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View Full Version : Padme Should Not Have Lost The Will To Live (and just died)



Tycho
12-02-2008, 04:38 PM
I haven't watched a SW movie in a while, and I'm more inclined to watch the OT at the moment.

But Padme losing the will to live just bugs me.

Weren't Luke and Leia two reasons to live? Someone had to watch over her children. She didn't ask Obi-Wan or Bail Organa to do it. Her last words were of hope for Anakin returning from the Dark Side.

If she feared him choking her again, couldn't she have just sent him a text message or an e-mail?

I think if Anakin had Force-thrown her against something that impaled Padme, traumatic as that might be (this is a movie that graphically shows someone burning alive anyway though), Padme could have died and the twins still be saved.

"From a certain point of view (barely)," Leia's dialogue in ROTJ is still applicable. From a certain point of view.

"Just images really..." (holograms Bail Organa showed her?)
"She died when I was very young." (Extremely true - she died just after Leia was born)

"She was very beautiful, kind, but sad." (again stuff Leia learned off holo-recordings?)

Most of Padme's life's recordings might be of her in the Galactic Senate, and her service was a struggle - to defeat the Military Creation Act (of which her efforts lost) and then to administrate over The Clone Wars (which Padme was horrified by, starting from the point at which she was going to be executed by Nexu in front of a live audience in the Geonosian Arena). And though she was married, Anakin was kept away on Jedi missions almost all of the time. True, Padme didn't have much to be happy about.

El Chuxter
12-02-2008, 04:41 PM
That was the pinnacle of the lazy writing of ROTS. She could've at least have had her throat smashed by Vader to the point where she couldn't live long. Gruesome, yes, but far more realistic than giving up.

Rocketboy
12-02-2008, 04:50 PM
I thought something as simple as giving Padme some sort of incurable disease and having her live long enough to give birth before croaking would have been a better way to go with her death.

jediguy
12-02-2008, 05:03 PM
Palpatine killed her to help keep Vader in line

Palpatine and Anakin were manipulating her from the start
Senator Palpatine first suggested to Queen Amidala that she should call for a vote of no confidence in the leadership of Chancellor Valorum
remember how intently he was staring at the back of her head when she made the call in the senate?
Anakin always loved her, and desperately wanted her to love him back
right before the execution at Geonosis, she told Anakin everything he wanted to hear
Anakin unknowingly used the force on her to manipulate her feelings, because he wanted her to love him the way he loved her
granted, he didn't do it on purpose, but that she said it is an effective demonstration of his power
he was stronger than he knew

I firmly believe that Palpatine killed Padme so he could have Vader all to himself

Devo
12-02-2008, 07:36 PM
Palpatine killed her to help keep Vader in line

Palpatine and Anakin were manipulating her from the start
Senator Palpatine first suggested to Queen Amidala that she should call for a vote of no confidence in the leadership of Chancellor Valorum
remember how intently he was staring at the back of her head when she made the call in the senate?
Anakin always loved her, and desperately wanted her to love him back
right before the execution at Geonosis, she told Anakin everything he wanted to hear
Anakin unknowingly used the force on her to manipulate her feelings, because he wanted her to love him the way he loved her
granted, he didn't do it on purpose, but that she said it is an effective demonstration of his power
he was stronger than he knew

I firmly believe that Palpatine killed Padme so he could have Vader all to himself


...I think, if you're serious, you're wrong...I really think you're giving Lucas far far
too much credit and reading into it stuff that simply wasn't there and wasn't meant to be implied.

If dark jedi's had the power your idea would require them to have then they could just about kill anyone they wanted at any time they wanted - and we wouldn't have much of a saga. And if Padme could be influenced in the way you suggest then she must indeed have a weak mind - which I'm sure isn't something Lucas intended to put across about her character.

So yep, it was just a stupid piece of writing. And in a sense, yes I guess it does, unintentionally, make Padme come across as weakminded just needlessly giving up like that. So much for her maternal nature. Crappy mother...yeah very 'kind'.

jediguy
12-02-2008, 07:55 PM
didn't Vader kill Admiral Ozzel from another ship? some of the Darkside force users had the power, but not all of them

the reason they don't kill off everybody is because then there wouldn't be anyone left to do the work or boss around

I stand by my opinion as you are entitled to yours

bigbarada
12-02-2008, 10:13 PM
I agree that it was an incredibly lazy piece of writing. The notion that a woman, who has just given birth to two children, would have no will to live just makes her seem incredibly selfish and self-centered. Either that or it was an extremely rapid onset of post-partem depression.:stupid:

The idea that it was Palpatine killing Padme behind the scene is plausible, but I wouldn't give Lucas that much credit because that would require subtlety on his part. The Prequels have demonstrated that Lucas's writing has as much subtlety as a surgeon trying to remove a gall bladder with a surface-to-air missile.

