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Pendo
02-18-2002, 07:20 AM
Not everyone disliked TPM, but those who did all have their own reasons for why they think it was poorly made.

For me I think GWL has introduced too many new characters, and I think he has gone overboard with special effects. It is also missing some classic Star Wars elements such as the lightspeed effect from inside the cockpit and C-3PO's golden coverings. Just little things like that would tie it in with the clasic trilogy and please many Star Wars fans.

What are your reasons for disliking Episode I?

PENDO!

JediTricks
02-18-2002, 08:55 AM
- Anakin should have been an early teenager, not a 9 year old. This is even worse when you notice that 9 year old Anakin is being played by a 7 year old Jake Lloyd (except in the pickup shots). Reading the illustrated screenplay gives the impression that being around 12 years old is what Lucas originally had in mind, then made the kid younger near the last minute.

- Corny little "up to the minute" pop-culture lines like "Are you brain dead" and "exsqueeze me!" should never have been.

- Anakin's repeated use of "Oops" and "Yippie" is simply awful. No kids talk like that, especially not serious-faced slaves.

- Speaking of which, none of these slaves are shown being unhappy slaves. If human slaves are well-treated on Tatooine for being prized possessions rather than workforce, then this should have been explained in Shmi's hovel.

- Too much forced comedy like the battle droids' fear of facing the 2 Jedi.

- Another, very specific instance is where the movie works extremely hard to take dignity away from Jar Jar under the guise of comedy. However, comedy that is this forced rarely seems funny to anybody but the lowest common denominator.

- Jar Jar doesn't get to show depth except in one brief (and chopped up) scene with the queen. Thus, Jar Jar never really does anything to redeem his bumbling, even showing extreme cowardace in the end battle.

- A lack of realistic "galactic history" in too many places, except for;

- The reuse of Tatooine felt very wasteful, especially to;

- The way Anakin grows up on Tatooine, and;

- Having Anakin build C-3PO.

- Obi-Wan doesn't get enough to do while Qui-Gon feels almost completely like someone who wouldn't be part of the Jedi order.

- Darth Maul is supposed to be a bad guy but comes off more as a pit bull. If this guy is a sith, he should have been shown with some good lines, some individuality away from his master, and some smarts - not just a flashy lightsaber battle.

- The great race feels like a totally pointless diversion after a LONG BORING stay on Tatooine.

- The film is showing almost entirely one path rather than showing two paths of some of the main characters before the join-up near the end. This is especially painful in Tatooine because there's nothing to distract us from the nothingness of Qui-Gon's visit.

- The total dependancy on CGI and a director who doesn't like to give actors, including child actors who have no life experience to draw their own emotional acting base from, gives the film a phoney feeling.

- Too many major coincidences, like the editing of the final battle that makes every single thing that happens to Anakin a coincidence rather than a combination of his skills mixed with the Force. The will of the Force is not enough alone to drive the universe, if Luke didn't have the skill to pilot an X-wing, he never would have had the opportunity to trust his feelings about making the kill-shot. Anakin is simply dragged around parts of the battle.

- The desire to explain the science of the Force with "midichlorians" is unacceptable to me. Not only does it hurt the saga, but it trivializes that magic/myth saga feeling of the classic trilogy.

- Finally, the whole virgin birth issue is really too much. Even in the screenplay, Lucas has Shmi finish her sentence with "There was no father... that I know of," insinuating that Shmi's life as a slave hasn't been too pleasant at times. However, this is edited out of the film to give no question to the parentage of Anakin - a sour note which rings false compared to its real-world counterpart.

Rollo Tomassi
02-18-2002, 09:24 AM
For me, the first episode lacked the underdog feel of the original trilogy. Instead of the rebellious trio of spunky young freedom fighter, naive young farmboy, and cocky space pirate, which gives the middle finger to authority (and are heroes we can all identify with), we get the LEADER of a PLANET and basically what amounts to two members of an order that is equal parts Religion and Law Enforcement. The complete antithesis of the rebels in the OT. It's hard to root for stodgy, reserved, boring people like that. And if you got no emotional connection to the protagonists, you got no movie.

That and the fruit stand lady. "Storm's coming Ani! better get home quick!" Aiieeee! Scratch my eyes out, she was annoying!

evenflow
02-18-2002, 01:38 PM
midichlorians, that was my problem with it.

SithDroid
02-18-2002, 03:06 PM
I agree almost 1000% with you JediTricks. If I may elaborate.

The forced cmedy of the Battle Droids. Is it just me or do they seem like a bad beat cop. Like when Qui-Gon is talking to one of them and he asks where they are going and the droid has to ask twice. Hello, your a droid it's not like you're human and can FORGET or not HEAR what the person just said. Also the droid pauses by saying "Uh..." A Droid would not say that. Especially a mass produced Battle Droid. Now Protocol Droids I could understand.

Jar-Jar, Jar-Jar, Jar-Jar, Jar-Jar, Jar-Jar. By far the WORST character ever created. Totally out of place. The use of his primitive speaking, annoying voice, and stupid scenes such as stepping in poop, getting f*rted on by the Eopie, getting his lips caught in the energy beams, the entire sequence of him being a bumbling fool during the gungan battle, etc... I could go on and on about how ridiculous this character is. Also how he is treated as a great hero when in reality he is a coward. Stupid if you ask me. I hope that he has only about 5 minutes of screen time in AOTC and that he gets killed early on.

The use of Tatooine seemed out of place. It was like GL just said "Hey where should I set this, some place new, nah I know I'll use Tatooine the fans will love it." Whatever, using Tatooine as Anakins home only creates problems with the OT which I have gone into length in another thread and don't feel like restating.

Anakin building C-3P0. Why? Who cares? That only adds to the confusion of why C-3P0 doesn't tell Luke about his father in the OT. I'm tired of people saying he had a memory wipe and such just to come up with excuses for GL's poor writing.

Midichlorians. I agree with JT here when I say that it destroys the whole magic/myth of the OT by trying to explain it. No one ever cared. GL is the only one who wanted to explain it more. I for one am happy not knowing about the midichlorians and have figured a way to edit it out of the film in another thread if GL ever decides to make a Special Edition of TPM that the fans will really like.

The virgin birth is ridiculous too. GL is only using this as an excuse to make Anakin seem like such an important child. No one cares. A father that had been killed would have been a better solution.

So in a nutshell, the perfect TPM would have no mention of midichlorians and no Jar-Jar, or at least less of him and his comedy. The other stuff I could live with, but these I can't.

El Chuxter
02-18-2002, 03:46 PM
I actually liked TPM, but here's a few reasons it didn't live up to all my expectations and isn't as much fun to re-watch as the CT.

1) There were too many characters who just happened to tie in. Artoo just happened to be Amidala's astromech. Threepio just happened to be built by Ani (even though this contradicts all pre-1999 bios that he's over a century old and has never had a memory wipe). Jabba just happened to run Mos Espa. Bib Fortuna just happened to be his majordomo (again contradicting an EU story that is actually superior to the film, not to mention making him pretty old). Diva Shaliqua just happened to wear Leia's slave garb. Jawas just happened to shout "Uttini!" when the pods passed by. Greedo just happened to be a child contemporary of Anakin (yet again contradicting better stories).

2) Tatooine. For the planet furthest from the bright center of the universe, everything sure revolves around it.

3) Yoda. He acted like a dingleberry and, well, if he's so prominent in the Jedi order, why was he never part of the purge?

4) Maul. There was the enormous buildup of this character, and for what? I don't even think he was in the movie long enough to qualify as a pit bull!

5) Jar Jar. He was funny for the first five minutes, and could've been funny for two hours if he wasn't shoved down our throats.

I'd not thought about the Battle Droids, but for droids that lack even menial intelligence--they're controlled by the Neimoidian battleship, and their heads fall off with even a slight tap!--they said a lot of stupid things.

SithDroid
02-18-2002, 06:20 PM
Good points El Chuxter. Why does Lucas decide that he can just dismiss the EU? Some of it is far superior to the stuff that he is writing. But because SW is "his baby," then we all have to suffer when GL doesn't do his homework. If GL doesn't care about holding up the integrity of the EU, then stop making stuff. None of the comic books OR the novels conflict with each other. If the two seperate companies can keep track of over 300+ comics and 100+ novels and not screw up continuity, then surely someone can advise GL of how to do it. I just think GL didn't do his homework before he wrote TPM and it shows in the film. That and GL isn't the same person he was when he made SW back in 1977. Plus he hadn't directed or written a screenplay in over 20 years. All he ever did after SW was produce. He has been out of practice for such a long time that it shows on the screen. Plus if I recall from interviews with Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher, they said that GL never really new how to direct. He was extremely quiet. A lot of the stuff that happened was because they created it themselves including Anthony Daniels improvising most of his classic lines. I don't know perhaps I'm being over critical, but I like continuity of things and if it gets messed up I tend to blame the person responsible and that person, this time, just happens to be GL. I am an actor/writer so I am probably more judgemental than other people would be.

JediTricks
02-19-2002, 01:55 AM
Crap, I forgot about Yoda in my list. Yoda should never have been in this movie, it hurts his OT character too much and adds absolutely nothing to the story. If he had been referred to in a discussion with Obi-Wan about training, that might have worked, but seeing him didn't work for me.

I also forgot about the "Kevin Bacon" effect this movie created. There are way too few degrees of separation between some characters now thanks to Ep 1, did Jabba really have to be the Hutt who started the race, did Bib really have to be his majordomo, did 3PO really have to meet R2 "for the first time"?

Wolfwood319
02-19-2002, 03:27 AM
I don't think GL has to stick to "EU" but I definately think that TPM tied in with OT way too much.

Anakin should've been about 13, not 9. Its going to be hard to see a relationship develop between Anakin and Padme, when in the last movie, one was almost 20 and the other was a kid.

Qui-Gon's role up to coruscant should've been Obi-Wan, Obi should've found Anakin on Tatooine, too.

Jar Jar should've been less of a comedic tool, and instead a fully fleshed out character, a lot of potential wasted IMO

More of Maul, he really didn't do anything besides the Jedi duel

Less FX, if I want to watch scenes of nothing but cgi models on screen, I'll watch Toy Story. That gungan battle still looks like a cartoon to me. What ever happened to muppets?

There shouldn't have been 4 battles going on at the same time at the end of the flick, it worked in Jedi but really didn't work here.

Midichloreans

Theres more to be fixed, but these are the main things that need fixing, IMO.

SithDroid
02-19-2002, 02:53 PM
One thing I have always wondered is how come in the original trilogy Obi-Wan says to Luke.

"Luke. You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who insrtucted me."

I was always under the impression that Yoda trained Obi-wan instead of Qui-Gon. I guess by instructed he could mean through mentoring, which is what he did in EP I. But in the OT Yoda talks about how Obi-Wan was reckless and I believe at one point uses the word trained. When did Yoda have time to train Obi-Wan? Before Qui-Gon trained him. And if so, when did Yoda join the Jedi Council? It would seem to me that he has served on it for a long time. It also seems like it would be hard to train a Padawan if your time was devoted to the council. Can anyone clear this up for me or is this just another horrible case of GL not doing his homework?

