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JediTricks
04-10-2009, 05:27 PM
The first official Q&A of Spring. It's Hasbro's answers to SSG questions for April 10th, 2009. Thanks again to Hasbro for the answers, to all the folks who sent in questions and especially those who voted on them.


Hasbro Q&A for the week of April 10th


SSG: When it comes to prequel Senators, we haven't seen much lately. The most asked of them is the Senator Grebleips figure, the E.T. alien - will we ever be getting this figure, is it just unlikely because it's a background alien, or is it totally off-limits because it's an easter egg from another film? Also, what about seeing senate figures from Ep 1 like Edcel Bar Gane, Sei Taria, Toonbuck Toora and Mot-Not Rab?
Hasbro: Senator and Separatist figures have been very slow sellers for us, so while we're not ruling them out, they are not high on our list of figures to target. We're confident that we'll get around to more some day, especially if the collector base rebounds as these figures are 100% collector-targeted. Until then, they'll stay on the sidelines. Grebleips is off limits per Lucasfilm, joining (among a few others) the oft-asked for female Cantina denizens, Holiday Special live action figures, and Tyvokka as figures we cannot/will not pursue.

SSG: With the new Droid Factory sets, included is a Corran Horn / Whistler 2-pack. As Corran Horn is an EU character, he is seen as not likely to get multiple figures, so as such, why is this 2-pack coming with a standard orange flight costume rather than Horn's more distinctive green-hued version? Whistler also is lacking his overall green tinge, but since this seems like it may be the only Corran Horn figure fans will see, why not make it as characteristically accurate as possible?
Hasbro: This one is in the orange jumpsuit, which is one of his outfits from the novel and the one we went with. Regarding the coloration of Whistler, we take Lucasfilm's direction on all deco, with the intent of being as accurate as possible to the reference material. As for additional Corran Horn figures someday, we would not rule out the possibility, and the green suit would be a great alternate deco for further down the road. How far, we don't know, considering how long it took to get him into the lineup in the first place. We're stoked to be bringing the pair out, in any case.

SSG: With the Build-A-Droid line, there's been some confusion about the naming with a few of the figures. First off, there's R2-N6 who was properly named at last year's Comic-Con presentation yet later got renamed to R2-L3. Second, there's the upcoming U-3PO figure that has a silver tone rather than the slightly brassy look from the movie, and is shipping in an ESB wave, a film which already has a silver protocol droid, E-3PO, except that character has white instead of yellow eyes. What's the deal with these build-a-figures and their identity issues?
Hasbro: We do not select the droids to match the film theme of the wave, but instead based on which ones we feel are important to do; as one of the first droids we see in EpIV, we felt U-3PO was the choice to go with. As to the R2-L3, it turns out that R2-N6 was not an official Lucasfilm-given name for this droid, so we later switched based on Lucasfilm direction. This reversal has happened a few times with the buildable astros, since we have targeted several "unmade" droids who had not yet been given official designations.

- -


And our questions at CollectionStation.com (http://www.collectionstation.com/groups/Star-Wars/Hasbro-Q-A-April-10_47):


Some collectors shy away from EU items unless they tie into major characters from the films, or strongly tie into the movie saga story. With that in mind, what are the chances of seeing figures of these influential EU characters: the ghost of Luke Skywalker (Legacy), Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, Darth Plagueis, or even a young Count Dooku?
Based on your slideshow at Toy Fair, there seems to be a discrepancy on the subject of exclusive 2-pack figures. The Wal-mart Grievous Droid Factory figure with new cloth cloak shown in the slide was the 4-armed basic figure from 2005's ROTS line, however what was said during the slideshow was that it'd be the super-articulated 2008 figure. Which Grievous will actually be coming in that set with the new cloak? Also, it was noted that that the Target-exclusive Geonosis Arena figure pack Jango Fett would be tweaked, but there was no explanation given and the figure looks the same as the Evolutions version. What's the change there, can fans hope that the evo figure jumpsuit's lilac color is finally being changed to a more blue-gray look as seen in the movie?
As shown at Toy Fair, the upcoming Geonosis Assault battle pack is coming with the long-requested Gunship pod turret and 2 clone pilots. Since each gunship had 2 turrets in the film, that will require buying 2 sets, making 4 pilots. However, the gunship is manned by 2 pilots in the cockpit, and 2 standard grunts in the turrets. While thrilled to get the pods and more clones, could we get a regular clone trooper helmet as well as, or even instead of 1 of, those pilot helmets so the gunships can be accurately, completely manned?

JediTricks
04-10-2009, 05:29 PM
I cannot wait to see your reactions to these 6 answers. I have a family gathering in a few minutes, but I hope when I get home later tonight that you guys have been totally honest in your feelings in all of this. :p

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-10-2009, 05:40 PM
Oh, I certainly do NOT like the first answer. I can understand doing fewer senators or separatists, but "especially if the collector base rebounds" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's not our fault that they overproduced Yarna!

I can live with the U-3PO/R2-L3 answer. After looking it over, U-3PO's brassy color might actually be a reflection of C-3PO, since he looks silver when he's by himself but brassy next to C-3PO. I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but I wondered if "N6" reminded people of a six-letter word starting with "n" . . . probably not, but who knows?

I thought they said just last round that they wouldn't do a spirit Luke. That's good news on the likelihood of the others, though.

They didn't say what the change is to Jango, but that sucks that it'll be another lilac one. At least it'll be corrected next year. It also sucks about that Grievous, but I wasn't really expecting them to use the 2008 version anyway.

I also wasn't really expecting a change on the Geonosis set. Eh, I guess I'll just have an absolute ton of pilots now.

Beast
04-10-2009, 05:50 PM
Why is Tyvokka off limits? I can understand E.T. and such. But he's just a Wookiee Jedi.

DarkJedi5
04-10-2009, 06:36 PM
Why is Tyvokka off limits? I can understand E.T. and such. But he's just a Wookiee Jedi.

I think some one asked about this one a while back and it got shut down big time. Something about Lucas not wanting Wookiee Jedis because it ruins his original vision of them a species or something. Despite there being at least one other Wookiee Jedi in the EU, Lobacca I think....

Tycho
04-10-2009, 07:51 PM
First, I'd like to say I am happy that Corran Horn is first being issued in an orange flight suit. This is his official appearance as a full-fledged member of Rogue Squadron, in their uniform. I myself don't think I have any use for the green CorSec flight suit in any dioramas I have planned. But then I took to liking Corran Horn mostly as a Jedi Knight and Master, and next back as a young man training to be an inspector for CorSec under his father, Hal Horn. Granted he flew as a pilot in those days and wore the local Corellian colors, but his ground time was more interesting than his time in the air back in those days (to me, personally). I liked that Corran was intellectually smart and intuitive, besides just being a pilot with good instincts (which we'd later learn was Force sensitivity). We already saw that with Luke.

I am really curious as to why Tyvokka, a comic book Wookiee Jedi character is off-limits (Plo Koon's Jedi Master as a matter of fact). He died during the Stark Hyperspace War. Lucasfilm allowed Dark Horse to print that - and years after Rebecca Moesta (Kevin J. Anderson's wife) wrote Lowbacca (Chewie's Force-sensitive nephew) as having been trained at Luke's Jedi Academy alongside Jaina and Jacen Solo. Lowbacca, being a long-living Wookiee, could easily be alive and still fighting during the Legacy era that Cade Skywalker fights in today. (Actually, Lowie would be very loyal to the Imperial Fel family, given that the new Imperial royal line is also the heir of Jaina Solo. A Wookiee Jedi fighting on behalf of the Empire would be quite interesting to explore - sort of like a Jewish high commander of all of Germany's military forces.)

By the way, as far as EU characters getting multiple figures? How many figures is Quinlan Vos up to now? A'Sharad Hett (if you count Darth Kraayt)?
And Aayla Secura started as a comic book character (Quinlan's apprentice) but Lucas himself stuck her in the movie.

It sucks about the Senator figures. Grieblips (ET) was an expected answer. In Hollywood's Universal Studios theme park, they used to sell ETs that were pretty much the right scale. I always intended to get about 12 of them (for 3 different senate scenes, aptly named, E1, E2, and E3). I'd like Edcel Bar Gane and Sei Teria, the Ithorian Senator, Rodian Senator (now in Clone Wars), and more.

A young Count Dooku is the figure I'm most excited to see amongst the off-the-beaten path, movie-mentioned figures, unless "The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis" can be penned by James Luceno as planned. And Sypho Dias might be interesting. I'd buy a ghost of Luke Skywalker to haunt his distant descendent, Cade, but it's not a figure I'm particularly interested in.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-10-2009, 09:03 PM
They said that Tyvokka was off-limits several weeks ago. I know George nixed the idea of Wookiee Jedi in ROTS so they could be shown as regular Wookiee warriors in their natural habitat, so I guess this covers that.

BanthaSkull (http://banthaskull.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2704) got a sweet picture of Clegg Holdfast. It looks pretty good, even though he is making a goofy face. I didn't realize he was pantsless as well as genitalless. :D

Also, JediTempleArchives got word that a new Agen Kolar is coming this fall. I thought the old one was pretty good, but I need another for the arena, so I'm cool with it.

bigbarada
04-10-2009, 11:39 PM
Honestly, I think it would be best to just drop the issue of 'off limits' figures and stop hounding Hasbro about it. There are still plenty of OT figures left to be made or updated that could keep the line going for years. I could easily come up with a list of 25 figures that have never been immortalized in plastic, who don't fall into the off limits category and would make great ACTION figures, not just diorama filler.

Tycho
04-11-2009, 12:13 AM
Refer to MadSlantedPowers' poll results - that is if you don't consider what we all voted on (you too) to be diorama filler.

But me personally, well my tastes are (mostly) for diorama filler!

Darth Windu
04-11-2009, 12:25 AM
Honestly, I think it would be best to just drop the issue of 'off limits' figures and stop hounding Hasbro about it.
Agreed. Rebelscum does this a lot, and frankly all it does is wastes a question and annoys Hasbro, since they're answering the same question with the same answer over and over.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-11-2009, 01:03 AM
Agreed. Rebelscum does this a lot, and frankly all it does is wastes a question and annoys Hasbro, since they're answering the same question with the same answer over and over.
Same thing with "are you gonna make figures from the show in the realistic style" - they answer it all the damn time, and it's always no. Think up some new questions, people.

bigbarada
04-11-2009, 01:38 AM
Refer to MadSlantedPowers' poll results - that is if you don't consider what we all voted on (you too) to be diorama filler.

But me personally, well my tastes are (mostly) for diorama filler!

Well, there are background characters who aren't diorama filler. For instance, the Skiff Guards directly interact with the heroes during one of the main action sequences of ROTJ. Thus they belong in a different category from say... Willrow Hood who really did nothing in ESB but run offscreen.

I just think that we need to at least try to see things from Hasbro's perspective. Sure it would be nice to have an action figure of every single character who made an appearance onscreen, but that's simply not realistic from a business standpoint.

sebillba
04-11-2009, 02:09 AM
I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but I wondered if "N6" reminded people of a six-letter word starting with "n" . . . probably not, but who knows?

Seeing as Lucasfilm allowed such un-pc names as Plo Koon and Yarael Poof, I'm sure they're not sensitive enough to pick up on some hidden code in N6!

I was excited to see the photo of Clegg Holdfast, but I hope they improve the paint apps/colours on this, at the moment it looks more like something from Chicken Run!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-11-2009, 06:46 PM
Seeing as Lucasfilm allowed such un-pc names as Plo Koon and Yarael Poof, I'm sure they're not sensitive enough to pick up on some hidden code in N6!

I was excited to see the photo of Clegg Holdfast, but I hope they improve the paint apps/colours on this, at the moment it looks more like something from Chicken Run!
You're probably right on the names. It was just a thought.

It looks like Clegg was based on the lower-grade CGI model, seen here (http://www.starwars-union.de/lexikon/2100/Holdfast_Clegg/), as opposed to the one seen in the film, seen here (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/podracing/images//7/70/Clegg_holdfast_2.jpg). You can tell by the open mouth and wide-set nostrils.

Devo
04-12-2009, 01:40 AM
Not that I'm bothered too much about the particular characters requested in the Q but does anyone wonder why Lucas and/or Lucasfilm gives a flying so&so if Hasbro make a wookie Jedi figure? Fair enough legal issues preventing the Tonnikas - I can cope with that what with there being plenty of other cantina characters that can be made - but why veto a character where legal issues do not come into play? Why is it important to lucasfilm what characters do and do not see action figure form at any one time? I seem to recall a number of occasions where Hasbro has said ''Lucasfilm didn't approve'' or they 'told us to change the name of that ewok''. I apologise if theres an obvious answer to this.

Cane_Adiss
04-12-2009, 09:21 AM
I'm not too happy about the answer to the Senator question. I was expecting that answer about Grebleips, I just wanted Hasbro to officially address it. A couple of those Senator characters have been on past rumor lists @ rebelscum so we should see the two females eventually I think. I'd really like to see Edcel and Mot Not Rab because we don't have figs of either of their species yet.

All of the questions were given good, if not exactly positive, answers this time around. It does seem that perhaps different employees write up the answers every round because this time it seems theres alot less irritation in the tone of the answers.

