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Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-04-2012, 03:56 PM
StarWars.com posted a Season Five teaser trailer (http://starwars.com/watch/tcw_season5_teaser_trailer.html). It's very short and doesn't show much of anything, but it does have Maul, Savage, and (separately) Pre Vizsla on the move. It reminds me a bit of those tone poem commercials they did for TPM back in 1999 ("Fear is my ally," "Don't look back," etc.). Not the greatest trailer ever, but hopefully these characters will all get their due next season.

JediTricks
05-04-2012, 04:26 PM
Shouldn't that be a new thread for Season 5?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-04-2012, 11:34 PM
Aye, it should be. I guess I had just gotten so used to the overall "First look at the Clone Wars 'toon" thread that I'd completely forgotten that nobody's used that one in months. :p

Battle Droid
06-11-2012, 06:08 PM
High Quality Season 5 Trailer.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/06/11/star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-5-trailer-darth-maul-death-watch-battle-over-the-galaxy-exclusive/

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-11-2012, 07:54 PM
JT, perhaps we could split this off into a new thread, even though it's not exactly been hopping in the last month?

Anyway, I had seen a crappy phone recording of the trailer from SW Weekends, but it's great to see it in HD. I'm looking forward to them hopefully using a lot of their characters more than they did this past season - Pre Vizsla, Lux Bonteri, Embo (who looks to be fighting Savage Opress as well as Anakin/Padmé/Rush Clovis at separate times), Rush Clovis, Hondo Ohnaka, Sugi, and Dengar, to name a few. It looks like Vizsla was speaking on Mandalore proper - I wonder if he will kill Satine and take over the planet?

Darth Metalmute
06-11-2012, 09:20 PM
Trailer looks amazing. Finally get to see Alderaan. Can't wait.

Battle Droid
06-11-2012, 10:27 PM
Onderon actually.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-12-2012, 12:18 AM
Besides, we already saw Alderaan in Season Three's "Assassin." Onderon is from the Tales of the Jedi series.

EDIT: I had said Fate of the Jedi, but Tycho is correct. Return, Power, Fate, Tales; there are a whole lot of "of the Jedi" stories. :p

Tycho
06-12-2012, 05:03 AM
Onderron was established in the Tales of the Jedi comic series, starring Ulic Qel Droma.

Old Sith history:

After brother - sister hyperspace explorers Gav and Jori Darragon charted a route into unknown space, Dark Lord Ludo Kresh, followed Jori back when she was allowed to escape the Sith Empire and return to the Republic. Then the Sith attacked.

Ludo Kresh had many Jedi turn to the Dark Side and follow him - he was half-human and very charismatic. One such Dark Jedi was Naga Sadow who used genetic experimenting on the Sith Massassi Warriors to try and breed super-soldiers. He built the pyramids on Yavin IV to channel the Dark Side. When he died, he was interred on Onderron's wild Dxxun moon where Mandalorians trained for their rite of passage missions to become true warriors.

On Onderron, another King, Omin, was born Force-sensitive and explored the Dark Side because when his people gained space flight, they visited Dxxun and became obsessed with Naga Sadow's legacy.

A new Sith legacy was being built on Onderron under King and Queen, but the Jedi Council dispatched Master Arca Jeth there with his 3 padawans - human brothers Ulic and Cay Qel Droma, and the Twilek Jedi and their best friend Tott Doneeta.

Arca was killed and Ulic sought revenge. He took it out on the Mandalorians and because he defeated Mandalore and would not kill him, Mandalore became his slave and all Mandalorians were to follow the leadership of Ulic Qel Droma.

Meanwhile, fallen Jedi Exar Kun, even more powerful, crosses Qel Droma's path and together they forge the beginnings of a new Sith Empire with the Mandalorians as wel as an army of war droids at their service, igniting the Sith War.

This is hundreds of years before KOTOR and Republic video games and comics take place. Exar was the first Sith to use a double-bladed lightsaber.

The Jedi under Nomi Sunrider, a rising knight and Ulic's former lover, led the Knights and the Republic against the Sith when the Jedi Council was slain. Besides Yavin IV, Empress Teta's Koros Major, and Coruscant herself, Onderron was the site of a major battle.

Ulic killed his own brother Cay Qel Droma on Onderron.

ALDERAAN where Princess Leia was raised, is an entirely different planet. The Ograna's home planet lies in the Core. Onderron is a Mid-Rim world.

Darth Metalmute
06-12-2012, 08:22 PM
My sound must be bad. I watched it twice to make sure. I guess I heard what I wanted to...:sentimental:

Tycho
06-13-2012, 05:59 AM
I made a mistake. Naga sadow defeated ludo kresh. Freedon nad was sadows pupil buried on dxxun

JediTricks
06-13-2012, 06:05 PM
JT, perhaps we could split this off into a new thread, even though it's not exactly been hopping in the last month?Done.

I've decided to wait on the trailer until I see it at comic-con since it's only a month away.

preacher
06-14-2012, 01:27 AM
It looks like Black Sun crime organization gets attacked by Maul toward the end of the trailer. If I'm not mistaken those were Falleen gathered at the table. Could Xizor be making an appearance? That would be extremely unexpected to have ties to Shadows of the Empire.

Tycho
06-14-2012, 01:36 AM
Xizor had a problem with Darth Vader for killing his people. Maybe Maul did it, and Xizor blames all Sith.**

He did not know Vader was Anakin Skywalker, IIRC - just that Vader's mission was to bring Luke Skywalker alive to the Emperor.

Xizor set out to kill Luke Skywalker so that Vader would fail and the Emperor would eliminate him and Xizor would rise to power in the Empire.

**Xizor probably did not know that Emperor Palpatine was also Darth Sidious, and that the Empire's control was in the hands of the Sith.

IIRC, Xizor did not know that Luke Skywalker was Darth Vader's son, so his mission to possibly force Vader to kill Luke was also doomed to failure.

Vader would never kill Luke Skywalker (probably - it sure seemed like that was so in ESB and ROTJ. Vader wasn't "trying." That was his son!)

The lightsaber fights in the PT were mostly more flashy than in the OT because in the PT they really were trying to kill each other.

ANH could have been spiced up a bit if the saber fight were made today. Obi-Wan (Alec Guiness) was supposed to be about Qui-Gon's age in TPM when he fought Vader in ANH. Liam Neeson had better moves than Alec Guiness. Of course Vader was a robot by ANH (since just after ROTS) so Alec Guinees might have needed better moves if he were fighting a non-handicapped opponent.

preacher
06-15-2012, 01:00 AM
Xizor had a problem with Darth Vader for killing his people. Maybe Maul did it, and Xizor blames all Sith.**

He did not know Vader was Anakin Skywalker, IIRC - just that Vader's mission was to bring Luke Skywalker alive to the Emperor.

Xizor set out to kill Luke Skywalker so that Vader would fail and the Emperor would eliminate him and Xizor would rise to power in the Empire.

**Xizor probably did not know that Emperor Palpatine was also Darth Sidious, and that the Empire's control was in the hands of the Sith.

IIRC, Xizor did not know that Luke Skywalker was Darth Vader's son, so his mission to possibly force Vader to kill Luke was also doomed to failure.

Vader would never kill Luke Skywalker (probably - it sure seemed like that was so in ESB and ROTJ. Vader wasn't "trying." That was his son!)

The lightsaber fights in the PT were mostly more flashy than in the OT because in the PT they really were trying to kill each other.

ANH could have been spiced up a bit if the saber fight were made today. Obi-Wan (Alec Guiness) was supposed to be about Qui-Gon's age in TPM when he fought Vader in ANH. Liam Neeson had better moves than Alec Guiness. Of course Vader was a robot by ANH (since just after ROTS) so Alec Guinees might have needed better moves if he were fighting a non-handicapped opponent.

That w is my theory as well. Or maybe Xizor does know that Anakin is Vader, but he blames Vader because when he till was Anakin he failed to stop Maul from killing his people.

I also really like the contempt that Maul has toward Dooku. "Sith pretender"

Tycho
06-15-2012, 01:53 AM
Funny thing is, Darth Maul is the Sith pretender.

1) He could never go about in PUBLIC with Sith tattoos like Palpatine let him do himself up in. Or were they "witch tattoos?" Or did the witches wear Sith tattoos - probably the latter. To show their allegiance to the Dark Side.

a) some of the public liked Palpatine as the great, kind, nice guy, preserver of the Republic he pretended to be while putting his clone troopers everywhere for "defense" - and then occupation.

b) some of the public liked Count Dooku - the Separatist hero and leader in their fight for free trade and independence of a stagnant and corrupt Senate.

c) No one knew these two more powerful figures were Sith Lords with lightning and all these powers.

d) Maul was just an assassin with martial arts skills and rudimentary Force attacks, just like Ventress, and just like Savage Opress was supposed to be, save for that Ventress used him like a tool to strike at Dooku.

(e) the other baddies were hired hands (loyalists or mercenaries or profiteers) - Grievous, Durge, Zam, Aurra, Bane, most of the Separatists, Xizor, Jabba the Hutt, etc.)

Sidious just let Maul call himself a Darth even while he figured he might convert Dooku, and then later, Anakin.

Dooku (Darth Tyranus) was the most dangerous of them all.

Personally, I think Maul will have his but handed to him if he goes after Dooku for all of the above. Maul just looks more frightening. Dooku proved himself against Savage Opress for one - though Maul will have a better chance than his brother.

I don't know when Vader messed things up with Xizor. I always had the impression it was after he wore the armor, and Xizor did not know Vader was once Anakin Skywalker.

Xizor knew Vader was a Sith Lord though. That's why he wanted the Emperor to destroy Vader. However, I'm not sure if Xizor knew the Emperor Palpatine was also Darth Sidiuos- the Sith Master?

Darth Metalmute
06-15-2012, 07:13 PM
Xizor knew Vader was Anakin. It's in the prologue of SOTE. When he knew is up in the air though.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-15-2012, 08:14 PM
Funny thing is, Darth Maul is the Sith pretender.

1) He could never go about in PUBLIC with Sith tattoos like Palpatine let him do himself up in. Or were they "witch tattoos?" Or did the witches wear Sith tattoos - probably the latter. To show their allegiance to the Dark Side.
They're not Sith tattoos in the canon anymore after what was shown in The Clone Wars. They're Nightbrother tattoos. The Nightsisters use magicks, but it's not necessarily a light side/dark side thing, or even related to the Force, and the Nightbrothers aren't showing using any similar powers (though Savage and Maul are gifted in the Force, seemingly more than the others). In Darth Plagueis, when Palpatine takes custody of Maul, Maul already has the tattoos and he's only an infant.

In the continuity of the films/series, it seems that Maul really was a Sith apprentice. He wasn't as powerful as Sidious, and Sidious only used him as a tool. Darth Plagueis complicates it by saying that Maul was never truly a Sith at all, with Plagueis being the master and Sidious the apprentice. But I doubt that they'll bring that up in the show. They say they'll show more sides of his character, like his cunning and his intelligence, which I think will do the character good.

El Chuxter
06-16-2012, 12:23 PM
So if they're no longer Sith tattoos, why do the future Sith in Legacy all have them?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-16-2012, 02:36 PM
So if they're no longer Sith tattoos, why do the future Sith in Legacy all have them?
The Legacy comics and those Sith started appearing in 2006. The Clone Wars Nightsister arc premiered in January 2011, which is where the tattooed Nightbrothers were introduced. That's why it's a "no longer" situation. And, of course, I take The Clone Wars as higher canon due to Lucas' involvement (and I just really dislike Legacy anyway :p ).

El Chuxter
06-16-2012, 11:44 PM
Yeah, I dislike Legacy too (actually, "dislike" is way too mild a word), but it just seems odd to me how they set up "canon," then run all over it. Many times, in fact, with this cartoon.

Tycho
06-17-2012, 06:12 AM
Thank you JabbaJohnL.

I rather like Legacy, but there needs to be more than Legacy War to wrap up that series.

John and Jan need to kill a lot of the rest of those characters and resolve it.

They've move back in time to Dawn of the Jedi, so I think they could go back and do another mini-series where they lay waste to Cade Skywalker's world.

Perhaps it coincides with Hasbro plans to do more Legacy figures?

Rebelscum has it confirmed that a Vintage Style carded Cade Skywalker is coming out. Great for carded collectors.

As a fan and diorama builder, from Legacy, I want:

Emperor Roan Fel

Princess Marisiah Fel

Darth Wrylock

Morrigan Corrde / Nina Calixte (Cade's double-agent Mom)

The female Imperial pilot (Cade's half-sister)

A Yuuzhan Vong shaper from that era

Jeremiah Synn (Cade's best friend)

Cade's Twi'lek and Zabrack Jedi friends (one was his former master)

Admiral Stassi (Duro or Niemoidian)

Imperial Moff that's the highest baddie and liason to Darth Krayyt.

The smuggler that Cade worked for (the guy was the same species as Kit Fisto)

So they could go into another sequel after Legacy War and finish the story while Hasbro markets these figures. Yeah, carded Cade, Darth Krayyt, maybe Antarres Draco (Imp Knight) would all be appropriate re-issues (but I love Quinlan Vos, yet 3 different releases for him without a larger variety of EU figures got tiresome - where is Anakin Solo when we have 3 Quinlan Voses? Where is Nomi Sunrider?

How about a single-carded army-builder Yuuzhan Vong while we're at it?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
07-15-2012, 01:50 AM
TheForce.net (http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/SDCC_The_Clone_Wars_Season_5_Panel_147001.asp) posted an article with tidbits from The Clone Wars panel at SDCC, with links to two awesome previews - one with Maul and Savage taking down security droids, and one with Sidious arriving on Mandalore and Obi-Wan in Death Watch armor. Holy what!!! They're showing the season premiere at CVI, so I might just blow a circuit right then and there. :D

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-25-2012, 10:27 AM
The episode guide for "Revival" (http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep501/) is up. I didn't get to see it at CVI, and I probably won't be able to see the episode until later on Saturday, but I'm damn excited. There's a supremely awesome character design in the preview slideshow with which you should already be familiar. I'm just waiting for the s***storm after the retcon for one character I know is coming after this episode.

It looks like this season will be picking up several threads started previously and focusing on characters created for the show a little more (Hondo, Satine, Death Watch, Lux, etc.), so hopefully it will feel a little more connected and "whole" than some seasons have previously.

Tycho
09-25-2012, 02:18 PM
That's very cool news, JabbaJohn.

I have especially enjoyed Hondo Ohnaka and Dutchess Satine being on the show in previous seasons, and who can forget about Death Watch?

I am enjoying these elements more than I am buying Maul should have been brought back and not KIA in TPM.

Battle Droid
09-30-2012, 04:07 PM
Revival was awful, Maul should've stayed dead.

Bel-Cam Jos
09-30-2012, 09:55 PM
I liked the look (not so much the voice) of the Blue Snaggs. Storyline was pretty weak, I agree, Battle Droid.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-01-2012, 12:16 AM
I really enjoyed it - a lot more than last season's opening. I thought the story was quite good for what it was - the start of Maul and Savage's pillaging in the galaxy and their formation of a plan, so I wouldn't call it "weak" as there's still much more to this storyline throughout the season. The fight between Obi-Wan and the brothers was damn awesome - I wasn't expecting him to break Savage's leg and take his arm, that was brutal. It was great to see Hondo back, and I loved how he was proud of his men for being traitors. :D

I wonder how Adi's different death will be handled. Previously, she was killed by Grievous in the Obsession arc of the Republic comics, though since Ventress' story is now so different than in there I doubt they'll be keeping much of it. If they do, maybe they'll just say Grievous wounded her and Savage actually killed her. I'm still wondering if Stass Allie will be introduced as well. I liked the Obsession story, but I won't be sad if they get rid of it and the Master Bayts character - that was just embarrassing that they let that get to print.