Rollo Tomassi
02-19-2002, 09:02 PM
original post By SithDroid
One thing I have always wondered is how come in the original trilogy Obi-Wan says to Luke.

"Luke. You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who insrtucted me."

Yoda acts a general instructor for all the young Jedi Hopefuls. Up until age 12 or 13 all trainees are instructed in a general classroom type setting by the resident Jedi, including members of the council. At that age, the trainees are accepted by a Jedi Knight in one on one training. Those that are chosen become Padawans, those that aren't "wash out" of the program and continue to do the galaxy's good will in the Agri Corps.

So why didn't Obi Wan mention Qui Gon? Well does this make sense? "You will go to the Dagobah System. There you will learn from Qui Gon Jinn, the Jedi master that instructe..er...wait. Scratch that. He's dead. Never mind."

He didn't lie or mislead Luke. it's just that bringing up the poor deceased QGJ was irrelevant since he was sending him to YODA.

mark2d2
03-03-2002, 01:11 AM
I could write a book about this . . . it's so depressing to think how easily this film could have been saved.

IT ALL GETS BACK TO THE WRITING. Lucas hates writing. And it shows. This script it flawed on every level. Lame Humor. Clunky exposition. Overly long endless Tattooine sequences. There is just no logic at work in this film. Every where you look, things just don't make sense.

Obscure example --- when Qui Gon and Jar Jar fall to the ground and the tank rolls over them --- why doesn't anybody from the tank open fire on them? I just don't get it. This has always bothered me. Obiwan is being chased relentlessly --- and the tank just ignores them. Why?

ANAKIN SHOULD HAVE LOST THE POD RACE --- this would have been a hell of a shock. And complicated things in a much more interesting way. The whole Tattooine sequence is tedious, dull, yet somehow ridiculous. Is WATTO really the only guy on the entire planet that has a Hyperdrive? Couldn't Qui Gon just go and find a money lender or a bank and change the Republic Credits for something more acceptable. Or just used the Jedi Mind Trick on somebody else. It's a big planet. And everybody has a space ship . . .

BAD ACTING. Not only from the Jake. But the Nemoidians voices sound like me doing a really ill advised cold reading or improv (I do comedy a bit in LA.) These two voices are embarrassingly amateurish IMOP. Also, Hugh M. --- the Queen's Security guy is just utterly wretched. His line readings are all so phony and flat and lifeless. It's people like this that lead fans to write into the Insider asking how they can Audition for the films. Only to get that standard BS from that Hack Robin Casting Chick that "We can only see Professional Actors..." Really? Then where did you dig up half of this crew. They seriously ALL suck. Anybody who has even done a third grade school play (uh . . . except maybe Jake) could act the pants off Ole Hugh. Thank God he demanded too much money for the sequel. (More Money? Is he on Crack? Did he watch the film?)

Oh, I can't go on. It's all too depressing.

PS --- R2 on the Queen's ship made sense. (That's how he ends up with Leia.) But Threepio being built by Darth Vader? Uh, okay, whatever. Silly. Heck, I'd been more impressed if C3PO had been used instead of TC14 -- as far fetched as that would've been, it wouldn't have been as ridiculous as Vader builds a robot . . .

PS 2 --- Yes. Anakin should've been 17. And since he started out as a normal happy 17 year old, we could all have just assumed that he was a normal happy little lad at 9. Why did we need to see this? The Logic of this never made sense. What is this kiddy obsession? I bet in the next Special Edition Mark Hamill will be digitally replaced with that kid Malcolm in the Middle.

SithDroid
03-03-2002, 01:43 AM
GL never really had a knack for writing. He had some great ideas, but didn't know how to execute them. For instance, if you ever get a chance to read the original copy of Star Wars from 1975 then read it. I believe it was called "The Further Adventures of Luke Starkiller," or something to that effect. Although be careful, because there is also a 2nd and 3rd and I believe a 4th draft until we see the final version that we know of today. Some of it was just horendous. Here are some examples for those of you unfamiliar with it. In one of the versions R2-D2 talks to C-3P0 (I think they have differnt names though) like they are a slapstick Laurel and Hardy or Abbott and Costello. Also the character that manifested as Han was in all actuallity a Jedi to begin with, but had affairs with women in closets (or something to that effect, it's been a while since I've read these). Anyway trust me, the writing was less than stellar and like I said in a thread that I started entitled "Would SW have been as popular if..." that the designers of the costumes, sets, special effects, props, etc... is what makes it SW. They deserve most of the credit. Take all that away and we have a pretty basic story between good and evil. Unfortunately no one would ever dare challenge GL's ideas because as everyone has stated before "it's his baby." But in all actuality, it was a creative team effort. It is no wonder that after GL did the original SW all he did was produce until it was time to make EP I. He has been out of practice for 20 years. Anyway I could go on and on about this some more, but I'll choose to stop here.

mark2d2
03-04-2002, 04:01 AM
I've thought some more on this subject, and the real problem is that TPM lacks any real sense of danger. Much has been made by fans of ESB (myself included) about how wonderfully dark that film is. True, very true. But there is also some seriously bleak stuff in ANH. Luke returns home to find the charred skeletons of his only family (the grisliest moment in any of the films IMOP.) Meanwhile Leia's entire planet gets blown up. Oh and before that she's tortured by the creepiest robot ever. So, you know right off the bat that the Empire is not to be taken lightly . . .

In TPM, the Trade Federation doesn't really do much. Oh, they blockade a planet. Big whoop. But the whole thing is so civilized. Nobody even appears to get roughed up. Later we hear that "The death toll is catastrophic..." Really? How? How are the people dying? And then Obiwan's line, "It's a trick. Send no reply." implies that this is all a lie anyway. Frankly, Sio Bibble looks no worse for the wear in his hologram. As an aspiring screenwriter -- this is such an easy fix. Simply Kill Sio Bibble during his transmission! Have Nute Gunray shoot him or something.
___________________________________________

SIO BIBBLE
...you must contact me---

Suddenly there is a blinding flash of light and Sio falls to the floor dead, revealing Nute Gunray, his smoking gun still in hand.

NUTE GUNRAY
I am afraid that time had passed, your highness.
You carelessly left behind so many of your house
hold, it will take us some time to determine who
exactly shall be next. I do so hate these petty
details... Unless, of course, you should somehow
see fit to return and discuss this in a more civilized
manner. Though I realize now, you are not so
easily persuaded...
____________________________________________

Talk about chilling. (Hey, he's already blown-up the entire flight crew of the Jedi ship, so --- really --- wouldn't this have been a logical thing to do?) Now something would really be at stake here.

Also, it doesn't help matters that we've already been told that the Federation can't kill the Queen because they need her to sign the treaty. Leia had no such safety net. When Tarkin orders her life terminated you know he means business as he just obliterated an entire planet.

So, there you have it. The reason the movie drags is no one is ever in any real danger. They all just seem to be somewhat inconvenienced . . .

Lobito
03-05-2002, 03:38 PM
I think that the Neimodians should have spoken in a different language...(Like Jabba or Greedo). Add subtitles to that.

The scene where JJBinks is with the Eopie should have been removed.

I have no complains about the midichlorians, but i would have liked to know more about Darth Maul and Yoda.

Thats it.

JediTricks
03-05-2002, 05:30 PM
The neimoidians are trade negotiators, I would think they'd want to speak as many major langauges out there as possible to streamline negotiations and such, rather than depending on a droid to properly translate business dealings.

Lobito
03-05-2002, 05:35 PM
When they speak to humans is a go, but when they speak between themselves does not match.

mark2d2
03-05-2002, 09:33 PM
I agree. Subtitles would have been cool.

Admittedly none of us would care if their voices hadn't been so poorly done. "Are you Braindead?" Uh, clearly someone at Lucasfilm was . . .

Padmé Skywalker
03-07-2002, 05:53 PM
i think c3po with no coverings was a mistake and also his relationship with r2d2 isnt expressed much in the film

star wars forever!
padmé!

p.s. like the picture of you pendo on your profile. are you single

Pendo
03-07-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Padmé Skywalker
p.s. like the picture of you pendo on your profile. are you single


Thank you! I've gone all red now!

PENDO!

Lman316
03-07-2002, 06:19 PM
My biggest complaint with Episode 1 was the use of "known" or famous actors, especially Jake Lloyd.
As I see it (I might be wrong, seeing as I'm only 18) when Star Wars first came out, the characters were played by less than really famous actors. I know that Cushing had his movies, Alec Guiness probably had his, especially in the theater, and Ford had a few movies before that. But I think that Hamil and Fisher were relatively unknown at that point. I think that made a big impact on the movie.
I guess what I'm basically saying is that Star Wars wouldn't work if say, Nicolas Cage or Arnold were in these movies (although, I had heard something about Stallone wanting to play Solo, and that really wouldn't have worked, if it was true). So people like Jake Lloyd, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, and Ewan Mcgregor (even though, I think he can get away with it) really shouldn't be playing these parts.
I really didn't like Lloyd in this movie though. There are other child actors who probably could have pulled this off a lot better than he did. He really sounded horrible. But moving from the actor to the character: I don't really agree with saying that he should have been older. I read something on Starwars.com that made sense to me: since Anakin was younger, there would be more emotion involved with him leaving his mother. If he was a teenager, it might be easier for him to leave his mom. Even though, since she's the only family that he had, that bond might still be as strong. But it seems that a smaller kid wouldn't go so easily.

I liked some of the CGI, but some of the podracers just looked too cartoonish. Puppets work fine for me.

I had heard about an alternate story, where Obi-Wan was the master and Qui-Gon was his apprentice. I think this could have worked, and might have made the story better, but I'll wait to make my final judgment after I've seen the other two Episodes.

Other than those few things, though, I liked the Phantom Menace. It's actually my second favorite of the four so far, Jedi being the first.

2-1B
03-08-2002, 01:06 AM
Pendo, you wouldn't happen to be in the arse kicking business, would you? :D :D :D

I agree with you that there were too many characters being introduced. I know the idea behind it was that they were setting up for the rest of the films . . . I just think they took that task too literally. The audience should be able to pick up on who the characters are without having to sit through so many introduction scenes :zzz:

Jedi meet Jar Jar, Jedi meet Boss Nass, Qui-Gonn meets Watto, Qui-Gon meets Anakin, Anakin meets Obi-Wan (a significant element, reduced to . . . "Anakin Skywalker, meet Obi-Wan Kenobi"), Ani's friends meet Shmi, Anakin meets the midichlorians :D and the list goes on.

I believe most of the introductions made in the OT are used for critical points where the film needs to keep moving along. :)

SithDroid
03-08-2002, 01:19 AM
GL has just lost the knack for writing. He hasn't written or directed in 20 years and then decides to take on something this huge as TPM. He should have handed over the franchise to someone else. The creativity is all gone from GL IMO. I hope AOTC makes up for TPM.

stillakid
03-08-2002, 01:46 AM
Just repeating what's been said already, but

Pacing of the story was uneven: odd introduction to unfolding events at the beginning, seguing into a drawn out too long Tatooine sequence, etc

Bad acting: Jake Lloyd was the wrong choice for Anakin as he couldn't act very well, although much of the trouble was the poor dialogue he was asked to utter (whoo hoo, yippee, etc)
Sam Jackson never looked believable in the council chamber. Liam can do better, I've seen it in movies like Rob Roy and Darkman of all things. He appeared to be very un-directed in this, like he had no idea how his character should react to anything. The Naboo fighter pilots delivered their lines horribly. The ANH fight was far more believable than this blue-screen farce.

