PDA

View Full Version : Whats with Anti-Background character sentiment from longterm adult collectors??



Devo
12-05-2009, 03:35 PM
As the thread title says. I see a lot of dismissiveness from presumably mature collectors about background characters like Willrow hood or certain cantina patrons saying that they are 'unnecessary'. I just don't understand it. What are you guys buying at this point if not those? If core characters are your only interest then would it not be a better idea to purchase the larger scale figures which are all more articulated and more detailed? At 1/6th scale its a rare thing to see a background character produced so it seems to me this is a more appropriate collecting area for those who laugh at the Willrow Hoods and Yarnas of the 3 3/4 line. And these are generally the best figures! Its the core characters Hasbro constantly screw up. What is the appeal of the 3 3/4" line for you guys if not its great diversity, its willingness to delve deep?

Mad Slanted Powers
12-05-2009, 03:54 PM
The impression I get is that people feel that figures like that aren't good for the line. When figures like Yarna and Breha Organa pegwarm, it makes it harder for other figures to get put on the pegs, and makes Hasbro less likely to make other obscure characters. Thus we get the rabid anti Jocasta Nu sentiment. They seem to think that these figures will cause the line to end before they get the figures they really want. I don't think that will happen if they space them out and don't overproduce them.

DarkJedi5
12-05-2009, 03:59 PM
I've got mixed feelings on the topic. As a kid and to this day, some of my favorite Star Wars figures where background aliens. And more and more recently Hasbro has done a very good job on bringing these guys into the plastic fold. That said, I do occasionally question their selections. Brainiac and Leesub Sirln were not at the top of my cantina list and I never would have asked for a Yarna or Willrow Hood. The deal is that Hasbro can't just make the figures we want and work their way down a priority list. If they did that, after a few years the line would be nothing but dregs and would die. Now, all things must come to an end at some point but mixing in the less requested figures with the really good stuff we're more likely to see those figures that make everyone happy.

And for the record, I have never skipped a single carded unique Star Wars figure and probably never will. Even stuff from EU sources that I don't like find a home in my collection because it allows for the stuff I do want to get made. Besides, I've got an idea for a Willrow Hood passing out ice cream in a Jabba's Palace dio with Yarna as his number one customer.

Ji'dai
12-05-2009, 03:59 PM
I don't have any problem with background characters being produced at all. In fact, those obscure characters from the movies and Expanded Universe are the only things that really interest me and keep me collecting these days. After 30+ years of buying Star Wars stuff, I'm tired of core characters. It's the totally new, never-before-produced figures that keep me coming back.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-05-2009, 04:19 PM
I don't think anyone is against background characters altogether - has anyone had anything negative to say about the choices from the ROTJ wave (aside from strange choice Malakili, who actually turned out really well)? I just don't think too many people were clamoring for Leesub Sirln, who is hardly in the movie at all. Aside from the joke factor, Willrow Hood is frankly not all that interesting-looking. He's a fat guy in a tan jumpsuit carrying a white appliance. I think the sentiment is, with six movies chock full of interesting designs, why this guy?

Since some people have mentioned the EU stuff, it could all go away right now and I wouldn't shed a tear. The material has led to some good figures but also some just damn weird things too (the Crimson Empire set and Rebel logo TIE immediately spring to mind).

I get excited for any well-done figure. But to me, something like a great slave Leia is more interesting any day of the week than a great Leesub Sirln.

RENDAR LIVES
12-05-2009, 05:07 PM
As the thread title says. I see a lot of dismissiveness from presumably mature collectors about background characters like Willrow hood or certain cantina patrons saying that they are 'unnecessary'. I just don't understand it. What are you guys buying at this point if not those? If core characters are your only interest then would it not be a better idea to purchase the larger scale figures which are all more articulated and more detailed? At 1/6th scale its a rare thing to see a background character produced so it seems to me this is a more appropriate collecting area for those who laugh at the Willrow Hoods and Yarnas of the 3 3/4 line. And these are generally the best figures! Its the core characters Hasbro constantly screw up. What is the appeal of the 3 3/4" line for you guys if not its great diversity, its willingness to delve deep?

For one, the small scale allows for more vehicles, playsets, and shelf space. I really don't have room in my small apartment to display all my stuff and they are pocket sized wich makes it easier for my kids to bring their SW toys places.

For two, who wants any SW figures if they can't have the main ones like Luke and Vader? That's like a PB&J sandwich with out the PB&J wich is just bread. There are certain characters that if I didn't have them it would be worthless to have any others. Some are iconic and would make great stand alone figures for the casual SW fan but many wouldn't even matter to them.

For three, I would much rather have a character with major importance to the saga like say Jacen Solo rather than a charcter that was seen onscreen for 3 seconds and their entire biography is 1 or 2 paragraphs. Would you rather have a bunch of nobodys like Willrow running down a hall for your diorama or the battle of Hoth? I know people have there preferences and I have mine, but look at it from the point of veiw of someone who doesn't know every on screen characters story like my girlfriend. She knows Boba Fett but has no idea who Bossk or Wicket is or Wedge is. Even if I had all my "essential" characters I'd still by the minor ones like Nien Nunb or troop build before a cantina alien or some idiot running down the hallway on bespin. Lets just face the fact that most SW fans aren't even as big of nerds as we are.

Lastly, I do get sick of all the ROTJ lukes. I can't keep up with them. It's like a new one pops out every year and it's not always an improvement. Same with other characters like Kenobi and Anakin. So I try to be more selective and get the definitive versions.

So in a nutshell I am not buying much at all at this point. I am protesting because I refuse to be a consumer *****. If Hasbro can really tell what people are buying then they will know I want my damn comic packs and EU! As far as core characters, I think I have the best versions of most characters already because as you say they constantly screw them up and as I stated, it's rarely an improvement.

RENDAR LIVES
12-05-2009, 05:21 PM
I don't think anyone is against background characters altogether - has anyone had anything negative to say about the choices from the ROTJ wave (aside from strange choice Malakili, who actually turned out really well)? I just don't think too many people were clamoring for Leesub Sirln, who is hardly in the movie at all. Aside from the joke factor, Willrow Hood is frankly not all that interesting-looking. He's a fat guy in a tan jumpsuit carrying a white appliance. I think the sentiment is, with six movies chock full of interesting designs, why this guy?

Since some people have mentioned the EU stuff, it could all go away right now and I wouldn't shed a tear. The material has led to some good figures but also some just damn weird things too (the Crimson Empire set and Rebel logo TIE immediately spring to mind).

I get excited for any well-done figure. But to me, something like a great slave Leia is more interesting any day of the week than a great Leesub Sirln.

That's a good point. I have nothing against the background characters, they just aren't a priority to me.

The new Leia figure is far better than I expected. I got one for my daughter and now want one for myself. I just hate how R2-D2 is almost as tall as her and the OTC Boush version.

Devo
12-05-2009, 05:53 PM
Well if you want EU fair enough. That kind of answers my question of 'what would you/do you buy instead of the background characters. Thats what you're still in the hobby for. I wasn't even thinking of EU actually. I've sometimes got the impression on this and the otheR Site (is that what we officially call RS here or am I stealing someone's patent?) that some collectors want to see nothing but core characters so they can be done with it.

However, to me, a collection comprising only core characters would be a tad boring. Theres no real diorama potential, you're just lining figures up on a shelf. If I wanted to just do that I'd be buying higher end figures not these little things with oftentimes ugly articulation, poor paintjobs and no resemblance to the actors.

RoonStones
12-05-2009, 05:54 PM
Well if I can put my two credits in....

Background characters have been part of the Star Wars figure line since the Kenner days. Hammerhead, Walrus Man, Snaggletooth, Power Droid anyone? It took us almost 20 years to get a Tarkin figure, but Snaggletooth is released in the second wave in 1978 and you don't even really see him outside the Holiday Special. Even the bounty hunters from ESB were "background characters", though they tend to be the most sought after figures.

With that said, I also agree with the sentiment that background characters help stimulate continued interest in a line that dedicated collectors would have ceased buying a long time ago if it were just remakes of Lukes and Vaders. There's only so many variants of a Malibu Stacy with a new Hat that can be released to a consuming public. These figures, particularly Cantina and Jabba Palace aliens are great for dioramas and playsets and I've almost always found myself purchasing characters from any of them. However, I do think that releasing background characters for the prequels has a number of drawbacks.

First, these characters don't have, in my opinion, the same type of nostalgic pull that OT chraracters have. I have little to no interest in Renaussance Faire-looking no names from Naboo, nor do I have any attachment to the 8 million varieties of Padme outfits. To me, that smacks of milking the market, especially if these characters are humans. I don't know, but background aliens can be used anywhere. Background humans, particularly in ostentatious outfits, are limited in usage.

Second, EU figures are usually hit or miss. Unless one has read the (comic) books, or played the video games, these figures remain obscure, though they tend to be released in limited numbers. The Clone Wars line on the other hand is, in my opinion, a complete waste of space, and I've had more of my share of disappointing encounters of reaching the toy section of Walmart, Toys R Us or Target, only to find the CW line is a complete series of peg warmers.

Third, at some point, the figure line is going to be saturated. There's basically two types of SW customers. Those who have been buying the line for decades but have finally come to realize they're running out of room, don't need repeat figures, or have lost interest in a line that's releasng figures of Star Destroyer Controller #2 and Cantina Thug #4. The other type are those temporary kids who want a few figures like Anakin, Obi Wan, Luke, and Vader and that's about it.

Whatever the case, I'm personally a fan of particular types of background characters, and while I'll pick up a Willrow Hood (OT), I'm going to pass on Jocasta Nu (NT). Obviously there's only so far Hasbro can go before the market is completely saturated - there's Lobot the background character, and there's Willrow Hood the background character. It took us nearly 30 years to get a Captain Needa, but we haven't seen a re-release of Sim Aloo or Classic Klaatu.

El Chuxter
12-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Nothing here. I just think they need to base production on what the background character is. A cool-looking alien with a laser rifle? Heavy numbers. A fat woman in a bikini with a glass? Much smaller numbers.

I also think they should stop re-doing the core characters. I'd rather there be one Vader who's perfect and gets re-released every six months or so than have two new, not-quite-there Vaders per year. I can see costume changes, but, really, how many basic Hans can you release when the Cantina one from 1999 was pretty bloody close to perfect? "This time he comes with just the chestplate and helmet from the Stormtrooper armor, so you can re-create that off-screen split second when he was removing the armor!" Sorry, not going to bite.

RENDAR LIVES
12-05-2009, 06:14 PM
Well if you want EU fair enough. That kind of answers my question of 'what would you/do you buy instead of the background characters. Thats what you're still in the hobby for. I wasn't even thinking of EU actually. I've sometimes got the impression on this and the otheR Site (is that what we officially call RS here or am I stealing someone's patent?) that some collectors want to see nothing but core characters so they can be done with it.

However, to me, a collection comprising only core characters would be a tad boring. Theres no real diorama potential, you're just lining figures up on a shelf. If I wanted to just do that I'd be buying higher end figures not these little things with oftentimes ugly articulation, poor paintjobs and no resemblance to the actors.

What? That sounds insane to me! Granted I'd like to buy definitive versions of my favorite characters but not to be done with it. Like I said, there are certain characters that take priority to me. Even then there are tons of other things I want and things they add to the saga every year.

It would be boring wich is why I like the expanded universe so much. It moves on and has fresh ideas and characters. But also as I said most folks don't know more than what they see onscreen and even then it's not wall characters that they notice. This is why it is such a good idea to space EU and obscure characters so that our preferences can be made by riding on the backs of kids and casual collectors preferences.

RENDAR LIVES
12-05-2009, 06:25 PM
Nothing here. I just think they need to base production on what the background character is. A cool-looking alien with a laser rifle? Heavy numbers. A fat woman in a bikini with a glass? Much smaller numbers.

I also think they should stop re-doing the core characters. I'd rather there be one Vader who's perfect and gets re-released every six months or so than have two new, not-quite-there Vaders per year. I can see costume changes, but, really, how many basic Hans can you release when the Cantina one from 1999 was pretty bloody close to perfect? "This time he comes with just the chestplate and helmet from the Stormtrooper armor, so you can re-create that off-screen split second when he was removing the armor!" Sorry, not going to bite.

The new trooper armor han is different than the commtech one if that's the one you are referring to. I think that Han was the best myself if not a tad small and outdated articulation wise.

So are you suggesting nothing but a line of acessory sets and Saga Legends? Because the casual consumer doesn't want EU or background characters and the collectors want a character with every acessory for every scene ever.

morpheus282
12-05-2009, 06:46 PM
I think it's all a matter of opinion. To me, characters like Hrchek Kal Fas are just more visually interesting than Leesub or Willrow Hood. Yes, all have about the same amount of screen time, but I can't see kids (or collectors for that matter) having much fun with Leesub outside of making her the Empire's call girl. I don't ever recall seeing anyone asking for her, unlike Jocasta Nu who I personally think will sell as well as turd popsicles.
Characters like Hermi Odle, Ephant Mon, and random skiff guards and pilots will always sell better than some alien that was hidden behind another alien in the cantina merely because they're more visually interesting than others. It's these background characters that will keep everyone interested without forcing Hasbro's upper management to start cutting the tooling budget due to poor sales.

In order to keep the kids interested, we need to keep Vader, Luke, and Han on the shelf. In order to keep the collectors interested, we need more diverse characters. There's plenty of these to go around that would sell fairly well - but please no more Yarnas. I can see parents buying a new Oola complete with movie realistic costume malfunction before they'll bite on another Yarna type figure.

I have bought several background characters over the years, but I just can't see buying a guy in an orange suit with a beer gut and an ice cream maker just because he was in ESB for 2 seconds.

Neuroleptic
12-05-2009, 06:52 PM
I'm not anti back ground characters at all. They're the more interesting figures these days, like several have said. However, every store here still has a few pegs full of yarna with her glass, and choked full of clone wars clone troopers. I think the problem is that they just make too many of each figure. So if two of em don't sell all that great, every store in the area has half it's shelf space taken up with two or three figures.

Some times less is more.

clone157
12-05-2009, 07:04 PM
Gotta weigh in here. I am a passionate troop builder. I feel it is important to be able to help Hasbro afford to make figs that I also collect. I have a great Cantina scene and Jabba's palace. These are those aggressive background characters that Hasbro kept telling us about. These flesh out a rough, dangerous galaxy that is the heart of Star WARS. Wilrow Hood, Yarna, not so aggressive. I love the EU and constantly look forward to comic pack releases, especially alien pilots for Rogue Squad. I feel big H has mismanaged this line with a few poor choices and some lack of foresight. They had some poor choices in Xizor and, IMHO the Marvel colored line (same figs, normal colors would have worked better). In addition, I feel that H's greed is coming back to haunt them. There is a limit that they should put on the amount of a wave sold to each retailer. They sold too many exclusive comic packs to Wal-mart to the point that I really didn't see much of the normal line there this year. I feel that this also happened to the Legacy collection when the blue/white change over happened at the launch of TCW. On a side note, I, like many, have an army of Vaders and Black-clad Lukes. I use those in a storyline I am working on with the lukes as darkside clones commanding the army of cyborgs (vaders) all led by Concept Anakin. That said, I don't need any more of either.

Devo
12-05-2009, 07:06 PM
This question we've sent off to Hasbro kind of ties in with this topic-

Q: Recently, you gave an answer about Malakili and Willrow Hood that they were to be released in the same quantity, "the lowest of the fall releases, 30% lower than the lowest-run figures from 2005 until Spring 2008". We know Hasbro policy is to not talk hard numbers, but could you at least give us percentages on those types of "hardcore collector-interest" figures as they stand against the most popular and thus heaviest run figures in Legacy, as well as Saga Legends, and even Clone Wars? And heck, while we're at it, how much higher than the Malakili floor was Yarna's run? We hardcore collector types are always curious about how much risk the brand takes on our limited-interest figures vs. more mainstream entries, and it'd be helpful to inform us why it's more complex to run the line than some collectors' short-sighted arguments of "just make that guy and everybody will buy it".

With so many differing opinions and preferances - some collectors who don't care about film-based background characters at all, some who want only the most prominent and frequently named ones, some who want absolutely all of them but in a particular order, and others who'll take any&all of them in any order as long as they do get made (me) - its clear that Hasbro must have a hard time trying to run the line.

Old Fossil
12-05-2009, 08:36 PM
I like background characters from the OT. From the PT, not so much. That being said, I still passed on Leesub Sirln. I never bought the giant mantis from the Cantina, despite numerous opportunities. Yet, I bought Pax Bonkikk and Rum Sleg at the first opportunity.:rolleyes:

I recently passed on a perfectly good Imperial Scanning Tech, yet I snapped up the comic pack with Grand Admiral Thrawn earlier this year.

I'm a fickle beast when it comes to collecting.

bigbarada
12-05-2009, 10:03 PM
I think Hasbro has to constantly balance keeping collectors happy with keeping kids happy. Kids are still the primary market here, so we have to remember that these are toys first and foremost. Keeping that in mind, I think that interesting looking and aggressive background characters should take priority over some random guy in an orange jumpsuit whose campaign to get made into an action figure started out purely as a joke.

I'll bring up the Skiff Guards again, because not only are they interesting looking, but they are aggressive AND they directly interacted with the core heroes during a primary onscreen action sequence. However, we've still not gotten a new Skiff Guard in over 10 years now. These guys are perfect candidates for action figures because they appeal to both kids and collectors; but Hasbro has only now been paying attention to them. So it is a little frustrating to see characters who are such "no-brainers" when it comes to being made into action figures ignored in lieu of some silly internet "Ice Cream Maker Guy" prank.

Also, I agree with JabbaJohnL on the EU stuff. The sooner it all goes away the better, as far as I'm concerned. I don't even really buy Prequel stuff anymore (I did buy Rum Sleg to use as an OT character, and the Concept Ki-Adi just to get his droid part).

