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TheDarthVader
07-31-2009, 10:14 PM
I believe the real biggest moment in ROTJ is often overlooked. I believe the biggest moment in Return of the Jedi is Leia figuring out that Darth Vader is her father! Really...how many times do we think that, not only does Leia realize Luke is her brother, but that Darth Vader is her father too! Wowzer. That is a spicy meatball. :D

Qui-Long Gone
08-01-2009, 12:01 AM
I always wish more had been done with that...

Bel-Cam Jos
08-01-2009, 10:56 AM
When she first finds out, there's a look of horror on Leia's face. It it was in book form, that'd be a perfect place for a flashback of the Death Star, Cloud City, some pre-ANH events.

Han: "I understand. When he gets back... I won't get in the way."
Leia: "No. It's not like that. He's my brother."
[Han and Leia smooch]
Leia: "And by the way; that guy who stole your blaster right out of your hand, tortured you on a heat rack, then froze you in carbonite? He's my dad. Wanna keep smoochin'?"
Han: "Whaaaaaaaa-?!?"

sith_killer_99
08-01-2009, 04:42 PM
I thought the biggest revelation was Darth Vader becoming one with the force ala Yoda and Obi-Wan. Anakin didn't learn it from the Jedi, so he either figured it out on his own or the Sith knew how to make it happen.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-01-2009, 05:04 PM
I thought the biggest revelation was Darth Vader becoming one with the force ala Yoda and Obi-Wan. Anakin didn't learn it from the Jedi, so he either figured it out on his own or the Sith knew how to make it happen.Or perhaps Obi-Wan and Yoda helped bring him over.

Bel-Cam Jos
08-01-2009, 05:09 PM
Or perhaps Obi-Wan and Yoda helped bring him over.That's called the Force Booster Chair technique. :rolleyes:

bigbarada
08-01-2009, 05:48 PM
The whole revelation that Leia was Luke's sister has always bothered me. You just have to watch ANH and ESB to realize that was obviously never the intent. It was just a lazy, last-minute change to the story to tie up some loose plot threads. So it's little wonder that it was handled so poorly in the film.

TeeEye7
08-02-2009, 07:22 PM
I always wish more had been done with that...

Agreed. That's why ROTJ (like ROTS) is my least favorite of the OT. The story was rushed to try to tie up loose ends.

It's always baffled me that G.Lu didn't take SW farther. I always look at the James Bond franchise and it's longevity and wonder why there wasn't the confidence with SW to try and do the same. We all know it would have been successful.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-02-2009, 07:32 PM
Agreed. That's why ROTJ (like ROTS) is my least favorite of the OT. The story was rushed to try to tie up loose ends.

It's always baffled me that G.Lu didn't take SW farther. I always look at the James Bond franchise and it's longevity and wonder why there wasn't the confidence with SW to try and do the same. We all know it would have been successful.But how long would the actors have stuck with it? He could have done the prequels, but he wanted to wait until he had better technology. When that technology arrived, he did take it farther by doing the prequels, and now we have The Clone Wars, and hopefully a live action series. I would really like to see some of the other EU stories done, whether it be live action or animation. I would want a more realistic animation though. The Han Solo Trilogy (both new and old, along with the Lando Adventures), the X-Wing novels and comics, and the Tales of the Jedi/Knights of the Old Republic era stories would all be great to see as TV series.

TeeEye7
08-02-2009, 08:52 PM
Who knows how long the original cast would hang with the franchise? My point is G.Lu had/has the ability to take the franchise and run with it (maybe to the fabled 9 episodes). The tangents from the OT would be limitless! This could be done with or without the OT cast.

Just like Qui-Long Gone opined above, it's sad we're stuck with the "what ifs" instead of the "what is". And as MSP states, how cool would it be for episodes to be rendered in both animation and live action....even further!

I just think it's sad. I can't help but feel short changed. Unlike most here, I've been wishing this since May 1977.

Qui-Long Gone
08-02-2009, 11:24 PM
You know, another big revelation in ROTJ came when the Emperor was falling down the shaft....I bet he thought about all his bad choices during that drop. :squareeye

Rocketboy
08-03-2009, 11:05 AM
You know, another big revelation in ROTJ came when the Emperor was falling down the shaft....I bet he thought about all his bad choices during that drop. :squareeyeLike having said bottom less pit in his throne room. What if had tripped on his robe? Or what if someone had just mopped the floor?

DarkJedi5
08-03-2009, 11:26 AM
The whole revelation that Leia was Luke's sister has always bothered me. You just have to watch ANH and ESB to realize that was obviously never the intent. It was just a lazy, last-minute change to the story to tie up some loose plot threads. So it's little wonder that it was handled so poorly in the film.