The moment with Palpatine at the end was very intriguing. Does he want the Jedi to ignore Maul so that Maul can cause more unrest apart from the war, as they acknowledged was happening already? Or is it just so he can take out Maul himself, as we see him attempt to do in the trailer? The final shot was great. One thing that struck me was that one line - I believe it was about "petty crooks" or something along those lines - sounded like it was done by a different performer, perhaps whoever is taking on the role after Ian Abercrombie's death.

The episode guide notes that Grievous' attack on the Florrum pirates was "a story that has yet to be told (though lucky viewers did get to see it at Celebration VI)," which must be the Young Jedi Knights arc/pilot for a new series/whatever it was.

Battle Droid, did you not like solely based on the fact that you don't like Maul coming back, or something else?

On the visual side of things, it looks like at least Hondo and Yoda got new character models, with much more movement (and jewelry) for the former and a new hairdo for the latter. (The episode guide confirms that Palpatine and Yoda both received subtle changes and less-stylized hair along with updated facial rigging.) Obi-Wan looked like he had more facial movement, as Darth Maul is much more articulated than other characters once were. The green Nightsister mist pouring out of Savage and Maul's wounds was an interesting touch. It was both cool and odd to see different Weequay designs for the first time since the pirates were introduced in Season One. This was also the first time I was able to watch it in HD since Season Three, and it looks so much more amazing in that format.

I actually bought the Target exclusive Darth Maul Returns DVD and watched it the night before the premiere. It's not just the last four episodes of Season Four presented in order - it's an 88-minute cut that flows as an actual movie. The episode "Brothers," where Savage looks for Maul on Lotho Minor, was cut up here; the scenes of Savage at the diner and forcing the pilot to take him to Lotho Minor played before "Massacre," and the rest of "Brothers" played between "Massacre" and "Bounty." It actually flows a lot better this way, even though it removed a few scenes where characters felt a dark presence and puts them into timeline-related question (I'm completely fine without those, though I assume they'll be in the original episode on the Season Four DVD set). If you can spare $10, I suggest that anyone who's interested should check it out.

Tycho
10-01-2012, 03:26 PM
I will double-post here because I wanted to put down my impression before I considered JabbaJohn's which I will definitely do in the next go-round.

But this will be my opinion, not influenced by anything at the moment.

I liked the episode but really think they should have left Darth Maul dead all along.

In TPM, to avenge Qui-Gon (TAKE REVENGE - key point) - an enraged Obi-Wan attacks Darth Maul with fury.

In ESB, Yoda says "Much anger in him. Like his father....He is reckless." [concerning the training of Luke] and Obi-Wan's spirit replies, "So was I, if you remember." - Yeah - Obi-Wan got mad and attacked relentlessly and chopped a guy in half! (definitely killing him, or so we were once led to believe before $$$ started appearing in everyone's eyes at Lucasfilm who felt kids would buy into Darth Maul like they did 13 years ago.**)

**Officially, Darth Maul was brought back by Dark Horse Comics (and unfortunately) who started with the lower-half cyborg body. Dark Horse also saw $$$ for trying to satisfy expectations that Maul would be the ultimate new Sith Lord. So they brought him back for cash and a portion of the fan segment who wanted more Maul.

MY OPINION - (supported in James Luceno's Darth Plageuis novel) - Darth Maul was a tool.

The Master: Darth Plagueis (rich Muun who supervised banking for big pharmaceutical corps trained by a Bith Master)
The Apprentice: Darth Sidious (wealthy Naboo, eventually becomes Emperor)

The Sith Lords began a habit of turning to Dathomir for Dark Side assassins.

Now maybe a normal Zabrak could have been an ELECTED and POPULAR public official - like an Old Republic Chancellor for example, but a freak with tattoos all over his face wasn't going to be dangerous in that way. He'd always have to stay in the shadows. Sidious LIED to him when he said he was going to be his apprentice and a Sith Lord.

But when Sidious killed Plagueis, Maul was next in line - though Sidious was already courting and grooming Tyranus (rich Count Dooku of Serreno, Jedi Master).

Darth Tyranus (Dooku) could be ELECTED and POPULAR and ultimately was, as the Separatist Council Leader. He was the single most dangerous Sith Lord, because as he tried to attack and kill his own master (Sidious) as was his duty and his hunger for power as a true Sith Lord, he could take over the galaxy with his Droid Army, the alligned worlds with warriors like the Geonosians for example, and Durge, Jango Fett, General Grievous, and his own Sith-Apprentice-Wannabe (from Dathomir) - the Night Sister Asajj Ventress. And to replace her, he got Maul's brother, Savage Opress.

Darth Maul is dellusional if he thinks he is a Sith Lord or can train Savage into being one. Sidious kept many things from him - no Force lightning that we've seen - no choke holds - etc. He's still untrained and now half-crazy.

That's kind of interesting though.

But wait a minute - WHO IS THE MAIN CHARACTER IN ALL OF THIS?

Oh yeah - It's OBI-WAN KENOBI who sought power from his own Dark Side to avenge the death of Qui-Gon.

"He is reckless" - Yoda in ESB.

"So was I, if you remember." - Obi-Wan in ESB

So in conclusion, using Darth Maul like this, even though he was on-screen in a movie, is like using Asajj Ventress' character to cheapen Obi-Wan's story.

Obi-Wan's furious attack is repelled and he's pushed into the reactor shaft and hanging there while Darth Maul rains hot sparks from his lightsaber down on Obi-Wan, who seems to have been made helpless by losing himself to his blind rage over Qui-Gon being slayed by this Sith Apprentice.

However, like a real Jedi Knight (as he was knighted immediately following this - on screen - on Naboo - by Master Yoda), Obi-Wan reaches into the Force and finds his calm center and realizes he can reach for Qui-Gon's lightsaber, having lost his own in his ill-fated attack just moments before.

Like Luke finding himself in the Force while trapped in the wampa cave in ESB, his saber just out of reach, Obi-Wan calls upon his power of telekenisis, and fully-traning as a Jedi, he hurls himself out of the reactor shaft, above Darth Maul, and slays him by bi-secting him in half!

Qui-Gon is avenged, but Darth Maul brought his own destruction upon himself because he underestimated the greatest Jedi ever shown in the SW movies - Obi-Wan Kenobi. (OK - maybe 2nd greatest with respect to Yoda).

Now if you like that interpretation of TPM, and Obi-Wan's larger role in the saga as he comes of age as a Jedi, you probably don't like it being cheapened by having all his enemies coming back as cyborgs.

The key one is Anakin Skywalker who comes back as the cyborg Darth Vader.

This begs the question when they are going to put the slain Darth Tyranus' head on a Mouse Droid with a thermal detonator and have it chase Obi-Wan across the galaxy?

With General Grievous, Obi-Wan has learned to make sure his enemy is dead.

With Anakin, he cannot bring himself to deliberately interfere with nature's course further, and that is his singular mistake - Obi-Wan's emotion leading him to leave Anakin alive on Mustafar even though Obi-Wan didn't think he'd survive.

Then you have the horror of the first time Darth Vader comes back, an ememy from the past, for a confrontation in the present, when Obi-Wan faces Vader again on the Death Star in ANH.

Now this happens to Obi-Wan every week. So I ask again: where is Dooku's head mounted on a Mouse Droid?

JediTricks
10-01-2012, 09:44 PM
Revival was awful, Maul should've stayed dead.Agreed on both parts.


I liked the look (not so much the voice) of the Blue Snaggs. Storyline was pretty weak, I agree, Battle Droid.I liked the voice work on Blue Snags, I just didn't like it applied to the way that character looked, it didn't quite fit. I was up in the air about it though compared to you. And I agree with you both on the story.


The fight between Obi-Wan and the brothers was damn awesome - I wasn't expecting him to break Savage's leg and take his arm, that was brutal.It wasn't his leg, it was his knee - I guess 5th time's a charm. That made no sense to me, they intentionally showed 3 or 4 previous attempts on his knees and he shook them all off, were they wearing him down? It didn't make sense to me.


It was great to see Hondo back, and I loved how he was proud of his men for being traitors. :DThat was cute.


I wonder how Adi's different death will be handled. Previously, she was killed by Grievous in the Obsession arc of the Republic comics, though since Ventress' story is now so different than in there I doubt they'll be keeping much of it. If they do, maybe they'll just say Grievous wounded her and Savage actually killed her. I'm still wondering if Stass Allie will be introduced as well. I liked the Obsession story, but I won't be sad if they get rid of it and the Master Bayts character - that was just embarrassing that they let that get to print.Chee says CW is the official word on it.


The moment with Palpatine at the end was very intriguing. Does he want the Jedi to ignore Maul so that Maul can cause more unrest apart from the war, as they acknowledged was happening already? Or is it just so he can take out Maul himself, as we see him attempt to do in the trailer? The final shot was great. One thing that struck me was that one line - I believe it was about "petty crooks" or something along those lines - sounded like it was done by a different performer, perhaps whoever is taking on the role after Ian Abercrombie's death.Sounded like Ian Abercrombie to me, and he was credited. I think Palps was annoyed that someone else was moving in on the Sith action and was going to deal with it himself or via Dooku (it'd be nice to see Dooku earn his Sith keep).


On the visual side of things, it looks like at least Hondo and Yoda got new character models, with much more movement (and jewelry) for the former and a new hairdo for the latter. (The episode guide confirms that Palpatine and Yoda both received subtle changes and less-stylized hair along with updated facial rigging.) Obi-Wan looked like he had more facial movement, as Darth Maul is much more articulated than other characters once were. The green Nightsister mist pouring out of Savage and Maul's wounds was an interesting touch. It was both cool and odd to see different Weequay designs for the first time since the pirates were introduced in Season One. This was also the first time I was able to watch it in HD since Season Three, and it looks so much more amazing in that format.I didn't like the new look for Hondo, it looked like a flat mask, a texture now instead of craggy. I didn't notice Yoda at all in any sense.


So, I didn't like this episode much at all. Maul's behavior towards Savage and the pirates was one where he thinks he's entitled to an apprentice and to an army, and tries to get them through sheer threats and force of will - it's flat and silly. Savage goring Adi Galia was interesting, hadn't seen that before despite it seeming fairly natural, but it would have meant more if we had gotten to know her at all on the show - she's always been a rather dull Jedi in my book in the various media (at least they got her Genndy Clone Wars voice actor for this role). Obi-Wan dispatches the brothers Opress pretty handily too, so with a Jedi dying and him flipping out a little and grabbing a fallen's saber and hacking off body parts, this episode's culmination felt like a repeat of The Phantom Menace where Maul first died. Neither rung true to how Star Wars deals with limb-vs-saber action. Hondo was fun to revisit, but his pirates really didn't have much thought here and it felt like a cheap side. And why exactly does Maul's robot leg bleed green gassy goo the same way Savage's arm does? Is it due to them both being rebuilt by Nightsister powers? That could have used more explanation, it stood out not in a good way.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-01-2012, 10:36 PM
**Officially, Darth Maul was brought back by Dark Horse Comics (and unfortunately) who started with the lower-half cyborg body. Dark Horse also saw $$$ for trying to satisfy expectations that Maul would be the ultimate new Sith Lord. So they brought him back for cash and a portion of the fan segment who wanted more Maul.
This wasn't canon - it was a one-shot in Visionaries, nothing more than an exercise in "what if?" It influenced the design of Maul in TCW, but that's it.


It wasn't his leg, it was his knee - I guess 5th time's a charm. That made no sense to me, they intentionally showed 3 or 4 previous attempts on his knees and he shook them all off, were they wearing him down? It didn't make sense to me.
I thought that was exactly it - they were wearing it down, and he could only take so many direct hits to the knee.


And why exactly does Maul's robot leg bleed green gassy goo the same way Savage's arm does? Is it due to them both being rebuilt by Nightsister powers? That could have used more explanation, it stood out not in a good way.
Again, your possible answer is what I thought was the case. Talzin created Maul's legs similarly to how she made Savage into a monster, so it's a reminder of their dark, strange origins.


Sounded like Ian Abercrombie to me, and he was credited. I think Palps was annoyed that someone else was moving in on the Sith action and was going to deal with it himself or via Dooku (it'd be nice to see Dooku earn his Sith keep).
It was definitely Abercrombie for most of the time, but there's one sentence - at around 20:40 in the episode (http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep501/#!/media/fullepisode), after Obi-Wan comments on Maul trying to form an army of pirates, Palpatine says, "So let him. Let him play with the rabble. They're just petty crooks. It is of no relevance to the Senate compared to the Separatist threat." The "They're just petty crooks" line sticks out like a sore thumb, even though everything around it sounded normal, so I'm thinking it was some ADR done after Abercrombie died by a different actor. It sounds nothing like him, and it was mixed bizarrely when I watched it on TV.

Tycho
10-02-2012, 10:16 AM
With the smaller $20 price point ships, and Hondo Ohnaka's pirate ships appearing again, don't you think Hasbro can offer the Rapier-One?

This is the Weequay flying saucer fighters (the smaller ones as compared to the big mother ship they once salvaged Dooku's solar sailor from).

I'd love it if it came with a unique Weequay pirate figure that hadn't been made previously (not the one from the Hostage Crisis battlepack, nor another Hondo).

This ship need only hold one figure and have firing twin blasters mounted on it at the cross frame.

I also wish they'd make Hondo's tank from the bounty hunter episode with Embo and Seripas. I'm not sure, but maybe they used similar tanks when JarJar took over one when he tried to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan from Hondo.

I don't recall if the new ships will include pack-in figures or not.

JediTricks
10-02-2012, 11:00 PM
I thought that was exactly it - they were wearing it down, and he could only take so many direct hits to the knee.That is video game logic, it's worthless in regular fiction. If they had shown Savage grimacing on the last hit or limping or even favoring the other leg and Obi-Wan commented on it, MAYBE they could get away with it, but none of that happened. Kenobi looked at the leg yet again and kicked it just like he did before when he got no results, yet magically because the plot needed to move along with Kenobi not dead, that time it worked. It's bad storytelling and it's also annoying in video games.


Again, your possible answer is what I thought was the case. Talzin created Maul's legs similarly to how she made Savage into a monster, so it's a reminder of their dark, strange origins.If there was some active explanation taken maybe it could get away with being so vastly different from everything else in SW, but why would robot legs act anything like humanoid flesh? If the legs are so magical, why bother being robotic at all? It's another logic-hole that creates a nigh-subconscious distraction.


It was definitely Abercrombie for most of the time, but there's one sentence - at around 20:40 in the episode (http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep501/#!/media/fullepisode), after Obi-Wan comments on Maul trying to form an army of pirates, Palpatine says, "So let him. Let him play with the rabble. They're just petty crooks. It is of no relevance to the Senate compared to the Separatist threat." The "They're just petty crooks" line sticks out like a sore thumb, even though everything around it sounded normal, so I'm thinking it was some ADR done after Abercrombie died by a different actor. It sounds nothing like him, and it was mixed bizarrely when I watched it on TV.I didn't notice, it could be an odd line read, or it could be what you said. I didn't save it.





With the smaller $20 price point ships, and Hondo Ohnaka's pirate ships appearing again, don't you think Hasbro can offer the Rapier-One?

This is the Weequay flying saucer fighters (the smaller ones as compared to the big mother ship they once salvaged Dooku's solar sailor from).

I'd love it if it came with a unique Weequay pirate figure that hadn't been made previously (not the one from the Hostage Crisis battlepack, nor another Hondo).

