. Same thing with Storm Shadow. Destro and Baroness seem unable to shake off the brainwashing that undid their reformations and turned them back into Cobra agents. (Seriously, this was sorta a problem in the first comic series. The villains were developed so much, a lot of even the most heinous of them wound up reformed. The last story arc was about Cobra Commander brainwashing them all to rejoin Cobra to restore its former glory, but, alas, the story was cut short before it could be finished.)

BigB, if whoever has the rights to do the Joe comic as of this summer (it's likely either Marvel or IDW, but no announcement's been made) reprints the stories that have come thus far, I have a feeling you might like them. Cobra Commander was a ruthless SOB who once even killed a boatload of his own elite guys simply because a few of them had betrayed him. (This included his killing Dr Mindbender, and believing he'd killed Zartan, Firefly, and his own son, though all three survived.)

Tycho
05-02-2008, 04:33 PM
We really got a GI Joe tangent going on here, LOL.


- taking a page from the Nazis), then [Cobra] would make much more effective villains rather than the harmless, power mad clowns of the cartoon.

True. But part of their "charm" is they are "power mad clowns" from a cartoon.

Remember that scene in Transformers when Sam explains that Megatron's evil plan is to use the All-Spark to transform the machines on earth to do his bidding and then use that power to take control of the universe?

It sounds ridiculous, but it does make the movie fun as anything and "lightens it" a little.

I still would have had the Decepticons raiding earth for its natural resources, especially oil, given the modern-day crisis AND the traditions from the cartoon - energon cubes, etc. But that one line Shia LeBouf throws out there to the Sector-7 agents was pretty funny.

I have a hard time picturing even Megatron taking control of the universe.

Blue2th
05-02-2008, 05:30 PM
Maybe if they made a "final duel" Bin Laden. One you could squeeze and red fluid comes out of his eyes and mouth. Or "bloody stump" version like Luke's hand only with different parts much like Jango.
Maybe a "crispy" post bunker-buster version.

Deoxyribonucleic
05-02-2008, 06:56 PM
someone beat you all to it...

Axis of Evil Action Figures by PlasticGod.

Jedi_Kal-El
05-02-2008, 07:34 PM
Indiana Jones just released some Nazi figures. There you go Tycho, have at 'em bud.

Edit: Where did you find that pic at Deox? Those are too freakin funny.

Droid
05-02-2008, 07:46 PM
1. You do not whitewash history by not having toys with that symbol on it. You belittle what happend in history by making toys with the symbol on it. I don't really think the only way you can remember what happened is through toys. We would be whitewashing history if you didn't have the Holocaust museum or movies like Schindler's List, not if people couldn't re-create the diary signing joke in their dioramas.

2. I can not fathom the idea of Hasbro making extra money off Hitler figures by making him a premium figure that costs extra so kids couldn't afford it. I can not imagine the feather in the fan club's hat being that it could sell a Hitler figure. It is unthinkable that if you bought all of the figures in the line you could send away for a free Hitler figure.

Do we really think someone should see an action figure being sold of the person responsible for the murder of a family member?

The difference between Hitler and the cowboys and Indians is that the Holocaust is recent history. People remember it and survived it. Though I don't say there should ever be toys of Hitler or with the Nazi symbol, it is clearly too soon for that.

bigbarada
05-02-2008, 08:32 PM
Well, cowboy and indian toys are just generic archetypes and fictional characters based on those archetypes, not specific people who we KNOW committed horrible crimes.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-02-2008, 08:45 PM
What about a kid whose dad was mauled to death by a bear? Should he or she have to be confronted by all of the teddy bears and such in the toy aisle?

The swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) has a long history as a good luck symbol and as a religious symbol of various cultures all over the world. It also seems to come naturally as a geometric symbol. I used to use engineer pads to write on a lot for my math classes. I'd be doodling, just drawing on the graph-like lines on the paper. Next thing I know I'd be about to make a swastika, so I'd have to continue filling in lines so that it looked like a four-pane window.

I recall several years ago when there was a big deal made about a swastika showing up on a Pokemon card or something. It was reverse from the Nazi one. It wasn't meant to be a symbol of Nazism or hate.

Why can't the point JT made about the Iron Cross someday be made about the swastika? Something that was once infamous and associated with hate that is no longer consequential.

In my senior year of high school, a program was put in place where we were all supposed to have red notebooks (school color). Each week we would have a sheet in there in which we were to list our assignments and teachers were to sign off on them or something. Many students didn't like the idea of the whole concept. A friend of mine put some black tape on his notebook in the form of a swastika as sort of a protest of this "Gestapo" program. I guess my protest was that I had a white notebook since I had already purchased it before learning of the plan.

Deoxyribonucleic
05-02-2008, 08:57 PM
My Mom's great uncle died from a combination of ebola virus and toxic mold, when I saw these on the toy shelves, I got a stomach ache.

bigbarada
05-02-2008, 09:04 PM
What about a kid whose dad was mauled to death by a bear? Should he or she have to be confronted by all of the teddy bears and such in the toy aisle?

The swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) has a long history as a good luck symbol and as a religious symbol of various cultures all over the world. It also seems to come naturally as a geometric symbol. I used to use engineer pads to write on a lot for my math classes. I'd be doodling, just drawing on the graph-like lines on the paper. Next thing I know I'd be about to make a swastika, so I'd have to continue filling in lines so that it looked like a four-pane window.

I recall several years ago when there was a big deal made about a swastika showing up on a Pokemon card or something. It was reverse from the Nazi one. It wasn't meant to be a symbol of Nazism or hate.

Why can't the point JT made about the Iron Cross someday be made about the swastika? Something that was once infamous and associated with hate that is no longer consequential.

In my senior year of high school, a program was put in place where we were all supposed to have red notebooks (school color). Each week we would have a sheet in there in which we were to list our assignments and teachers were to sign off on them or something. Many students didn't like the idea of the whole concept. A friend of mine put some black tape on his notebook in the form of a swastika as sort of a protest of this "Gestapo" program. I guess my protest was that I had a white notebook since I had already purchased it before learning of the plan.

You're teddy bear argument isn't a very logical one, because bears don't actively seek out humans to murder. Plus, kids fear lots of things like dogs, cats and spiders, but there are toys of them everywhere. So this goes way deeper than "primal fear."

About the swastika, if you go to South Korea you will see them everywhere, mainly in store windows since it's a symbol of good fortune. It's how the swastika is oriented that makes the difference. Regardless, it's just a symbol and it only holds whatever meaning we attribute to it. So a swastika is not "evil" any more than a cross is "holy." They're just lines oriented in specific patterns, they don't have any intrinsic meaning.

