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View Full Version : Darth Vader was NOT using the Dark Side!!!!



stillakid
10-28-2008, 12:04 AM
An epiphany tonight on my way back home from work.

Darth Vader (OT Vader) did NOT use the Dark Side of the Force. Really! Think about it...

The first time we see Vader in ANH, he chokes Antilles to death by picking the guy up by the neck with his gloved hand. Vader is angry.. VERY angry, but does NOT use the Force to choke the guy.

EVERY OTHER TIME we see Vader in the OT, he is CALM and AT PEACE when he kills USING THE FORCE.

In ESB, Luke asks, "How will I know" when wondering how to know the good side from the bad. Yoda responds, "You will know! When you are calm, at peace."

Vader was not a Dark Side user! He only used the Force when he was calm and at peace!



This was a revelation! Couple that with the fact that Palpatine wasn't a Force user either until throwing blue lightning in ROTJ, it seems as though the first Jedi who uses the Dark Side at all is Luke in ESB! Luke is the bad guy!


OMG! Not sure how I never saw this before. :eek:

bigbarada
10-28-2008, 12:37 AM
Well, based on Ep3, Obi-Wan is a Sith Lord, so it wouldn't surprise me if Vader was really a good guy the whole time.

JediTricks
10-28-2008, 04:34 AM
Vader choked Motti via the Force, he used it for attack rather than only defense and knowledge, and he used it for selfish gains and service to his evil master. That's the Dark Side.

Darth Metalmute
10-28-2008, 08:34 AM
Vader also killed defenseless children out of fear of losing Padme.

I don't think he ever used fear or anger as a weapon after Padmes death.
I consider Vader to be a mindless slave, hoping that someone puts him out of his misery until he discovers Lukes alive. There is a great line in "The Force Unleashed" game where Proxy does his linkup with Vader. After Vader cuts transmission, Proxy says, "I hate being him". Starkiller replies, "I think he does to."

dr_evazan22
10-28-2008, 10:22 AM
Hey, he may be a cold blooded killer, but at least he's a light-side cold blooded killer. C'mon?!

Didn't use fear or anger as a weapon? What about Adm Motti being choked? What about all the other admirals / ship captains Vader makes examples of? How about Vader's reminder to Piett that he (Piett) was now an admiral?

How about Vader planting seeds of fear and doubt in Luke to turn him (ESB)?

What do you mean about Palpatine? Not seeing him use his powers until the end made him a more effective villian, highlighting his strentgh. He was so strong he didn't need to use his powers.

At what point in ESB does Luke use the DS? In the cave? Or RotJ?

stillakid
10-28-2008, 10:38 AM
Hey, he may be a cold blooded killer, but at least he's a light-side cold blooded killer. C'mon?!

Didn't use fear or anger as a weapon? What about Adm Motti being choked? What about all the other admirals / ship captains Vader makes examples of? How about Vader's reminder to Piett that he (Piett) was now an admiral?

How about Vader planting seeds of fear and doubt in Luke to turn him (ESB)?

What do you mean about Palpatine? Not seeing him use his powers until the end made him a more effective villian, highlighting his strentgh. He was so strong he didn't need to use his powers.

At what point in ESB does Luke use the DS? In the cave? Or RotJ?

Sure, he used fear and intimidation to rule, BUT he didn't use anger when he used the Force. Whenever he killed, he was calm and at peace EXCEPT for when he killed Antilles and he DID NOT use the Force in that instance.

So as brought up so far, Vader does USE and HAVE anger, BUT he doesn't use those feelings when he kills or uses the Force in other instances.

And to be clear, we're looking at the ESTABLISHED CONTINUITY of the Original Trilogy with an acknowledgment that the Prequels interrupt and alter that established continuity. If we are to forget the multiple issues that clearly illustrate a disconnect between the Anakin/Vader of the Prequels and Vader/Anakin of the OT, it still shows that the OT Vader does not use the Dark Side of the Force when he uses the Force. He is never angry or out of control when he Force-chokes or move things around or "senses" things/people. He is always calm and at peace. Those are the path the the Good Side of the Force.