See, I don't know about that. I've been reading "The making of Star Wars" and there are interviews with George taken from the late 70s (right after the first movie was finished) and he talks about his writing process where he splits the Starkiller hero into two parts; Luke and Leia. I think he even references them as twins but I'd have to find the exact quote. I do think the Vader as Luke's father wasn't planned originally as those same inteviews hint that Luke's father really was killed by Darth Vader (and not just from a certain point of view) just before he took his lava bath. So those scenes in ANH where Vader and Leia intereact, even if Leia as a twin had always been the plan, Vader as the father was not.

bigbarada
08-03-2009, 03:39 PM
See, I don't know about that. I've been reading "The making of Star Wars" and there are interviews with George taken from the late 70s (right after the first movie was finished) and he talks about his writing process where he splits the Starkiller hero into two parts; Luke and Leia. I think he even references them as twins but I'd have to find the exact quote. I do think the Vader as Luke's father wasn't planned originally as those same inteviews hint that Luke's father really was killed by Darth Vader (and not just from a certain point of view) just before he took his lava bath. So those scenes in ANH where Vader and Leia intereact, even if Leia as a twin had always been the plan, Vader as the father was not.

Well, I believe that Lucas had so many conflicting versions of the story that we're never going to get consistent interviews from the man.

However, if what you say is correct, then that just begs the question: If Lucas knew all along that Luke and Leia were brother and sister, then why set them up as a romantic interest in ANH and why have them kiss in ESB, not just once but twice? (the first kiss was edited out of the final version of the film) Seems a little strange to intentionally write something like that into a kids movie.

I have heard that Vader wasn't Luke's father is some versions of the script. In fact, in one version of ESB, Vader reveals to Luke that Obi-Wan was actually the one who killed his father.

However, similar to how Luke and Leia started out as the same character, Vader actually started out as 2 or 3 characters that were eventually combined into one. The original version of Darth Vader was just an extremely violent General with cybernetic parts. I honestly believe that General Grievous is based on this early version of Vader.

Anyways, if you really want an interesting read, then check out the Annotated Screenplays book. It talks about the early concepts and storylines of all three original films. Once you read that, then you'll understand why the prequels are the way they are. The simple fact of the matter is that George Lucas didn't change at all, the only thing that changed was the size of his wallet.

Rocketboy
08-03-2009, 05:09 PM
I have heard that Vader wasn't Luke's father is some versions of the script. I've heard a few times that Lucas debated for a long time whether or not Vader should be Luke's father. It was always an idea of his and when he finally got to writing the treatment/outline for Empire he decided to go for it.


In fact, in one version of ESB, Vader reveals to Luke that Obi-Wan was actually the one who killed his father.Semi-true. As they filmed Empire that was the original line. Very few people knew that Vader would be revealed as Luke's father. On set, only Lucas, Kirshner & Hamill knew the truth and Hamill was only told so they could get a deeper reaction.

Blue2th
08-03-2009, 05:49 PM
That cute little Ewoks actually barbecue and eat humans.

I wonder what kind of feast they had after the Rebels left and the celebration was over, Stormtrooper on the barbie? :Ponder:

Devo
08-05-2009, 10:39 PM
I thought the biggest revelation was Darth Vader becoming one with the force ala Yoda and Obi-Wan. Anakin didn't learn it from the Jedi, so he either figured it out on his own or the Sith knew how to make it happen.

Yeah but that wasn't even a thing until the PT was made. Prior to that it was just assumed that all jedi, good or evil, disappeared after they died. So I wouldn't call that a revelation.


The whole revelation that Leia was Luke's sister has always bothered me. You just have to watch ANH and ESB to realize that was obviously never the intent. It was just a lazy, last-minute change to the story to tie up some loose plot threads. So it's little wonder that it was handled so poorly in the film.

What about the "There is another" line in ESB? While not a direct indicator I always thought that was a pretty significant hint.

And the kissing in ANH and ESB wasn't exactly hardcore. She gave Luke a peck on the cheek, maybe twice, in ANH and a kiss on the lips in ESB lasting perhaps a tad longer than would be deemed appropriate between brother and sister. But its not like we saw tongues and groping.

bigbarada
08-05-2009, 11:05 PM
What about the "There is another" line in ESB? While not a direct indicator I always thought that was a pretty significant hint.

And the kissing in ANH and ESB wasn't exactly hardcore. She gave Luke a peck on the cheek, maybe twice, in ANH and a kiss on the lips in ESB lasting perhaps a tad longer than would be deemed appropriate between brother and sister. But its not like we saw tongues and groping.

In a 1970s/1980s kid's movie any kissing on the lips is a signal to the audience of romantic interest. In fact, Lucas was very adamant about keeping sexual content out of the original film, which is why Leia's breasts were taped down. So, it's almost inconceivable that Lucas would take those precautions and yet still hint at a romantic interest between a brother and sister.