This ship need only hold one figure and have firing twin blasters mounted on it at the cross frame.

I also wish they'd make Hondo's tank from the bounty hunter episode with Embo and Seripas. I'm not sure, but maybe they used similar tanks when JarJar took over one when he tried to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan from Hondo.

I don't recall if the new ships will include pack-in figures or not.No, I don't think it'd work in that pricepoint, it's a very flat saucer and has no external features aside from the engines which aren't terribly thick.

The new $20 vehicles don't come with figures.

Tycho
10-03-2012, 05:30 AM
to JediTricks:

well, I hope Hasbro surprises us. Although I begged for the Sith Infiltrator even off-scale and I was terribly WRONG about that, I stil would like to chance new vehicles never-made-before.

Possibly in that $20 price point.

Or better yet - they could offer something new in the $30 and up category (possibly over-priced for what it is) but still get us the Gungan Sub, Utopau Fighter, Gian Speeder, Slaver "blastboat" (the one I thought similar to the Skipray that Mara and Luke use), and the Z-95 plus more - like the Lars Landspeeder, Wookiee Catamaran, etc.

They cannot sell Jedi Starfighters or Slave-One (save for a Boba Fett repaint of the B-Slave-One) to most of us.

And while the kids would get the $20 ships, especially youngsters for whom that would be their very first Jedi Starfighter, the kids would also get (perhaps at Christmas time) the larger vehicles.

Now I did just buy the MTT the other month and I hope it does well at full retail price so there can be a Jabba Sailbarge, not to mention a Blockade Runner and Star Destroyer, a Republic Cruiser, Acclamator Class Destroyer, and Venerator Class, plus Separatist Frigate, etc. But other "larger but smaller" vehicles like Hondo's ships and tanks also need to see production. The only other "bad guy" characters besides Hondo or the Separatists who seems to have custom ships in CW are the bounty hunters and Mandalorians. In fact the ship that Embo and Seripas use is a repaint and heavily armed version of the HAZMAT vehicle Padme and JarJar use on Naboo if I'm not mistaken.

Oh, but Dooku and Ventress need their ships and maybe that Nightsister speederbike with sidecar?

Back to JabbaJohnL:



there's still much more to this storyline throughout the season. The fight between Obi-Wan and the brothers ...

I hope there's a point to it and not just fanwank.



- I wasn't expecting him to break Savage's leg and take his arm, that was brutal.

Yup. Cool. At least we saw a fight with consequences.


It was great to see Hondo back, and I loved how he was proud of his men for being traitors. :D

Hondo's one of my favorite characters. He's like an alien version of a Lando Calrissian. Hondo has some kind of honor amongst thieves in spite of denying it. He has some sort of off-the-mark-type of class. I think his taste for fancy clothes and his cavalier attitude is what reminds me of Lando.


I wonder how Adi's different death will be handled. Previously, she was killed by Grievous in the Obsession arc of the Republic comics, though since Ventress' story is now so different than in there I doubt they'll be keeping much of it. If they do, maybe they'll just say Grievous wounded her and Savage actually killed her. I'm still wondering if Stass Allie will be introduced as well. I liked the Obsession story, but I won't be sad if they get rid of it and the Master Bayts character - that was just embarrassing that they let that get to print.


LOL. I don't remember Master Bayts. Too funny. Did he have an apprentice Vasso Lyn?

Jedi Council deaths - hmmm?

TPM Jedi Council....

Yoda - died of natural causes (ROTJ)
Mace - killed ROTS by Palpatine and Anakin (presumably)
Plo Koon - killed by his Clone Pilots (ROTS)
Ki-Adi Mundi - killed by Cmdr. Bacara (ROTS)
SaeSee Tiin - killed by Palpatine (ROTS)
Eeth Koth - killed in CW by Grievous I think
Adi Gallia - killed in CW by Savage Opress (and there is another story in Dark Horse?)
Deppa Billaba - driven insane in Del Rey's Shatterpoint and put in Jedi lockdown. Unknown fate during Order 66.
Oppo Rancisis - killed in Dark Horse comics I think???
Even Piel - killed at the Citadel by Separatists in CW
Yaddle - killed before the Clone Wars in Scholastic Books' Jedi Apprentice
Yarael Poof - killed before the Clone Wars in "Zam Wessel" comic by Dark Horse

Coleman Trebor - killed by Jango Fett in AOTC
Shaak-Ti - possibly killed by Starkiller in The Force Unleashed by LucasArts

Stass Allie - killed by Neo in ROTS
Agen Kolar - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Kit Fisto - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Pablo Jill - fate unknown, location during Order 66 unknown - he was alive during part of ROTS

Anakin Skywalker - betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader (from a certain point of view)

Obi-Wan Kenobi - killed by Darth Vader

And some say there was a lizard species Jedi on the Council like Coleman Trebor's species or something similar to the creature in Palpatine's box seats at the Coruscant Opera. I don't think there was room on the 12-seat council for such a character.






The moment with Palpatine at the end was very intriguing. Does he want the Jedi to ignore Maul so that Maul can cause more unrest apart from the war, as they acknowledged was happening already? Or is it just so he can take out Maul himself, as we see him attempt to do in the trailer? \

I haven't seen that trailer. Palpatine versus Maul? That'd be interesting. I think I saw Tyranus versus Maul in the trailer and Maul called Dooku a Sith Pretender.

There is an old story that said Anakin killed every Sith Lord before him, but in Dark Horse, Cyborg Maul survives to fight Obi-Wan on Tatooine. I think that's the Visionaries story JabbaJohn said was not cannon. (by the way, I can't stand there being non-congruent cannon - a chronology makes SW EU so special).

But if Anakin takes care of Maul, and then obviously Tyranus in ROTS, it would be interesting and consistent with an old tale that Vader slayed all his rivals (and we know he eventually took out Sidious in ROTJ to save Luke) so that does (sort of) make Vader the most powerful Sith Lord ever (even though he didn't have all the powers that Sidious and Tyranus displayed).



The episode guide notes that Grievous' attack on the Florrum pirates was "a story that has yet to be told (though lucky viewers did get to see it at Celebration VI)," which must be the Young Jedi Knights arc/pilot for a new series/whatever it was.

Something I missed that I would have actually liked to have been at CVI to experience.



It was both cool and odd to see different Weequay designs for the first time since the pirates were introduced in Season One.

Agreed. I love the Weequay pirates and I wish Hasbro would whip out a battlepack of several different designs so Hondo could have an army.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-03-2012, 08:36 PM
Jedi Council deaths - hmmm?

TPM Jedi Council....

Yoda - died of natural causes (ROTJ)
Mace - killed ROTS by Palpatine and Anakin (presumably)
Plo Koon - killed by his Clone Pilots (ROTS)
Ki-Adi Mundi - killed by Cmdr. Bacara (ROTS)
SaeSee Tiin - killed by Palpatine (ROTS)
Eeth Koth - killed in CW by Grievous I think
Adi Gallia - killed in CW by Savage Opress (and there is another story in Dark Horse?)
Deppa Billaba - driven insane in Del Rey's Shatterpoint and put in Jedi lockdown. Unknown fate during Order 66.
Oppo Rancisis - killed in Dark Horse comics I think???
Even Piel - killed at the Citadel by Separatists in CW
Yaddle - killed before the Clone Wars in Scholastic Books' Jedi Apprentice
Yarael Poof - killed before the Clone Wars in "Zam Wessel" comic by Dark Horse

Coleman Trebor - killed by Jango Fett in AOTC
Shaak-Ti - possibly killed by Starkiller in The Force Unleashed by LucasArts

Stass Allie - killed by Neo in ROTS
Agen Kolar - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Kit Fisto - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Pablo Jill - fate unknown, location during Order 66 unknown - he was alive during part of ROTS

Anakin Skywalker - betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader (from a certain point of view)

Obi-Wan Kenobi - killed by Darth Vader

And some say there was a lizard species Jedi on the Council like Coleman Trebor's species or something similar to the creature in Palpatine's box seats at the Coruscant Opera. I don't think there was room on the 12-seat council for such a character.

Eeth Koth's death hasn't been depicted yet. The book Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones said that he died at the Battle of Geonosis, but no new footage was shot for AOTC - he was recast and then changed to Agen Kolar since the actors looked too different (it's the same thing that happened with Adi Gallia/Stass Allie and, less notably, Depa Billaba/Sarr Labooda), and he only appears in the Council scene in AOTC using archival TPM footage. That brief mention in that one book - his Geonosis death was never mentioned anywhere else - was retconned by The Clone Wars, in which he's presumably still alive and well, though he hasn't appeared since Season Three.

Oppo Rancisis was killed in the Republic comics by fallen Weequay Jedi Sora Bulq near the end of the war. He hasn't appeared in the show yet.

Pablo-Jill isn't in ROTS - just AOTC. According to the EU, he was killed by Grievous during the Battle of Coruscant (as depicted in Labyrinth of Evil, though he wasn't mentioned by name then). He was never on the Jedi High Council. The Ongree Jedi in ROTS is Coleman Kcaj. Neither character has appeared in the series, or in any other source other than their respective movies and the aforementioned appearance in Labyrinth of Evil.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Palpatine's opera box comment. Sweitt Concorkill (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sweitt_Concorkill) appears in the box along with Mas Amedda and Sly Moore, and he is a Vurk like Coleman Trebor. (There was some naming confusion around the release of ROTS, shifting and mixing up the names of the various Vurk and Ongree characters, which is already bad enough with both species having a Jedi Council member named Coleman).

Tycho
10-04-2012, 09:27 AM
Could you name the Episode 3 Jedi Council and correct me if I make any error below:

TPM

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki Adi Mundi
SaeSee Tiin
Adi Galia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piel
Yaddle
Yarael Poof
Depa Billaba


AOTC

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki Adi Mundi
SaeSee Tiin
Stass Allie
Agen Kolar
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piel
Shaak-Ti
Coleman Trebor
Deppa Billaba

ROTS

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki Adi Mundi
SaeSee Tiin
Stass Allie
Agen Kolar
Kit Fisto
Anakin Skywalker
Obi-Wan Kenobi
??? (Shaak-Ti - or is she injured by General Grievous (originally going to be her death but she lives for Force Unleashed)
??? (this is why I thought Pablo Jill was on the Council by this point)

Thank you.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-04-2012, 11:58 AM
Tycho, you're mostly correct, but I'll take the list and make some changes (including spelling).

TPM

Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Adi Gallia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Yaddle
Yarael Poof
Depa Billaba


AOTC

Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Adi Gallia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Shaak Ti
Coleman Trebor
Depa Billaba

Clone Wars micro-series

Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Adi Gallia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Shaak Ti
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Kit Fisto

ROTS

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Stass Allie
Agen Kolar
Coleman Kcaj
Shaak Ti
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Kit Fisto
Anakin Skywalker

Shaak Ti and Stass Allie are only seen on the Council via Yoda's hologram on Kashyyyk. The Shaak Ti scene on the Invisisble Hand with her getting stabbed by Grievous does not count, and neither does the deleted scene with her getting stabbed by Anakin in the Jedi Temple. In the current EU, she survives ROTS and Order 66 to be defeated by Starkiller on Felucia.

I included the micro-series just for reference. (The Adi Gallia and Eeth Koth characters were originally designated as Stass Allie and Agen Kolar there, but the animation models looked more like Adi and Eeth, and the current series and later EU said that those characters were still alive, so they were retconned into being Adi and Eeth.) The current series has never shown all seats taken, more likely due to not having all the available animation models at any given time than anything else. We've seen all the same characters from the micro-series Council, aside from Oppo Rancisis, though I don't think we've seen them all sitting in the chamber in the show. From the micro-series list, Adi Gallia and Even Piell have both died in the current series, so they have probably been replaced on the Council.


Something I missed that I would have actually liked to have been at CVI to experience.
I talked about the screening (which I didn't attend) in this thread (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php/46287-Young-Jedi-Knights).

Tycho
10-05-2012, 11:57 AM
So it looks like Anakin got Even Piel's seat.

Originally it was going to be Shaak-Ti's, eh?

I thought the Agen / Stass replacements occurred between TPM and AOTC because that's when they switched from London to Sydney for filming. Sure, they could have used old shots for fill-in. (guess they did) Seems cheap though, huh?

I always liked the update to Oppo for AOTC where you could see his tail moving.

There were also supposed to be:

4 permanent members
4 long term
4 short term
4 temporary / guest members

of the high council.

Do you know which were which?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-05-2012, 12:30 PM
So it looks like Anakin got Even Piel's seat.

Originally it was going to be Shaak-Ti's, eh?

I thought the Agen / Stass replacements occurred between TPM and AOTC because that's when they switched from London to Sydney for filming. Sure, they could have used old shots for fill-in. (guess they did) Seems cheap though, huh?

I always liked the update to Oppo for AOTC where you could see his tail moving.

There were also supposed to be:

4 permanent members
4 long term
4 short term
4 temporary / guest members

of the high council.

Do you know which were which?
The Agen/Stass replacements did indeed take place between TPM and AOTC due to recasting with Australian locals rather than English locals. That's why Agen and Stass appear in the new Geonosis footage and Eeth and Adi do not - but the footage in the Council chamber is recycled. Since there's only one full-council scene, it was just easier to do that than to rebuild the set. So AOTC features Eeth and Adi on Coruscant and Agen and Stass on Geonosis.

I'm not sure how the Council member terms are reflected in the films - I believe that was established in the TPM-era EU and reference books, but they didn't necessarily follow it while making the actual films.

I'm also not sure what you mean about Even Piell's seat being meant for Shaak Ti - she was on the Council for the entirety of The Clone Wars, before and after Even Piell's death.

El Chuxter
10-05-2012, 12:35 PM
You think they would've cast actors who looked more similar to the original actors for AOTC. I guess they didn't learn their lesson when everyone immediately recognized the "Mace Windu" in the Naboo landing scene as about as far from Samuel L Jackson as you can be and still be a bald African-American dude.

Tycho
10-05-2012, 02:09 PM
JabbaJohn, I didn't mean Shaak got Even's seat. I know they were both on the Council at the same time for a while.

I meant that Anakin got Even's seat.

Originally I thought Anakin was going to get Shaak's seat, as she would be the last Council member to die before Palpatine got Anakin appointed to the Jedi Council.

It WAS really arrogant of him (as just a Supreme Chancellor for as much as the Jedi knew at the time) to dictate that Anakin be installed on the Council.

EU suggested that Ki-Adi Mundi was the first Knight to be on the Council.

"A Master" is a Jedi who successfully trained another Knight from a Padawan apprentice status. So far as I understand it.

Ki-Adi was already on the Council when he became A'Sharad Hett's master. "Darth Krayyt" fans already know how that one turned out.

ElChuxter - I didn't know they found another shaved-bald black guy to play Mace in the Naboo landing scene - I guess that's the end of TPM?

Anyway - this is interesting. Who were the Jedi Council members former Masters and Apprentices:


MASTER......................CHARACTER............. ..............THEIR APPRENTICE

.................................Yoda............. ........................Dooku, in general Obi-Wan, Luke
.................................Mace............. .........................Depa Billaba
Dark Woman................Ki Adi Mundi...........................A'Sharad Hett (post TPM, Mundi was a Knight)
a Wookiee Jedi............Plo Koon.................................??? (found Ahskoa but not her instructor)
.................................SaeSee Tiin.............................???
.................................Eeth Koth................................???
.................................Adi Gallia................................(Siri Tachi, blonde human girl, Obi-Wan's early gf, in J-Apprt)
..................................Oppo Rancisis..........................???
..................................Even Piel.................................???
in "One Below" cmc........Yaddle................................. .....???
..................................Yarael Poof................................???
Mace Windu..................Deppa Billaba..........................XXX - Clone Wars drove her insane, no apprentice
..................................Agen Kolar...............................???
..................................Stass Alie.................................???
...................................Kit Fisto..................................Nadon Vebb (Mon Calamari)
Qui-Gon Jinn..................Obi-Wan Kenobi.......................Anakin Skywalker
Obi-Wan Kenobi.............Anakin Skywalker.......................Ahsoka Tano (training probably not complete)
....................................Coleman Ckaj..........................???
...................................Shaak-Ti..................................(what about the Talz and Ithorian Jedi from the MicrSeries?)