Kids need to understand that it's not the swastika that makes Nazis evil, it was their actions and philosophies that made them evil. However, that's a lesson that is way beyond the scope of action figures. That's a lesson best reserved for the classroom.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-02-2008, 09:32 PM
Kids need to understand that it's not the swastika that makes Nazis evil, it was their actions and philosophies that made them evil. However, that's a lesson that is way beyond the scope of action figures. That's a lesson best reserved for the classroom.Indeed, it's symbolism vs. substance. Swastika's don't make you evil, awareness ribbons don't cure cancer or AIDS, and lapel pins won't win the war on terror.

Tycho
05-02-2008, 10:16 PM
I kind of disagree with the swastika being relegated to "just a symbol."

We all "know" what it is supposed to stand for, OR if we are or aren't in South Korea.

I still maintain that it's OK for some action figures to bear that mark, or for there to be a Hitler figure, but it is not because the swastika is innoculous.

But for those making the symbolic argument, is the American flag just a symbol? Should their be an Exclusive Cobra Commander figure made with a burning American flag as an accessory? That's what Cobra wants to do: destroy "the real American hero," and the US flag is a symbol for GI Joe as well as other values.

Or how about a statue made to look like the Iwo Jima memorial with Megatron stepping on the soldiers trying to raise the flag?

See: you still have to agree that the flag is just a symbol, but I'm sure many of you would find those toy options - because we're still talking about toy options - distasteful.

But the flag stands for freedom amongst other things, and Cobra Commander and Megatron stand for absolute authoritarian dictatorship - and in Megatron's case, humanity's total genocide if you get right down to it.

Now you come back to "well Hitler and the Nazis were real." True. But the swastika was "just their symbol."

You can't have it both ways.

JimJamBonds
05-03-2008, 04:00 AM
I think there should be Nazi figures. The more common place they are, the less interesting they are. To be restricted, forbidden, it invites more intrigue in the attitude those that want to be deviant show towards them.

And if they aren't restricted maybe some people will think its no big deal since they are 'everywhere.'

plasticfetish
05-03-2008, 06:14 AM
This thread will probably migrate to the Rancor Pit. I can’t see how it wouldn’t, though I’d like to say that even if I don’t agree (exactly) with everything that I’ve read, I’m impressed by the quality of the opinions expressed here.


By all means, let's trivialize the most horrific evil of the last hundred years by turning it into mass-produced children's toys, thereby removing all meaning from the swastika and what it stood for, further whitewashing one of the most despicable acts of human behavior to ever befall mankind.

JT’s post very eloquently sums up my take on this idea of “making Nazi action figures.”

My initial reaction to the subject, was to question Tycho’s reasoning behind wanting Nazi theme toys. To me, toys themselves are tools used for play, with “play” being a way for children to process and learn how to handle all kinds of situations and concepts. Sure, a lot of that learning is silly and maybe only in the most vague way valuable, but at the same time, the tools themselves and what they represent are important.

I saw somewhere in this thread where “cowboys and indians” were mentioned, and think that it’s a perfect example of a situation where you’ve got to ask: Okay, I know the toys are fun, and I know that the characters are historically accurate (even as ambiguous symbols), but is it smart to let a kid loose with a set of toys that will, at best, be used to act out a kind of genocide?

A tough question, and don’t get me wrong, I love old plastic cowboy and indian toys, but I also have no problem admitting that, at best, they encourage some pretty unhealthy role play.

Back to the topic... I’d kind of question the reason behind wanting toys that represent Nazis, and question the way in which that evil might be represented. Even as an artist and a firm believer in the First Amendment, I don’t think that the swastika and everything that it has come to represent should be taken lightly. If it appears somewhere, then it should be there for a serious reason. For kid’s toys, I think German soldiers can be represented adequately without the use of those symbols.

Things made for people of various ages that collect military toys, and who might have a more enhanced appreciation for the historic significance behind what a specific figures represent are one thing. Toy soldiers have been around for ages, and it's not hard to understand the appeal. It’s something else to think that a kid focused line of toys would ever need a Hitler action figure. I can’t imagine any situation where a child might benefit from role-playing with a Hitler toy.

The 'Xir
05-03-2008, 09:53 AM
Havent been onsite in awhile so I dont know whats been said and hasnt but reading the last couple posts, the swastika was an old Native American symbol that meant good prosperity!

Im not going to delve into the discussion I really just wanted to let whoever know that there already is Nazi Action Figures! NOT sure if they still make them(prob not) and they are not part of the GI JOE line but they are like GI Joe's that come in the 12inch sizes, and you can get them in almost any collectible or antique store that sells military related items. There is a shop down near my parents in Easton MD that has some, and they cost anywhere from $90-$500!

JimJamBonds
05-03-2008, 10:46 AM
Havent been onsite in awhile so I dont know whats been said and hasnt but reading the last couple posts, the swastika was an old Native American symbol that meant good prosperity!

The swastika was also a Roman symbol, I don't rembmer what it stood for/was used for but that is where it was taken from by the Nazi's.

Tycho
05-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Well, I knew about the 12" collector-type Nazi action figures and how they were created for completists to have at developing their ranks for WWII dioramas / collections.

I should have been more specific with this thread, as my thoughts about the subject matter were concentrated more towards mass-market toy lines, including but not necessarily limited to, the Indiana Jones toy line.

I should note that I'm not personally collecting it, so I'm not desiring to buy Nazis myself. I've yet to actually see the toys in the store to finalize my decision "not to be tempted by them" though.

But that toy line did get me thinking along the subject line about how we're sanitizing children's toys and draw those distinctions: Hitler and his followers killed 6 million and more real people; Palpatine and his followers enacted mass genocide on the fictional planet of Alderaan; there's no question about it as to whether the majority of us allow our children to have Darth Vader action figures.

There also are no rules to play patterns. You can take your action figures and help Palpatine subjegate and control all the aliens and it IS part of the play pattern to have them kill all the Jedi Knights. They even sell over a dozen Order 66 sets. "Holocaust re-enactment 2-packs" would never fly though. Admittedly, I would regard the latter as a very sick idea. However, there actually are parents who censor everything their child plays with and would NOT let them even have a Darth Vader action figure. I bet nearly 99.99% of the folks on this website would say that banning Vader from the toy chest is taking censorship too far - but I've met parents who don't think it is. Their reasoning is that to promote Vader is to promote worship of evil.


This thread will probably migrate to the Rancor Pit. I can’t see how it wouldn’t, though I’d like to say that even if I don’t agree (exactly) with everything that I’ve read, I’m impressed by the quality of the opinions expressed here.

I agree about the quality of the opinions expressed here. If I really have to admit it... ;) ... our forum members are very intelligent, thoughtful people. They are very capable of actually having a mature, respectful conversation about a controversial topic. And every day that this thread isn't dumped into "The Pit," is a testimony to that.

I think (if it even becomes necessary) this thread can be moderated by having certain posts edited or deleted, versus the whole thing dumped to where some just won't participate in it any longer.


