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View Full Version : Are You Disappointed In What The Clone Wars Are Versus What You Thought They Might Be



Tycho
12-09-2008, 02:25 PM
The Clone Wars are genetically engineered human soldiers based off a Mandalorian martial artist source, fighting a bunch of battle droids owned by corporate business interests trying to get out from under Republic law.

Behind the scenes, the Clones were able to outnumber and be strategically positioned to eliminate the Jedi guardians of the Republic.

Even more in the shadows, the Republic Clones and the Separatist Droid Army were controlled by the Sith who engineered the whole thing to wind up establishing a new Sith Empire.

Now I have to admit, that in 1977 and for many years afterward, I thought that The Clone Wars would involve clones fighting clones - or humans and aliens fighting "the bad clones," instead of the Clone Troopers being the soldiers of the government, originally meant to be the good guys and the peace keepers.

Geonosis needs some re-examination. 1 Jedi was captured and sentenced to death for espionage. A second Jedi (his apprentice) and a Republic Senator joined the first Jedi (Obi-Wan) in being prosecuted and sentenced for those charges (as well as "murder of Geonosian citizens" probably).

Mace Windu takes a whole Jedi task force of like 100 Jedi Knights onto soverign soil of Geonosis, under Poggle the Lesser's rule, and NOT part of the Republic, to rescue Obi-Wan, Anakin, and the Senator.

This is comparable to the United States sending in Navy SEALS to liberate the hostages from Iran in 1980. Iran could then take that as an act of war and open hostilities against the United States. Geonosis took it as an act of war and opened hostilities against the Republic. Geonosis was allied with the other Separatist entities and joined the Confederacy of Independent Systems.

The plans for the Separatist Alliance were already made, and thus thousands of battle droids could be ordered to eliminate the Jedi who had no authority to act on Geonosis (but having sworn to protect the Republic - were they really going to let a Senator be executed there? Though Mace specifically said his mission was to help Obi-Wan and Anakin was ordered to stay on Tatooine. I don't know if Mace knew there would be a Republic Senator being held on Geonosis. Did he need 100 Jedi to go rescue Obi-Wan in the first place? I suppose better writing could have indicated Mace wanted to make a show of force so that Geonosis wouldn't get any ideas about attacking the Republic - but that was exactly what Poggle the Lesser was prepared to do in the first place).

Anyway, Yoda in following up on the lead Obi-Wan brought to him about the Clones on Kamino, goes and brings thousands of them to Geonosis to rescue the Jedi. Did he forsee needing them? This thing on Geonosis just escalated ridiculously fast.

Now we have Clones versus Droids.

In the comics, a certain martial arts culture amongst the Nikto, bred that species as clones to fight for the Separatists. For those that read the Republic comics, it gave some that wanted clone versus clone action exacty what they'd dreamt of. Human clones versus Nikto clones - but definitely a very cool change in the story.

Could the Droids have been better enemies? Yes. If they were like Terminators and not have the Baktoid Armor models used for comedy (regular battle droids) and then the Super Battle Droids being dumbed down in ROTS. Meanwhile, the IG line of droids (excepting the Magna Guard models) were never that scary either. The enemy needs to be more threatening. I'm not even sure this is good for a kid audience. WE were the kid audience when the stormtroopers were the threatening enemy. And they did a good job of it. Baktoid Armor and Inter-Galactic don't do that well of job. Ya think?

Droid
12-09-2008, 03:03 PM
I did not like the concept of Battle Droids/Destroyer Droids/Super Battle Droids. I think that they would have been used in the original trilogy if just 18-20 years they were one of the primary troop sources. And I don't think the Empire would have been above using them.

I also think that the Republic, which found cloning unethical, should have been nearly overwhelmed by an outside force that did use clones.

It is weird to name the wars after your own soliders.

Once again, we got the Clone Wars referenced in the original trilogy. Also the Clone Wars to me implies a series of wars or at least a war that lasted longer than three years.

