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View Full Version : Dooky Was Palpatine's Apprentice Before TPM, Even Before Darth Maul; Rule of 2 - NOT!



Tycho
11-18-2010, 09:59 PM
Darth Plagueis was a Muun who trained Palpatine.

Darth Plagueis was also a Sith alchemist (unorthodox scientist) and he experimented on Shmi - perhaps without her knowledge somehow - and genetically engineered Anakin to be the perfect Sith - high midichlorian count and a trustworthy face with which he could be a popular ruler.

In some manner, things were manipulated so that Shmi and Anakin would be hidden away as slaves on a backward world in the Outer Rim.

Plageuis' intent might have been for Anakin to grow up and kill Palpatine, when Palpatine was of no further use to Plagueis.

Palpatine might have known about Anakin and caused him to be "lost."

Palpatine personally killed Plageuis in his sleep (maybe - or he had some assassin (Darth Maul?) do it for him.\

Sith Lords are supposed to be exceptionally hard on their apprentices and make them hate them to fuel their Dark Side. Eventually, the Apprentice becomes the Master by killing the latter.

Palpatine might have hated aliens because Plageuis was an alien (a Muun like San Hill of the Banking Clan).

However, Palpatine USED aliens - like Darth Maul - when it suited him, so Maul was a tattooed freak the public would fear and never submit to, ensuring that Maul could never rule the galaxy. On the contrary, Palpatine engineered his being ELECTED Emperor :thumbsup: He was popular and well-liked when he took full control of the Empire.

He likely wanted an Apprentice that could do the same. I'm sure he knew Dooku as a Jedi. He also knew that Dooky was heir to a fortune from his homeworld of Null. Dooku could raise the funds to finance the Separatist Movement and get it going - like paying for battle droids as well as the Clone Army's beginning (Lama Su and Jango Fett's fees).

Dooky likely killed Syfo Dias to cover up the authorization of the Clone Army. Remember, it was begun being engineered when the events of TPM were going on at the same time!

Darth Maul was just a tool, like Dooku was using Asajj Ventress.

Dooku was also very popular - with the Separatists - and he could also lead the galaxy if Palpatine failed. Ventress could not, just as Maul could not.

No - there were not armies of Sith as had been tried and failed before. But Dark Siders were persuaded to join all along, with the promise of becoming the Sith Lord.

These Dark Siders were impressionable YOUNG Force Users, like Maul or Ventress.

I don't think Darth Maul was the real Sith Apprentice.

The Jedi Order was misled to believe so.

Thus when Dooku was revealed to be a known Sith Lord, he was thought to be the Master - perhaps Maul's master - while Palpatine was never suspected.

Anakin's loyalty to Palpatine became useful when Palpatine needed to get rid of Dooku - and had Anakin not undergone such physical tragedy (on Mustafar) - he would have been the perfect Sith Lord to reign as the 2nd Sith Emperor (and retain his popularity as a war hero, too).

However, the expanded universe also has Palpatine messing around with Sith Alchemy trying to "cheat death," by use of his own clones (Dark Empire comics). It's debatable whether or not that actually worked (transferring Palpatine's spiritual Force into the clone), but Joruus C'Boath from HTTE was a clone of Jorus C'Boath - though not the exact same person.

Had Anakin survived and stayed allied to the Sith, there might have been a power struggle between him (Darth Vader) and Palpatine's new clone.

However, the whole plan revolved around Palpatine ruling in absolute, unchallenged power, and perhaps cheating death to continue to do so.

JimJamBonds
11-19-2010, 05:15 PM
Palpers tricked the Trade Federation into blockading Naboo, no funds needed.

Tycho
11-19-2010, 10:47 PM
Palpers tricked the Trade Federation into blockading Naboo, no funds needed.

The Trade Federation was being attacked by pirates, hitting their cargo ships.

That's why the Droid Control Ships were described as converted huge bulk freighters.

The Trade Federation raised funds by public stock offerings. I bet that Dooku (maybe through dummy corporation names) was a principal stock-holder.

Attacked, the Federation wanted the Republic to do something about it.

The Republic wanted to raise taxes "to outlying star systems" who needed goods shipped, in order to outfit a space navy to patrol the hyperspace lanes.

"The taxation of trade to outlying star systems is in dispute."

Meanwhile, the share-holders demanded that the Trade Federation purchase more security - the Battle Droids and Vulture fighters.

At the same time, Darth Sidious contacted the Federation (he was secretly sponsoring the pirates anyway) and told them the Sith could help them out in exchange for favors. Darth Maul was sent to eliminate some of the pirates - afterall, Palpatine knew exactly where the pirates would be since he was hiring them.