I'm sad we'll never see a Grebleips under the Star Wars line, but I'd like to track down one of those ET figs someone mentioned earlier.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-12-2009, 12:46 PM
Not that I'm bothered too much about the particular characters requested in the Q but does anyone wonder why Lucas and/or Lucasfilm gives a flying so&so if Hasbro make a wookie Jedi figure? Fair enough legal issues preventing the Tonnikas - I can cope with that what with there being plenty of other cantina characters that can be made - but why veto a character where legal issues do not come into play? Why is it important to lucasfilm what characters do and do not see action figure form at any one time? I seem to recall a number of occasions where Hasbro has said ''Lucasfilm didn't approve'' or they 'told us to change the name of that ewok''. I apologise if theres an obvious answer to this.
As I've said many times before, it seems to stem from Lucas not wanting to use Wookiee Jedi in ROTS so as to show regular Wookiee warriors fighting in their natural element. It seems to me like this attitude has extended over to other areas now, despite there being Wookiee Jedi previously. So this order likely comes from the top.

If anyone really cares, just give a lightsaber to a Wookiee figure and you're good to go.

Devo
04-12-2009, 01:55 PM
I know I read that post. I still don't know why it matters to him that a toy company issues a jedi wookie action figure. Would he lose sleep over it if it happened? Exactly what does Lucas have against wookies? They can't be jedis and they can't get medals!

Anyway, I don't care about a wookie jedi - its EU. But my point was - beyond legal issues with actors/deceased actors or crossovers with Universal Pictures/Spielbergian franchises, why do lucasfilm sometimes exercise a veto on characters to be made or insist on changes to in-production figures? Does it all go back to Lucas? Is that something thats on Lucas' schedule - to inspect what figures Hasbro want to put out in a given year? Is there some commitee at lucasfilm that sometimes goes to Lucas? What are their motivations? Why does it matter to them etc etc.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-12-2009, 03:59 PM
I know I read that post. I still don't know why it matters to him that a toy company issues a jedi wookie action figure. Would he lose sleep over it if it happened? Exactly what does Lucas have against wookies? They can't be jedis and they can't get medals!

Anyway, I don't care about a wookie jedi - its EU. But my point was - beyond legal issues with actors/deceased actors or crossovers with Universal Pictures/Spielbergian franchises, why do lucasfilm sometimes exercise a veto on characters to be made or insist on changes to in-production figures? Does it all go back to Lucas? Is that something thats on Lucas' schedule - to inspect what figures Hasbro want to put out in a given year? Is there some commitee at lucasfilm that sometimes goes to Lucas? What are their motivations? Why does it matter to them etc etc.
This stuff is mostly essentially up to Howard Roffman, the president of Lucas Licensing. I always assumed they just wanted to present the movies and characters a certain way (like how Lucasfilm nixed a figure set of Yoda stabbing a clone through the chest). That's just how it is. I suppose if you wanted a better answer you could pose the question in the Q&A thread.

Tycho
04-13-2009, 05:04 AM
Remember "Tales From The Mos Eisley Cantina" anthology?

I want a 2-pack of Wuher stuffing the dead Greedo into his blender to make a new kind of drink.

Do you think Lucasfilm will authorize that?

NerfTW
04-13-2009, 10:48 AM
I try very hard to forget that book. And the other two. :(

I don't think we'll ever get a real answer on the off-limits question. Because I seriously doubt Hasbro is hounding Lucas with "but whhhyyyyyyyyy?" when they say no. I did dig up this thread (http://www.darkhorse.com/Help/Boards/viewtopic.php?t=7257&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=467019c062ca4e794932a8578e722a2a) that I posted over in RebelScum, but all we hear about the wookie issue is "no more wookiees", with no explanation.


Smith, if that is his real name, asked:
Quote: Well, they had a Tusken Raider Jedi. Why not any more wookiees?


The "Tusken Raider" Jedi (Sharad Hett, I believe), and his Jedi son (A'Sharad Hett) turned out to actually be humans who had adopted the culture of Tuskens and lived with them.

There are a number of species, apparently, who either lack the ability to use the Force, or who lack the subtlety of thought necessary for Jedi training. Back when I was writing the Jedi Council series, I'd wanted to have a Jedi character of the same species as pod racer Dud Bolt (I can't remember the name of the species off-hand), but I was told that they're not smart enough to be Jedi. (So, I settled on whatever species Ratts Tyrell is. And that's how Jedi Master Tsui Choi was born.) anyway, the Tuskens, I've been told, aren't smart enough to use the Force. Neither are the Ewoks (sorry, Matt).

El Chuxter
04-13-2009, 01:48 PM
So one of the themes of Star Wars is supposed to be about acceptance of other cultures and equality and all that jazz, but they throw some pretty rank social darwinism (read: racism) into the mix.

Paging Mr Lucas, Mr George Lucas. The doctor is ready to extricate your head from you anus.

NerfTW
04-13-2009, 01:56 PM
Well, when you're talking about separate species, it's entirely believable that some could simply not be smart enough. In Star Trek, they have the Prime Directive that ensures any races encountered are intelligent, but in Star Wars, there's nothing stopping them from giving cavemen a few cars in exchange for food and supplies.

Tusken Raiders are never shown using anything more advanced than blaster rifles, which don't really take much intelligence to use. Same for Gammorean guards. A bipedal dog that can take simple orders is still just a guard dog.

JediTricks
04-13-2009, 02:53 PM
I've added the questions from other sites to the news.

JediDefender gives it to Hasbro with both barrels over the pricing problem, and a couple sites are told that the main line basic figures aren't selling well this year so we're going to see a dynamic shift and lose the TFU figures as basics, probably to show up as exclusives.


Oh, I certainly do NOT like the first answer. I can understand doing fewer senators or separatists, but "especially if the collector base rebounds" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's not our fault that they overproduced Yarna!Yeah, I agree here, and after seeing some more of this round's answers from other sites, it seems like they're really pushing the idea hard of us seeing a major scale-back on basics because of their misjudgements.


I can live with the U-3PO/R2-L3 answer. After looking it over, U-3PO's brassy color might actually be a reflection of C-3PO, since he looks silver when he's by himself but brassy next to C-3PO. I kinda wish I had stuck to my guns and not even asked this question, the answer was pretty much what we expected.


I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but I wondered if "N6" reminded people of a six-letter word starting with "n" . . . probably not, but who knows?IMO, that's a real stretch.


I thought they said just last round that they wouldn't do a spirit Luke. That's good news on the likelihood of the others, though.Not at all. Here's what they said in the previous round (Mar 20):
ThePrivateUniverse.co.uk: You have mentioned more Legacy comic packs coming, any chance we will be seeing the Ghost of Luke Skywalker or a Han Solo figure in one of the packs? I think that would be a great way to continue to tie the Legacy characters with the Original Trilogy.
Hasbro: We don't have plans for the ghost of Luke, but it is one that we really want to do at some point. No plans right now for a new Han, but that could change depending on what is in the new Dark Horse NJO-era comic.

They didn't say what the change is to Jango, but that sucks that it'll be another lilac one. At least it'll be corrected next year. It also sucks about that Grievous, but I wasn't really expecting them to use the 2008 version anyway.Yeah, that annoyed me, I want to know the change on Jango. Not surprised about Grievous at all.


I also wasn't really expecting a change on the Geonosis set. Eh, I guess I'll just have an absolute ton of pilots now.To be honest, that Evo figure's trooper helmet is really poor, the sculpt is weak and the top fin is not well-defined. Still, would have been nice to get the right guy.



Why is Tyvokka off limits? I can understand E.T. and such. But he's just a Wookiee Jedi.

I think some one asked about this one a while back and it got shut down big time. Something about Lucas not wanting Wookiee Jedis because it ruins his original vision of them a species or something. Despite there being at least one other Wookiee Jedi in the EU, Lobacca I think....So, I did a little research done, and it appears that it was answered not on a Hasbro Q&A, but in the Hyperspace section of SW.com, a members-only area (nice, huh?), that Lucas has put the kybosh on all further uses and mentions of Wookiee Jedi. Dark Horse bigwig Randy Stradley pecifically said he was told by Lucas no more of that, as part of a list of species not allowed to be used as Jedi.


Honestly, I think it would be best to just drop the issue of 'off limits' figures and stop hounding Hasbro about it. There are still plenty of OT figures left to be made or updated that could keep the line going for years. I could easily come up with a list of 25 figures that have never been immortalized in plastic, who don't fall into the off limits category and would make great ACTION figures, not just diorama filler.I really don't think a Jedi Wookiee figure would be just diorama filler, it'd make quite an action figure, but it wouldn't feel Star Wars to me either, it'd be like a Stormtrooper wielding a Lightsaber. ;) I could find semantic room to argue with Hasbro on this one, but the reality is that Lucas told 1 licensee this, so probably all of them got the same statement.



By the way, as far as EU characters getting multiple figures? How many figures is Quinlan Vos up to now? A'Sharad Hett (if you count Darth Kraayt)?2 each so far.



Same thing with "are you gonna make figures from the show in the realistic style" - they answer it all the damn time, and it's always no. Think up some new questions, people.Yeah, what the hell? That got answered out the wazoo a million times last year, and then I gather up the Qs today and there it is AGAIN!



You're probably right on the names. It was just a thought.

It looks like Clegg was based on the lower-grade CGI model, seen here (http://www.starwars-union.de/lexikon/2100/Holdfast_Clegg/), as opposed to the one seen in the film, seen here (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/podracing/images//7/70/Clegg_holdfast_2.jpg). You can tell by the open mouth and wide-set nostrils.The former link is not a CGI model, it's a drawing. And either way, I think this guy sucks and the figure looks ridiculous.



Not that I'm bothered too much about the particular characters requested in the Q but does anyone wonder why Lucas and/or Lucasfilm gives a flying so&so if Hasbro make a wookie Jedi figure? Fair enough legal issues preventing the Tonnikas - I can cope with that what with there being plenty of other cantina characters that can be made - but why veto a character where legal issues do not come into play? Why is it important to lucasfilm what characters do and do not see action figure form at any one time? I seem to recall a number of occasions where Hasbro has said ''Lucasfilm didn't approve'' or they 'told us to change the name of that ewok''. I apologise if theres an obvious answer to this.I actually agree with Lucas, the perception of Wookiees is vastly different from Jedi, they seem kinda different thinkers. Even seeing that robed Tyvokka looks bizarre to me. Lucas feels certain SW species wouldn't be believable as Jedi, such as Tuskens, Ewoks, Jawas, Vulptereen...

There are a number of species, apparently, who either lack the ability to use the Force, or who lack the subtlety of thought necessary for Jedi training. Back when I was writing the Jedi Council series, I'd wanted to have a Jedi character of the same species as pod racer Dud Bolt (I can't remember the name of the species off-hand), but I was told that they're not smart enough to be Jedi. (So, I settled on whatever species Ratts Tyrell is. And that's how Jedi Master Tsui Choi was born.) anyway, the Tuskens, I've been told, aren't smart enough to use the Force. Neither are the Ewoks (sorry, Matt).
[...]
As for Wookiee Jedi, we (I mean us editors at Dark Horse) heard that some guy named George decided there should not be (any more) Wookiee Jedi. There were a number of other species from which, we were also informed, no Jedi would be springing.

No biggee, really. If you want to know which species, just look at all of the known species in the galaxy, then substract those species from which Jedi have already been seen. Simple, no?That same discussion also had this image: http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/thumb/4/44/EwokJedi.JPG/654px-EwokJedi.JPG

Tycho
04-13-2009, 02:54 PM
This is why I cringe at the idea of a Gamorrean X-wing pilot.

Aaron Allston is usually a very good writer, but that may have been his worst idea (in Wraith Squadron I think).

DarkJedi5
04-13-2009, 06:00 PM
This is why I cringe at the idea of a Gamorrean X-wing pilot.

Aaron Allston is usually a very good writer, but that may have been his worst idea (in Wraith Squadron I think).

Well, it's not like he was a regular old Gamorrean, I mean hadn't he undergone some sort of scientific experiment that beefed up his smarts? Sure I don't know how you could do that but I don't know how a hyperdrive works either.

bigbarada
04-13-2009, 07:51 PM
Well, it's not like he was a regular old Gamorrean, I mean hadn't he undergone some sort of scientific experiment that beefed up his smarts? Sure I don't know how you could do that but I don't know how a hyperdrive works either.

Wow, that's even worse than just saying that he was born smarter than the average Gamorrean.

It's stuff like this that reminds me why I don't like EU.

Tycho
04-13-2009, 09:20 PM
You can't generalize about ALL EU BigB.

What's not cool about Mace Windu tracking a speederbike's trace to the building in which you saw Count Dooku land his solar sailor in E2 and finding secret passageways that link that building in The Works to 500 Republica, Palpatine's personal address? (Labrynth of Evil by James Luceno).

There are no smart Gamorreans in this book.

And by the way, speaking of racism, there are predictable ways in which members of certain cultures would behave - such as being quick to anger and act on their feelings impulsively, or commiting murder-suicides. Even in tolerance preaching Star Trek, Klingons behave a certain way and take pride in that being part of their culture.

Mad Slanted Powers
04-14-2009, 01:06 AM
If having a Wookiee Jedi is such a bad idea, why was it allowed in the first place? The Force resides in all of us, so I would think it would be possible, however unlikely, that someone from any sentient species could be a Jedi, or at least have some Force abilities.

