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Slicker
01-04-2009, 02:50 AM
Why would Obers just leave Luke to die if Luke needed help with his duel with Vader in ESB? It seems that Yoda and Obi-Wan don't have any sense of urgency in training Luke properly if they wanna see him fail. First Yoda tries to refuse to train him and then Obi-Wan says he's just gonna bone out and not help him.

What gives?

JediTricks
01-04-2009, 03:40 AM
I've always seen it as: if Luke goes to face Vader on Bespin, he will be giving in to the wrong elements, he will be letting himself open to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan has already gone down that path with Anakin and came up making things much worse. Obi-Wan's interference with Anakin's life gave him more opportunities and power on the road to the Dark Side. For the Jedi, it's either do or do not, there is no halfway training, you either do it right or you destroy the galaxy. Luke bucked that trend but just barely.

To be honest, I dunno what help Luke thought Obi-Wan's spirit would be there anyway.

Slicker
01-04-2009, 03:44 AM
I was thinking along those lines too but just found it strange that with the galaxy in turmoil neither of them is really willing to help him and making him do it all on his own. Also, perhaps Luke thought Obi-Wan's spirit could've helped in the same sense that it helped in ANH in the trench. *shrugs*

JediTricks
01-04-2009, 04:04 AM
It's funny, the way Obi-Wan's spirit helps in the trench is not clearly defined. Did Obi-Wan merely advise Luke, did he guide his hand, did he block Vader's Force influence? What did he do? It's not clear, but seeing the entire OT in context it seems like it was more substantial than just some words of wisdom at the right time.

In ESB, I guess Obi-Wan just didn't want to risk another Anakin-style failure, he'd rather let the galaxy's last hope die rather than risk putting more Jedi abilities in the hands of the Sith. The galaxy would suffer for a while, but probably return to the ways of the Light Side eventually after a few centuries. Plus, what does he care? He's a ghost. :p

Devo
01-04-2009, 08:40 AM
I've always just figured he couldn't help - as in he's dead, he's just a spirit and spirits cannot physically impact on the living world.

Kidhuman
01-04-2009, 09:00 AM
HE is a Ghost, he cant do anything but appear and say Boo!!!!

dr_evazan22
01-04-2009, 10:17 AM
It's funny, the way Obi-Wan's spirit helps in the trench is not clearly defined. Did Obi-Wan merely advise Luke, did he guide his hand, did he block Vader's Force influence? What did he do? It's not clear, but seeing the entire OT in context it seems like it was more substantial than just some words of wisdom at the right time.

In ESB, I guess Obi-Wan just didn't want to risk another Anakin-style failure, he'd rather let the galaxy's last hope die rather than risk putting more Jedi abilities in the hands of the Sith. The galaxy would suffer for a while, but probably return to the ways of the Light Side eventually after a few centuries. Plus, what does he care? He's a ghost. :p

It almost seems like Luke took Qui Gon's teaching to heart: Your focus determines your reality.

Obi's refusal to help Luke against Vader was Luke's 2nd clue that there was a lot more to the Obi, Ani, Vader story than Luke had been told (the 1st being the cave).

How could Obi have helped Luke when facing vader tho? Hovering over Luke's shoulder, Like Gazoo from the Flintstones: "Use the Force Luke... No! The Force!", "Tell 'im you like your burgers charbroiled!", "If your not careful he'll cut your hand off!".... "Told ya. ... If you'd used the Force like I told you it wouldn't've happened."

More seriously, I think Yoda and Obi both knew that Luke would ultimately be fighting himself, just like in the cave. While their Jedi teaching could help Luke recognize the "right" path, it was a gut check Luke had to make with himself. I think that Yoda and Obi just wanted to postpone Luke's encounter until the Jedi perspective had more time to "set" in Luke's mind.

One thing that's puzzled me, occasionally, is why when Luke returns to Yoda, is he not a Jedi until after he faces Vader... Again. "So, you didn't want me to face him before, but you want me to go face him now? Why now? What's changed?"

El Chuxter
01-04-2009, 01:15 PM
It was a jab at the people who read early scripts online back in 1979, when Obi-Wan and Tan Skywalker showed up to fight Vader.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-04-2009, 02:17 PM
One thing that's puzzled me, occasionally, is why when Luke returns to Yoda, is he not a Jedi until after he faces Vader... Again. "So, you didn't want me to face him before, but you want me to go face him now? Why now? What's changed?"
That's what I've wondered, too. There wasn't any more training between Luke and Yoda between ESB and ROTJ, right? Maybe Luke was just more mature and calm with his thoughts at that point. He seemed that way in ROTJ as compared to ESB, anyway. I would say that it had to do with the fact that he learned that Vader was his father and accepted the fact, but Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't seem to want Luke to know that. Maybe they still didn't want him to know that, but it caused him to be more mature and they thought that was a positive aspect? I dunno.

JediTricks
01-04-2009, 02:48 PM
I've always just figured he couldn't help - as in he's dead, he's just a spirit and spirits cannot physically impact on the living world.By saying that if Luke goes to Bespin now he can't help, it implies that Obi-Wan's spirit could help if he choses a different time.



