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El Chuxter
09-17-2009, 05:20 PM
LUKE: Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
LEIA: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
LUKE: What do you remember?
LEIA: Just images, really. Feelings.
LUKE: Tell me.
LEIA: She was very beautiful. Kind, but sad.

So, how do we know that Leia's not talking about Breha? Everyone seems to assume she's referring to Padme, but where is it stated that Breha didn't die when Leia was a young child? Most stories that feature Leia prior to ANH feature Bail only, and he seems to either be a widower or possibly married to someone who takes a very hands-off approach to Leia.

I dunno, to me, the only way any of it makes sense is if Leia thinks Breha was her biological mother and she was raised by either a later stepmother or a servant. From what little we see of Breha, she seems like she could fit the very beautiful, but sad description.

I just cannot at all overlook the assumption that Padme pops out a six-month-old baby (with none of the associated goo), and it's even more laughable that this baby, no matter how Force sensitive, could remember this mother from a few seconds immediately after her birth.

So, to me, the "real mother" isn't really the real mother Leia thinks she is. It's Breha, not Padme. Anything that states otherwise, I'll ignore like The Clone Wars and Legacy.

Rocketboy
09-17-2009, 05:27 PM
Why did Luke assume Leia knew she was adopted?


LUKE: Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
LEIA: Just a little bit. She died when I was...[PAUSE] Wait, what do you mean "real" mother?
LUKE: Ummm...[RUNS AWAY]

El Chuxter
09-17-2009, 05:28 PM
That part, I figured just came up in conversation during the years between ANH and ROTJ. The two were close, and I imagine Leia would've wanted to talk to someone about the trauma of everyone on her homeworld being disintegrated while she was forced to watch.

Rocketboy
09-17-2009, 05:32 PM
But it would seem much easier (and safer for Leia) if Bail never told her, even though it must've been obvious since Leia isn't part Puerto Rican.

El Chuxter
09-17-2009, 05:36 PM
That's what I'm saying, RB. She grew up assuming Breha was her mother, until she died when she was a toddler or maybe early elementary age--an age where an adult would still have some memories. Even if it wasn't common knowledge that Padme was married to Anakin, telling her that her mother was a senator from another world whose body was doctored to look like it was still pregnant when she was buried might've been problematic. And if Leia was the youngest senator in the Empire, where she was likely to run into Palpatine and Vader (and did, according to the EU), letting her in on knowledge that, if spilled, would let Vader know she was his kid (if not the other way around) would be a really, really serious problem.

No, she definitely thought Breha was her real mother in my book, until after the conversation with Luke on Endor.

Darth Metalmute
09-17-2009, 06:18 PM
I'm sorta on RB's side on this one. If she grew up thinking Breha was her real mother, wouldn't she have said, "What do you mean real mother" when he asked? I imagine since they were close, they would have discussed Breha and she would have found the real mother question odd, especially considering Luke being rasied by a Uncle and Aunt. I would have thought Luke would have asked what it was like to be raised by real parents.

You ever see that episode of Robot Chicken where at Micheal Jacksons acquittal, a spaceship crashes and out pops the real Micheal Jackson? I wonder if the Original Trilogy GL is somewhere out in space and the alien created GL never actually saw the original trilogy.

El Chuxter
09-17-2009, 06:22 PM
She thought Breha was her birth mother. Someone else, likely a second wife of Bail's who would've been Leia's stepmother, was her adopted mother. She would have memories of Breha, but not many, and the second Mrs Organa would be the person she normally spoke of as her mother.

Darth Metalmute
09-17-2009, 06:30 PM
She thought Breha was her birth mother. Someone else, likely a second wife of Bail's who would've been Leia's stepmother, was her adopted mother. She would have memories of Breha, but not many, and the second Mrs Organa would be the person she normally spoke of as her mother.

I suppose that make sense, but then we are assuming that that Breha died or was divorced before Allderan was destroyed. I agree it can't be Padme, no matter what wookieepedia says.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-17-2009, 06:33 PM
She thought Breha was her birth mother. Someone else, likely a second wife of Bail's who would've been Leia's stepmother, was her adopted mother. She would have memories of Breha, but not many, and the second Mrs Organa would be the person she normally spoke of as her mother.
Uh, okay. I just figured she could sense familial connections through the Force more than Luke could - she claimed to always know that Luke was her brother, but Luke didn't seem to have a clue (he did figure it out pretty quickly when Obi-Wan said he had a sister, but he only had like three options anyway). That's probably also why she could sense Luke calling out to her from Cloud City, but nobody else could.