It is LUKE who uses the Dark Side 100% of the time. Not that there is a problem with that because that's pretty much the point of his character arc... him being young and naive and only half-trained leads to him being very dangerous. Luke channels the Force in the Death Star Trench out of revenge for Obi Wan's and his Aunt and Uncle's deaths. Luke goes to Bespin to kill Vader out of revenge. Luke grabs his lightsaber in Palpatine's throne room out of anger. Again, this is all part of HIS character so it makes sense.

But Vader is the one who is supposed to be the one fully entrenched in the Dark Side, yet we never see him angry and out of control when using the Force.

dr_evazan22
10-28-2008, 11:10 AM
Hey buddy! Right now I think you're using the dark side to make your argument!

My thoughts on what you wrote are that you are adding your own feelings / interpretations to what was actually shown in the films. Luke taking revenge in the trench? I just don't see it. Because its a movie we can't actually know the characters thoughts, but the body language does not support this, IMO.

Luke goes to Bespin to kill Vader? I thought he went to save his friends?

While I'll agree that when Luke grabbed his ls on DS2 it was in anger and desperation, I'll also say it was, again, to save his friends. I'll also say it was only one step along a path, and that when Luke realized what path he was on he stopped.

I'd have to watch the movie or look up the script, but I seem to recall Yoda saying that "anger, fear and aggression" lead to the ds. Replaying Vader scenes in my mind (however warped it may be), I may not see a lot of anger or fear in Vader himself, I do see him trying to instill them in others. However, I do see aggression in Vader in most scenes.

Darth Metalmute
10-28-2008, 02:32 PM
Luke does use anger over being tricked by the empire when he grabs the lightsaber on the Death Star and does use his fear of protecting Leia from Vader when he chops off Vaders hand.
But I don't see it in those other situations.

I agree with you on Vader though.
I think he's just going through the motions. Everyone he knew is dead because of him. He's just doing his job because he has nothing better to do. People that lose their spouses and children usually go through it. They don't get angry or happy, they're not dead but they're not alive, they're just there, going through the motions.

pbarnard
10-28-2008, 04:19 PM
The problem is we're dealing with Vader 20 years after he did the major deeds. He became big E-Evil with the Padawan slaughter, never mind the rest of the Temple. He hates himself for being tricked/conned into believing Palpy would help him save Padme from his visions, and 20 years is a long time to let a lot of hate boil in. Every act he does than is just little-e evil.

The Force Unleashed scene with Proxy and Starkiller reminds me of my favorite Star Wars Tales issue, even though outside the continuity, Maul vs Vader. The Prophets of the Darkside resurrect or clone Maul to show Sidious that Vader isn't true Sith. They fight, and Vader just kicks Maul all over the place. Maul in disbelief goes on some tirade of the like, "What can you hate so much that makes you more powerful than me?" and Vader's reply is "Myself" and kills Maul for good.

Outside of Force choking half the Imperial fleet, in ESB we can infer he just tortures Han Solo just because he can and more to affect Leia and Chewie. By this point, that has to be little e- evil. Next comes Shadows of the Empire, basically killing anyone who stands in his way of finding Luke.

Because we're trying to infer state of mind, I'd suggest reading something like Dark Lord or Purge. Early on Vader was obsessed with killing/taking revenge on Obi-Wan. He sort of calmed down, got bitter and I'll agree, went through the motions until discovering Luke was alive.

bobafrett
10-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Maybe Vaders meditation chamber has something to do with it. I mean he probably doesn't get ESPN up on the death star, so instead he meditates, gets his helmet sweat cleeaned out, and has a nice microwave dinner.

El Chuxter
10-28-2008, 05:05 PM
You have a point about Vader not technically using the Dark Side. I wonder if a prequel-consistent explanation would be that his body was so damaged he can't do much of it?

You're wrong about Luke being the only one. Palpy is definitely going total Dark Side.

There's also a cut scene where Vader is frustrated with Palpatine and takes it out by choking some guards (and possibly Jerjerrod, IIRC).

pbarnard
10-28-2008, 06:22 PM
Maybe Vaders meditation chamber has something to do with it. I mean he probably doesn't get ESPN up on the death star, so instead he meditates, gets his helmet sweat cleeaned out, and has a nice microwave dinner.

mmmmmm. Salsibury Steak. But when the mashed potatoes are either still frozen, or worse, burnt, I bet he goes off on a murderous rampage and pretty much have to get a new galley staff for the Executor every few weeks.