DarkJedi5
04-14-2009, 02:02 AM
If having a Wookiee Jedi is such a bad idea, why was it allowed in the first place? The Force resides in all of us, so I would think it would be possible, however unlikely, that someone from any sentient species could be a Jedi, or at least have some Force abilities.

You know what was a dumb idea in the first place? Midichlorians. Notice how nobody said anything about them in AOTC or ROTS? Probably because some one told George how dumb it had been in the first place. If Anakin an be conceived by the Force, why can't a Wookiee be Force-sensitive?

Tycho
04-14-2009, 03:30 AM
You know what was a dumb idea in the first place? Midichlorians. Notice how nobody said anything about them in AOTC or ROTS? Probably because some one told George how dumb it had been in the first place. If Anakin an be conceived by the Force, why can't a Wookiee be Force-sensitive?

I don't think midichlorians was a bad idea. I like science in my fiction.

There has to be some kind of logical reason why some can sense the Force, and with the kind of advanced technology you see in the SW universe, you'd think that they'd test every possibility. There have been Jedi for over 5,000 years in that galaxy after all.

Second, I don't know if Anakin was really conceived by the midichlorians. I don't think they are sentient. They are just symbiotic life - basically like the cells in our body - which are also smaller forms of animal life combining to form us - the larger form of organic life. In any case, I took it to be suggested by Palpatine (in the opera scene) that Darth Plagueis was a scientist and knew Sith Alchemy, and could genetically engineer Anakin by experimenting on Shmi Skywalker obviously. She was a slave afterall, and perhaps Plagueis (by whatever was his real name) owned her before Gardulla the Hutt? There was that alien whom Anakin killed later (on Narshaada once he'd begun his training as a Jedi) who was a ferocious slaver, but Shmi might have been enslaved to Plagueis prior to that.

I also believe that Plagueis intended Anakin to replace Sidious (Palpatine) and that Palpatine found out about it, and banished or hid Shmi and her young son from Plagueis and then killed his Sith Master. The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis would make for an awesome novel!!! (James Luceno, the best SW author, was supposed to write it, but he came out with Millennium Falcon instead. I'm not sure what the story was behind that.)

Mad Slanted Powers
04-14-2009, 08:28 AM
You know what was a dumb idea in the first place? Midichlorians. Notice how nobody said anything about them in AOTC or ROTS? Probably because some one told George how dumb it had been in the first place. If Anakin an be conceived by the Force, why can't a Wookiee be Force-sensitive?
No, I didn't notice that because they were mentioned in ROTS.

NerfTW
04-14-2009, 08:38 AM
If having a Wookiee Jedi is such a bad idea, why was it allowed in the first place? The Force resides in all of us, so I would think it would be possible, however unlikely, that someone from any sentient species could be a Jedi, or at least have some Force abilities.

Because Lucas occasionally misses things. Do you think he can read EVERY book and comic that comes out every month? Occasionally things slip through the cracks.

As for Midi-chlorians, I think most people's problem is that they're taking the explanation given to a nine year old boy as THE scientific basis. Never mind that you normally would describe such a thing as "microscopic organisms living in your body" to someone that young. They aren't neccessarily sentient, just a means for someone to channel the force more than others. Just read the description as being dumbed down for a small child, and it's not as ludicrous sounding.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-14-2009, 12:40 PM
There's a recurring theme of symbiance in TPM - between the Naboo and the Gungans; between the Jedi and the Sith; between the midi-chlorians and the Force, and so on. That's the apparent reasoning from a filmmaking perspective, in my opinion. It reinforces what's going on in the rest of the film. There's no reason to mention them in AOTC; everybody already knows about them.

From an in-universe perspective, without the midi-chlorians, the Jedi would not be able to access the Force; it's not that the midi-chlorians are the Force, but rather a kind of middleman. In ROTS, Palpatine said, "He could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life," so that supports this notion. You'd think that after 25,000 years, they'd figure out a way to measure Jedi other than just feeling through the Force. I think that having more midi-chlorians just makes it easier to access and use the Force, or something, so some people (or species) are just more prone to it than others. In the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, anyway, it said that there are two schools of thought: the midi-chlorians create the Force (like Obi-Wan said, it's "created by all living things"), or the Force creates the midi-chlorians (to reach out to the Jedi). You can even see examples in the OT of people being more or less prone to it: "My father has it. I have it. And my sister has it." Also, Qui-Gon is a proponent of the so-called Living Force, so that may have something to do with his referring to the midi-chlorians more than other Jedi.

Beast
04-14-2009, 01:08 PM
There's a recurring theme of symbiance in TPM - between the Naboo and the Gungans; between the Jedi and the Sith; between the midi-chlorians and the Force, and so on. That's the apparent reasoning from a filmmaking perspective, in my opinion. It reinforces what's going on in the rest of the film. There's no reason to mention them in AOTC; everybody already knows about them.

From an in-universe perspective, without the midi-chlorians, the Jedi would not be able to access the Force; it's not that the midi-chlorians are the Force, but rather a kind of middleman. In ROTS, Palpatine said, "He could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life," so that supports this notion. You'd think that after 25,000 years, they'd figure out a way to measure Jedi other than just feeling through the Force. I think that having more midi-chlorians just makes it easier to access and use the Force, or something, so some people (or species) are just more prone to it than others. In the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, anyway, it said that there are two schools of thought: the midi-chlorians create the Force (like Obi-Wan said, it's "created by all living things"), or the Force creates the midi-chlorians (to reach out to the Jedi). You can even see examples in the OT of people being more or less prone to it: "My father has it. I have it. And my sister has it." Also, Qui-Gon is a proponent of the so-called Living Force, so that may have something to do with his referring to the midi-chlorians more than other Jedi.
Well said. People have really blown the whole Midi-Chlorians thing out of proportion.

Droid
04-14-2009, 01:18 PM
Double post.

Droid
04-14-2009, 01:19 PM
There's a recurring theme of symbiance in TPM - between the Naboo and the Gungans; between the Jedi and the Sith; between the midi-chlorians and the Force, and so on. That's the apparent reasoning from a filmmaking perspective, in my opinion. It reinforces what's going on in the rest of the film. There's no reason to mention them in AOTC; everybody already knows about them.

From an in-universe perspective, without the midi-chlorians, the Jedi would not be able to access the Force; it's not that the midi-chlorians are the Force, but rather a kind of middleman. In ROTS, Palpatine said, "He could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life," so that supports this notion. You'd think that after 25,000 years, they'd figure out a way to measure Jedi other than just feeling through the Force. I think that having more midi-chlorians just makes it easier to access and use the Force, or something, so some people (or species) are just more prone to it than others. In the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, anyway, it said that there are two schools of thought: the midi-chlorians create the Force (like Obi-Wan said, it's "created by all living things"), or the Force creates the midi-chlorians (to reach out to the Jedi). You can even see examples in the OT of people being more or less prone to it: "My father has it. I have it. And my sister has it." Also, Qui-Gon is a proponent of the so-called Living Force, so that may have something to do with his referring to the midi-chlorians more than other Jedi.

You do explain that well, but it undermines the fact that the Force was explained in a very approachable way that everyone could relate to in the original trilogy. Then the prequels mucked it up with a bunch of details and unnecessary jargon that took the wonder and beauty out of it. The original trilogy Force was something everyone got and understood and could relate to and then in the prequels George turned it into something that only the fanboys could discuss or would take the time to understand.

Kind of like all that Sifo-Dyas stuff. Most fans don't even know what was going on there. You have to cite about ten EU sources to get into who did what as far as the clones or who Sifo-Dyas was.

It's like they decided the prequels weren't supposed to make sense to the casual viewer.

Droid
04-14-2009, 01:24 PM
As for the actual Q&A, I don't know what this "collector rebounds" stuff is about. In reality, Hasbro is doing what they always do, focusing on kids and ignoring the collector whenever the kids are buying. So they make less collector stuff right now and act as though the collectors have lost interest. Here it is April and I have had the chance to buy one wave of Legacy figures this year. The waves are so spaced apart it is hard to be a collector right now even if I needed to "rebound". I get excited about a year's worth of figures only to discover that everything gets pushed back and half the year's figures will come out next year.

And it will be a self fulfilling prophecy; if they make less background characters because they don't think collectors are interested, collectors will buy less figures leading them to believe collectors are indeed uninterested. I have all the Hans and Vaders I need. If they don't make characters like Cliegg, cantina aliens, vintage figures not yet made in the modern line, and characters from Jabba's Palace, I'm pretty much done. Which would be OK. I really only need a handful of figures I truly want to call it a pretty complete line of toys.

I still say if we get all the figures we're promised this year I'll be stunned.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-14-2009, 02:33 PM
You do explain that well, but it undermines the fact that the Force was explained in a very approachable way that everyone could relate to in the original trilogy. Then the prequels mucked it up with a bunch of details and unnecessary jargon that took the wonder and beauty out of it. The original trilogy Force was something everyone got and understood and could relate to and then in the prequels George turned it into something that only the fanboys could discuss or would take the time to understand.

Kind of like all that Sifo-Dyas stuff. Most fans don't even know what was going on there. You have to cite about ten EU sources to get into who did what as far as the clones or who Sifo-Dyas was.

It's like they decided the prequels weren't supposed to make sense to the casual viewer.
I can meet you in the middle and say that I do wish they had, in addition to the midi-chlorian stuff, given a more spiritual explanation for the Force in TPM for those who will be watching the films in chronological order. We know that you can use it to push things, trick people, sedate people, that it can "guide" you (as through the planet core), that there are disturbances in it when bad things happen, and that Jedi can feel through it, which gives you a pretty good idea, but that's about it. They could have included a speech similar to what Obi-Wan said in ANH or Yoda said in ESB. But, as it is, you can still get a pretty good understanding of the Force from watching the prequels and then later hearing Obi-Wan and Yoda's take on it in the OT as well.

Do the midi-chlorians take anything away from the Force? To me, no. Again, though, I was seven when I saw the OT and nine when I saw TPM, so this aspect of it has almost always been with me and my understanding of the Force, whereas older fans like you had more time to get used to the spiritual-only aspect of it and have these notions that have stayed with you. I don't know how a johnny-come-lately would feel about it, but I think it wouldn't matter to him.

It's really not hard to understand, going from just the movies themselves. I think, yet again, the fans took it and misinterpreted Qui-Gon's words and blew the midi-chlorians out of proportion when perhaps they should have taken a more nonchalant attitude to it - accept and realize that this is one aspect of the Force, but not the entire Force, just as many Jedi seem to do. I don't know what casual viewers think of the midi-chlorians but I don't think they care much or at all about them since they really aren't too important. Do you really, truly believe that microscopic organisms that help you connect to the Force take that much away from the spiritual side of it? I know there's often a disconnect between science and religion in our own world, but that doesn't have to be so in Star Wars.

As to Sifo-Dyas, I feel like the EU made it more complicated than it needed to be. Just like the midi-chlorians, in the film, it's mentioned briefly, and then the fans kind of took it and ran with it. All you really need to know is that Palpatine was behind the creation of the army; this is revealed in ROTS, and the details are unimportant and irrelevant. I figured that he assumed the identity of Sifo-Dyas after killing him (due to the similar sounding names Sifo-Dyas and Sidious, especially since it Sifo-Dyas was originally going to be Sido-Dyas), but the EU has made it more complicated. Casual viewers know that Palpatine was behind the army and the war and thus likely don't care about who Sifo-Dyas was; that was just in there to make it more mysterious, which was a theme in AOTC, much like the symbiance in TPM (there's actually a lot of double identity stuff going on throughout the entire saga, I suppose). We know that, around the same time, Dooku left the Jedi Order, Sifo-Dyas was killed, and the clone army was created. We also learn that Kamino was removed from the archives by a Jedi, that Dooku has joined Palpatine on the dark side, and that the clones were part of Palpatine's plan to kill the Jedi. I think the casual viewer can connect the dots.

Droid
04-14-2009, 02:43 PM
I don't know what casual viewers think of the midi-chlorians but I don't think they care much or at all about them since they really aren't too important.

As to Sifo-Dyas, I feel like the EU made it more complicated than it needed to be. Just like the midi-chlorians, in the film, it's mentioned briefly, and then the fans kind of took it and ran with it. All you really need to know is that Palpatine was behind the creation of the army; this is revealed in ROTS, and the details are unimportant and irrelevant. I figured that he assumed the identity of Sifo-Dyas after killing him (due to the similar sounding names Sifo-Dyas and Sidious, especially since it Sifo-Dyas was originally going to be Sido-Dyas), but the EU has made it more complicated. Casual viewers know that Palpatine was behind the army and the war and thus likely don't care about who Sifo-Dyas was; that was just in there to make it more mysterious, which was a theme in AOTC, much like the symbiance in TPM (there's actually a lot of double identity stuff going on throughout the entire saga, I suppose). We know that, around the same time, Dooku left the Jedi Order, Sifo-Dyas was killed, and the clone army was created. We also learn that Kamino was removed from the archives by a Jedi, that Dooku has joined Palpatine on the dark side, and that the clones were part of Palpatine's plan to kill the Jedi. I think the casual viewer can connect the dots.