Maerj2000
12-05-2009, 10:14 PM
I think it's all a matter of opinion. To me, characters like Hrchek Kal Fas are just more visually interesting than Leesub or Willrow Hood. Yes, all have about the same amount of screen time, but I can't see kids (or collectors for that matter) having much fun with Leesub outside of making her the Empire's call girl.

Not to contradict you or anything but my 2 year old daughter loves Leesub and grabs her out of the Cantina set up everytime she enters the Star Wars room. She shares her drink with all the other figures...including droids!

El Chuxter
12-05-2009, 10:39 PM
The new trooper armor han is different than the commtech one if that's the one you are referring to. I think that Han was the best myself if not a tad small and outdated articulation wise.

So are you suggesting nothing but a line of acessory sets and Saga Legends? Because the casual consumer doesn't want EU or background characters and the collectors want a character with every acessory for every scene ever.
Yeah, I know he's different, but he's really unnecessary. We have a few ANH Hans that are good enough to be considered definitive. Tossing in a couple of weird accessories is a strange way to market a new Han. Why not, if they felt the absolute need to re-do Han as opposed to re-releasing another (and that great POTJ Han was re-released a few bazillion times), why not just get him 100% right?

As for accessory packs, it might not be a horrible idea, but I'm referring mainly to putting an end to substandard resculpts. Do the figure, get him right, include the accessories. I could even see new accessories in re-releases, if they aren't cost effective to include initially. Don't waste the time, effort, production costs, and space in the line on new figures we already have a bazillion sculpts of, unless it's absolutely perfect.

sonofsokol
12-06-2009, 12:15 AM
It really depends on the figure to me...
I am likely to buy a Willrow Hood, but would never buy a Jeremoch Colton for example. After the third or fourth time seeing that figure on the pegs I couldn't help but imagine the following scenario: I see some 8 or 9 year old kid going to Toys-R-Us with his grandma to pick out a Star Wars guy for his birthday present. I see the kid running to the Star Wars aisle, spying the Jeremoch Colton figure, grabbing it off the pegs and jumping up and down with excitement. Then I see the kid's grandma picking up one for herself cause "that Mr.Colton is such a hottie":love:

When it comes down to it, I would rather buy a cool EU character from a video game like Bastila Shan or Darth Sion than some guy who was on screen for fractions of a second. There are always exceptions to the rule, but that is how I see it.

morpheus282
12-06-2009, 12:31 AM
Not to contradict you or anything but my 2 year old daughter loves Leesub and grabs her out of the Cantina set up everytime she enters the Star Wars room. She shares her drink with all the other figures...including droids!

I'm glad I'm wrong and there is a kid that enjoys the Leesub figure. My daughter loves Star Wars but due to the problems finding any Legacy product lately she hasn't seen Leesub yet. If she has to have it, I'll eat my words and buy it.

As far as production numbers of these less kid-friendly characters, it seems like we may have inadvertently gotten an answer to the problems finding Legacy. If Malakili was produced in lower numbers but is still packed at one per case, doesn't that mean we'll see less cases and therefore have a harder time finding Legacy figures?

AmanaMatt
12-06-2009, 01:45 AM
As a mature collector myself, I love the cool, background characters. Yarna, Willrow, Amanaman...all background, all cool. How many clones do we have to get before we get one background character? For every ten clones released, we get one maybe two background characters.....!

Diversity is what makes the SW line unique

RoonStones
12-06-2009, 02:06 AM
When it comes down to it, I would rather buy a cool EU character from a video game like Bastila Shan or Darth Sion than some guy who was on screen for fractions of a second. There are always exceptions to the rule, but that is how I see it.

I'll second that. While I'll probably pick me up a Willrow if I see him, I'd be committed to hunting down KOTOR figures. Though I don't know if we can actually classify Bastilla, Carth, or Brianna as "background" characters.

Which raises another question: would EU characters be "background" or "ancillary" characters? If one thinks about it, Kreia had more dialogue than many of the core characters!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-06-2009, 02:38 AM
As far as production numbers of these less kid-friendly characters, it seems like we may have inadvertently gotten an answer to the problems finding Legacy. If Malakili was produced in lower numbers but is still packed at one per case, doesn't that mean we'll see less cases and therefore have a harder time finding Legacy figures?
I'm not sure if this is true or not. The ROTJ wave seemed to ship fairly heavily to Targets, at least. Remember, the Organas were packed two to a case (meaning those cases were at least one-third pegwarmers right off the bat). But it might not work with more popular figures, like Commander Cody or Concept IG-88, who I still haven't seen despite having seen the ROTS wave here and there.


As a mature collector myself, I love the cool, background characters. Yarna, Willrow, Amanaman...all background, all cool. How many clones do we have to get before we get one background character? For every ten clones released, we get one maybe two background characters.....!

Diversity is what makes the SW line unique
Yes, but in the same vein, you've got to realize that different collectors like different things. You might not like clones, but I definitely do, and the fact that they always sell through leads me to believe that many others like them as well. The fact that they can repaint or re-release figures like clones and other main characters means the line stays afloat so we can get around to more obscure background characters that you like. For instance, by now, it probably costs Hasbro next to nothing to make basic AOTC clone troopers from the SA mold, and yet I've bought several (maybe 15 or so) of that mold; I will never buy two Willrow Hoods, Yarnas, or even Rum Slegs.

As collector support decreases, the line has to rely on kids and casual collectors to pick up the slack; in a small collection, you have to realize that most people are going to want Vader, Obi-Wan, and troopers, not Hrchek Kal Fas. Without main characters and army builders, this line would be dead. People often cite the Simpsons figures, which relied too heavily on secondary characters without adequate Bart and Homer figures and the line died. The same thing would happen here.


Which raises another question: would EU characters be "background" or "ancillary" characters? If one thinks about it, Kreia had more dialogue than many of the core characters!
Sure, but she only appeared on one video game that was released on one system played by far fewer people than have seen any of the SW films. I had no idea who she was until I just looked her up. I think the comic packs line was the best way to deliver EU figures since it gave them context in the form of a second figure as well as a comic book so the general buying public could actually know these characters. Now that we've started to get novel figures with Jacen and Jaina, I wonder how far that will go. The idea of basing an action figure off of a character that doesn't even exist in a visual medium (aside maybe from a book jacket) is a bizarre notion.

Devo
12-06-2009, 12:52 PM
Which raises another question: would EU characters be "background" or "ancillary" characters? If one thinks about it, Kreia had more dialogue than many of the core characters!

I wouldn't classify them by 'background' character. 'Background' should literally mean 'in the background', hence, of the films. However EU figures are similarly targeted at a limited audience I expect. If that audience is more or less limited I couldn't say, I would be biased towards the film characters myself.

In this thread though I was referring to the film background characters specifically.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-06-2009, 01:17 PM
Star Wars is kind of unique. If I were to see figures of obscure characters from some other movies, I'd probably be wondering, "who the heck would buy this?" Star Wars is such a huge phenomenon and has tons of dedicated followers, as indicated by all of the people that frequent the many collecting sites. Plus, even some casual fans probably recognize some of the more prominent background characters, such as Cantina aliens. I agree that Willrow Hood is kind of ridiculous when you think about it, but I think it's kind of cool that a figure like that could get made. In a sense, it is a true "Fan's Choice" figure. It started as a joke, and kind of took off from there. Sort of a true grassroots thing.

morpheus282
12-06-2009, 01:45 PM
I'm not sure if this is true or not. The ROTJ wave seemed to ship fairly heavily to Targets, at least. Remember, the Organas were packed two to a case (meaning those cases were at least one-third pegwarmers right off the bat). But it might not work with more popular figures, like Commander Cody or Concept IG-88, who I still haven't seen despite having seen the ROTS wave here and there.

I'm not completely sure that I've hit on the answer, but you have to admit the logic does make a little sense. Malakili has to be packed at least one per case, same as the others. At 12 figures per case, this means that we have one each of the new sculpts and a total of four repacks in an astromech BAD wave, one each of new sculpts and six repacks in a protocol droid BAD wave. If Hasbro only produces half the number of Malakilis as they did Yarna, logic would say that they're reducing the entire run of the initial wave. The more popular characters (Luke, Leia, etc.) would make up for the tooling budget being repacks in later waves. I've never seen the ROTJ wave outside of Target except for one case I found at K-mart. DSII Luke is being shipped in the R3-A2 wave. Ergo, I could be right...

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it until Hasbro proves me wrong. :D

AmanaMatt
12-06-2009, 04:12 PM
I am not sure where the whole, 'collector support decreasing' theory is coming from...its not like Hasbro releases sales figures to start.........a couple of SW boards would not give an accurate idea as to the true sales out there...

And yes, I agree, there are many kinds of collectors out there. I personally hate EU, and would rather have a figure that is actually from a movie than something from Star Wars book #852, but thats just me.....

So while some may feel that Willrow in figure form is 'taking away' from the 1000th Clone figure this year, I appreciate getting the obsure ones and that is what keeps me in the game



Yes, but in the same vein, you've got to realize that different collectors like different things...I will never buy two Willrow Hoods, Yarnas, or even Rum Slegs.


You are absolutely correct. I love figures like Willrow and Yarna.............and I understand people love EU and clones. Hasbro has a balancing act they have to follow. So I'll stick to my weirdo figs and I'll leave all those clones for ya!

Devo
12-06-2009, 04:33 PM
I am not sure where the whole, 'collector support decreasing' theory is coming from...its not like Hasbro releases sales figures to start.........a couple of SW boards would not give an accurate idea as to the true sales out there...

If you're referring to Hasbros repeated assertions about 'collector pullback' well they know better than I do.

However I began this thread as my response to reading a particular comment by Bel-Cam Jos in the Best/worst figure thread -

"Worst is BRAINBOY. One more attempt to fill every single character seen that wasn't really necessary"
and also Darkjedi5 in the same thread -

"Pons Limbic “Brainiac” - Another that turned out better than I expected but I really feel like we're starting to scrape the bottom of the Cantina barrel"

And this kind of commentary is something I'm seeing a lot of now both here and on RS. So thats where I'm getting my idea of collector support decreasing. I've been collecting the line since 1996 and the continued production of these obscure characters is the primary reason for my still collecting going into 2010. "Not really necessary"? Well none of it is 'necessary'. "Bottom of the cantina barrell"? Are you kidding? If they stop now I for one won't be happy. Keep scraping!

Bel-Cam Jos
12-06-2009, 04:52 PM
Cue The Prodigy... "I'm a thread startah, twisted thread stahtah." ;)

My point was simply that I wasn't asking for him to be made, but if there's a list of EVERY SINGLE SW CHARACTER WHO WAS ANYWHERE ON SCREEN and eventually all of these will be made, that just doesn't seem necessary to me. But then, I've cut back on a lot of my SW toy collecting, so perhaps I'm just a bitter old man. :rolleyes:

AmanaMatt
12-06-2009, 04:54 PM
Yeah, bottom of the barrell is soo relative....some consider that Willow type figures, some EU.....

bottom line, all fans like something.....if Hasbro is saying there is collector pullback I dont doubt it.

If they released nothing but Clones, Clones, Eu, Clones and some Clones, then I would be done......simple as that.

DarkJedi5
12-06-2009, 04:55 PM
and also Darkjedi5 in the same thread -

"Pons Limbic “Brainiac” - Another that turned out better than I expected but I really feel like we're starting to scrape the bottom of the Cantina barrel"

And this kind of commentary is something I'm seeing a lot of now both here and on RS. So thats where I'm getting my idea of collector support decreasing. I've been collecting the line since 1996 and the continued production of these obscure characters is the primary reason for my still collecting going into 2010. "Not really necessary"? Well none of it is 'necessary'. "Bottom of the cantina barrell"? Are you kidding? If they stop now I for one won't be happy. Keep scraping!

In defense of my own statements, I'd like to say that there are a ton of cantina patrons that are much more interesting than a guy with a really big brain for a head. We still need quality remakes of Ponda Baba, Dr. Evazan, the Devorian and a better Wuher would be nice too. Aside from them here's a list of cantina figs I would consider better choices than Brainiac or Leesub Sirln:
Mosep
Reegesk
Arleil Schous
Solomahal
Bom Vimdin
and maybe Tzizvvt and Danz Borin

In my estimation Brainiac and Leesub Sirln are the bottom of the cantina barrel.

RENDAR LIVES
12-06-2009, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure if this is true or not. The ROTJ wave seemed to ship fairly heavily to Targets, at least. Remember, the Organas were packed two to a case (meaning those cases were at least one-third pegwarmers right off the bat). But it might not work with more popular figures, like Commander Cody or Concept IG-88, who I still haven't seen despite having seen the ROTS wave here and there.

Sure, but she only appeared on one video game that was released on one system played by far fewer people than have seen any of the SW films. I had no idea who she was until I just looked her up. I think the comic packs line was the best way to deliver EU figures since it gave them context in the form of a second figure as well as a comic book so the general buying public could actually know these characters. Now that we've started to get novel figures with Jacen and Jaina, I wonder how far that will go. The idea of basing an action figure off of a character that doesn't even exist in a visual medium (aside maybe from a book jacket) is a bizarre notion.

I just visited several Walmarts in my area and found several wave mixtures. ROTJ, ESB, TPM, and ROTS. I can say I found several of Lukes and Hans and Wilrow Hoods and that Faylatoni character. But there are certain ones like Slave Leia, Gungan Warrior and TPM Kenobi that I have only found 1 of each. I havent spotted Cody or the IG Concept but I know they were there at one point.

It's nice that it's the holiday season or I don't think consumers could keep up with getting 30 new figures all at once. I just see this as bad news bears for Hasbro. It tells me they are pushing things out all at once that are months behind schedule and it's gonna suffer when, 1-folks cant afford all the new figures in such a small time frame and 2-retailers are gonna send stuff back or clearance during the resets of January and February wich Hasbro will tell us it's our fault for poor sales. I always say,"prior planning prevents **** poor performance".

I'm hoping the names and the fact they are jedi will carry the Solos to sucess. There is charcter guides and the Dark Horse Invasion comic series as well but that is still a small market. Doesn't that make you worry that the majority of society relies on visual references than literature? I like the books 10 times better than the movies. Heck, ROTS the book has 3 times more to it than the movie. There is so much more they go into about the relationship between Vader and Palpatine as well as more hints to Anakin likely being created by Plaguis even though they dont flat out just say it.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-06-2009, 05:10 PM
In defense of my own statements, I'd like to say that there are a ton of cantina patrons that are much more interesting than a guy with a really big brain for a head. We still need quality remakes of Ponda Baba, Dr. Evazan, the Devorian and a better Wuher would be nice too. Aside from them here's a list of cantina figs I would consider better choices than Brainiac or Leesub Sirln:
Mosep
Reegesk
Arleil Schous
Solomahal
Bom Vimdin
and maybe Tzizvvt and Danz Borin

In my estimation Brainiac and Leesub Sirln are the bottom of the cantina barrel.Actually, I find Pons Limbic and Leesub Sirln more interesting than most of the ones you listed. When we did our last figure poll, Brainiac ranked 6th in the ANH Phase I poll. Leesub Sirln only ranked 37th.

1. Dr. Evazan
2. Brea Tonnika
3. Wioslea
4. Senni Tonnika
5. Bom Vimdin
6. Brainiac

The others on your list ranked as follows:

12. Tzizvvt
15. Mosep
16. Ponda Baba
18. Reegesk
27. Solomahal
28. Arliel Schous
34. Danz Borin


Baniss Keeg was another Cantina patron that ranked up there at #17.

DarkJedi5
12-06-2009, 05:30 PM
Actually, I find Pons Limbic and Leesub Sirln more interesting than most of the ones you listed. When we did our last figure poll, Brainiac ranked 6th in the ANH Phase I poll. Leesub Sirln only ranked 37th.

1. Dr. Evazan
2. Brea Tonnika
3. Wioslea
4. Senni Tonnika
5. Bom Vimdin
6. Brainiac

The others on your list ranked as follows:

12. Tzizvvt
15. Mosep
16. Ponda Baba
18. Reegesk
27. Solomahal
28. Arliel Schous
34. Danz Borin


Baniss Keeg was another Cantina patron that ranked up there at #17.

Problem is, those are other people's opinions. Everyone's list of favorite's would vary pretty widely. I would put most cantina patrons ahead of skiff guards where BigB would have it flip flopped. There are other figures I'd much rather see remade than some of those on my own list. I would love to see a new Lak Sivrak and cantina band member before most of the never before done figures but there's probably no way Hasbro remakes a figure that was take out of the Special Edition. We're all different and would make different choices were we running the show at Hasbro, but for the most part we probably all like the background figures.

Back to the Best/Worst Poll comments, I admitted I wasn't hot for Brainiac but I did buy him and I voted Ben Kenobi worst of that wave. I'm critical of figures like that but I will still always buy them.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-06-2009, 05:40 PM
I just visited several Walmarts in my area and found several wave mixtures. ROTJ, ESB, TPM, and ROTS. I can say I found several of Lukes and Hans and Wilrow Hoods and that Faylatoni character. But there are certain ones like Slave Leia, Gungan Warrior and TPM Kenobi that I have only found 1 of each. I havent spotted Cody or the IG Concept but I know they were there at one point.
Who's "Faylatoni"? As in Dannl Faytonni, who was released six years ago? Or are you mixing him up with Jeremoch Colton?


It's nice that it's the holiday season or I don't think consumers could keep up with getting 30 new figures all at once. I just see this as bad news bears for Hasbro. It tells me they are pushing things out all at once that are months behind schedule and it's gonna suffer when, 1-folks cant afford all the new figures in such a small time frame and 2-retailers are gonna send stuff back or clearance during the resets of January and February wich Hasbro will tell us it's our fault for poor sales. I always say,"prior planning prevents **** poor performance".
The basic figure waves, if you're going off the SDCC slides, are only about a month late each. Here's what Hasbro gave us as the ETA:
*ROTJ - early September
*ANH - late September
*ROTS - early October
*ESB - late October
So, they were always supposed to be released a lot at once, but Hasbro is rarely right on those things and the waves were each about a month late, which isn't that bad.