Then Darth Sidious promised Nute Gunray more power by eliminating the other elected stock-holder Board of Directors. Through battle droid malfunctions, and likely pirates and Darth Maul, too - this was accomplished and Nute Gunray - though he benefitted, was likely terrified that if he didn't follow Sidious' instructions, he'd be "done away with," too.

Yeah - a lot is in "Cloak of Deception," but I'm logically reasoning out the situation I came up with that describes the role of Darth Maul.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-20-2010, 11:03 AM
Um, was there a question or topic here? :rolleyes:

Palpatine is the perfect way for Lucas to use his paintbrush on the films; he can say it was all a convoluted plot within a plot if there's a question about how/why something changes. What a sneaky guy... Palpy, I mean. :p

tagmac
11-21-2010, 03:05 PM
Of course, if Yoda and Palps hadn't ended up in the Senate Chamber, and the fight had remained in his office, Palpatine would NOT have survived!

Case in point, Mace Windu kicked his tail in, and would have finished him had Anakin not arrived, giving Palpatine the opening he needed. Yoda, being even more powerful than Mace, only lost the fight because his lightsaber, and then he himself, were sent flying hundreds of feet to the Senate Chamber floor, preventing him from mounting a final offense.

Remember, when Yoda turns back the Sith lighteing, Palpatine clearly screams in pain, and looks terrified. Had the ensuing explosion of Force energy merely knocked Yoda to the office wall, he'd have snatched up his saber and ended it quickly. Anakin would have died on Mustafar with no one to save him, and then the Original Trilogy would have mysteriously disappeared, "erased......from existence, Marty!" ;):thumbsup:

Tycho
11-21-2010, 05:30 PM
I think the Sith engineer their "moments."

Darth Maul deliberately separated Qui-Gon from Obi-Wan with the energy barriers in the Naboo energy plant facility.

Darth Sidious takes the first leap onto the Chancellor's dias and Yoda follows him there.

I don't think Yoda had a choice but to press Palpatine.

If Yoda didn't continue to engage him, as Emperor, Palpatine could have used the controls to call for the clones' help. Yoda would have then at least had to escape (as he was forced to anyway).

Qui-Long Gone
11-24-2010, 02:56 PM
I think the Sith engineer their "moments."


I agree the Sith take their destiny into their own hands, but sometimes it doesn't quite work out, especially when the Skywalker kid chucks his saber and says "You failed...."

In general, I think the Sith are much smarter and wiser than the Jedi, but their pride always nails them.

Tycho
11-24-2010, 03:07 PM
Oh, it's a age-old struggle that applies to us in our universe, as much as the Sith in theirs.

Those with ability and ambition strive to dominate and make things the best they can for themselves.

Whoever's not in power, wants to wreck it for them.

This leaves a question about the Jedi. Would they just disband or take orders in a Sith Empire? Palpatine didn't take any chances, hence Order 66 - plus there's enough history there to make the Jedi and Sith each others' mortal enemies.

Additionally, the dedicated Jedi - almost all of them (especially those heavily invested in the Clone Wars) - took their sworn oath to the Republic very seriously.

Note - and this is realistic: After Order 66, Palpatine didn't really care about Force-sensitives (or ex-Jedi) around the galaxy unless they were a threat to his rule. Vader (because of his socioapthies) wanted to hunt every Jedi down and punish them - in a really psychotic case of displaced anger.

Qui-Long Gone
11-25-2010, 08:26 AM
Note - and this is realistic: After Order 66, Palpatine didn't really care about Force-sensitives (or ex-Jedi) around the galaxy unless they were a threat to his rule. Vader (because of his socioapthies) wanted to hunt every Jedi down and punish them - in a really psychotic case of displaced anger.

That is exactly what I wish ROTS would have taken more time to explore. Your observation insists that Vadar turned himself into a cold-blooded death-machine which is precisely what Obi Wan lamented to Luke with his "twisted and evil" comments. In ROTS, Lucas suggested that Anakin sort of stumbled into the Vadar persona through bad timing and happenstance (Oops, sorry my lightsaber tripped into your hand Mr. Windu). I also had in mind from Obi Wan's comments that Vadar played a more critical role in hunting down the Jedi vs the Emperor's Order 66 which seemed to wipe them all out except for Obi and Yoders.

Of course, the one thing that never made sense to me (from a narrative perspective) was that despite all his evil deeds, just because he saved Luke, Anakin achieved Jedi ghost redemption at the end of ROTJ. I understand why Lucas included that transformation in the film, but it was inconsistent within the SW story....

JimJamBonds
11-25-2010, 08:45 AM
I think the Sith engineer their "moments."

Darth Maul deliberately separated Qui-Gon from Obi-Wan with the energy barriers in the Naboo energy plant facility.Ehh I think that is pushing it, what is your evidence? If Maul separated them on purpose then why did he separate himself from Qui-Gon?