I think casual viwers heard midi-chlorians and would read what you just wrote about Sifo-Dyas and say, "Huh?" Lucas' fault, not yours.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-14-2009, 02:47 PM
Though they're stupid, the general public isn't completely retarded. :D

DarkJedi5
04-14-2009, 04:50 PM
I guess I always just like the force as being a more spiritual connection to the galaxy as opposed to something that is simply explained away by science. If I got a Jedi blood transfusion am I suddenly Force sensitive?

pbarnard
04-14-2009, 04:56 PM
I guess I always just like the force as being a more spiritual connection to the galaxy as opposed to something that is simply explained away by science. If I got a Jedi blood transfusion am I suddenly Force sensitive?


For that moment, maybe. But you'll have none of their control, insight or training. Not to mention you replace blood and remove foreign things from it constantly. :thumbsup:

Beast
04-14-2009, 04:59 PM
I guess I always just like the force as being a more spiritual connection to the galaxy as opposed to something that is simply explained away by science. If I got a Jedi blood transfusion am I suddenly Force sensitive?
It's still spiritual. It's just a technological means of the Jedi Order finding force sensitive indiviuals.

Some Jedi's have different beliefs about the Midis, such as Qui-Gon's beliefs.

El Chuxter
04-14-2009, 06:01 PM
The fact that it can be debated like this as if it were a real-life thing shows how convoluted and silly the whole mess is.

JediTricks
04-14-2009, 06:10 PM
I'm not liking this trend away from the TLC line (soon to just be the "LC" line). First it was Titaniums, now we're seeing this, it's like Hasbro SW is slowly closing shop.



If having a Wookiee Jedi is such a bad idea, why was it allowed in the first place? The Force resides in all of us, so I would think it would be possible, however unlikely, that someone from any sentient species could be a Jedi, or at least have some Force abilities.Didn't get up the chain of command fast enough, I guess. Lucas didn't pass that info down through Lucas Licensing before the first 2 or 3 were created.

Just because some people can juggle doesn't mean everybody with hands can juggle.



Well said. People have really blown the whole Midi-Chlorians thing out of proportion.That is because midichlorians blow.


Midichlorians and Sifo-dyas were lent too much credibility in the prequels, the former is a messy and unsatisfying explanation of how they use the Force and how Anakin was created by it ( :rolleyes: ) while the latter is a red herring that Lucas said was just a name Dooku used and was "obvious" despite it bringing up problems in the timeline either way and then also was made confusing by extraneous dialog about a character we'd never meet or have properly explained.

bigbarada
04-14-2009, 08:38 PM
while the latter is a red herring that Lucas said was just a name Dooku used and was "obvious" despite it bringing up problems in the timeline either way and then also was made confusing by extraneous dialog about a character we'd never meet or have properly explained.

People are way too forgiving of the whole Sifo-Dyas mess simply because it's a Star Wars film. Could you imagine if a great film like L.A. Confidential had never once explained onscreen who Rollo Tomasi was and just left it for the audience to figure out on their own time? I can guarantee it wouldn't have won an Oscar, that's for sure.

Beast
04-14-2009, 08:41 PM
People are way too forgiving of the whole Sifo-Dyas mess simply because it's a Star Wars film. Could you imagine if a great film like L.A. Confidential had never once explained onscreen who Rollo Tomasi was and just left it for the audience to figure out on their own time? I can guarantee it wouldn't have won an Oscar, that's for sure.
Other than the fact that it's explained more than enough in the films.

bigbarada
04-14-2009, 08:45 PM
Other than the fact that it's explained more than enough in the films.

If by "more than enough" you mean "never." Then I agree. ;)

Beast
04-14-2009, 08:56 PM
If by "more than enough" you mean "never." Then I agree. ;)
Might want to watch them again. Cause it's pretty clear.

bigbarada
04-14-2009, 09:02 PM
Might want to watch them again. Cause it's pretty clear.

We're talking about Sifo-Dyas here right? It's not clear at all and I've seen the movies several times.

All we know is that he supposedly ordered the creations of the Clones, Obi-Wan seems to recognize the name and is under the impression that he was killed 10 years earlier. The only Force-user killed onscreen ten years prior to Ep2 (in SW universe time) is Darth Maul. So, Sifo-Dyas is Darth Maul?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-14-2009, 09:08 PM
Because the only person who could have possibly died in that entire year was Darth Maul. :rolleyes:

JediTricks
04-14-2009, 09:19 PM
People are way too forgiving of the whole Sifo-Dyas mess simply because it's a Star Wars film. Could you imagine if a great film like L.A. Confidential had never once explained onscreen who Rollo Tomasi was and just left it for the audience to figure out on their own time? I can guarantee it wouldn't have won an Oscar, that's for sure.Good comparison, very clean. It makes my other point about the timeline unnecessary (although it is still apt, how did the clones get ordered by Sifo Dyas before Maul was dead if there can be only 1 apprentice at a time?).

Mad Slanted Powers
04-14-2009, 09:42 PM
You all are missing the line that Obi-Wan said: "I was under the impression he was killed before then." Just based on what is in the movies we know that Jango said he was hired by Tyranus. We know that Sidious called Dooku, "Tyranus." In ROTS we learn that Palpatine/Sidious was behind the whole war. From all that you should be able to figure out that Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas and posed as him. That's all you really need to know. The EU explanation may be slightly different, but it doesn't really change the movies, and the assumption based on on-screen evidence works fine.

bigbarada
04-14-2009, 09:42 PM
Because the only person who could have possibly died in that entire year was Darth Maul. :rolleyes:

Well, going by Beast's explanation that it would be "pretty clear" to me if I watched the prequels again, that's only one of two conclusions. I forgot that Qui-Gonn Jinn also died onscreen in TPM. So only going off of onscreen clues given in the theatrical releases of the movies, Sifo-Dyas is either Qui-Gonn Jinn or Darth Maul?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-14-2009, 09:56 PM
Well, going by Beast's explanation that it would be "pretty clear" to me if I watched the prequels again, that's only one of two conclusions. I forgot that Qui-Gonn Jinn also died onscreen in TPM. So only going off of onscreen clues given in the theatrical releases of the movies, Sifo-Dyas is either Qui-Gonn Jinn or Darth Maul?
Hey, look, it's a straw man.


You all are missing the line that Obi-Wan said: "I was under the impression he was killed before then." Just based on what is in the movies we know that Jango said he was hired by Tyranus. We know that Sidious called Dooku, "Tyranus." In ROTS we learn that Palpatine/Sidious was behind the whole war. From all that you should be able to figure out that Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas and posed as him. That's all you really need to know. The EU explanation may be slightly different, but it doesn't really change the movies, and the assumption based on on-screen evidence works fine.
Exactly. I do think people need to rewatch the movies, or something, since clearly there's a disconnect between what actually happened in the films and what they thought happened.

Droid
04-14-2009, 09:59 PM
Might want to watch them again. Cause it's pretty clear.

What dialogue can you cite to for that proposition?

Ya, it's reeaalll clear, because they mention Sifo-Dyas all over the place in Episode II, not even being able to get straight within that film how long ago he died. We are told both it was nearly ten years ago and over ten years ago. They tell us Sifo-Dyas is on the Jedi Council and Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace clearly know who he is. It isn't just some fake name Dookus or Palpatine used. Then Sifo-Dyas is not mentioned one time in Episode III, not once. All we are told is "Palpatine was behind everything." Well no duh, we all knew that. But we aren't told who Sifo-Dyas was or how he fit into anything. You have to go to the EU for that. It is confusing to most fans. Any average moviegoer actually might have been better off I guess just thinking Sifo-Dyas was one of those Jedi Council guys they were never told the name of. Instead though I would assume during the Sifo-Dyas dialogue most moviegoers just heard pops and buzzes in their head because it was meaningless to them. Or worse, they just didn't care because the movie they were watching was of such decreased quality from the Star Wars films they were used to that they did not care who Sifo-Dyas was.

And there is nothing spiritual about the midi-chlorians. Ya, just take a faith blood test. Lucas set up something totally contrived for something that was unnecessary to tell the story. No one ever possibly would have cared how Anakin came to exist. That wasn't the story. And we already knew how the Jedi, and Obi-wan (not Qui-Gon) in particular chose their pupils. Obi-wan was amazed at how strongly the Force was with Anakin. Vader sensed the Force was strong in Luke at the trench battle without a blood test.

bigbarada
04-14-2009, 09:59 PM
Hey, look, it's a straw man.


Exactly. I do think people need to rewatch the movies, or something, since clearly there's a disconnect between what actually happened in the films and what they thought happened.

EDIT: Never mind, I can now see that you attributed one of MSP's posts to me.

Droid
04-14-2009, 10:04 PM
You all are missing the line that Obi-Wan said: "I was under the impression he was killed before then." Just based on what is in the movies we know that Jango said he was hired by Tyranus. We know that Sidious called Dooku, "Tyranus." In ROTS we learn that Palpatine/Sidious was behind the whole war. From all that you should be able to figure out that Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas and posed as him. That's all you really need to know. The EU explanation may be slightly different, but it doesn't really change the movies, and the assumption based on on-screen evidence works fine.

Don't you think the fact that this tiny group of people who are obsessed with these movies is having a debate about if it is too complicated means that it IS TOO COMPLICATED?!? What must NORMAL people think assuming they cared?

El Chuxter
04-14-2009, 10:18 PM
Rollo Tomassi needed no explanation. He is awesomeness personified.

Wherever he may be....

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-14-2009, 10:58 PM
EDIT: Never mind, I can now see that you attributed one of MSP's posts to me.
Yeah, oops. Fixed.


Don't you think the fact that this tiny group of people who are obsessed with these movies is having a debate about if it is too complicated means that it IS TOO COMPLICATED?!? What must NORMAL people think assuming they cared?
On the whole, you and bigbarada do not like the prequels; and on the whole, MSP, Beast, and I do. So we are not really ever going to see eye to eye on this. Perhaps we prequel fans are more forgiving of these things since we like the movies overall, and perhaps you guys are more harsh on these things since you don't like the movies overall?


Then Sifo-Dyas is not mentioned one time in Episode III, not once. All we are told is "Palpatine was behind everything." Well no duh, we all knew that. But we aren't told who Sifo-Dyas was or how he fit into anything.
Because, at the end of the day, it's irrelevant. Sifo-Dyas was just a pawn for Palpatine, much like a ton of other people - Darth Maul, Jar Jar Binks, Dooku, and so on. It's just an example of another person he used to his own advantage. I agree that it would have avoided this debate had they just mentioned Sifo-Dyas in ROTS, but I think it's fine the way it is, given all the evidence and clues spread throughout AOTC and ROTS. You don't, and wish it were spelled out more. Agree to disagree, yes?

Mad Slanted Powers
04-15-2009, 12:52 AM
MrJJL, was it you or Tycho that showed the movies to a newbie? Or both? What were their thoughts on Sifo-Dyas? My guess is that a casual viewer might forget about it or not think too much about it. It's because we are obsessive fans that we get caught up in all these details and are hoping for as much info as possible on everything. A lot of people were hoping for and expecting the mystery of Sifo-Dyas to be explained more explicitly. In the end, it was really no more than the explanations that have been provided here.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-15-2009, 01:09 AM
MrJJL, was it you or Tycho that showed the movies to a newbie? Or both? What were their thoughts on Sifo-Dyas? My guess is that a casual viewer might forget about it or not think too much about it. It's because we are obsessive fans that we get caught up in all these details and are hoping for as much info as possible on everything. A lot of people were hoping for and expecting the mystery of Sifo-Dyas to be explained more explicitly. In the end, it was really no more than the explanations that have been provided here.
I've watched it with newbies twice, and neither asked about Sifo-Dyas at all. When I watched it with my roommate recently, though, his girlfriend asked me to explain it since she figured I knew, and she has seen the films a few times before (she also didn't realize that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One as seen in the end of ROTJ, so she doesn't think about it or pay as much attention as you or I do). But to him, it was unimportant. I really do feel that, if you pay attention and connect the dots, it'll be clear to you.

clone157
04-15-2009, 01:10 AM
You know what was a dumb idea in the first place? Midichlorians. Notice how nobody said anything about them in AOTC or ROTS? Probably because some one told George how dumb it had been in the first place. If Anakin an be conceived by the Force, why can't a Wookiee be Force-sensitive?

The thing that hurt about midi-chlorians was that it said to us crazy fanboys, "You can't be a jedi yourself, you have to be born into them." That crushed many kids hopes, not that trying to use the force to bring down the cookie jar wouldn't either.


Same thing with "are you gonna make figures from the show in the realistic style" - they answer it all the damn time, and it's always no. Think up some new questions, people.

We all know the reason why they won't make them in the legacy collection, the animated stuff would not sell. It happened last time they did an animated line, and it would happen now. Just like the Titanium line, they are mis-diagnosing the problem, and blaming those that have stood by them for years.



I was excited to see the photo of Clegg Holdfast, but I hope they improve the paint apps/colours on this, at the moment it looks more like something from Chicken Run!

I just want to get one to customize to be Bomo Greenbark from the Dark Times comic.


Well, when you're talking about separate species, it's entirely believable that some could simply not be smart enough. In Star Trek, they have the Prime Directive that ensures any races encountered are intelligent, but in Star Wars, there's nothing stopping them from giving cavemen a few cars in exchange for food and supplies.