Dumb story elements: Why does the submarine lose power for no reason at all? Same way out of trouble twice in the sub. etc.

Midichlorians. Need I say more.

Qui Gonn: Never mentioned in the OT and took away ALL of the things that were Obi Wan's to do as described in the OT.

Jar Jar: annoying to most, not as endearing to children as GL thinks he is. Should have been martyred at the end to "fulfill" his life debt and give him an actual reason to be in the story beyond comic relief.

Movie moments: ie., when the heroes stumble upon Maul in the Naboo hangar bay, the soldiers should have opened fire immediately. Instead, just to "show off" the moment, everybody freezes and gives the bad guy time to fire up his weapons and look "cool." Also, the (cue patriotic music) INTRODUCTION of R2 D2! dum de dum! How cheesy do you get?

Amidala: Great look! but what's up with that ridiculous over the top "voice/accent" thing? dumb.

Boss Nass: interesting character, but nearly impossible to understand most of the words coming out of his mouth.

What we didn't see and should have was the massive invasion of the planet Naboo. We are led to believe that people are suffering and dying by the millions yet this is the most calm looking battle ground since the invention of the board game.

Plus everything that JediTricks said.

Lucas has dug a hole that he can't get out of but maybe Jonathan Hale has performed some semblence of damage control to make Ep II palatable.

Pendo
03-12-2002, 03:29 PM
Just watched TPM again, and there are a few more things I dislike about it which I don't think have been posted...

The colour of the text on the opening crawl is a much darker colour than was origionally used.

And what about Obi-Wan's changing hairstyle. You'd think with all the technology they would be able to make his hair the same all the way through, or at least make a better wig.

Also, there are only about 5 or 6 different looking gungans, then all the others look exactly the same. You'd think they would at least make them all individuals (Answers maybe revealed in Attack of the Clones :)).

PENDO!

Pendo
10-21-2003, 07:24 AM
Sorry to bring this back up, but while watching The Phantom Menace the other day I came up with some things that I believe would have made the movie better:

Why did George Lucas decided to create the planet Naboo? Why couldn't he have just made it Alderaan? They're both peaceful planets with many similarities, the Leia being brought up in the Alderaan Royal family would immediatly be explained (although it'll probably be explained in Episode III anyway), and it would have stoped people asking why Naboo isn't in the OT. It would have also meant George wouldn't need to try and fit Alderaan into Episode III. The destruction of Alderaan would also be much more emotional in A New Hope. I just can't see the point Naboo and Alderaan being two separate places when making Naboo Alderaan from the start would have made things much easier.

I also think Obi-Wan should have took the role of Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan should have been the master, and Qui-Gon the apprentice. It should have been Obi-Wan who went into Mos Espa and found Anakin. Just by reversing their roles I believe the movie could have fitted in a lot better with the rest of the Saga.

I still believe TPM is a cool film (and prefer it to AOTC), but IMO it still could have been better with these differences.

PENDO!

stillakid
10-21-2003, 09:26 AM
Sorry to bring this back up, but while watching The Phantom Menace the other day I came up with some things that I believe would have made the movie better:

Why did George Lucas decided to create the planet Naboo? Why couldn't he have just made it Alderaan? They're both peaceful planets with many similarities, the Leia being brought up in the Alderaan Royal family would immediatly be explained (although it'll probably be explained in Episode III anyway), and it would have stoped people asking why Naboo isn't in the OT. It would have also meant George wouldn't need to try and fit Alderaan into Episode III. The destruction of Alderaan would also be much more emotional in A New Hope. I just can't see the point Naboo and Alderaan being two separate places when making Naboo Alderaan from the start would have made things much easier.

I also think Obi-Wan should have took the role of Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan should have been the master, and Qui-Gon the apprentice. It should have been Obi-Wan who went into Mos Espa and found Anakin. Just by reversing their roles I believe the movie could have fitted in a lot better with the rest of the Saga.

I still believe TPM is a cool film (and prefer it to AOTC), but IMO it still could have been better with these differences.

PENDO!


Good observation about Alderaan/Naboo. I hadn't thought of that before.

Of course I agree 150% about Obi/Qui Gon. George screwed that one up completely. No excuses.

As far as it being a cool film, despite it's obvious faults, I've always thought that it (and AOTC) always had the elements in it to make a great film. What George neglected to do was hire a competent screenwriter to do a polish or two, just like he did in the old days. I know for a fact that a very prominent writer was asked and was ready to do just that (I know because I've talked to him about it within the last couple of months) but because George is staunchly anti-Writer's Guild (and anti-union, which is why he shoots in foreign countries), he put ego and politics over the quality of his prequels. I reread this thread and noticed someone else mention George's lack of writing skills, a point I've made frequently. What we see onscreen with the prequels is very similar in quality to his early drafts of "The Star Wars" or the "Starkiller" drafts. All in desperate need of polishing. Fortunately for all of us, he saw the benefit of getting help where he needed it most. But sadly, what could've been great twenty-five years later deserves all the negative criticism that gets heaped on it. :(

JEDIpartner
10-21-2003, 10:23 AM
Why didn't he just make Naboo "Alderaan"? Well... quite possibly (and I'm just guessing about this) because Anakin probably would have gone looking for his child there since it was obviously his wife's homeworld. Padme's death would leave little or no connection to the planet.


Anyhow, I was thinking this: The story could take on a similar path while avoiding a lot of the clunkiness of the filmed version. The plot tweaks would be minor but would correct a lot of the problems. So, in short...

The Jedi were sent to the Trade Federation to expedite the negotiaions with Naboo. The Trade Federation imposes a deadline with the Naboo government and if the deadline to agree to their demands would result in an attack on the planet. This would have created that "element of danger" that was brought up earlier in the thread.

As stated before, TC-14 (while I do like "her") could have been easily replaced by C-3P0. Knowing how easily "convinced" the skittish droid is, they could have held him "hostage" and used his knowledge of the Battleship to escape. This would have eliminated the need for Anakin to build him. They would leave him on the battleship and he would accompany the Neimoidians later in the film when they occupy Theed.

Once on the planet, the Jedi would have run into Jar Jar and traveled to Otoh Gunga as written. Jar Jar could have been less goofy and still comical. I have no problem with the story at this point through the arrival on Tatooine.

Once on Tatooine, they meet Anakin in a way that sticks pretty close to the film. Qui-Gon does attempt to find a way where he is able to obtain some of the money to get the hyperdrive, but not enough. He sees Anakin screwing around and using the Force. He senses the child may be "the one" due to some of his feats. There are NO midichlorians. Shmi knows who the father is but does not know where he is as he was an off-worlder and he disappeared soon after Anakin's birth.

Another Hutt instead of Jabba hosts the race. There is no Twi'lek majordomo for the Hutt. Anakin wins the race as written and they head to Coruscant.

The story follow as in the movie with references to the impending "deadline" imposed by the Trade Federation. Sympathy for the Trade Federation is created by false reports of attacks by Naboo forces against Federation ships. This is what holds up the intervention from the Galactic Senate. Vote of "no confidence" is declared and Chancellor Vallorum is removed.

Queen Amidala returns to Naboo and forms an alliance with the Gungans. The battle and encounter with Maul proceeds as filmed.

As Nute Gunray is being taken back to Coruscant after Palpatine arrives we see C-3P0 being left behind as he really didn't have a role in the occupation of Theed. His memory is wiped and he is put into service as a servant to Queen Amidala. Story ends as filmed.

billfremore
10-21-2003, 11:52 AM
BAD ACTING. Not only from the Jake. But the Nemoidians voices sound like me doing a really ill advised cold reading or improv (I do comedy a bit in LA.) These two voices are embarrassingly amateurish IMOP. Also, Hugh M. --- the Queen's Security guy is just utterly wretched. His line readings are all so phony and flat and lifeless. It's people like this that lead fans to write into the Insider asking how they can Audition for the films. Only to get that standard BS from that Hack Robin Casting Chick that "We can only see Professional Actors..." Really? Then where did you dig up half of this crew. They seriously ALL suck. Anybody who has even done a third grade school play (uh . . . except maybe Jake) could act the pants off Ole Hugh. Thank God he demanded too much money for the sequel. (More Money? Is he on Crack? Did he watch the film?)

Hmm, bitter much? :D

All Star Wars films have bad acting. It's part of the charm.
Mark Hamill's extra-whiney performances will not win him any Oscars.

I generally try to defend movies I like (and I know I'm in the minority regarding TPM) but if you don't like certain things in TPM use your fast forward button on your VCR or DVD player. Or you can go to film school, then become independantly wealthy and buy the movies from George Lucas and remake the way you think they should be.

There, problem solved.

JEDIpartner
10-21-2003, 12:22 PM
Well... I suppose that's one way of handling it!

:rolleyes:

billfremore
10-21-2003, 01:19 PM
Sorry I do get a little worked up sometimes without my medication.

Damn fool kids! Get off my lawn!

JediTricks
10-21-2003, 11:44 PM
Why didn't he just make Naboo "Alderaan"? Well... quite possibly (and I'm just guessing about this) because Anakin probably would have gone looking for his child there since it was obviously his wife's homeworld. Padme's death would leave little or no connection to the planet.Yeah, nothing like Luke being raised on Tatooine. :rolleyes: ;) Seriously though, Vader doesn't know Leia exists at all, we're led to believe he didn't know Luke existed either until the kid blew up the Death Star, so why would Anakin/Vader go looking for children he doesn't even know he has?

Jedi_Master_Guyute
10-21-2003, 11:56 PM
Hmm, bitter much? :D

All Star Wars films have bad acting. It's part of the charm.
Mark Hamill's extra-whiney performances will not win him any Oscars.

I generally try to defend movies I like (and I know I'm in the minority regarding TPM) but if you don't like certain things in TPM use your fast forward button on your VCR or DVD player. Or you can go to film school, then become independantly wealthy and buy the movies from George Lucas and remake the way you think they should be.

There, problem solved.

LOL By God, that was a funny post. I mean, not like "ha ha ha ha ha!" funny, but just in the general tone/attitude. lol :crazed:

I agree that none of the SW films are going to win oscars for their acting, but I must say that given the script and whatnot, the actors are doing the best they can. I mean, good lord, do you think it's really easy for Ewan to be staring at a blue screen saying, "If they catch us, they will smash us, and blaaaaaast us into oblivion!!" ( or something along that line).

I must say that TPM isn't really the best of the saga, but i still enjoy watching it. I know there are plot holes and i'm not going to defend it because no amount of defending is going to change the mind of the hardcore fanboy, but to me, it kicked off the Saga properly and thus, i was satisfied. :D

As for the becoming a film maker and buying the films thing, i suggest we start a fund for this. I'll gladly volunteer my paypal account. If anybody wants to make donations, drop me a PM and i'll give you my account name. :p

JEDIpartner
10-22-2003, 10:27 AM
Yeah, nothing like Luke being raised on Tatooine. :rolleyes: ;) True... but historically speaking, if there are no parents, the child would end up going to the mother's family (if they are still alive). Especially if there were no real connections on the father's side. In Anakin's case, Tatooine was the home of his step father and step brother. He only had one encounter with them and so did his so-to-be wife.