If it was up to me, Anakin would have killed Padme on the landing platform and it would only be through the incredibly advanced Star Wars medicine that the babies would have survived.

Tycho
12-02-2008, 10:19 PM
If it was up to me, Anakin would have killed Padme on the landing platform and it would only be through the incredibly advanced Star Wars medicine that the babies would have survived.

Correct. That is how I would have wanted it also. However, Padme could have been fatally impaled, but not dead immediately, so the "naming scene" where she calls out Luke and Leia's names could have still occurred.

For the most part I liked ROTS and it's my favorite prequel, but this thread is about something very wrong with the movie.

Devo
12-02-2008, 10:24 PM
If it was up to me Padme would have lived to nurse Leia for at least some time therefore being true to Leia's dialogue in ROTJ. She would have died off-screen between Episodes III and IV. Instead the one thing he could have left off-screen, to be assumed by the audience, he put up on screen - contradicting dialogue in the OT while he was at it. Much better that stuff like, I dunno, a plausible student/mentor/brother relationship between the two most important characters in the trilogy be left off screen for the most part - ''yeah lets just imply that rather than actually show it. And the clone wars for that matter that everyone assumed these films would be about - just for the sake of defying expectation lets actually not depict them - the beginning and the end will do - besides I need an excuse for the totally animated spin-off I really wish these films were''.

bobafrett
12-02-2008, 10:36 PM
They sould have had at least one breast feeding scene with the children each suckling each breast, and that act might have killed her off.

Tycho
12-02-2008, 10:37 PM
Use the Force, Luke.

stillakid
12-03-2008, 12:20 AM
But Padme losing the will to live just bugs me.


This is just bothering you now?

Tycho
12-03-2008, 12:44 AM
This is just bothering you now?

No. It always did (since 2005) but there is much more to like than dislike about ROTS in general, so I can watch it to be entertained and listen to John Williams' great music. But I would have cleaned this plot point up by taking it 90 degrees or more away from what Lucas did.

I also would have allowed for 2 or 3 more lines of dialogue to explain why Anakin would kill Jedi younglings. It does make sense in light of the situation, but not with ONLY what the movie explains to its audience.

Sifo Dyas also might have needed some explaination.

Anakin might have had some greater reaction upon learning that Palpatine also controlled the Separatists and was responsible for all the tragedies of the Clone Wars.

These are things that could have been achieved by adding only SECONDS to the movie.

Also, Kenobi, Organa, and Yoda might have had some passing line that dismissed bringing Luke or Leia to the Naberries on Naboo.

I knew these things troubled me the very first time I saw the movie. However, then and now, it still does not prevent me from enjoying it. But I recognize that it is not perfect and exactly the way I wanted it.

Droid
12-03-2008, 01:30 PM
If she believed there was still good in Anakin, why did she lose the will to live?

If they had at least had her hold Leia and not Luke, MAYBE you could justify Leia's dialogue in ROTJ, but no not really. Still a stretch.

Tycho
12-03-2008, 02:59 PM
I thought Padme did hold Leia and Obi-Wan held Luke. I'll have to watch ROTS again, but I'm pretty sure that's what went down. Luke was born first and Obi-Wan held him while Padme gave birth to Leia.

El Chuxter
12-03-2008, 03:07 PM
Padme should've gone into hiding on Alderaan as a servant to Breha and her adopted child. No one would have even bothered to look for her. Palpatine assumed she was dead without seeing any evidence other than a possible recording of her falling over after Anakin choked her. I dunno about you, but I saw video of JFK being shot, and I'm pretty certain he's dead and wouldn't suspect someone who resembles him to actually be him; I would just think it to be a coincidence.

Tycho
12-03-2008, 03:20 PM
They had Padme's body for her funeral - which they made to look pregnant.

I think that was conclusive evidence that she was dead.

El Chuxter
12-03-2008, 03:36 PM
If she survived, though, there would not have been a body. Which would've made sense. Palpatine would've known that C-3PO took Padme's seemingly lifeless body onto a ship that Obi-Wan then flew away. It actually doesn't make much sense that Obi-Wan would stop off to drop off Padme for a ceremonial burial a few days after her death ON PALPATINE'S HOME PLANET.

Tenric78
12-03-2008, 03:52 PM
Losing the will to live is so 18th century. She couldn't bear to live even though she had two kids that would be stranded and in incredible danger? Padme=worst character ever.

This has always bothered me.

Devo
12-03-2008, 04:43 PM
If she believed there was still good in Anakin, why did she lose the will to live?


She couldn't bear to live even though she had two kids that would be stranded and in incredible danger? Padme=worst character ever.

The above are precisely why George Lucas is an incompetent writer and why I find it so baffling that he insisted on writing these films despite the fact he seems to be aware of his own writing inadequacy.

Tycho
12-03-2008, 10:24 PM
What would have been so hard to come up with Anakin directly killing her?

Or even Padme committing suicide? (though that would seem out-of-character for her, too).