My initial reaction to the subject, was to question Tycho’s reasoning behind wanting Nazi theme toys. To me, toys themselves are tools used for play, with “play” being a way for children to process and learn how to handle all kinds of situations and concepts. Sure, a lot of that learning is silly and maybe only in the most vague way valuable, but at the same time, the tools themselves and what they represent are important.

Very insightful, PF. However, I don't personally want to buy Nazi action figures. I am just questioning how much we need to sterilize what kids will see in a toy line, especially one where Nazis are being marketed as the bad guys.


I saw somewhere in this thread where “cowboys and indians” were mentioned, and think that it’s a perfect example of a situation where you’ve got to ask: Okay, I know the toys are fun, and I know that the characters are historically accurate (even as ambiguous symbols), but is it smart to let a kid loose with a set of toys that will, at best, be used to act out a kind of genocide?

This was REALLY intelligent to add. As children, most of us who are around 30 now, were taught the cowboys brought civilization to the West and fought the Indians as the savage bad guys. Those of us who've now graduated within today's stereotypical framework for a college education - or even a grade school education - have had a revized depiction of the Indians. They are now not even Indians, but Native Americans, and I'm guessing everyone knows why. (Not a sarcastic remark, but a reference to this continent NOT being India as Europeans originally expected.)



For kid’s toys, I think German soldiers can be represented adequately without the use of those symbols.

Indeed, they are represented that way in the Indiana Jones line being sold now, and Nazis were members of the German political party in power. You could be a German soldier, and not be a Nazi (but you probably couldn't expect promotion any time soon). I'd liken involvement with the Nazi party to members of the US armed forces today being allowed to wear Republican or Democratic specific insignia on their uniforms. Our military protocals don't allow it. But in rampant, nationalistic Germany during WWII, that was different. It was encouraged for especially high-ranking military leaders to wear their Nazi Party accoutraments. Today, General Petraeus would not wear "the elephant" or "the donkey" in public, in spite of whether some political leaders would want him to.


It’s something else to think that a kid focused line of toys would ever need a Hitler action figure. I can’t imagine any situation where a child might benefit from role-playing with a Hitler toy.

Even evil movements have leaders. The Hitler figure is akin to having a Vader figure to command your stormtroopers.

But the toy line is not marketed as "Adolf and The Quest for the Master Race," versus the evil Indiana Jones, Sallah, and Marcus Brody who would try to stop him. And at the same time, I don't think most (or any) of you play Star Wars in such a manner so that Palpatine wins. - Many of you may be subconsciously unaware that you don't like the Prequels for that same reason - it's not a victory for "the good guys."

Uh-oh. I'm afraid I'll start another tangent if that takes off too far. So this is NOT another OT vs PT thread!

2-1B
05-03-2008, 03:52 PM
When are we gonna bet a new Jar Jar figure ? I want a resculpt of his AOTC robes because I didn't like the preposed one.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-03-2008, 04:55 PM
I should note that I'm not personally collecting it, so I'm not desiring to buy Nazis myself. I've yet to actually see the toys in the store to finalize my decision "not to be tempted by them" though.I saw them on the pegs today. I was only slightly tempted to get some. If they had a basic Raiders Indy, I might be interested in that. I did see the German soldiers.



I agree about the quality of the opinions expressed here. If I really have to admit it... ;) ... our forum members are very intelligent, thoughtful people. They are very capable of actually having a mature, respectful conversation about a controversial topic. And every day that this thread isn't dumped into "The Pit," is a testimony to that.

I think (if it even becomes necessary) this thread can be moderated by having certain posts edited or deleted, versus the whole thing dumped to where some just won't participate in it any longer.I'd rather it be in the pit than be censored. Not that I want it to be there. I just don't care about the location. The Rancor Pit is easy enough to get to. Threads get moved all the time, whether it be into the Pit or somewhere else.




This was REALLY intelligent to add. As children, most of us who are around 30 now, were taught the cowboys brought civilization to the West and fought the Indians as the savage bad guys. Those of us who've now graduated within today's stereotypical framework for a college education - or even a grade school education - have had a revized depiction of the Indians. They are now not even Indians, but Native Americans, and I'm guessing everyone knows why. (Not a sarcastic remark, but a reference to this continent NOT being India as Europeans originally expected.)Westerns that depicted battles with the Indians were pretty common back then too, but they didn't always make it that simple. Some would show the duplicity of some of the soldiers, and show the nobleness of the Indian chief.

Here is an amusing look at the Indian's perspective as depicted in this George Carlin routine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9wZAtsCdHk).





But the toy line is not marketed as "Adolf and The Quest for the Master Race," versus the evil Indiana Jones, Sallah, and Marcus Brody who would try to stop him. And at the same time, I don't think most (or any) of you play Star Wars in such a manner so that Palpatine wins. - Many of you may be subconsciously unaware that you don't like the Prequels for that same reason - it's not a victory for "the good guys."

Uh-oh. I'm afraid I'll start another tangent if that takes off too far. So this is NOT another OT vs PT thread!Actually, that is kind of what the redhead in the bathtub said in that one video you linked to. She liked the prequels, but felt they didn't resonate as well because we all knew how it was going to end. The bad guys were going to win.

The thing is, some people are attracted to the bad guys. Look at how popular Darth Vader is. So many people were disappointed Darth Maul didn't stick around longer.

JediTricks
05-04-2008, 07:10 PM
Why can't the point JT made about the Iron Cross someday be made about the swastika? Something that was once infamous and associated with hate that is no longer consequential.Because the evil acts done under the banner of the swastika are too heinous to sweep away and forget about. It's the nazi flag, and the neo-nazi movement still enjoys its use today because they still hold to those ideals. The swastika has been perverted into the symbol of hatred and intolerance, not appropriate for children's toys, and not something we should so easily forget.


JT’s post very eloquently sums up my take on this idea of “making Nazi action figures.” Thank you. It came very naturally when I wrote it. I really feel the idea of placing a swastika on a mass-produced children's toy is a trivialization.


My initial reaction to the subject, was to question Tycho’s reasoning behind wanting Nazi theme toys.No doubt, that's all Tycho seems to know how to do lately, stir up the pot without any true motivation or thought behind it. He just wants to throw an argument bomb and watch the carnage without actually believing in what he says on either side of the argument. Very common to the internet these days, I was just having a conversation with my friend Dom about that.


To me, toys themselves are tools used for play, with “play” being a way for children to process and learn how to handle all kinds of situations and concepts. Sure, a lot of that learning is silly and maybe only in the most vague way valuable, but at the same time, the tools themselves and what they represent are important.Good point.


I saw somewhere in this thread where “cowboys and indians” were mentioned, and think that it’s a perfect example of a situation where you’ve got to ask: Okay, I know the toys are fun, and I know that the characters are historically accurate (even as ambiguous symbols), but is it smart to let a kid loose with a set of toys that will, at best, be used to act out a kind of genocide?

