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View Full Version : Why can't Episode III end like this?



Toad
03-04-2002, 12:23 PM
I imagine something totally different -- or rather, hope for something totally different -- than has been discussed on this board.

Why can't Obi-Wan and Anakin get into their fight towards the end of the movie...

Then, we don't see Anakin don the new armor until the very end .. and we don't even see him put it on really ---- we just see it. He then goes by Darth Vader AFTER Episode III.

This would make the appearance of Vader in the ANH even more compelling, and would make the story much better in the sense that Vader is still a mystery...

I don't know, maybe it doesn't really work that well -- I just thought it was a much cooler idea. The first time we see him Darth Vader, we have no idea who he is -- could be just some guy. This makes the revelation of him being Anakin MUCH MORE IMPORTANT for first-time viewers.

What do you think?

Rollo Tomassi
03-04-2002, 01:13 PM
That's a distinct possibility. Padme and the bun(s) in the oven could escape, pusued by Anakin. Obi Wan confronts him, they fight, Anakin "dies" and the last scene of the film is Palpatine and his new apprentice, Vader looking out at the galaxy they now control. Of course, you'd have to be pretty dense not to figure out Anakin isn't Vader. You follow a character through two and a half movies, he dies, and some bumpkin in black armor shows up out of the blue? Hmmmmmmmm....

The only reason I think there is a confrontation between Vader and Obi Wan AFTER their initial Anakin-into-Vader battle is because that seems like extremely POWERFUL storytelling. Obi Wan confronted with his failure and what it means for the entire galaxy for the next 20 years. And showing baby Luke in the final scene gives the audience a "glimmer of hope..."

But keeping Vader's true identity a secret might be what George has in mind.

evenflow
03-04-2002, 01:37 PM
Still, no one said it cant be like that.

JEDIpartner
03-04-2002, 02:13 PM
I think they would show a little more of what happened to Anakin only to generate a little more sympathy from the audience. I think that, for dramatic effect, the aforementioned situations would be awesome, but I see this as a mass market film... and that generally doesn't satisfy.

Toad
03-04-2002, 02:32 PM
I don't know, I'm still holding out hope.

Think about how powerful it would be if they fight at the end, and the most emotional lightsaber battle ensues. They fight, and Obi-Wan unwillingly knocks Anakin into the lava pit -- maybe even trying to save him -- but alas, Anakin's grip slips, and he falls away. Perhaps another of Obi-Wan's "No!"'s follows, like when he lost his master Qui-Gonn.

Obi-Wan returns to Yoda, etc. feeling defeated. They then part ways again, this time Obi-Wan has Luke in his arms.

The scene shifts to the emporer, and he's doing something -- you know he's up to something at any rate. Perhaps we just see him standing over the pit where Ani ---- his pupil ---- fell.

Cut again to Obi-Wan handing the baby Luke over to Owen and Beru. I agree that something powerful is said here, but I think "this boy is our last hope" is a little dumb -- after all, GL has really only repeated one saying in all of SW lore ("bad feeling about this"). AND -- no one wants Luke to be the last hope. They want to save him. Perhaps something will, instead, be said about his father to Uncle Owen ... then fade to black.

JEDIpartner
03-04-2002, 02:40 PM
Actually anything... but Anakin laying in a medical centre and Jane Seymour coming into the hallway from the his room, going up to Palpatine and saying, "He's sleeping now." And then walking away. Wow... why do I have the feeling I've seen this before? :rolleyes:

Toad
03-04-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
Actually anything...

What?? Anything what?

And what's with the Jane Seymour reference? I don't think Anakin will be on any medical table at all. I instead think the last we will see of Anakin Skywalker in the flesh is when he falls into the pit.

I just think it makes Episodes IV-VI more interesting. Of course we all know what's up, because we've seen it, lived it, dreamed it, performed it for decades.

But we have to think of the people who will see I-VI without seeing IV first. If they already know who Darth Vader is -- then ESB loses it's surprise ending ... and if Leia is born with Luke, then ROTJ loses it's big surprise as well.