Since this practice of handing kids over to the wife's parents happens even today... *shrug*

stillakid
10-22-2003, 11:42 PM
True... but historically speaking, if there are no parents, the child would end up going to the mother's family (if they are still alive). Especially if there were no real connections on the father's side. In Anakin's case, Tatooine was the home of his step father and step brother. He only had one encounter with them and so did his so-to-be wife.

Since this practice of handing kids over to the wife's parents happens even today... *shrug*

Yeah, but it doesn't explain Leia going to non-relatives. This is why George's silly reimagining of his own plot line makes no sense at all. Your idea above is the only possible reason Obi would take Luke to Tatooine now. It certainly isn't a good hiding spot from evil dad and there is no reason to suspect that Obi Wan would even give that dust bowl a second thought after TPM.

It's all so very stupid now. George f'd up sooooo bad. Why why why why why? :(

2-1B
10-23-2003, 03:44 AM
Yeah, but it doesn't explain Leia going to non-relatives.

No it doesn't, but we've seen in the last movie that Padme and Bail are on the Loyalist Committee together. If they expand some more on that in Episode 3 (which I expect them to do), then I can see why Leia would go to Alderaan.
As it stands now, we haven't seen anything which is reason enough for Leia to go with Bail but I think that is coming. :)




It certainly isn't a good hiding spot from evil dad and there is no reason to suspect that Obi Wan would even give that dust bowl a second thought after TPM.

It's all so very stupid now. George f'd up sooooo bad. Why why why why why? :(

Well, I think it depends on how we look at it.
Anakin's mother is now dead and I don't think his single meeting with the Lars family would be reason enough to go back there even before he turns to the Dark Side. If Shmi was still alive, then I think he would still feel connected to Tatooine. She's dead and gone, so he is as well.

As for Obi-Wan not having reason to think of Tatooine, I have to disagree with you there (BTW, he gave it a thought in AOTC when he tracked down Ani's signal on that planet :D ).
I don't know what Episode 3 will hold yet, but if he works with Padme to hide the twins, then it makes sense to me because she has first hand experience of the Lars homestead so that's how Obi-Wan will get his foot in the door.

If Obi-Wan undertakes the hiding of the children completely on his own, then yes I do think it will seem pretty weak for him to go to Tatooine. I just don't think it will happen that way though.

:)

stillakid
10-23-2003, 12:44 PM
No it doesn't, but we've seen in the last movie that Padme and Bail are on the Loyalist Committee together. If they expand some more on that in Episode 3 (which I expect them to do), then I can see why Leia would go to Alderaan.
As it stands now, we haven't seen anything which is reason enough for Leia to go with Bail but I think that is coming. :)





Well, I think it depends on how we look at it.
Anakin's mother is now dead and I don't think his single meeting with the Lars family would be reason enough to go back there even before he turns to the Dark Side. If Shmi was still alive, then I think he would still feel connected to Tatooine. She's dead and gone, so he is as well.

As for Obi-Wan not having reason to think of Tatooine, I have to disagree with you there (BTW, he gave it a thought in AOTC when he tracked down Ani's signal on that planet :D ).
I don't know what Episode 3 will hold yet, but if he works with Padme to hide the twins, then it makes sense to me because she has first hand experience of the Lars homestead so that's how Obi-Wan will get his foot in the door.

If Obi-Wan undertakes the hiding of the children completely on his own, then yes I do think it will seem pretty weak for him to go to Tatooine. I just don't think it will happen that way though.

:)


True all. :) But even if the Padme connection is the motivation (which at this moment appears to be the only logical bridge), it is still a weak element to the story simply because hiding anything there from Anakin isn't a smart thing to do given that he knows about the place. With a galaxy of a billion worlds, why in tarnation would they hide the "last hope" in the one place that Anakin is definitively connected to? :confused: How's George going to justify that adequately?

El Chuxter
11-17-2003, 03:45 PM
Another thing that could've helped (in tandem with and not in opposition to my earlier observation of too many coincidental characters) is. . .

More OT (and even EU) characters!!

Think about it. Nothing at all like "What'd you say your name was?" "Andrew Calrissian." Cut out some of the ridiculous cameos, like Jabba and Bib Fortuna and such. But instead, work in some appearances that make sense (especially if they're minor background appearances like Bib's that aren't directly referred to in the movie).

The same thing can be said about AOTC.

For example:
Where is Mon Mothma? To be such an important Prequel-era Senator, she's been pretty absent so far.

Same thing goes for Garm bel-Iblis.

Why does Palpatine have these goofy alien lackeys? Isn't he anti-alien? Throw in a young Sate Pestage instead.

Why have a gazillion stupid-looking generic Jedi Knights? Think of how cool it was to see Aayla Secura in the flesh. Couldn't Elegos A'kla's grandfather (or great-uncle, or whatever) have been on the Council instead of Goatboy Rancisis?

I could go on, but won't.

JON9000
11-17-2003, 04:08 PM
Like JT, I have a laundry list. But I won't go into all the obvious things like midis, Anakin, and Jar Jar.

TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC- the primary audience for this film should be the fan base, those who have loved it for 25 years. The target audience instead seems to be 5-12 years of age. Look at the sophomoric humor and tell me I am wrong.

BATTLE DROIDS- do these things look even remotely sinister? The humor they engaged in made it even worse.

CRUDDY CGI- I'll say it. Natural environments simply do not convert well to CGI. Space looks fine because it is empty. The bridge of the droid ship looks cool because we have no frame of reference. the battle between the Gungans and the Droids looks horrible, though, because we have all seen an open field and the CGI looks fake. GL makes animated movies just like Pixar, as far as I am concerned.

SHOW, DON'T TELL- waaaaayy to talky. This is a really boring movie on Tatooine and Coruscant.

Since AOTC has come out, I haven't watched TPM. I wnated so much to love it, and it just didn't cut it. :dead:

JediTricks
08-20-2004, 09:15 PM
I am curious if anybody's opinions on the stuff in this thread has changed any, one way or the other. I kinda doubt it, but it seems easy to have some of these things soften as we distance ourselves from the last viewing. I don't remember writing my first post in this thread, it was 2.5 years ago (months before AOTC was released), and while most of it stands up I don't know if I still think Qui-Gon absolutely would not be a member of the Jedi order. Is this because I simply haven't watched the film in a few years, has my mood settled, or did AOTC's content change my mind on this? I honestly don't know.

bigbarada
04-15-2005, 03:56 PM
I am curious if anybody's opinions on the stuff in this thread has changed any, one way or the other. I kinda doubt it, but it seems easy to have some of these things soften as we distance ourselves from the last viewing. I don't remember writing my first post in this thread, it was 2.5 years ago (months before AOTC was released), and while most of it stands up I don't know if I still think Qui-Gon absolutely would not be a member of the Jedi order. Is this because I simply haven't watched the film in a few years, has my mood settled, or did AOTC's content change my mind on this? I honestly don't know.

After nearly six years, I've been looking at Ep1 in the light of Ep2 and Ep3. So here are my ideas for how George could have helped "fix" Ep1 (btw, I still think it was a better overall movie than Ep2).

1. Instead of creating Naboo, give us Alderaan as the world that is being attacked and blockaded. This would have given the movie a clearer sense of history in the grand scheme of things and would make it's destruction in Ep4 actually mean something. It would also greatly increase the "why do I care?" factor.

2. Get rid of the Gungan race. The upcoming Kashyyyk battle for Ep3 is already feeling like a retread because of the Gungan battle in Ep1. That and the fact that the Wookies seem to have the same crappy design sense as the Gungans.

3. Instead of Qui-Gonn and Co. arriving on the eve of the Podrace, have them arrive near the end of the race just before Anakin wins. This would instantly establish him as something special warranting Qui-Gonn's attention, without all the long, boring conversation scenes.

4. Artoo and Threepio had no business in the movie, since their appearance in the prequels only serves to over-complicate the entire story.

5. If it was absolutely necessary for Yoda to be in the prequels, then this should have been his chance to grow as a character. Maybe we could have seen him as something of an underdog not really taken seriously by the other Jedi at the beginning, then proving himself on the battlefields of the Clone Wars. Or something like that.

6. The Jedi should have come across as more like Medieval knights than Buddhist monks. Maybe more brash and hotheaded, not always taking the peaceful way out. They seem to have this bizarre overly-tolerant philosophy which makes you wonder how they ever came to such a position of power in the first place.

7. Finally, this was one change that I never thought I would agree with, but the story would be much better served as a whole if Qui-Gonn's character didn't exist. If Obi-Wan had fulfilled Qui-Gonn's role in the movie, then it wouldn't have create so many questions which Lucas obviously has no intention of answering.

JON9000
04-15-2005, 08:15 PM
1. Instead of creating Naboo, give us Alderaan as the world that is being attacked and blockaded. This would have given the movie a clearer sense of history in the grand scheme of things and would make it's destruction in Ep4 actually mean something. It would also greatly increase the "why do I care?" factor.
That would have been pretty cool.

stillakid
04-15-2005, 11:48 PM
After nearly six years, I've been looking at Ep1 in the light of Ep2 and Ep3. So here are my ideas for how George could have helped "fix" Ep1 (btw, I still think it was a better overall movie than Ep2).

1. Instead of creating Naboo, give us Alderaan as the world that is being attacked and blockaded. This would have given the movie a clearer sense of history in the grand scheme of things and would make it's destruction in Ep4 actually mean something. It would also greatly increase the "why do I care?" factor.

2. Get rid of the Gungan race. The upcoming Kashyyyk battle for Ep3 is already feeling like a retread because of the Gungan battle in Ep1. That and the fact that the Wookies seem to have the same crappy design sense as the Gungans.

3. Instead of Qui-Gonn and Co. arriving on the eve of the Podrace, have them arrive near the end of the race just before Anakin wins. This would instantly establish him as something special warranting Qui-Gonn's attention, without all the long, boring conversation scenes.

4. Artoo and Threepio had no business in the movie, since their appearance in the prequels only serves to over-complicate the entire story.

5. If it was absolutely necessary for Yoda to be in the prequels, then this should have been his chance to grow as a character. Maybe we could have seen him as something of an underdog not really taken seriously by the other Jedi at the beginning, then proving himself on the battlefields of the Clone Wars. Or something like that.

6. The Jedi should have come across as more like Medieval knights than Buddhist monks. Maybe more brash and hotheaded, not always taking the peaceful way out. They seem to have this bizarre overly-tolerant philosophy which makes you wonder how they ever came to such a position of power in the first place.

7. Finally, this was one change that I never thought I would agree with, but the story would be much better served as a whole if Qui-Gonn's character didn't exist. If Obi-Wan had fulfilled Qui-Gonn's role in the movie, then it wouldn't have create so many questions which Lucas obviously has no intention of answering.