The semi-overload of new figures is exactly the same as it was in late 2007, as I knew it would be. Several waves more or less all at once, during the holiday season. If releasing the figures during the peak shopping season is going to sell them better, then so be it. We'll see how much stuff is hanging around after Christmas - last year, there was nothing, except Yarna (then the Organas kept shipping well after they should have stopped and we got to see them all the time, too). They won't send stuff back just a few weeks after it's arrived to shelves, you know that's ridiculous.


I'm hoping the names and the fact they are jedi will carry the Solos to sucess. There is charcter guides and the Dark Horse Invasion comic series as well but that is still a small market. Doesn't that make you worry that the majority of society relies on visual references than literature? I like the books 10 times better than the movies. Heck, ROTS the book has 3 times more to it than the movie. There is so much more they go into about the relationship between Vader and Palpatine as well as more hints to Anakin likely being created by Plaguis even though they dont flat out just say it.
I didn't mean for my words to be taken as a statement on society as a whole. And it's dandy that you like the books better. All I'm saying is, since an action figure is something that exists in a physical 3D space, it's just a little odd for them to be taking inspiration from novels, where the images exist solely in readers' heads (and in these characters' cases, in a few illustrations). The visual medium of SW is what drew us all in in the first place, and it's still where it works best (to me), and I think that's where the figures should come from. (Though I'll still be buying the EU wave.)

RENDAR LIVES
12-06-2009, 06:27 PM
Who's "Faylatoni"? As in Dannl Faytonni, who was released six years ago? Or are you mixing him up with Jeremoch Colton?


The basic figure waves, if you're going off the SDCC slides, are only about a month late each. Here's what Hasbro gave us as the ETA:
*ROTJ - early September
*ANH - late September
*ROTS - early October
*ESB - late October
So, they were always supposed to be released a lot at once, but Hasbro is rarely right on those things and the waves were each about a month late, which isn't that bad.

The semi-overload of new figures is exactly the same as it was in late 2007, as I knew it would be. Several waves more or less all at once, during the holiday season. If releasing the figures during the peak shopping season is going to sell them better, then so be it. We'll see how much stuff is hanging around after Christmas - last year, there was nothing, except Yarna (then the Organas kept shipping well after they should have stopped and we got to see them all the time, too). They won't send stuff back just a few weeks after it's arrived to shelves, you know that's ridiculous.


I didn't mean for my words to be taken as a statement on society as a whole. And it's dandy that you like the books better. All I'm saying is, since an action figure is something that exists in a physical 3D space, it's just a little odd for them to be taking inspiration from novels, where the images exist solely in readers' heads (and in these characters' cases, in a few illustrations). The visual medium of SW is what drew us all in in the first place, and it's still where it works best (to me), and I think that's where the figures should come from. (Though I'll still be buying the EU wave.)

The ROTJ wave only started showing up in early November and the rest have just now pooped up here in december. I'd say that's more than a month behind schedule while the Decmber releases have been pushed back to February and March.

The point is the shelves will be empty and the retailers wont order more until after February. So they are squeezing a 2 quarters into one month and that doesn't sound good for business imo. Retailers will clearance overstock that doesn't sell so they have empty shelves for the reset new or not. It is ridiculous but it happens every year.

I know how you meant it. I was merely making an observation about how lazy or dependant or complacent society has become and it just promotes mediocrity overall. Kinda like people *****ing about toys online but still buying everything that comes out. Y'know? :razz:

Tycho
12-07-2009, 04:45 PM
Background characters are extremely important to me and why I continue to purchase figures.

I'm interested in:

-background characters to complete filling out my scenes right down to the moisture farmers walking around Mos Eisley, but up to figures that might be more impressive and recognizeable like Bom Vimdim or Torryn Far, Nyrat Agira, and the 6-armed waiter droid on the refugee freighter.

-"B-list characters" made in each outfit they appeared in like Bail Organa in his air speeder pilot outfit he wore when Zett Jukasa was killed at the Jedi Temple during Order 66.

-yet-unmade versions of main movie characters even in very obscure outfits - especially like all of Padme Amidala's wardrobe changes, with a concentration on never-made-before-outfits, instead of resculpts.

- expanded universe versions of the biggest main characters directly taken from major novel or comic book sources, such as Han Solo in his 50's, and Princess Leia as New Republic Chief of State or Jedi Apprentice, in her 40's.

- expanded universe figures of major EU characters like Nomi Sunrider, or alternative versions of now-finally-made EU characters like Jaina Solo (but as an X-wing pilot) or Corran Horn (as a Jedi Knight).

I DO NOT get excited over resculpts nor especially repaints, but I understand their place in costing-out the production of this line, and their even greater importance in tougher economic times. However, I'm not buying these figures.

I keep a carefully monitored list of what I have and what I need - as well as what yet-unmade-characters I want (like the Sith war droids used in the Empress Teta System during The Sith War - of which I want an army). Then I buy what I already determined I've planned for and don't get distracted, straying from the course.

RENDAR LIVES
12-07-2009, 05:36 PM
I DO NOT get excited over resculpts nor especially repaints, but I understand their place in costing-out the production of this line, and their even greater importance in tougher economic times. However, I'm not buying these figures.

One has to wonder, if these really do help cost out the line or if it was all new figures would people be more likely to collect a whole series for a year. Economic times not withstanding. Hasbros success in previous years from POTF up to ROTS seemed pretty damn successful. But ever since we've been flooded with repaints, and retools.

JediTricks
12-07-2009, 08:12 PM
For me, I find the problem is about balance. I'm in it for the main characters, the technology (accessories), the vehicles, and the stuff that adds to the flavor of those. Background characters are necessary, but right now it feels heavily out of balance. Something like Breha Organa has no place on shelves when we still after 14 years don't have an adequate ANH Leia and virtually nobody was asking for the figure.

That's another thing, there's this small but vocal subset of collectors who ask for figures they don't actually have great interest in, either they're asking on a lark or they are completists, but the only point of their figure is to ensure they get 1 of everything to put away in a box, or because it's a goofy weird thing and funny to ask for junk.

Without a balance of what will appeal beyond the small collector market or what can be propped up by more popular figures in a wave, you end up with a line that has no broad market appeal which is the only thing keeping it afloat, and then it just flounders trying to keep from drowning. When balance is achieved, it's easy for collectors to pick and choose the figures they like no matter their source, but when it's out of balance, it puts the line at risk and can set off a chain reaction that causes bigger and bigger problems when it's really bad.

In my mind, the filter should be about what's iconic, not about what's background or what's main character. If someone can look at a well-made SW figure and say "that's from Star Wars, that's cool", it doesn't matter to me what source it is. But more and more of these background characters are 5th-stringers because we have so many existing background figures in modern quality that they have to dig into these "who is that, what is he doing here?" figures, or "oh brother, another alien Jedi guy in a skirt" that just feel like a total drag.



I also think they should stop re-doing the core characters. I'd rather there be one Vader who's perfect and gets re-released every six months or so than have two new, not-quite-there Vaders per year. I can see costume changes, but, really, how many basic Hans can you release when the Cantina one from 1999 was pretty bloody close to perfect? "This time he comes with just the chestplate and helmet from the Stormtrooper armor, so you can re-create that off-screen split second when he was removing the armor!" Sorry, not going to bite.First off, there's a common perception that we're somehow constantly getting buried in remolds of main characters that are pointless. The last Vader was July of '08, and was the first to have a modern-quality removable helmet. Does that mean we should stop getting Vaders? Not at all, there are 4 movies' worth of Vader costumes that are different from each other, and Hasbro hasn't really nailed any of the capes right, not to mention various little stuff like removable hands and helmets and Vader figures that can pose well.

Second, that POTF2 Han Solo was good for its time but cannot hold up now, it's shabby by comparison. The idea that Hasbro should stop trying to get main characters right just because they did one that was popular a decade ago makes no sense to me. Nobody is forcing you guys to buy them, and these figures are NEVER the ones that are pegwarming as they keep casual consumer interest in the line going, so it seems like a non-problem (except for those of us who would like them to develop figures that actually LOOK better, but that's a separate argument).

The real problem with this new Walter Matthau, I mean, Han Solo is that it's a crappy-looking Death Star Han Solo coming off a previous crappy-looking Death Star Han Solo. I understand the need for Han in the Stormie belt, I really do, but to screw up the head sculpts TWICE?!? And Hasbro needs to stop using VOTC parts, they are crappy. Fans were way too overly elated with those figures when they first came out, but the reality is they aren't that good, and they aren't that modern except for a few small wins like Chewie, so to see VOTC Han parts back and looking even worse than ever is a waste of everybody's time.



I think it's all a matter of opinion. To me, characters like Hrchek Kal Fas are just more visually interesting than Leesub or Willrow Hood. Yes, all have about the same amount of screen time, but I can't see kids (or collectors for that matter) having much fun with Leesub outside of making her the Empire's call girl. I don't ever recall seeing anyone asking for her, unlike Jocasta Nu who I personally think will sell as well as turd popsicles.Turd popsicles in winter! :thumbsup: I pretty much agree here. Who remembers where Leesub was in the film? Who wants to reenact her awesome scenes? Nobody. The only reason she exists is for completists and the rare diorama builder, so the rest of us have to hope she is made in small enough numbers that she doesn't pegwarm.



I like background characters from the OT. From the PT, not so much.That is an interesting point, I think I feel the same way too. With the OT, many of the background guys feel organic even when bizarre. Yet with the PT, the diversity of the background guys feels incredibly forced, staged (this is also how I feel about Jabba's Palace, to a degree). I like buying the PT vehicles and tech, but the background characters, not as much, there has to be something special about them that the OT gets away with more naturally.



I am not sure where the whole, 'collector support decreasing' theory is coming from...its not like Hasbro releases sales figures to start.........a couple of SW boards would not give an accurate idea as to the true sales out there...Hasbro may not release their sales figures, but they do track them, and they are the ones who say that collector support has fallen off severely ever since the TLC line started (though I would argue it was the long pause from the Indiana Jones line that really started the trouble).


And yes, I agree, there are many kinds of collectors out there. I personally hate EU, and would rather have a figure that is actually from a movie than something from Star Wars book #852, but thats just me.....This I don't get. The EU is extremely diverse, some of it is way out there, some of it is very close to the source, some of it is clever, some of it is stupid. How can a SW fan hate all of the EU? To me, it's about picking and choosing what works for my type of collecting, so I'll buy Talon Karrde as soon as I see him, but I'd pass up Grand Moff Trachta every time.



If you're referring to Hasbros repeated assertions about 'collector pullback' well they know better than I do.

However I began this thread as my response to reading a particular comment by Bel-Cam Jos in the Best/worst figure thread -

"Worst is BRAINBOY. One more attempt to fill every single character seen that wasn't really necessary"
and also Darkjedi5 in the same thread -

"Pons Limbic “Brainiac” - Another that turned out better than I expected but I really feel like we're starting to scrape the bottom of the Cantina barrel"

And this kind of commentary is something I'm seeing a lot of now both here and on RS. So thats where I'm getting my idea of collector support decreasing. I've been collecting the line since 1996 and the continued production of these obscure characters is the primary reason for my still collecting going into 2010. "Not really necessary"? Well none of it is 'necessary'. "Bottom of the cantina barrell"? Are you kidding? If they stop now I for one won't be happy. Keep scraping!IMO, it's about how iconic and exciting a figure is. I loved the Lak Sivrak figure, but even though I'm not a fan of the SEs, I also dug his replacement, Ketwol because it's a fun toy - yet when Hasbro released Voolvif Monn, I was totally disinterested. Even though I'd take a new Ponda Baba over any PT Jedi any day, Pons Limbic is just a boring-looking guy that we don't get much of a look at, source isn't the only thing. He doesn't do anything special, and the figure itself is equally non-special, it's best feature is that for Cantina completists, he's another body to cross off the list, but it's not like he's exciting or keen in any other way. Same with Trinto Duaba, he's an alien guy, the end, the only real appeal that figure has outside of cantina-completists is that he comes with Dice Ibegon who is far more interesting and iconic.

El Chuxter
12-07-2009, 08:25 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to resculpts, if they were always an improvement and done to the utmost quality possible at the time. You might disagree, but that POTJ Cantina Han (and the Bespin version) far surpass any subsequent Hans, including the overpriced VOTC one.

Really, if the quality always improved, and represented a necessary improvement relative to the quality difference in both versions of a figure and the relative importance of the character (why three Bossks?), I'd be totally cool with it.

Devo
12-07-2009, 08:29 PM
In defense of my own statements, I'd like to say that there are a ton of cantina patrons that are much more interesting than a guy with a really big brain for a head. We still need quality remakes of Ponda Baba, Dr. Evazan, the Devorian and a better Wuher would be nice too. Aside from them here's a list of cantina figs I would consider better choices than Brainiac or Leesub Sirln:
Mosep
Reegesk
Arleil Schous
Solomahal
Bom Vimdin
and maybe Tzizvvt and Danz Borin

In my estimation Brainiac and Leesub Sirln are the bottom of the cantina barrel.

The patrons you mention probably would be more interesting than Brainiac or Leesub, and perhaps appeared more prominently. I trust that Brainiac was there but I still haven't spotted him and Leesub had miniscule screentime even by cantina standards. However this is what I love about it, that Hasbro would make such figures. It suggests to me that the more visible cantina aliens yet to be made are pretty much a lock. That is unless an overabundance of the more obscure crashes the line however I have faith that this won't happen.

The job facing Hasbro is to mix the obscure with the even more obscure so that at the end of it all there won't be just a glut of majorly obscure characters left to do having done all the more visible backgrounders, and there are those of us who would care if they weren't done. Obviously Bel Cam Jos wouldn't and thats fair enough I suppose. :D This is why I hope Hasbro get to some of the plain ol' human cantina patrons soon such as Rycar Ryjerd, Boelo, Swilla Corey etc. I guess expecting every single one of them - even the ones whose faces can only just about be seen behind someone elses shoulder - would be ridiculous but I'd certainly like a few of the more prominently seen 'boring' humans to show that the cantina wasn't all wierd looking aliens.

Likewise when it comes to Jabbas palace guards, Sailbarge guards and Skiff guards. I hope they mix in a few of the plain human guards with the alien guards - guys like Nizuc Bek, Fozec, Taym Dren Garen, Gailid, Velken Tezeri - because as human characters go these guys are pretty interesting yet it would be tempting for Hasbro to not bother with them because of the wealth of even more interesting alien guards. If they were to leave all these human guards to the end its likely they wouldn't bother making them at all. Thus I want to see them sooner rather than later. I would feel these scenes are incomplete without them.

Tycho
12-07-2009, 09:46 PM
One has to wonder, if these really do help cost out the line or if it was all new figures would people be more likely to collect a whole series for a year. Economic times not withstanding. Hasbros success in previous years from POTF up to ROTS seemed pretty damn successful. But ever since we've been flooded with repaints, and retools.


Well, an impulse buyer fits a few possible descriptions:

1) Someone who doesn't own ANY figures that decides they'll start picking them up - either as a serious collecting effort, or to get a few, or to make a specific scene: they have to have Han, Luke, Obi-Wan, Vader, Padme, etc. and they would not have them already. Then they could add Bail Organa or whomever afterward.

2) A troop builder is self-explanatory

3) A kid can recognize characters to various degrees. When I was little in the 80's, I very much wanted Admiral Piett and knew who he was. A kid new to the hobby surely knows Darth Vader or he wouldn't likely be interested. At the very least "this guy" is the person in black who commands all the cool troopers in white armor. Any kid age 4 or younger, couldn't have ANY figures until they were old enough, so for those who don't have stuff saved for them, having the main-stays available works - and it sells other figures. If you owned NOTHING, having a specialized Battle Droid might not be something you care about - but posing Obi-Wan in combat against it might have more appeal so both figures sell.

4) a parent, grandparent, girlfriend, friend, spouse - whomever buying a gift, would not decide to go to the store because the Star Wars fan they know and love would want a Hrchek Kal Fas. They'd think: I'll buy a SW character. Luke Skywalker is a SW character, right?

In 1996 the cool thing was to buy Greedo to fight Luke Skywalker (for kids' play). Today, to keep sales up for people who have Greedo (like you and me), the cool thing is to buy Hrchek Kal Fas to fight Luke Skywalker.

Anyway, these 4 figure sales described above, usually trigger multiple sales for Hasbro and its retail partner.

Meanwhile, I tolerate them because I want Nyrat Agira (she is a background girl wearing a thong in Club Outlander) and I want new cases to continue to ship so that one day Hasbro can place her in there.

Yeah, I won't buy Vader any more, but so? As long as he sells to someone, I may get Nyrat Agira.

Tycho
12-07-2009, 10:01 PM
I want to add that diorama builders are not "rare," as JediTricks posted.

It actually isn't proven to me either way whether we comprise a significant number of the purchasing fans of this line or not.

However, I don't want my angle on the hobby to paint me as being part of an insignificant group.

Those of you involved for other reasons can have me contributing to sales of this line that you hope to see continue for your own reasons, and appreciate me for my help too. Or you could label diorama builders as insignifcant, but try to imagine NOT having us to buy figures that will trigger case refreshments in your stores.

As far as Hrchek Kal Fas: I'm buying EIGHTEEN (18) of him to use in dioramas galaxy-wide.

Leesub? Well I think I could only justify getting 3 of her.

Why was she even made? They can't make the Tonnika Sisters.

Tycho
12-07-2009, 10:19 PM
I also agree with DEVO, that some of the human extras need to be made.

There's only 1 smuggler-looking fellow from the cantina that I'm really interested in.

However Fozzic and Taym Garen from Jabba's are of more appeal to me.

I like the Prequels, and would also like dioramas from Coruscant to reflect that it was a majority-HUMAN-planet, and some of the exotic girls from Club Outlander would work representing that (hence Nyrat Agira).

If you're one of the Star Wars diorama builders, you might be interested in representing POPULATIONS in your displays, not just the folks at the Death Star Conference Table, as cool as that is, too.