...just some things to think about.

Darth Ovori
03-04-2002, 04:23 PM
No, I want to see Darth Vader destroy the Jedi's one by one... I've waited a long time for that and I don't need to see a quick shut off ending like that...

odb
03-04-2002, 04:33 PM
I'm with Toad on this one.

The battle between Anakin and Obi Wan should occur towards the end of the film, with Anakin being shown falling into the pit. This prevents Vader being shown in EPIII, saving his full appearance for ANH.

There should be a link between the two films to make sure that everyone gets the connection, something like EPIII closing with Vader's breathing, a shot on the faceplate of his helmet in a medical facility or even a shot from behind of Vader with his cloak and Helmet.

Rollo Tomassi
03-04-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Toad
I don't know, I'm still holding out hope.

Think about how powerful it would be if they fight at the end, and the most emotional lightsaber battle ensues. They fight, and Obi-Wan unwillingly knocks Anakin into the lava pit -- maybe even trying to save him -- but alas, Anakin's grip slips, and he falls away. Perhaps another of Obi-Wan's "No!"'s follows, like when he lost his master Qui-Gonn.


I'm sticking to my theory on this one that Anakin allows himself to fall. He makes the willing decision to let go, paralleling Luke's decision to let go in ESB. Luke refuses temptation; Anakin refuses redemption. Otherwise it's sort of a "Anakin! Don't trip on that...D'OH!" kind of thing.


by Ovori, dark lord of the Sith
No, I want to see Darth Vader destroy the Jedi's one by one... I've waited a long time for that and I don't need to see a quick shut off ending like that...

That you won't see. There is about 10,000 Jedi and Vader wallowing through all of them for two hours would get very old, very fast. Show Vader dropping a few of the big names(Mace, Plo Koon, Ki Adi Mundi, etc) and imply that the rest are doomed.

Jedi Clint
03-04-2002, 05:04 PM
I don't think Obi Wan saying something like, "Take care of him Owen.....he is our only hope." would be "a little dumb"!!

Rollo Tomassi
03-04-2002, 05:06 PM
It boils down to how contrived you want to make Vader's appearance. When he shows up at the end of TNO, the first thing that goes through the audiences mind is "Who is THAT guy?" Imagine it's not Anakin. Introduce a brand new character at the end of a trilogy without any explanation or anything for the guy to do except stand around. That is pathetic storytelling. Then you have to go out of your way to persuade people that it isn't Anakin, in order for the "I am your Father" scene to work. And that's not even counting the other inconsistencies you would stumble across before you got to ESB (see below)

You guys keep mentioning his revelation in ESB. That is of little consequence, because the audience will already know something is up when Ben tells Luke that Vader killed his father in ANH, when we saw Obi Wan do whatever to Anakin in TNO. So in order to perpetuate THAT little lie, you'll have to show VADER killing Anakin.

That won't happen, for obvious reasons.

You also have to think about the previous movies. Anakin, Anakin, Anakin, Anakin dies, Five minutes later Vader shows....That is so obvious, that if you decide to try to explain it away somehow (and I have no clue how you would, suggestions?) you would have to subjugate the entire movie, and perhaps the entire trilogy to that explanation.
Again. That is truly horrific storytelling. the movie is no longer about Anakins descent to the dark side, it becomes about how we can keep the Anakin/Vader secret from the audience, so another film works better for first time viewers.

In conclusion, I don't see anyway you cannot show Anakin emerging as Vader. The ESB scene still works. I've known Vader is Luke's dad in every subsequent viewing and I STILL think that's one of the most powerful scenes in motion picture history. Luke has no clue every time I watch it. It's powerful storytelling. And that what's the choice boils down to, would showing Anakin as Vader be powerful onscreen imagery? Would Obi Wan confronting his former Padawan be powerful? I say it would be infinitely more powerful and interesting than trying to keep it a secret for the academic sake of a later film.

Jedi Clint
03-04-2002, 05:11 PM
You're right Rollo, but Lucas doesn't have to make it completely obvious that they are the same person in E3......I say leave the "confirmation" of his true identity in ROTJ where it belongs.