(is Coleman CKaj the same species as Pablo Jill?)



CHARACTER...........................THEIR CLONE COMMANDER

Yoda.....................................??? (Gree or was he really Luminara's commander?)
Mace.....................................Stone (only? or were there others?)
Ki Adi Mundi...........................Bacara (or was Jett also under his command at Geonosis? Did Jett live?)
Plo Koon.................................Wolfe
SaeSee Tiin.............................?
Eeth Koth................................?
Adi Gallia................................?
Oppo Rancisis..........................?
Even Piel.................................?
Yaddle.....................................XXX died before the Clone Wars
Yarael Poof...............................XXX died before the Clone Wars
Deppa Billaba..........................XXX - Clone Wars drove her insane, I don't think she had a command b4 that
Agen Kolar...............................?
Stass Alie................................Neo
Kit Fisto..................................? Forgot his name. Wasn't he killed at Grievous' lair?
Obi-Wan Kenobi.......................Alpha (ARC Trooper), Cody
Anakin Skywalker......................Rex, Oppo, Bow (different 501st Cmdrs. Were they successive promotions?)
Coleman Ckaj..........................?
Shaak-Ti..................................?

jedibear
10-06-2012, 10:03 PM
Looking at Episode S5.02 "A War On Two Fronts"....

Now this was more like it for me. Didn't care for last week's season opener...more of Maul and his brother's antics. It's an idea (bringing Maul back from the dead) that ran out of steam before it started for me and I hope it wraps soon...unlikely though, since we see Maul twirl his invisible mustache and exit stage left to return again later when the writers get lazy and want to play another round of "Wouldn't it be cool if..."

But this week's entry was terrific...22 minutes of packed story that moved the saga of the CW closer to what we saw in ROTS. The Jedi are further compromised from their ideals as the war drags on, the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan grows more strained and Ashoka continues to develop into a character that actually contributes more to the ongoing story than just plucky sidekick/cute girl power. If one pays attention here, glimmers of where her character may be headed in the overall saga are starting to show...and what a cool choice it could be for her. Like Assaj Ventress in Season 4, Ashoka is really turning out to be more that just a one-note character...and it makes her appearances interesting instead of irritating.

I'm also impressed with the jump in production quality this episode represented, Visually, the environments and backgrounds are more detailed and lush then ever, and while there was a lot of previously used assets with the flora and animal life on this planet (lots of Naboo-related beasts, from Fambaas to Falumpasets), it was integrated in a way that really upped the production...really beautiful to look at.

The character animation is just getting better too....the characters are "acting" as much with subtle expressions and movements as they do through dialog, from Anakin's Vader-like body language, to the meaningful glances between characters, it's come a long way from the static, limited expressions they featured in the past, Heck, one could argue these animated characters are exhibiting more emotion and movement than their live-action counterparts did in the movies, in some instances.

I've always liked the more character-driven, saga/story heavy episodes of this show....always up for some good whiz-bang, but when "The Clone Wars" hits both of those marks, it can be pretty good viewing, and this episode hit those marks for me...

jonthejedi
10-07-2012, 05:46 AM
I have to agree with jedibear on all counts. I also loved where Ahsoka may be heading(all that eye contact with Lux, etc), the creature design & espec. Rex's commando gear. Did anyone not pick up the audio homage to the ESB Imp. probe droid?

Bel-Cam Jos
10-07-2012, 10:08 AM
I got the probot sounds pretty quickly. Anyone find the irony in MaybeVaderSometimeLater supporting rebels? At one point, I thought I saw gear that was similar to the Rebel Fleet Troopers, but couldn't find it upon rewind.

This to me seemed more realistic of what the CW era would've been like: small worlds and skirmishes mainly, with occasional big battles. The episode was pretty good.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-07-2012, 05:42 PM
It's good to see the continuation of the Ahsoka/Lux story - and Lux looks more like an unkempt soldier this time than he previously did. It's interesting to see Ahsoka more acting her age for once. The war has really matured her as a character and she's a far cry from the annoying little girl she once was, so this is really a reminder that she's still a teenage girl.

Obi-Wan's initial reaction to the idea of rebels - calling them terrorists - is interesting given how he'll play such an important part of the Alliance later on. And the fact that this was Anakin's idea is very cool. Even though this episode mainly served to set up the rest of the arc, I like how it has an actual impact on the overall story of the films.

From a technical standpoint, I'm glad that they finally have actual Jedi robes and not just the sleeveless cloaks they've had until now. It might seem like a small thing, but it's nice to connect it to the movies that much more.

Going back to the Jedi Council talk, this image (http://starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/slideshow/ep502/gallery/ep02.jpg) shows the Jedi Council as of this episode. So we have:

*Plo Koon
*Yoda
*Mace Windu
*Ki-Adi-Mundi (hologram)
*Obi-Wan Kenobi
*Saesee Tiin
*Shaak Ti (hologram, as she is presumably training clones on Kamino)
*Kit Fisto
*Adi Gallia
*Eeth Koth

This leaves two empty chairs. This episode was produced and meant to air earlier than Revival until that episode was pushed up to be the season opener, so Adi Gallia is still alive here. You can see that it was earlier since Yoda still features his spiky hair. The episode guide says that its relation to Revival is in question and that perhaps Adi is now Stass Allie, but I assume they'll just put it earlier.

Tycho
10-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Were two empty chairs shown? YUP!

So Coleman Kcaj (he's Pablo Jill's species, right?) and Anakin Skywalker will take the final two seats by Episode 3, right?

In ROTS, Anakin doens't know what he's talking about, because Ki Adi Mundi was also on the Council and not "made" a Jedi Master. He had to earn it by training a padawan - A'Sharad Hett presumably.

Anyway, I loved the episode solidifying some of my favorite Star Wars Expanded Universe: Tales of the Jedi: Knights of the Old Republic (the original KOTOR was published under the TOTJ title, in which the Freedon Nadd, Dark Lords, and Sith War, plus Redemption titles fell) and Ulic Qel Droma, Nomi Sunrider, and Exar Kun's tales took place originating from events begun on this planet (Onderaan with it's beast riders). The Dxun Moon, in orbit of Onderaan, was the last resting place of the Dark Lord Freedon Nadd (apprentice to Sith Lord Naga Sadow - interned in the later-to-be Rebel Base / Jedi Academy on Yavin IV).

If mention of Freedon Nadd or King Omin (Sith) or Ulic Qel Droma and his Master Arca or more is discussed in the CW, it would be awesome.

Rex is Mandalorian trained and Lux has bad blood with Death Watch - and it was through Ulic Qel Droma (Sith Apprentice) that Mandalore - the forebear of the Mandalorian Warrior culture, became conquered and allied to and by the Sith.

Also, Warb Null, a Sith accolyte, wannabe apprentice of King Omin's (I believe) - who was the King of Iziz (the walled captial city that naturally allied itself to the current Sith Apprentice, Darth Tyranus (Dooku), was one of the earliest Sith turned into a war droid / cyborg like Anakin Skywalker will become as Darth Vader.

All very interesting.

The Onderaan story arc could be huge in terms of its coolness for me.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-08-2012, 12:58 PM
Were two empty chairs shown? YUP!

So Coleman Kcaj (he's Pablo Jill's species, right?) and Anakin Skywalker will take the final two seats by Episode 3, right?

In ROTS, Anakin doens't know what he's talking about, because Ki Adi Mundi was also on the Council and not "made" a Jedi Master. He had to earn it by training a padawan - A'Sharad Hett presumably.
Eeth Koth and Adi Gallia must leave the Council so that Agen Kolar and Stass Allie will take their places. And yes, Coleman Kcaj and Anakin will take the seats eventually, but it's unknown if they will be occupied by other Jedi in the meantime. (The fact that they're still vacant in the show likely means that it won't happen anytime soon, but this is by far the most Jedi we've seen on the Council at once on this show, so who knows.)

Ki-Adi-Mundi joining the Council as a Knight was put in place by TPM-era EU and reference books and ignored by Lucas when he made ROTS and the fact that nobody has ever been put on the Council without being made a Master. It was later retconned so that Ki-Adi-Mundi was still a Knight when he joined the Council, but in the process of becoming a Master. But in Lucas' mind, the Jedi on the Council were always supposed to be Masters.

I can guarantee that this arc won't touch on a single one of the Onderon story points you mentioned, Tycho - so don't get your hopes up for that - but it's cool that there's a lot of history there.

Tycho
10-08-2012, 04:17 PM
JabbaJohn, you've become quite a great base for SW knowledge like I once was making my huge effort to be.

It's good to see and I enjoy conversing with you.

As I used to be quite the info source for EU material, might I recommend the 5 Ulic Qel Droma Dark Horse Comics series to you if you have not ever read them:

Tales of the Jedi: Knights of the Old Republic (this has nothing to do with Raven, Maleck, or Bastilla) but Ulic, Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Mandalore and the first allegiance of the Mandalorian old guard - whom the Death Watch want to honor - with the Sith (and I think why the wildly independent Death Watch would even be dealing with the Separatists - because of Darth Tyranus and ONLY because).

The Freedon Nadd Uprising - the fall-out of the war being brought to Onderan (I assume you know how to spell it).

Dark Lords of the Sith (when Ulic has totally fallen and becomes Exar Kun's apprentice - there are rival Siths - the Krath faction in the Empress Teta System - and when the Mandalorians actually submit to Sith control)

The Sith War - the galaxy-wide confrontation

Redemption - 10 years later when Nomi Sunrider, a survivor, begins to coordinate the establishment of the Jedi High Council and moves it from roving locations like Exis Station to Coruscant where it has remained until Luke has to move it because of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion and the fall of Coruscant 27 years after ANH.

JediTricks
10-08-2012, 11:24 PM
My big issue with Saturday's episode is that there really doesn't seem like a lot of focus on their rebellion, it's just a handful of people as the chief focus and I kept wondering why the Jedi would give a crap one way or the other about this little band. Other than that and the large disparity between the A and B stories (Ahsoka & Lux does not fit well with the Jedi training the Onderonian rebels IMO, they don't share weight), it was an ok episode and something LIKE this - our heroes going low-key and guerrilla and training rebels and preparing to fight a war from the outside and inside - could make a good longer story arc so it had promise.

Tycho
10-09-2012, 11:38 AM
With the little romance / jealousy subplots going, it felt a little like the first X-men movie, as well.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-09-2012, 10:08 PM
JabbaJohn, you've become quite a great base for SW knowledge like I once was making my huge effort to be.

It's good to see and I enjoy conversing with you.
Thanks. I do want to get a little deeper into the EU, so I might check into those stories a bit further. First order of business will have to be Shadows of the Empire, and then I want to get the Crimson Empire trilogy anthology, and then I'll likely jump around and hit some of the high points.


My big issue with Saturday's episode is that there really doesn't seem like a lot of focus on their rebellion, it's just a handful of people as the chief focus and I kept wondering why the Jedi would give a crap one way or the other about this little band. Other than that and the large disparity between the A and B stories (Ahsoka & Lux does not fit well with the Jedi training the Onderonian rebels IMO, they don't share weight), it was an ok episode and something LIKE this - our heroes going low-key and guerrilla and training rebels and preparing to fight a war from the outside and inside - could make a good longer story arc so it had promise.
As the fortune cookie for "Revival" said, "Strength in character can defeat strength in numbers." Steela and Saw seem like promising candidates to start a rebellion, even if their numbers aren't many. It might be a good Jedi strategy to start this new insurgent-training program on a smaller group anyway to avoid attention and potentially go further based on its success or failure - it's more of an initial test than a full-on dedication, it seems.

I'm interested in how this one will play out in terms of both that and the Ahsoka/Lux situation - based on clips shown at CVI, they get a lot deeper into Anakin and Padmé's relationship and its related troubles this season (including how much Obi-Wan actually knows, and a return from Rush Clovis), so having the two storylines and seeing how they impact each other could make for some good character exploration.

Tycho
10-10-2012, 09:36 AM
I think Obi-Wan knew early on about Anakin and Padme - but he tries to train Anakin to make the right choices since that scene in the gunship in AOTC when Padme falls out and Obi-Wan orders the pursuit of Count Dooku.

JabbaJohn, this is the best site I've ever seen with all the SW EU in chronological order, including the CW episodes, the movies, the RPGs, video games, and of course all the comics and books (YA, kids books, too).


http://www.timelineuniverse.net/History.htm

Ask others including myself what the high points are. There's a lot of low points of course, usually focused on by the haters. A reason for their position is often picking up the wrong thing to read first.

Dark Horse's "Tales of the Jedi" from Golden Age of the Sith (Naga Sadow (half-human, half-Sith) vs Ludo Kresh (full Sith) for the title of Dark Lord (after the master Marka Ragnos) dies lays the groundwork for the rise of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma and the enslavement of the Mandalorians to the Sith in Tales of the Jedi (the original KOTOR, Freedon Nadd Uprising, Dark Lords, and Sith War, Redemption stories - in that order).

I think this is one of my favorite Star Wars epics because it feels like a full-tightly woven and complete storyline.

Exar Kun dies and Ulic is redeemed in a great tale. Hasbro made 3 figures (Mandalore, Ulic, and Exar - and ought to make Nomi Sunrider to say nothing of the characters from Onderan and more of the Sith, Krath, Jedi, Republic forces, and Mandalorians, plus their awesome ships like the Nebulon Ranger and Starstorm-One)

Legacy wasn't even this good because I'm not sure I understand what happened to Cade Skywalker and Darth Krayyt and though I am friends with the creators, I think they made Legacy to carry it on forever, so they'd have jobs.

Kevin J. Anderson did TOTJ and he wrapped it up so he could go on and do other things.

Ulic's story arc is one of the greatest in Star Wars history! (I'd like an additional figure of Ulic as a Sith Lord too, btw).

Bel-Cam Jos
10-10-2012, 09:21 PM
Pick up the SW Reader's Companion book that just came out. It has quite a comprehensive breakdown of seemingly every EU storyline. I've only glanced through my copy; no time for read, Dr. Jones. :(

JediTricks
10-13-2012, 03:58 AM
As the fortune cookie for "Revival" said, "Strength in character can defeat strength in numbers." Steela and Saw seem like promising candidates to start a rebellion, even if their numbers aren't many. It might be a good Jedi strategy to start this new insurgent-training program on a smaller group anyway to avoid attention and potentially go further based on its success or failure - it's more of an initial test than a full-on dedication, it seems.I didn't see much strength in character in that group though, there were no Lukes or Leias in there, no Han, not even General Dodonnas. Maybe we'll see more in a few hours, but still, it's asking a lot. It wasn't just Luke & Leia & Han that defeated the Empire either, they hung out with a lot of folks at the end of ANH.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-13-2012, 12:32 PM
I didn't see much strength in character in that group though, there were no Lukes or Leias in there, no Han, not even General Dodonnas. Maybe we'll see more in a few hours, but still, it's asking a lot. It wasn't just Luke & Leia & Han that defeated the Empire either, they hung out with a lot of folks at the end of ANH.
Yeah, but that was when the Rebel Alliance had almost two decades to grow, and it's right after their "first victory against the evil Galactic Empire," and by that time it was a galaxy-wide rebellion against a galaxy-wide oppressor, not just a conflict on one planet. That was the Rebellion at its full power, or close to it, and this is the Rebellion at its very earliest stages.