Before the internet, we had these things called books and magazines. I specifically remember an old interview from a point in time between ESB and ROTJ, where Lucas claims that the "there is another" line is intended to refer to Luke's twin sister, who Lucas claimed we hadn't seen yet and would be the star of a second Star Wars trilogy which was intended to run parallel to the original films. Those trilogies were intended to be followed up by a prequel trilogy and then a sequel trilogy, bringing the total to 12 films.

I have never found the interview online and I don't even remember what the source was. Of course, Lucas has been rewriting the history of the Star Wars films since the beginning, so that comment has been lost in the mass revisionism that took place starting in 1994.

Obviously, Lucas decided he didn't want to make anymore movies while filming ROTJ and cut plans for the concurrent trilogy, thus requiring him to shoehorn Leia in as Luke's sister.

For those of us who lived through the original releases of the films, the revelation of Vader being Luke's father was an "OMG, that makes perfect sense!" moment. When Leia was revealed as Luke's sister, it just resulted in a collective "huh?" then reluctant acceptance. There was nothing in ANH or ESB that even hinted at Leia being Luke's sister.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-05-2009, 11:32 PM
There was nothing in ANH or ESB that even hinted at Leia being Luke's sister.How about the fact that Luke called out to her through The Force at the end of ESB, and she was able to hear it?

bigbarada
08-06-2009, 08:57 AM
How about the fact that Luke called out to her through The Force at the end of ESB, and she was able to hear it?

Using 20/20 hindsight, then.... maybe. But it's a stretch. Luke was able to sense Han and Chewie being tortured in that movie as well, did that mean that Luke, Han and Chewie were brothers?

In fact, prior to the release of ROTJ, the scene of Luke calling out to Leia did more to hint that they were boyfriend/girlfriend not siblings.

Bel-Cam Jos
08-06-2009, 10:14 AM
How about the fact that Luke called out to her through The Force at the end of ESB, and she was able to hear it?Well, actually Luke tried Ben (no answer), then Han (frozen line), Chewie (garbled operator), Biggs (line dead), R2 (reel 2 dialogue 2 missing), Threepio (could only pick up his 6,000,001st form of communication), Wedge (said he couldn't stay, sorry), and then Leia by default.

DarkJedi5
08-06-2009, 10:19 AM
Using 20/20 hindsight, then.... maybe. But it's a stretch. Luke was able to sense Han and Chewie being tortured in that movie as well, did that mean that Luke, Han and Chewie were brothers?

In fact, prior to the release of ROTJ, the scene of Luke calling out to Leia did more to hint that they were boyfriend/girlfriend not siblings.

Who says Luke felt Han and Chewie being tortured? He had a vision of it while training. It's possible (and likely) that Vader found a way to help him see it to draw him to Bespin. What if that's a Sith art? Perhaps Palpatine help Anakin with those nightmares about Shmi and Padme? Or is it possible that Leia projected it subconsciously through the force?

bigbarada
08-06-2009, 10:56 AM
Who says Luke felt Han and Chewie being tortured? He had a vision of it while training. It's possible (and likely) that Vader found a way to help him see it to draw him to Bespin. What if that's a Sith art? Perhaps Palpatine help Anakin with those nightmares about Shmi and Padme? Or is it possible that Leia projected it subconsciously through the force?

Well, you are using knowledge of the 29 years worth of SW media produced after ESB to answer the question. Again, my point is that watching ESB with no knowledge of ROTJ, the prequels, EU or even the name "Anakin Skywalker", it's not evident at all that Luke's communication with Leia is anything other than just one more new Jedi power that Luke manifests in that film (remember that ESB is the first time that we've seen Luke use the force to move an object, have clairvoyant visions, or transmit a telepathic message).

DarkJedi5
08-06-2009, 11:24 AM
Well, you are using knowledge of the 29 years worth of SW media produced after ESB to answer the question. Again, my point is that watching ESB with no knowledge of ROTJ, the prequels, EU or even the name "Anakin Skywalker", it's not evident at all that Luke's communication with Leia is anything other than just one more new Jedi power that Luke manifests in that film (remember that ESB is the first time that we've seen Luke use the force to move an object, have clairvoyant visions, or transmit a telepathic message).

Fair enough. I just see the story at the end of Empire intentionally left unfinished. Those poor people who were alive back then had to wait years before finding out what happens next (I had to wait about a minute, which was the length of time required to eject the ESB VHS and pop in ROTJ) so while it's not invalid to try and interpret the relationships in ESB on their own, I just don't see why you wouldn't take into account the end of the story. For me ESB and ROTJ have always felt like parts 1 and 2 of the same movie, I guess that's just the perspective I have because of my age.