Rocketboy
12-09-2008, 03:20 PM
I wasn't disappointed because I had no idea what to expect. All we had was one mention of the Clone Wars in the A New Hope - nothing else.

I was however initially annoyed by the idea of battle droids because I felt it was painfully obvious the only reason they were created was so the Jedi would have something to slice in half (and there was no way Lucas could make three "kids" movies with the amount of bloodshed cutting down organic beings would have led to). Now, I don't care one way or another anymore.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-09-2008, 04:31 PM
Since I first saw SW in 1997, I didn't have as much time to build up my expectations and therefore let myself get disappointed like many people here. I didn't really think about the Clone Wars much before AOTC came out, honestly. I do, however, remember being surprised that the clones were the good guys, though.

Droid
12-09-2008, 07:54 PM
I do, however, remember being surprised that the clones were the good guys, though.

Yes, Attack of the Clones is a ridiculous title for the film we were given. Yes, the Clones attack Geonosis to save the Jedi, but you'd kind of think the Clones would be attacking the good guys and you would kind of think it would be in the movie before the very, very end.

Blue2th
12-09-2008, 11:42 PM
I really hadn't given much thought to Obi-Wan and Luke's conversation about the Clone Wars in ANH, till AOTC came along and then I remembered it. I had no idea what the Clone Wars would be till then. I too had also assumed that the Clones were somehow the bad guys, and that the Jedi had fought them in a war, which turned out to be true later on after the war against the Separatists.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-10-2008, 12:25 AM
Geonosis needs some re-examination. 1 Jedi was captured and sentenced to death for espionage. A second Jedi (his apprentice) and a Republic Senator joined the first Jedi (Obi-Wan) in being prosecuted and sentenced for those charges (as well as "murder of Geonosian citizens" probably).

Mace Windu takes a whole Jedi task force of like 100 Jedi Knights onto soverign soil of Geonosis, under Poggle the Lesser's rule, and NOT part of the Republic, to rescue Obi-Wan, Anakin, and the Senator.

This is comparable to the United States sending in Navy SEALS to liberate the hostages from Iran in 1980. Iran could then take that as an act of war and open hostilities against the United States. Geonosis took it as an act of war and opened hostilities against the Republic. Geonosis was allied with the other Separatist entities and joined the Confederacy of Independent Systems.

The plans for the Separatist Alliance were already made, and thus thousands of battle droids could be ordered to eliminate the Jedi who had no authority to act on Geonosis (but having sworn to protect the Republic - were they really going to let a Senator be executed there? Though Mace specifically said his mission was to help Obi-Wan and Anakin was ordered to stay on Tatooine. I don't know if Mace knew there would be a Republic Senator being held on Geonosis. Did he need 100 Jedi to go rescue Obi-Wan in the first place? I suppose better writing could have indicated Mace wanted to make a show of force so that Geonosis wouldn't get any ideas about attacking the Republic - but that was exactly what Poggle the Lesser was prepared to do in the first place).

Anyway, Yoda in following up on the lead Obi-Wan brought to him about the Clones on Kamino, goes and brings thousands of them to Geonosis to rescue the Jedi. Did he forsee needing them? This thing on Geonosis just escalated ridiculously fast.


I think things were further along. At this point, Palpatine had been given emergency powers to create the Grand Army of the Republic. The situation with Geonosian was a combination of freeing hostages and combating terrorism because they had followed Jango there, who was suspected to be the one who tried to kill Padmé. So, a better analogy would be that the bombing of Padmé's ship on the docking platform would a 9/11 type of event that changed the nature of the Republic. They eventually tracked down those responsible to some caves on a rocky planet. The Republic came with force, but they arrived after the execution process had begun. Then the Jedi arrived, but they gave Dooku a chance to release the hostages. Only then did the battle begin. Yoda brought the clones and their attack didn't begin until most of the Jedi had been defeated and just before Dooku was about to finish the job.