Leia never said she remembers going out to lunch with her mom before preschool, she just said - well, you know what she said. Nothing she says in ROTJ was contradicted by ROTS.

Darth Metalmute
09-17-2009, 06:50 PM
Nothing she says in ROTJ was contradicted by ROTS.

Well that depends on how you take it. If you believe she is refering to Breha like El Chuxter brought up, then that statement is true.

If you believe she is refering to Padme, then you also have to believe that as a premature baby, Leia has the greatest memory in history.

If you believe GL never actually sat down and watched ROTJ.......:lipsrsealed:

Darth Metalmute
09-17-2009, 07:06 PM
I always found the line, "Somehow, I've always known" as pretty funny. It was obvious that she didn't know when she kissed him in the recovery room, otherwise why would she kiss him. I imagine as she's walking down the hall, she's thinking to herself, "why does it feel like I just kissed the family dog?"

Can you imagine the conversation her and Han had in bed one night?
Han says to Leia, "Hey, how long did you know Luke was your brother?"
Leia, "Oh, I don't know, always I think."
Han, "Huh, thats funny, remember when we were stationed on Hoth?"
Leia, "Yeah."
Han, "Remember, when I saved Luke and brought him back?"
Leia, "Yeah."
Han, "Remember when we first saw him after he got out of the bacta tank?"
Leia, "Honey, where are you going with this?"
Han, "Well it's always been bothering me, but if you always knew he was your brother, why would you have made out with him?"
Leia, "Funny you should mention that..." She gets on the intercom. "Hey Luke can you come in here?" Turns to Han. "You ever ride a tricycle?"

bigbarada
09-17-2009, 10:31 PM
I always assumed that Leia was talking about Padme when she described her "real mother." At least, until I saw Ep3 and realized that Lucas botched the story so badly that there is no chance that we will ever get a logical continuity out of any of it.

2-1B
09-17-2009, 11:12 PM
I'm with JabbaJohn, it's really not a big deal. ROTS isn't breaking continuity with ROTJ.

Luke could FEEL there was something "familiar" about Dagobah.
Leia could FEEL her mother...but she didn't give descriptions, in fact she clarifies it as "images...feelings" which is pretty vague to me.

I find it hilarious that people zero in on this allegedly huge plot hole in ROTS but don't say a peep about how silly it is that Yoda is watching Luke from planets away and Luke feels the familiarity with the place in a vague way. So how does that make sense?

Are there EU sources/novelizations stating clearly that Leia's mom dragged her around in luggage? Yes.
Are there EU sources/novelizations stating clearly that Luke's uncle was actually Obi-Wan's brother? Yes.
Is it possible to fill in the gaps between these movies with more than one option? Certainly.

If Owen was Obi-Wan's brother, then Luke calling him "uncle" was not accurate. He's more of an uncle if he's at least a step-uncle, such as the story turned out. Or he could have been an uncle in a Mafia sense, too. There, 3 plausible explanations that all work. lol

El Chuxter
09-18-2009, 12:09 AM
I figured "somehow I've always known" was something she didn't entirely mean literally since she was completely taken aback, but based on the way the two have always gotten along, even when it became obvious she had feelings for Han. She wasn't completely BS'ing, but I've always (even pre-prequel) understood it as, "Well, now that you tell me, it's not a huge surprise."

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-18-2009, 12:40 AM
I figured "somehow I've always known" was something she didn't entirely mean literally since she was completely taken aback, but based on the way the two have always gotten along, even when it became obvious she had feelings for Han. She wasn't completely BS'ing, but I've always (even pre-prequel) understood it as, "Well, now that you tell me, it's not a huge surprise."
Why is it that you think she didn't mean that part literally but that she DID literally mean the parts about her mother (apart from the "real" part)? You're going both ways so much Katy Perry should write a crappy song about you. :p

El Chuxter
09-18-2009, 01:53 AM
Heh heh heh. :p

I meant it always sounded like a response from someone who's so totally taken aback that it's not entirely the way she meant to phrase it. The "somehow I've always known" never rang true to me. I'm speaking prior to the prequels; it just sounds almost nonsensical. Combine it with the shocked expression on her face, and it's always seemed like her trying to put into words the fact that the revelation came out of left field, is a huge shock, and, yet, seems to sort of make sense and explain their bond. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't make sense taken at face value; if she always knew he was her brother, what was with the tongue-wrestling in ESB?