I like all of your suggestions there. :) I hadn't thought of the Jedi in those terms before. An interesting take on them. I agree that Yoda's role needed to play out very differently than what we're getting. At present, he doesn't really offer anything at all. All the Jedi are rather interchangable. And as for the upcoming Wookies, I've been having the same dread myself. The design doesn't seem quite right somehow and it all seems rather repetitive. I mean, I think I might have been okay with it sort of had we just had the Ewoks and then the Wookies. But with the geeky Gungans tossed in between, the quintessential nature vs. technology battle is being waaaaaaaaaaaaaay overdone.

bigbarada
04-16-2005, 06:23 PM
A lot of what we see in the prequels makes me think that George's well of original ideas dried up long ago and we're just getting stylized rehashes of ideas that just weren't quite good enough to make it into the original films.

Turambar
04-16-2005, 10:09 PM
A lot of what we see in the prequels makes me think that George's well of original ideas dried up long ago and we're just getting stylized rehashes of ideas that just weren't quite good enough to make it into the original films.

Great ideas, big B. I especially like that about the Jedi Knights. I've never cared for them in the prequels, but I could never put my finger on the reason. If done that way, they would have been much more interesting characters -- maybe we could have seen the wild and crazy Obi-Wan that the spirit of obiwan falsely refers to in ESB.
I think it would have been markedly better if it had stuck with the Trilogy timeline by presenting an older Anakin who falls to the darkside in his mid-thirties. The prequels could have been set during the clone wars, and we could have seen Anakin as everything he is falsely described as in the trilogy.
Then, depict a more tragic (and shocking) fall. Anakin thinks he must use the dark side to help save people as opposed to what we've seen where he is a jerk and already half-way sith in AOTC. At least play it off where it is tragic instead of the "good riddance" that I feel for him, now.

jjreason
04-16-2005, 10:57 PM
Besides the "sillies" - an affliction which has befallen 3 SW movies in a row at this point (Chewie's "Tarzan" yell in ROJ, "That's gotta hurt!!!" and the fart joke in TPM, and "This is such a drag" in AOTC are all examples) - Looking back, I would have advise George to go back in his time machine and change the following about TPM:

1) Use Hayden as Anakin. I don't think Anakin needed to be so young in the first movie; it would be better to make him 14-15 to go along with Padme's 16 or 17. Much, MUCH more believable that sparks could start to fly upon a later meeting if they were to meet each other at those ages. It would also lend itself better to Ani being a great pilot and podracer; I find it's quite a stretch to buy into the kid doing these things.

2) Make JarJar more "cool". Less silliness, George. The looks of him was plenty silly enough without the slapstick.

3) Move the final big battle completely onto Naboo. Use the land battle as it exists, and incorporate a large Gungan attack against an underwater Trade Federation force. An older Anakin could then have figured out somehow that the Trade Fed Command ship was defenseless in space then flown off and blown it up somehow.

I must say, I don't think TPM was a failure as a movie. I thought it established a new (if not improved) "feel" to the SW Saga, while going to some length to tie it into what came before. I liked the characters, I don't have a big problem with the whole Chosen One / Midichlorian issue, I thought the CG stuff looked great, and I thought the story worked fine. I just would have taken a few detours between points A and B.

stillakid
04-16-2005, 11:21 PM
A lot of what we see in the prequels makes me think that George's well of original ideas dried up long ago and we're just getting stylized rehashes of ideas that just weren't quite good enough to make it into the original films.

I get that feeling from a lot of the "new" designs we're seeing for ROTS. In particular, that speeder bike thing that we can get as a toy...I swear I've seen that kind of thing in the reject pile from ROTJ. Very little actual creativity is occurring in the vicinity of the Ranch anymore, and that makes me sincerely sad. :( The Prequels could have been absolutely fantastic and been the center of anticipation for so many generations. But instead, it has become a stellar disappointment and the object of ridicule save for a few remaining uber-fans.

darko666
04-17-2005, 12:16 PM
I swear I've seen that kind of thing in the reject pile from ROTJ. Very little actual creativity is occurring in the vicinity of the Ranch anymore, and that makes me sincerely sad.

it's not so much that the artist are maybe lacking in the drawing department. it's that Lucas picks the worst ideas out of the whole lineup of concept art and then makes more modifications to them. when i look at the art books for the movies, and i see what could have been in the movies, or what characters could have looked like, i get dissapointed.
i mean, episode II should have had a female sith, like the artbook showed. ah well, i will just wait until another anniversary, when Lucas remakes the prequels.

bigbarada
04-17-2005, 04:12 PM
I don't want to give the misconception that I hate the prequels. As a stand-alone set of movies they are leaps and bounds better than 90% of the sci-fi movies we get today. As a tie-in to the original series they are lacking. Instead of shedding light on and clarifying much of the backstory of the OT, they primarily serve to over-convolute the whole story.

As I am starting to study more about film editing and animation in college, I am beginning to understand how many of the criticisms of the PT can be considered a fact rather than an opinion. If the story doesn't work then it doesn't work. It has nothing to do with personal tastes or opinions. There is an objective (factual) aspect to all art as well as a subjective (opinion) aspect.

However, if someone is able to overlook these problems and enjoy the movie anyway, then more power to them. Now that I realize that the problems are really there, and it's not just over-critical, jaded fanboys talking, I can actually enjoy the movies for what they are, warts and all.:)

I actually believe that it would be in everyone's best interest for Lucas to completely remake episodes 4-6 with a new story and new actors, etc. While this might sound crazy, think about it.

It would forever divorce the prequels from the OT and create a completely separate and unrelated storyline. Similar to the new Battlestar Galactica TV series.

Thus you would have fans of the OT, fans of the "neo-Saga" and possibly even a few fans of both.

stillakid
04-17-2005, 08:12 PM
I don't want to give the misconception that I hate the prequels. As a stand-alone set of movies they are leaps and bounds better than 90% of the sci-fi movies we get today. As a tie-in to the original series they are lacking. Instead of shedding light on and clarifying much of the backstory of the OT, they primarily serve to over-convolute the whole story.

As I am starting to study more about film editing and animation in college, I am beginning to understand how many of the criticisms of the PT can be considered a fact rather than an opinion. If the story doesn't work then it doesn't work. It has nothing to do with personal tastes or opinions. There is an objective (factual) aspect to all art as well as a subjective (opinion) aspect.

However, if someone is able to overlook these problems and enjoy the movie anyway, then more power to them. Now that I realize that the problems are really there, and it's not just over-critical, jaded fanboys talking, I can actually enjoy the movies for what they are, warts and all.:)
Would you mind forwarding this bit over to our friends, JJB and Minirock amongst others. They might listen to you. They gave up on me a long arse time ago. :D


I actually believe that it would be in everyone's best interest for Lucas to completely remake episodes 4-6 with a new story and new actors, etc. While this might sound crazy, think about it.

It would forever divorce the prequels from the OT and create a completely separate and unrelated storyline. Similar to the new Battlestar Galactica TV series.

Thus you would have fans of the OT, fans of the "neo-Saga" and possibly even a few fans of both.

I get the distinct sense that GL is actually kind of doing that in a back-handed manner with the constant "upgrades" to the OT. While I sincerely disagree with the strategy of degrading the OT to the Prequel level instead of improving the Prequels to attain the OT level, in the end, if GL is after a consistent 6 part story, then something's gotta give. It's unfortunate that he's choosing to destroy the good films that were the originals, but at least future generations will be able to enjoy a semi-coherent story even though it sits comfortably within the realm of mediocrity.

LTBasker
04-17-2005, 09:11 PM
1. Instead of creating Naboo, give us Alderaan as the world that is being attacked and blockaded. This would have given the movie a clearer sense of history in the grand scheme of things and would make it's destruction in Ep4 actually mean something. It would also greatly increase the "why do I care?" factor.

While not completely needed, it would be really interesting. However there would be the problem that Padme being Queen of Alderaan and then them announcing a new Princess (even with the Organa name) could lead Vader to finding out about Leia much sooner. It would be too close together.

Suppose though if Amidala stepped off the thrown in order to be more of a Senator and the Organas took rule then it would be better hidden and could work.


2. Get rid of the Gungan race. The upcoming Kashyyyk battle for Ep3 is already feeling like a retread because of the Gungan battle in Ep1. That and the fact that the Wookies seem to have the same crappy design sense as the Gungans.

Like the Naboo/Alderaan thing, it's not completely needed. They could've been made much more intelligent and just been more of a co-species with the humans. Changing Naboo to Alderaan would also explain why we don't see Gungans in the OT.


3. Instead of Qui-Gonn and Co. arriving on the eve of the Podrace, have them arrive near the end of the race just before Anakin wins. This would instantly establish him as something special warranting Qui-Gonn's attention, without all the long, boring conversation scenes.

Yes, that would be great! They could even include the podrace from start as well, just have Qui-Gon be there because Watto is hard to get ahold of and could only be found there for public deals.


4. Artoo and Threepio had no business in the movie, since their appearance in the prequels only serves to over-complicate the entire story.

Now this I actually disagree with, I don't mind them being in the movies, however 3PO's origin is rather FUBAR. R2's being in the service of the Queen makes sense, it makes sense they would have R2 stay with Leia to be her bodyguard/"friend" through childhood. He could even be aware that Leia and Luke are siblings (which would explain why he stays with Luke so much). 3PO can be explained by getting his mindwiped (afterall, he is a loud-mouth).


5. If it was absolutely necessary for Yoda to be in the prequels, then this should have been his chance to grow as a character. Maybe we could have seen him as something of an underdog not really taken seriously by the other Jedi at the beginning, then proving himself on the battlefields of the Clone Wars. Or something like that.

I don't think he really needs THAT much of a change, but definitely a change. He should've had more character than just sitting around embarassing Obi-Wan in front of kids. :p


7. Finally, this was one change that I never thought I would agree with, but the story would be much better served as a whole if Qui-Gonn's character didn't exist. If Obi-Wan had fulfilled Qui-Gonn's role in the movie, then it wouldn't have create so many questions which Lucas obviously has no intention of answering.

Yes! Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that. Qui-Gon was completely pointless in the end seeing as he died before we really knew much about him and nothing really depended on him. Obi-Wan was more of a sidekick, there was little reason for there to be a new Jedi. If there was really a need for two Jedi, then maybe Yoda could've been Qui-Gon's part. Learning from Yoda like that would explain how Obi-Wan goes from really impatient to the wise old fool in ANH. :P

I also definitely agree with the fact Anakin should've been older. I'd say maybe along the lines of 12-14. Then AOTC could've had him during his young Padawan years at 16-18, and then ROTS at around 21 or so. A 10 year gap is WAY too much.


Would you mind forwarding this bit over to our friends, JJB and Minirock amongst others. They might listen to you. They gave up on me a long arse time ago. :D

Stilla, it's one thing to express your opinion on why you have a problem with the prequels and try to explain it, but trying to enforce it on others is rather ridiculous. It should not be a matter to you wether or not they like it.

2-1B
04-17-2005, 10:08 PM
Pretty much, Basker. :)

If this were a religious thread, stillakid would be just as condescending to bigB as he is being toward JJB and Minirock. Strange bedfellows, eh ? :D

stillakid
04-18-2005, 12:45 AM
While not completely needed, it would be really interesting. However there would be the problem that Padme being Queen of Alderaan and then them announcing a new Princess (even with the Organa name) could lead Vader to finding out about Leia much sooner. It would be too close together.