That's why I love Star Wars compared to Star Trek. Forget a Prime Directive, give the ewok a gun!

bigbarada
04-15-2009, 02:00 AM
I've watched it with newbies twice, and neither asked about Sifo-Dyas at all. When I watched it with my roommate recently, though, his girlfriend asked me to explain it since she figured I knew, and she has seen the films a few times before (she also didn't realize that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One as seen in the end of ROTJ, so she doesn't think about it or pay as much attention as you or I do). But to him, it was unimportant. I really do feel that, if you pay attention and connect the dots, it'll be clear to you.

I've never heard of any casual movie viewer who left the theater saying "so who was Sifo-Dyas again?" However, I've also never met a casual moviegoer who thinks the prequels are better or even as good as the original Star Wars films.

For most people I know, the prequels made absolutely no impression on them whatsoever. The only times they think about Star Wars is if their kids are into it in any way.

For people who want to like the prequels, then I guess the Sifo-Dyas issue is clear. However, I don't believe you can honestly say that it was dealt with properly when you judge the movie on it's own merits, without being predisposed to view it favorably.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-15-2009, 12:16 PM
I've never heard of any casual movie viewer who left the theater saying "so who was Sifo-Dyas again?" However, I've also never met a casual moviegoer who thinks the prequels are better or even as good as the original Star Wars films.

For most people I know, the prequels made absolutely no impression on them whatsoever. The only times they think about Star Wars is if their kids are into it in any way.

For people who want to like the prequels, then I guess the Sifo-Dyas issue is clear. However, I don't believe you can honestly say that it was dealt with properly when you judge the movie on it's own merits, without being predisposed to view it favorably.
If you don't like Star Wars in general, then of course you aren't going to like the prequels.

And, like I said, there's two sides to the coin. For people who are actively trying to not like the prequels, then they are going to actively try not to understand the Sifo-Dyas thing, as you have done multiple times throughout this thread.

NerfTW
04-15-2009, 01:01 PM
What WAS the rationale behind Sifo Dyas? I just assumed that Sifo-Dyas made a clone army for one reason or another, died at some point before contacting them, Palpatine found out about them, and lured Obi-wan to the planet to discover them so that they wouldn't get suspicious of the Chancellor suddenly taking over an army. And since the Jedi assumed Palpatine was on thier side, they never thought to make the army loyal to the council, so Palpatine was free to issue orders in secrecy.

I always assumed Dooku had no actual part in it, because if he did, there would have been a risk of a clone recognizing him and alerting the Jedi out of the mistaken belief that Dooku was working against Palpatine. (Remember, they had no idea the war was a sham. Order 66 was just there in case of a takeover by the Jedi. This "we knew we were going to betray them" crap wasn't required. They believed that the council moved against Palpatine)

bigbarada
04-15-2009, 01:02 PM
If you don't like Star Wars in general, then of course you aren't going to like the prequels.

And, like I said, there's two sides to the coin. For people who are actively trying to not like the prequels, then they are going to actively try not to understand the Sifo-Dyas thing, as you have done multiple times throughout this thread.

That's just the thing, if I didn't like the prequels then I wouldn't care enough to even complain about it.

For example, I have no clue if there are plot holes in the two Matrix sequels, because I watched each of them once, thought they were crap, and never bothered to watch them again.

Since I like the prequels, I've seen them several times on DVD and little things like never explaining who Sifo-Dyas was and plot dead ends (like the friendship between Yoda and Chewie that never went anywhere after Ep3) tend to stick out.

Maybe they could have sacrificed one of the "I love you"/"No love you more" exchanges between Anakin and Padme and devoted a couple of lines of dialog towards explaining Sifo-Dyas. Maybe the true nature of Sifo-Dyas and the Clones could have been discovered by Yoda ahead of time adding a bit of foreshadowing to their turn and explaining why he detected their intentions just in time to defend himself, when no other Jedi could.

Again, if I didn't like the movies, I wouldn't care enough to even bring this stuff up.

NerfTW
04-15-2009, 01:07 PM
explaining why he detected their intentions just in time to defend himself, when no other Jedi could.

Because he was on the outer rim, and felt the deaths through the force (including his good friends on the council) before the transmission reached the clones. You can't have instantaneous communication across a galaxy. It would have taken a few minutes to reach Yoda, and he was the only one shown who wasn't distracted at the moment (And therefore paying attention to the force)

bigbarada
04-15-2009, 01:18 PM
Because he was on the outer rim, and felt the deaths through the force (including his good friends on the council) before the transmission reached the clones. You can't have instantaneous communication across a galaxy. It would have taken a few minutes to reach Yoda, and he was the only one shown who wasn't distracted at the moment (And therefore paying attention to the force)

I understand that and it's clearly shown that Yoda is more powerful than just about every other Jedi, so it's plausible that he would be more in tune with the Force. However, my point was that they could have explained Sifo-Dyas and used that as a way to foreshadow the Clones' turn, while adding more suspense and urgency to the story. We all knew that the Clones were going to become Stormtroopers, so there was no need to try to keep it a surprise.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-15-2009, 01:36 PM
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, but they didn't. Take it for what it is and accept it; that's really all you can do. Would you have actually preferred a big monologue from Palpatine to explain it? Why would he need to explain it to anyone? The characters pieced together the evidence; most audience members were expected to do the same. It's not a plot hole; it's just you refusing to connect the dots.


What WAS the rationale behind Sifo Dyas? I just assumed that Sifo-Dyas made a clone army for one reason or another, died at some point before contacting them, Palpatine found out about them, and lured Obi-wan to the planet to discover them so that they wouldn't get suspicious of the Chancellor suddenly taking over an army. And since the Jedi assumed Palpatine was on thier side, they never thought to make the army loyal to the council, so Palpatine was free to issue orders in secrecy.

I always assumed Dooku had no actual part in it, because if he did, there would have been a risk of a clone recognizing him and alerting the Jedi out of the mistaken belief that Dooku was working against Palpatine. (Remember, they had no idea the war was a sham. Order 66 was just there in case of a takeover by the Jedi. This "we knew we were going to betray them" crap wasn't required. They believed that the council moved against Palpatine)
Did you even watch AOTC? Obi-Wan wasn't lured by Palpatine; he traced Jango's Kamino saber dart back to its source and accidentally stumbled onto the army. That wasn't supposed to happen. And of course Dooku had a part in it - his Sith name is Darth Tyranus, and Jango said he was hired "by a man called Tyranus". The rationale behind Sifo-Dyas was that the army was supposedly created by a Jedi for the Republic, so that would be the story if anyone asked, and Palpatine could assume a sort of "well, might as well use this army that was lying around" approach to it in public when in reality he was behind it to bring about the destruction of the Jedi and the revenge of the Sith.

DarkJedi5
04-15-2009, 01:43 PM
Interestingly enough the wookieepedia (and I know that it's got a good deal of nonsense but bear with me here) on Sifo-Dyas mentions the two hot button issues in this thread. Number one here's his two paragraph bio:


Sifo-Dyas was once a good friend of fellow Master Dooku, and had the gift of precognition. He predicted the coming war, and knew the Galactic Republic would soon face dark times.

Sifo-Dyas secretly commissioned a clone army on Kamino, ostensibly to defend the Republic. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends. As a final test of his allegiance to the dark side of the Force, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and took control of the project for himself. It was Sidious' true intention to use Sifo-Dyas only as a dead-end cover for Palpatine's order of a clone army.

Later it goes on to tell how his body was preserved after his death and when building General Grievous into his cyborg incarnation Sifo-Dyas' blood was used for a transfusion for Grievous but none of his Force-sensitivity seemed to remain with Grievous. I don't understand though why it had to be Jedi blood though....

NerfTW
04-15-2009, 02:03 PM
Did you even watch AOTC? Obi-Wan wasn't lured by Palpatine; he traced Jango's Kamino saber dart back to its source and accidentally stumbled onto the army. That wasn't supposed to happen. And of course Dooku had a part in it - his Sith name is Darth Tyranus, and Jango said he was hired "by a man called Tyranus". The rationale behind Sifo-Dyas was that the army was supposedly created by a Jedi for the Republic, so that would be the story if anyone asked, and Palpatine could assume a sort of "well, might as well use this army that was lying around" approach to it in public when in reality he was behind it to bring about the destruction of the Jedi and the revenge of the Sith.

Ah, I haven't watched it in years. I think I've only seen it three times since it came out. For some reason I forgot about the Tyranus revelation. Also, I was under the impression the assassination was intended to fail and lure Obi-wan to the planet. I tend not to think to hard about Palpatine's plan, just because I'm more interested in how what we saw in the prequels affects our view of Vader's actions in the Originals.

DarkJedi5
04-15-2009, 02:16 PM
I don't think the assassinations were meant to fail just get Padme out of the way and put the easily influenced Jar Jar in a position or importance, but Palaptine being good at making something out of nothing is able to get Padme out of the way by getting her to go into hiding with Anakin. I think letting Obi-Wan doscover the Clone Army suited him but he'd have had some one else stumble upon them anyway.

Darth Metalmute
04-15-2009, 02:25 PM
I thought everyone knew that Sifo-Dyas was actually Greystash. Right after he defeated Maluicious Krubb and saved Angelica Button, he went to Star Wars land to fight Star Wars. Palpatine knew who Grastash really was and tricked Greystash into becoming his ears on the Jedi Council under the name Sifo-Dyas. Palpatine warned him of a great threat and told Greystash that he would need to bring the rebublic a grand army. Greystash commissioned the army only to find out he was betrayed by Palpatine. Palpatine then had Greystash assassinated to prevent him from speaking out against him.

JediTricks
04-15-2009, 02:42 PM
You all are missing the line that Obi-Wan said: "I was under the impression he was killed before then." Just based on what is in the movies we know that Jango said he was hired by Tyranus. We know that Sidious called Dooku, "Tyranus." In ROTS we learn that Palpatine/Sidious was behind the whole war. From all that you should be able to figure out that Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas and posed as him. That's all you really need to know. The EU explanation may be slightly different, but it doesn't really change the movies, and the assumption based on on-screen evidence works fine.Actually, the script was written with Dyas being a name no Jedi had ever heard before, and a pseudonym for Darth Sidious. It was only late rewrites which changed this thread and left it dangling, attributing it to Dooku despite a complete failure of the timeline (Dooku not being a Sith at the time this all happened). The as-shot version of the film focused heavily on the guy despite zero payoff later, it would have been better to toss all that junk out and just stick with a more vague "some guy we haven't heard of before". Nothing actually points to Dooku killing a Jedi and taking his name for this. Bottom line, there's nothing "clear" about this mess at all, it's convoluted, lent too much screen discussion, and left dangling rather than paid off... it's a big question mark asking you to draw your own conclusion because Lucas hadn't written it based on an established backstory but just shooting from the hip.

Here's how the script was before, every mention of Dyas:

OBI-WAN
(improvising)
That is... good news.

LAMA SU
Please tell your Master Sido-Dyas
that we have every confidence his
order will be met on time and in
full. He is well, I hope?

OBI-WAN
I'm sorry Master - ?

LAMA SU
Jedi Master Sido-Dyas. He's still
a leading member of the Jedi
Council, is he not?

OBI-WAN
Oh, yes. Sido-Dyas.

[...]

LAMA SU
A bounty hunter called Jango Fett.
We felt a Jedi would be the
perfect choice, but Sido-Dyas hand-
picked Jango Fett himself.

[...]

LAMA SU
Oh yes, it's essential.
Otherwise, a mature clone would
take a lifetime to grow. Now, we
can do it in half the time. Those
items you saw on the parade ground
were started ten years ago, when
Sido-dyas first placed the order,
and they're already mature...

[...]

OBI-WAN
(carefully)
Tell me, prime minister, when my
Master Sido-dyas first contacted
you, did he say the order was
for... himself... or?

LAMA SU
Himself? Of course not. This
army is for the Republic?

OBI-WAN
(astonished)
The Republic?

LAMA SU
We are also very much against this
Count Dooku and his secessionist
movement. We are proud to be of
help to the Republic.

[...]

EXT. TIPOCA CITY LANDING PLATFORM, JEDI FIGHTER, (RAINSTORM) - LATE DAY
ARFOUR BEEPS and WHISTLES. The panels light up inside the cockpit, as the message is transmitted.

EXT. JEDI TEMPLE, LIVINF QUARTERS - EARLY EVENING
YODA and MACE WINDU listen as a hologram of OBI-WAN stands between them broadcasting the massage. The signal is very weak, the image fades in and out.

OBI-WAN (V.O.)
...I've never heard of a Jedi
called Sido-Dyas, have you, Master?

MACE WINDU
No. Whoever placed that order was
not a Jedi, I can assure you.

OBI-WAN (V.O.)
I have a strong feeling that this
bounty hunter is the assassin
we're looking for.

YODA
Who he is working for... discover
that, you must.

OBI-WAN (V.O.)
I will, Master, and I will also
find out more about this clone
army... May The Force...

The hologram switches off, and OBI-WAN fades away.

WINDU
A clone army! Ordered by someone
in the Senate perhaps... Someone's
out to start a war.

YODA
Inform the chancellor of this, we
must.

WINDU
Who do you think this impostor
Sido-Dyas, could be?

YODA stares back at MACE WINDU, then slowly shakes his head.