What about a scene that's more introspective for her - where she blames herself for Palpatine's rise and the fall of the Republic? Added to her personal family tragedy, maybe that could have shown her life "pushing her too far to bare any more."

To me, this is the worst error of the prequel trilogy.

Other things ("Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." and midichlorians) are explainable, though not what everyone wanted. However, I didn't mind. Qui-Gon Jinn was a cool character and I liked seeing Anakin at age 9 and learning who his mother was.

JarJar could have been made more relevant if he was absolutely necessary. At least he did something in AOTC, but he might have not been in ROTS altogether.

El Chuxter
12-04-2008, 12:02 AM
I honestly think Jar Jar should have been a hero or a martyr. And I think that was George's initial plan. He should've either have been the one who saved the twins, or he should've been the guy Anakin killed in front of Obi-Wan to convince Obi-Wan that Anakin was irredeemable at that point.

bigbarada
12-04-2008, 12:15 AM
I think the problem is that Lucas wasted two films just playing around and then realized that he still had 90% of the "Anakin to Vader" storyline to tell and only one movie left to tell it in. So we ended up with everything feeling rushed and poorly thought out. Not only the Padme-death thing, but Anakin's turn to the Dark Side was too instantaneous. Not to mention that we never got a proper onscreen explanation as to who Sifo-Dyas was.

Tycho
12-04-2008, 02:12 AM
Palpatine orchestrates sympathy vote for Naboo, making himself Supreme Chancellor - TPM

++++++++

Qui-Gon finds Anakin, helps him earn freedom from slavery - TPM

- - - -

Anakin falls for Padme - a childhood crush he never overcomes due to their adventure - TPM

*****

Palpatine engineers a Galactic Civil War with new apprentice, Dooku leading Separatists - AOTC

Jedi wind up acting as generals to a Clone Army (secretly trained to kill them) - AOTC

####

Anakin is brought together with Padme again and winds up marrying her - AOTC

Palpatine uses Jedi attempt to unseat him from power to declare a rebellion and eliminate the Jedi - ROTS

Palpatine decrees there to be a new Galactic Empire - ROTS

Tempted by forbidden knowledge that could save Padme, Anakin betrays Mace Windu, and then is lured into allying himself with the Sith Lord - ROTS

@@@@

Padme is killed, as are all the Jedi, and Anakin (Darth Vader) is left with only his master - ROTS

++++ - it was left up to a tie-in novel (Cloak of Deception) to illustrate how Palpatine / Darth Sidious manipulated the Trade Federation into serving his purposes and why the Republic wanted to levy taxes on trade routes to fund a navy to protect commerce from pirates. (But the Sith had secretly hired the pirates)

- - - - "When I first met your father, he was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi." - Nothing in TPM contradicts this. Qui-Gon met Anakin before Obi-Wan did (by about a day's length of time) but Obi-Wan insisted to Yoda that he fulfill Qui-Gon's dying wish and take responsibility for Anakin.

**** - some different dialogue in AOTC during the scene when Padme goes to sleep and Anakin and Obi-Wan are discussing her might clarify things better.


#### - So who was Sifo Dyas and what set him about creating a Clone Army? Did Darth Maul or Darth Tyranus do this and pose as Sifo Dyas to the Kaminoans (having first killed the real Sifo Dyas?) ? Or was Sifo Dyas another Sith apprentice that didn't work out? Jango Fett said he was recruited by a man named Tyranus. Comic history points out that Jango Fett's Mandalorian unit engaged and lost to Dooku's Jedi some time in the past, prior to even TPM or its prequel "Cloak of Deception." Did Jango ever know Dooku commanded those Jedi. Did Jango recognize him? I need to re-read the comic (Jango Fett: Open Season) but it was nevertheless not revealed by any movie.

@@@@ Was Palpatine causing Anakin's nightmares? Lucas could have shown this if that was to be the case. Ventress brought Palpatine knowledge of their marriage, but it was offscreen. Why would Anakin help kill all the Jedi, instead of use his rank with them to eliminate Palpatine? OK - I know he wanted Sith secrets to keep Padme from dying and the Jedi wouldn't allow him that. It works, but needed more direct exposition - especially reasons for him to kill the Younglings.

Droid
12-04-2008, 09:09 AM
Or the entire prequel storyline could have been thrown out and we could have been given the story described in the original trilogy instead. Like, oh I don't know, having Owen be an actual character. Or having shown Obi-wan and Anakin as FRIENDS.

El Chuxter
12-04-2008, 09:29 AM
BigB, you nailed it right on the head. There was too much riding on ROTS, and Lucas wasn't able to pull it out of the toilet.