Darth Sidious takes the first leap onto the Chancellor's dias and Yoda follows him there.

I don't think Yoda had a choice but to press Palpatine.

If Yoda didn't continue to engage him, as Emperor, Palpatine could have used the controls to call for the clones' help. Yoda would have then at least had to escape (as he was forced to anyway).
You think some clones would be a problem for Yoda? Yes, Yoda had to press the attack since Charlotte was running away from him, it was fightin' time plain and simple.

Tycho
11-25-2010, 09:44 AM
Ehh I think that is pushing it, what is your evidence? If Maul separated them on purpose then why did he separate himself from Qui-Gon?


Probably for a rest, so Maul could build up his anger and hate to a crescendo that fuels his Dark Side.

They also might have not been able to make it through all the energy barriers fast enough while fighting at the same time.

rickantel
12-07-2010, 02:48 AM
Of course, if Yoda and Palps hadn't ended up in the Senate Chamber, and the fight had remained in his office, Palpatine would NOT have survived!

Case in point, Mace Windu kicked his tail in, and would have finished him had Anakin not arrived, giving Palpatine the opening he needed. Yoda, being even more powerful than Mace, only lost the fight because his lightsaber, and then he himself, were sent flying hundreds of feet to the Senate Chamber floor, preventing him from mounting a final offense.

Remember, when Yoda turns back the Sith lighteing, Palpatine clearly screams in pain, and looks terrified. Had the ensuing explosion of Force energy merely knocked Yoda to the office wall, he'd have snatched up his saber and ended it quickly. Anakin would have died on Mustafar with no one to save him, and then the Original Trilogy would have mysteriously disappeared, "erased......from existence, Marty!" ;):thumbsup:
whatever you do dont be seen or talk to anyone lol shakes head KIDS NEVER LISTEN DO THEY

JimJamBonds
12-08-2010, 09:22 AM
Probably for a rest, so Maul could build up his anger and hate to a crescendo that fuels his Dark Side.Maul was younger and was 'winning' the fight, taking a break did nothing but give Quigers a chance to rest and focus on the task at hand.
They also might have not been able to make it through all the energy barriers fast enough while fighting at the same time. The Jedi can run super fast and I'd presume the Sith can as well, if you want to get there then sprint.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-14-2010, 06:55 PM
Of course, the one thing that never made sense to me (from a narrative perspective) was that despite all his evil deeds, just because he saved Luke, Anakin achieved Jedi ghost redemption at the end of ROTJ. I understand why Lucas included that transformation in the film, but it was inconsistent within the SW story....
It's not just about saving Luke. Reawakened by his love for his son, and determined not to repeat the same mistakes that lost him his wife and friends, Anakin re-emerges to kill Darth Vader (figuratively) and Darth Sidious (literally), thus finally destroying the Sith and fulfilling the prophecy of the Chosen One, bringing balance to the Force. Does this completely forgive the horrible things he's done over the last 22 years? No. But it does prevent anything else from happening, and by saving Luke he allows the light side to flourish once again. It can even be argued (as Yoda and Obi-Wan feel) that Darth Vader is a completely separate entity from Anakin Skywalker. Whether or not that's enough to justify his redemption is subjective.

Qui-Long Gone
12-14-2010, 08:42 PM
It can even be argued (as Yoda and Obi-Wan feel) that Darth Vader is a completely separate entity from Anakin Skywalker. Whether or not that's enough to justify his redemption is subjective.

I can live with that explanaition. I do still have one problem, however, Anakin helps kill Mace Windu before he is christened as Vader...but I buy into Yoda and Obi-Wan holding Vader culpable for murdering Anakin. In that sense, it actually makes more sense to have a younger Anakin appear to Luke in ghost form.

Tycho
12-20-2010, 02:06 AM
This is practicing bad symmantics.

Simply put, Vader, in trying to repair himself, studies everything there is to know about living immortaly - and even transferring himself out of his damaged body.

Of course he'd learn what Qui-Gon learned, and taught to Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Maybe he found other Force-users (non-Jedi) and studied with them, or more likely, tortured it out of them, pursuing this with or without Palpatine's blessing.

It was their original bargain, however.

So Vader / Anakin doesn't appear at the end of ROTJ with Obi-Wan and Yoda's blessing - but they respect Luke's desire to know he saved his father.

Anakin is not "redeemed" to everyone else (Leia never accepts that in the EU anyway), but in the end, he does the right thing - and it fulfills the Jedi prophesy.

Obi-Wan and Yoda cannot argue that he did indeed accomplish that.

Luke forgives his father. But that is all the love that Anakin will get.

Qui-Long Gone
12-20-2010, 02:41 PM
Luke forgives his father. But that is all the love that Anakin will get.

And frankly, that's all the love he needed.