As for what I thought about what the Clone Wars would be, I don't really know. There wasn't much to go on. A line from ANH was about it, along with clone references in the Heir to the Empire trilogy. That did seem to indicate that the Empire had the cloning technology, so I guess it would make sense that if the Empire was once the Republic, then any Imperial clones may have once been Republic clones.

bigbarada
12-10-2008, 08:50 AM
I really had few expectations as to what the Clone Wars would be about. From the early behind-the-scenes talk around ESB, it seemed that it would be Jedi vs. Mandalorians. So, I kind of expected to see armies of Jedi going up against armies of "Boba Fetts." I was also hoping against hope that the Stormtroopers in the OT wouldn't turn out to be clones; but didn't really object to it when I saw it onscreen.

However, turning the Clonetroopers into good guys was a nice surprise for me. It was unexpected, but it worked out pretty well.

I can kind of understand the logic behind the Battle Droids. Initially, I'm assuming wars in this galaxy would be fought like they are now. But we're already working on robotic soldiers to reduce the loss of life during war. So it seems logical that some worlds would only want to fight wars with robots, but robots are limited and I think the films and CW cartoon does a good job of showing that the Battle Droids are not creative thinkers. Hence the need for a human mind behind the blaster.

My only real problems with the prequels was the 2-dimensional, unappealing Jedi and Anakin's character.

Blue2th
12-10-2008, 09:31 AM
A Predator Drone is basically a droid gunship, though not autonomous.
Soon maybe Ed-209's out there roaming the battlefield?
I think that would be cool. We just have to watch out if they become self-aware, and decide our fate in a nano-second.

Tycho
12-10-2008, 11:03 AM
We just have to watch out if they become self-aware, and decide our fate in a nano-second.


But then a community college Student who moonlights as a waitress will save a lot of us.

bigbarada
12-10-2008, 11:08 AM
The biggest problem with robots on legs right now is the fact that they can't stand themselves back up when they inevitably trip and fall. There's no point in spending millions of dollars developing "battle droids" if they can be taken out by a 10 cent piece of fishing line strung six inches above the ground.

So that leaves wheels or tracks which have problems of their own.

Blue2th
12-10-2008, 07:56 PM
Problem a Droideka type rolling robot could solve.
Though they probably wouldn't be too good going down a hill unless they had a breaking system.

I'm waiting for a college student who moonlights as a waitress to save me first. :love:

bigbarada
12-10-2008, 09:18 PM
Well, the Droidekas would have serious problems on uneven or rocky terrain. There's no cushioning for them in "wheel mode" so they would literally rattle themselves to pieces if they were to roll for long distances across imperfect terrain.

CaptainSolo1138
12-10-2008, 09:32 PM
There is one thing that could've been brought up during the Clone Wars . (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/2711616881_94fc5bc67e.jpg)

The dude could sell Jabba the Hutt sand, yo.

Blue2th
12-10-2008, 10:21 PM
Well, the Droidekas would have serious problems on uneven or rocky terrain. There's no cushioning for them in "wheel mode" so they would literally rattle themselves to pieces if they were to roll for long distances across imperfect terrain.

Yeah, but you forgot about the Goodyear contract for Droideka parts. :grin:

FLORIDA COLLECTOR X
12-10-2008, 10:49 PM
I think the clone wars animated series is fairly awsome....I see a lot of the details from the movies that still exist in animated format that keeps things frersh from the star wars universe. The only thing I dont like is it is only 30 minutes....neds to be an hour long each week. Hasbro is totally dropping the ball with the toy line. I think they need to bring back the 12 inch line...Imaging clone wars boxed 12 inch Ahsoka Tano, or Nute Gunray, or Asajj Ventress all done animated style. Never understood why they passed the buck to gentle giant or who ever now makes those overpriced crappy figures. but hey...thats just my opinion....lets all write hasbro and tell them.....hey!!!! I know...let give mcfarlane the license to do 6 inch star wars figures ...........?