My other major problem (aside from Padme's death) with ROTS is the scene dealing directly with Anakin's fall:

Palpatine is subtly manipulating Anakin based on his knowledge of both Anakin's marriage and his slaughter of the Tusken tribe.
Anakin learns that Padme is pregnant. In addition to this possibly exposing their marriage, he starts having nightmares about her dying in childbirth. (Caused by Palpatine? Real premonitions of what would happen? Or just too much juri juice?)
Palpatine really ramps up the political manipulation, playing Anakin's ambition against the Jedi Council, and sending Obi-Wan where he can't be a positive counterbalance.
Palpatine plays his trump card, revealing his identity to Anakin. Anakin tells Mace, and Mace's final words to him before leaving are an indication of his trust.
Lucas forgets how to create drama by using action, and Palpatine kills three of the supposed mightiest Jedi in a matter of seconds. (Really. Would it be too much to ask that at least one of them isn't blindsided? Or to see two Jedi Masters take on a Sith Lord for at least a minute?) He duels with Mace (is he toying with him knowing that Anakin is on the way, or is Mace really that much better than the other three combined?) as Anakin wrestles with his demons and goes to either warn Palpatine or help Mace (this could've been more clear).
And here's where it really starts getting into shoddy writing.
Anakin arrives to see Mace standing over Palpatine. He argues that Palpatine must be kept alive to stand trial. Mace states that he's too powerful, and that he controls the Senate and the courts. Anakin's apparently had a change of heart since being manipulated by Palpatine to kill Dooku. Never mind that Palpatine has killed three Jedi in the short time it took Anakin to get there, and the novelization explicitly states he sees all their bodies, so he's clearly tougher than he's letting on.
Palpatine pretends to be weak. Anakin is apparently a moron after seeing all the evidence to the contrary. Palpatine manipulates Anakin into cutting off Mace's arm--and it really seems like Anakin is trying to disarm Mace to preserve a life, not kill him.
Palpatine french fries Mace Windu, proving he was BS'ing before. And, if that's not enough, he actually yells "Absolute power!" while doing it.
And here, it becomes downright ludicrous.
Anakin clearly regrets what he's done. There is no question of that.
After clearly misrepresenting himself as weak, Palpatine explicitly tells Anakin that he cannot save Padme.
Anakin, at this point, does not rely on the mercy of the Jedi. He should know both Yoda and Obi-Wan well enough to know that, though he will unquestionably be kicked out of the Order, they will recognize he was being conned by a Sith Lord and will be relatively lenient. He'd be able to live the peaceful life with Padme that he really wants.
Instead, Anakin buys Palpatine's load of crap hook, line, and sinker, and immediately sets off to kill a bunch of kids. Let's be honest: even Hitler or Stalin didn't start off by slaughtering babies. That's a level of irredeemable evil you typically have to work up to. You certainly don't do it based on what sounds just like every other lie this proven liar has handed you.
As he's portrayed, Anakin's love for Padme should logically overpower his lust for more power. But it doesn't. Instead, we get a crappy rehash of the reveal from ESB, and he chokes her.

Honestly, if this were anyone but George Lucas, no one would be defending this garbage.

bigbarada
12-04-2008, 12:14 PM
Honestly, if this were anyone but George Lucas, no one would be defending this garbage.

Exactly!

For over 5 years, I had been defending Lucas and the prequels because I really thought he was going to somehow tie everything together in Ep3. It only took one viewing of Ep3 for the wool to be pulled out from in front of my eyes and see that Lucas was full of crap and really didn't have any of this planned out beforehand at all.

If it had been up to me, Anakin would have turned to the Dark Side and become Darth Vader at the end of Ep2. The first half of Ep3 would focus on Obi-Wan hunting down his former padawan, as Anakin commits one atrocity after another (each progressively worse than the one before), until their final showdown in the second act of Ep3. This would have given the audience plenty of time to watch Anakin's downfall progress in a logical manner. Also Lucas wouldn't have had to cram the fate of Padme into the last few minutes of the film, he would have had an entire movie to develop what happened to her.

All of the relevant events from Ep1 and Ep2 could have been pushed into Ep1 with plenty of time for "playing around."

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-04-2008, 06:04 PM
Anakin arrives to see Mace standing over Palpatine. He argues that Palpatine must be kept alive to stand trial. Mace states that he's too powerful, and that he controls the Senate and the courts. Anakin's apparently had a change of heart since being manipulated by Palpatine to kill Dooku. Never mind that Palpatine has killed three Jedi in the short time it took Anakin to get there, and the novelization explicitly states he sees all their bodies, so he's clearly tougher than he's letting on.
Palpatine pretends to be weak. Anakin is apparently a moron after seeing all the evidence to the contrary. Palpatine manipulates Anakin into cutting off Mace's arm--and it really seems like Anakin is trying to disarm Mace to preserve a life, not kill him.
You're not including the part where Anakin says "I need him!" Clearly Anakin wants Palpatine's help to save Padmé, even if it's a false hope.
The novel has absolutely no bearing on the finished film. The Jedi were killed in a different part of Palpatine's office that Anakin likely didn't see. But Palpatine told Anakin that the Jedi were taking over and trying to kill him, and when there's a guy standing over anyone with a sword at their neck, what would it look like to you? Aside from the lightning, which Anakin might have seen as self-defense on Palpatine's part, there were no displays of power that he had seen. He didn't see the bodies in the film and he didn't see Palpatine fighting Mace. What he did see was Palpatine try to "defend himself" while Mace was deflecting the bolts and causing damage to Palpatine's face. I contend that he actually did see Palpatine as a weak man defending himself.