A tough question, and don’t get me wrong, I love old plastic cowboy and indian toys, but I also have no problem admitting that, at best, they encourage some pretty unhealthy role play.Education has come a long way since the 1950s when the roles were cowboys wearing white and being pure while injuns were redskin savages, so today with a better view of history and understanding we don't see many remnants of those outdated opinions, especially with children's toys.



But that toy line did get me thinking along the subject line about how we're sanitizing children's toys and draw those distinctions: Hitler and his followers killed 6 million and more real people; Palpatine and his followers enacted mass genocide on the fictional planet of Alderaan; there's no question about it as to whether the majority of us allow our children to have Darth Vader action figures.That right there proves how out of touch you are in this matter. If you can't see the distinction between a fantasy piece of fiction and the very real genocide of nearly an entire people, you are either intentionally blinding yourself to the matter or you are so incredibly thoughtless and without empathy that you cannot tell the difference between fictional mythology and fact. The very notion that you could compare the deaths of millions of living people with hopes and dreams and fears and feelings with faceless scripted words is repugnant.

It's not sanitization, it's putting a level of appropriateness on things, it's not appropriate to throw the idea of the Nazi atrocities at children, their minds aren't well-rounded enough to grasp the concept so making them playthings would lighten the impact of the reality of those deeds. Without properly building a foundation of information and understanding as to who the Nazis were, how they came to power, and what they did, you would only make them whitewashed, generic, tame, and even potentially likable badguys.

bigbarada
05-08-2008, 10:17 PM
That right there proves how out of touch you are in this matter. If you can't see the distinction between a fantasy piece of fiction and the very real genocide of nearly an entire people, you are either intentionally blinding yourself to the matter or you are so incredibly thoughtless and without empathy that you cannot tell the difference between fictional mythology and fact. The very notion that you could compare the deaths of millions of living people with hopes and dreams and fears and feelings with faceless scripted words is repugnant.

It's not sanitization, it's putting a level of appropriateness on things, it's not appropriate to throw the idea of the Nazi atrocities at children, their minds aren't well-rounded enough to grasp the concept so making them playthings would lighten the impact of the reality of those deeds. Without properly building a foundation of information and understanding as to who the Nazis were, how they came to power, and what they did, you would only make them whitewashed, generic, tame, and even potentially likable badguys.

I couldn't agree more, not being able to distinguish the make-believe Grand Moff Tarkin destroying the make-believe planet of Alderaan with a make-believe Death Star from the real, flesh-and-blood Adolf Hitler ordering the deaths of millions of flesh-and-blood Jews (among others) in very real and very deadly gas chambers, shows a loose grip on reality that borders on a mental illness. Sane people can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Someone for who those lines are blurred is losing their sanity and really needs to step back from Star Wars and reevaluate their life.

Plus you make a good point about the danger of making Nazis likable with action figures. Look at all the kids wanting to be Sith Lords or Stormtroopers. Fortunately there are no such organizations in the real world (no, the 501st doesn't count as a military organization). HOWEVER, kids who become enamored with Nazis have plenty of neo-Nazi and white-supremacist groups that they can join. Groups that are very real and very dangerous. Not saying that Nazi toys will turn kids into Nazis, but there is a danger of making the modern incarnations of the movement seem harmless.

Lacan Draven
05-13-2008, 03:35 PM
I have tried typing several replies for this thread. This discussion was one of the reasons I came to this forum. I guess in the end I couldn't really think of anything to say that wouldn't get anyone upset. Sorry. Good Discussion though!

CaptainSolo1138
05-13-2008, 03:40 PM
I have tried typing several replies for this thread. This discussion was one of the reasons I came to this forum. I guess in the end I couldn't really think of anything to say that wouldn't get anyone upset. Sorry. Good Discussion though!
You Googled "George Carlin Arby's Nazi", didn't you? I did the same thing.;)

Fire away. People in these parts are easily offended but quick to forget.

Lacan Draven
05-13-2008, 03:47 PM
You Googled "George Carlin Arby's Nazi", didn't you? I did the same thing.;)

Fire away. People in these parts are easily offended but quick to forget.

How did you know I was searching for that? Isn't it amazing what google comes up with?

Well I guess if I had to put my 3 cents in, I would have to say that when you set the DVDs of Star Wars: A New Hope and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade down in front of a 7 year old, and ask him to describe Tarkin and Hilter, I can guarantee that he isn't going to say anything bad about Hitler as opposed to tarkin being a "very mean man." So what are you going to do, fast foward through that scene, so your kid doesn't get a glimse of the Nazis?

To me, if a figure of Hitler was "bad taste", then having Hitler in the movies should be considered bad taste as well. Really should they just make a special edition of The Last Crusade and replace the Nazi's with Stormtroopers who are weilding walky-talkies?

bigbarada
05-13-2008, 04:53 PM
So what are you going to do, fast foward through that scene, so your kid doesn't get a glimse of the Nazis?

No, you are going to teach your kid who Hitler and the Nazis really were. How they were responsible for the deaths of millions of men, women and children back in the 30s and 40s. Then you tell them that Grand Moff Tarkin is just make believe, he's not real.

Simple enough, right? Besides that was a throwaway scene in Last Crusade, I highly doubt any kid would watch the film and instantly start begging their parents for an Adolf Hitler action figure.

Lacan Draven
05-13-2008, 05:12 PM
No, you are going to teach your kid who Hitler and the Nazis really were. How they were responsible for the deaths of millions of men, women and children back in the 30s and 40s. Then you tell them that Grand Moff Tarkin is just make believe, he's not real.

Simple enough, right? Besides that was a throwaway scene in Last Crusade, I highly doubt any kid would watch the film and instantly start begging their parents for an Adolf Hitler action figure.


Yeah you are right, thats the kicker though isn't it? Most people don't seem to understand that even though you are their parent, you still have to teach them a few things. Still teaching a child that something is make believe is harder than it sounds. It does take some effort, something most people don't have a shred of.

stillakid
05-13-2008, 07:50 PM
Because the evil acts done under the banner of the swastika are too heinous to sweep away and forget about. It's the nazi flag, and the neo-nazi movement still enjoys its use today because they still hold to those ideals. The swastika has been perverted into the symbol of hatred and intolerance, not appropriate for children's toys, and not something we should so easily forget.


Education has come a long way since the 1950s when the roles were cowboys wearing white and being pure while injuns were redskin savages, so today with a better view of history and understanding we don't see many remnants of those outdated opinions, especially with children's toys.


It's not sanitization, it's putting a level of appropriateness on things, it's not appropriate to throw the idea of the Nazi atrocities at children, their minds aren't well-rounded enough to grasp the concept so making them playthings would lighten the impact of the reality of those deeds. Without properly building a foundation of information and understanding as to who the Nazis were, how they came to power, and what they did, you would only make them whitewashed, generic, tame, and even potentially likable badguys.