I'd say continue "going for it," Hasbro. I'm always excited by what they're doing and what they're planning next.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-07-2009, 10:22 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to resculpts, if they were always an improvement and done to the utmost quality possible at the time. You might disagree, but that POTJ Cantina Han (and the Bespin version) far surpass any subsequent Hans, including the overpriced VOTC one.

Really, if the quality always improved, and represented a necessary improvement relative to the quality difference in both versions of a figure and the relative importance of the character (why three Bossks?), I'd be totally cool with it.
There wasn't a POTJ cantina Han, but the 1999 POTF2 Commtech cantina Han was the last all-new plain-clothes Han until the 2004 VOTC one. The others were all variations on a theme, with the current Han being an update to the 2001 POTJ Death Star Escape Han. (The POTJ Bespin Han is, sadly, still the best version of him in that outfit, only because no proper attempt has been made to resculpt it.) At the time of both of their releases, I thought the Commtech and VOTC Hans were perfect. As the technology changes, you see figures with added articulation or better sculpting and you start to want other characters redone to match the current quality (well, YOU don't, but you know what I mean). I'm not sure by which criteria youo're grading the Han figures - how is the older one superior, exactly? Because it's fatter?

The three Bossks, again, represented bringing a popular character into the most up-to-date fashion. 1997 Bossk had the standard six points of articulation. 2004 Bossk was updated in that regard, which fans had started to ask for. 2007 Bossk completely blows them both away in terms of sculpt, paint, and articulation, and I have to assume you don't own it if you don't think that it's simply an amazing figure. Characters like Bossk get updated because, as JT said, they're iconic and instantly recognizable as something from Star Wars. He's a hit with (most) collectors, and he's a hit with kids and casual consumers, so why not make him as good as he can be?


Without a balance of what will appeal beyond the small collector market or what can be propped up by more popular figures in a wave, you end up with a line that has no broad market appeal which is the only thing keeping it afloat, and then it just flounders trying to keep from drowning. When balance is achieved, it's easy for collectors to pick and choose the figures they like no matter their source, but when it's out of balance, it puts the line at risk and can set off a chain reaction that causes bigger and bigger problems when it's really bad.
Wouldn't it be appropriate if an Anakin Skywalker figure was the one to restore balance to the line? :D

El Chuxter
12-07-2009, 11:00 PM
Characters like Bossk get updated because, as JT said, they're iconic and instantly recognizable as something from Star Wars. He's a hit with (most) collectors, and he's a hit with kids and casual consumers, so why not make him as good as he can be?

But when you have three Bossks, each one of the best figures available at the time of release (and, face it, the 1997 (?) one is better than some current figures, lack of articulation notwithstanding), but we have yet to get a truly great Death Star Luke, or any Leia that really looks like Carrie Fisher, there's a problem.

I'm also of the school of thought that believes more articulation does not necessarily equal a better figure. Unnecessary articulation has actually ruined some figures in the past few years to the point where I've passed on figures I'd been excited about until I saw them (like SOTE Leia).

dindae
12-08-2009, 03:37 PM
I'm definately a "check of the list of all characters seen on the the screen" collector. I used to be more passionate about which figures were coming around the bend but slowly as those figures get made I find it harder to get really excited at who they are going to pick. There are only a handful I can say I would be noteably more excited than random ewok like Sgt. Doallyn, Bom Vimdin, and Cliegg Lars. So I can totally understand why Leesub and Jermoch Colton are not exciting people. I don't really see us hitting the bottom of the barrel until we really have to consider the moisture farmer as a viable option fo a cantina figure but we are getting there fairly quickly. Once the BAD pack in is done I will probably pass on more figures then I am currently. I will say that I tend to buy most resculpts as I do see improvements or I like the pack-ins.

JediTricks
12-08-2009, 04:18 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to resculpts, if they were always an improvement and done to the utmost quality possible at the time. You might disagree, but that POTJ Cantina Han (and the Bespin version) far surpass any subsequent Hans, including the overpriced VOTC one.

Really, if the quality always improved, and represented a necessary improvement relative to the quality difference in both versions of a figure and the relative importance of the character (why three Bossks?), I'd be totally cool with it.If the quality improved, I'd always be on board. Since it's not always the case, I'm not always on board. But it doesn't hurt to not buy the intermediate figure, those appeal to the casual collectors whether or not we show support.

POTF2 Cantina Han, there is no POTJ version. So, how in your mind do those Cantina and Bespin Han figures far surpass the VOTC figure? I'll grant you, we've had poor luck with Han Solo figures, there's not a single one I'd say is tops of the pops, but those 2 figures you cite (and you're not alone, a lot of collectors are with you) are limited articulation and pose, extremely limited sculpts, and have limited paint. Beyond nostalgia, what makes them good? The fact that they didn't suck when they came out? What makes them stand up against modern-quality figures in general? I mean, you could say EV-9D9 is the best figure of her ever, but that doesn't change that she's a figure that wouldn't hold a candle to any modern droid figure.

Bossk in '04 and again in '07 is about a shift in quality and focus. The '04 Bossk has a great head sculpt but it's on the POTF2 body, they did what they could with what they had at the time, and 3 years later they delivered better. It's not ideal, but they're both good figures. It's like POTJ IG-88 and VTAC IG-88, both good steps in the evolution. The bounty hunters are special cases, iconic without being main guys, it's not like we're seeing 2 Mon Mothma's every 3 years. :p



Wouldn't it be appropriate if an Anakin Skywalker figure was the one to restore balance to the line? :DOh man, that was terrible. :p The funny thing is, they haven't done a single prequel Anakin that looks like the guy, so it REALLY could happen, and then Lucas would say that's what he meant all along. ;)




But when you have three Bossks, each one of the best figures available at the time of release (and, face it, the 1997 (?) one is better than some current figures, lack of articulation notwithstanding), but we have yet to get a truly great Death Star Luke, or any Leia that really looks like Carrie Fisher, there's a problem.Ok, I really have to find out how you can get to this "better than some current figures" claim. The only thing that '97 figure seems to have going for it, aside from nostalgia, is a decent headsculpt. The body sculpt is soft and blocky, for the time it was very good but by today's standards it's a no-show.

As for main characters, it's a lot easier to capture the flavor, the essence of those secondary guys who we aren't as familiar with without being a dead-on sculpt. That '97 Bossk you tout is pretty far off the mark compared to its '04 and '07 counterparts, each more accurate than the last, yet we instantly accept it as being who he is because it gets the broad strokes so well. The same can't be said for Leia and Luke and them, they are characters we are far more familiar with visually.

And god likeness Leia figures:


POTF2 CTC "hood up" Leia
POTJ Bespin Escape Leia
POTJ Deluxe Slave Leia
OTC Bespin Gown Leia (paint is poor, but sculpt is excellent)
TSC Boushh Leia

El Chuxter
12-08-2009, 08:42 PM
C'mon, you really think 1997 Bossk isn't better than, say, Cankles Leia? I don't display him as my main Bossk, simply because I have another who's better. But if those two subsequent Bossk figures didn't exist, or I didn't have either them, 1997 Bossk looks fine displayed with newer figures. The 2004 Bossk is definitely good enough, with 2007 Bossk being completely superfluous. Maybe he is better, but not better enough to have been released so soon, especially at double the price.

Droid
12-08-2009, 09:28 PM
IMO, it's about how iconic and exciting a figure is. I loved the Lak Sivrak figure, but even though I'm not a fan of the SEs, I also dug his replacement, Ketwol because it's a fun toy - yet when Hasbro released Voolvif Monn, I was totally disinterested. Even though I'd take a new Ponda Baba over any PT Jedi any day, Pons Limbic is just a boring-looking guy that we don't get much of a look at, source isn't the only thing. He doesn't do anything special, and the figure itself is equally non-special, it's best feature is that for Cantina completists, he's another body to cross off the list, but it's not like he's exciting or keen in any other way. Same with Trinto Duaba, he's an alien guy, the end, the only real appeal that figure has outside of cantina-completists is that he comes with Dice Ibegon who is far more interesting and iconic.

Who do you think really should still be made from the cantina that has never been made? (A Evazan redo and probably the catina band are high up there as good resculpts.) Though I'd buy anybody they still make from the cantina - and there are a few interesting aliens left - the list of folks who got a real prominent screen shot in the movie is getting short. We know the story with the Tonnikas. Garouf Lafoe is the snitch that tells the Sandtroopers to come in and he is seen at the bar, but he's human so I don't know that they'd ever make him. I really think perhaps Rycar Ryjerd, the little person, is the most PROMINENT unmade character. He is the only character from the head of the bar never to be made. However, I doubt Hasbro plans to make any humans from the cantina. As I said, the list is growing short.

Probably the most likely never been made characters are Bom Vimdin, the Fly, the Colonel, Mosep, Melas, the Ranat, Baniss Keeg, or the Defel, but none of them were particularly prominent in the actual film.

So as I said, JediTricks, is there anybody left from the cantina that has never been made you'd be interested in?

Tycho
12-09-2009, 10:45 PM
I just want to add my 2 cents on Han Solo, btw.

I'm a fan of what I call CommTech Han, the 1999 POTF2 figure that came with the chip and re-enacted the Cantina scene (as Han usually wears a white shirt and black vest anyway).

We first got the 1995 Han dressed this way, and he had a totally flush-painted-on vest and a tiny waist (finally articulated there though - as opposed to vintage) and he had apparently been doing steroids with Mark MacGuire. In '96, Han would see his Hoth and Carbonite outfits released, and in '97, Bespin and Endor. '98 really didn't see a Han in this outfit from ANH released, that I recall, and then in '99 we got this way better-looking sculpt.

I'm not sure it looked like Harrison Ford, but it was good-looking like a stereotypical hero, and he had an added-on hard plastic vest rather than a paint job of one. Maybe 1 arm and 1 leg had more articulation added to it, but the gun could fit in the holster for a true classic Han Solo look.

At this point I was satisfied (mind you I liked the 1995 just because it existed and was far superior to the 1978).

So once this Han 1999 hit, I was happy and was more concerned about whether we'd get Hem Dazon or Dannik Jericho (which we did and now I've moved my attention on to Bom Vimdim).

I understand Han Solo figures will continue to help the line sell by offering something to those who haven't collected in the first place.

And it's fine if they make a better Han Solo than the 1999 CommTech.

Some of you collectors will appreciate him and buy him.

I'm not waiting for this Han Solo figure, nor would I buy him.

I'm waiting for Reegesk the Ranat.

Droid
12-09-2009, 10:52 PM
I'm a fan of what I call CommTech Han, the 1999 POTF2 figure that came with the chip and re-enacted the Cantina scene (as Han usually wears a white shirt and black vest anyway).

I'm waiting for Reegesk the Ranat.

I totally agree, Tycho! I never needed a better ANH Han than that one. It is currently in my cantina diorama right now.

I also was fine once they made farmboy Luke with the T-16 from the Comtech line. The second ANH Leia (called all new likeness) was good enough for me. (Cue JediTricks explaining to us in great detail what was wrong with those figures and why some follow ups were better!)

Bom Vimdin and the Ranat are also the two cantina aliens I most want right now!

Mad Slanted Powers
12-10-2009, 12:00 AM
I totally agree, Tycho! I never needed a better ANH Han than that one. It is currently in my cantina diorama right now.

I also was fine once they made farmboy Luke with the T-16 from the Comtech line. The second ANH Leia (called all new likeness) was good enough for me. (Cue JediTricks explaining to us in great detail what was wrong with those figures and why some follow ups were better!)

Bom Vimdin and the Ranat are also the two cantina aliens I most want right now!

The Commtech was a great figure for its time, and is still a pretty good figure. However, that elbow sticking out really bothers me. So for me, the VOTC is the best ANH Han. I'll still buy new versions, but I'm happy with that one.

That Commtech Luke was also a pretty good figure as well. While it doesn't hold up quite as well as the Commtech Han, there have been so many missteps in remaking ANH Luke that it still remains one of the better ones.

The "new likeness" Leia was outstanding compared to the first POTF2 version. She's a bit tall, and I would prefer soft goods for the skirt to give her more mobility.

Tycho
12-10-2009, 12:05 AM
How was the 2006 Saga Tatooine Luke? I think it came with his poncho on him, but it might have just been the CommTech Luke underneath that?

I don't believe I bought him - I probably wouldn't have unless it was for the BMF (and thus I would have picked up the 2006 figure in 2008 for a trade or something).

Anyway, as for Leia, I liked the Princess Leia Collection ANH Leia with the full soft-goods dress. That was always the way to go for Leia. Yeah, a super-articulated version of her like this under the softgoods dress could improve her even more. I don't think the VOTC Leia did this. I'm not sure as I didn't buy much of any offerings from the VOTC collection - though I admired them when I was in the stores.

Again, with Han Solo, I'll stick by the 1999 CommTech! Only more articulation would improve it. As noted, I like the head sculpt, whomever it looks like.

bigbarada
12-10-2009, 12:20 AM
The Commtech was a great figure for its time, and is still a pretty good figure. However, that elbow sticking out really bothers me. So for me, the VOTC is the best ANH Han. I'll still buy new versions, but I'm happy with that one.

I agree, while he was a huge improvement over the 1995 Han Solo, as the years progressed Commtech Han's articulation grated on me more and more. One of my pet peeves for this line is inconsistent or asymmetrical articulation. Meaning that if the right arm has an elbow swivel, then the left arm MUST have one as well. So any figure that doesn't have symmetrical articulation is automatically ranked lower on my list of "definitive-ness."

VOTC Han Solo is the perfect Han Solo in my book. I've heard all the complaints about the figure (too skinny, non-removable vest, iffy likeness), but I'm willing to overlook them just like fans of Commtech Han are willing to overlook his faults.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-10-2009, 12:42 AM
How was the 2006 Saga Tatooine Luke? I think it came with his poncho on him, but it might have just been the CommTech Luke underneath that?

I don't believe I bought him - I probably wouldn't have unless it was for the BMF (and thus I would have picked up the 2006 figure in 2008 for a trade or something).That was a good figure, especially with the accessories. However, he looked a bit weird, kind of like he had makeup on.


Anyway, as for Leia, I liked the Princess Leia Collection ANH Leia with the full soft-goods dress. That was always the way to go for Leia. Yeah, a super-articulated version of her like this under the softgoods dress could improve her even more. I don't think the VOTC Leia did this. I'm not sure as I didn't buy much of any offerings from the VOTC collection - though I admired them when I was in the stores.I thought the PLC Leia was good too, however I ended up only giving her a 1 in the Character Study thread because I had trouble getting her to stand on her own, and the hood seemed backwards to me. Other than that, I think she looks better than the new likeness figure. The VOTC Leia was great except that the face looked more like Padme from the first Clone Wars series. The ESB version is better, but both versions have small legs and feet with no pegholes.

Cane_Adiss
12-10-2009, 11:51 AM
Well first off I'm going to say that Leesub Sirln has been high on my wishlist for awhile now, and she's probably my favorite Legacy figure to date. I know of others who wanted her, (and Breha Organa for that matter) and were excited by her release. To say there was no demand for either figure is absurd. Leesub was a finalist in last year's Rebelscum figure poll, and not by my votes alone. Breha did decently in this sites figure poll as well though I myself never voted in her favor.

I get excited by any OT alien that gets released. I understand that for some people, a characters visibility onscreen is what makes or breaks the figure choice. For others however, the multitude of behind the scenes images that exist for characters with less visibility on screen is enough to make a character desirable. Such is the case with Leesub, Cane Adiss, Utris M'toc and the Mon Calamari Dancer for me. All are/were high on my wishlist not because I saw them on screen and thought "oh my how iconic, I must have one!" but because of the various BTS images that brought them to my attention in the first place.

Also, I'd argue that the line is pretty balanced as it is. I don't look at Legacy as the whole piece of the pie. I'd say about one half of the Legacy line is purely collector oriented. I'd also argue that certain obscure figures like Rum Sleg, Bane Malar, Hrchek Kal Fas, Giran, Nysad and concept IG-88 have limited kid appeal as "actiony" or "villain" figures. There are kids out there that buy the aliens, I've seen it. And then you have to factor in Clone Wars and Legends, two lines that are completely kid oriented that have a small collector following as well. The new alien Jedi seem to be selling ok, and the only figures that have given me reason to worry about pegwarming so far are Saesee Tiin, Malakili and Colton. Heck I thought we'd be swimming in Whorm Loathsoms but so far he's been pretty scarce.

I'd say the split for the ENTIRE Star Wars 3 3/4'' line is about 75% kid oriented and 25% PURELY collector oriented. Legacy is certainly selling alongside the other lines.

JediTricks
12-10-2009, 03:37 PM
C'mon, you really think 1997 Bossk isn't better than, say, Cankles Leia? I don't display him as my main Bossk, simply because I have another who's better. But if those two subsequent Bossk figures didn't exist, or I didn't have either them, 1997 Bossk looks fine displayed with newer figures. The 2004 Bossk is definitely good enough, with 2007 Bossk being completely superfluous. Maybe he is better, but not better enough to have been released so soon, especially at double the price.I don't think you're being objective here. I like the SOTE Leia figure, it's not perfect, but aside from the legs, it's a decent sculpt and represents the material quite well. Bossk '97 looks like a '97 figure, it's a mixed sculpt with some good and some soft areas, I hate how the waist area looks, and the headsculpt not only is a bit inaccurate, but it looks a little wasted. It's a good figure for its time, but it's had its day. The idea that the '04 is "good enough" speaks to how little attention is paid to anything but the head sculpt. There are things like deco, articulation, body sculpt, accessories. VTAC Bossk came down the pike around the time that the whole brand shifted from simplistic articulation and sculpts into the modern line.



Who do you think really should still be made from the cantina that has never been made? (A Evazan redo and probably the catina band are high up there as good resculpts.) Though I'd buy anybody they still make from the cantina - and there are a few interesting aliens left - the list of folks who got a real prominent screen shot in the movie is getting short. We know the story with the Tonnikas. Garouf Lafoe is the snitch that tells the Sandtroopers to come in and he is seen at the bar, but he's human so I don't know that they'd ever make him. I really think perhaps Rycar Ryjerd, the little person, is the most PROMINENT unmade character. He is the only character from the head of the bar never to be made. However, I doubt Hasbro plans to make any humans from the cantina. As I said, the list is growing short.