Bel-Cam Jos
10-28-2008, 06:25 PM
You have a point about Vader not technically using the Dark Side. I wonder if a prequel-consistent explanation would be that his body was so damaged he can't do much of it?

You're wrong about Luke being the only one. Palpy is definitely going total Dark Side.

There's also a cut scene where Vader is frustrated with Palpatine and takes it out by choking some guards (and possibly Jerjerrod, IIRC).Jaff's avatar here at SSG shows Jerrjerrod grabbing his throat.

There was an old (meaning totally true and foolproof :p ) story that said Vader couldn't use Force Lightning because his hands were mechanical.

Personally, I think it was the Dark Side that "powered" Vader. He was stronger when he was angry... you wouldn't like him when he's angry. :rippedpurplepants: Without it, he was just another fallen Jedi-turned Sith being held together by a suit.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-28-2008, 07:49 PM
There was an old (meaning totally true and foolproof :p ) story that said Vader couldn't use Force Lightning because his hands were mechanical.
There's also the fact that the Force lightning killed him. ;)

Mad Slanted Powers
10-28-2008, 07:55 PM
I wouldn't say that Luke channeled the Dark Side in the trench out of revenge. He wasn't even using the Force until Obi-Wan spoke to him. At that point he "let go" as Obi-Wan told him. If he was focused on revenge, he would have gone after Vader's ship.

Vader sounded plenty angry when he killed Ozzel: "You have failed me for the last time, Admiral."

JediTricks
10-28-2008, 09:23 PM
Vader also killed defenseless children out of fear of losing Padme.That's prequels, but he ironically also killed defenseless Padme out of fear of losing Padme. :thumbsup:


I don't think he ever used fear or anger as a weapon after Padmes death.
I consider Vader to be a mindless slave, hoping that someone puts him out of his misery until he discovers Lukes alive. There is a great line in "The Force Unleashed" game where Proxy does his linkup with Vader. After Vader cuts transmission, Proxy says, "I hate being him". Starkiller replies, "I think he does to."Vader attacks Luke out of anger on Bespin, when Luke cuts his shoulder he goes mad and steps up his attack, ultimately cutting his son's hand clean off. Vader also fights Ben on the Death Star out of negative feelings (not fear or exactly rage, but an undercurrent of anger is there). And if he was a zombie, he wouldn't need to kill Ozzel or Needa... ok, maybe Ozzel. ;)

That was a good line in TFU. Some of that game really felt strong on the OT bridge.



Sure, he used fear and intimidation to rule, BUT he didn't use anger when he used the Force. Whenever he killed, he was calm and at peace EXCEPT for when he killed Antilles and he DID NOT use the Force in that instance.

So as brought up so far, Vader does USE and HAVE anger, BUT he doesn't use those feelings when he kills or uses the Force in other instances.That is a fine line to draw, and this claim that he was ever "calm and at peace" is shaky ground as well - Vader generally seems composed but never content. Besides, being calm and at peace is only a gateway to knowing the dark side from the good, it's not an attribute of either. Vader choking Motti, Ozzel, and Needa denotes the Dark Side; breaking Luke down in battle denotes the Dark Side. These are all negative acts, acts of attack, which is the Dark Side, not defense or knowledge.


Vader is evil, prequel retconning mitigation hasn't lessened that, just masked it in a cloak of soap opera emotions. Vader is the Emperor's remorseless attack dog in ANH, and a true force of evil power in ESB.



There was an old (meaning totally true and foolproof :p ) story that said Vader couldn't use Force Lightning because his hands were mechanical.

Personally, I think it was the Dark Side that "powered" Vader. He was stronger when he was angry... you wouldn't like him when he's angry. :rippedpurplepants: Without it, he was just another fallen Jedi-turned Sith being held together by a suit.Absolutely, good point. Vader is using the selfish Dark Side of the Force to keep himself alive, he's only looking out for himself and his master, the Emperor, and even then the further away from the Emperor he gets, the more he focuses on his own interests which are just as Dark Side - conquest, ruling the galaxy under his own vision. The Emperor is twisted and melted by his clinging to power via the Dark Side of the Force keeping him alive, and Vader is too.