This all seems very political to me. Why isn't this thread in the Rancor Pit?

bigbarada
05-13-2008, 10:13 PM
Yeah you are right, thats the kicker though isn't it? Most people don't seem to understand that even though you are their parent, you still have to teach them a few things. Still teaching a child that something is make believe is harder than it sounds. It does take some effort, something most people don't have a shred of.

Then I would say that it's again up to the parent to determine if their kid is old enough to distinguish a fantasy character from a historical one. Which is why all of these movies are rated PG for "Parental Guidance Suggested."

mabudonicus
05-13-2008, 10:34 PM
This all seems very political to me. Why isn't this thread in the Rancor Pit?

Ahhh if only the first two pages of folks askin for such didn't get "balanced"

you knew it would "go here" natch

at least it'll die once in the 'Pit
:beard: Iso&Baws
And Cheers to PF for having faith :D

Tycho
05-13-2008, 10:45 PM
at least it'll die once in the 'Pit


Why should it die?

Why is participation in the Pit rated as declining so much?

And at the same time, off-site forums like Vynsane is nearly the same thing - but so important to certain folks?

It seems hypocritical doesn't?

And isn't this all a stand for censorship that's inconsistent with other positions some people around here have taken previously?

Mad Slanted Powers
05-13-2008, 10:58 PM
Death is a natural part of life. As is good and evil. The question is who is the villain in this story?

plasticfetish
05-13-2008, 11:09 PM
This all seems very political to me. Why isn't this thread in the Rancor Pit?You have a point. I mean... if you're offended that Nazis are being called "evil," then I suppose we can move this thread. ;)

...or maybe just keep with a topic that has less to do with politics, and more to do with what's "appropriate" and what's not, as far as toys go.

Anyway...


To me, if a figure of Hitler was "bad taste", then having Hitler in the movies should be considered bad taste as well.I understand your point, but the issue is less about who we're talking about, and more about how he's being depicted... or for what purpose.

The films have fixed parameters, and a specific historic context. Hitler, or Nazis in general, aren't being glorified, and though the films aren't exactly "historic" accounts of anything real, the idea of Hitler being interested in the occult has a basis in reality.

So we have these sinister characters, based on real people, that reflect the same kind of sinister villains seen in many films. Indiana Jones movies are an homage to the old pulp action hero stories from the past. They’re full of stereotypes, and huge liberties are taken with reality vs. fantasy, but what they’re all about is calling a "bad guy" a bad guy, and showing how the good guys can win in the end.

The comparison of Nazis vs. Imperials, or Tarkin in particular, is a good one. Obviously Tarkin was modeled after what's become a kind of archetype for sinister villains, and obviously Stormtroopers are modeled after German soldiers from WW2. With these characters being presented in the way they are, and being battled, we get the same kind of lessons about good battling evil.

As far as the toys go... again, it's all a matter of purpose and context. My son is ten, and for a long time now he has understood what those Star Wars characters represent. He knows enough about history to understand how one villain is meant to at least vaguely reference another. The toys can suggest a play pattern that points to a similar kind of lesson about good defeating evil, and it’s all done--as it should be--without abusing specific imagery, that should never be taken lightly.

To tell you the truth, I always try to make sure that my son understands that there’s a fine line between bad guys and good guys in some cases. Sure, it’s one thing to have these stereotypical German soldiers, but it’s another to understand how in many cases these guys were real people, who lived and died in miserable circumstances that they didn’t want to be in. So again, it’s not about the specific characters, or the specific symbols in question--it’s not about Nazis, Hitler, or swastikas. It’s about what they represent, and about whether those specific things need to be depicted in toy form, and whether it serves any kind of constructive purpose at all.

(Welcome to the forums BTW Lacan Draven!)

stillakid
05-13-2008, 11:34 PM
You have a point. I mean... if you're offended that Nazis are being called "evil," then I suppose we can move this thread. ;)

...or maybe just keep with a topic that has less to do with politics, and more to do with what's "appropriate" and what's not, as far as toys go.



I see, then you're suggesting that context has a role in determining what is appropriate?

plasticfetish
05-14-2008, 12:27 AM
I see, then you're suggesting that context has a role in determining what is appropriate?Well, I don't know about context, but in a thread titled, "I think there should be Nazi action figures," the subject is "action figures." If the thread was titled, "I think there should be Nazis," then that would be something different. The subject would be "Nazis," and yeah, probably we'd move it to the Pit.

Not so much context as actual subject... but you knew that.

Sinscia Fat'o
05-14-2008, 04:14 PM
As a family member of people who did make it out of Germany in WW2, and hearing stories of how hostile and horriable the nazi's were in those parts of history i still don't think having a Hitler figure in the IJ line is a bad thing. Do i think this figure should be in Wal-Mart...of course not. Should this figure (If made) be offered elsewere were collectors could get it if they wanted, why not?

What's the difference in Nazi figures and figures based off the Vietnamn war? Which by the way i seen at Toys R Us? Commi's are getting made so why not Nazi's.

But I don't think Swastikas or any other Nazi symbol should be on these figures, and i didn't think they should be when the idea came up in the Ask Hasbro thread, I think JT added that one to punch me in the lower mid section of my body (Verbally) of course for asking the question in the first place.

stillakid
05-14-2008, 06:09 PM
Not so much context as actual subject... but you knew that.

Yeah, I did, but there's no consistency on SSG with context and actual subject matter. My problem is that I assume everyone is at least as smart as I am to comprehend context and subject matter, and I don't consider myself that brilliant.

Slicker
05-14-2008, 11:34 PM
And here I thought that the swastika was just a symbol in the Japanese language for a temple! Silly me!

How would everyone feel about getting figures of Stalin or General Mao? Why is that these guys aren't generally considered "evil" by people yet Hitler is? Those two men are responsible for far more deaths and atrocities than Hitler was yet, since they were on the "winning" side of the war, we seem to have glossed over that fact in our history teachings.

stillakid
05-15-2008, 12:12 AM
And here I thought that the swastika was just a symbol in the Japanese language for a temple! Silly me!

How would everyone feel about getting figures of Stalin or General Mao? Why is that these guys aren't generally considered "evil" by people yet Hitler is? Those two men are responsible for far more deaths and atrocities than Hitler was yet, since they were on the "winning" side of the war, we seem to have glossed over that fact in our history teachings.

"History is written by the victors." - Winston Churchill

I knew a girl once who was working on a Serial Killers board game. Not sure if it ever got anywhere. A bit creepy, but I can see there being a niche market for it. :ermm:

plasticfetish
05-15-2008, 03:33 AM
Yeah, I did, but there's no consistency on SSG with context and actual subject matter. My problem is that I assume everyone is at least as smart as I am to comprehend context and subject matter, and I don't consider myself that brilliant.Consistency? I think maybe we'll just try for a little common sense instead, and if on an instance by instance basis that tends to deviate from what you want, then I suppose the best we can do is apologize, and maybe donate our paychecks (for being mods) to charity.