Probably the most likely never been made characters are Bom Vimdin, the Fly, the Colonel, Mosep, Melas, the Ranat, Baniss Keeg, or the Defel, but none of them were particularly prominent in the actual film.

So as I said, JediTricks, is there anybody left from the cantina that has never been made you'd be interested in?None aside from the unproduceable Tonnikas. It's been mined out, there are no more iconic characters there, and that includes Tzizvvt & Solomahal - they are not iconic or exciting or prominent. The only thing I'd be interested in at this point are perhaps remakes of Evazan and Ponda Baba. I can't even think of another denizen that would be an interesting figure to remake. The cantina feels fairly "done", whether every background mask and CCG made-up character has been produced or not, there's no market left except die-hards for Bom Vimdin.



I totally agree, Tycho! I never needed a better ANH Han than that one. It is currently in my cantina diorama right now.

I also was fine once they made farmboy Luke with the T-16 from the Comtech line. The second ANH Leia (called all new likeness) was good enough for me. (Cue JediTricks explaining to us in great detail what was wrong with those figures and why some follow ups were better!)I don't need to explain what's wrong with them, if someone can't see it, they're stuck in "vintage collector" mode with no objectivity, none of those figures look good today. "All New Likeness" Leia is only good compared to Monkey-Faced Leia, in any other book it looks pretty stale, nearly all those POTF2 figures are like that. If Hasbro tried to market those figures today, they'd be laughed off of the market, they look cartoony with their soft sculpts and giant accessories, and often have ugly joints even when they're at "simple six".



How was the 2006 Saga Tatooine Luke? I think it came with his poncho on him, but it might have just been the CommTech Luke underneath that?Eh. It has a new headsculpt and some nice accessories, but it's the same CTC body, has a middling deco, and the new head isn't even that good, it's worsened by its paint.


The bottom line is that the main line is withering, stores aren't ordering anywhere near enough and not stocking what they do order because they don't think their customers are going to buy it. The hardcore fans say they want this and that - no matter how good a toy it looks or how iconic a character it is (either would be a reasonable criteria) - and then turnabout and don't flock to the product when it finally comes out. Hardcore fans say they want great-looking characters with fantastic poseability to best express their imaginations, yet deride any update to something like Han Solo because they already have the decade-old figure, so Hasbro cheaps out and delivers kitbashes that nobody wants and headsculpts nobody recognizes.

I'm going out to look for the ESB wave, but I bet I come back with more Clone Wars figures instead.

El Chuxter
12-10-2009, 03:52 PM
So, you'd rather re-do the better existing figures every three years or so, instead of getting characters like, say, Cliegg Lars (who should've been produced in 2002) or an update to figures that really need it, like Dr Evazan?

I'm not totally against re-doing Bossk. There've been improvements in each version, and I'm not denying that. However, relative to other characters and sculpts, Bossk would've been very low on my list of necessary resculpts in 2004, and even lower in 2007. Back to Evazan, the guy has several memorable lines, is well-liked by enthusiasts and casual fans alike, serves an important purpose in the script (showing that Obi-Wan is not just talk and exposing their presence in Mos Eisley to the Empire), and beats up our hero. And he's not been updated in, what, twelve years (not counting the repaint exclusive pack-in versions), and the figure was woefully behind the standards of even 1997. He would be light years ahead of Bossk, or Greedo, or Momaw Nadon when it comes to resculpting him.

Like I said, I'm using Bossk as an example because each sculpt has been great for the year it was released. The 1997 one is still quite good. It might not be up to 2009 standards, but we've got more important characters who are still represented only by figures that are more than a decade old and sucked when they were released. (Note I'm not complaining about the also twice-resculpted Imperial Guard, each version of which was a significant step forward, and only the 2005 version of which truly excels, or the Stormtrooper, who, though not usually drastic improvements from version to version, is one of the single most important "characters" in the series and is more deserving of slight improvements than, say, a background bounty hunter with three seconds of screen time, no matter how cool he looks.)

Tycho
12-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Hardcore fans say they want great-looking characters with fantastic poseability to best express their imaginations, yet deride any update to something like Han Solo because they already have the decade-old figure, so Hasbro cheaps out and delivers kitbashes that nobody wants and headsculpts nobody recognizes.


I think my diorama obsession qualifies me as a hardcore fan.

But look at what my hobby is: diorama building. I already have Han Solo. I've checked him off the list. I want the guy that's behind the guy that's behind Han Solo now because Hasbro's never made him before.

I'd like a good sculpt and only need the articulation that's necessary. Take Tvzzvvt for example. I just want him to stand him there and hold a drink. If he has one super-articulated arm to do that, I don't even need his articulation balanced if Hasbro needs to cut costs. I admit, it will make a superior figure for kids to play with if Tvvzzvvt is super-articulated.

As far as Han (Luke, Darth, Chewie, Leia, Qui-Gon, Jango etc) are concerned - I'm not in the market for them period. Hasbro knows this, and JT or any others that want to change this - you really can't. It's an emotionally evolved attitude that's formed for a few reasons:


I don't have space for extra Han Solo figures I'm not using
I want to spend my money on 8 or more Jaina figures, and 8 or more Jacen figures when they come out, as I don't have them and want to make many dioramas using them
I'd like Han Solo as he'd look in his 50's to be something new and go in my displays with his kids
I don't want to bother trading or selling on eBay to allieviate myself of extra figures I've upgraded. I have better things to do with Star Wars and a big life happening outside of it as well.
I think I said this, but I don't need to devote ANY space at all for a pile of old figures I'm not using any more
The 1995s etc are special to me for nostalgia reasons


I think Hasbro doesn't need to invest that much into the more recent versions of main characters. It is an easy sale for them to the audience that would buy these figures off-the-bat: newbies.

As for improvements?

Obi-Wan's evolutions figures...
Anakin's E2 Evolutions and the new improved Vader from the first BAD issue.
Padme Arena from her Evolutions
Luke Death Star II (I think he's a good figure and only a softgoods cloak's needed)
Han Stormtrooper - same

I didn't buy most of these figures (some Anakins and Obi-Wans for sure though!) but I'm really satisfied with them. I actually waited for the AOTC Obi-Wans and Anakins and didn't stockpile the earlier versions back in 2002 - so I don't have extra figures.

In 1998 I learned that Hasbro was doing resculpts this time around.

Devo
12-10-2009, 05:55 PM
I share your diorama interests, buying multiples of some characters another collector would only need 1 of. I don't go quite so far in the quantities you mention but I do buy resculpts. I just can't imagine still using a POTF2 stormtrooper or luke skywalker in my dioramas. They look massively outdated next to other figures and figures of that age are even discoloured by now. Hasbro could keep me buying farmboy lukes just to replace my old ones that are now yellow.

Tycho
12-10-2009, 06:43 PM
Strange: I don't have any yellowing figure issues.

The POTF2 1995 stormtrooper was pretty pre-posed, but done so well. You can basically adjust him for several fighting scenes and by making him left or right handed, you can take it a little further. Better figures of this trooper are necessary for standing in formation or really specialized poses, but I didn't design my early OT scenes with that in mind. I just worked within the limitations of the day (but never saw them as that).

The headsculpt on POTF2 1995 Luke is one I really always liked. I can't believe how crappy 2007's TAC figure (with moisture vaporator was - which I dub Phil Collins, Moisture Farmer - "He can feel it in the air tonight.")

As others here have noted, I think about Bom Vimdim when I think about why I want to continue buying these figures. And Bom Vimdim, Wagra Woodrata, Nomi Sunrider, a Princess Leia in her late 30's as NR Chief of State, or Taym-dren-Garen really excite me. A new farmboy Luke? Someone else would have to tell me if I saw it in the store right in front of me.

In fact, I'm one of the few here who've found the new ESB wave. I wanted Wilrow Hood and some new black Bespin Guards pretty bad.

I bought the new Snowspeeder Luke for trading (PM if you have Saurins, Bespin Guards, or Wilrow Hoods) but I've never even looked at Luke really. He's MOMC in a Wal-Mart bag on my coffee table to my right at this very moment, along with the new Zuckuss, and the other figures in that ESB wave. I can't tell you what they looked at. I even bought them but I have ZERO INTEREST in walking 6 feet to look in a bag to see what quality they might be. Like I said, PM me if you have a Saurin, Bespin Guard, or Wilrow Hood to trade.

I put a 1996 Snowspeeder Luke in my 1996 Snowspeeder. He's still there and I like him where he is. I'm all over it.

I remember the day I got the 1996 Snowspeeder. It came into a dealer store I ordered it through (got it wholesale, too) and I already had the 1996 Luke and brought him with me in my pocket to put in the Snowspeeder and I opened that vehicle in the company of those who are now long-time 13-15 year friends right in that store after I picked it up. I went to a liquor store nearby and got the batteries for it, and we all hung out there, brought over take-out lunches, and visited for several hours.

I got the 2009 Snowspeeder Luke that I'll trade on a 30 minute round trip by myself, out in the cold, made just the other night - Sunday night? And when I returned, I removed Wilrow and Bespin Guard from the bag and put that bag on the coffee table where it hasn't moved since last weekend.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-10-2009, 07:59 PM
When I first heard that Bossk was going to be in the VTAC lineup, I wasn't all that excited because we had just got an updated Bossk in 2004. However, now that I look at them, the 2004 Bossk wasn't much better. I kind of like the 1997 better except for the lack of articulation. The 2004 version has more articulation, but it is all swivel, and one of his knees is bent in a fixed pose. The 2007 Bossk blows both of the previous versions away. They shouldn't have to redo that one.

I never figured I'd have space to have all the dioramas I ever wanted displayed at once, so it never occurred to me to by so many of every figure. Also, by the time I started collecting, they had already begun making updates to older figures, so even if I had bought multiples like Tycho, I would have had better versions of the main characters than early POTF2. I don't have the skills to make a proper diorama with all the backgrounds and scenery, so my collecting is more along the lines of having my own personal museum of Star Wars figures.

Eventually, I would like to have a few iconic scenes set up. I sort of do already. I have the Jabba's Palace cardboard diorama on the hutch above my desk crowded with as many figures from the scene as I can fit. I had to put the band on the other side of the wall. In my spare bedroom, which is actually my Star Wars storage room, I have a table with the Geonosis playset and tons of droids, Jedi, clones and Geonosians crammed together in front of it. At the end of the table I have the cantina bar pieces with all the cantina figures around it. I have a round table in the corner with the Jedi Council sets put together. If I had more space, I would set these up better. I might make other scenes, but those would probably be ones that I would change from time to time so that I would have a different scene up every so often.

Along with my museum idea, I could take whatever figures aren't being used in a scene and have them displayed on shelves, either by character or by line. If I do it by character, it would be a nice way to see the evolution (or de-evolution in some cases) of a figure.

Devo
12-10-2009, 09:10 PM
I don't have the skills to make a proper diorama with all the backgrounds and scenery, so my collecting is more along the lines of having my own personal museum of Star Wars figures.

I have no skills in this regard either. I use the vehicles, playsets, cardboard backdrops etc that Hasbro gives us plus certain other things like styrofoam packaging from household appliances, egg cartons, a spare car hubcap, fake foliage from a christmas crib for endor, broken up styrofoam for snow on hoth, old Wildlife annuals with shiny black covers that look like the floor of the death star etc. Its not ideal but its better than nothing. And with more and more diversity of vehicles and figures from Hasbro year after year the better it gets, the busier the dioramas get and it kinda compensates for not having any real settings for them.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-10-2009, 10:17 PM
I just saw that this was one of the questions to Hasbro:



SSG: With the updating of Imperial trooper figures lately to have more accurate designs and sharper sculpting, the Biker Scout is so far one of those figures left out. Although one of the "vintage-style" figures, the existing Scout figure could use some upgrades including sharper armor and undersuit sculpting, a slightly larger helmet, more accurate arms including the missing elbow pads, less bulky shoulders, and better range of motion for the head, knees, torso and hips. How likely are we to see an updated Biker Scout figure like this? What would hold something like this back from being delivered in the foreseeable future?
Hasbro: A new Biker Scout is currently not in the plans as we have thought the Vintage one to be quite sharp and have kept that in the lineup, and have other troops we feel we need to focus on. We'll take another look at your suggestions for a possible figure further down the road.

I thought that the current Biker Scout is pretty good by modern standards and not in need of an upgrade. I agree with Hasbro's answer. I would try to get the most of this mold and reissue it for a while, either carded or in multipacks, and save the new tooling dollars on never been done before figures, or ones that truly are outdated and need a serious upgrade.

JediTricks
12-10-2009, 10:28 PM
So, you'd rather re-do the better existing figures every three years or so, instead of getting characters like, say, Cliegg Lars (who should've been produced in 2002) or an update to figures that really need it, like Dr Evazan?It should be on a case-by-case basis based on numerous factors. It's just that '04 Bossk got produced very late in the oldschool style, and '07 Bossk got produced early in the modern style, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's a 3-year cycle, that was a unique situation. Cliegg Lars is a boring old guy who doesn't fight, doesn't even WALK, and has a small part in 1 movie, it's not a priority action figure. It's too bad he didn't get released closer to AOTC, but it's not surprising given the Saga atmosphere of action poses and gimmicks and figures that are meant to satisfy retailers. If Cliegg had been in ROTS, you know we would have seen him. Bossk is far more evocative of Star Wars and SW collecting than Cliegg OR Evazan, it's not surprising he got a VTAC figure while not those guys.



I'm not totally against re-doing Bossk. There've been improvements in each version, and I'm not denying that. However, relative to other characters and sculpts, Bossk would've been very low on my list of necessary resculpts in 2004, and even lower in 2007. Back to Evazan, the guy has several memorable lines, is well-liked by enthusiasts and casual fans alike, serves an important purpose in the script (showing that Obi-Wan is not just talk and exposing their presence in Mos Eisley to the Empire), and beats up our hero. And he's not been updated in, what, twelve years (not counting the repaint exclusive pack-in versions), and the figure was woefully behind the standards of even 1997. He would be light years ahead of Bossk, or Greedo, or Momaw Nadon when it comes to resculpting him.That's your opinion though, it's subjective. Yes, Evazan would be nice to see updated. Would I sacrifice that Bossk to get that figure? I don't think I would. You would, I wouldn't. Neither of us are managers on the brand though, and no matter what Sophie's Choice arguments we make re Bossk vs. Dr Evazan, ultimately the guys who get paid to watch after brand health are the ones who will make that decision. We just have to voice our opinions and see who flocks to them.


Like I said, I'm using Bossk as an example because each sculpt has been great for the year it was released. The 1997 one is still quite good. It might not be up to 2009 standards, but we've got more important characters who are still represented only by figures that are more than a decade old and sucked when they were released. (Note I'm not complaining about the also twice-resculpted Imperial Guard, each version of which was a significant step forward, and only the 2005 version of which truly excels, or the Stormtrooper, who, though not usually drastic improvements from version to version, is one of the single most important "characters" in the series and is more deserving of slight improvements than, say, a background bounty hunter with three seconds of screen time, no matter how cool he looks.)I don't think the '97 figure is up to '04 standards, much less '09 standards, and I think you're looking at it through rose-colored glasses.

Whether or not you think '07 Bossk is a misstep, and I don't see how you can except through bitterness over spending on '04 Bossk, you have to admit the '07 figure is a fantastic bookend for an iconic SW collecting character, an alien bounty hunter that has captured the imaginations of collectors for GENERATIONS now with just a sneer and a growl and a reused mask and spacesuit. If the '04 figure never existed, you'd have no leg to stand on here IMO, and that undermines your entire argument.

I don't see you defending dozens of prequel Jedi whom we're inundated with over and over again despite showing limited potential on second and third outings (I'm looking at you, Ki-Adi-Mundi and Saesee Tiin!). I don't see you crowing about Leesub Sirln, whose cardback photo looks like it was taken off a magnification from an old VHS tape in order to find the BACK of the character in the film. I don't see you skipping with joy over Jeremoch Colton or Breha Organa or the Utai. I don't see you losing control of excitement over:


Willrow Hood
Major Panno
the new Ugnaughts
Trinto Duaba
Wioslea
Brainiac
Ak-Rev
Bane Malar

These are figures OT collectors should be peeing their pants with joy over from just the current line, and yet the collective reaction to them is "meh" for the most part.



I think my diorama obsession qualifies me as a hardcore fan.

But look at what my hobby is: diorama building. I already have Han Solo. I've checked him off the list. I want the guy that's behind the guy that's behind Han Solo now because Hasbro's never made him before.I've discussed this with you before, but let me put a different spin on this. You treat your figures like chess pieces, they are plastic representations that mainly are in your head, you don't care all that much what they look like, how accurate they are... WHAT POSE THEY ARE IN. That last one is my new argument. You are setting up dozens of dioramas with Han ANH, right? Yet all the '95 and '99 Han figures can only be posed a certain way. Yes, you can get creative with the '99 figure's unusual extra articulation, but ultimately he's still got that funky bent arm and legs that can't do anything but stand upright or sit in 2 very specific poses (legs down, or 1 leg on the table). You can't convey emotion or personality or reaction in your dioramas with that figure, you can't even have him look up at the Falcon.

Ultimately, for you, and a lot of collectors I suspect, these are figures to be bought, put in a box, and thought about only as abstract items, hoping that one day they might be enjoyed in a very specific manner.


As far as Han (Luke, Darth, Chewie, Leia, Qui-Gon, Jango etc) are concerned - I'm not in the market for them period. Hasbro knows this, and JT or any others that want to change this - you really can't.I don't need to, you and collectors like you have proven just how little importance they are to the brand when the bread-n-butter collectors who buy main characters leave for a year and the brand goes down the toilet the way it is now.


Luke Death Star II (I think he's a good figure and only a softgoods cloak's needed)Luke does not wear a cloak while in the DS2 outfit. It's only when he has the vest over it that he wears the cloak, and that's only on Tatooine.