By contrast, when she's asked about her mother, Luke specifically asks about her "real mother." He's obviously preoccupied about something, but hasn't sprung anything crazy about them being the twin kids of a genocidal Sith Lord. She's just answering honestly, and the way she answers indicates she understands he means her birth mother (or, at least, the woman she believes was her birth mother). Then he says he never knew his real mother. But the way in which he asks makes it clear that he knows, even though it's never spelled out how, that he has to clarify it's her (believed to be) birth mother, as opposed to someone else she usually refers to as her mother.

Droid
09-18-2009, 01:34 PM
When Luke asks about Leia's real mother it is clear he is wanting to learn more about his birth mother, who he now knows was Leia's birth mother. He already knew about his dad and wanted to know more about his mom, so he asked Leia.

And that is who Leia is talking about, her biological mother.

And ROTS makes that all a mess.

El Chuxter
09-18-2009, 02:01 PM
Well, the ROTJ novelization made clear that, prior to settling on Alderaan and being raised as a princess, Leia was on the run with her unnamed birth mother for a few years, and has a specific memory of hiding in a suitcase to avoid detection at one point.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-18-2009, 05:52 PM
Combine it with the shocked expression on her face, and it's always seemed like her trying to put into words the fact that the revelation came out of left field, is a huge shock, and, yet, seems to sort of make sense and explain their bond.
She didn't look that shocked. That came when Luke revealed Vader was his father. I think she always knew, given the fact that she said, "I've always known." :D


Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't make sense taken at face value; if she always knew he was her brother, what was with the tongue-wrestling in ESB?
Irvin Kershner didn't know they were related. George maintains that it's not that bad, and remember that Leia was only doing it to make Han jealous. Don't you think George would have gotten rid of it by now if he thought it was so nasty?


But the way in which he asks makes it clear that he knows, even though it's never spelled out how, that he has to clarify it's her (believed to be) birth mother, as opposed to someone else she usually refers to as her mother.
Which is also done so people don't think she's talking about Breha, but apparently it didn't work. :p


Well, the ROTJ novelization made clear that, prior to settling on Alderaan and being raised as a princess, Leia was on the run with her unnamed birth mother for a few years, and has a specific memory of hiding in a suitcase to avoid detection at one point.
The novelizations say a lot of things that aren't considered canon anymore. I know you'll attribute that to George being an ******* for not reading the novelizations, but we know he doesn't pay attention to EU (and the extra stuff in the novelizations is EU). If she mentioned any of this in a film, then I'd say it's valid.

Rocketboy
09-18-2009, 06:54 PM
The novelizations say a lot of things that aren't considered canon anymore. I know you'll attribute that to George being an ******* for not reading the novelizations, but we know he doesn't pay attention to EU (and the extra stuff in the novelizations is EU). If she mentioned any of this in a film, then I'd say it's valid.But the novelizations were based directly on Lucas' scripts, so the (unnamed) Padme and Owen/Obi-Wan stuff was straight from Lucas.
But since it was never mentioned in the actual films (because those tidbits were deleted or dropped before filming) it ain't canon. Ostrich Syndrome - if you didn't see it, it didn't happen.

If he wanted, Lucas could have totally ignored Anakin cooking on the coals (which itself was slightly altered - the novelizations said Anakin fell into lava) and disfigured him another way since it was never revealed in the OT how exactly Anakin was injured. Nowhere does it say that Obi-Wan was the one that gravely injured Anakin.

It was also mentioned that Boba wore the armor of the Mandalorians, a group of warriors that battled the Jedi during the Clone Wars. With Episodes 2 and 3 (and probably season 2 of Clone Wars) we see this is pretty much true, just not the way we envisioned it as a Boba vs Anakin type of battle.

2-1B
09-18-2009, 08:10 PM
It was also mentioned in the ROTS script that Baby Leia opened her eyes and smiled at Padme.

El Chuxter
09-18-2009, 11:43 PM
The novelizations say a lot of things that aren't considered canon anymore. I know you'll attribute that to George being an ******* for not reading the novelizations, but we know he doesn't pay attention to EU (and the extra stuff in the novelizations is EU). If she mentioned any of this in a film, then I'd say it's valid.

I wouldn't say he's an *******, but it is pretty lazy to say, "I've got this awesome story! I'm making it into a movie, and I want you to write the novelization. Here's my original script. I get approval over the novel," then allow the novels to be seen as gospel truth for an entire generation, and then come back, claim to have never read the novels, and produce an entirely new backstory, all the while claiming it's been the plan all along even though the facts don't back that up.