After clearly misrepresenting himself as weak, Palpatine explicitly tells Anakin that he cannot save Padme.
No, he doesn't. And he never explicitly says he can save Padmé, either:


Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.
Which he later follows up with:

To cheat death is a power only one has achieved but I know if we work together we can discover the secret.
You see the last line as him outright telling Anakin that he was lying. To Anakin, it was more like the only hope he had. What were the Jedi telling him? They told him to let go of all attachments that he was afraid to lose. It wasn't just his use of the dark side that Anakin was worried about, it was also his marriage, both of which were huge no-nos to the Jedi. Of course he wanted a life with Padmé, but as Palpatine, he also wanted a "life of significance," and as he said in AOTC, he wanted to be the most powerful Jedi ever. Even if they kicked him out, he would have gone to the dark side, I think.

And it's not just that one scene or act that pushed him over the edge; you have to take into account the entirety of the film up to that point as well as much of AOTC. He didn't trust the Jedi after being told to spy on Palpatine and their not making him a Master, as well as the whole inability to help him whatsoever with Padmé, which Palpatine gave him at least a small hope of doing. Add to that the fact that he was looking for more power, distrustful of the Republic, etc. You have to take the whole thing into account.

Tenric78
12-04-2008, 06:15 PM
I honestly think Jar Jar should have been a hero or a martyr. And I think that was George's initial plan. He should've either have been the one who saved the twins, or he should've been the guy Anakin killed in front of Obi-Wan to convince Obi-Wan that Anakin was irredeemable at that point.

Wow, this would have been totally perfect if kids weren't watching these films. I could only imagine how horrific this would be for a kid who liked Jar Jar.

It would have gotten standing ovations from adult fans though.

Tycho
12-04-2008, 08:27 PM
The thing is that with TPM, Lucas tried to indoctrinate a new group of 5 year olds or so. They would be 8 years old when watching AOTC, and 11 with ROTS (which was PG-13, but we know parents have to take 11-13 year olds anyway, as they don't usually have money and cannot drive).

I think an 11 year old or 13 year old (for sure) could take JarJar being sliced into pieces by a lightsaber - or having the Empire test the Death Star super-laser on him - the fate for JarJar that I always wanted. :D

(Thus JarJar IS in all the OT films - little microscopic bits and pieces of him are floating past the Millennium Falcon in every scene.)

Anyway, with a PG-13 rating, ROTS would probably not be the first SW movie to show any 5 year old new to the scene.

However, think of how cool even these senseless plots are with "wizard special effects" in them for the 5-13 year old crowd.

We 30 year olds wanted SW movies for US, but we forget that we fell in love with Star Wars when we were 5-13 years old.

Try as we might, we are just not going to be 13 years old (or younger) ever again.

And try as he might, Lucas may not be able to write a movie that makes complete sense to anyone over 13 years old anyway. But he might never have been aiming to. SW makes him money and novelists that cater to the older fans even have to pay Lucas tribute for explaining how "the taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute."

I agree with most of all the analysis of the prequels' flaws that have been posted here, yet I also can see how many of you don't realize you are no longer 13 years old any more. I can sympathize. When I think about it - I think my aging sucks, too!:(

Mad Slanted Powers
12-04-2008, 08:34 PM
You also have to take into account that Palpatine has been a mentor for ten years. We see him stroking Anakin's ego in AOTC by telling him he'll be more powerful than Yoda. He also encourages Anakin's distrust of the Jedi.

I think that by having Mace pretty much say the same thing Palpatine said - "He's too dangerous to be left alive" - illustrates to Anakin that the Jedi are no better than the Sith, just as Palpatine had told him.

JediTricks
12-05-2008, 04:24 AM
Padme is largely a dishrag of a character. They play her up as a heroine of the prequels, but aside from an action scene in TPM and another in AOTC, she's mainly left to be pushed and pulled around from place to place and decision to decision. She's a passive character much of the time, more a macguffin than a real character, someone to be rescued or pined over but not willful or strong, either a victim of bad choices or circumstances meant to seem like not. She talks tough in TPM and AOTC, but we never see her doing anything to match that. Her death at the hands of a broken heart was the stupidest thing imaginable - she has children to take care of, a rebellion to help run (pre-TFU anyway), and NO reason to die.