No matter what, it's not as bad as the love triangle that was in place at the end of the second Pirates of the Caribbean movie. That was just terrible. Killed the franchise for me.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
08-06-2009, 12:14 PM
At CIV, Irvin Kershner said that he didn't know that Luke and Leia were siblings when he directed ESB. That doesn't necessarily mean that Lucas hadn't planned it, though. I dunno.

bigbarada
08-06-2009, 12:17 PM
Fair enough. I just see the story at the end of Empire intentionally left unfinished. Those poor people who were alive back then had to wait years before finding out what happens next (I had to wait about a minute, which was the length of time required to eject the ESB VHS and pop in ROTJ) so while it's not invalid to try and interpret the relationships in ESB on their own, I just don't see why you wouldn't take into account the end of the story. For me ESB and ROTJ have always felt like parts 1 and 2 of the same movie, I guess that's just the perspective I have because of my age.

No matter what, it's not as bad as the love triangle that was in place at the end of the second Pirates of the Caribbean movie. That was just terrible. Killed the franchise for me.

Well, it's true, ESB was intentionally left as a cliffhanger. However, I was 4 years old when Star Wars premiered in 1977, so I've been reading behind the scenes information about the films since I learned how to read. And I've read enough in magazines and books, written between 1980 and 1983, to know that the original resolution to the ESB cliffhanger was a very different story from the one that ended up on screen. At some point, during the filming of ROTJ, Lucas decided that he wasn't going to make 12 films like he originally announced; so that left him with a bunch of dangling plot threads and just a little over 2 hours of screen time to tie all of those up. Hence, some shortcuts had to be made and one of those shortcuts was shoehorning Leia in as Luke's sister.

Mad Slanted Powers
08-06-2009, 05:53 PM
Using 20/20 hindsight, then.... maybe. But it's a stretch. Luke was able to sense Han and Chewie being tortured in that movie as well, did that mean that Luke, Han and Chewie were brothers?Luke sensed them, but they did not sense him. Leia heard Luke's call. Now, it is true that at the time, this didn't make me think that Leia would be the other one that Yoda referred to. However, there was nothing in ANH or ESB prior to Vader's revelation that led us to believe that Vader was Luke's father. Even after that revelation, people debated about whether or not it was true. In retrospect, there are plenty of hints.

Qui-Long Gone
08-06-2009, 07:01 PM
I think it's clear Luke and Leia were connected from early on in the script...but the kiss thing threw a wrench in it--from a certain point of view--but I agree there are plenty of 'hints,' particularly at the end of ESB.

TeeEye7
08-07-2009, 02:18 AM
In ESB, Leia says she "likes nice men". Isn't Luke a "nice man"? :lipsrsealed:

bigbarada
08-07-2009, 10:30 AM
I think it's clear Luke and Leia were connected from early on in the script...but the kiss thing threw a wrench in it--from a certain point of view--but I agree there are plenty of 'hints,' particularly at the end of ESB.

It's the big kiss in ESB that bothers me, because when you factor that in, then all of those "hints" of Luke and Leia being brother and sister really just turn into hints that they are in love and share a romantic bond, not a genetic bond.

bigbarada
08-07-2009, 10:33 AM
At CIV, Irvin Kershner said that he didn't know that Luke and Leia were siblings when he directed ESB. That doesn't necessarily mean that Lucas hadn't planned it, though. I dunno.

I do remember reading that, and it's pretty good evidence that they weren't brother and sister when Kershner started shooting ESB. It might have been part of a different version, from a different draft of the script, but I don't believe for a minute that Lucas approved the final cut of ESB knowing full well that Luke and Leia were brother and sister.

Darkross
08-17-2009, 08:10 PM
Luke's vision at the cave on Dagobah. Surely seeing his face in Darth Vader's mask had to ring something in his head that he and Vader were related...or at least looked alike under the mask!

El Chuxter
08-17-2009, 08:13 PM
I always thought he interpreted it as his being in danger of falling to evil for acting aggressively in the cave, since he already knew Vader had been a Jedi who acted rashly and fell to darkness. He didn't know yet it was a whiny emo kid who knocked up his mom and ran away to cry.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
08-17-2009, 10:22 PM
I always look at as Luke realizing that he could easily become Vader if he's not careful, like Chux said. It just underscores how many of Luke and Anakin's life situations were similar and differed only in how they reacted to them.

Bel-Cam Jos
08-20-2009, 03:27 PM
I always thought it meant that Vader's helmet was going to be removed in SW3, and that later, his Force ghost would be replaced by a younger face. :upset:

"Nothing... can stop... that now. Let me look upon you... with Hayden Christensen's eyes..." :dead:

Qui-Long Gone
08-21-2009, 08:24 AM
^nnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!