I share your diorama interests, buying multiples of some characters another collector would only need 1 of. I don't go quite so far in the quantities you mention but I do buy resculpts. I just can't imagine still using a POTF2 stormtrooper or luke skywalker in my dioramas. They look massively outdated next to other figures and figures of that age are even discoloured by now. Hasbro could keep me buying farmboy lukes just to replace my old ones that are now yellow.That's what I think as well, how can someone put Luke '99 next to a modern figure without it looking like a vintage figure? Remember how old-school those Kenner vintage figures looked next to the POTF2 figs? Well, this is like that but even worse because of how good the design has been for the past 5 years.

Yellowing is fast becoming a problem in my collection as well. I've tossed out the farmboy Lukes, but there are Stormtroopers and Clones and Ep 2 Padmes that are yellowing on me, very frustrating.



The POTF2 1995 stormtrooper was pretty pre-posed, but done so well. You can basically adjust him for several fighting scenes and by making him left or right handed, you can take it a little further. Better figures of this trooper are necessary for standing in formation or really specialized poses, but I didn't design my early OT scenes with that in mind. I just worked within the limitations of the day (but never saw them as that).

The headsculpt on POTF2 1995 Luke is one I really always liked. I can't believe how crappy 2007's TAC figure (with moisture vaporator was - which I dub Phil Collins, Moisture Farmer - "He can feel it in the air tonight.")That says it all, IMO. You're satiated with the '95 Stormtrooper with its buff body, GIGANTIC gun, inaccurate design, and super-limited poseability. This figure can't have its legs moved at all, and can robotically raise or lower its slightly bent arms. That's it. Putting a mountain of these guys together looks really bad, always has for most of us, and is embarrassing next to, say, either of the modern Boba Fetts, or any modern cantina denizen figure from the last 5 years, because it looks like it's from a cheaper line, one with simpler sculpts and worthless articulation, like how GI Joe has its imitators on the pegs that never live up. The '99 Stormie isn't as bad, but it's far closer to that than to those modern figures, and it doesn't come with a stormtrooper blaster.

The only thing I can say about that '95 Luke sculpt is that it's really cheeseball in my book, and we suffered it WAY too much in POTF2. Does that mean you don't have to like it? No. But it does mean that only a willfully ignorant person would be surprised by the rest of collectordom being unhappy with it and wanting updated work.



When I first heard that Bossk was going to be in the VTAC lineup, I wasn't all that excited because we had just got an updated Bossk in 2004. However, now that I look at them, the 2004 Bossk wasn't much better. I kind of like the 1997 better except for the lack of articulation. The 2004 version has more articulation, but it is all swivel, and one of his knees is bent in a fixed pose. The 2007 Bossk blows both of the previous versions away. They shouldn't have to redo that one.I forgot, the '04 had new limbs, but the old torso. I only remembered the old torso, and remembered the limbs going with that.

Droid
12-10-2009, 10:36 PM
Willrow Hood
Major Panno
the new Ugnaughts
Trinto Duaba
Wioslea
Brainiac
Ak-Rev
Bane Malar

These are figures OT collectors should be peeing their pants with joy over from just the current line, and yet the collective reaction to them is "meh" for the most part.



I peed my pants with joy over the Trinto Duaba and Brainiac figures, though I was most excited about Dice Ibegon and the Saurin.

bigbarada
12-10-2009, 10:55 PM
Of the three Bossk figures made, only the 2004 figure was truly unnecessary. The 2007 Bossk was and still is one of the greatest Star Wars figures of all time.

I am NOT a diorama builder. I think they are a waste of time and space. You spend all that money buying the figures and all that time setting them up to recreate the scene you want.... then what? You spend the rest of your life dusting the toys off once a week? Or standing the figures back up when they fall over? I guess you could bring visitors to your home to show off your diorama, but that will only impress them once... at most. Some diorama builders claim that it's for their own enjoyment... really? Aside from the initial set up, what's fun about looking at but never touching your toy collection?

Plus, like JT said, most diorama-builders are not really diorama builders at all. They are diorama planners. Only buying toys to box up for that one day that they MIGHT have the time and space to set up their dream diorama. Do people seriously think that the end result will ever live up to the years and years of planning and anticipation?

Droid
12-10-2009, 10:57 PM
I currently have my cantina diorama set up and it absolutely delights me.

bigbarada
12-11-2009, 12:08 AM
I currently have my cantina diorama set up and it absolutely delights me.

If that diorama is still set up this time next year, then let me know if you feel the same way.

El Chuxter
12-11-2009, 12:29 AM
I'd rather have had the 1997 and 2007 Bossks without the 2004. I'm only using Bossk as an example; I don't see you arguing the merits of three Greedos or three Momaw Nadons. ;) I used to argue about the Jedi, but then I just stopped buying them.

It's not exactly bitterness that makes me question the multiple Bossks. However, they were OT figures released during an emphasis on PT figures, meaning a more deserving (however you count that) classic figure could've been seen instead of three Bossks in a ten-year period. How many Mon Mothmas, Evazans, Crix Madines, (truly unique) Wickets did we see in that same period? How many ROTJ Jabba the Hutts? For that matter, how many Ewoks, period, did we see betwee 1997 and 2007? I'm not denying each subsequent Bossk has been an improvement over the previous one and I love the character, but, really, no matter how cool he looks, he doesn't really play an important role in the film.

Mad Slanted Powers
12-11-2009, 01:11 AM
I am NOT a diorama builder. I think they are a waste of time and space. You spend all that money buying the figures and all that time setting them up to recreate the scene you want.... then what? You spend the rest of your life dusting the toys off once a week? Or standing the figures back up when they fall over? I guess you could bring visitors to your home to show off your diorama, but that will only impress them once... at most. Some diorama builders claim that it's for their own enjoyment... really? Aside from the initial set up, what's fun about looking at but never touching your toy collection?I'm kind of fascinated by miniature things. Seeing a model train setup with all the scenery and the town and everything else is really cool to look at. Something like that does take a lot of space though, but even just having Star Wars figures takes up space whether it is in a diorama, or stored in a box.


Plus, like JT said, most diorama-builders are not really diorama builders at all. They are diorama planners. Only buying toys to box up for that one day that they MIGHT have the time and space to set up their dream diorama. Do people seriously think that the end result will ever live up to the years and years of planning and anticipation?It's always good to have goals. I enjoy looking at the pictures other people have posted of their dioramas. I don't know if I could ever make anything like that, but I'll be happy just to have any sort of display that's a bit more organized than what I have now.

El Chuxter
12-11-2009, 01:13 AM
Okay, how about this perspective: why three Bossks, all of which are at least good, in the same span of time as one Ackbar, who was just okay? Everyone loves Ackbar, he's as cool an alien as Bossk, and he is far more important to the films and EU. So why one Ackbar who seems like a holdover "He-Man " 1995 figure?

Mad Slanted Powers
12-11-2009, 01:21 AM
Okay, how about this perspective: why three Bossks, all of which are at least good, in the same span of time as one Ackbar, who was just okay? Everyone loves Ackbar, he's as cool an alien as Bossk, and he is far more important to the films and EU. So why one Ackbar who seems like a holdover "He-Man " 1995 figure?

reptiles>squid

bigbarada
12-11-2009, 01:37 AM
Okay, how about this perspective: why three Bossks, all of which are at least good, in the same span of time as one Ackbar, who was just okay? Everyone loves Ackbar, he's as cool an alien as Bossk, and he is far more important to the films and EU. So why one Ackbar who seems like a holdover "He-Man " 1995 figure?

I'm with you there, we definitely do NEED an update of Ackbar.

However, Bossk is infinitely more important to the Star Wars saga than ol' lobster-chops. :p Bossk was the "Secret Star Wars Figure" you can't get more important than that. :D

El Chuxter
12-11-2009, 01:41 AM
But they needed Ackbar to know it was a trap.

AmanaMatt
12-11-2009, 01:42 AM
Yeah, the Vintage Bossk is pretty much the best figure Hasbro has ever done....

Quick story when I was a kid: I received a mail away bossk and decided to give it as an xmas gift to my friend, who in turn, had the same idea. So he got my Bossk and I received his...!

bigbarada
12-11-2009, 01:43 AM
But they needed Ackbar to know it was a trap.

Maybe if you pick on Greedo for a while and leave Bossk alone, then you'll get more of my support. :yes:

El Chuxter
12-11-2009, 01:46 AM
Aww, but the first Greedo sucked even back then, and we all knew it. ;)

El Chuxter
12-11-2009, 01:53 AM
But, then again, the third Greedo came far closer to the second than was the case with Bossk, and the third really wasn't a real improvement, just a sort of lateral movement with more joints.

JediTricks
12-11-2009, 06:43 AM
I'd rather have had the 1997 and 2007 Bossks without the 2004. I'm only using Bossk as an example; I don't see you arguing the merits of three Greedos or three Momaw Nadons. ;) I used to argue about the Jedi, but then I just stopped buying them.Let's start at the top. Nobody forced you to buy '04 Bossk. How long would an acceptable wait be in your book for a figure like Bossk to finally cast off the shackles of his POTF2 weak sculpt torso and crummy Saga arm joints? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? What's the difference? You feel gypped that you got suckered into buying a figure three times? Tell me you don't own 3 of the same figure for no army building potential first, and then tell me how that $6 plus tax really broke the bank after 3 years. I know I've bought plenty of lameo figures just once that I regret a hell of a lot more than those 3 Bossks. When they pay me back for crap like POTJ preview Clone Trooper and Tarfful and 90% of the Han Solo figures they released and every Luke Jabba's Palace that I tried to turn into a competent Luke DS2, then I'll be more receptive to your line of thought.

I can argue the merits of 3 Greedos.


Greedo 1 - classic early POTF2 figure, play fast and loose with the facts, nobody cared at the time because they were just glad to have Greedo look like Greedo a little.
Greedo 2 - one of the better CTC figures, this one undid many of the original's mistakes (small head, inaccurate body, odd pose, poor articulation) and added the nifty "shot through the heart, and you're to blame" gimmick behind the vest.
Greedo 3 - updated the previous one's mistakes (weak deco, ugly knee articulation, poor arm and head articulation, giant gun, no holster) and got even more accuracy out of the sculpt. Only real misstep: the crappy oversized shaggy vest.


There haven't been 3 Hammerheads in the modern line, and the update on that figure is one of accuracy in sculpt and deco and accessories.

And you stopped arguing about the overvisited prequel Jedi because you learned to control your spending to pick up only what you like? Why then are you arguing here, can't you control those impulses for other figures besides Jedi? Or are you just arguing for academic sake?



It's not exactly bitterness that makes me question the multiple Bossks. However, they were OT figures released during an emphasis on PT figures, meaning a more deserving (however you count that) classic figure could've been seen instead of three Bossks in a ten-year period. How many Mon Mothmas, Evazans, Crix Madines, (truly unique) Wickets did we see in that same period? How many ROTJ Jabba the Hutts? For that matter, how many Ewoks, period, did we see betwee 1997 and 2007? I'm not denying each subsequent Bossk has been an improvement over the previous one and I love the character, but, really, no matter how cool he looks, he doesn't really play an important role in the film.3 BOSSKS IN A 10 YEAR PERIOD? OMG!!1! ZOINKS AND JINKIES!!! Thanks for putting it that way, it really puts things in perspective. Don't mention the fact that we also got 3 IG-88s in that same time period though, or 50 billion different Ki-Adi-Mundis, or 2 mentally-challenged Snivvians or multiple Salacious Crumbs or Ewok Village Leias or the 3 sub-par Landos in that same time period or a gajillion orange rebel pilots including multiple Biggs and Wedge figures. Wicket? Crix Madine? Oh yeah, they're really as exciting and iconic figures as Bossk, right. Mon Mothmas, we saw 2, both pegwarmed hard. But damn, 3 Bossks over 10 years, each one an evolutionary step, how dare they? That's a whopping $1.70 a year you've had to spend replacing that original Bossk with its soft sculpt and mediocre articulation, that of course assuming someone held a gun to your head and forced you to buy either the 2nd or 3rd Bossk - which, might I add, were not exactly pegwarmers despite all the demonstrations and boycotts against Hasbro making a minor yet awesome alien bounty hunter into a wicked cool action figure again and again.

How much screen time exactly justifies a cool toy being made right in your book? Where's the line for keen action figures to be cast aside because they didn't get enough frames in the picture? Should we throw out our U-3PO and R3-A2 figs? How about MB-RA-7, the silver Death Star Droid? What about the Scanning Trooper? Surely we don't need 4 of that guy what with his 8 seconds of cellulose fame. And Dengar... man, that guy is barely visible in not 1 but 2 films, how dare they make ANY figure of him???



It's always good to have goals. I enjoy looking at the pictures other people have posted of their dioramas. I don't know if I could ever make anything like that, but I'll be happy just to have any sort of display that's a bit more organized than what I have now.Goals are fine, everybody should have goals for this hobby, but that shouldn't sacrifice the moment, the enjoyment of the hobby as it is now. Plans are fine and dandy, having one's imagination spurred is great, but to leave it on the back burner for so long seems like a huge waste and a big way to wither one's love for the hobby.



Okay, how about this perspective: why three Bossks, all of which are at least good, in the same span of time as one Ackbar, who was just okay? Everyone loves Ackbar, he's as cool an alien as Bossk, and he is far more important to the films and EU. So why one Ackbar who seems like a holdover "He-Man " 1995 figure?Again, this is not Sophie's Choice and we're not on the brand management team. If I could, I'd have every figure come with a free bar of gold. It's not up to me. Ackbar isn't as exciting an action figure as Bossk though, Bossk is an instant badass, Ackbar is a guy who flubs the attack on the Death Star 2 and has quivering mouth dealies. That isn't me saying he doesn't deserve to be updated, just that he's not exactly the most exciting action figure guy and I can see why the timing worked out for VTAC Bossk over Ackbar (VTAC being an all-ESB wave, I might add).


reptiles>squidOr you could just say that, yes. :D


However, Bossk is infinitely more important to the Star Wars saga than ol' lobster-chops. :p Bossk was the "Secret Star Wars Figure" you can't get more important than that. :DYeah buddy! Plus, only 1 of those guys was badass enough to stand on the bridge of the Empire's flagship totally barefoot and hiss at the jerks badmouthing his profession. Bossk is also the only bounty hunter smart enough to use a full-length strap attached to his weapon, oddly. Fett's rifle strap is only at the butt of the gun and not that useful.


But they needed Ackbar to know it was a trap.See my thread here for rebuttal: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=41716
(bottom line, Ackbar utterly sucked as a leader and needed Lando to make all the crucial decisions that led to victory, as each fleet decision Ackbar made in battle would have led to failure.)



Quick story when I was a kid: I received a mail away bossk and decided to give it as an xmas gift to my friend, who in turn, had the same idea. So he got my Bossk and I received his...!Truly, the gift of the Magi. :thumbsup:



YEAH!!! I totally OWNED this thread! Pay me my 10 internet dollas!

Tycho
12-11-2009, 07:56 AM
I am NOT a diorama builder. I think they are a waste of time and space. You spend all that money buying the figures and all that time setting them up to recreate the scene you want.... then what? You spend the rest of your life dusting the toys off once a week? Or standing the figures back up when they fall over?

I use enclosed display boxes, or industrial store fixture showcases, etc. and it says off the dioramas getting dusty.

I live in an earthquake prone state, but often I got very lucky. On Endor for example, I used 7 Stormtroopers, amongst Death Star Troopers, Officers, Bikerscouts, etc. After falling over several times, their feet eventually found good footing in the model railroad turf I used to recreate the forest floor and they remained standing - as did my snowtroopers in my Hoth display.

It was frustrating a little at first, but then resolved itself.


Plus, like JT said, most diorama-builders are not really diorama builders at all. They are diorama planners. Only buying toys to box up for that one day that they MIGHT have the time and space to set up their dream diorama.

When I was hospitalized after the brain aneurysm - which is nearly always fatal - my uncle paid to have everything packed up and shoved into storage. I might have been permanently disabled and never resumed the hobby at that point, as well. But that is the only reason the stuff is in storage now. I bring home a little bit and display it, then trade it for something else.

I've gotten through my health challenges and have 2 college degrees. The economy notwithstanding, I should be eventually able to land a job with 6 figures or close to it, and buy something like a 5 bedroom home to set up my collection in. Anything I do brings me closer to that as I know that by doing nothing, I'll have to remain in this apartment. I'd rather work towards my goal than set stuff up here, make it nice, and then have to rip it down to move again.


Some diorama builders claim that it's for their own enjoyment... really? Aside from the initial set up, what's fun about looking at but never touching your toy collection?

I enjoy the stuff once it's set up because I enjoy seeing my collection all layed out there. Yeah, if I can't touch my Jabba's Palace scene because it's behind glass - I actually don't have a problem with that. It doesn't get dusty. It stays set up. And I can recall how happy I am that I have Ephant Mon and Herme Odel in there now, whereas back in the day, Tessek and Ree-Yees were as wild as it got. Now we have Tanus Spijek and J'Quille, too. It will be fun for me to add Wooof and Fozzic, if they ever make him. Fozzic's never been done before. I already have a 1996 Luke Jedi for that scene and I like the pose I can achieve with him.


I guess you could bring visitors to your home to show off your diorama, but that will only impress them once... at most.

It will take me years to make all my dioramas. Thus I can have many years to entertain visitors who would enjoy Star Wars dioramas. There would always be something new to see.




Do people seriously think that the end result will ever live up to the years and years of planning and anticipation?