Personally, I thought she should have been in hiding as a servant to the house of Organa, and her life should have been announced as cut short by a slow-acting toxin from the Nexu scratch or something to that effect. Then again, we don't know where Jar Jar ends up in the OT, so why not have Padme die on Alderaan when the Death Star shoots it?

bigbarada
12-05-2008, 10:47 AM
Taking all of the events from Naboo and placing them on Alderaan for the Prequels would have solved a lot of problems when it came to tying up PT plotlines.

Darth Metalmute
12-05-2008, 02:19 PM
I think Portman wanted out of Episode 3 but had to fullfill her contract obligation. So to satisfy this, Lucas let her have a bit part in Revenge. It's the only thing I can think of after reading the book and watching the movie that leads me to believe why someone that is so important to Anakin becoming Vader has little screen time. The conversations between her and Anakin in the movie really don't make since unless you read the book. She shows signs of strength in the first two movies and then transforms into a tag along nag in the third. As much as I enjoy Revenge, the scenes between Padme and Anakin are instant skips (except for the last scene and even that one is better in the book).

JediTricks
12-05-2008, 02:48 PM
She turned into a total dishrag back in Ep 2 the minute she admitted her love for the creepy stalker boy she had gotten to know for all of a week's worth of time spread out across 10 years. Lucas wrote her too much as a story device and not enough as a character, I think the moment where we're asked to take their forbidden love seriously in Ep 2 is the defining moment of why Padme doesn't work as a SW character - she doesn't need to show a reason why she likes this guy, doesn't need to learn to like this guy, just put them in a room together, have her giggle and go "duh", and then they're in love. Gee, I wonder why Lucas doesn't have a better love life. :p

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-05-2008, 03:28 PM
I think Portman wanted out of Episode 3 but had to fullfill her contract obligation. So to satisfy this, Lucas let her have a bit part in Revenge. It's the only thing I can think of after reading the book and watching the movie that leads me to believe why someone that is so important to Anakin becoming Vader has little screen time. The conversations between her and Anakin in the movie really don't make since unless you read the book. She shows signs of strength in the first two movies and then transforms into a tag along nag in the third. As much as I enjoy Revenge, the scenes between Padme and Anakin are instant skips (except for the last scene and even that one is better in the book).
I think this might have worked better if they kept in the subplot about her and the other senators doing the petition of two thousand. I mean, she filmed it, and it wasn't supposed to be a "bit part" until they edited the movie and cut that stuff out.


Gee, I wonder why Lucas doesn't have a better love life. :p
He's been dating Mellody Hobson for a while now, so that's something, anyway.

JediTricks
12-05-2008, 03:48 PM
Padme's scene starting the rebellion even comes off passively for her though.

Droid
12-05-2008, 04:39 PM
How about starting Episode I with Anakin being a farmer on Tatooine, working for his older brother Owen (I know it contradicts the ROTJ novel; I don't care.) Anakin is married. New Jedi Obi-wan comes to Tatooine on a lousy assignment recruiting for soldiers to fight in the Clone Wars, an ongoing dispute with an outside force that is destroying the otherwise civilized Republic. Anakin, hungry for action and adventure, leaves Tatooine and his wife over his brother's strong objection. He and Obi-wan become fast friends. Obi-wan is impressed with Anakin's pilot abilities and trains him as a Jedi, not in the strict teacher-mentor role of the Jedi, but more like a friend teaching another friend tricks. Unfortunately, Anakin is undisciplined and displays a tendency for anger which alarms him. Obi-wan tells his teacher Yoda who is not pleased with Obi-wan but decides that keeping an eye on the Force User in the fold is better than outside so he agrees to make him a Jedi Knight given his talent and despite his marriage. Once a full Knight, Anakin catches the eye of Palpatine who corrupts him and shows him the power and quick and easy path are superior to the discipline and structure of the Jedi. At some point Anakin goes home and sees his wife, impregnating her. He becomes evil and becomes Darth Vader. She is hidden to protect her. The children are born on Dagobah (something familiar about this place). Luke is rushed off to hide on Tatooine (which isn't a a great hiding place, but that flaw lies in the OT). Leia is taken to Alderaan and the mother goes with her. The Jedi don't want the mother to be with Leia, but there won't be any Jedi on Alderaan and the Organas allow her to pose as nanny. The Emperor, believing Anakin's children could be a threat to him, and knowing that Jedi don't typcially get married like Anakin, orders Anakin to track down his wife. He tracks her down, either knowing she had been pregnant (but not with twins) or finding out from her that she was pregnant. She tells him the baby has been hidden and he'll never find it. He kills her, believing that the Organas were hiding her, but not having any idea Leia was on Alderaan.

She should have been a heroine in the last chapter, but irrelevant until then.

The movie should have been more about Anakin's relationship with Owen, then his relationship with Obi-wan, and finally his relationship with Palpatine. He left Owen for Ob-wan and left Obi-wan for Palpatine.

Devo
12-05-2008, 05:48 PM
Thats it. (The rebels are there!)