Bel-Cam Jos
09-19-2009, 10:09 AM
Chux, for someone who's stopped reading the ink-on-wood-pulp called EU lately, you've come up with some interesting plot lines I don't recall reading. :rolleyes: Suitcase...

Once I saw the end of ROTS (spoilers below), I figured Mr. Lucas WANTED us to think that "real mother" would be Padme. The "just memories" and "sad" lines would relate to Padme's angish and eventaul death during childbirth. Since Breha is supposedly still alive when Alderaan is destroyed, Leia would've known her for at least most of her 17/18/19/20 (??) years.


It was also mentioned in the ROTS script that Baby Leia opened her eyes and smiled at Padme.And the Polis Massa doctor said, pointing to Padme's stomach, "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought."

2-1B
09-19-2009, 03:16 PM
And the Polis Massa doctor said, pointing to Padme's stomach, "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought."

I think someone said it to Anakin, too...

Phantom-like Menace
09-23-2009, 09:53 AM
Are we just trying to force it to make sense within the story? Or are we willing to allow that George Lucas didn't at all think this even kind of through?

If we're just trying to force it to make sense within the story, good luck, because we're going to have to come up with a complete lack of sense to try to make sense of it. First, Luke was very specific that he didn't mean any nanny, adopted mother, au pair, or fairy godmother. If Leia wasn't very certain she was talking about her birth mother, it seems far easier to say, "Nothing really," rather than to start talking out of her ***. There's no reason Leia shouldn't know well and full the complete history of her life after Bail and Breha adopted her. There'd be pictures, family videos, complete histories to aid her in remembering exactly what Breha was like, and everyone would be completely up front with her that that woman was not her birth mother. Heck, Leia might even have a picture of Breha on her person. Leia: "She looked like this." Luke: "No, stupid, that's your adopted mother." The only way I can see to rectify the situation is to assume that Leia had some reason to lie about remembering her mother (shame?) and didn't have enough respect for Luke's earnest request to level with him and say she didn't remember her.

It's far easier to believe that twenty years later, Lucas decided that for story purposes Padme would suddenly become an irresponsible parent and feel sorry for herself to death and leave her children to whomever, because she doesn't care.

Maybe Leia was ashamed to tell Luke she learned her mother didn't care enough about her children not to **** away the possibility of raising them rather than dying for no reason while pining for a psychopath.

Droid
09-23-2009, 12:42 PM
It's far easier to believe that twenty years later, Lucas decided that for story purposes Padme would suddenly become an irresponsible parent and feel sorry for herself to death and leave her children to whomever, because she doesn't care.

I agree with you completely.

The only thing I'd offer if I was trying to defend the movies is that Padme may have known if she survived Anakin would come for her and the twins. Maybe she knew the only way to keep them hidden would be if she was dead and Anakin could not sense her through the Force.

But I agree it is stupid that she believes there is still good in Anakin and has two children to care for and just packs it in and wills herself dead.

bigbarada
09-24-2009, 11:30 PM
Are we just trying to force it to make sense within the story? Or are we willing to allow that George Lucas didn't at all think this even kind of through?

If we're just trying to force it to make sense within the story, good luck, because we're going to have to come up with a complete lack of sense to try to make sense of it. First, Luke was very specific that he didn't mean any nanny, adopted mother, au pair, or fairy godmother. If Leia wasn't very certain she was talking about her birth mother, it seems far easier to say, "Nothing really," rather than to start talking out of her ***. There's no reason Leia shouldn't know well and full the complete history of her life after Bail and Breha adopted her. There'd be pictures, family videos, complete histories to aid her in remembering exactly what Breha was like, and everyone would be completely up front with her that that woman was not her birth mother. Heck, Leia might even have a picture of Breha on her person. Leia: "She looked like this." Luke: "No, stupid, that's your adopted mother." The only way I can see to rectify the situation is to assume that Leia had some reason to lie about remembering her mother (shame?) and didn't have enough respect for Luke's earnest request to level with him and say she didn't remember her.

It's far easier to believe that twenty years later, Lucas decided that for story purposes Padme would suddenly become an irresponsible parent and feel sorry for herself to death and leave her children to whomever, because she doesn't care.

Maybe Leia was ashamed to tell Luke she learned her mother didn't care enough about her children not to **** away the possibility of raising them rather than dying for no reason while pining for a psychopath.

I agree, it makes more sense to just say that Lucas dropped the ball when it came to telling a logical, cohesive story.