Or maybe they didn't have the budget to animate a lot of rebel soldiers, I don't know. :D

Battle Droid
10-13-2012, 02:50 PM
Can't wait to see more of the new droid general in next weeks episode, he looks cool.

I hope Hasbro makes a figure of him, even if it's realistic style.

Tycho
10-15-2012, 02:35 PM
The new droid general character looked like a repaint of a tactical droid like TX-20 with a few new parts.

Maybe I need a better look. But they really aren't supposed to out-do General Grievous in that area. He is the premier movie droid general that's supposed to be the $#&!

I also don't think they're supposed to make another Han, Luke, and Leia to be original - but I think they did.

The one dude that Lux has been jealous of is the rebel girl's brother. They just learned that.

This leaves the girl available for Lux to hook up with, and they're both human, leaving Ahsoka jealous. I like how Anakin told her he understands perfectly, without her even having said anything. He was able to pick up on that.

Interestingly enough, I read somewhere, or here on our boards I think, that Obi-Wan knows about Anakin and Padme (maybe not if they are officially married) but he knows Anakin doesn't spend the nights in his room at the Jedi Temple.

Now I have a taste for stories that are mind-fjks for their audience.

This Onderan resistance is fighting the Separatists. But if I were really crafting the stories, I'd have Palpatine personally maneuver to guide them (or really use Anakin to do it) so that the future-Empire builds its own resistance to continue perpetuating the war so they'll have an excuse to keep raising taxes and stationing trooops everywhere (like how they took over Muunlist in the CW and moved Sandtroopers into Mos Eisley in ANH).

I think it's brilliant the way Palpatine could do this, to use science fiction as the tool it can be to write about scary conspiracies, such as how al-Qaeda might actually be ran by the CIA so that terror strikes like 9-11 can be used to station troops and nation-build where there can be access to crude oil to keep the US economy going and make profits for campaign contributing civilian and military contractors, not to mention grow the military to control the world (or do we need US troops in 60 foreign countries?)

Let's not open a Rancor Pit discussion here. I'm just pointing out where some writers get brilliant and less predictable (for being less conventional) plot ideas and a master-conspirator like Palpatine is setting all this up (and with Dooku it could go either way since a Sith apprentice is supposed to kill a master showing any sign of weakness - thus with his popularity as the Jefferson Davis of the galaxy, his droids and General Lee (Grievous) could take over too (while I reinforce the idea that Dooku was the most dangerous Sith apprentice featured in the movies - except for Palpatine of course as we've now learned he was still Plageuis' apprentice during much of TPM).

Battle Droid
10-15-2012, 03:14 PM
The new droid general is actually a Super Tactical Droid, and his name is Kalani. Since he has a name he must be somewhat important. Maybe Grievous went on vacation and left him in charge of the droid army. lol

Tycho
10-15-2012, 03:22 PM
That's right. Kalami.

His droid brother is an IG model since '88 has that elongated head. He will be named Solami! ;)

DarkJedi5
10-15-2012, 03:25 PM
This Onderan resistance is fighting the Separatists. But if I were really crafting the stories, I'd have Palpatine personally maneuver to guide them (or really use Anakin to do it) so that the future-Empire builds its own resistance to continue perpetuating the war so they'll have an excuse to keep raising taxes and stationing trooops everywhere (like how they took over Muunlist in the CW and moved Sandtroopers into Mos Eisley in ANH).

Isn't that basically one of the plot points in 1984, where the government is perpetually fighting a war for the sole purpose of creating fear amongst their own population in order to ensure they remain obedient? Not saying it's a bad idea, just saying it seems really familiar. Also, the whole idea of Anakin creating insurgent groups that become the basis for the Rebel Alliance also seems like it's been done. Wasn't that supposed to be the big twist in The Force Unleashed, where Vader orders Starkiller to go undercover and infiltrate the fledgling Alliance to smoke out its leaders and then Starkiller goes rogue and essentially becomes a founding member of the Rebellion?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-15-2012, 09:11 PM
"Front Runners" was pretty good, but something about it didn't click for me. I really liked how the city square was much more populated and visually interesting than these types of things once were on this show, and the fact that the rebels used their training from the last episode instead of just sort of ignoring those aspects (as sometimes has happened). I'll have to judge it as part of the four-episode whole, since in and of itself it wasn't too amazing. I am still interested in seeing how this arc plays out, so I guess it set up the next two relatively well.

I'm not really sure why they played up the significance of Steela's "He's my brother" line. Apart from the ROTJ connection, uh, didn't we already know they were siblings? Was it supposed to show Ahsoka that Steela liked Lux, not Saw? It struck me as a bizarre way to end the episode.


Also, the whole idea of Anakin creating insurgent groups that become the basis for the Rebel Alliance also seems like it's been done. Wasn't that supposed to be the big twist in The Force Unleashed, where Vader orders Starkiller to go undercover and infiltrate the fledgling Alliance to smoke out its leaders and then Starkiller goes rogue and essentially becomes a founding member of the Rebellion?
Vader basically has Starkiller round up the Empire's most vocal dissidents and group them together to form the political side of the Rebel Alliance. As I recall - and I haven't played the game since it came out four years ago - Starkiller dies protecting them on the Death Star, and they use his family crest as the Rebel Alliance symbol (though a Jedi with a family crest always struck me as somewhat odd). The little red symbol on some of the Rebels' armor looks a bit like the symbol, so maybe they'll retcon that part. Aside from that, I don't see why this can't be seen as the start of the military side of the alliance, and TFU can be seen as the start of the political side.

El Chuxter
10-15-2012, 09:17 PM
(though a Jedi with a family crest always struck me as somewhat odd)
Wasn't his father a Corellian Jedi? They'd established that Corellians often flouted the Council and got married (though that one novel sorta backtracked and made Neeja Halcyon a lying putz).

So much backtracking on married Jedi. They really, really should've told people in advance about the "no attachments" thing... unless Lucas made it up while writing AOTC, which he did.

DarkJedi5
10-15-2012, 10:52 PM
Aside from that, I don't see why this can't be seen as the start of the military side of the alliance, and TFU can be seen as the start of the political side.

I wasn't saying it wasn't feasible, just that the idea seemed a bit familiar.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-15-2012, 11:01 PM
Wasn't his father a Corellian Jedi? They'd established that Corellians often flouted the Council and got married (though that one novel sorta backtracked and made Neeja Halcyon a lying putz).

So much backtracking on married Jedi. They really, really should've told people in advance about the "no attachments" thing... unless Lucas made it up while writing AOTC, which he did.
Wookieepedia makes no mention of where Kento Marek is from, just that he and his lady friend left the Order and the war to live in peace, which is why he wasn't killed during Order 66.

JediTricks
10-15-2012, 11:27 PM
Yeah, but that was when the Rebel Alliance had almost two decades to grow, and it's right after their "first victory against the evil Galactic Empire," and by that time it was a galaxy-wide rebellion against a galaxy-wide oppressor, not just a conflict on one planet. That was the Rebellion at its full power, or close to it, and this is the Rebellion at its very earliest stages.

Or maybe they didn't have the budget to animate a lot of rebel soldiers, I don't know. :DI think the problem is really a lack of message. They are telling a story that they don't understand, they have the Jedi talking it down and then showing it being little more than the setup's expectations. We're never given a reason to care about the Onderonians or the planet itself, it's just another pawn in the war. As it is, it feels like the writers are doing catch-up learning on what's in the news about rebellions in the middle east and trying to make that palatable to kids, but they're just missing the bigger picture of having to give a care about the fight.


Can't wait to see more of the new droid general in next weeks episode, he looks cool.

I hope Hasbro makes a figure of him, even if it's realistic style.The old timey paint scrollwork seemed really over the top steampunk for me, but maybe they'll pull it off in full visual.



"Front Runners" was pretty good, but something about it didn't click for me. I really liked how the city square was much more populated and visually interesting than these types of things once were on this show, and the fact that the rebels used their training from the last episode instead of just sort of ignoring those aspects (as sometimes has happened). I'll have to judge it as part of the four-episode whole, since in and of itself it wasn't too amazing. I am still interested in seeing how this arc plays out, so I guess it set up the next two relatively well.

I'm not really sure why they played up the significance of Steela's "He's my brother" line. Apart from the ROTJ connection, uh, didn't we already know they were siblings? Was it supposed to show Ahsoka that Steela liked Lux, not Saw? It struck me as a bizarre way to end the episode.I think the problem with Front Runners was that the rebels aren't fighting for the people or for anything worth showing, the people in the city are video game NPCs in the background reacting to what's happening and worth a single line about not honking them off from too much rebel terrorism. The rebels are self-interested and aren't coming off as anything more than smalltime, petty nobodies bickering over little nothings. The Jedi up and leave, taking at best some light remote interest, except for Padawan Tano who is clearly comprised by her feelings... and also she does NOTHING here. And then you have the entirely disconnected king and his prisoner and the aide, which felt like half a paragraph cut off mid-sentence at both ends.

I didn't know Steela and Saw were sibs. You're right that the directing or line read on that "he's my brother" line fell way short of intentions, I didn't see the connection until you pointed it out. I think the idea is that it changes the romantic dynamic that Ahsoka thought she was dealing with.

Tycho
10-16-2012, 03:19 PM
Isn't that basically one of the plot points in 1984, where the government is perpetually fighting a war for the sole purpose of creating fear amongst their own population in order to ensure they remain obedient? Not saying it's a bad idea, just saying it seems really familiar.

Star Wars has always borrowed a lot, from the Kirosawa legacy to Joseph Campbell's heroe's journey. And you have the Zillo Beast (Godzilla), The Magnificent Seven (Embo, Seripas, etc.), plus Captain Jack Sparrow (Hondo Ohnaka in a way...), plus in ROTS, Padme says, "So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause," when Palpatine is elected Emperor, a quote that could be attributed to John Kerry when the Republicans passed the Patriot Act under President Bush.



Also, the whole idea of Anakin creating insurgent groups that become the basis for the Rebel Alliance also seems like it's been done. Wasn't that supposed to be the big twist in The Force Unleashed, where Vader orders Starkiller to go undercover and infiltrate the fledgling Alliance to smoke out its leaders and then Starkiller goes rogue and essentially becomes a founding member of the Rebellion.

Well, it's Star Wars history and real world history. There was a CIA operative given stinger missiles to shoot down Soviet Union helicopters killing the Mujadeen in Afghanistan and another one armed with WMD's to fight the Iranians on his country's borders. Then the United States had to fight these guys (or the CIA was still their boss and there was a conspiracy to organize a fake fight against them to secure more favorable oil interests and maintain employment through the military and Middle East civilian contracts for campaign contributors. The actual names of the CIA operatives were Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and they were hired by the CIA Director George Herbert Walker Bush.

It's pretty easy to rename them Count Dooku and General Grievous, and have them engage "Darth Rumsfeld and Dick Vader."

Science fiction is often a way to talk about the science-factual (real) world and recreate the state of the conflict in make-believe scenerios where hypothetical outcomes can be explored.

Star TREK was designed to be all about that. It is a stretch to go so far with Star Wars, but the Prequel Trilogy is closer to the possibility with more politics in it than the OT which were intended to be more like teenage rebellion films for the action genre. A smaller proportion of the genre audiences was socially smart enough to appreciate Star Trek.

DarkJedi5
10-16-2012, 04:48 PM
Star Wars has always borrowed a lot, from the Kirosawa legacy to Joseph Campbell's heroe's journey. And you have the Zillo Beast (Godzilla), The Magnificent Seven (Embo, Seripas, etc.), plus Captain Jack Sparrow (Hondo Ohnaka in a way...), plus in ROTS, Padme says, "So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause," when Palpatine is elected Emperor, a quote that could be attributed to John Kerry when the Republicans passed the Patriot Act under President Bush.



Well, it's Star Wars history and real world history. There was a CIA operative given stinger missiles to shoot down Soviet Union helicopters killing the Mujadeen in Afghanistan and another one armed with WMD's to fight the Iranians on his country's borders. Then the United States had to fight these guys (or the CIA was still their boss and there was a conspiracy to organize a fake fight against them to secure more favorable oil interests and maintain employment through the military and Middle East civilian contracts for campaign contributors. The actual names of the CIA operatives were Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and they were hired by the CIA Director George Herbert Walker Bush.

It's pretty easy to rename them Count Dooku and General Grievous, and have them engage "Darth Rumsfeld and Dick Vader."

Science fiction is often a way to talk about the science-factual (real) world and recreate the state of the conflict in make-believe scenerios where hypothetical outcomes can be explored.

Star TREK was designed to be all about that. It is a stretch to go so far with Star Wars, but the Prequel Trilogy is closer to the possibility with more politics in it than the OT which were intended to be more like teenage rebellion films for the action genre. A smaller proportion of the genre audiences was socially smart enough to appreciate Star Trek.

Sure, Star Wars has always borrowed from other sources. Nearly every piece of fiction ever created does so either intentionally or unintentionally; there are only so many elements, themes, and components that can be used to tell a story. So far though, when the Clone Wars has done it, it has been done for the sake of paying homage (Zillo Beast, Bounty Hunters, and Cat and Mouse come to mind). My issue is when they try to retell a story Star Wars has already covered. Palpatine is already running both the Republic and Separatist war efforts to strengthen his own position. What's the point of starting up a third side? Okay, maybe he's thinking really long-term. But then why completely destroy the Separatists, why not let a faction of them hang around to be the boogie-man if that's what he needs? Or even just do as Tycho suggests and draw from the real world? Our government has used organized crime for the same purpose on several occasions and we know Star Wars has no shortage of organized crime.

I suppose that's what I thought about the idea of having Anakin unknowingly start the Rebellion. We can divide the issue as JJL suggests into the political side of the movement and the military side of the movement but for me, the twist looses its punch since I thought I'd already seen it. Sure, there are lots of people out there watching CW who did not have any exposure to TFU and so for them, it's probably a great idea. It just doesn't have very much impact for me.

Tycho's last point is undeniable; sci-fi has always been a place were story tellers can say things that would have been impossible if not for a thin veil of fantasy. However, I think the target audience is a critical factor for something like CW. Remember, this show is a ratings smash for that young audience and that's clearly where their bread and butter is. Sure, I've read all the articles citing how it's not just a kid's show but I think that when the plot lines get mired down in political intrigue it looses some of the fun. I think part of the success of the OT was that it was trying to be like a Saturday morning serial while the PT got bogged down in subterfuge.

P.S. Tycho, if you haven't read the Blowback trilogy by Chalmers Johnson I believe it would be right up your alley. Essentially it tries to explain the repercussions the US' Cold War era policies have had on shaping the modern world.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-16-2012, 07:52 PM
Palpatine is already running both the Republic and Separatist war efforts to strengthen his own position. What's the point of starting up a third side? Okay, maybe he's thinking really long-term. But then why completely destroy the Separatists, why not let a faction of them hang around to be the boogie-man if that's what he needs? Or even just do as Tycho suggests and draw from the real world? Our government has used organized crime for the same purpose on several occasions and we know Star Wars has no shortage of organized crime.
Palpatine seems to have nothing to do with the Onderon conflict - that's strictly a Jedi mission, even though their goal is to fight the Separatists on two fronts, and the end of the Separatist movement is what the Republic (supposedly) wants. Palpatine's "third side" could be considered to be the criminal underworld, since when it flourishes, he wins no matter what - if the Jedi are dispatched to deal with the growing crime, then they could be killed in the conflicts or spread too thin for the war effort; if they are separated from it and remain in battle, which is his public goal for them as stated at the end of "Revival," then the crime causes unrest and it looks like the Republic and Jedi are too feeble or too unwilling to do anything about it, thus creating a public desire for a stronger government . . . perhaps like an Empire. Palpatine probably wouldn't even consider these "pitiful little band"s to be of any significance anyway, which is ultimately what brings down his Empire. I'm interested in seeing how he reacts to this - I sort of remember hearing him speak about Steela in a trailer, though I could be wrong.