Excellent post Droid, and thank you for putting together in one place a correct sequence of story points as described by Obi-wan and Yoda in the Original trilogy...thats what the prequels would have done well to follow rather than (poorly) rewriting established lore. And fair play on the acknowledgment that hiding Luke on tatooine with the Lars' was a pretty stupid idea and one area where the OT faltered. Even if Vader didn't know he had a child, if there was any chance he could find out he did - thats surely one of the first places he'd look.

I'm sorry but..Lucas you MORON!

Mad Slanted Powers
12-05-2008, 06:35 PM
I don't know. I don't think that really works very well either. I still think TPM was a good starting point. Then they could have just tweaked a few things in the next two movies. I think what would have worked is for Anakin to leave the Jedi order at some point because of his marriage, and then Obi-Wan would come to him for help, asking him to go on one more idealistic crusade to save the Republic and stop the Sith. That's where Owen would argue that he should stay there and not get involved.

Devo
12-05-2008, 09:38 PM
I think we can all agree on these things:

The Dagobah thing - because of the PT lukes line in ESB - 'theres something familiar about this place' - now has no significance whatsoever - its just random and needless. Baby Luke, Padme, Obi-wan, Anakin - none of these ever set foot on Dagobah - no prior description of Dagobah is ever given to Luke, no similar tatooine environment Luke may have experienced is ever seen or referanced in either trilogy - so the line in ESB has no relevance to anything thanks to Lucas' PT. For years we'd been thinking otherwise.

The uncle Owen situation, which seemed an altogether serious thing in the pre-2002 perception of the OT, is also reduced to nothing because of the prequels. This requires more than one paragraph so....

We had heard of Owen's dismissive attitude about Obi-wan - 'that wizards just a crazy old man'. We were first made to wonder about Luke's father by Owen when he expressed concern at Luke's similarity to him - 'thats what I'm afraid of' - it seemed Owen knew something, and it was ominous. We later heard from Obi-wan that Owen didn't want Anakin being involved in the clone wars, that he should have 'stayed here' on tatooine - it was reasonable for us to assume therefore that they knew eachother, at least enough for Owen to give a crap whether Anakin got involved in the wars or not - possibly they were even blood related though this need not necessarily be the case.

Owen apparently didn't agree with anakins 'ideals' - again suggesting that the two had at least had conversations pertaining to their respective desires in life and perhaps about the galactic situation. And then there was that bit where old Ben tells Luke that his dad wanted him to have his old lightsabre but Owen wouldn't allow it - 'he figured you'd follow me on some damned fool idealistic crusade like your father did'. Alright so it seems to me that at least 2 of these 3 guys were involved in this conversation - perhaps all 3 - or perhaps one of them had to hear it second-hand. We know Anakin was involved for sure. Anyway in this conversation Anakin, either knowing that he was expecting a child at the time, or thinking hypothetically about the future must have said something to the effect of 'I want this kept by for my son/daughter when he/she is ready'. Owen said 'absolutely no way' either to Anakin himself or to Obi-wan whenever the latter made it known to Owen that he wished to carry out Anakin's instructions. Whatever way you look at it this suggests a decent amount of background between these 3 guys. Owen must be a guy very much in the mix to have the opinions he appears to have and to feel in a position to dictate whether Luke gets the lightsaber or not.

Now lets have a look at the Uncle Owen situation in the prequels! 'Hi I'm Owen Lars, this is my girlfriend Beru, we're like step-brothers I guess'.........did he have any other lines? Consider that in AOTC the clone wars haven't even started so there can be no discussion involving Owen about those at all at this point. What about Anakin's ideals? What will Owen learn about those during their time together in this film?...Hmm..well I think cliegg lars did most of the talking and it was all about Shmi. Anakin just sat there looking sulky, then said he was off to look for her. The guy wants to find his mum - nothing for Owen to disapprove of here. After that table scene Owen has no more dialogue. Off Anakin and Padme go. Lets also note that Owen did not meet Obi-wan in this, the second prequel film. Fast forward to ROTS and me thinking...''I don't know where Lucas is going to fit in all the stuff between Owen, anakin and Obi-wan...where is Owen?''..aaannnd heres the final scene of the trilogy - without saying a single word obi-wan hands baby Luke to Beru, who herself says nothing whatsoever and then saunters over to Owen...he maybe looks in obi-wan's general direction, glances at Luke then immediately starts watching the sunset like they get babies from strangers everyday. The end.

I feel like one of the crowd who gathered to hear Graham Chapman's pretend sermon in Monty Python's Life of Brian, waiting and listening avidly...as he then trails off into nothing once he sees the roman soldiers have disappeared from view. Is there nothing more? So what was the point in all that build up?!! YOU SILLY SOD! (think thats a Holy Grail quote but you get the point)

Mad Slanted Powers
12-05-2008, 09:55 PM
I definitely think more should have been done with the Owen thing. The part about Dagobah isn't totally without merit, because right there in ESB, Yoda says, "This one a long time have I watched." Yoda certainly wasn't watching him in person the way Ben was. He was seeing things through the Force, so maybe that somehow worked like a two way radio. Luke, with his latent connection to the Force, might have somehow "seen" Dagobah in a dream that he doesn't really remember, but it was enough to give him this déjà vu feeling. He even said it was like something out of a dream.