It almost seems like Luke took Qui Gon's teaching to heart: Your focus determines your reality. I've always found that to be a bit too existentialist, standing in contrast of the pragmatism of the OT universe and the Jedi philosophies we were given there.


Obi's refusal to help Luke against Vader was Luke's 2nd clue that there was a lot more to the Obi, Ani, Vader story than Luke had been told (the 1st being the cave). Wow, that is a very different take on that matter from what I'm used to. I've always felt that the cave wasn't about the backstory, but about the baggage Luke carried in there; when Yoda said the only thing in there was what Luke took with him, he meant it, that Vader with Luke's head wasn't about Anakin so much as about Luke's attitude towards weapons in general and his lack of trust and his lack of understanding about the nature of the Force, all of which could lead him to the Dark Side just like it did Vader.


More seriously, I think Yoda and Obi both knew that Luke would ultimately be fighting himself, just like in the cave. While their Jedi teaching could help Luke recognize the "right" path, it was a gut check Luke had to make with himself. I think that Yoda and Obi just wanted to postpone Luke's encounter until the Jedi perspective had more time to "set" in Luke's mind.I know Lucas originally conceived of ROTJ with Obi-Wan returning from the grave to help Luke defeat Vader and the Emperor, so I wonder if maybe they really did feel if Obi-Wan could, in some way or another, help Luke in the final fight. Perhaps manipulate the Force around him, or ethereally confuse the Emperor.


One thing that's puzzled me, occasionally, is why when Luke returns to Yoda, is he not a Jedi until after he faces Vader... Again. "So, you didn't want me to face him before, but you want me to go face him now? Why now? What's changed?"That was handled very badly, but there's supposed to be a transition in Luke himself, his defeat at Bespin changed his attitude (if he had won that battle, he would have likely got sucked into the Dark Side), and then the path of assembling a new lightsaber and growing up, becoming more responsible, I guess that was the rest of it. This was one area where Shadows of the Empire totally blew it, they treated it like a switch that was thrown inside of Luke, one moment he's still the clumsy fool of Bespin, the next he can finally feel the Force like a champ instead of a chump.



That's what I've wondered, too. There wasn't any more training between Luke and Yoda between ESB and ROTJ, right?Unlikely. Luke's mission on Tattooine is one that stands in defiance of what the Jedi stand for, it's all about his attachment to his friend (again). And Luke's first act is using the Force for assault against those Gamorreans, that choke isn't a defensive act at that point. Then he grabs for a blaster pistol to shoot Jabba, also not very Jedi. And he's wearing all black, Yoda would have probably shamed him on that fashion aspect. :p


Maybe Luke was just more mature and calm with his thoughts at that point. He seemed that way in ROTJ as compared to ESB, anyway. I would say that it had to do with the fact that he learned that Vader was his father and accepted the fact, but Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't seem to want Luke to know that. Maybe they still didn't want him to know that, but it caused him to be more mature and they thought that was a positive aspect? I dunno.There definitely seems like a change in the character from ESB to ROTJ, it was a conscious choice and Han even voices the audience's thoughts about that on the skiff. I take it more as a product of Luke's humbling experience on Bespin that turned into a wise choice (self-sacrifice rather than give in to Vader and the Dark Side), the passage of 6 months or so, the building of the lightsaber, time to meditate on what he had learned and such.

jediguy
01-04-2009, 03:50 PM
I think it's because Obi Wan wanted Luke to call on Leia for help, thus making his connection to the force stronger

JetsAndHeels
01-04-2009, 08:58 PM
One thing that's puzzled me, occasionally, is why when Luke returns to Yoda, is he not a Jedi until after he faces Vader... Again. "So, you didn't want me to face him before, but you want me to go face him now? Why now? What's changed?"

I always figured it was because in ESB Luke was unaware that Vader was his father, therefore he was unaware of his true destiny. After he found out during their duel on Bespin, things changed.

Luke confirms this with Yoda in ROTJ, then Obi's spirit explains why this information was not revealed to him earlier. Notice how Luke's entire attitude changes when he says "I can't do it Ben, I can't kill my father". Obi then basically says "Then the Emperor has already won."

Luke was hellbent on confronting Vader to save his friends in ESB, yet in ROTJ when he knew he was his father, he did not want to embrace his destiny. Perhaps that was a big reason for the change.
It kind of reminds me of how Obi did not want to capture/kill Anakin (Vader) before their duel on Mustafar.

Just my 2 cents.

Mad Slanted Powers
01-04-2009, 09:58 PM
One thing that's puzzled me, occasionally, is why when Luke returns to Yoda, is he not a Jedi until after he faces Vader... Again. "So, you didn't want me to face him before, but you want me to go face him now? Why now? What's changed?"I think it is as Yoda said: "Unfortunate that you rushed to face him...that incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden were you." Now, he knows the truth, has the experience of the ESB encounter, and with a last little bit of advice from Yoda and Obi-Wan, he is more ready than he was before. Plus, it is something that he has to do eventually.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-05-2009, 08:05 PM
Remember when Obi-Wan says "I cannot help you," and Luke says "I understand"? Yoda had a "whaaaa-?!?" look on his face, so I wonder if it was a gamble on O-W's part, but since he said it, couldn't go back on his threat.