There's also the fact that the Force lightning killed him. ;)It just broke his life support systems, the unclean air is what finally seemed to do him in. This is why you should unplug all the old people on any sort of life support systems at the retirement home, they are gateways to the Dark Side :p (kids, don't try this at home.)

pbarnard
10-29-2008, 09:44 AM
:p (kids, don't try this at home.)

Don't you mean at the home?

JediTricks
10-30-2008, 05:58 PM
Drat, I wish I had thought of that one! Very good.

Rocketboy
10-30-2008, 11:29 PM
Darth Vader was NOT using the Dark Side!!!!Yes he was.

stillakid
11-01-2008, 12:32 AM
Yes he was.


Nuh uh. :o

Mad Slanted Powers
11-01-2008, 01:01 AM
Nuh uh. :o

So then his line to Luke should have been, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. And neither do I. If I did, I wouldn't have to obey my master and I'd have overthrown him long ago."

Bel-Cam Jos
11-01-2008, 09:25 AM
Yes he was.Only a Sith uses absolutes.

And perhaps Vader was using the Ivory Soap version of the Dark Side: 99 44/100% pure. Remember, "there is good in him." (66% of one percent?)

stillakid
11-01-2008, 10:35 AM
So then his line to Luke should have been, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. And neither do I. If I did, I wouldn't have to obey my master and I'd have overthrown him long ago."

I never implied that Vader believed it or not. I simply looked at the times when Vader kills and does other Forcey things and he is always calm and at peace. When Luke asked Yoda how he would know the good side from the bad, Yoda answered, "You will knoooow. When you are calm, at peace..."

The only time Vader kills AND is angry, is with Antilles and we all know how that chap went.

Remember, the Force is just the Force. Like a gun, it can be used for good or bad. It just exists. It's a tool to be wielded as the user chooses. So while a user may be inherently "bad" or "good" in the things he or she does, what I'm saying is that Vader, despite being a "bad guy," does not use the "dark side" of the Force when he kills. In fact, the only time he really gets angry while in a fight is out on the gantry at the end of ESB. When he let himself get out of control is when he lost his advantage and took a blade in the shoulder, unlike earlier in the Carbonite Chamber when he was so calm and relaxed that he was almost asleep.

Mad Slanted Powers
11-01-2008, 12:34 PM
But as I already stated, he was angry when he killed Ozzel. Just because he wasn't a raging maniac doesn't mean he wasn't using the Dark Side. Besides, I don't imagine it would take much effort to Force strangle a guy. When he got angry and let loose on Luke in ESB is when the fight turned his way. Yeah, he took a hit, but he responded by chopping off Luke's hand.

LusiferSam
11-01-2008, 12:57 PM
A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.

Yoda

Stilla, you quote the little green dude but you miss his most important point. Vader very consistently uses the Force to attack. I really doubt Vader is defending him self from people like Motti, Needa, and Ozzel. And Vader gives Luke a pretty good Force enabled beating when he clearly has the upper hand.

And the other point you totally miss is Yoda says Luke will know the between the light and dark when he is calm. The ability to use the dark side and knowledge of the dark side are two totally differently things, so your wrong.

bobafrett
11-01-2008, 02:38 PM
I would like to point out that just because Vader doesn't look angry, how can you really tell? He has a mask on. This would block any expressions of anger. I get angry without having to show a lot of body language, but not having a mask on, you can see it in my face. When I really lose my temper as Vader does from time to time, then you can see it in my moves. Just my 2 cents on this.

2-1B
11-01-2008, 09:04 PM
Well, based on Ep3, Obi-Wan is a Sith Lord,

No, he's not.

It is 2 different things for Vader to say what he did about being with me or my enemy and for Obi-Wan to point out the absolutism of that.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-02-2008, 08:25 AM
No, he's not.

It is 2 different things for Vader to say what he did about being with me or my enemy and for Obi-Wan to point out the absolutism of that.I read your reply as your namesake, 2-1B, and I thought it odd. Here's how my brain functioned:

It is 2 different things for Vader to say what he did about being with me, 2-1B [and I thought back to his "birth" scene in ROTS, where he "killed" droids in anger], or my enemy [I paused to consider who a medical droid's enemy would be] and for Obi-Wan to point out the absolutism of that.

