View Full Version : What To You Are The Main Differences Between Old Republic Jedi and the New Jedi Order

12-15-2009, 05:26 PM
I was considering whether folks regard the Jedi Luke Skywalker trains to be "real" Jedi, or must they have a temple on Coruscant and go through a structured program supervised by a High Council to be "real" Jedi.

How do you regard Kyle Katarn - who's largely self-taught? What about those from unorthodox backgrounds such as Mara Jade (Skywalker)?

Do they have the moral authority or authenticity of say SaeSee Tiin or Kit Fisto?

What about EU Jedi from older eras like Ulic Qel Droma, pre-Sith War, or Odan-Urr?

Speaking of the older eras, how about the Sith?

1) There was space travel and intergalactic colonization, wars, and finally centralized government forming.

2) There were Force users, sort of like how the X-men evolved from mutants with abilities.

3) They were persecuted and hunted, and some organized a brotherhood, a fraternity, for training, and acceptable public service - the Jedi

4) Some Force-users rejected that and believed might-made-right. They fought in the original Schism.

5) The Dark Side users lost to the Jedi Order and were exiled since prisons couldn't hold them.

6) They went out into the Rim Worlds and conquered the Sith aliens. The Sith ruled by their strongest, and the Dark Siders quickly became their Lords, hence Dark Lords of the Sith.

7) They returned to the galaxy to conquer the Republic but destroyed themselves and the Sith civilization in the process. The Sith species became extinct from the wars.

8) Dark Siders that try to increase their personal power organized around the traditions and religion of the Sith. I think the original "new Sith" use the Sith culture as an excuse, but it's undeniably a good teaching tool. These were Dark Siders like Exar Kun.

9) The "new" Dark Lords of the Sith started repeated traditions of using battle droids and Mandalorians to conquer the Republic. Eventually, those who would call themselves Sith went into hiding and The Rule of Two was imposed (but not strictly followed) by Darth Bane and those who followed in his footsteps.

10) In Bane's tradition, 1000 years later, Darth Sidious achieved galactic conquest during the era that the 6 movies we have take place in.

11) There may have been no living successor to Darth Vader, the last Sith Lord to die in that era, but we know that at least 48 years after Vader's death, his own grandson Jacen Solo became Darth Caedus, and Darth Kraayt was out there somewhere, too - perhaps carrying on the tradition on his own, too.

12) The "newest Sith" were organized into a brotherhood of multiple Sith Lords once again, by Darth Kraayt - who presumed dead - has been replaced by Darth Wrylock.

The Jedi engage the Sith in fights to the death. I suppose the Jedi have determined them irredeemable, as Master Mace Windu wanted to forgoe Darth Sidious' trial and execute him on the spot in ROTS.

So how legit are the Jedi of different eras and how legit are the Sith?

El Chuxter
12-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Everything is legit up to point #10. #'s 11-12 are bad fan-fiction (though, admittedly, with good artwork on the comics side of things).

Lord Malakite
12-15-2009, 05:45 PM
It be kind of like asking how legit the US government was in the 18th century after winning their independence from Britain or how legit the Confederate government was after they left the Union before/during the US Civil War. They all had to begin somewhere, even the Old Republic/Jedi Order. Questioning whether the New Republic/Jedi Order is legit because it isn't identical to one that came before it is moot. What is considered "real" just comes down to a majority acceptance of those who want set up said government/institution (at the time of creation) and the passage of time (to establish itself in the public mind, as a whole/not just the group setting it up, as being the acceptable norm/legit).

Darth Jax
12-15-2009, 07:20 PM
don't forget that there was another sect of "jedi" around at the time of the purge (from which the awfulness of callista sprang). they referred to themselves as jedi, but weren't necessarily all temple graduates. they didn't hold themselves to all the rules of the temple.

there have been other jedi training programs beyond the temple, as indicated by EU sources (the crashed jedi academy ship in courtship of leia comes to mind).

what do you consider the emperor's hands or ventriss? they aren't true Sith since Tyranus and Sidious are the master/apprentice allowed by the only 2 rule. what about a jedi master that was cloned, but due to the fact he is insane, doesn't adhere to the jedi code?

what about untrained force users? the inhabitants of mace's homeworld are all born with force abilities.

El Chuxter
12-15-2009, 10:19 PM
There's also the differences regarding Corellian Jedi, who went through the Temple training and were members of the Order proper, but obviously had some ties to their homeworld, since there was the whole "JedCred" bit... unless that was totally retconned out of existence.

12-17-2009, 02:37 AM
I'm not sure how I'd answer Chux's question but I'll think on it.

what do you consider the emperor's hands or ventriss? they aren't true Sith since Tyranus and Sidious are the master/apprentice allowed by the only 2 rule.