Darth Ovori
03-04-2002, 06:57 PM
I just wonna see Vader kick some Jedi butt... Dammit besides Obi-self sacrifies in ANH, Vader really did'nt show his true dark potentail...

Make him destroy Plo Koon and Ki Adi!!! Oh and the rest running away for thier lives would be cool... :crazed:

bigbarada
03-05-2002, 03:43 PM
I think Ep3 will basically have the audience believing that Anakin is dead by the end of the film (when the films are watched in order), this way just the fact that Anakin is alive will still be a shock in ESB.

As for the audience putting two and two together, how many hints were given about Padme/Queen Amidala and Sidious/Palpatine in Ep1? I knew many people who watched those films and never made the connections.

Toad
03-05-2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
I don't think Obi Wan saying something like, "Take care of him Owen.....he is our only hope." would be "a little dumb"!!

You don't have to -- that's just my opinion.
After reading all of the posts here, it seems like post people think there will be all these "catch phrases" that link things up. I think that's downright dumb - again, it's my opinion.

If we have learned anything from Lucas, it's that he will simply lat it out. If Ben says "He's our last hope," and then the next episode is called "A New Hope", we have to be dumb not to be able to figure that out. For films that by their very essence are shrouded in mystery, I just don't think it fits.

Jedi Clint
03-05-2002, 04:51 PM
The point was, we do not call the ideas of others "dumb", or "stupid", or any other degrading adjective....period.

Toad
03-05-2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
It boils down to how contrived you want to make Vader's appearance. When he shows up at the end of TNO, the first thing that goes through the audiences mind is "Who is THAT guy?" Imagine it's not Anakin. Introduce a brand new character at the end of a trilogy without any explanation or anything for the guy to do except stand around. That is pathetic storytelling. Then you have to go out of your way to persuade people that it isn't Anakin, in order for the "I am your Father" scene to work. And that's not even counting the other inconsistencies you would stumble across before you got to ESB (see below)

You guys keep mentioning his revelation in ESB. That is of little consequence, because the audience will already know something is up when Ben tells Luke that Vader killed his father in ANH, when we saw Obi Wan do whatever to Anakin in TNO. So in order to perpetuate THAT little lie, you'll have to show VADER killing Anakin.

That won't happen, for obvious reasons.

You also have to think about the previous movies. Anakin, Anakin, Anakin, Anakin dies, Five minutes later Vader shows....That is so obvious, that if you decide to try to explain it away somehow (and I have no clue how you would, suggestions?) you would have to subjugate the entire movie, and perhaps the entire trilogy to that explanation.
Again. That is truly horrific storytelling. the movie is no longer about Anakins descent to the dark side, it becomes about how we can keep the Anakin/Vader secret from the audience, so another film works better for first time viewers.

In conclusion, I don't see anyway you cannot show Anakin emerging as Vader. The ESB scene still works. I've known Vader is Luke's dad in every subsequent viewing and I STILL think that's one of the most powerful scenes in motion picture history. Luke has no clue every time I watch it. It's powerful storytelling. And that what's the choice boils down to, would showing Anakin as Vader be powerful onscreen imagery? Would Obi Wan confronting his former Padawan be powerful? I say it would be infinitely more powerful and interesting than trying to keep it a secret for the academic sake of a later film.

Okay, okay, thanks for the whole "pathetic" storytelling thing. It was just an idea (need I remind you that your's are simply 'ideas' as well?).

a) what is "TNO" ?
b) you've told me what's wrong with my "pathetic" idea and why it won't work -- but you haven't offered why yours will.
c) if we see Darth Vader and know he is really Anakin Skywalker, how is their any suspense in the next movies? Just because Luke gets to find it out, and we're the audience with the dramatic foreshadowing to our advantage?

I'm sure that my idea isn't how it will play out. I'm not writing the script, and I'm not lobbying on behalf of anyone, so those of you who are becoming angry should really settle down. ;) I'm just a hobbyist who had my own idea of how I'd like to see it happen. Nothing more, nothing less.