Suppose though if Amidala stepped off the thrown in order to be more of a Senator and the Organas took rule then it would be better hidden and could work.



Like the Naboo/Alderaan thing, it's not completely needed. They could've been made much more intelligent and just been more of a co-species with the humans. Changing Naboo to Alderaan would also explain why we don't see Gungans in the OT.



Yes, that would be great! They could even include the podrace from start as well, just have Qui-Gon be there because Watto is hard to get ahold of and could only be found there for public deals.



Now this I actually disagree with, I don't mind them being in the movies, however 3PO's origin is rather FUBAR. R2's being in the service of the Queen makes sense, it makes sense they would have R2 stay with Leia to be her bodyguard/"friend" through childhood. He could even be aware that Leia and Luke are siblings (which would explain why he stays with Luke so much). 3PO can be explained by getting his mindwiped (afterall, he is a loud-mouth).



I don't think he really needs THAT much of a change, but definitely a change. He should've had more character than just sitting around embarassing Obi-Wan in front of kids. :p



Yes! Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that. Qui-Gon was completely pointless in the end seeing as he died before we really knew much about him and nothing really depended on him. Obi-Wan was more of a sidekick, there was little reason for there to be a new Jedi. If there was really a need for two Jedi, then maybe Yoda could've been Qui-Gon's part. Learning from Yoda like that would explain how Obi-Wan goes from really impatient to the wise old fool in ANH. :P

I also definitely agree with the fact Anakin should've been older. I'd say maybe along the lines of 12-14. Then AOTC could've had him during his young Padawan years at 16-18, and then ROTS at around 21 or so. A 10 year gap is WAY too much.



Stilla, it's one thing to express your opinion on why you have a problem with the prequels and try to explain it, but trying to enforce it on others is rather ridiculous. It should not be a matter to you wether or not they like it.

I was responding to Big B's comment regarding the difference between "fact" and "opinion" in this matter. I trusted that that would be clear to the peanut gallery. Apparently not. Also, I had no problem stepping aside to give Big B his time, but you'll note that a lot of what he had to say has been coming from "the likes of me" for a long time now. Big B, amongst others, are seeing the light, as it were, whereas many people arrived at that point some time ago. Sometimes it takes a bit of distance before we can see the difference between reality and what we wish was reality and it's heartening to see that some people have that strength within them. And for anyone who is familiar with a fine fellow like Big B, the move to "my camp," as it were in this matter of Star Wars, speaks volumes. Strange bedfellows indeed! :D

LTBasker
04-18-2005, 01:51 PM
I was responding to Big B's comment regarding the difference between "fact" and "opinion" in this matter. I trusted that that would be clear to the peanut gallery. Apparently not.

Odd, because the rest of that reply suggests that your side is the proper side to be on and you were doing BigB a favor by letting him voice his opinion. BigB really has nothing to do with this though, I'm talking about there was no reason to bring up JJB and Minirock or anybody at all in that way. Doing so is more like trying to rub it in their face that someone agrees with you. That's just to me though, I don't know how they feel about it I just thought it was pretty rude.

I really don't know where you're going with this whole "seeing the light" biz, some people just don't care that much about movies and are happy with just enjoying them.

I find it very scary that I'm pretty much on the "same side" as you. Anyhoo if you want to say anything else to me about this feel free to PM me so as to not derail the thread further.

Back on topic: TPM bad, wraa.

stillakid
04-19-2005, 01:10 AM
Odd, because the rest of that reply suggests that your side is the proper side to be on and you were doing BigB a favor by letting him voice his opinion.
Well, that's just ridiculous. How could I do anybody a favor by letting them post. It's not my website. :rolleyes: Honestly, where do you come up with this stuff?


BigB really has nothing to do with this though, I'm talking about there was no reason to bring up JJB and Minirock or anybody at all in that way. Doing so is more like trying to rub it in their face that someone agrees with you. That's just to me though, I don't know how they feel about it I just thought it was pretty rude.
Then you missed the point, which I guessed from your first statement above. I can only suggest that you reread what I wrote.




I really don't know where you're going with this whole "seeing the light" biz, some people just don't care that much about movies and are happy with just enjoying them.
If you can't comprehend the whole "seeing the light biz" then I can't explain it any further. As far as just enjoying a movie for what it is, I never have had a problem with that. I could care less if somebody likes crap. I've admitted to enjoying flawed movies myself. The point to what I said and the point of my response to the thread topic is that TPM is fundamentally and empirically flawed relative to generally accepted standards of fiction. Big Barada was essentially making the same statement. From that point of view, the issue of certain "Prequel defenders" becomes highly relevant from the standpoint that "they" maintain that the movies are not flawed fundamentally. As BigB alluded to and as I have pretty much stated all along, anyone who doesn't or can't recognize how the Prequels are empirically flawed doesn't really understand what a good story well told is.

So the issue has nothing to do with whether someone chooses to like or enjoy the stories or not. That's not what's in question. The issue is whether these movies are fundamentally flawed relative to generally accepted standards of fiction. Just saying that TPM is "bad" doesn't really add anything to the discussion. It's just a generic opinion of how you felt about the movie while at the same time it is a fact regarding the story relative to the standards of good fiction. In other words, why is it "bad" in your eyes?

cdatkins
04-19-2005, 01:01 PM
Interesting discussion here.

TPM has actually grown more enjoyable over time, for me, especially after seeing AOTC (which I really liked) and with ROTS coming up, I can better see what Lucas is doing with the PT and enjoy TPM more for what it is and not what I wished it would be.

bigbarada
04-19-2005, 09:13 PM
It's nice to know that stillakid and I can FINALLY agree on SOMETHING (apart from how cool the Biker Scouts are). :)

JON9000
04-20-2005, 10:38 AM
While not completely needed, it would be really interesting. However there would be the problem that Padme being Queen of Alderaan and then them announcing a new Princess (even with the Organa name) could lead Vader to finding out about Leia much sooner. It would be too close together.
I thought about that, but seeing as how Luke lives on the moisture farm, how much could it possibly hurt?

bigbarada
04-20-2005, 01:25 PM
I thought about that, but seeing as how Luke lives on the moisture farm, how much could it possibly hurt?

Well, continuity in Star Wars has been in chaos since Return of the Jedi. I believe that retroactively making Luke and Leia twins in Ep6 is a mistake on the same level as creating Qui-Gonn or putting Artoo and Threepio in the prequels (I'll hold my judgement on Chewie until I see Ep3).

JON9000
04-20-2005, 04:17 PM
I believe that retroactively making Luke and Leia twins in Ep6 is a mistake
There had to be something that could have pushed Luke over the edge to the dark side, and that is about the only thing I can think of that would've given enough dramatic oomph to it.

I think that it wasn't entirely thought out from the get-go. I mean, we know Vader was always meant to be Luke's father, hence it makes about zero sense to put Luke on the moisture farm, regardless of the whole twin thing.

It rules regardless. :D

stillakid
04-20-2005, 06:47 PM
There had to be something that could have pushed Luke over the edge to the dark side, and that is about the only thing I can think of that would've given enough dramatic oomph to it.
Roger that. To this day, I still shake my head and wonder why so many people seem to have a problem with the Luke/Leia relationship. Not only does it make complete sense and contradicts nothing from IV or V, but it is probably the ONLY story element that could have pushed Luke to turn to the darkside to defeat Vader. Whether it was Lucas's or Kasdan's idea, it was brilliant and I wouldn't change a thing about it.



I think that it wasn't entirely thought out from the get-go. I mean, we know Vader was always meant to be Luke's father, hence it makes about zero sense to put Luke on the moisture farm, regardless of the whole twin thing.


Well, it used to make complete sense when Owen was Obi Wan's brother. With the original continuity (EU or otherwise), presumably the twins were born and Obi Wan and Yoda knew that the Emperor would want to get his hands on the kids if he ever learned about them. So before Vader or Palps ever even knew that Anakin's wife was pregnant, Obers and Yoda concoct the plan which took Leia to live the good life on Alderaan right under everyone's nose while Obi took Luke to live with the brother Owen. Ben could live life as a hermit, keeping his distance from Luke to not draw undue attention to the boy in case the Empire ever ran across the old Jedi. But he was close enough to keep watch over Luke awaiting the day when Luke might be able to help the Republic. As luck would have it, Ben never had to make the decision to sit Luke down and explain things to him because R2 and 3PO fell out of the sky and into their lives.

But now, with this nonsensical relationship of Owen being semi-related to Anakin who came from that desert planet, it makes NO sense whatsoever. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, placing young Anakin on Tatooine may turn out to be one of the bigger blunders of the Prequels. Not only is there no way to justify it, there was no reason for it at all. Anakin could have grown up anywhere with the same results (he is found by Obi Wan, proves himself to have Force potential and eventually falls prey to Palpatine's seduction...). But putting him on Tatooine introduces a boatload of inescapable plot problems.

2-1B
04-21-2005, 12:27 AM
Gotta disagree with you stillakid on account of this technicality:

yes the novelization expanded things to show us that Owen was Obi-Wan's brother but to the 99.5% of the audience who never read the book and never even heard about the connection, Owen was Luke's "uncle" plain and simple. Just about everybody in the audience could assume that it was a real uncle because there is nothing onscreen to dispute it.

I'll dig up an old thread more germaine to the Owen/Obi-Wan thing and continue there. :)

stillakid
04-21-2005, 09:15 AM
Gotta disagree with you stillakid on account of this technicality:

yes the novelization expanded things to show us that Owen was Obi-Wan's brother but to the 99.5% of the audience who never read the book and never even heard about the connection, Owen was Luke's "uncle" plain and simple. Just about everybody in the audience could assume that it was a real uncle because there is nothing onscreen to dispute it.

I'll dig up an old thread more germaine to the Owen/Obi-Wan thing and continue there. :)

Naturally, I disagree. ;)

Why? Because of this statement:




BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor,
you were hidden from your father when you
were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if
Anakin were to have any offspring, they would
be a threat to him. That is the reason why
your sister remains safely anonymous.


While not an in-your-face statement, the only clear inference one should take from this is that Owen is not really Luke's uncle primarily because it should be more than evident that Obi Wan would NOT hide the potential savior of the galaxy in a place with a man that Anakin would be aware of so personally. It would be like hiding the Bush daughters with Jeb in Florida the next time the law is looking for them for drug violations. Not even W. would be that moronic (...or maybe he would be? :sur: ) But apparently, according to the GL Prequels, Obi Wan is that stupid.

Leia being hidden with a completely unrelated family on a totally different planet tells us that Obi Wan and Yoda knew that they had to keep the children very secret while at the same time placing them in a position in which their superpowers might become useful at some later point. Leia was set up in the diplomatic arena where she might be able to work her magic from inside the system. They dropped Luke in a non-assuming dustbowl where the bad guys would never think to look if they ever found out about the children in the first place. From there, presumably, Ben could train Luke before launching that weapon toward the Empire from the outside. With two Skywalker's attacking both from within and without, the chances of success would double. Even the choice of last names tells us quite clearly what the intention was. Leia being "hidden" in plain view required that she take on a new name, Organa. Luke's hiding place was presumed to be so back-water that his last name could remain "Skywalker." That alone would tell us that Owen and Luke are not related. In order for that to be true, Beru would have had to be the natural relative of Luke, meaning that Anakin would have been Beru's brother. We know that isn't true either according to the GL Prequels. So there is still no way to reconcile the new continuity and support the idea that Obi Wan had any intention to actually hide Luke Skywalker safely.