bigbarada
12-10-2008, 10:57 PM
I think the clone wars animated series is fairly awsome....I see a lot of the details from the movies that still exist in animated format that keeps things frersh from the star wars universe. The only thing I dont like is it is only 30 minutes....neds to be an hour long each week. Hasbro is totally dropping the ball with the toy line. I think they need to bring back the 12 inch line...Imaging clone wars boxed 12 inch Ahsoka Tano, or Nute Gunray, or Asajj Ventress all done animated style. Never understood why they passed the buck to gentle giant or who ever now makes those overpriced crappy figures. but hey...thats just my opinion....lets all write hasbro and tell them.....hey!!!! I know...let give mcfarlane the license to do 6 inch star wars figures ...........?

The quality of Hasbro's 12" line was a joke. That line needed to die. I think Sideshow does a great job with the license. Sure they are more expensive but the quality is amazing, so you get what you pay for. I don't really understand how you can call them "crappy."

A 6" McFarlane line would just be like a smaller version of the original Unleashed line, which was cancelled due to poor sales, so that would not be a wise move. Not to mention the vast majority of collectors who would be extremely angry at a change of format this late in the game.

Snowtrooper
12-11-2008, 12:52 PM
Although I enjoyed the prequels and am enjoying the animated series, I pictured the clone wars differently. I had always imagined it as a clone vs clone sort of a conflict. Two sides making clones and engaging in conflicts throughout the galaxy. I thought it would have been neat to have clones made of certain people that would infiltrate each others side, creating a sort of "you don't know who the enemy is" situation. Kind of like what they do on the BSG series.

Its just a general idea. I never really took the time to think out all the little details like you others did.

Tycho
12-11-2008, 03:25 PM
Snowtrooper - I like your ideas and before AOTC, thought the same thing would happen by ROTS myself.

Like I said, the comics tried by cloning Niktos on a limited basis. That was a cool story. Niktos have their own type of traditional martial artist soldiers like Mandalorians, and their clones seemed very impressive. The Jedi had to deal with them.

LTBasker
12-11-2008, 10:34 PM
Before Attack of the Clones, I had always assumed the Clone Wars would be much more like a cold war. A handful of military engagements with battle forces - on a galactic scale, at least - with the biggest threat being a mysterious enemy that uses Clones to infiltrate the withstanding galactic government, and possibly the Jedi. Eventually the mistrust, betrayal and seclusion that would be growing within the inside of the government would lead to a horrific and chaotic implosion. I never considered that the Jedi would be some sort of elite police unit that side-governed the galaxy, meanwhile the Republic acted as an equivelent to the U.N. stereotype and never accomplished any progress.

I always assumed that the Jedi would more of a mysterious group that existed subtely amongst the people, and only during the Clone Wars would they attempt to stand up against the chaos to help the innocent bystanders, and to bring order alongside the government's military force. I've always felt that the way Lucas went made the Star Wars universe feel so tiny, as the Republic didn't seem to have any military force of it's own, and every planet seemed to have a tiny military force. It was only with the use of vast artificial armies that there was any sort of galactic scale to the war.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-11-2008, 10:57 PM
I never considered that the Jedi would be some sort of elite police unit that side-governed the galaxyI'm wondering why you would think that, since Obi-Wan said that the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. I think they were pretty much what I thought they would be, or at least I wasn't really surprised by anything on screen. They were kind of a mysterious cloistered order, but they would be sent out to mediate disputes and engage in peacekeeping missions (which sometimes might involve aggressive negotiations). The Clone Wars and the events leading up to it kind of changed their role.

Tycho
12-11-2008, 11:27 PM
To answer Lt.Basker with my point of view:

I always thought of the Jedi as having been organized just like the X-Men.

Here you have segments of many different populations (aliens, humans) who develop exceptional gifts for foreseeing the future, manipulating energy, and telekinisis, amongst other things.