Bel-Cam Jos
10-20-2012, 10:53 PM
Pleasantly surpised at this newest one; all the cliches I thought would come true, didn't really. I figured Ahsoka would've interfered, one of the main rebels killed, or the replacement king killed.

Tycho
10-21-2012, 03:51 AM
The Star Wars Clone Wars cartoon was really good this morning. what the writers have essentually done is written the story of the Iranian Revolution from the Iranian point of view. the United States was in the wrong and deposed the traditional dictator for a another (the Shah) that was friendly to Western oil interests. the people revolted against the puppet secular leader in favor of a Muslim fundamentalist. the current movie Argo is about that.

in Star Wars they just copied the situation and set the story on another planet but changed the point of view to that of the revolutionaries. kids see it as a Saturday morning cartoon and that's fun but I also enjoy a deeper level to all of this, and I know writers who were adults came up with the story line and had to have a source of inspiration for their idea. that's where the creativity came in. and lightsabers and laser guns make it a lot of fun!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-21-2012, 04:09 PM
I liked this episode much more than "Front Runners." It advanced the story along well and set it up for the final episode, which looks like good fun from the Season Five trailer (with the introduction of the Droid Gunships and help from an unexpected ally). I liked the General Tandin character - I can't remember who he reminds me of, though, but the alliance of the rebels with his army beefs up the cause considerably. Some of the new tech, like the one-way shield and the electroguillotine, was pretty slick.

Oh, and that was one seriously ugly Twi'lek child in the opening scene. :p

In other news, Cartoon Network (http://blog.cartoonnetwork.com/2012/10/17/first-look-yoda-schools-younglings-in-the-gathering/) has images from the upcoming episode "The Gathering," which is clearly part of the young Jedi Knights (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php/46287-Young-Jedi-Knights) arc that was previewed at CVI. So it looks like this won't be its own series after all - at least for now. This arc will help fill in more of the gaps before "Revival," since it should portray Grievous destroying Hondo's compound, as described in that episode. And it looks like Wookiee Jedi are back in the canon again!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-27-2012, 10:03 PM
"Tipping Points" was pretty great - definitely the best episode of the arc and a fitting conclusion to the story. The introduction of the Droid Gunships helped make the Separatists more of a credible threat than they are often shown, and I liked the effect of their ray shields and explosions. Hondo was the earlier, jewelry-free model, and we'll get to see his base get destroyed by Grievous at some point in the next arc, which is the Young Jedi Knights series (moved up to come before the Rush Clovis story). The facial animation was really great and seemed a step above the last few episodes - maybe different studios worked on them, as is sometimes the case. But it really helped to sell the characters' "acting," especially in the scene on Coruscant between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Spoilers ahead . . .

I though they could have had Ahsoka attempt to save Steela earlier than she did, but Steela's death was still quite effective and sad. They didn't really play up her jealousy, as that could have been shown as the reason she saved Lux instead of Steela, but Ahsoka seemed fine with Lux having feelings for Steela, as she learned that purpose must come before feelings and seemed to follow through with that message. Kalani shooting Sanjay Rash was pretty unexpected and interesting, too.

Bel-Cam Jos
10-27-2012, 10:15 PM
I can't say I was surprised by any of the events of the episode, but I felt they were done effectively, and with strong emotions. Some SW references within SW: a quick "for luck"-type kiss, and something-I'm-forgetting-now when they mount the flying creatures (a total ripoff of Avatar, BTW :rolleyes: ). I also thought of Battlestar Galactica when the droid circular ship said "by your command" and flew away. I liked the episode, too.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-28-2012, 02:40 PM
I can't say I was surprised by any of the events of the episode, but I felt they were done effectively, and with strong emotions. Some SW references within SW: a quick "for luck"-type kiss, and something-I'm-forgetting-now when they mount the flying creatures (a total ripoff of Avatar, BTW :rolleyes: ). I also thought of Battlestar Galactica when the droid circular ship said "by your command" and flew away. I liked the episode, too.
The quote was Lux saying "What good will that do her if she gets herself killed?" At the TCW panel at CVI, Lucas mentioned that the battle was their homage to Avatar, and said something like "it's just as good as Avatar for 1/1000th the price." :p

Oh, and this episode had some nice funny little moments as well - the fambaa sitting on the battle droid at the beginning was goofy (but played well), and Hondo's remarks to Steela had me laughing. This episode was a good mix of emotion, action, and occasional humor, making it feel truly like Star Wars in tone.

I was also struck by the giant crowd scene at the end - they never would have been able to do something like that before, so it's always good to see how they're able to push the show forward visually.

Tycho
10-29-2012, 02:34 AM
People mostly covered the comments I'd make, but I really liked the episode as well.

More on that: the Droid Gunships were cool, and I've always been a fan of Hondo Ohnaka's since his introduction when he captures a Sith Lord - that played out as pretty funny (in Season One).

Tycho
10-29-2012, 02:41 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention Hondo now using a luxury space yacht craft like Lando Calrissian's Lady Luck in the expanded universe is a fun touch.

Or maybe that somehow IS the Lady Luck? But one of Lando's first ships was the Millennium Falcon (I think it was his first ship but I can't remember. I have to read the Young Lando Adventures and Hutt Gambit (Han Solo trilogy) again. Plus Lando would be only about 10 years old when these events are going on. (Han Solo is 2 years younger if my facts are correct).

Ages in ANH:

Han: 29
Luke / Leia: 19
Lando: 31
Chewie: 200
Darth Vader (Anakin): 41
Obi-Wan: 56
Yoda: 896

I'm not sure about Palpatine

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-29-2012, 11:28 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention Hondo now using a luxury space yacht craft like Lando Calrissian's Lady Luck in the expanded universe is a fun touch.

Or maybe that somehow IS the Lady Luck? But one of Lando's first ships was the Millennium Falcon (I think it was his first ship but I can't remember. I have to read the Young Lando Adventures and Hutt Gambit (Han Solo trilogy) again. Plus Lando would be only about 10 years old when these events are going on. (Han Solo is 2 years younger if my facts are correct).

Ages in ANH:

Han: 29
Luke / Leia: 19
Lando: 31
Chewie: 200
Darth Vader (Anakin): 41
Obi-Wan: 56
Yoda: 896

I'm not sure about Palpatine
Hondo's ship is called Fortune and Glory, which is an Indiana Jones reference. It's supposed to be the same class as the Lady Luck, similar to a ship used by Cad Bane, Moralo Eval, and Obi-Wan (in disguise as Rako Hardeen) last season.

Anakin turns 10 at the end of TPM, meaning he is 20 in AOTC, 23 in ROTS, and 42 in ANH. Obi-Wan is 25 in TPM, so he is 35 in AOTC, 38 in ROTS, and 57 in ANH. Palpatine is 50 in TPM, 60 in AOTC, 63 in ROTS, 82 at the time of ANH, 85 in ESB, and 86 in ROTJ. You're right on the other ages.

Tycho
10-29-2012, 12:11 PM
Thanks JabbaJohn.

Technically, 1 year off is pretty good - especially with Anakin since he actually is 9 years old during part of TPM.

But with regards to two other important characters, Han and Lando, being that they are now feasibly around 10 years old during the Clone Wars (the same age as some young Clones), maybe there's a way for them to appear?

I still like my idea of:

1) the Jango DNA is over-used and dilluted
2) they find a new source for the DNA during the Clone Wars, and it is the "father" of Han Solo.
3) the Jango clones resent the "replacements" and you see some of that (and it sets up Boba Fett's dislike for Han).
4) during the fighting, the kids accelerated 5 years but looking 10, have to fight to survive, and young Han is separated from his squad
5) THEN IN ACCORDANCE TO AC CRISPIN'S "Han Solo Trilogy," young Han is found on the streets of Corellia by Shrike
6) Han's bred to yearn for a soldier's life, so he does all he can to achieve his dream of becoming an Imperial officer
7) of course, he's court-martialed and kicked out for saving Chewie ("The Hutt Gambit" novel)

The rest we know.

But it fits with all the EU and the capabilities Han Solo shows in the OT.

JediTricks
11-02-2012, 05:58 PM
Ahsoka gets shot in the back by a spaceship so hard that it singes the front of her body, and yet she's essentially FINE a few moments later?!? That was asking too much, I felt.


I was also struck by the giant crowd scene at the end - they never would have been able to do something like that before, so it's always good to see how they're able to push the show forward visually.The long shot of that crowd was horrible though, red yellow green red yellow green red yellow green, something like that, the same layout of the irregularity of their positioning, it was too many repeating patterns at once ant it stuck out for me. It also makes me wonder why Lucas didn't take some of the ILM crowd software and have it implemented the animation studio doing this.

JediTricks
11-02-2012, 06:03 PM
I'm looking at a few images from tomorrow morning's episode, and it appears there will be a little Wookiee as one of the Jedi younglings hunting their lightsaber crystals. I wasn't going to use that image in the article because it's too stark, but I'll attach it here
26732
and closeup:
26733

I guess Lucas has changed his tune on that issue finally.


The article is posted (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/content.php/1203-New-Clone-Wars-An-Ancient-Rite-Of-Passage-For-All-Jedi-Building-Sabers), taken from the Lucasfilm press release, and the trivia is interesting, especially these:

The notion of lightsabers being powered by mystical crystals find their roots in the “Kyber crystal” concept in the early draft scripts of Star Wars, a mystical gem said to amplify the power of the Force.
The crystals are colorless until the young Jedi holds it, upon which it becomes attuned to the Force-user. This appears to be what governs the colors of Jedi lightsabers.The latter one is what I've always felt was appropriate, the nature of the Force within the user dictates the color of the blade, hence the green of Luke's ROTJ saber signifies his darker tendencies, and as such Qui-Gon's saber is also green as he's a rogue from the Jedi beliefs (I would have liked to have seen more of Qui-Gon going outside the light side to get his goals, not full Dark Side stuff but definitely more gray). Anakin being a good man before Vader killed him though works only on paper, not the prequel characters we saw scowling and doing naughty things all the way back to Jake Lloyd.

As for the gems amplifying the Force, does that mean lightsabers are Force powered, or merely Force-tuned weapons based on that universe's science? Han used a saber so obviously they're not powered by the user himself, so it'd be the entirety of the Force around.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-02-2012, 07:07 PM
I'm looking at a few images from tomorrow morning's episode, and it appears there will be a little Wookiee as one of the Jedi younglings hunting their lightsaber crystals.
Huh, too bad nobody already pointed that out at the top of the page. :p This show has had Jedi of all different species even including Gungans (or at least a Force-sensitive infant), so I'm glad that Wookiees are allowed to be Jedi again.

I'm looking forward to this arc, and I'm sure they'll address some of your points, JT. I'm sure we'll also get some whiners complaining that Ilum looks different now than it did in the micro-series. :D

Tycho
11-05-2012, 12:19 AM
I loved the new episode.

The only thing different about Illum really - was that the younglings didn't have visions like Anakin did when he was a kid when Obi-Wan took him there.

The "hauntings" of the caves showed Anakin "Darth Vader" in a manner of speaking - but he refused to speak of it to Obi-Wan.

Meanwhile, the room with all the crystals was very much like where Luminara took Barriss. The other younglings, except for the Rodian girl, did not go into that part of the temple.

Maybe it was destroyed by Count Dooku's droids, but that doesn't mean the Jedi didn't rebuild it and make it better. Or even in a different location Dooku didn't know about.

He would have only gone when he built his first saber, and when training Qui-Gon or any other padawan he also may have had. And based on at least one story, Qui-Gon didn't find him to be a very involved or interested master (which explains Qui-Gon's personality).

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-05-2012, 01:09 AM
I really liked this one a lot as well. The cave, and the fact that the younglings each had different visions and trials inside, reminded me of both Luke on Dagobah and Indiana Jones going to find the holy grail - there was an unknowable magical element to the quest. The kids were distinct, interesting, and even though the episode mainly focused on one character trait each, they seemed like actual kids (unlike, say, the junior detectives from "Corruption"). Ilum was absolutely beautiful in HD, and I'm glad that the designers mixed up the locations from what we've seen before. Seeing the younglings at the temple, and especially seeing Plo Koon finding Ahsoka as an infant, were great touches as well.

It was interesting to hear Yoda refer to the Jedi as "the Force made physical," as I like when this show is able to break from the battles and show the Jedi in their more mystical, rightful place - which seemed to be the concern of most of this episode, and it pulled it off very well.

I think the best part was the fact that they seemed to have used Lumpy's sound effects from the Holiday Special and incorporated them into Gungi's vocalizations. :p

Tycho
11-05-2012, 03:23 AM
I like jabbaJohnL's post - both of them, but the 2nd one sounded like he was making the same points all over again ;)

I'd forgotten some of the things that you (JabbaJohn) posted, like the infant Ahsoka, as I'd focused on the Jedi children's trials and found that most memorable.

One thing I didn't see was the younglings using the Force to help them.

Maybe some of them weren't great at telekenisis, but couldn't the Wookiee use the Force to move all the ice blocks together?

Could the girl of Adi Gallia's background *** use the Force to retreive her crystal instead of climbing all the way up that rocky slope?

*** Adi Gallia's original bio was she was Corellian. Her parents were abassadors from Corellia and she was one of the few Jedi who knew her birth parents and even worked with them before - early Malestare negotiations I think. That's why Adi went on the mission in the comic books some years later.

The thing with the jellyfish tentacles (it is some kind of creature - or was) was awarded to her for some kind of great service she did for some species that wore those. Maybe Stass Allie was her cousin and went on that mission too - and that's why she got one - but the youngling? Really? I suppose it made her more artistically interesting for a human girl who'd ordinarily just look like Sasha Obama without a cool jellyfish hat - but it's not part of their physiology since they're human. Or maybe only Adi Gallia and Stass Allie were human Corellians, and the youngling was not?

Or something got retconned again.

Anyway, eventually we saw the Jedi younglings using the Force to retrieve their crystals, so I guess that was part of the lessons being learned. But it would have been very impressive if they'd learned that lesson earlier, and better - and especially if the Wookiee youngling used the Force to link the ice!

Bel-Cam Jos
11-06-2012, 07:24 PM
I was wondering if any of them would've been stuck inside, or died out of greed for their crystal. Did that happen? I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. Somehow I expected the cystals to be larger in size.

JediTricks
11-09-2012, 06:53 PM
So, I'm not trying to stir up controversy, and I didn't even want to post my opinions on this at all, but I can't hold my tongue any longer.