I hope so. I have reason to think so. I live a rich, full life with lots of things I do and enjoy, but this is one of them. My life's happiness will not depend on the results I get from diorama building, but it offers me:


something to do after dark in peace and quiet at home
something to do while I can think about other things - I might only have to stand stormtroopers for example, while I go over "he said / she said" in my mind one more time - or where I'm going to next take my story I'm writing. It's a great meditation - diorama building that is.
I am not a TV junkie. I prefer to think for myself all the time, proactively stimulating my own thoughts, versus reacting to what someone else is showing (and as for sports, I usually only watch baseball, and I go to the live home games anyway)
I am not a video game junkie for the same reason. I own The Force Unleashed and it is still sitting with my games in its original wrapper. I've never even OPENED the game, as I've prefered to do other things (and I'm addicted to playing baseball on the video game system anyway).
I exercise and play sports, and I'm going for professional work now that I'm getting back my health thanks to my kidney transplant - but most of the things I do are outside of my home. When you suddenly wake up at 3am, diorama building is an excellent way to appreciate this hobby and pass the time.



I do and don't have the skills to be good at diorama making.

My impatience is my worst enemy. I want to see what it will look like when it's all set up. [for those of you like me - trust me - HOTH is the easiest. Go for that first!!! - and Geonosis might also be pretty quick]

I hand-painted the original backgrounds for my Endor and Mos Eisley displays.
I did them quicker than I would have liked and was never entirely satisfied. It looked like primative art in a lot of ways. It was my intention, before I fell from that aneurysm, to go back and re-do the scenes. However, I still wanted to wait until I moved even back then.

The next and hopefully final time around, when I do get my house, I want to use the DVDs to screen-capture and print-up big backgrounds - of the Endor shield projector and landing platform, for instance. Some of my finer hand control seems to have been lost after the aneurysm, and I don't think I could paint or draw that well any more. I can still sculpt from foam and add gravel and foilage from model railroad supplies though.

In any event, it's a great creative project and a time-using hobby all on its own - with great appreciation for what I've already bought. And as I said before, it's a perfect meditation tool for me. I like it absolutely silent around here when I carefully set up a scene and try to make it so my figures won't fall over (clear stands are a big help, too! You can put your landscaping right over them so they'll never be seen!)

I don't know why diorama building is being knocked, but I sensed harshness turned against it. That provoked my own desire to post something harsh back:

I suspect diorama building is being knocked because


people don't have the room for dioramas
they let their spouses control them and thus aren't permitted to [put on your pants and act like MEN for crying out loud! Or don't get married. SHE is the one who's supposed to bend over!]
they have lost hope that they'll ever do something with their life to get the space to make the displays [hey I don't have the space right now either, but I have the hope, some balls, and some ambition]
they are embarassed about the juvenile nature of their hobby and don't want it on display [hey I can relate to this but I roll with it anyway. Women want to talk about Jesus, get drugs, and have someone pay their bills for them. Well if you're going to give them that, then one thing they need to bend over for is your darn toy collection. I said to put your pants back on!]
dust - spend some of that toy money on sealing cases or plexi-glass display cases that can even be made to wall-hang. Design something and have it built for you. My priciest wall-hangers were like $70. At least that's a custom wall-hanger and not Wal-Mart ripping you off for a Y-wing!]
So I'm not getting the part where you put stuff in storage except out of necessity like it has been forced upon me.
And just buying the next piece will not bring anyone happiness for long. Neither will making a diorama -but that takes longer and a more personal involvement and sense of achievement than just buying the stuff in the first place.

By the way, for those of you with works in "the official art thread" or whatever it's called: why do you bother creating something? Do you then throw it away? Why did you post it online to show? GET THIS AND UNDERSTAND THIS: making a diorama is another person's form of artisitic expression - just like your computer graphic design or latest painting. And while you might need the latest MSPaint or Photoshop software, we need Cliegg Lars and Jocasta Nu.

El Chuxter
12-11-2009, 09:04 AM
Seven years for an update isn't a problem. Three years for a second update is a bit annoying, given his screen time and the fact that he serves no role in the movie aside from window dressing. That's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it. :p Like I said, I actually like Bossk, and have no problems with the figures themselves.

There were updates to the WM version of Momaw Nadon. Not major ones, but enough to qualify him as unique in my opinion.

Devo
12-11-2009, 10:02 AM
Yellowing is fast becoming a problem in my collection as well. I've tossed out the farmboy Lukes, but there are Stormtroopers and Clones and Ep 2 Padmes that are yellowing on me, very frustrating.

And they aren't even yellowing in a uniform way. Limbs and heads go yellower than torsos and so on. Its bothersome indeed. And its not just white figures all the time either. I'm seeing it on others like Lando Bespin POTF2 and POTJ. Hes not going to go yellow but his arms are 'changing' while his torso is still blue.


I am NOT a diorama builder. I think they are a waste of time and space. You spend all that money buying the figures and all that time setting them up to recreate the scene you want.... then what? You spend the rest of your life dusting the toys off once a week? Or standing the figures back up when they fall over? I guess you could bring visitors to your home to show off your diorama, but that will only impress them once... at most. Some diorama builders claim that it's for their own enjoyment... really? Aside from the initial set up, what's fun about looking at but never touching your toy collection?

Do people seriously think that the end result will ever live up to the years and years of planning and anticipation?

..Yeah! I'm surprised to read that coming from a guy who wants all the skiff guards and is so specific about what skiff they were on, what they did etc :D Whats that if not wanting a diorama? What would you do with those figures if not set them up like in the film? Line them up on the shelf? Not saying theres anything wrong with that but why not display them in a movie-based action scene?

I rearrange my dioramas, I get great satisfaction in adding to them and improving them etc Hows that different? its not like we diorama builders never touch our figures again, its not like we don't ''play'' with them but its not like we can play with them 24/7 anyway. You guys can't play with your figures all the time either, the only difference is the default place for my figures if I'm not messing with them is in a collective scene of other figures rather than a pile or a lineup. Really whats the difference, whats to be frowned at either way?

bigbarada
12-11-2009, 10:28 AM
..Yeah! I'm surprised to read that coming from a guy who wants all the skiff guards and is so specific about what skiff they were on, what they did etc :D Whats that if not wanting a diorama? What would you do with those figures if not set them up like in the film? Line them up on the shelf? Not saying theres anything wrong with that but why not display them in a movie-based action scene?

I rearrange my dioramas, I get great satisfaction in adding to them and improving them etc Hows that different? its not like we diorama builders never touch our figures again, its not like we don't ''play'' with them but its not like we can play with them 24/7 anyway. You guys can't play with your figures all the time either, the only difference is the default place for my figures if I'm not messing with them is in a collective scene of other figures rather than a pile or a lineup. Really whats the difference, whats to be frowned at either way?

Well,..... 90% of that grew out of wanting an action figure of Kithaba and constantly getting frustrated that he was repeatedly being misidentified as Barada in official Star Wars sources. Then noticing that a majority of the Skiff Guards were either misnomered or just overlooked altogether. I simply saw a gaping hole in the (sometimes unnecessarily) thorough Star Wars EU and thought I could do my part to help fill that in a bit.

I guess it comes down to what you define as a diorama. To me, sticking a toy vehicle on a shelf and manning it with a few figures is not a diorama. But maybe it is to others.

However, I think you might have caught me in a bit of hypocrisy there. IF Hasbro ever got around to making all 13 Skiff Guards, decent versions of Luke and Han, and a larger Skiff toy, then I would probably draw up some plans to put them into a diorama. But it would involve a large sand base and a correctly-scaled Sarlacc that I created myself out of Super Sculpey.

I guess, if there was a significant amount of the diorama that you had constructed yourself, then I could see how there would be some real satisfaction and pride in the finished product. I used to build models as a kid, so I know this. I'd have to retract some of my previous statement in that case.

AmanaMatt
12-11-2009, 10:31 AM
But, then again, the third Greedo came far closer to the second than was the case with Bossk, and the third really wasn't a real improvement, just a sort of lateral movement with more joints.

Are you talking the vintage Greedo? . At the time, the hidden leg joints was pretty different and new, so I gotta say that, for the time, it was a definite jump in quality....I agree with JT, its a near perfect figure - I trimmed my vest, so its pretty close - I gotta say many people complained at the Vintage's lines price, but they gave us some great figs in that line. Wish it would come back in some form

Droid
12-11-2009, 12:26 PM
If that diorama is still set up this time next year, then let me know if you feel the same way.

I rotate them. Jabba's Palace was the last one.

Droid
12-11-2009, 12:35 PM
I liked the first POTF2 Greedo. It was SO MUCH better than the vintage figure.

That said I have been on board with every Greedo update. I think it is a question of how much you like a character or how much you hate a previous sculpt as to if you welcome the update or not.

I currently sue the VOTC Greedo with a plastic vest from a previous version in my diorama.

I was looking at the diorama this morning and to me Evazan is really the figure that most needs an update in that scene. I have always loathed both of the previous Evazan attempts.

The Wuhers have suffered too. The first one had a glass sculpted into his hand which was insane. The second one is so dirty. It looks like Wuher went swimming in garbage before he came to work that day.

Qui-Long Gone
12-11-2009, 12:52 PM
Just to chime in late on the discussion...I for one love background characters but only collect certain ones: Ewoks (I don't know why), PT troopers (scout, snow, sand, Death Star), Jabba thugs (I did get the Yarna on first release and was thrilled), and NT jedi (though not as much as I used to)....

I saw Willrow this morning and passed, and even if I wanted to geek out on ESB backgroundies...the Bespin figs have been dissapointing overall...


I was one (and still am) against Jocasta Nu--not because I don't like background characters--because in my humble opinion, good background characters help create a mis-en-scene for the SW universe....I thought Jocasta (and you can throw in a lot of NT scenes here) did nothing to propell the AOTC story (though slightly less so than Ani and Pad's love scene dialogue...yuck). I love most every background character on Tatooine because with such a sparse planet, the variety of aliens fits richly. The sheer number of troopers always warrents consideration...although you could argue that the storms are parts of one larger "main" character: i.e. the Empire's drones...

By the way--I love all Greedos only because he, hammerhead, and walrus man were some of my dearest childhood figures....

TheDarthVader
12-11-2009, 12:58 PM
Here are my favorite type of figures to collect in no particular order:

Jabba's Palace Denizens
Catina Bar Characters
Rebel Pilots
Droids (especially OT astromechs and some protocol droids)

So I am not hating on background characters. I wish that Hasbro would make more of them. We need more!! I want to see more Jabba and Cantina denizens in the future!!!!!

Qui-Long Gone
12-11-2009, 01:17 PM
We need more!! I want to see more Jabba and Cantina denizens in the future!!!!!

Amen


*Texas represent TDV! Ye-haw*

Tycho
12-11-2009, 03:08 PM
I saw Willrow this morning and passed, and even if I wanted to geek out on ESB backgroundies...the Bespin figs have been dissapointing overall...

Really? They could do so much better with mostly-non-movie-seen-but-filmed-and-cut characers from Bespin:

Treva Horme (alien, cut from ESB, but filmed, as seen in SW Encyclopedia)

Wiorkettle (a Snivvian like Zutton, ditto on the cutting room floor part)

Utriss M'Toc (we're actually finally getting as a variant on the new Black Bespin Guard)

They could still do other variants of Ugnaughts.

Other human Bespin Guards could be:

white or Asian with the Fu-Man-Chu mustache like vintage
Hispanic features Bespin Guard

Other humans could be:

several of the ladies seen briefly
another dude in green work coveralls, sort of like Wilrow Hood.

How could you pass on Wilrow Hood??? I want 7 more of this guy for diorama fillers for "civilized" locations like Coruscant (AOTC era, SOTE era), Nar Shaada
a refugee from the Yuuzhan Vong War (maybe the evacuation on Duros that Leia conducts?)

And other ethnicities could be represented by new Cloud Car pilots, too - like a black dude Cloud Car Pilot for example.


As to being actually able to PLAY with the figures? I can't do that any more myself, really - sadly - unfortunately.

As a kid I used to be able to act out my figures talking and make up stories with them - like how Boba Fett became this sherriff of this small town on some backwater planet and Han Solo wound up landing there (can you tell I love westerns?) But now diorama building IS how I play with them, I guess.

Also I like to set up figures like battle droids or troops and fire missiles (especially from AOTC Jango's Slave One) at the figures and knock them down.

I wished the AT-AT had more firepower (in the form of plastic missiles) for this. The Hailfire doesn't aim well. Slave-One is VERY accurate!

bigbarada
12-11-2009, 04:38 PM
I liked the first POTF2 Greedo. It was SO MUCH better than the vintage figure.

You're being sarcastic right?

Because you can't possibly believe that this:
http://www.rebelscum.com/POTF2greedo.asp

is superior to this:
http://www.rebelscum.com/TSC-Vgreedo.asp

Unless by "vintage" you are referring to this:
http://www.rebelscum.com/VINtGreedo.asp

I've found that if you take the dark orange vest from the 2004 OTC Greedo repaint and put it on the 2006 VTSC Greedo, then you end up with the perfect Greedo figure. I still can't figure out why that combination hasn't made its way into the Saga Legends line.

Droid
12-11-2009, 05:26 PM
You're being sarcastic right?

Because you can't possibly believe that this:
http://www.rebelscum.com/POTF2greedo.asp

is superior to this:
http://www.rebelscum.com/TSC-Vgreedo.asp

Unless by "vintage" you are referring to this:
http://www.rebelscum.com/VINtGreedo.asp

I've found that if you take the dark orange vest from the 2004 OTC Greedo repaint and put it on the 2006 VTSC Greedo, then you end up with the perfect Greedo figure. I still can't figure out why that combination hasn't made its way into the Saga Legends line.

I meant that the POTF2 Greedo was a lot better than the Kenner figure from the '70's!

bigbarada
12-11-2009, 06:15 PM
I meant that the POTF2 Greedo was a lot better than the Kenner figure from the '70's!

I wouldn't necessarily make that claim either. In some ways, the headsculpt on the 1978 figure was actually superior to the 1996 figure. The only real "improvement" was that Greedo finally came with an orange vest and the proper jumpsuit instead of a green version of Nabrun Lieds' outfit.

AmanaMatt
12-11-2009, 06:34 PM
hehe, I will at least say this for the POTF2 one: it had a much more accurate screen look, outfit wise. And it was cool how buff Hasbro made greedo...! (joking)

Devo
12-11-2009, 07:49 PM
I guess it comes down to what you define as a diorama. To me, sticking a toy vehicle on a shelf and manning it with a few figures is not a diorama. But maybe it is to others.

However, I think you might have caught me in a bit of hypocrisy there. IF Hasbro ever got around to making all 13 Skiff Guards, decent versions of Luke and Han, and a larger Skiff toy, then I would probably draw up some plans to put them into a diorama. But it would involve a large sand base and a correctly-scaled Sarlacc that I created myself out of Super Sculpey.

I guess, if there was a significant amount of the diorama that you had constructed yourself, then I could see how there would be some real satisfaction and pride in the finished product. I used to build models as a kid, so I know this. I'd have to retract some of my previous statement in that case.

OK well perhaps then I've been mistaken..about a great many..thinggss. Are there different ideas about what a diorama is or is there one set definition? For me, any collection of figures, vehicles, beasts etc grouped together - even just on a plain ol' shelf - the objective of which is to mimic actual film scenes...is a diorama...perhaps aided by playsets, cardboard backdrops provided by Hasbro, printed off backdrops or found objects that look star warsy. It doesn't need anything I've built myself although if I had the talent and know-how I would. It requires no more space than would be needed anyway to display the largest items - the vehicles.

My 'dioramas' consist mostly of nothing more than what Hasbro provides us on shelves no more or less than the depth of a wardrobe. In some cases they have to be retained to more of a lengthways axis than they ought to be - for example I can't distribute ships in a hangar bay exactly the way they were in the films because theres no getting a shelf that big. The film scenes I choose to recreate often depend on how 'busy' the scenes were and how much of the required characters etc we have in figure form. Echo Base is my personal favourite as we have all the vehicles minus the personnel carrier and the ice cutter. We have a huge variety of droids, a few commanding officers in the rebel ranks but not nearly enough grunts like Deck officers or Tauntaun Handlers..so far...we've got representations of all the core characters for the scenes if not yet definitive versions of hoth Leia and Han in Bespin fatigues. Hopefully we'll have more hangar technicians (I think they wore orange pilot-like suits with a hoth cap), control room techs (torynn farr), deck officers, snowspeeder pilots, tauntauns and pieces of set dressing such as vehicle re-energisers, ladders & gantries, computer consoles etc before the line ends. Even if you don't have the ability to make a realistic echo base environment to contain all these things the collection of toys in itself will be very impressive (to us at least). I dunno, I consider that a diorama. If I'm not picking up the figures and ships and messing about with them thats the default way I want to keep them.

RENDAR LIVES
12-12-2009, 06:37 PM
Who's "Faylatoni"? As in Dannl Faytonni, who was released six years ago? Or are you mixing him up with Jeremoch Colton?

That's what I said. :D J/K. I meant Colton.

RENDAR LIVES
12-12-2009, 06:45 PM
Well, an impulse buyer fits a few possible descriptions:

1) Someone who doesn't own ANY figures that decides they'll start picking them up - either as a serious collecting effort, or to get a few, or to make a specific scene: they have to have Han, Luke, Obi-Wan, Vader, Padme, etc. and they would not have them already. Then they could add Bail Organa or whomever afterward.

2) A troop builder is self-explanatory

3) A kid can recognize characters to various degrees. When I was little in the 80's, I very much wanted Admiral Piett and knew who he was. A kid new to the hobby surely knows Darth Vader or he wouldn't likely be interested. At the very least "this guy" is the person in black who commands all the cool troopers in white armor. Any kid age 4 or younger, couldn't have ANY figures until they were old enough, so for those who don't have stuff saved for them, having the main-stays available works - and it sells other figures. If you owned NOTHING, having a specialized Battle Droid might not be something you care about - but posing Obi-Wan in combat against it might have more appeal so both figures sell.

4) a parent, grandparent, girlfriend, friend, spouse - whomever buying a gift, would not decide to go to the store because the Star Wars fan they know and love would want a Hrchek Kal Fas. They'd think: I'll buy a SW character. Luke Skywalker is a SW character, right?

In 1996 the cool thing was to buy Greedo to fight Luke Skywalker (for kids' play). Today, to keep sales up for people who have Greedo (like you and me), the cool thing is to buy Hrchek Kal Fas to fight Luke Skywalker.