A "school for the gifted" was established to train these types of people to use their powers for the good of the galaxy. Left to their parents to raise them - without experience handling such abilities - many Dark Siders would naturally evolve (by this I do not mean Sith - that's different). So in exchange for the education and training that these youngsters would get, planets donating to the Jedi Order would receive Knights assigned to them to help them in times of trouble. By having so many different species trained as Jedi, it would be possible to have Jedi agents operating in any given alien populace - covertly if necessary.

The Republic was like the U.N. and the Jedi were formally on-call by the Senate.

In TPM, the Trade Federation and other commercial interests were under attack by more and more pirating. The individual planets who might have dispatched soldiers for peace-keeping missions (like the United States contributes to the U.N.) did not want to spend tax-money supporting private corporations. The Trade Federation ILLEGALLY purchased their battle droid armies as pirate attacks stepped up. (The pirates were unknowingly being hired by the Sith in the first place - this info comes from Cloak of Deception and Darth Maul: Saboteur). But the Trade Federation was taking control of planets - which is how they got a seat in the Senate in the first place (we're not too off today where Ford, GM, and Crysler are trying to get "seats" in our Senate). So the Republic raised taxes to help fund inter-planetary peace-keeping (the blue uniforms and the cruisers like Qui-Gon arrived on in TPM). But as Darth Sidious, Palpatine manipulated the blockade of Naboo to protest the tax increase because planets didn't want to pay it, and the Trade Federation could handle it more cheaply if they used battle droids.

Anyway, 10 years later, the Republic needed regular troops to defend against so many battle droids and an aggressive CIS. The Jedi were chosen to be the natural managers of such efforts, so as to try and keep the Republic's principals. However, we know Palpatine was using that logical choice for employing the Jedi to actually kill them off instead.

But Jedi did have the military / tactical training to handle their roles as generals.

I'm still not sure why it was called the Clone WAR(S) though. It seemed Geonosis triggered a 3 year fight for independence by the CIS. I always thought the Clone Wars would have lasted longer myself.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-12-2008, 12:08 AM
It was called the Clone Wars because Yoda said so: "Begun this clone war has."

I suppose to an average Republic citizen hearing about this on the news, the big story would be that Palpatine got emergency powers and enlisted these clones to fight the war for them. Without them, the Republic wouldn't have had a well enough organized army ready to fight at Geonosis. With the clones, they didn't have to rely on recruiting regular citizens to fight.

LTBasker
12-12-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm wondering why you would think that, since Obi-Wan said that the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.

I don't see "guardians" as a very well-describing term for what they were in the prequels. Supreme overlords really seems to be more along the lines of it, especially as they cut someone's arm off and simply have to say "Jedi business" in order to get people to look the other way.


To answer Lt.Basker with my point of view:

I always thought of the Jedi as having been organized just like the X-Men.

Here you have segments of many different populations (aliens, humans) who develop exceptional gifts for foreseeing the future, manipulating energy, and telekinisis, amongst other things.

A "school for the gifted" was established to train these types of people to use their powers for the good of the galaxy. Left to their parents to raise them - without experience handling such abilities - many Dark Siders would naturally evolve (by this I do not mean Sith - that's different). So in exchange for the education and training that these youngsters would get, planets donating to the Jedi Order would receive Knights assigned to them to help them in times of trouble. By having so many different species trained as Jedi, it would be possible to have Jedi agents operating in any given alien populace - covertly if necessary.

That would be far more interesting and far more organized than what Lucas seemed to attempt to do in the movies. His idea behind the Jedi seems far more elitist. I prefer the thought of them blending in with populations as opposed to them acting as though they have a "do anything and get away with it badge," also because I think it really supports the ANH line "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights." The massacre of the Jedi during ROTS was interesting, but it really didn't fit in with that line.