One thing remains -- it will all be exciting, no matter which 'version' is chosen.

Toad
03-05-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
The point was, we do not call the ideas of others "dumb", or "stupid", or any other degrading adjective....period.

I wasn't calling anyone in particular dumb, nor anyone's individual ideas. I thought about, I thought it was dumb, it's as simple as that.

Jedi Clint
03-05-2002, 05:06 PM
That's fine. You can think whatever you want about someone's ideas. In order to keep our discussions civil, you can also keep those opinions to yourself.

Toad
03-05-2002, 06:00 PM
My apologies -- I didn't intend to come off as rude or that I was insulting other peoples' opinions. It's hard to imply a sense of humor in a post! ;)

I appreciate the heads-up, Jedi Clint.

Rollo Tomassi
03-06-2002, 12:33 AM
Dude, I don't think your idea of ending the movie with Obi Wan and Anakin's fight is pathetic. I think introducing a brand new character at the end of the trilogy, with no explanation as to who he is or why he is there is pathetic. And you can't explain who he is or why he is there without implicitly leading back to Anakin. Or flat out lying. So if you avoid the Anakin part, Vader's reason for being there is pathetic ( in a storytelling sense) ergo, you must let the audience know Vader is Anakin.

And keeping it a secret is academic. Everybody knows Anakin is Vader. I know. You know. That guy knows. So why sacrifice a powerful storyline for the sake of an academic plot point in another film that still works even if you know the truth in advance? Someone keeps referring to the concept of "Dramatic Irony" We know Vader is Luke's father, but Luke doesn't know. Happens all the time in literature and film.

It's all about sacrificing the story of III in order to make ESB work (despite the potential conflict of Ben lying to Luke in ANH anyway). I don't think the story should have to be reworked to keep the Vader/Anakin thing a secret. This trilogy is about Anakins fall to the dark side, which means showing him as Vader. Vader is the end result of his fall and therefore the conclusion of the trilogy's story arc. Not thinking he's dead and then wondering who this new bloke in the black armor is showing up for the last five minutes of the film.

TNO is "The New Order" which is my pet name for Episode III which takes too long to write out all the time. (gaah! You've made me do it again!:eek: );)

Jedi Clint
03-06-2002, 01:24 AM
Thanks Toad.

We appreciate everyone's cooperation. Respecting the opinion of others is paramount here at SSG. http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/announcement.php?s=&forumid=13

Rollo,

I wouldn't call that way of telling the story "pathetic".

I see your point about dropping him onto the screen with little or no explanation. As I said before, I think you can allude to his identity without confirming it. Leave them guessing. The character's true identity lies behind a mask. The dialogue alone would be responsible for exposing that secret to any degree, unless we actually see him fitted with the bionic body parts. I don't see that happening, but that doesn't mean it won't.

It could be blatant:

Vader, "I was once Anakin Skywalker. Now I am Darth Vader."

It could be elusive:

Kenobi to Vader, "Anakin?!?"
Vader in repsonse, "Anakin Skywalker died at YOUR hands!"

We can hear about "Vader"/Palpatine's young apprentice after Dooku's demise and before we actually see bionic-Vader, but never directly connect Anakin to the man behind the mask.

It is late, and I am not feeling very eloquent. Forgive me.

By the way.......I thought "TNO" meant "the next one" :)

It could go either way. Let's just keep our comments to one another civil.

Toad
03-06-2002, 08:25 AM
I like it!!!

I like that Vader is alluded to, that we hear rumblings of "a new Sith Lord", but aren't supposed to be able to piece it together. (Like Rollo said, WE will be able to, but others after us shouldn't have it fed to them on a platter!)

I also like something happening to Obi-Wan that makes him ashamed. That's why he's living alone, yada yoda yoda.

I just keep thinking that if we know with 100% certainty that Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader in Ep. III (or, TNO ;)), as I've stated before, the next Eps. lose some power. I don't know why ... I can't really explain it very well.