The Emperor's Hands just had Force sensitivity and were trained as much as they needed to be to carry out their assignments. I suppose if one could have slain Vader, or Vader was otherwise killed, the Emperor could start training one of his Hands as his apprentice. They were either unknown or distrusted by Vader though. As in The Force Unleashed, he found his own disciple(s) to help him should he usurp the Emperor.

what about untrained force users? the inhabitants of mace's homeworld are all born with force abilities.

I don't know if they all were Force-users, or they just could sense Force-bonds to their Nek Battle Dogs. They weren't Jedi though. And neither were those members of that pacifist Force-weilder society that Luke discovered while researching his mother's legacy.

El Chuxter
12-17-2009, 07:55 AM
Has there been any EU where, following the deaths of the Jedi, a bunch of washouts (like Agri-Corps guys) band together?

12-17-2009, 12:54 PM
Has there been any EU where, following the deaths of the Jedi, a bunch of washouts (like Agri-Corps guys) band together?

I don't think so, but that's a good idea. However, Ferus Olin was (in his own way) a Jedi washout. The Emperor didn't try to destroy them, but rather used them, as he used Ferus (as Hands maybe or maybe just to irritate Vader and stoke the fires of his hate).

12-17-2009, 01:07 PM
Has there been any EU where, following the deaths of the Jedi, a bunch of washouts (like Agri-Corps guys) band together?

Funny you should ask...

In the new Karen Traviss novel "501st: An Imperial Commando Novel", there is a group of Jedi (I think they were Agri Corps folk) that have banded together after Order 66. Kal Skirata and a couple of his "sons" (clones adopted by Kal by way of Mando tradition) dump off a few surviving Jedi.

12-17-2009, 01:10 PM
dump off as in drop off? Or bump-off as in kill (and a typo)?

12-17-2009, 01:19 PM
dump off as in drop off? Or bump-off as in kill (and a typo)?

Dumps off as in he doesn't want 'em around his secret compound on Mandalore but doesn't yet want to take their lives.

In the Republic/Imperial Commando books, Kal Skirata, a Mandolorian training instructor on Kamino, has a distrust of the Jedi in general, and after Order 66 goes down, he hates them even more.

I won't put any spoilers here, but if anyone wants more detail, IM me or check out Wookiepedia.

Darth Jax
12-17-2009, 07:06 PM
that group of jedi are the same group of jedi mentioned above that don't follow the temple rules. it's callista's group.

haven't seen any EU source where a once-promising jedi that's been demoted to the agri-corps has returned brandishing any force powers; but now that you've mentioned it, it's probably only a matter of time before it happens. maybe they could incorporate the cruisemissile trooper into the story too

12-17-2009, 07:57 PM
The Jedi Temple / Academy operations for youngsters, educates them like college and a trade school.

It's not just agricorps (to feed the galaxy's hungry) but it's diplomatic corps as well (to be negotiators), as well as research institutions, etc. There's a lot of other jobs. I guess in the EU Obi-Wan feared the agricorps because he deemed it to be the worst possible fate.

I bet some Jedi wash-outs became Senate Guards or Republic Military Officers - they might have even wound up serving the Empire.

If they weren't Jedi, they might not care.

Palpatine didn't care about eliminating every Temple-trained Force-user (the kids yes, because they'd be homeless trouble-causers if the Temple operation ceased and they were trained to resist the Sith. Not to mention, too many little just-turned-Sithlets would be too hard to handle and a real problem for the Rule of Two.

However, those Force-users, including Jedi like Dass Jennir (EU) that weren't resisting the Empire (at any given time) were ignored. Darth Vader was obsessed with destroying them because he began to hate the concept of the Jedi which he blamed for the galaxy's status quo in addition to the loss of his mother, wife, and child (that he knew of). Of course he couldn't blame himself. It's always Obi-Wan's fault anyway.

12-17-2009, 09:14 PM
I think the notion of a Jedi 'washout' and the AgriCorps needs to be re-examined. It was fine enough before the prequel trilogy,

If a child is taken from its parents because of a base level or higher midichlorian count, then I don't understand how someone could wash out. Washing out seems to imply that skills aren't adequately developed ( like if someone wanted to join the Marines or Spec Forces, but couldn't get past training. That sounds like a wash out), but It seems that someone can take the 'trials' whenever they're ready. I can understand that maybe one of the Jedi recruits might decide that they don't want to be a Jedi, but that still isn't washing out.


12-17-2009, 09:36 PM
Jedi are supposed to be emotionless and act without passion or prejudice.

If a child can't - and some species aren't prone to being as good at it as others (a Gamorrean Jedi anyone? - and this is supposedly why Lucas didn't want there to be more Wookiee Jedi beyond Plo Koon's old master and Lowbacca) - then they may wash out.

The Jedi don't want those who cannot control themselves to be as well-trained as those entrusted to enforce order in the Republic.

Also, a Jedi still might have a high midichlorian count but suck at accessing it- thus being weak in the Force.

The Sith don't have this problem. There are no wash-outs, just practice targets. :D