All of that would be for naught if A) the bad guys ever found out about the children, and B) if the bad guys knew where to look for them. As for "A", we'll have to wait for ROTS to see if Lucas is stupid enough to have Anakin know about the pregnancy before he goes off to become Darth Vader. As for "B," he already blew that one with I and II by originating Ani' on Tatooine along with the notion of marrying Shmi off to the Lars family. Dumb dumb dumb.

But to your original assertion that 95% of the people think (thought)
Just about everybody in the audience could assume that it was a real uncle because there is nothing onscreen to dispute it.

that is false to anyone really paying attention to the story. Audiences have become too lazy and expect every drop of information to be spoon-fed to them. The story in between the lines tells us very clearly that "Uncle" Owen isn't an uncle at all, but a necessary surrogate in order to protect Luke from being discovered. The logic of the entire situation tells us this. Well, at least that's the way it was supposed to be.

TheDarthVader
05-04-2005, 04:11 PM
Stillakid, I can respond to that 10 minute write-up in about 30 seconds.
Ben had a strong feeling that Vader would never again go to Tatooine. Remember, Ben and Vader/Anakin used to be very close!

(Bad memories of the boy he used to be, killing the tuskens, padme, his mother, his mother's death, being a slave,..........do I need to continue?)

B.
TDV

stillakid
05-04-2005, 11:13 PM
Stillakid, I can respond to that 10 minute write-up in about 30 seconds.
Ben had a strong feeling that Vader would never again go to Tatooine. Remember, Ben and Vader/Anakin used to be very close!

(Bad memories of the boy he used to be, killing the tuskens, padme, his mother, his mother's death, being a slave,..........do I need to continue?)

B.
TDV

Yeah, please do because you haven't made a case. The issue with the mother IS the prime reason he WOULD return. Apparently he loved her so much that her death was one of the main reasons he gets all pi$$y and goes Vader on the galaxy. That alone justifies caution in deciding where to hide Luke.

2-1B
05-05-2005, 01:57 AM
edit:

I cut my post and put it in the OT thread on Brother Owen. :)

JEDIpartner
05-12-2005, 03:40 PM
TPM (while I still enjoy it) went wrong when George stripped the nobility out of the tale and pandered to the masses who find Rob Schneider movies funny.

InsaneJediGirl
05-12-2005, 04:36 PM
I think the movie went bad with the childish humor and having the Force explained.First off,I do know it is a "kids" movie,but the "jokes" werent even good,did we really need to hear a creature take a dump?No.

Second,the Force lost all of its mystery when we heard about midicholirans and such.Hey,Qui-Gon,just tell Anakin that the Force is what gives a Jedi his power and move on :)

JON9000
05-12-2005, 04:37 PM
Not only is there no way to justify it, there was no reason for it at all. Anakin could have grown up anywhere with the same results (he is found by Obi Wan, proves himself to have Force potential and eventually falls prey to Palpatine's seduction...). But putting him on Tatooine introduces a boatload of inescapable plot problems.
The only reason I can possibly think of are the practical aspects of telling the story. The prequels would have been much different.

We know Owen, Anakin, and Obi-wan know each other, and we know Owen did not approve of Anakin's choices. (I am assuming for arguments sake that somewhere in ROTS this is depicted- do not tell me either way please). If we were to leave Owen as Obi-wan's brother, somewhere in this prequel trilogy we would have been forced to take some sort of detour with the gang onto Tatooine so Anakin could meet Owen, forge enough of a relationship with him so he could care either way, and then run off against Owen's advice. I am sure it could have been done, but at the end of the day, GL might have decided to take the continuity on the chin in the name of editorial expedience.

I expect this is all part of the difficulty of writing out of a corner, which I expect composing the prequels was.

JEDIpartner
05-12-2005, 04:46 PM
I think the movie went bad with the childish humor and having the Force explained.First off,I do know it is a "kids" movie,but the "jokes" werent even good,did we really need to hear a creature take a dump?No.

Second,the Force lost all of its mystery when we heard about midicholirans and such.Hey,Qui-Gon,just tell Anakin that the Force is what gives a Jedi his power and move on :)

Basically... what I said!

Good job, Little sis!!! Hope you're doing well... :)

InsaneJediGirl
05-12-2005, 08:31 PM
Basically... what I said!

Good job, Little sis!!! Hope you're doing well... :)

I just had to put it in simple terms for users like myself ;):D You know how it is.

2-1B
05-13-2005, 03:08 AM
The only reason I can possibly think of are the practical aspects of telling the story. The prequels would have been much different.

We know Owen, Anakin, and Obi-wan know each other, and we know Owen did not approve of Anakin's choices. (I am assuming for arguments sake that somewhere in ROTS this is depicted- do not tell me either way please). If we were to leave Owen as Obi-wan's brother, somewhere in this prequel trilogy we would have been forced to take some sort of detour with the gang onto Tatooine so Anakin could meet Owen, forge enough of a relationship with him so he could care either way, and then run off against Owen's advice. I am sure it could have been done, but at the end of the day, GL might have decided to take the continuity on the chin in the name of editorial expedience.

I expect this is all part of the difficulty of writing out of a corner, which I expect composing the prequels was.

I've thought of that too, Jon . . . the only way I can think of for the OT Purists to rationalize :p their way out of it is take Ben's comments about Owen wanting Anakin to stay there and have it mean "here" not in the literal Tatooine sense but "here" as in wherever they lived.

Then there's the issue of Ben telling Luke that Owen was afraid of Luke following Ben just like Anakin did, when really, come on guys, if Owen was Ben's brother then why would he give a flip if some unknown Anakin guy went off with his brother Ben and got twisted ?

Sure, now that he's raised Luke he's protective of him and doesn't want harm to come to him but the way Obi-Wan tells things in his place, it just sounds to me like Owen has a problem with Ben taking his "brother" and not the other way around, not Owen's brother taking some stranger he doesn't even know. :rolleyes:

Yes, yes, I know Owen doesn't really "know" Anakin in AOTC either, but at least there's some connection there with Shmi being his stepmom for a few years before she croaked.

Anyway, I think it was a lame idea to write out the ROTJ novelization that way . . .

stillakid
05-13-2005, 09:08 AM
OT Purists
That term of intended derision confuses me. Are you suggesting that people who merely wished that the Prequels remained faithful to the original continuity are wrong about wanting that? :confused: If you're against that kind of logic, then there is no reason for any franchise to remain true to whatever came before (or after as the case may be). Heck, for that matter, why consider continuity at all within the same two hour story? :crazed: George could just change actors midway through, or the entire setting or perhaps the entire genre. What's stopping him since continuity is obviously not a priority for a lot of Star Wars fans? :sur:



take Ben's comments about Owen wanting Anakin to stay there and have it mean "here" not in the literal Tatooine sense but "here" as in wherever they lived.



Then there's the issue of Ben telling Luke that Owen was afraid of Luke following Ben just like Anakin did, when really, come on guys, if Owen was Ben's brother then why would he give a flip if some unknown Anakin guy went off with his brother Ben and got twisted ?
Look, the obvious intention with the OT dialogue was that Obi Wan and Owen were brothers, probably on Tatooine. Obi Wan leaves the family farm to go become a Jedi Knight. Along the way, probably just after "graduation," Obi inadvertently runs into some hotshot freighter pilot named Anakin Skywalker. Obi "feels" how strongly the Force is with this guy and convinces him to train as a Jedi. Inevitably, at some point in the relationship, Obi and Anakin either run into Owen somewhere. Maybe on Tatooine, maybe in Anchorhead, maybe in Mos Eisley, maybe someplace else. I hadn't really thought about it before now, but the most logical time for them to meet would have been when Obi was being transported back home, to Mos Eisley, and the pilot was Anakin. They go get a drink, meet up with Owen who has come to the airport to pick up his brother and whalla, they get to know each other.

Not important really except that Owen being the "stay at home" family member was never really very excited about big city ways the way that his brother Obi Wan was. Every Earthbound family usually has a pairing like this. I know I do. I went off to the big city while one of my brothers stayed back home and looks on trying to figure out how anyone could enjoy that.

But anyway, using that kind of scenario, it all begins to make perfect sense. One might inquire about Vader's non-reaction to Tatooine at the beginning of ANH. I know I do, especially with the brand new Prequel continuity. Well, it still raises an eyebrow, but relative to the Prequel concept, my idea is relatively benign. But even then, we know that Vader suspects that maybe Obi Wan is still alive ("You should not have come back"), so it isn't unreasonable to assume that it crosses Vader's mind that maybe Obi Wan might be on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH. But since he doesn't even flinch about that place, then we should assume that Vader believes Ben to be hiding out somewhere else. Either that, or Vader assumes Ben to be entirely ineffective and not a threat at all at that point.



Sure, now that he's raised Luke he's protective of him and doesn't want harm to come to him but the way Obi-Wan tells things in his place, it just sounds to me like Owen has a problem with Ben taking his "brother" and not the other way around, not Owen's brother taking some stranger he doesn't even know. :rolleyes:
You roll your eyes a lot. :) But I believe that you're mistaken here. Owen's resistance is to save Luke from getting involved in all that mess. He's got a nice safe life here on the farm and if he just minds his chores, he'll eventually find a nice corn-fed woman like Beru and settle down to raise a nice family. But enter the droid and Obi Wan. Owen was never keen on all that big city talk and the political turmoil happening so far away. So he was never keen on seeing Obi Wan go participate. And then his brother goes and gets himself into trouble...and drags part of it back home with him. Not only did Obi Wan manage to create a monster, he stole the monster's offspring and didn't have the means to take care of it himself. So Owen has every reason to resist his brother Ben and all that he represents, if not out of principle, then to save Luke from all that big city stuff that caused Ben so much trouble.

Look, it's all there in the movies (OT). How so many people could have missed something so obvious really rather frightens me. :sur: Are you sure that we're all looking at the same films? :confused:

Rocketboy
05-13-2005, 12:33 PM
Look, it's all there in the movies (OT). How so many people could have missed something so obvious really rather frightens me. :sur: Are you sure that we're all looking at the same films? :confused:Wow, I sure would like to see this version of the OT, because the ones I have never mention any of that. :rolleyes: Owen was NEVER referred to as Obi-Wan's brother. Sure, maybe in cut scenes and the novelization, but never in the movie.

stillakid
05-13-2005, 04:14 PM
Wow, I sure would like to see this version of the OT, because the ones I have never mention any of that. :rolleyes: Owen was NEVER referred to as Obi-Wan's brother. Sure, maybe in cut scenes and the novelization, but never in the movie.


:rolleyes: I won't even glorify that with a response...well, more than this anyway.

Rocketboy
05-13-2005, 06:14 PM
Good.
Even if I cared to, I won't be around to argue it anyway.

2-1B
05-14-2005, 04:46 AM
That term of intended derision confuses me.