Last week's episode was dumb, it was generic, predictable kiddie fare set in the Star Wars universe with one-dimensional writing that missed opportunities like having Ahsoka actually interact with Yoda (or either of them do anything wise, aside from Yoda's zen response to how Jeff from American Dad broke the rules the right way), or officially charting a true path of a youngling, or having to deal with a youngling actually fail. Instead we get what could have been a browser-based pre-teen video game for how flatly it was written, it was a rehash of the Dagobah cave except minus any nuance, and magically the drab ice cave just happens to know exactly what each kid's character flaw is - a character flaw that SOLELY DEFINES each youngling, I might add. And having Plo Koon nab Ahsoka at the beginning flashback coupled with the voice over was creepy - "that they are your true family now" - it all looked like a cult that deserves to be hunted down by the Empire, there was no thought put into that at all. Nothing about these younglings suggested that they had passed any trials, that they were wizards in training, that they had any wisdom to go forward at all except that they solved a single simple task each by overcoming rather generic character flaws - they didn't come off as special whatsoever. And if this is the only place in the universe to find these crystals, why don't the Jedi just post guards so the Sith don't show up and take theirs?

The only reason I didn't outright hate this episode is that it didn't really have a significant impact, it didn't reach as high so it didn't have as far to fall, it wasn't horrible, it was just dull fluff - nobody gets riled up about couch stuffing.



I was wondering if any of them would've been stuck inside, or died out of greed for their crystal. Did that happen? I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. Somehow I expected the cystals to be larger in size.All excellent points, and I also expected the crystals to be about 25% bigger.



Huh, too bad nobody already pointed that out at the top of the page. :p This show has had Jedi of all different species even including Gungans (or at least a Force-sensitive infant), so I'm glad that Wookiees are allowed to be Jedi again.

I'm looking forward to this arc, and I'm sure they'll address some of your points, JT. I'm sure we'll also get some whiners complaining that Ilum looks different now than it did in the micro-series. :DYeah, like you read every one of MY posts. :p Ok, I actually didn't see it because I was in mourning, my grandfather having just passed away, but that's the bummer answer.

Battle Droid
11-10-2012, 10:52 AM
I hated The Gathering, A Test of Strength was better.

Tycho
11-10-2012, 01:26 PM
Hondo's back! He's a great character - has a pretty greedy, bad side to him that clearly showed today, too.

Our kid with Dark Side tendancies was quite resourceful with his lightsaber though.

I wonder if Hondo will try and sell Ahsoka to the slave market or to Count Dooku? I am suspecting the latter. But if he goes to Jabba, we can see facetime with the Sailbarge [marketing help for Hasbro?]

Yes, perhaps a big battle with Anakin taking a Jedi starfighter and Republic Gunships down on the Sailbarge to rescue his padawan?

That's right. I didn't watch "scenes from next week..." Hold on. I saved the recording. Be right back...

Hmmm. They didn't show anything about next week during or after the credits. Obviously the story will continue though.

I like the Wookiee Jedi by the way. His tooth that sticks out is like Rawlwraa's.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-10-2012, 07:02 PM
I also liked this one better than last week's. The twist at the end as they were escaping from the pirates' ship wasn't far-fetched at all, but I still didn't expect it. The younglings worked well as a team and as individuals. Hondo is a good villain; flawed but effective in his schemes.

Mad Slanted Powers
11-12-2012, 02:24 AM
I didn't realize that was David Tennant as the droid until I just noticed the story on this site. I'll have to pay attention to his voice in the next episode. The scene where he was trying to figure out what the Wookiee's lightsaber should be reminded me of when Harry Potter got his wand.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-12-2012, 10:59 AM
I thought the lightsaber selection was EXACTLY like the HP scene. Lots of ANH imagery and references, too: inner corridors of the ship looked just like the Falcon, especially when the younglings trained with remotes; lone Jedi holds off attacking villain(s) to allow comrades to escape; docking with a captured ship, then exploding the hatch to burst inside; ordering a hatch opening via comlink.

I also had fun trying to find recognizable saber hilts in the droid's hologram (saw ROJ Luke, ROTS/ANH Vader/Luke clearly).

JediTricks
11-12-2012, 03:21 PM
I hated The Gathering, A Test of Strength was better.


I also liked this one better than last week's. The twist at the end as they were escaping from the pirates' ship wasn't far-fetched at all, but I still didn't expect it. The younglings worked well as a team and as individuals. Hondo is a good villain; flawed but effective in his schemes.I am with you guys, this was a WAY better episode than The Gathering.


I didn't realize that was David Tennant as the droid until I just noticed the story on this site. I'll have to pay attention to his voice in the next episode. The scene where he was trying to figure out what the Wookiee's lightsaber should be reminded me of when Harry Potter got his wand.I put up the article in advance about it being him so I couldn't help but notice that it was the 10th Doctor. That said, Tennant was BRILLIANT, he was on a whole other level from the rest of the series, he was wise and funny and whimsical and strong and magical and a DROID! His performance as Huyang (what an odd name for a droid) blew me away, that was a cinema-quality performance; the only drawback about his performance is that it made all the Jedi kids and Ahsoka's voice work seem amateurish by comparison (although the Hondo voice work and some of the pirates was better than usual). It did have a bit of the Harry Potter scene to it though, I hadn't made that connection but you're totally right.


I thought the lightsaber selection was EXACTLY like the HP scene. Lots of ANH imagery and references, too: inner corridors of the ship looked just like the Falcon, especially when the younglings trained with remotes; lone Jedi holds off attacking villain(s) to allow comrades to escape; docking with a captured ship, then exploding the hatch to burst inside; ordering a hatch opening via comlink.

I also had fun trying to find recognizable saber hilts in the droid's hologram (saw ROJ Luke, ROTS/ANH Vader/Luke clearly).Yeah, tons of ANH imagery, my favorite would be the burning of the hatch. This episode looked amazing, the quality of the visuals was kicked way up for this one (except Hondo's new skin which is still WAY too flat for the paint they gave it), the shots of the ships in space looked so much better and more dramatic even just sitting there than TCW has ever achieved in the past. This episode was much more cinematic in quality... except for the kiddies and Ahsoka, where the writing just left them to a bunch of Home Alone-type antics. That said, Ahsoka did space someone, which I think is the first time we've seen anyone overtly do that in Star Wars (the TIE Pilot in ESB that got hit by an asteroid was spaced assuming he wasn't fried or smashed first, but he's only visible for a second), so there was some serious stuff too. Oh, and the pirates were more varied and menacing (that fat one looked like he was wearing a bib, that was an odd armor design), but that also left me with more issues with the kids not really being written to the same level. Petro's gag was clever especially when they set him up to seem like yet again he'd be the bad seed - maybe he's the Qui-Gon of the bunch - but generally once again these didn't feel like Jedi children, they felt like children pretending to be Jedi.

So, why aren't there any acolytes on the ship doing the basics? Why is is being piloted by R2 and nobody else? Where did Yoda go, did he just stay on Ilum? How are the kids supposed to feel the Force guide the building of their sabers yet also follow the diagram? Why did they have Hondo planning to sell Ahsoka as a slave sound a bit rapey about it?

Obi-Wan's saber is what you saw in the saber hologram, not Luke's. You can tell it's Obi-Wan's by the cuts in the upper grip and by the disc belt-attachment. I thought it was funny that Kit Fisto's generic saber was there, there was even one on the ship, it's the hilt Hasbro included with a ton of figures between 2002 and 2008 or so.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-12-2012, 04:49 PM
I really liked this episode's sense of history, especially surrounding Huyang (and his listing of previously-unmentioned materials and battles) and the ship (which had Old Republic symbols). The lightsaber selection process really did remind me a lot of Harry Potter, but in a good way - I like that they're making the lightsaber construction process individualized to the Jedi so it's not just something they can pick up off a shelf. And even though I haven't seen any Doctor Who, David Tennant was indeed great as Huyang. Hopefully he'll be put back together for next week's episode.


So, why aren't there any acolytes on the ship doing the basics? Why is is being piloted by R2 and nobody else? Where did Yoda go, did he just stay on Ilum? How are the kids supposed to feel the Force guide the building of their sabers yet also follow the diagram? Why did they have Hondo planning to sell Ahsoka as a slave sound a bit rapey about it?
Yoda was already on Ilum when they got there, so I assume he has another ride. The kids probably need the diagram for the basics, like issues with the circuitry, but the specifics are up to them and what they feel in the Force.

The Hondo-Ahsoka moment at the end was weird, I agree - it would have been less creepy without him caressing her lip. I keep trying to remember where everything takes place in the timeline. I guess it's not that difficult - Anakin goes to Florrum to have Hondo run guns to Onderon, then Hondo captures Ahsoka here, and then later Obi-Wan works with him to fight Maul and Opress. It's interesting to see Hondo switching sides so often, showing that he really is in it only for the money.

Tycho
11-13-2012, 12:37 PM
I took it that Ahsoka's people are routinely taken to be slaves, including sex slaves, like the Twi'leks.

Hondo knows he could sell Ahsoka, though she'd never be able to be kept as a slave. Hondo doesn't care about that. He just wants the money. Like Hasbro still gets paid even if it breaks after you buy it. By that reasoning, Ahsoka just has to sell.

But I love Hondo! Great character.

In CW, amongst the new villains, I think Cad Bane outshown him in early popularity, but Hondo is a richer, more complex character. Bane's never helped the Jedi or allied himself with someone he hasn't probaby planned to betray. He seems personally angry with the Jedi. Contrast that with Hondo, and he'll work with the Jedi as we've seen a few times now.

JediTricks
11-14-2012, 02:46 PM
I really liked this episode's sense of history, especially surrounding Huyang (and his listing of previously-unmentioned materials and battles) and the ship (which had Old Republic symbols). The lightsaber selection process really did remind me a lot of Harry Potter, but in a good way - I like that they're making the lightsaber construction process individualized to the Jedi so it's not just something they can pick up off a shelf. And even though I haven't seen any Doctor Who, David Tennant was indeed great as Huyang. Hopefully he'll be put back together for next week's episode.The press release for last week's episode said Tennant would be voicing Huyang for all 3 episodes remaining in the arc.



Yoda was already on Ilum when they got there, so I assume he has another ride. The kids probably need the diagram for the basics, like issues with the circuitry, but the specifics are up to them and what they feel in the Force.I figured Yoda just hobbled off the ship first and hustled over while Ahsoka was giving the kiddies a pep talk. How wasteful of Yoda to fly there on his own.


The Hondo-Ahsoka moment at the end was weird, I agree - it would have been less creepy without him caressing her lip. I keep trying to remember where everything takes place in the timeline. I guess it's not that difficult - Anakin goes to Florrum to have Hondo run guns to Onderon, then Hondo captures Ahsoka here, and then later Obi-Wan works with him to fight Maul and Opress. It's interesting to see Hondo switching sides so often, showing that he really is in it only for the money.Ugh, no more timeline bending! So frustrating! I didn't know about that.

Battle Droid
11-15-2012, 10:01 AM
Preview of this week's episode Bound for Rescue, it looks pretty awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Nrul2fsQdro

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-15-2012, 12:32 PM
Ugh, no more timeline bending! So frustrating! I didn't know about that.
Yup. It's not as crazy as it has been in the past, but the end of Season Four and beginning of Season Five go like this, from what I understand:

Darth Maul returns
- "Nightsisters"
- "Bounty"
- "Brothers" (the Darth Maul Returns DVD has "Brothers" taking place concurrently with "Nightsisters" and "Bounty")
- "Revenge"
Onderon rebellion
- "A War on Two Fronts"
- "Front Runners"
- "The Soft War"
- "Tipping Points"
Rush Clovis arc - not yet aired
- "An Old Friend"
- "The Rise of Clovis"
- "Crisis of the Heart"
Young Jedi
- "The Gathering"
- "A Test of Strength"
- "Bound for Rescue"
- "A Necessary Bond"
Darth Maul recruits pirates
- "Revival"
Astromech droid/Republic Commando arc - not yet aired
- "Secret Weapons"
- "A Sunny Day in the Void"
- "Missing in Action"
- "Point of No Return"
Darth Maul works with criminal underworld - not yet aired
- "Eminence"
- "Shades of Reason"
- "The Lawless"

The Rush Clovis episodes were produced and originally meant to air before the young Jedi arc. In the young Jedi arc, Hondo's base will be destroyed by Grievous, resulting in the mess it was in during "Revival." There's a young reader book coming out in January that adapts "Revival" and the three upcoming Darth Maul episodes, so it's possible that the astromech droid arc takes place either before or after the entirety of the Maul episodes. I guess we'll have to see.

Oh, and this week's episode does look awesome - but it's also apparently the only appearance of Grievous this season, which is too bad. I guess that's bound to happen when you keep introducing new villains all the time. :p

Tycho
11-15-2012, 02:37 PM
With regards to new villains and recurring movie characters...

PT main characters are Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme - and Padme could use a little focus this season.

With CW, they brought in Ahsoka because the writers wanted to have a leading lady with Force powers. Barriss wasn't as useful since they wanted to keep the focus on Anakin and he wouldn't be training Luminara's apprentice. I'm not even sure if she's not Knighted now? The CW made her younger than I thought she was so she and Ahsoka could be peers.

As to villains - you're right. Grievous needs to have a "check-in." Now I've loved Cad Bane and especially Hondo Ohnaka.

How about bringing Bossk back in for a job? Are he and Boba Fett in prison now? Where's Aurra Sing? (Ventress was used very well and just enough).

How about show some movie characters in villainous plots: Senator Tiikes? Rogwa Woodrata, Shu Mai, Passal Argente?

And Sailbarge toy petitioners know that seeing Jabba again might only help the petition cause.

They also could bring to life some of Dooku's other Dark Jedi that were in the comics - like the figure Hasbro made from the 2-pack with Ventress - the other blonde dude that Obi-Wan and Quinlan Vos challenged.

Not sure exactly when Quinlan disposed of him - and speaking of which...

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-15-2012, 06:24 PM
With CW, they brought in Ahsoka because the writers wanted to have a leading lady with Force powers. Barriss wasn't as useful since they wanted to keep the focus on Anakin and he wouldn't be training Luminara's apprentice. I'm not even sure if she's not Knighted now? The CW made her younger than I thought she was so she and Ahsoka could be peers.

As to villains - you're right. Grievous needs to have a "check-in." Now I've loved Cad Bane and especially Hondo Ohnaka.

How about bringing Bossk back in for a job? Are he and Boba Fett in prison now? Where's Aurra Sing? (Ventress was used very well and just enough).

How about show some movie characters in villainous plots: Senator Tiikes? Rogwa Woodrata, Shu Mai, Passal Argente?
Barriss hasn't been on in a while, so she could have been knighted by this point. She was briefly seen flying in her Jedi Starfighter during the Citadel arc in Season Three, but hasn't been seen since then.

Boba and Bossk are free - they escaped during the Season Four Cad Bane arc and worked with Ventress in "Bounty." Boba was tied up and given to Belugan leader Otua Blanc instead of the bride he wanted, but Bossk was fine. I assume they are going about their bounty hunter business, based on Tatooine.

Confusingly, it seems that Aurra's first appearance is chronologically her most recent - from Season One's finale, "Hostage Crisis." (The Season Two Boba Fett vs. Mace Windu arc takes place before the Season Three Alderaan episode, which reveals that Ziro is still in jail, and he is freed in Season One's "Hostage Crisis.") So she seems to be free as well - she was incarcerated after trying to kill Padmé on Alderaan and was freed by the Hutts offscreen so she could help free Ziro and bring him to Nal Hutta to answer for the kidnapping of Rotta.

Tikkes was designed and planned to be in the Season Four Mon Cala arc but was removed since there were already several similar characters so he was dropped. For whatever reason there seems to be a very small movement to get him into the show, so I bet he will show up at some point.

On that note, Nute Gunray is still free but hasn't shown up since Season One, and Wat Tambor is still in prison.

Tycho
11-15-2012, 09:26 PM
And we have San Hill - who was imprisoned during the Gennedy series when Anakin was still a padawan and the Republic took control over Muunlist from Durge and the IG Lancer Droids.