Anyway, these 4 figure sales described above, usually trigger multiple sales for Hasbro and its retail partner.

Meanwhile, I tolerate them because I want Nyrat Agira (she is a background girl wearing a thong in Club Outlander) and I want new cases to continue to ship so that one day Hasbro can place her in there.

Yeah, I won't buy Vader any more, but so? As long as he sells to someone, I may get Nyrat Agira.

I see what purpose releasing the core characters serves but new better versions are more desirable than the same old ones re-released. We used to get around 60 new figures a year. Then OTC collection seemed to trigger a lot of re-issues. Now we get about 60 figures in a year split up between CW and BAD and even then it's mostly repaints or retools. Yet prices are hiked. If it's about savings then why less for a higher price? That's a hefty profit Hasbro.

RENDAR LIVES
12-12-2009, 06:47 PM
I want to add that diorama builders are not "rare," as JediTricks posted.

It actually isn't proven to me either way whether we comprise a significant number of the purchasing fans of this line or not.

However, I don't want my angle on the hobby to paint me as being part of an insignificant group.

Those of you involved for other reasons can have me contributing to sales of this line that you hope to see continue for your own reasons, and appreciate me for my help too. Or you could label diorama builders as insignifcant, but try to imagine NOT having us to buy figures that will trigger case refreshments in your stores.

As far as Hrchek Kal Fas: I'm buying EIGHTEEN (18) of him to use in dioramas galaxy-wide.

Leesub? Well I think I could only justify getting 3 of her.

Why was she even made? They can't make the Tonnika Sisters.

Well said! You can pick up the slack from my selective tastes anytime. :D

bigbarada
12-12-2009, 06:56 PM
I see what purpose releasing the core characters serves but new better versions are more desirable than the same old ones re-released. We used to get around 60 new figures a year. Then OTC collection seemed to trigger a lot of re-issues. Now we get about 60 figures in a year split up between CW and BAD and even then it's mostly repaints or retools. Yet prices are hiked. If it's about savings then why less for a higher price? That's a hefty profit Hasbro.

Part of the price hike has to do with the price of plastic and materials. From what I understand, Hasbro must anticipate all of the materials that they are going to use for the next year and purchase everything in advance. Thus, if prices are high for them, then they must raise prices in the next year in order to continue to make a profit.

If the Star Wars line was the only toy line that saw a significant price hike in 2009, then your idea might hold some water, but EVERYTHING is expensive right now.

RENDAR LIVES
12-12-2009, 07:08 PM
And god likeness Leia figures:


POTF2 CTC "hood up" Leia
POTJ Bespin Escape Leia
POTJ Deluxe Slave Leia
OTC Bespin Gown Leia (paint is poor, but sculpt is excellent)
TSC Boushh Leia


You gotta admit when it comes to the core characters they just come up short 90% of the time. I'd think they'd be the best attempts at likeness but as I have said before, I think Hasbro spends less time on these so they can focus more on the characters that are less likely to be redone in the near future if ever.

I really looked forward to that Boushh Leia but when I stood her next to Artoo I was disgusted. The new Slave Leia is just as tall and compared to Luke and the others looks right for hieght. The ewoks seem small in comparison to Artoo. So I think I will blame Artoo for being out of scale.

RENDAR LIVES
12-12-2009, 07:46 PM
I'd rather have had the 1997 and 2007 Bossks without the 2004. I'm only using Bossk as an example; I don't see you arguing the merits of three Greedos or three Momaw Nadons. ;) I used to argue about the Jedi, but then I just stopped buying them.

It's not exactly bitterness that makes me question the multiple Bossks. However, they were OT figures released during an emphasis on PT figures, meaning a more deserving (however you count that) classic figure could've been seen instead of three Bossks in a ten-year period. How many Mon Mothmas, Evazans, Crix Madines, (truly unique) Wickets did we see in that same period? How many ROTJ Jabba the Hutts? For that matter, how many Ewoks, period, did we see betwee 1997 and 2007? I'm not denying each subsequent Bossk has been an improvement over the previous one and I love the character, but, really, no matter how cool he looks, he doesn't really play an important role in the film.

Sounds like you agree with JT about there needing balance. So what's the argument?

RENDAR LIVES
12-12-2009, 08:02 PM
Let's start at the top. Nobody forced you to buy '04 Bossk. How long would an acceptable wait be in your book for a figure like Bossk to finally cast off the shackles of his POTF2 weak sculpt torso and crummy Saga arm joints? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? What's the difference? You feel gypped that you got suckered into buying a figure three times? Tell me you don't own 3 of the same figure for no army building potential first, and then tell me how that $6 plus tax really broke the bank after 3 years. I know I've bought plenty of lameo figures just once that I regret a hell of a lot more than those 3 Bossks. When they pay me back for crap like POTJ preview Clone Trooper and Tarfful and 90% of the Han Solo figures they released and every Luke Jabba's Palace that I tried to turn into a competent Luke DS2, then I'll be more receptive to your line of thought.

I can argue the merits of 3 Greedos.


Greedo 1 - classic early POTF2 figure, play fast and loose with the facts, nobody cared at the time because they were just glad to have Greedo look like Greedo a little.
Greedo 2 - one of the better CTC figures, this one undid many of the original's mistakes (small head, inaccurate body, odd pose, poor articulation) and added the nifty "shot through the heart, and you're to blame" gimmick behind the vest.
Greedo 3 - updated the previous one's mistakes (weak deco, ugly knee articulation, poor arm and head articulation, giant gun, no holster) and got even more accuracy out of the sculpt. Only real misstep: the crappy oversized shaggy vest.

There haven't been 3 Hammerheads in the modern line, and the update on that figure is one of accuracy in sculpt and deco and accessories.

And you stopped arguing about the overvisited prequel Jedi because you learned to control your spending to pick up only what you like? Why then are you arguing here, can't you control those impulses for other figures besides Jedi? Or are you just arguing for academic sake?


3 BOSSKS IN A 10 YEAR PERIOD? OMG!!1! ZOINKS AND JINKIES!!! Thanks for putting it that way, it really puts things in perspective. Don't mention the fact that we also got 3 IG-88s in that same time period though, or 50 billion different Ki-Adi-Mundis, or 2 mentally-challenged Snivvians or multiple Salacious Crumbs or Ewok Village Leias or the 3 sub-par Landos in that same time period or a gajillion orange rebel pilots including multiple Biggs and Wedge figures. Wicket? Crix Madine? Oh yeah, they're really as exciting and iconic figures as Bossk, right. Mon Mothmas, we saw 2, both pegwarmed hard. But damn, 3 Bossks over 10 years, each one an evolutionary step, how dare they? That's a whopping $1.70 a year you've had to spend replacing that original Bossk with its soft sculpt and mediocre articulation, that of course assuming someone held a gun to your head and forced you to buy either the 2nd or 3rd Bossk - which, might I add, were not exactly pegwarmers despite all the demonstrations and boycotts against Hasbro making a minor yet awesome alien bounty hunter into a wicked cool action figure again and again.

How much screen time exactly justifies a cool toy being made right in your book? Where's the line for keen action figures to be cast aside because they didn't get enough frames in the picture? Should we throw out our U-3PO and R3-A2 figs? How about MB-RA-7, the silver Death Star Droid? What about the Scanning Trooper? Surely we don't need 4 of that guy what with his 8 seconds of cellulose fame. And Dengar... man, that guy is barely visible in not 1 but 2 films, how dare they make ANY figure of him???


Goals are fine, everybody should have goals for this hobby, but that shouldn't sacrifice the moment, the enjoyment of the hobby as it is now. Plans are fine and dandy, having one's imagination spurred is great, but to leave it on the back burner for so long seems like a huge waste and a big way to wither one's love for the hobby.


Again, this is not Sophie's Choice and we're not on the brand management team. If I could, I'd have every figure come with a free bar of gold. It's not up to me. Ackbar isn't as exciting an action figure as Bossk though, Bossk is an instant badass, Ackbar is a guy who flubs the attack on the Death Star 2 and has quivering mouth dealies. That isn't me saying he doesn't deserve to be updated, just that he's not exactly the most exciting action figure guy and I can see why the timing worked out for VTAC Bossk over Ackbar (VTAC being an all-ESB wave, I might add).

Or you could just say that, yes. :D

Yeah buddy! Plus, only 1 of those guys was badass enough to stand on the bridge of the Empire's flagship totally barefoot and hiss at the jerks badmouthing his profession. Bossk is also the only bounty hunter smart enough to use a full-length strap attached to his weapon, oddly. Fett's rifle strap is only at the butt of the gun and not that useful.

See my thread here for rebuttal: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=41716
(bottom line, Ackbar utterly sucked as a leader and needed Lando to make all the crucial decisions that led to victory, as each fleet decision Ackbar made in battle would have led to failure.)


Truly, the gift of the Magi. :thumbsup:



YEAH!!! I totally OWNED this thread! Pay me my 10 internet dollas!

That was awsome! Nice rant! Glad to see some passion out of you. I dissagree with the Wicket comment though. I love that little bastard and desperately need a newer version. I never was able to get a OTC version and don't even know how different it is compared to the POTF2 version. I also wouldn't mind a new Ackbar but he isn't high on the list.

RENDAR LIVES
12-12-2009, 08:27 PM
Part of the price hike has to do with the price of plastic and materials. From what I understand, Hasbro must anticipate all of the materials that they are going to use for the next year and purchase everything in advance. Thus, if prices are high for them, then they must raise prices in the next year in order to continue to make a profit.

If the Star Wars line was the only toy line that saw a significant price hike in 2009, then your idea might hold some water, but EVERYTHING is expensive right now.

Yes, yes. And they also have far more movable parts. They have been gradually bumping up the price since ROTS Preview wave. Other lines like Transformers have only recently bumped their $9.99 to $12.99. It blew my mind the other day when I was at a store and saw the comic packs hiked up to $14.99! They are cancelling them and hiking the price?

While the articulation and cost explaines the prices it doesn't justify giving us rettols and repaints over and over. Not redone characters but just re-used sculpts. They wonder why sales are slipping? Well I'd say because there isn't much TRULY NEW product to be purchased for starters. It's like half the amount of new figures we used to see and that's only half of half for those of us with little to no interest in the CW line.

AmanaMatt
12-12-2009, 08:40 PM
Speaking of Leia, the only decent ANH one is the sculpted one with hood up....was that the Early Bird Walmart special...anyways, it had limited articulation, but really decent sculpt...one of the few leias I have in the display area

morpheus282
12-12-2009, 09:03 PM
As far as Hrchek Kal Fas: I'm buying EIGHTEEN (18) of him to use in dioramas galaxy-wide.

No wonder I had problems finding him, Tycho bought them all!

Tycho
12-12-2009, 10:21 PM
Morpheus, I think I'll have 2 extra Hrcheks when all is said and done. It appears I'm ending up with 20 of him. If so, I'll be letting two go, or trading them.

I really need 7 more ICMGs (Willrow Hoods) and 1 more Bespin Guard.

Amanamatt, we disagree on Leia. I like the 1998 Leia Collection one. I just could use more articulation on that figure and I've never held the VOTC one from ANH for comparison, but I think she was sculpted only above the waist, and I like a full dress like the PLC one.

morpheus282
12-12-2009, 10:54 PM
Morpheus, I think I'll have 2 extra Hrcheks when all is said and done. It appears I'm ending up with 20 of him. If so, I'll be letting two go, or trading them.

I really need 7 more ICMGs (Willrow Hoods) and 1 more Bespin Guard.

Amanamatt, we disagree on Leia. I like the 1998 Leia Collection one. I just could use more articulation on that figure and I've never held the VOTC one from ANH for comparison, but I think she was sculpted only above the waist, and I like a full dress like the PLC one.

That's a lot of lizards! I've only seen two in the wild and I snagged one. I don't think the other lasted very long.

What in the wild world of sports are you going to do with that many ICMGs? Did the Empire have a Ben & Jerry's on the Death Star?

AmanaMatt
12-13-2009, 12:41 AM
Amanamatt, we disagree on Leia. I like the 1998 Leia Collection one. I just could use more articulation on that figure and I've never held the VOTC one from ANH for comparison, but I think she was sculpted only above the waist, and I like a full dress like the PLC one.

Was that the one that came with the kick butt blaster? If so, she was quite good - for the time, IMO. She is probably out of scale now, but that was the first Leia that had me pumped.

Personally, I hate the VOTC one, and the newest redo of that is a little better, but not much.

And yeah, all the leia talk is totally subjective. I am still waiting for the 'definitive' version from ANH......or Luke for that matter. Or Threepio....ok, Im off topic ARGH!!!

Tycho
12-13-2009, 09:44 AM
What in the wild world of sports are you going to do with that many ICMGs? Did the Empire have a Ben & Jerry's on the Death Star?

1) Bespin / Cloud City
2) Coruscant random on streets during AOTC speeder chase
3) random dude on the freighter during AOTC
4) random dude on the streets of Coruscant during SOTE
5) random dude amongst refugees on Duro during NJO evacuation
6) ?
7) ?
8) ?

It's always nice to have extra figures, especially official Star Wars ones, that can be put into dioramas that require "populations" for the protagonist characters to move through.

An appearance in Dexter's Diner is another possibility.
The bar on Gall that Boba Fett confronts the other bounty hunters in, too?
A diorama of OT-era Nar Shaada would also work well, when a human is needed.
Or maybe Wilrow was watching the Pod Race - only he's not THAT old. If the stand-in is actually "in character," then AOTC should probably be his first appearance, pretending he's about 10 years older than Han.

morpheus282
12-13-2009, 10:16 AM
You know, when it comes to Willrow I can't help but wonder one thing. When they were setting up extras to film the escape from Cloud City, did they just happen to look over and see the guy with the beer gut and say "...and you get to carry the ice cream maker."? Seems like typecasting to me.

Tycho
12-13-2009, 10:29 AM
I thought he was played by either Ben or Jerry :D

Qui-Long Gone
12-14-2009, 03:09 PM
1)
An appearance in Dexter's Diner is another possibility.
The bar on Gall that Boba Fett confronts the other bounty hunters in, too?
A diorama of OT-era Nar Shaada would also work well, when a human is needed.
Or maybe Wilrow was watching the Pod Race - only he's not THAT old. If the stand-in is actually "in character," then AOTC should probably be his first appearance, pretending he's about 10 years older than Han.

He's certainly big enough to double as the dragonsnake that swallowed R2...
He's probably in Jabba's palace too, or in the cantina wainting for the "Sisters" to bring back drinks...
Tycho, I do believe he was hiding on Tattoine with Vos under Qui-Gon's nose...

dindae
12-17-2009, 02:18 AM
That said I have been on board with every Greedo update. I think it is a question of how much you like a character or how much you hate a previous sculpt as to if you welcome the update or not.

This pretty much nails it for me. I have several figures that are in the "good enough" category. Ackbar is one of those. Can he be better? Yes. But I don't see him as a figure with obvious flaws. That being said if at Toy Fair they show an awesome new Ackbar I would likely buy it. Now when I was looking at the new figures at Comic-Con we had a few upgrades.

Luke Snowspeeder - Awesome upgrade with great likeness and new accessories. The vintage redo one was "good enough" but this one was great.

Han Stormtrooper belt - This one I mainly bought for the droid part. The previous was fair. I don't think the likeness is much better on this figure than the previous one although I must confess I haven't really compared them. But I do remember the previous one having a lurch to him.

Imperial Scanning Trooper - the first figure was garbage. This figure was much better in every way, but it wasn't a figure I was clamoring for since I really didn't see much more than a gray jumpsuit.

Malakli - Better but the droid part was definately a driving factor. Definately a figure I thought was "good enough".

Slave Leia - I definately think the first figure was great however the swapable legs made this figure a must have.

Jedi Luke - closer. I like the head sculpt but definately could be better. So like most of us I will what for the perfect sculpt.

Zuckuss - definate improvement. One I was glad to see. I had issues with the old sculpt.

I could go on but the point being that none of these figures were on my radar before they were announce but some of them were great upgrades but others were just "meh" and bought mainly due to the BAD. And even though Lak Sivak has much more need for a upgrade I would be much more excited to see a new Gamorrean Guard because I like it better.

Devo
12-17-2009, 03:00 AM
This pretty much nails it for me. I have several figures that are in the "good enough" category. Ackbar is one of those. Can he be better? Yes. But I don't see him as a figure with obvious flaws.

Really? Look at the awful way his legs are attached with those gaps in the inner thighs. And the dated way that the skirt part of his tunic is sculpted onto his legs. I think an update of that guy will have you wondering how you ever thought the POTF2 was acceptable.

bigbarada
12-17-2009, 03:43 AM
I remember thinking that the 1997 Ackbar was one of the best figures ever; but I used to think the same about the 1997 Bossk and the 2007 VTAC Bossk proved just how wrong I was. Hopefully we'll get a new Ackbar that similary puts the POTF2 figure to shame.

dindae
12-17-2009, 09:48 AM
Really? Look at the awful way his legs are attached with those gaps in the inner thighs. And the dated way that the skirt part of his tunic is sculpted onto his legs. I think an update of that guy will have you wondering how you ever thought the POTF2 was acceptable.

See this one of those flaws that was just one of those things that was standard on figures so it didn't really bother me. Like 5 points of articualation. It was the standard so it didn't bother me. But yes I'm sure I could be pleased with a resculpt, but it just isn't a figure that sticks out for me unlike Lak Sivrak, Nein Numb, or Zam Wessell.

Devo
12-17-2009, 11:07 AM
The headsculpt is still pretty cool on the POTF2 Ackbar but those legs and that waist have to go.

I agree about articulation though. I don't believe in updating a great sculpt just to add more joints unless its a main character.

Tycho
12-17-2009, 02:06 PM
I'm not interested in paying out another $8 so my figure can have a skirt.

I want a figure of a character never made for the line before, like Cliegg Lars.

That's not to say they shouldn't do Ackbar. I won't be buying him, but I don't think he's been offered since 1997 if I'm right.