Not a term meant as derision, I was just trying to be cute. :)
I was mistaken in thinking of an old thread "OT Purists vs. Prequel Defenders" but having just searched for that now, I see it is actually titled "Original Trilogy Worship vs. Prequel Defenders" as found here (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=14615&highlight=prequel+defenders)

I apologize. :) I think I crossed my wires because I was thinking of that old website whose name escapes me but they had a section for "Purists" as well as other factions. :crazed:


Look, it's all there in the movies (OT). How so many people could have missed something so obvious really rather frightens me. Are you sure that we're all looking at the same films?

I don't have a brother, just one sister, so I do not carry the life experience of watching my brother go off to life the Big Life like other people do . . . maybe you are just projecting your own life onto the movie and that's why we aren't seeing the same films ? lol lol lol

stillakid
05-14-2005, 02:44 PM
I don't have a brother, just one sister, so I do not carry the life experience of watching my brother go off to life the Big Life like other people do . . . maybe you are just projecting your own life onto the movie and that's why we aren't seeing the same films ? lol lol lol

An interesting philosophy question for sure. Is there a truly "generic" film sitting there, sort of like Tofu with no taste, just waiting for the viewers to add their own flavors to it? Or is it possible that, for example, someone like you without the "proper" life experience is actually incapable of seeing what Lucas put there? With that in mind, there may actually be additional layers of meaning that no one but Lucas, or Huyck, or Katz, or Kasdan have the capability of seeing because we are not them.

Hmm.... :sur:

Dark Helmet
05-14-2005, 05:47 PM
That term of intended derision confuses me. Are you suggesting that people who merely wished that the Prequels remained faithful to the original continuity are wrong about wanting that? :confused: If you're against that kind of logic, then there is no reason for any franchise to remain true to whatever came before (or after as the case may be). Heck, for that matter, why consider continuity at all within the same two hour story? :crazed: George could just change actors midway through, or the entire setting or perhaps the entire genre. What's stopping him since continuity is obviously not a priority for a lot of Star Wars fans? :sur:






Look, the obvious intention with the OT dialogue was that Obi Wan and Owen were brothers, probably on Tatooine. Obi Wan leaves the family farm to go become a Jedi Knight. Along the way, probably just after "graduation," Obi inadvertently runs into some hotshot freighter pilot named Anakin Skywalker. Obi "feels" how strongly the Force is with this guy and convinces him to train as a Jedi. Inevitably, at some point in the relationship, Obi and Anakin either run into Owen somewhere. Maybe on Tatooine, maybe in Anchorhead, maybe in Mos Eisley, maybe someplace else. I hadn't really thought about it before now, but the most logical time for them to meet would have been when Obi was being transported back home, to Mos Eisley, and the pilot was Anakin. They go get a drink, meet up with Owen who has come to the airport to pick up his brother and whalla, they get to know each other.

Not important really except that Owen being the "stay at home" family member was never really very excited about big city ways the way that his brother Obi Wan was. Every Earthbound family usually has a pairing like this. I know I do. I went off to the big city while one of my brothers stayed back home and looks on trying to figure out how anyone could enjoy that.

But anyway, using that kind of scenario, it all begins to make perfect sense. One might inquire about Vader's non-reaction to Tatooine at the beginning of ANH. I know I do, especially with the brand new Prequel continuity. Well, it still raises an eyebrow, but relative to the Prequel concept, my idea is relatively benign. But even then, we know that Vader suspects that maybe Obi Wan is still alive ("You should not have come back"), so it isn't unreasonable to assume that it crosses Vader's mind that maybe Obi Wan might be on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH. But since he doesn't even flinch about that place, then we should assume that Vader believes Ben to be hiding out somewhere else. Either that, or Vader assumes Ben to be entirely ineffective and not a threat at all at that point.



You roll your eyes a lot. :) But I believe that you're mistaken here. Owen's resistance is to save Luke from getting involved in all that mess. He's got a nice safe life here on the farm and if he just minds his chores, he'll eventually find a nice corn-fed woman like Beru and settle down to raise a nice family. But enter the droid and Obi Wan. Owen was never keen on all that big city talk and the political turmoil happening so far away. So he was never keen on seeing Obi Wan go participate. And then his brother goes and gets himself into trouble...and drags part of it back home with him. Not only did Obi Wan manage to create a monster, he stole the monster's offspring and didn't have the means to take care of it himself. So Owen has every reason to resist his brother Ben and all that he represents, if not out of principle, then to save Luke from all that big city stuff that caused Ben so much trouble.

Look, it's all there in the movies (OT). How so many people could have missed something so obvious really rather frightens me. :sur: Are you sure that we're all looking at the same films? :confused:

You mention continuity......one of the things I will be watching for at 12:01am est, is how GL has written in ROTS the fact that Obi has Anakin's lightsaber and that he tells Luke "your father wanted you to have this". Obviously during ROTS there has to be a moment of question in Anakin's mind during his turn to the dark side. You can definitely say that based on ANH that Vader is pretty successful in obliterating the Jedi with only Yoda and OBi left. A lot to watch in terms of continuity.....as a fan, I expect no less for GL and ROTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

darko666
05-15-2005, 01:09 AM
SPOILER WARNING!!!!


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i enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread.

but this is my opinion on where TPM went wrong:

mainly, i think after seeing AOTC and now seeing whats been available or leaked on the internet for ROTS, i think Darth Maul should have been the main villian for the 3 movies, or at least up till the third movie. heres my thoughts on what could have been a great villian. TPM has it flaws, but by introducing a new sith in TPM and killing him off right away was a huge mistake. what GL should have done, was to keep Maul alive and have him be in all 3 movies. he was the apprentice to Sidious and an all around jedi killing machine. he had so much hatred for the jedi that it was clear that he should have been a formible foe.

keep the death of Qui-Gon(it will make episode 3 make more sense). but don't have Obi-Wan kill Maul, but maybe wound him and force him to retreat. so now, Obi takes Anakin as an apprentice.

Episode II could now have had Maul as the reason of the creation of the Army of the Republic. instead of introducing Dooku, we have Maul being more knowledgable and stronger in the force and becoming a powerful sith. there is no need to keep introducing new villians, let alone another sith. we already have Sidious and Maul, that would have been enough.
now the battle of Geonosis begins and Obi and Anakin confront Maul in the hangar before leaving to see his master. Now Maul is used to fighting 2 jedi, and this is no contest. Maul takes out Anakin first and then confronts Obi for a rematch. But with Anakin out cold and Obi distracted with some anger towards Maul for killing Qui-Gon, Maul gets the upper hand. and no, Yoda does not fight Maul, but does come to help them. thus ends Episode II.

Episode III would be everything it's going to be, but with one diff. thing. instead of Anakin vs. Dooku, he faces Maul. now Anakin much stronger in the force and also inching towards the dark side, he takes on Maul. they have a fierce fight, exchanging equal blows against each other, but Anakin with so much hatred against Maul for killing his first mentor Qui-Gon, he just loses it and unleashes hell against Maul. Maul never has seen so much power and is utterly destroyed by Anakin. without mercy he kills Maul, and becomes what he was destined to be, Sidious's new apprentice. which is what Sidious wanted.

it just would have made more sense in the whole meaning behind the Sith. Two there are, a master and an apprentice. and thats what Sidious and Vader are. Dooku isn't really Sidious's apprentice, since he is already a master of the dark side, and wasn't tought by him. Dooku was actually another pawn under Sidious's plan. he didn't think Maul was going to be killed by a padawan. granted, it's to late to complain, but this just gives me closure on the death of Maul. he was a character that deserved more screen time and a better build up. Simply put... Maul > Dooku, thus making Episode I & II better. but what the hell do i know?

Dark Helmet
05-15-2005, 08:31 AM
Maybe this has been discussed months ago but I am unclear as to why Qio Gon's body did not disappear as Obi and Yoda did upon their death. The viking funeral pyre was nice and all but there is a flaw in the continuity of the master jedi's death. Someone out there in SW fan space knows...please advise the confused one.

2-1B
05-15-2005, 11:38 AM
It's not a continuity flaw . . . had Jinn disappeared, Anakin would have known about it and he wouldn't be surprised 30 years later when Kenobi vanishes. lol

JediTricks
05-15-2005, 08:02 PM
Please be careful of posting spoilers!

MaquisWarrior
05-16-2005, 01:34 AM
To me TPM was just another TALES of the JEDI tale with Obi-Wan in it! I enjoyed TPM as well as ATOC but as separate entities. GL failed in the fact that he left the "EPISODE...." concept in his films. THAT'S WHAT KILLED IT SINCE DAY ONE IN 1977! Had GL dropped the "Episode...." crap, SW would be bigger than the Beatles!! GL was going to start that "Episode..." garbage with the Indiana Jones but opted out (probably on Speliberg's insistance). This way each SW would stand on its own. And there would be more moives and properties! That's the way StarTrek is!! Imagine that ROTJ could have been Luke teaming up with JAR JAR or something like that similar to what Harmony Gold did with the Robotech series by tying everything up in the final episode of "Robotech: Next Generation" where the "heroes" that survived the last two installments of Robotech: Macross and Masters (based on Southern Cross, a different cartoon altogether with simialr toys and stroyline) got together took back the Earth from the Invid aliens. Lando, Han, the Jedi Librarian, Luke, Vader and etc. giving the Emperor what for once and for all! But then all EU stuff would have been uneccessary.

stillakid
05-16-2005, 01:54 AM
[Maul never has seen so much power and is utterly destroyed by Anakin. without mercy he kills Maul, and becomes what he was destined to be, Sidious's new apprentice. which is what Sidious wanted.



Damn, darko666, that's a fantastic concept! :) And it goes directly to what I see as probably the biggest failure of the Prequels so far, which is Anakin's actual "seduction." Thus far, his reason for becoming a bad guy has nothing to do with being "seduced" to the darkside or "taking the quick and easy path." Instead, he goes from being a squeaky clean gosh-golly annoyance to a moody bipolar teenager full of nonsensical angst as he lashes out at anyone and everyone over the most inane things. Save, of course, for his mother dying and his reaction to that. But every other tirade the boy has has nothing at all to do with the way Palpatine is seducing him or showing Anakin taking the quick and easy path. Isn't that what this story is supposed to be about? Isn't it supposed to be showing the audience a morality tale about how we should take the high road, no matter how difficult, in order to avoid losing our souls?


(POTENTIAL SPOILER)

Instead, Anakin is reportedly merely blackmailed into joining up with Palpatine...in other words, "kill for me and I'll teach you how to raise the dead" or some nonsense like that.

Your Maul scenario would have "fixed" a lot of this motivational problem that the story has and will continue to have. Good work! :)

2-1B
05-16-2005, 03:26 AM
Please be careful of posting spoilers!

Me? :confused:

Everything I posted about was based on Episodes 1 and 4. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was broaching E3 material.

JediTricks
05-16-2005, 05:04 AM
Yeah, you Caes, not the 5 other people posting in this thread. ;) No, not you.

Dark Helmet
05-16-2005, 06:36 PM
Yeah, you Caes, not the 5 other people posting in this thread. ;) No, not you.

I do believe too that it would have been good for Maul to stay alive at least through AOTC. It would have given the storyline more life...because there are always 2. When Maul dies that leaves Palpatine (1) and Anakin (0). Anakin at this point, I don't believe, has even come close to being a Sith apprentice!!