Sorry, as I obviously confused the statement. :o

[skulks back out of conversation...]

sith_killer_99
11-02-2008, 11:21 AM
Luke "How am I to know the good side from the bad?"
Yoda "You will know, when you are calm, at peace."

The calm and peace only helps you to distinguish between the two.

stillakid
11-02-2008, 11:42 AM
Luke "How am I to know the good side from the bad?"
Yoda "You will know, when you are calm, at peace."

The calm and peace only helps you to distinguish between the two.

Right, and Vader was calm and at peace 100% of the times he killed or used telekinesis when using the Force. Therefore, he was not using the Dark Side of the Force when he killed or moved things. He only once killed when angry and that was with his physical hand when killing Antilles. If Vader was truly a Dark Side Force user, why didn't he kill Antilles with the Force? And (to everyone) explain why he was calm and at peace in every other instance of killing or torturing someone in the rest of the OT saga?

Mad Slanted Powers
11-02-2008, 12:03 PM
As has been mentioned already, how do you know he was calm and at peace?

sith_killer_99
11-02-2008, 12:27 PM
Right, and Vader was calm and at peace 100% of the times he killed or used telekinesis when using the Force. Therefore, he was not using the Dark Side of the Force when he killed or moved things. He only once killed when angry and that was with his physical hand when killing Antilles. If Vader was truly a Dark Side Force user, why didn't he kill Antilles with the Force? And (to everyone) explain why he was calm and at peace in every other instance of killing or torturing someone in the rest of the OT saga?


The calm and peace only helps you to distinguish between the two.

He was able to distinguish between the two, but that doesn't mean he chose the light side.

It's like driving your car, you are paying attention (calm at peace) and you choose to drive on the right hand side of the road (the light side)...but that doesn't mean you can't willingly drive on the left side of the road (the dark side).

IMO, Yoda was cautioning Luke to remain calm (pay attention to the road) because if you don't, you could end up using the dark side (drifting to the left hand side of the road).

Remember, Yoda cautions Luke right after that, "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny".

This is what happens to Anakin, he was in turmoil over Padme' when Mace and Palpatine were fighting. He acted without being calm and at peace and he sided with the dark side of the force. Once that happened he became committed to the dark side.

The same thing happened to Luke in ROTJ, he acted out of emotion, he was in turmoil over Leia and he crossed the line. He pulled back at the last minute, but it changed him forever, he became tainted by the dark side...like many Jedi had. Many would argue that the dark side has dominated his destiny, it has certainly been explored in the novels.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-03-2008, 07:26 AM
...but that doesn't mean you can't willingly drive on the left side of the road (the dark side).Is this proof of the evil of the British Empire? :eek: :evil: :pleased:

sith_killer_99
11-03-2008, 11:57 AM
Is this proof of the evil of the British Empire?

Yes, British Empire = Galactic Empire, American Revolutionaries/13 Colonies = Rebel Alliance.lol;):thumbsup:

stillakid
11-03-2008, 12:09 PM
Yes, British Empire = Galactic Empire, American Revolutionaries/13 Colonies = Rebel Alliance.lol;):thumbsup:

Well, quite a few of the Imperials DID have a British accent!

sith_killer_99
11-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Like Tarkin...ello govn'r!lol

Jargo
11-12-2008, 07:22 PM
because it was cheaper to hire british actors rather than fly a whole american cast in for filming.

sith_killer_99
11-12-2008, 09:04 PM
because it was cheaper to hire british actors rather than fly a whole american cast in for filming.

So how come most of the "good guys" have American accents, except Obi-Wan (but he died)?

Plus, why did Darth Vader have a James Earl Jones accent?

Bel-Cam Jos
11-13-2008, 10:58 PM
So how come most of the "good guys" have American accents, except Obi-Wan (but he died)?

Plus, why did Darth Vader have a James Earl Jones accent?Uh, JEJ is an accent style? :confused: And I suppose dubbing in Norwegian would've been too costly? :p

stillakid
11-14-2008, 01:18 AM
Uh, JEJ is an accent style? :confused: And I suppose dubbing in Norwegian would've been too costly? :p

Anakin was from a desert planet, so Norwegian wouldn't have done. Lucas originally wanted to use Aloywicious Niedwicki from Phoenix, AZ to do the VO work, but he wasn't available. So Lucas chose GEJ instead, figuring the hot South was good enough.