And here I thought that the swastika was just a symbol in the Japanese language for a temple! Silly me!

How would everyone feel about getting figures of Stalin or General Mao? Why is that these guys aren't generally considered "evil" by people yet Hitler is? Those two men are responsible for far more deaths and atrocities than Hitler was yet, since they were on the "winning" side of the war, we seem to have glossed over that fact in our history teachings.The swastika is a motif that's been around for thousands of years. Again, and this isn't really the point of this thread, but what's important here, isn't what it represented before the Third Reich took it as their own, but rather what it has come to stand for, and the significant power that it has to offend and frighten a great many people today.

But sure, it's all about "context" isn't it? Not all swastikas are the same, and we're not talking about all swastikas here. We're not even really talking about whether or not figures of Nazi soldiers should be made at all. What we're talking about in this thread, is whether or not it's appropriate to make a kids toy--with the Indiana Jones toy line being our specific example--where Nazis are depicted.

As far as Joseph Stalin or Mao Zedong toys are concerned, maybe if and when Spielberg wants to put them in a film, we'll cross that bridge.

Lacan Draven
05-15-2008, 07:24 AM
Hey why not make one a Comic Con exclusive? That way they can be bought up by collectors and resellers. Kids wouldn't even have a chance to buy them, (And yes I am excluding the kids that have free access to their mom and dad's credit card on ebay. There is no hope for those kids anyway). That way everyone who wants one can pay $100 for it online!

Anyways there will always be something about this subject that puts me off. Strange how Hitler can appear in a "fun" like The Last Crusade. Or how about Video Games from the 80's? I remember seeing Bionic Commando for the NES. SPOILERS, YOU ARE WARNED:


It had Hitler as a Final Boss. Bionic Commando Rearmed will have a recreation of the final scene. Of course this means that it gets an "M" rating. If you don't what scene I am talking about, then young one you will. (hey this gives me a idea, the comic con exclusive Hitler could have a Head Explosion Action, just like he did in BC!)

Anyways I will always be against some part of this discussion, because there is never a line drawn in the sand. Stalin shows up in Age of Empires. Genghis Khan is in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure. Charles Manson is on Celebrity Death Match. John Wayne Gacy gets a Living Dead Doll and the Al Pacino gets to make Neo do stuff with his sister.

Sigh...If only Hitler would have had Age of Empires. Then he wouldn't have went to war and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

El Chuxter
05-15-2008, 08:45 AM
Only in Bionic Commando, he was called "Evil Dictator" or something else. (Of course, it was obvious who he was, even musclebound.)

I still remember getting to the end of that game and having Hitler call me a "damn fool." He dropped the D-bomb! Omigod!! That was hardcore as hell back in the days before Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto.

Blue2th
05-15-2008, 09:24 AM
And here I thought that the swastika was just a symbol in the Japanese language for a temple! Silly me!

How would everyone feel about getting figures of Stalin or General Mao? Why is that these guys aren't generally considered "evil" by people yet Hitler is? Those two men are responsible for far more deaths and atrocities than Hitler was yet, since they were on the "winning" side of the war, we seem to have glossed over that fact in our history teachings.

It's true, I saw a History Channel program, where alot of the Nazi philosophy and symbols were taken from Japanese mysticism.

Stalin and Mao were as ruthless or worse than Hitler, but think about it, their uniforms are boring.

Captain Kirk, Spock and McCoy looked pretty sharp in those SS uniforms.
I'll say one thing, the Germans sure had excellent uniform designers. I think that's part of the allure. Too bad some of the people who wore them were monsters.

JediTricks
05-15-2008, 09:10 PM
As a family member of people who did make it out of Germany in WW2, and hearing stories of how hostile and horriable the nazi's were in those parts of history i still don't think having a Hitler figure in the IJ line is a bad thing. Do i think this figure should be in Wal-Mart...of course not. Should this figure (If made) be offered elsewere were collectors could get it if they wanted, why not?

But I don't think Swastikas or any other Nazi symbol should be on these figures, and i didn't think they should be when the idea came up in the Ask Hasbro thread, I think JT added that one to punch me in the lower mid section of my body (Verbally) of course for asking the question in the first place.As someone else who has family members that made it out of Germany in that period, as well as some who didn't, I would find the idea of a mainstream national kids toy line having a Hitler figure to be in extremely bad taste. That however had nothing to do with punching you in the lower midsection, and in fact I knew it could come up before you asked it, this thread is what got the swastika aspect added to the mix when I edited the question - it had nothing to do with you, egotistical! :p



How would everyone feel about getting figures of Stalin or General Mao? Why is that these guys aren't generally considered "evil" by people yet Hitler is? Those two men are responsible for far more deaths and atrocities than Hitler was yet, since they were on the "winning" side of the war, we seem to have glossed over that fact in our history teachings.And here I'd just find Stalin and Mao boring figures. We don't think of them at all generally, but they didn't heighten racism to the point of genocide of millions through the active support of their people.



It's true, I saw a History Channel program, where alot of the Nazi philosophy and symbols were taken from Japanese mysticism.As I understand it, this wasn't one of them. The swastika was taken from the ancient Aryan race which the Germans of that time identified themselves with.

Blue2th
05-16-2008, 01:22 PM
As I understand it, this wasn't one of them. The swastika was taken from the ancient Aryan race which the Germans of that time identified themselves with.
I stand corrected, my confusion I guess was when I saw the program on "The Nazis and Occultism"
The more I read about this, the more I see these guys are pretty whacked out.
Also that the Indiana Jones movies were sort of based on fact. With the Nazis obsessed with Mystical artifacts and relics.
Other than Japan being an ally to Germany there is a "mystical" connection with one of Hitler's mentors:

The Haushofer Connection

Notwithstanding Adolf Hitler's claims on the contrary, some authors believe that it was Karl Haushofer, whom they see as Hitler's guiding brain, the one who suggested the Führer the adoption of the swastika as the Nazi symbol. This is, i. e., the opinion of Pauwels and Bergier. [1]

Karl Haushofer was born in Bavaria in 1869. He chose a career as a professional soldier, and his intellectual gifts and meticulous attention to detail quickly allowed him to get an appointment to the Staff Corps.

Haushofer is known to have had a reputation for precognition, manifested when he was a young field artillery officer in the Bavarian army. In 1908 the army sent him to Tokyo to study the Japanese army and to advise it as an artillery instructor. The assignment changed the course of his life and marked the beginning of his love affair with the Orient. During the next four years he traveled extensively in the Far East, adding Korean, Japanese, and Chinese to his repertoire of Russian, French, and English languages.

During his multiple visits to Japan, Haushofer made the acquaintance of many influential Japanese politicians and developed a strong rapport for the Japanese culture which helped in some way to create the German-Japanese alliance during the war.