{JT's aside: notice the foreshadowing here, Mace mentions the chancellor and then immediately it's all "who is Sido-Dyas?"}

[...]

OBI-WAN
Then you must know Master Sido-
Dyas?

JANGO
Boba, close the door.

BOBA FETT moves to close the bedroom door. JANGO FETT smiles thinly at OBI-WAN.

JANGO
(continuing)
Master who?

OBI-WAN
Sido-Dyas. Isn’t he the Jedi who
hired you for this job?

JANGO
Never heard of him. I was
recruited by a man called Darth
Tyranus on one of the moons of
Bogden.

OBI-WAN
No? I thought...

TAUN WE
Sido-Dyas told us to expect him.
And he showed up just when your
Jedi Master said he would. We
have kept the Jedi’s involvement
a secret until your arrival, just
as your Master requested.

OBI-WAN
Curious...

{JT's aside: it's made clear in that passage that Sido-Dyas chose Jango, but did not engage his services directly, instead using an intermediary, Tyranus, to hire the bounty hunter. Even Taun We knew of that arrangement.}

That's everything the script had on Sido-Dyas. So clearly, Dooku wasn't intended to be Dyas, and since nothing in the final version actually contradicts anything here except that Sifo-Dyas was an actual Jedi who died some time ago before the clones were ordered, we can then see that it was in fact Palpatine who was the original impostor, not Dooku. Maybe that's not how Lucas rewrote it to be, but certainly there is no remote instance of clarity found in the finished product.



Exactly. I do think people need to rewatch the movies, or something, since clearly there's a disconnect between what actually happened in the films and what they thought happened.Don't blame the people finding fault with it, it's Lucas to blame for this mess, he's the one with the incomprehensible rewrite that makes little sense, doesn't fit the timeline, and leaves the plot thread dangling with no promised payoff in the 3rd film.


On the whole, you and bigbarada do not like the prequels; and on the whole, MSP, Beast, and I do. So we are not really ever going to see eye to eye on this. Perhaps we prequel fans are more forgiving of these things since we like the movies overall, and perhaps you guys are more harsh on these things since you don't like the movies overall?That's cheap, specious arguing, you are putting the cart before the horse. You guys are forgiving the poor storytelling of the prequels, while that same poor storytelling is what causes others to dislike them.


Because, at the end of the day, it's irrelevant. Sifo-Dyas was just a pawn for Palpatine, much like a ton of other people - Darth Maul, Jar Jar Binks, Dooku, and so on. It's just an example of another person he used to his own advantage. I agree that it would have avoided this debate had they just mentioned Sifo-Dyas in ROTS, but I think it's fine the way it is, given all the evidence and clues spread throughout AOTC and ROTS. You don't, and wish it were spelled out more. Agree to disagree, yes?If it's irrelevant, then the movie is at fault for placing too much emphasis on the whole matter instead of making it clear to the audience what was going on, or properly leading them down the path of surprise to finding out what was going on later. If Lucas had stuck to "there's no guy named Sido-Dyas in the Jedi order", that would have been fine, but instead he got all convoluted about Sifo-Dyas not being on the council but being a Jedi who died before Dooku was a Sith and so on and so on.



Coulda, woulda, shoulda, but they didn't. Take it for what it is and accept it; that's really all you can do. Would you have actually preferred a big monologue from Palpatine to explain it? Why would he need to explain it to anyone? The characters pieced together the evidence; most audience members were expected to do the same. It's not a plot hole; it's just you refusing to connect the dots.Actually, that would have worked great in Ep 3. Once Palpatine was revealed and admitting to being a Sith, he could have thrown the Jedi's arrogance and foolish blindness back in their faces and contended Sith superiority with a little nasty speech about how he was able to order this clone army and manufacture the whole conflict to prove how useless the Jedi truly were to the galaxy, they could never do what the Republic truly needed when the Sith could.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-15-2009, 04:10 PM
Don't blame the people finding fault with it, it's Lucas to blame for this mess, he's the one with the incomprehensible rewrite that makes little sense, doesn't fit the timeline, and leaves the plot thread dangling with no promised payoff in the 3rd film.
There were questions about what happened and comments to the effect of there not being enough evidence to connect the dots, but much of this was due to people not remembering the movie (look at NerfTW, though he posted after I wrote that). It works for me. The only "not fitting the timeline" thing I can think of is Obi-Wan saying Sifo-Dyas was killed "almost ten years ago" and then later saying he thought he was killed over ten years ago, but I always chalk that up to Obi-Wan's faulty memory. If you're talking about Dooku not yet being a Sith when Sifo-Dyas was killed or when the clone army was ordered, I think that can be attributed to the fact that the Sith usually have a person in place for when they want to bump off their master or whatever, so perhaps this was a case of the opposite; Sidious was only using Maul as a bulldog, so maybe he was also trying to lure Dooku while Maul was still alive, much as he did with Anakin while Dooku was still alive (I always assumed that Sidious was raising Maul while he was still Plagueis' apprentice, and there's also Dooku training Ventress and both Vader and Palpatine wanting to turn Luke to replace the other, so it's nothing new). There's been nothing specifically that said Dooku left after Qui-Gon died, is there? I don't know.


That's cheap, specious arguing, you are putting the cart before the horse. You guys are forgiving the poor storytelling of the prequels, while that same poor storytelling is what causes others to dislike them.
No, that's me trying to be accommodating and trying to end this; you calling my words cheap and specious is a personal attack, which we shouldn't have to put up with from moderators, but that is too much to ask around here sometimes. Again, I was just saying that to me, it's not a problem; it's not poor storytelling in my eyes, even though I recognize how it is in yours.


Actually, that would have worked great in Ep 3. Once Palpatine was revealed and admitting to being a Sith, he could have thrown the Jedi's arrogance and foolish blindness back in their faces and contended Sith superiority with a little nasty speech about how he was able to order this clone army and manufacture the whole conflict to prove how useless the Jedi truly were to the galaxy, they could never do what the Republic truly needed when the Sith could.
He already threw their "arrogance and foolish blindness back in their faces" by having the army that they blindly accepted shoot them in the backs and kill them, which was a little bit more effective than a speech. I mean, he did convey this in the conversation he had with Yoda before they dueled, and the audience is smart enough to figure out that Palpatine was behind everything, what with him telling the clones to execute Order 66 and Obi-Wan's line about Palpatine, y'know, being behind everything. And you, of all people, asking for more dialogue here . . . is that what you really want? ;) :p

Droid
04-15-2009, 04:27 PM
I guess the thing I get hung up on is that Obi-wan says in Attack of the Clones BOTH that Sifo-Dyas died nearly (meaning not quite) ten years ago and OVER ten years ago. If it is not quite ten years ago that Sifo-Dyas died then shouldn't we know about Sifo-Dyas? We knew who the Council was in Episode I and the EU said who they were replaced by. Poof and Yaddle were replaced with Shaak Ti and Coleman Trebor. There was no Sifo-Dyas in there. Of course, an EU flaw doesn't mean a film plot flaw. I guess that Yaddle or Poof could have been named Sifo-Dyas. I guess it could be Dyas wasn't on the Council at all and Lama Su was wrong, but the EU does claim that Dyas was on the Council.

If Sifo-Dyas died over ten years ago, then as JediTricks claims, you can't have Dooku involved because he wasn't a Sith yet, so Jango's comments that Tyranus recruited him don't make sense.

The films suggest that Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi because Obi-wan knows who he is and talks to Yoda and Mace about it. The films imply that Dooku was the one who ordered the army, not Palpatine, because of Jango's line about Tyranus.

I think it is totally unclear to the audience when Sifo-Dyas died, how he died, if he really ordered the clones or if it was someone posing as him.

Based solely on the films, did Sifo-Dyas, Dooku, or Palpatine go to Kamino and order the clones?

Also, isn't it all a little weird that Sifo-Dyas is the guy's name? JediTricks makes it clear that it was originally intended to just be an alias used by Sidious (and a darn clever one at that! Honestly, why not just go by Sidious since that was itself an alias?) No, using Sifo-Dyas as the person's name leads the viewer to further unanswered questions. Was there a real Sifo-Dyas or is Sifo-Dyas just Palpatine? Which further begs the question? When Sifo-Dyas sat on the Jedi Council was it Palpatine in disguise?

It's just a mystery that isn't answered that is so meaningless it should have never been a part of it, but they spent a lot of time on it to never resolve it. Kind of like the midi-chlorians again. Palpatine created Anakin? Really? Is that a possibility or is that true?

And since you bring up the rule of two business, I have said this before. Having only two Sith is stupid and it was limiting. But it was the rule. But everyone always wants to get around it every five minutes by having either the apprentice get his own apprentice or having the master actually having several sub-apprentices that might replace the main apprentice. Look, I understand it is cool to have as many people as possible running around with red lightsabers, but that wasn't the rule. And I think you can't say that at the time of Phantom Menace Palpatine had Dooku and Maul as a means to explain the flaw in Sifo-Dyas dying before Phantom Menance bet you Dooku being the one recruting Jango.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-15-2009, 04:58 PM
I guess the thing I get hung up on is that Obi-wan says in Attack of the Clones BOTH that Sifo-Dyas died nearly (meaning not quite) ten years ago and OVER ten years ago. If it is not quite ten years ago that Sifo-Dyas died then shouldn't we know about Sifo-Dyas. We knew who the Council was in Episode I and the EU said who they were replaced by. Poof and Yaddle were replaced with Shaak Ti and Coleman Trebor. There was no Sifo-Dyas in there. Of course, an EU doesn't mean a film plot flaw. I guess that Yaddle or Poof could have been named Sifo-Dyas. I guess it could be Dyas wasn't on the Council at all and Lama Su was wrong, but the EU does claim that Dyas was on the Council.

If Sifo-Dyas died over ten years ago, then as JediTricks claims, you can't have Dooku involved because he wasn't a Sith yet, so Jango's comments that Tyranus recruited him don't make sense.

The films suggest that Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi because Obi-wan knows who he is and talks to Yoda and Mace about it. The films imply that Dooku was the one who ordered the army, not Palpatine, because of Jango's line about Tyranus.
I feel that these are all valid concerns. I tend to think that Sifo-Dyas must have been on the Council before TPM, and that Obi-Wan was unsure of remembering how everything went down around that time (hence the "almost" and "before" lines).

Like I said in my other post, perhaps Dooku had started his turn away from the Jedi and towards the Sith while Maul was still alive. I really don't know how his timeline goes as far as this, and then the Separatist movement - was that all him, or was Sidious in on it from the beginning? Anyway, I think that the order for the army was placed before Jango was involved, so Sifo-Dyas or Palpatine or Dooku or whoever placed the order, said it was for the Republic, and later brought in Jango to be involved (I think some of this is covered in the Bounty Hunter video game, where Dooku pits bounty hunters against each other to see who's the best and therefore who will be the template).

Here's a thought - since Obi-Wan was bluffing his way through the conversation with Lama Su to make it look like he knew what was going on, when he said, "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed, almost ten years ago," isn't it possible that this line was itself also a way to keep bluffing? I'm not sure, but it's perhaps one way of looking at it.


I think it is totally unclear to the audience when Sifo-Dyas died, how he died, if he really ordered the clones or if it was someone posing as him.

Based solely on the films, did Sifo-Dyas, Dooku, or Palpatine go to Kamino and order the clones?
Based solely on the films, I cannot say. What we need to know is that Palpatine used the army for his own purposes, and so we assume that he was behind the creation as well. The details are left mysterious and murky - for some, too much so.


Also, isn't it all a little weird that Sifo-Dyas is the guy's name? JediTricks makes it clear that it was originally intended to just be an alias used by Sidious (and a darn clever one at that! Honestly, why not just go by Sidious since that was itself an alias?) No, using Sifo-Dyas as the person's name leads the viewer to further unanswered questions. Was there a real Sifo-Dyas or is Sifo-Dyas just Palpatine? Which further begs the question? When Sifo-Dyas sat on the Jedi Council was it Palpatine in disguise?
When I initially saw AOTC, I assumed that Sifo-Dyas was a real guy since Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace clearly knew him, but since his name sounded like Sidious, and Obi-Wan's hologram broke up a bit while saying the name to perhaps accentuate this fact, I figured there was a connection there. I thought it was a coincidence to perhaps lead the audience to realize that Sidious was involved, but not to have them confuse the two. I never got the impression that Sifo-Dyas was just an alias of Sidious, since, like I said, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace recognized the name. And I think the Jedi Council would have recognized Palpatine if he was posing as a Jedi.


It's just a mystery that isn't answered that is so meaningless it should have never been a part of it, but they spent a lot of time on it to never resolve it. Kind of like the midi-chlorians again. Palpatine created Anakin? Really? Is that a possibility or is that true?
So there's something wrong with there being mystery in Star Wars? The mystery is a big aspect of Obi-Wan's story in AOTC, what with him trying to trace the toxic dart and looking for clues and being thrown off the trail and so on (such as Dooku actually outright telling him about Sidious). Maybe Lucas overdid it? I don't think so.

As to Anakin's conception, I think we're led to believe that Plagueis or Sidious created Anakin, but we're not outright told, and it still hasn't been directly addressed in any of the EU as anything other than a possibility. Lucas nixed a book on Darth Plagueis because he wanted there to still be some sort of mystery in SW. So, really, it's up to the individual to decide.