I'm still not sure why it was called the Clone WAR(S) though. It seemed Geonosis triggered a 3 year fight for independence by the CIS. I always thought the Clone Wars would have lasted longer myself.

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. We know Yoda has a unique grammar system, but making things plural when they don't need to be? One could use the obvious explanation as to why it doesn't make any sense, but I'll skip that. That's the main reason why I always thought the Clones were a much different usage rather than soldiers, as the term "Clone Wars" would be the best way to describe an era in which several wars were waged due to clone infiltration of governments.

If the Clones had been the only military force fighting for the Republic then I could somewhat understand the usage, but there were other species' militaries fighting (rather insignificantly) on their planets.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-12-2008, 06:33 PM
I believe there was a scene in the Heir to the Empire trilogy where Luke did some mediating, and the parties involved seemed to respect his decision. That's one thing I had in mind. To me, "Guardians of peace and justice" seems to fit well with the police motto of "To serve and protect". So, the idea of Jedi going around and intervening in disputes seems quite natural. Plus, they carry those lightsabers around, so they have a weapon.

Also, in ANH we hear Tarkin and Solo both use the term religion when talking about the Jedi. Obi-Wan was dressed like a monk, and Yoda spoke of the Force in a spiritual manner. So, these things seem consistent what we see in the prequels.

Dark Marble
12-15-2008, 04:21 PM
I think this is a great question. When I really started to think of what my 7 year old self was thinking about this, my answer was nothing. I didn't think much beyond clones fighting. I didn't think about the political structure or the nature of the war and I didn't think about who or what the clones were. I just thought fighting clones.

I really wasn't disappionted with the new movies as I did not know what a clone war would be. But I liked the end result. I am watching the new clone wars cartoons with my daugter and as we watch I have really loved the interaction between the clones and the jedi. It makes order 66 more grim as family seemed to turn on each other with no remorse. It seems to me that the empire took a free thinking person and changed them into the mindless droids they were fighting.

Tycho
12-16-2008, 12:57 AM
I don't think the clones were free-thinking persons to start with.

They were 10 year olds in adult bodies. Think about how you can get a 5th grader to cooperate with you and how much they could analyze and comprehend Order 66.

They're growth-accelerated so they look like 20 year olds (Bodie Taylor's portrayal of the Clones eating breakfast on Kamino). But they are 10 years old mentally, emotionally.

When Obi-Wan toured Kamino, Lama Su said "this group was created 5 years ago" but they were already looking like 10 year old Danniel Logan.

But the thing is, they're disposable soldiers so a mental-10-year-old is going to follow orders and believe white armor will protect him from droid laser beams, etc. Most of them die in battle, and if they don't, by the time they are reaching 20 years old mentally, they are nearly 40 in appearance - and possibly genetically predisposed to die young from natural causes.

Yes there are a lot of ethical considerations involved with using a human clone army.

bigbarada
12-16-2008, 09:40 AM
I don't think the clones were free-thinking persons to start with.

They were 10 year olds in adult bodies. Think about how you can get a 5th grader to cooperate with you and how much they could analyze and comprehend Order 66.

They're growth-accelerated so they look like 20 year olds (Bodie Taylor's portrayal of the Clones eating breakfast on Kamino). But they are 10 years old mentally, emotionally.

When Obi-Wan toured Kamino, Lama Su said "this group was created 5 years ago" but they were already looking like 10 year old Danniel Logan.

But the thing is, they're disposable soldiers so a mental-10-year-old is going to follow orders and believe white armor will protect him from droid laser beams, etc. Most of them die in battle, and if they don't, by the time they are reaching 20 years old mentally, they are nearly 40 in appearance - and possibly genetically predisposed to die young from natural causes.

Yes there are a lot of ethical considerations involved with using a human clone army.

If you read up on the Hitler Youth from WW2, they started enlisting 12-year-old boys as a last line of defense and these kids were reportedly the fiercest fighters in Hitler's army.