Maybe that is too much of a stretch for some people, but many of you have accused Lucas of being so unsubtle that he has to make things so obvious all the time. Here is an example where it isn't.

Devo
12-05-2008, 10:05 PM
I definitely think more should have been done with the Owen thing. The part about Dagobah isn't totally without merit, because right there in ESB, Yoda says, "This one a long time have I watched." Yoda certainly wasn't watching him in person the way Ben was. He was seeing things through the Force, so maybe that somehow worked like a two way radio. Luke, with his latent connection to the Force, might have somehow "seen" Dagobah in a dream that he doesn't really remember, but it was enough to give him this déjà vu feeling. He even said it was like something out of a dream.

Maybe that is too much of a stretch for some people, but many of you have accused Lucas of being so unsubtle that he has to make things so obvious all the time. Here is an example where it isn't.

I might give you that one about Dagobah - the idea seems plausible, whether it was any of Lucas' intention or not is another thing...or maybe it was all down to Kasdan on that one. Luke's line goes like this: ''..still..theres something familiar about this place..I dunno..I feel like-'' ''like we're being watched'' And indeed Yoda was literally watching them at that moment but then there was also that line that implied he was watching him through the force.

But the total neglect of the Owen situation is unforgiveable. It was those sequences of dialogue that really clued us into the storyline of these prequels that were rumoured for years and years. And then nothing. Theres virtually no connect. Owen lars makes an appearance. He meets anakin once, shares 2, maybe 3 lines of dialogue, 'sees' Obi-wan once. THATS IT??

JetsAndHeels
12-05-2008, 10:59 PM
I think the problem is that Lucas wasted two films just playing around and then realized that he still had 90% of the "Anakin to Vader" storyline to tell and only one movie left to tell it in. So we ended up with everything feeling rushed and poorly thought out. Not only the Padme-death thing, but Anakin's turn to the Dark Side was too instantaneous. Not to mention that we never got a proper onscreen explanation as to who Sifo-Dyas was.

I shall call you, um, how about, say...er...darth...vader??

yeah, thats it.

I agree BigB, way too quick and not thought out.

The establishment of Anakin to Vader scene bugs me as much as Padme's losing the will to live. Horrible, horrible writing.

Tycho
12-06-2008, 12:21 AM
I have to agree with the points everyone has been making here.

ROTS (and the prequels) entertained me, but how could George Lucas have made those errors in the execution of the story?

Did he never see "Star Wars?"

You'd think that, wouldn't you?

Devo
12-06-2008, 05:00 PM
Lucas evidently decided to leave it all to be assumed as taking place offscreen - a terrible cop-out. Exactly when did Obi-wan first contact Owen Lars? Did he personally visit the Lars' beyond what we see in ROTS? Was he there long enough for Owen to develop the opinion of him that he appears to have in ANH? When in gods name did the discussion about the lightsaber take place? I dunno, I thought all this stuff was pretty important. As it stands its like old ben is waffling on, possibly telling more lies and/or unnecessary elaborations in ANH - because none of it is actually vindicated by the prequels. And of course theres the Padme dying 2 seconds after giving birth situation - which for many people outright contradicts dialogue in ROTJ - and which casts a very poor impression of the padme character. I'm amazed natalie portman went along with it.

Droid
12-08-2008, 12:38 PM
Hmm, I wasn't thinking about the lightsaber. Yes, I would probably have had Anakin know his wife was pregnant before he became Vader, but not know it was twins. I would have Anakin sense a boy (he never sensed Leia even when she stood next to him) and say he would train the son himself and give him his lightsaber.

Then Anakin would have found his wife on Alderaan demanding to know where the boy was and kill Padme when she wouldn't say.

I don't think the OT meant that Luke had to have been to Dagobah before, I just think it would have been neat if he had been born there. I think the two way radio of Yoda watching Luke so Luke sensing Dagobah thing makes perfect sense.

I also still wish Obi-wan would have made a much, much harder push to bring Anakin back from the Dark Side than he did. The primary effort shown on film was Padme's.

The biggest flaws of the PT to me are:

1. Nothing of substance with Owen.
2. Leia wouldn't have much more reason to remember her mother than Luke.
3. Obi-wan not trying to redeem Anakin more.

Droid
12-08-2008, 12:41 PM
II think what would have worked is for Anakin to leave the Jedi order at some point because of his marriage, and then Obi-Wan would come to him for help, asking him to go on one more idealistic crusade to save the Republic and stop the Sith. That's where Owen would argue that he should stay there and not get involved.

That would have worked well too.