DarkJedi5
04-15-2009, 05:05 PM
We knew who the Council was in Episode I and the EU said who they were replaced by. Poof and Yaddle were replaced with Shaak Ti and Coleman Trebor. There was no Sifo-Dyas in there. Of course, an EU doesn't mean a film plot flaw. I guess that Yaddle or Poof could have been named Sifo-Dyas. I guess it could be Dyas wasn't on the Council at all and Lama Su was wrong, but the EU does claim that Dyas was on the Council.


Not like it's going to change anyone's minds but I'm under the impression that there were four Jedi councils (there are five spires on the temple at Coruscant but I guess the center one is a book depository); the high council (that's where we find Yoda, Mace, Ki-Adi, etc.) then the other three; first knowledge, reconciliation, and reassignment. Just sayin that Sifo-Dyas could have been on a council, just not THE council.

Mad Slanted Powers
04-15-2009, 05:52 PM
It's just a mystery that isn't answered that is so meaningless it should have never been a part of it, but they spent a lot of time on it to never resolve it.That's the thing. I don't think they did spend a lot of time on it. Obi-Wan finds out about it, asks the Yoda and Mace about it, but that's it. By the end of the movie, they realize that Dooku is a Sith, and they seem him there with Jango. The EU explanation may be convoluted, but what is on-screen pretty much points to what I and Mr.JJL have been saying.

Same thing with the timeline not lining up. There isn't anything in the movie that spells out explicitly to the day how long it has been, and nothing that says when Dooku left the order and became a Sith. I'm also not to attached to the rule of two thing, because as soon as Maul was dead, that would mean the rule was broken unless there was someone ready to step in right that instant.

JediTricks
04-16-2009, 01:55 PM
There were questions about what happened and comments to the effect of there not being enough evidence to connect the dots, but much of this was due to people not remembering the movie (look at NerfTW, though he posted after I wrote that). It works for me. The only "not fitting the timeline" thing I can think of is Obi-Wan saying Sifo-Dyas was killed "almost ten years ago" and then later saying he thought he was killed over ten years ago, but I always chalk that up to Obi-Wan's faulty memory. If you're talking about Dooku not yet being a Sith when Sifo-Dyas was killed or when the clone army was ordered, I think that can be attributed to the fact that the Sith usually have a person in place for when they want to bump off their master or whatever, so perhaps this was a case of the opposite; Sidious was only using Maul as a bulldog, so maybe he was also trying to lure Dooku while Maul was still alive, much as he did with Anakin while Dooku was still alive (I always assumed that Sidious was raising Maul while he was still Plagueis' apprentice, and there's also Dooku training Ventress and both Vader and Palpatine wanting to turn Luke to replace the other, so it's nothing new). There's been nothing specifically that said Dooku left after Qui-Gon died, is there? I don't know.There isn't enough evidence to connect the dots, I am remembering it quite clearly, and as my counter-evidence shows, your side's claims that it's "obvious it was Dooku" goes out the window when the script proves it was Sidious who did the ordering, not Dooku, and that aspect isn't negated by the shooting dialogue. In fact, I'd say the script's version is more interesting, and although it's convoluted, it makes sense - Sidious ordered the clones before choosing the bounty hunter, and had an intermediary perform all the contact with the bounty hunter.

The movie dialogue doesn't fit the timeline because Sifo-dyas and the ordering of the clones happened just over 10 years ago, which puts it before TPM and thus before Maul's death. Dooku pulling off a big Sith job would mean he was more in Sidious' pocket than Anakin was, and having him go by the name Tyranus as Jango said means Dooku was already a Sith when Jango was brought in. You can play the "maybe" game all day and night, but if you have to go there, it means you have to fill in the blanks which means the story itself has those holes and leaps in logic.


No, that's me trying to be accommodating and trying to end this; you calling my words cheap and specious is a personal attack, which we shouldn't have to put up with from moderators, but that is too much to ask around here sometimes. Again, I was just saying that to me, it's not a problem; it's not poor storytelling in my eyes, even though I recognize how it is in yours.You just said it yourself, I described what you SAID, not who you ARE. How is that a "personal attack"?


He already threw their "arrogance and foolish blindness back in their faces" by having the army that they blindly accepted shoot them in the backs and kill them, which was a little bit more effective than a speech. I mean, he did convey this in the conversation he had with Yoda before they dueled, and the audience is smart enough to figure out that Palpatine was behind everything, what with him telling the clones to execute Order 66 and Obi-Wan's line about Palpatine, y'know, being behind everything. And you, of all people, asking for more dialogue here . . . is that what you really want? ;) :pWell, when the story can't properly convey itself, exposition is needed.



I feel that these are all valid concerns. I tend to think that Sifo-Dyas must have been on the Council before TPM, and that Obi-Wan was unsure of remembering how everything went down around that time (hence the "almost" and "before" lines).I always felt that Sifo was not a council member, was a Jedi but not of such great importance, otherwise Obi-Wan would have been more familiar with his story, and Yoda & Mace would have been more incensed at the misappropriation of his name. I still think the script version of the whole thing makes more sense though, no Dyas at all, Sidious started the order with a fake name and clever set of rules to keep the Kaminoans in check, then had Dooku bring in the bounty hunter so fewer people knew who was who.

Either way though, Sifo-Dyas in my book is now a dead Jedi (possibly killed by a sneaky pre-TPM Sidious, that might be interesting) portrayed to the Kaminoans by Sidious, and then Jango was hired by Dooku once Dooku became a Sith. I'm sticking with my "Dyas wasn't a council member" thinking though.


So there's something wrong with there being mystery in Star Wars? The mystery is a big aspect of Obi-Wan's story in AOTC, what with him trying to trace the toxic dart and looking for clues and being thrown off the trail and so on (such as Dooku actually outright telling him about Sidious). Maybe Lucas overdid it? I don't think so.Ah, but therein lies the rub, because that mystery was explained, the searching for clues made for the compelling tale of Obi-Wan finding Jango, there was a reason for it and a solid payoff, the weight given to that plotline was resolved to the audience. The "Who is Sifo-Dyas?" thing was given a little weight, it had evidence about it that characters wanted to resolve, but that plotpoint was left dangling. I definitely feel Lucas dropped the ball with that piece, it was given the wrong amount of weight and evidence if he wanted it to remain a mystery OR if he wanted it to pay off for the audience. And keep in mind, I actually liked the Obi-Wan parts of AOTC.



Not like it's going to change anyone's minds but I'm under the impression that there were four Jedi councils (there are five spires on the temple at Coruscant but I guess the center one is a book depository); the high council (that's where we find Yoda, Mace, Ki-Adi, etc.) then the other three; first knowledge, reconciliation, and reassignment. Just sayin that Sifo-Dyas could have been on a council, just not THE council.Hmm, never heard that multiple-councils thing before. It doesn't work for me, but having him on a lesser council seems like a cop out.



That's the thing. I don't think they did spend a lot of time on it. Obi-Wan finds out about it, asks the Yoda and Mace about it, but that's it. By the end of the movie, they realize that Dooku is a Sith, and they seem him there with Jango. The EU explanation may be convoluted, but what is on-screen pretty much points to what I and Mr.JJL have been saying.It's not the number of seconds, it's the number of lines and amount of weight taken up on-screen by the issue. It's not a major issue in the film, but it is one given extra weight by the writer, director, and editor. And it's gotta be at least somewhat of an issue because here we are, 7 years later, still not agreeing on the matter - this has been one of the most active SW discussion threads lately, it obviously rings enough of a bell to have ardent detractors and defenders.

Darth Metalmute
04-16-2009, 02:07 PM
I finally read a book last night that I bought four years ago, Labrinth of Evil. Coincidently, it answered (to me) alot of questions that were on this thread.
Dooku was always interested in the Dark side. After Jinn died, he and other Jedi didn't like the way the council was heading. Dyas and Dooku were friends and spoke about the topic often. Dooku secretly thought about seeking out Sidious for training. However it was Sidious that sought Dooku out. Dooku was secretly trained by Sidious while still being a Jedi. Dyas had a vision that a great war was about to happen and went to the Kaminos to build an army. Sidious found out and had Dooku kill Dyas, completing his Sith training. Dooku then became Tryanus and pretended to be a liason to Dyas in the Kaminos eyes. Sidious would use the army, giving the Order 66 program to be installed in the clones. In his last moments of being a Jedi, Dooku erased all records of Kamino in the Jedi archives.

The problem I find with the prequals is that, unlike the Original Trilogy, which stands alone, you need to read the EU novels in order to fully grasp Lucas' intent. Before Lucas decided to do the prequals, Zahn was the voice of Star Wars in the 90's. I believe that the positive response to the EU influenced Lucas' decision on how the prequals were to be made. I mean, who makes a trilogy were the first movie takes place 10 years before the second movie, and the third movie begins during an important battle? The answer is, someone who is using the EU to fill in the gaps.

However the same person that uses the EU to fill his gaps, also says the EU is law, unless I change it.

pbarnard
04-16-2009, 02:20 PM
Hmm, never heard that multiple-councils thing before. It doesn't work for me, but having him on a lesser council seems like a cop out.

There are lesser councils, but nothing on which Sifo Dys was a member of outside of The Jedi Council. But not all meet in the spires. I'll have to check the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook it has a map of what each spire was for. One of the more promiment lesser councils was the Council of Reconciliation (Kit Fisto and Luminar Unduli were proposed members). Essentially a Jedi "rules" committee that handed out pennances and punishments if Jedi were bad.

2000 posts. yippee.:thumbsup:

El Chuxter
04-16-2009, 02:25 PM
I look at the prequels in a reverse way, as three somewhat decent movies based on excellent books. Read the novelizations and tie-ins (Cloak of Deception, The Approaching Storm, Labyrinth of Evil, and Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader), and you'll see what I mean.

Darth Metalmute
04-16-2009, 02:30 PM
I look at the prequels in a reverse way, as three somewhat decent movies based on excellent books. Read the novelizations and tie-ins (Cloak of Deception, The Approaching Storm, Labyrinth of Evil, and Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader), and you'll see what I mean.

I agree completely. And if you include the novelizations of The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith, over the actual movies, you have a great story.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-16-2009, 03:01 PM
There isn't enough evidence to connect the dots, I am remembering it quite clearly, and as my counter-evidence shows, your side's claims that it's "obvious it was Dooku" goes out the window when the script proves it was Sidious who did the ordering, not Dooku, and that aspect isn't negated by the shooting dialogue. In fact, I'd say the script's version is more interesting, and although it's convoluted, it makes sense - Sidious ordered the clones before choosing the bounty hunter, and had an intermediary perform all the contact with the bounty hunter.

The movie dialogue doesn't fit the timeline because Sifo-dyas and the ordering of the clones happened just over 10 years ago, which puts it before TPM and thus before Maul's death. Dooku pulling off a big Sith job would mean he was more in Sidious' pocket than Anakin was, and having him go by the name Tyranus as Jango said means Dooku was already a Sith when Jango was brought in. You can play the "maybe" game all day and night, but if you have to go there, it means you have to fill in the blanks which means the story itself has those holes and leaps in logic.
I never said it was "obvious it was Dooku," that was Lucas in some interview. Obviously Dooku hired Jango, and I agree with you when you said the clones were ordered before Jango was involved, which I already said earlier.


I still think the script version of the whole thing makes more sense though, no Dyas at all, Sidious started the order with a fake name and clever set of rules to keep the Kaminoans in check, then had Dooku bring in the bounty hunter so fewer people knew who was who.

Either way though, Sifo-Dyas in my book is now a dead Jedi (possibly killed by a sneaky pre-TPM Sidious, that might be interesting) portrayed to the Kaminoans by Sidious, and then Jango was hired by Dooku once Dooku became a Sith. I'm sticking with my "Dyas wasn't a council member" thinking though.
But the script version isn't the final version, so again, there's the woulda, coulda, shoulda thing here. I agree that Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi. Dooku was slipping toward the Dark Side while he was still a Jedi - it's not like he just left one day, went into the unemployment office looking for work, and came out with a Sith application. What if Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas as a test to prove his loyalty to Sidious right before the events of TPM? Then Maul died and the Battle of Naboo ended; Dooku or Palpatine (I'm leaning towards Palpatine) ordered the clones using Sifo-Dyas' name to get clout with the Kaminoans, saying he was a leading member of the Jedi Council (whether that was true or not, I don't know); Dooku became Tyranus at some point, and then recruited Jango to be the template.


The "Who is Sifo-Dyas?" thing was given a little weight, it had evidence about it that characters wanted to resolve, but that plotpoint was left dangling.
I think the Jedi pretty obviously realized that there was shady business involved in the creation of the army when the clones turned against them. At the start of the war, they just took the army and used it, since it was all they had and their own numbers were already dwindling; I'm not sure they really had time to question the army's origins when they had more important things to worry about, like the war itself. The Jedi's arrogance, mentioned by Yoda in AOTC and shown in their unquestioning acceptance of the army, is reflected in their not investigating the origins enough. But, I mean, how were they going to get the answer anyway? If they asked the Kaminoans, they'd just repeat what they told Obi-Wan: Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas ordered the army for the Republic. They wouldn't know who Tyranus was; they could look into it, but they hadn't heard Dooku being called that. Though Jango was with Dooku later, they probably didn't connect the dots, thinking that bounty hunters just work for whoever hires them, knowing that Jango was hired by Nute Gunray to kill Padmé and that Nute Gunray was working with Dooku. They couldn't ask Sifo-Dyas, since only Qui-Gon knew how to communicate from beyond, and he seemingly wasn't doing much at the time anyway.