Young children are easy to indoctrinate and don't understand the concept of mercy, so they make extremely effective warriors. Their only weakness would be their physical strength; but if you could put a 10-year-old mind into a 20-year-old body, then you'd have the ultimate warrior. So that aspect of the Clone Wars story makes perfect sense.

Blue2th
12-16-2008, 10:49 AM
Playing Army as a kid was fun, it was a natural inclination for me, but this was the real deal. :sad:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-16-2008, 02:00 PM
I think that the clones' minds accelerated along with their bodies, but I'm not sure. That's just what I've always thought.

clone157
12-16-2008, 08:25 PM
You know, when I thought of the Clone Wars, I always envisioned two opposing armies of clones. One of the jedi and one of the sith. I felt that it explained the nature of Obi-wan's name: OB-1, or Original Batch - 1. There was a great faux trailer that came out before EPII on You Tube where someone edited footage from Braveheart adding lightrsabers to the fighters running down a hill. I hoped that would be in the movie but apparently Lucas decided that there would be fewer jedi roaming the galaxy. I would have loved battle scenes like from Croutching Tiger, Hidden Dragon but with armies fighting in that fashion. Like a live action Ninja Scroll, or something. As far as order 66 goes, I loved that Lucas stole something from history. If anyone looks at the order of the Knights Templar and their demise they will see a corrolation. Supposedly the then King of France had grown jealous of their power and wealth as the army of the Vatican and decided to eliminate them. The ensuing engagement was swift and far reaching as the King's forces acted almost at the same time "worldwide" (the known world was much smaller at the time). That is why that date, Friday the 13th, has been forever associated with bad luck. I don't mind the battle droids as a whole, but I don't like how they are shown as being stupid comic relief. I must admit that I do love the clones themselves, especially with their individuality starting to come through. However, I do not appreciate Hasbro focusing on the animated versions of the characters as opposed to the Legacy collection. Some of us have been collecting for years and do not like how all the improvements like added articulation and better cuts/plastic being used on Kamas (clone dresses). Many of us still have bad tastes in our mouths from the last Animated Series of figures. When Hasbro doesn't even give us a true new wave instead giving us repaints on sub standard molds of figures, especially when we may never see these characters done again like Jodo Kast.

El Chuxter
12-16-2008, 08:37 PM
I was hoping for nudity. There was no nudity. This made me mad. For all its many flaws, Revenge of the Sith could have been saved by a mere ten seconds of gratuitous nudity.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-16-2008, 08:52 PM
I was hoping for nudity. There was no nudity. This made me mad. For all its many flaws, Revenge of the Sith could have been saved by a mere ten seconds of gratuitous nudity.

The Wookiees were all naked.

pbarnard
12-18-2008, 12:50 PM
The Wookiees were all naked.

Plus that MonCal water dancer was wearing something pretty sheer too..

Late to the party,

but the Clone Wars from all descriptions could've been 10-15 years. It still would've allowed to fit the time lines as far as we known, kept Anakin and Padme reasonably young/child bearing. Plus with the expanded time frame, it would've allowed for more battles to spread causing the damage and the so called "lost data/years" mentioned in the EU pre-prequals.

While I think for the most part, the Clone Wars would leave most places untouched, but that is due to the vastness that is space/a galaxy. The places were fighting was taking place given that it was the corporate "free trade" vs the "altruism/good of all" would've been fierce. We're talking about fighting over central banks not on Coruscant, major shipyards, major manufacturing sites of durable goods, mines and material refineries and along every major port/trade route. It is the equivalent on Earth of door to door fighting in New York, London, Berlin, Moscow, Detriot, SE China (where the factories are), Beijing, the entire Middle East, Venezuela and the North Sea. Not a lot of places geophraphically speaking, but enough to cripple the world economy and make a lot of people jumpy about where next?