Karl Haushofer had been a devout student of Schopenhauer, and during his stay in the Far East he was introduced to Oriental esoteric teachings. He became proficient enough to translate several Hindu and Buddhist texts, and became an authority in Oriental mysticism. Some authors even believe that he was the leader of a secret community of Initiates in a current of satanism through which he sought to raise Germany to world power, though these occult connections have been denied.

It is also believed that he belonged to the esoteric circle of George Gurdjieff. [2] Others claim that he was a secret member of the Thule Society. Some authors have linked Haushofer's name with another esoteric group, the Vril Society, [3] or Luminous Lodge, a secret society of occultists in pre-Nazi Berlin.

It was not until the age of forty-five that he obtained his doctorate with a brilliant thesis on Political Geography. He continued developing the ideas expressed on his dissertation, until developing a whole new doctrine he called geopolitics. [4]

Among Haushofer's students at Munich university was a young, bright army officer: Rudolf Hess. Soon Hess became Haushofer's favorite student. Later Hess also became one of the closest associates of Hitler. He was serving time with Hitler at Lansdberg. It is a well known fact that it was Rudolf Hess who introduced Haushofer to Adolf Hitler, and also that the professor frequently visited the Führer while he was writing Mein Kampf in Landsberg Fortress prison after his failed Munich putsch in 1923.

After Hitler came to power in 1933, Professor Haushofer was instrumental in developing Germany's alliance with Japan. Most of the meetings between high rank Japanese officials and Nazi leaders took place at his home near Munich. He saw Japan as the brother nation to Germany, the Herrenwolk of the Orient.

Before the war Professor Haushofer and his son Albrecht maintained close contacts with British members of the Golden Dawn. [5] When war between Germany and England broke out Haushofer tried to use his influence with Hess in trying to convince Hitler to make peace with the British.

In the Spring of 1941, after having failed to convince Hitler, Haushofer urged Hess to make a direct contact with the Duke of Hamilton, a Scottish member of the Golden Dawn. On may 10, 1941, Hess took off for Scot-land. Whether Hitler knew his plans or not is still subject of debate among historians.

The British government, however, didn' t even want to hear Hess' peace propositions and put him in jail incommunicado. After Hess' failure the Nazis denounced him as mentally disturbed.

Karl and Albrecht Haushofer fell from grace. Albrecht became involved in a failed coup d'etat against Hitler on July 20, 1941. Karl Haushofer was sent to the infamous Dachau concentration camp, and Albrecht to the Moabite prison in Berlin, where was later executed.

Some authors claim that, while in Japan, Haushofer was active in the ultra-secret Green Dragon Society, whose members were under oath to commit ritual suicide if faced with dishonor. After the war Haushofer was among the Nazi members to be put to trial before the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. But Professor Haushofer never went to trial. After killing his wife, Karl Haushofer committed suicide in the traditional Japanese way, cutting his intestines with a sharp samurai short sword, in a personal, formal ceremony called seppuku (commonly known as hara-kiri).

CaptainSolo1138
05-16-2008, 01:39 PM
I say make Nazi figures, just make sure they include voice chips. (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1816097)

El Chuxter
05-16-2008, 01:49 PM
That is the most wrong thing I have ever seen. It's like Springtime for Hitler, only not used as subtle satire.

You, sir, are an arse. Why don't you go and play with that stupid Vader figure now? :mad:

CaptainSolo1138
05-16-2008, 02:10 PM
You, sir, are an arse. Why don't you go and play with that stupid Vader figure now? :mad:Shut up. I didn't waste my money on that figure like you did just to be surprised to find out that its really Mr. Heavyfoot. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9d2Y1We-d0)

HA! Now who's an arse?

Tycho
05-16-2008, 03:31 PM
Those were funny videos CaptainSolo. I laughed. Thanks for sharing.

JediTricks
05-16-2008, 06:41 PM
The topic is still legitimate - action figures - so the offending post (above) could be moved, deleted, or edited. It's both political and contains a personal attack.

Note a post could contain a personal attack even if it is NOT political, as many OT vs. PT debates and BMF debates have gotten out of hand.

There are several calls for a moderator to make:

1) are they lazy and is it just too easy for them to move the thread to where it is hidden and might die due to lack of lazy board members who won't type "r-a-n-c-o-r" in a dialog box so they can continue to discuss this?

2) Is it time to let the topic die anyway? Probably. I started it and I think all sides of the question have been explored and we've stated our answers. With regards to Indy Jones figures, it's up to Hasbro to set the policy, but we've learned interesting things about swastikas etc. along the way (and expressed opinions on Adolf, Mao, Stalin, Bin Laden, etc. for action figures, too). But I think further discussion may be happening only to encite flaming. A controversial topic need not only die because it incites flaming. It can just die because it's all been discussed. Before this post, I didn't really have anything more to add to this. I was just reading responses, to see if anything more that was interesting might be posted. (I was aware of Hitler's WWI service and Bush's draft dodging, btw.)

3) The topic was about Action Figures though (with swastikas on them, or likenesses of Hitler, Rommel, etc.) and while the offending poster claimed that BigBarada shouldn't talk about politics and stick to action figures, the offending poster didn't realize himself that THIS was an action figure topic - it says so in the thread title and original post!

The Rancor Pit is an appropriate place to begin a comparison thread between current political leaders and Nazis if that discussion's desired.

Anyway, THIS current post of mine may be deleted as well, when it is no longer relevant (read: when it is seen by the appropriate board moderator). I usually don't agree with BigBarada on political issues, but I don't want to see him personally attacked. He's a good guy and long time board member who's participated here in better form than I have. So it's not fair to treat him poorly.
Way to go, threadkiller.

plasticfetish
05-16-2008, 06:46 PM
Way to go, threadkiller.Seriously.

Sounds like someone's got a new nickname. Maybe... Luke Threadkiller?

stillakid
05-16-2008, 06:47 PM
An almost certain way to get an Oscar is to make a movie that deals with the suffering of the Jewish people. It's also the ticket that allows otherwise political threads to flourish under "general" circumstances.

Well, that and anything that involves losing a limb and rising above the obstacles. :rolleyes:

JediTricks
05-16-2008, 08:53 PM
Seriously.

Sounds like someone's got a new nickname. Maybe... Luke Threadkiller?Close, "Lunk Threadkiller" sounds good to me, though it seems like we have 2 of 'em in here...


An almost certain way to get an Oscar is to make a movie that deals with the suffering of the Jewish people. It's also the ticket that allows otherwise political threads to flourish under "general" circumstances.

Well, that and anything that involves losing a limb and rising above the obstacles. :rolleyes:Wow, how observant and current a post, and not at all grasping at straws because of bitterness over something unrelated. It's a good thing the holocaust is still a modern political topic of discussion rather than a matter of history, or your post there would look unbelievably petty.