The problem I find with the prequals is that, unlike the Original Trilogy, which stands alone, you need to read the EU novels in order to fully grasp Lucas' intent. Before Lucas decided to do the prequals, Zahn was the voice of Star Wars in the 90's. I believe that the positive response to the EU influenced Lucas' decision on how the prequals were to be made. I mean, who makes a trilogy were the first movie takes place 10 years before the second movie, and the third movie begins during an important battle? The answer is, someone who is using the EU to fill in the gaps.
Both ROTS and ANH begin in the middle of a battle, the origins of which were explained in the opening crawl, so that was nothing new. It's in medias res, the technique of throwing you right into the middle of the story. What's wrong with there being ten years between TPM and AOTC? You're supposed to know that Anakin's been training with Obi-Wan, and the rest is pretty much filled in by dialogue in the movie itself. The EU is mostly nonessential stuff to fill the time. I really don't think the EU affected him in this way.

Darth Metalmute
04-16-2009, 06:48 PM
Both ROTS and ANH begin in the middle of a battle,

ANH doesn't start at the middle of a battle, is starts near the begining. ROTS starts after the second most important thing of that battle occured, the capture of Palpatine. In my opinion, that needed to be on-screen, not in a novel or on a clone wars cartoon. That is an important part of the story. Who wouldn't want to see Grevious' attack on the capital and slay a few Jedi.


What's wrong with there being ten years between TPM and AOTC?

That's another topic entirely. However, I have always believed that TPM, should have been handled like Willow was in the LOTR trilogy. AOTC should have been Episode 1. The Clone Wars should have been Episode 2.


The EU is mostly nonessential stuff to fill the time.

Nonessential stuff? Labrinth of Evil explains the entire Battle of Coruscant up until the movie start. That's the definition of essential.


I really don't think the EU affected him in this way.

The EU gave him an out. The EU allowed him to tell a story in under 3 hours, and still explain the unexplained.

Mad Slanted Powers
04-16-2009, 07:33 PM
The movie dialogue doesn't fit the timeline because Sifo-dyas and the ordering of the clones happened just over 10 years ago, which puts it before TPM and thus before Maul's death.You need the EU to figure out that the timeline doesn't fit. Just based on the movies, how do you know exactly when the events of TPM were in relation to Dooku becoming a Sith? We know it is about 10 years, as I believe Anakin mentioned it at the beginning.


ANH doesn't start at the middle of a battle, is starts near the begining. ROTS starts after the second most important thing of that battle occured, the capture of Palpatine. In my opinion, that needed to be on-screen, not in a novel or on a clone wars cartoon. That is an important part of the story. Who wouldn't want to see Grevious' attack on the capital and slay a few Jedi.By that argument, we should have seen on screen the rebels stealing the Death Star plans.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-16-2009, 07:50 PM
ANH doesn't start at the middle of a battle, is starts near the begining. ROTS starts after the second most important thing of that battle occured, the capture of Palpatine. In my opinion, that needed to be on-screen, not in a novel or on a clone wars cartoon. That is an important part of the story. Who wouldn't want to see Grevious' attack on the capital and slay a few Jedi.

...

Nonessential stuff? Labrinth of Evil explains the entire Battle of Coruscant up until the movie start. That's the definition of essential.

Then how about them explaining it with some giant floating words at the start of the movie? Oh, wait . . .

"In a stunning move, the fiendish droid leader, General Grievous, has swept into the Republic capital and kidnapped Chancellor Palpatine, leader of the Galactic Senate.

"As the Separatist Droid Army attempts to flee the besieged capital with their valuable hostage, two Jedi Knights lead a desperate mission to rescue the captive Chancellor...."
The movie starts with Anakin and Obi-Wan's involvement in the battle, which is the most important part.


By that argument, we should have seen on screen the rebels stealing the Death Star plans.
Exactly.

Darth Metalmute
04-17-2009, 12:08 AM
By that argument, we should have seen on screen the rebels stealing the Death Star plans.

Big difference. The plans were not just stolen when ANH begins. The plans were being transfered at the time. To show the plans being stolen, Lucas would have then had to show the plans being transfered from Kartarn to Leia, which would be scenes meaningless to the story. And remember, at the time, 1977, no one really knew how she got the plans. For all we knew, because she was a member of the Imperial Senate, she could have had access to them or hacked in through the Imperial net. So it made since to start the movie when it did.

In ROTS, Palpatine had just been capture 5 minutes ago. Grevious is seen heading to the control room straight from his return from planet side. How hard could it have been for this to be in the movie? It would have only added 20-30 minutes, allowed viewers to watch Grevious kill Jedi, and been visually stunning to watch. But Lucas was lazy and put it in the crawl. Thats the entire reason behind the original clone wars series. I believe he said so himself in the interview on the DVD. He wanted a tie-in to the movie. Lucas is a hypocrite. He had to redo the OT because "it wasn't what he invisioned it to be, he didn't have the technology at the time" and when he finally had the technology to showcase what would have been visually breathtaking, he left it up to Cartoon Network to do, showcased between Ed, Edd and Eddie and a Family Guy re-run.


Then how about them explaining it with some giant floating words at the start of the movie? Oh, wait . . .

It is a scene that I would have liked to have seen, not read from a recap before the movie began. It wouldn't have taken anything away from the final product of the movie itself. If Lucas was worried about time, he could have taken out the scene in which Anakin and Padme were discussing Politics. That scene was completely taken out of context anyways.


The movie starts with Anakin and Obi-Wan's involvement in the battle, which is the most important part.

Cause and effect. Anakin and Obi-Wan's involvement is the effect. The capture of Palpatine is the cause. And when the cause happens 5 minutes before the movie starts, it is kind of important to show and not recap. There is no reason that that the assault on Coruscant was not in the movie, And even less of a reason that it wasn't even shot.

JediTricks
04-17-2009, 06:16 PM
I finally read a book last night that I bought four years ago, Labrinth of Evil. Coincidently, it answered (to me) alot of questions that were on this thread.
Dooku was always interested in the Dark side. After Jinn died, he and other Jedi didn't like the way the council was heading. Dyas and Dooku were friends and spoke about the topic often. Dooku secretly thought about seeking out Sidious for training. However it was Sidious that sought Dooku out. Dooku was secretly trained by Sidious while still being a Jedi. Dyas had a vision that a great war was about to happen and went to the Kaminos to build an army. Sidious found out and had Dooku kill Dyas, completing his Sith training. Dooku then became Tryanus and pretended to be a liason to Dyas in the Kaminos eyes. Sidious would use the army, giving the Order 66 program to be installed in the clones. In his last moments of being a Jedi, Dooku erased all records of Kamino in the Jedi archives.

The problem I find with the prequals is that, unlike the Original Trilogy, which stands alone, you need to read the EU novels in order to fully grasp Lucas' intent. Before Lucas decided to do the prequals, Zahn was the voice of Star Wars in the 90's. I believe that the positive response to the EU influenced Lucas' decision on how the prequals were to be made. I mean, who makes a trilogy were the first movie takes place 10 years before the second movie, and the third movie begins during an important battle? The answer is, someone who is using the EU to fill in the gaps.

However the same person that uses the EU to fill his gaps, also says the EU is law, unless I change it.This is why I don't like the EU anymore. That was horribly convoluted when the original intent was simple and clean and in the script. The '90s stuff was much more fun and creative and not wrapped up in justifying a new set of movies.



But the script version isn't the final version, so again, there's the woulda, coulda, shoulda thing here. I agree that Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi. Dooku was slipping toward the Dark Side while he was still a Jedi - it's not like he just left one day, went into the unemployment office looking for work, and came out with a Sith application. What if Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas as a test to prove his loyalty to Sidious right before the events of TPM? Then Maul died and the Battle of Naboo ended; Dooku or Palpatine (I'm leaning towards Palpatine) ordered the clones using Sifo-Dyas' name to get clout with the Kaminoans, saying he was a leading member of the Jedi Council (whether that was true or not, I don't know); Dooku became Tyranus at some point, and then recruited Jango to be the template.I know it's the script and not the final, but what I'm saying is that nothing in the final shooting dialogue actually contradicts the script version in terms of Sidious and Dooku, it only changes who Dyas is - and that doesn't actually have to matter if we accept that his name was being stolen and used for the order.

I don't care who killed Dyas, the movie script doesn't care who killed him either, only that his name was used to order a clone army. With that in mind, I think it's bad storytelling on Lucas' part to try to make something out of Dyas when it doesn't really matter who he was as long as we know someone used that name who wasn't him to order the clones, and Lucas doesn't pay it off anyway so there's no reason to go into that and not come back out.


I think the Jedi pretty obviously realized that there was shady business involved in the creation of the army when the clones turned against them. At the start of the war, they just took the army and used it, since it was all they had and their own numbers were already dwindling; I'm not sure they really had time to question the army's origins when they had more important things to worry about, like the war itself.See, that's another area where the prequels don't do their legwork. We're supposed to accept that the Jedi are powerful and wise, they have built a massive infrastructure and a galactic legacy around that stuff, and yet as soon as they're handed a mysterious clone army, they just accept it blindly, not worrying about the consequences that something might be a setup? I know, I know, they were busy fighting a war, but they couldn't spare 1 smart Jedi to look into the situation a little better? It doesn't fit well, it's messy.


The Jedi's arrogance, mentioned by Yoda in AOTC and shown in their unquestioning acceptance of the army, is reflected in their not investigating the origins enough. But, I mean, how were they going to get the answer anyway? If they asked the Kaminoans, they'd just repeat what they told Obi-Wan: Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas ordered the army for the Republic.If they are so arrogant, they'd not be as large as they are, that's a level of foolishness that would constrain, not grow, their brand.

And gee, how hard would it be to investigate the programming and education provided and see "Order 66: kill Jedi" or "Order 66: classified"?


They wouldn't know who Tyranus was; they could look into it, but they hadn't heard Dooku being called that. Though Jango was with Dooku later, they probably didn't connect the dots, thinking that bounty hunters just work for whoever hires them, knowing that Jango was hired by Nute Gunray to kill Padmé and that Nute Gunray was working with Dooku. They couldn't ask Sifo-Dyas, since only Qui-Gon knew how to communicate from beyond, and he seemingly wasn't doing much at the time anyway.By the end of AOTC, the Jedi know that Dooku is a Sith, that's enough to connect the name "Tyranus" to Dooku through the evidence they have.



You need the EU to figure out that the timeline doesn't fit. Just based on the movies, how do you know exactly when the events of TPM were in relation to Dooku becoming a Sith? We know it is about 10 years, as I believe Anakin mentioned it at the beginning.It's all over the script, but didn't appear on-screen I guess. Still, as fans, we know what the timeline is. This is another overly-convenient and close call situation that Lucas has shoved down our throats with the prequels, another lawyer-ball "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you!!!" thing.

clone157
04-17-2009, 06:41 PM
In Republic Commando: Order 66 it was explained that there was 150 orders for emergency situations. And I always thought that Sifo-Dyas clone army was "fo-SiDyas", ya get it, "For sidious" .:D I always thought it was a nudge-nudge, wink-wink kind of thing. Then they went crazy with it in the EU. I love the EU by the way, most of it anyway.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-17-2009, 07:20 PM
See, that's another area where the prequels don't do their legwork. We're supposed to accept that the Jedi are powerful and wise, they have built a massive infrastructure and a galactic legacy around that stuff, and yet as soon as they're handed a mysterious clone army, they just accept it blindly, not worrying about the consequences that something might be a setup? I know, I know, they were busy fighting a war, but they couldn't spare 1 smart Jedi to look into the situation a little better? It doesn't fit well, it's messy.

If they are so arrogant, they'd not be as large as they are, that's a level of foolishness that would constrain, not grow, their brand.
Their arrogance seems to be a relatively recent thing; Yoda refers to it as "a flaw more and more common" in AOTC.


By the end of AOTC, the Jedi know that Dooku is a Sith, that's enough to connect the name "Tyranus" to Dooku through the evidence they have.
So the audience doesn't have enough evidence to figure out the necessary points of the Sifo-Dyas story, but the Jedi have enough evidence to know what Dooku's Sith name is? Riiiight. :p

JediTricks
04-18-2009, 05:54 PM
And I always thought that Sifo-Dyas clone army was "fo-SiDyas", ya get it, "For sidious" .:D Haw! That one made me laugh out loud, that was awesome, it's a keeper.


So the audience doesn't have enough evidence to figure out the necessary points of the Sifo-Dyas story, but the Jedi have enough evidence to know what Dooku's Sith name is? Riiiight. :p"Apples! Oranges! Apples and oranges! Step right up and compare these apples and oranges! Only one dollah!"


A guy named Tyranus hired Jango.
Jango runs from Obi-Wan straight to Dooku where they are seen hanging out.
Dooku is revealed to be a Sith.

No conflicting dialogue, no pointless pondering over who Tyranus might be and what he might have done by any of the characters, nothing misleading about that evidence. It's totally different than "WHO IS SIFO-DYAS?"