The one thing I never got was the resentment towards the clones by the populace was never delved into. Why was cloning banned eventually (more an EU question)? Is it just irony that the Empire (ie the beuaracracy that wasn't Sith) wanted to keep the machinery of the Republic but adapt the methods of the Sepratists? Padme and the deleted Senate scenes go to this, why did the Republic go from fighting the Sepratist to almost calling to be a Rebellion then?

I don't see 3 years as long enough for the exploits of one boy/man to become a galactic hero. It's not enough time to build the resentment of the Jedi/Clones, spread the devestation etc around.

Tycho
12-20-2008, 04:05 PM
I agree with a lot of what pbarnard is saying.

The Clone Wars and circumstances prior to it did cause the resentment of droids - largely because of the Trade Federation and other business conglomerates' uses of automated security forces.

From the EU, we know this was because the Sith were encouraging piracy through controllable, independent operatives (Darth Maul broke the back of Black Sun to avoid their entanglement).

I think it depended on the planet and an individual's perspective as to whether the Clones were heroes (during the Clone Wars) or something else.

It is ethically questionable to harvest a human being, then program him, giving him the body of a 20 year old, but the actual living experience of a 10 year old. Then the Clone (if not killed in action) would probably have a life expectancy of 30 years total (20 in deployment after 10 years of growth and training). He might resemble a 40 or 50 year old when dying from natural causes (due to the growth acceleration). I don't think that has fully been explained.

But do they ever desire normal lives? Do they want girlfriends, wives? I'd assume since they are genetically modified, their sexuality might be "denied," or at least the 10 year olds (who look 20 and wear the armor we get as action figures, Cody etc - though Cody is likely 13 years old) wouldn't be interested in "domestic life" before they are killed. That's easily surmised by the odds. The droids they are fighting are rolled off assembly lines 1000 times or more faster than clones can be grown.

Because of the fact in my last sentence, I think the Republic and then Empire was forced to start a military service DRAFT for non-clone Stormtroopers.

Also because of that, the war probably did have to be short, or the CIS would have won, just by the numbers. Sure a really good and strategically placed Clone was probably worth 20 or more droids - but not always. In CN's first series, we've seen an ARC Trooper gun down like 6 battle droids really quickly, but what if there were more droids behind him? The element of surprise works for the Clones, but it is not always available - depending upon the mission of course.

Anyway, these 10 year olds BELIEVE their white armor will deflect laser blasts and as such, they'll charge the droids or board the Tantive IV in ANH (because maybe the draft-picks are brain-washed to also believe their armor will protect them?).

I think the armor does deflect the blasts to a large degree. Han Solo's gun for example, has some kind of extra chemical kick to its blasts or something though, as it can pierce the armor. I think those kinds of guns grew popular as the Empire began using more and more armored troops for supression. Meanwhile, the Ewoks shot arrows to hit the openings in the body armor. Many stormtroopers were likely taken out by non-lifethreatening wounds - from arrows in the underarms or leg joints. Though I'm sure the neck shots were lethal. Other laser pistols were probably most effective going for those joint shots, too.

I guess Leia's gun was armor-piercing for sure, in spite of its small size. She shot a stormtrooper on the Tantive IV and two at the shield bunker on Endor. (Death Star scenes had her using an Imperial blaster of course).

pbarnard
12-22-2008, 09:33 AM
The non-clone Stormtroopers is touched on in the boook Alliegance. You are right on the conscription of soldiers, mostly Navy crewers to free clones up to be stormtroopers and early TIE Pilots. But we know eventually that TIE pilots became a competitive position filled by non-clones in 20 some years.

I thought Karen Travis started/is starting to touch on the clones and what happened. Was Palpy's twisting of the truth that the Jedi wanted to take over enough to turn them all to his side.

As to Han's DL-44, it was modified to sacrifice range and firing rate for power (plus it being a heavy pistol to begin with did more damage at the start). Leia used a D(something) Defender, basically a sport shooting pistol. Not as powerful, but she was a crack shot due to Bail training her to be so.