Lord Malakite
05-18-2008, 03:00 AM
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here since there is some genuine and rather interesting discussion going on, but things have gotten off the initial topic of what this thread was originally created for (or what is considered allowed/appropriate under the "General Discussion" forum). If things don't get back on topic I (or one of the other mods) will unfortunately have no choice but to either rename/move this thread to Rancor (where this type of discussion is more appropriate) or to close the thread entirely. If you wish to continue your current discussion you can always start a new topic in Rancor.

plasticfetish
05-18-2008, 03:09 AM
(Thanks LM.)

So anyway, everything said and done, I think that Hasbro has done a decent job of handling the whole issue... you know, the one that this thread is about.

As well, I think that they shouldn't have much trouble doing figures of characters like Major Toht or Colonel Dietrich. Insignias and symbols can be left off the uniforms, and they'll still be the same characters.\

edit: And it's just occured to me, that even if Hasbro wanted to put swastikas on the Nazi figures, the way their paint quality has been, I'd doubt it would end up looking like anything. ;)

Tycho
05-18-2008, 10:36 AM
So what action figures from mainstream lines ARE actually Nazis who would have swastikas on them to be authentic?

Raiders of the Lost Ark:

Maybe Colonel Dietrich. The German Soldiers did not have them.
Toht wore a Nazi pin, but that'd be too small to be visible on a 3 3/4" figure.

On 12" figures this would be a larger issue. Pun intended.


Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade:

Colonel that was working with Donovan.
Dr. Elsa Schneider in Germany
Indiana Jones in German disguise (probably the most controversial, as he's the hero character)

Again, the 12" figures might face more scrutiny.

An actual figure of Adolf Hitler for the "Jones line" isn't really necessary. For WWII collector series like Ultimate Soldier or some other adult collectors' line, I don't think it's an issue. They should make the character for those interested in having the leaders like Rooseveldt, Churchill, Stalin, Mousillini and for the other wars, I think any currently DEAD leaders, from at least 40 years back or so, like Ho Chi Mihn, might be alright. But there are veterans that are still alive who fought the leader of North Vietnam, so I don't know. I think Saddam Hussein and especially Osama Bin Laden would be in bad taste right now - especially with the last person still being alive. But the topic's really about Nazi figures.

Also of importance are figures from Star Trek: Patterns of Force (a TOS episode). I doubt the bad guys from one episode would be made, but Kirk and McCoy definitely had swastikas. I don't think Spock did, though he wore the badge of the SS. Again it's relevant, because they are main hero characters. I don't know if any retro Star Trek lines ever made these incarnations of Kirk and Bones though.

CaptainSolo1138
05-18-2008, 11:54 AM
edit: And it's just occured to me, that even if Hasbro wanted to put swastikas on the Nazi figures, the way their paint quality has been, I'd doubt it would end up looking like anything. ;)That's awesome. Well played, sir.

2-1B
05-18-2008, 05:30 PM
When they do a Charles Manson figure, will it have his forehead tattoo or will that be in bad taste?

I think it would be in bad taste.

Tycho
05-18-2008, 07:19 PM
I believe there is a Charles Manson figure, as part of a serial killers collection from some company or another. I think they make Jeffrey Dahmer and some others. I'm not certain of this though.

That is in bad taste. It glorifies people who caused the friends and families of their victims a lot of pain.

I'm not saying that Hitler didn't do this - he did. But he also serves as the political leader of an ememy army for the purposes of recreating a war collection, in a similar way to the manner in which the fictional Darth Vader or Cobra Commander serve their armies.

I still say that a living despot who's influence is still strong, like Osama Bin Laden, is the most inappropriate for an action figure, as it glorifies a cause that's still got momentum.

Slicker
05-19-2008, 05:42 AM
Just for the record there actually was an Adolf Hitler figure made in a line much like you described, Tycho. It had various historical world leaders and he was included in it.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-19-2008, 06:35 PM
If you really want a Hitler figure for your IJ scenes, just use an Admiral Ozzel. :D

While we're on the subject of modern-day evil, though . . . when, say, parodying bin Laden, how far is too far? I remember shortly after 9-11, I would watch joke videos about him and would make/think about making similar projects (similar to the videos, not to the attacks). Or is that different since a lot of those kinds of websites aren't geared towards kids like action figures might be?

Tycho
05-24-2008, 04:57 AM
Hasbro has pictures up that include Colonel Vogel from Last Crusade.

He is wearing the red armband but there does not appear to be any swastika painted on it.

I think this is the best representation of their answer to our question about Nazi action figures and how authentic they will make them.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-26-2008, 12:08 PM
The definitive answer, from Hasbro Q&A at Toy News International (http://toynewsi.com/news.php?catid=262&itemid=13001):


TNI: Indiana Jones tends to have a lot of religious and political references (i.e., a lot of characters based on members from the Nazi party). For a toy line geared to kids and collectors alike, how difficult has it been to deal with these issues and yet stay true to what these movies are about. I believe it's been said there is not much chance of seeing a Hitler figure in this line yet we have Nazi soldiers. Where do you draw the line, and how do you draw the line for what's appropriate and what's not for a toy line like this?

Hasbro: The figures we have produced are German army figures, which do not necessarily mean that they are Nazis. We will not produce Nazi figures and have removed all political party affiliations and insignia from the uniforms. We can also confirm that there is zero chance of there ever being a Hitler figure in the line - we just would not go there.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-26-2008, 12:15 PM
Get them to make figures of the Three Stooges. Then you could take Moe's head and put it on a German soldier figure and paint a mustache and a swastika on him.

Blue2th
05-26-2008, 04:37 PM
Hasbro recognizes the difference between a German soldier and a Nazi.

It's a fine line, but there is a difference. Every soldier had the swastika in some form or another on his uniform whether it be small insignias on his lapel or hat or helmet. It didn't mean they were Nazis.

chrisc
06-05-2008, 12:10 AM
Rancor Pit in 5, 4, 3...

Don't they already make Nazi action figures? I can;t think of what they're called, but they're always sold 5 or 6 to a pack and include a little scene. Like they'll sell the German 502nd with a Norman bunker or something. They're pretty awesome, but a touch on the high end of "price relative to value".

OK OK OK............. You just hit my weak point. I really hate it when every one classifies all German soldiers in that time era as Nazi's. Maybe someone has already hit on this, but I don't have the patience/attention span to read all 5 pages of post.

All German soldiers were not Nazi's. They were just ordinary men doing what they were told to do in a situation where that didn't have much of a choice. They were soldiers very much like the ones ( yes there are Germans there) over in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, except they had a much shorter life expactancy. Please before you go and classify people, read up on the Nazi party. You will learn some really interesting facts.

plasticfetish
06-05-2008, 12:54 AM
but I don't have the patience/attention span to read all 5 pages of post.You probably missed where we deleted about a thousand posts in this thread because they were off-topic.

The topic is toys BTW. ;)