If that still counts.

Separatists:

Nute - at large (Trade Federation)
San Hill - ?? (Inter-Galactic Banking Clan)
Poggle the Lesser - ?? (Baktoid Armor)
Passal Argente - ?? (Corporate Alliance)
Shu Mai - ?? (she might be interesting to deal with if they draw her well) (Commerce Guild)
Po Nudo - ?? - would be very interesting!! and maybe we'd see Ponda Baba and a young Evazan on Ando?
Tiikes - Mon Calamari (Quarren government representative to the Senate)
Rogwa Woodrata - not sure, but this is the creature we used to mistake for that other big Separatist alien

Wat Tambor - we have to see him freed before ROTS - good job for young Boba? I know Cad Bane could handle it. Maybe introduce IG-88? (Techno-Union at any rate).

Donald Trump - whoops. Wrong thread. My mistake...

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-16-2012, 01:50 PM
I forgot that Poggle is also still in custody after the Season Two Geonosis arc. San Hill hasn't appeared yet, so it's unknown what his status is.

Leland Chee said this on one of his Chronicling The Clone Wars blogs (http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/index.php/2012/10/26/chronicling-the-clone-wars%C2%A0-4/):

Nute Gunray’s escape while en route paves the way for his appearance in future episodes in the series and in Revenge of the Sith. Other Separatist leaders who get captured during the series only to later appear in Revenge of Sith won’t fare as well, spending much of the time span of the series in incarceration.
So hopefully their fates will be resolved in the series.

Tycho
11-17-2012, 01:35 AM
I think we should have an episode where Anakin waterboards Poggle the Lesser ;)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-18-2012, 02:24 PM
"Bound for Rescue" wasn't the most amazing episode, but it was fun. The carnival was very strange - why would Preigo go back there if his last show went so disastrously? - but I liked the bizarre designs. I was also glad that they finally followed up on Season One's Hondo arc, with Dooku still holding a grudge about being captured (which it seems will finally come to a head next week). And despite what I read, Grievous will indeed be back next week, thankfully. It was good to see him get the upper hand - or at least slightly - on Obi-Wan for a change, and having him kill a few clones along the way.

Tycho
11-18-2012, 03:39 PM
why was the new show broadcast on a Sunday? I have it recorded it but haven't watched it yet

Battle Droid
11-18-2012, 04:28 PM
It re-airs on Sunday.

Tycho
11-18-2012, 04:46 PM
For whatever reason I did not see it nor record it yesterday.

Tycho
11-18-2012, 08:19 PM
I watched it now and I loved this episode.

It was very creative and I liked seeing the Z-95's and the mini-arc going on with Obi-Wan, Cody, and General Grievous.

In the meanwhile, Hondo was awesome as usual. I really think they should make a class 2 vehicle out of his tank (besides a small flying saucer 1-man fighter ship - Rapier-One)

Ashley Eckstein didn't do too good of job making the little Rodian girl's voice sound far apart enough from Ahsoka's. I'd almost think it would've been cool if an electronic translation device was employed so she'd speak in Rodian but it would sound like mechanical "Basic," but then all Jedi would speak Basic anyway. But I'm friends with Ashley, so I'll take responsibility for my opinion. I love her and Ahsoka anyway!

Loved the Wookiee Jedi. He's been so cute! I hope he's rescued from Order 66 to go to Platt's Well or be skirted away by K'Kruhk.

Don't want the Wookiee killed. If Mr. Arro-Gant (jk) Jedi youngling does NOT turn to the Dark Side, it would be a pleasant surprise, but a way for the show to not be predictable. As it stands, I am just waiting for him to make a hot-headed choice with serious consequences that takes him down a dark path.

The ship the younglings are on is very similar to the original concept for the Falcon, which was then decided to be the Blockade Runner, and then the Blockade Runner was modified some more to be the ship we see in the movies (all on the part of Ralph McQuarrie I think, who often changed his Star Wars designs). I'm not sure if McQuarrie did the final version of the Falcon, but it was inspired by a hamburger on a plate with an olive leaning against it.

"She may not look like much Kid, but she's got that special sauce where it counts."

Darth Metalmute
11-18-2012, 10:15 PM
I don't like the path they took with Hondo in the past two episodes. I realize he's a bounty hunter and profit is the first priority, but he had to know that attacking Askoka will have future ramifications. I enjoyed the relationship he had with the Jedi, but it seems like that relationship is ruined just to showcase a few bratty younglings.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-19-2012, 10:29 AM
I would echo the previous comments; a pretty good episode. This was cutesy for kids, but not in a negative way. I got some A Bug's Life hints with the traveling show. Was surprised that the nasily youngling's incomplete lightsaber didn't become a plot point. And Grievous was surprised that Obi-Wan would scuttle the battleship? Really?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-19-2012, 12:25 PM
Ashley Eckstein didn't do too good of job making the little Rodian girl's voice sound far apart enough from Ahsoka's. I'd almost think it would've been cool if an electronic translation device was employed so she'd speak in Rodian but it would sound like mechanical "Basic," but then all Jedi would speak Basic anyway. But I'm friends with Ashley, so I'll take responsibility for my opinion. I love her and Ahsoka anyway!
Georgina Cordova plays Ganodi, not Ashley Eckstein.

Battle Droid
11-20-2012, 06:26 PM
New Preview for this week's episode A Necessary Bond!

Dooku's Revenge!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=asJXbIwJ-mg

Bel-Cam Jos
11-20-2012, 09:38 PM
Bond? A necessary Bond? :p

So, how are people finding Saturday mornings for this season, rather than Friday evenings? Or, does the DVR render original airing times irrelevant?

Mad Slanted Powers
11-21-2012, 01:36 AM
Bond? A necessary Bond? :p

So, how are people finding Saturday mornings for this season, rather than Friday evenings? Or, does the DVR render original airing times irrelevant?
I DVR it. I did so when it was on Fridays as well because there were so many other things I watched that night.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
11-24-2012, 03:11 PM
Wow, I loved "A Necessary Bond!" I re-watched the first three episodes of this arc right before it, and the story is much more satisfying that way. This is probably one of the best arcs this show has done, at least in a while!

It was so nice to get payoff for Dooku's capture in Season One, and finally seeing the freakin' Slave I again was awesome! Hondo was funnier in this episode than he's probably ever been, and I liked how they dealt with his character changes. Him trying to get Obi-Wan to pay for all his damages was great. :p Huyang was great here as well and his tease about Yoda's time as a youngling was fun.

I hope Hasbro took note of the ship Grievous was using during the chase on Florrum - that would be awesome for the Class I line.

As for viewing times, I DVR it at my parents' house and watch it when I'm there, or if I'm at my apartment then I just wait until Sunday to watch it on the official site. It looks a hell of a lot better on an HD TV, that's for sure.

Tycho
11-24-2012, 04:16 PM
I love the episode too! Hasbro has to make that tank for the toy market.

a big Hondo fan here I likes the way they handle his character.

Battle Droid
11-24-2012, 06:42 PM
Best episode of the arc, and here's hopeing Hasbro makes Grievous's new ride.:excitement:

Tycho
11-25-2012, 04:37 PM
Best episode of the arc, and here's hopeing Hasbro makes Grievous's new ride.:excitement:
it was so obvious that was designed for the toy market. but it's a good idea. I think Grievous was marketed for the minny wheel bike. I don't know if that ever saw wide release. I can't remember
on account of the economy they will be doing a lot of class 1. but the tank man...

Darth Metalmute
11-25-2012, 08:03 PM
Bond? A necessary Bond? :p

So, how are people finding Saturday mornings for this season, rather than Friday evenings? Or, does the DVR render original airing times irrelevant?

I don't care for it. I have found myself behind on episodes because of it.

Bel-Cam Jos
11-25-2012, 11:15 PM
Only "issue" I had with it was how easily a group of Jedi younglings and a Padawan could hold off Grievous, when in the past, he'd dispatch Jedi Knights with less effort. But it was pretty good aside from that.

Battle Droid
11-26-2012, 01:25 PM
1st Preview for this week's episode, Secret Weapons.

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/starwars/preview/index.html

Tycho
11-27-2012, 12:30 AM
You know, there is not another astromech as capable as R2 by a longshot - not even Corran's Whistler.

Why even bother having a squad? R2 can almost handle the mission by himself.

He helped Obi-Wan and Anakin on the Invisible Hand in E3.

He just could not have defeated Dooku. After the escapade when Grievous captured him, I think R2 could beat Grievous in a rematch. Just in the movie, Obi-Wan got to Grievous first.

But I'm glad to see an episode focusing on Artoo. We haven't had one for a while, but he's always there, contributing to every mission.

Personally, the Separatists lose and the Republic is lucky that Artoo never joined the Droid Army.

Remember when Artoo reprogrammed the Battle Droids so they could take the Citadel and rescue Tarkin? That's what I'm talking about.

JediTricks
11-28-2012, 04:02 PM
Tycho, Artoo couldn't even be bothered to pilot the Jedi lightsaber ship properly, couldn't be bothered to look out for pirates, and it eventually cost the Jedi a ship nearly as old as the Republic itself - that really bothered me. R2 should be fallible, he shows mistakes in the OT, but holy crap he shouldn't wipe out a precious relic either. Of course, nobody should have expected the ship to run with NO CREW either though.



This week's Clone Wars did nothing for me, it wasn't a character-driven episode, things merely "happened" to get the kiddies off Florrum. There was no wizardly Jedi creativity, none of the kids' characters did anything to help or hamper the story, even Katooni's saber assembly was merely going through the motions, there was no more time for struggle or storytelling it seemed. Huyang played only the C-3PO role, no longer clever and wise and mysterious until one comment at the end about Yoda. Grievous is merely the Deus ex Machina that sets the plot in motion, there's no reason for him being there at that time, and it doesn't even jive with last week's episode where during these events he was engaging and then running from Obi-Wan's flagship.

As for Hondo, they overplayed him here switching sides to be arbitrary - perhaps this was meant to feel like Cap'n Jack Sparrow's unpredictability but the writing lacks the nuance required to sell that.

Ahsoka vs. Grievous pt 2 was way too easy for Ahsoka to hold her own, but that's a failing of EVERY saberwielder on this show the last few seasons where it's a sliding scale of ability based on the script's needs. At first it seemed like Grievous was limited to only 2 lightsabers which could have justified the balance shift - they showed him pulling 2 sabers off his waist, but then they cut away and he's got 4 and it's ridiculous.

I didn't hate this episode, but it didn't really work as a story, and it wasn't very well-thought-out or polished, so it was just "a thing that happened".

Bel-Cam Jos
12-01-2012, 04:38 PM
Well, it was droids R us in this week's. I found it pretty silly, but not awful. Who knew how easy it was to infiltrate a Separatist ship? It had a strong video game plot aspect to it to me. Definitely for the kiddos, especially with the dialogue.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-03-2012, 03:25 PM
"Secret Weapons" was alright - better than last year's crop of droid-focused episodes, but a little heavy on the goofiness. There didn't necessarily seem to be a need for so many droids to take the journey - we saw in the last arc that astromech droids are capable of flying cruisers themselves, and it seems they could have put all the upgrades within a single droid. I am looking forward to the so-called "experimental" episode and the Republic Commando action in the rest of the arc, at least.

Battle Droid
12-03-2012, 05:03 PM
1st Preview for this week's episode, A Sunny Day in the Void.

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/starwars/preview/index.html

Tycho
12-03-2012, 08:05 PM
I'm just not enjoying this story arc with the little guy and the droids.

It actually feels "Disney" to me and I don't mean that necessarily as a compliment - but more like this is "It's a Small World" compared to Space Mountain.

I'll do well when these droids episodes are over with. And no they are not better than last season's droid episodes where R2 and 3PO tangled with Cad Bane. That was cool.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-03-2012, 10:09 PM
I'm just not enjoying this story arc with the little guy and the droids.

It actually feels "Disney" to me and I don't mean that necessarily as a compliment - but more like this is "It's a Small World" compared to Space Mountain.

I'll do well when these droids episodes are over with. And no they are not better than last season's droid episodes where R2 and 3PO tangled with Cad Bane. That was cool.
"Evil Plans," where the droids are captured by Cad Bane while trying to shop for Padmé's party, was in Season Three. I'm talking about Season Four's fairy tale "Mercy Mission" and weird journey "Nomad Droids."

Oh, and it looks like these episodes STILL take place before "Revenge," since I saw Adi Gallia in hologram form at the beginning of the episode. Commander Neyo owns WAC-47, the pit droid, and Adi was seen with his clones in "Mercy Mission" last year, so maybe Adi left her clones and Jedi Council seat to Stass Allie in her will. :p

JediTricks
12-04-2012, 03:59 PM
Secret Weapons felt like the story didn't really work or even get started until well underway into the mission, 2/3rds into the runtime of the episode itself, when the droids got to do something and express themselves and make noises, when it wasn't just Colonel Ridiculousness and WAC the pit droid pilot yammering at each other.

This episode didn't work for me too well, the first 2/3rds were way too much of these 2 new characters who both were out of place for the show, plus the creepy mech-doctor bit that was way out of place although worked on a cartoony level, but the last third worked very well once we got that out of the way. I kept wondering why they brought a pit droid (one that could talk, no less) to pilot when we've had tons of episodes with R2-D2 piloting ships, couldn't they have thought of a different reason to bring WAC along? The adding of upgraded powers was interesting, but I think only QT's was impressive - the laser that is too much to control was a stretch, and Artoo's extra booster power seemed no different from his regular booster power in Episodes 2 and 3. I did love Artoo finally putting his arms up though, as so many toy-owners have done in the past.

Col. "I'm never going to learn this little turd's awful name" was a really odd statement on his own too, something very cartoony and very out of place for Clone Wars, very kid-oriented, tiny even compared to Yoda, bouncing around, bossing around, and chasing glory while giving orders through no firsthand knowledge of action whatsoever. What are viewers supposed to take away from this? The mission isn't expected to succeed so they give it to the misfit noisemaker? Even the astromechs derisively laugh at the guy.



Well, it was droids R us in this week's. I found it pretty silly, but not awful. Who knew how easy it was to infiltrate a Separatist ship? It had a strong video game plot aspect to it to me. Definitely for the kiddos, especially with the dialogue.Look how easy it was to hide the Death Star plans on Tatooine. Nobody expects the droids.

If this were a video game, it'd have been a ripoff, almost nothing happened, it was like 18 minutes of opening cut-scenes and 3 minutes of interesting, followed by another minute of cut scenes. This was like the first, and most disappointing, LEVEL of a video game. ;)


"Secret Weapons" was alright - better than last year's crop of droid-focused episodes, but a little heavy on the goofiness. There didn't necessarily seem to be a need for so many droids to take the journey - we saw in the last arc that astromech droids are capable of flying cruisers themselves, and it seems they could have put all the upgrades within a single droid. I am looking forward to the so-called "experimental" episode and the Republic Commando action in the rest of the arc, at least.Wow, for you to give it an "alright" means it must have been dogcrap on a paddle, usually you're the biggest cheerleader of this show.

You are right that technically didn't need to be more than 1 droid, 2 if you count the need for Col. Hoppity to be there inside the head of a droid only to chase glory. But for that, every gimmick could have been put in a single droid, and we just had R2-D2 piloting the Jedi Saberbuilding ship, we've seen him fly and cut things many a time, be brave too, so really there is a significant question of why they needed them. That said, they needed them because otherwise it wouldn't have been an episode of TV, it wouldn't have been a compelling story, and we wouldn't have gotten to know other droids.



Oh, and it looks like these episodes STILL take place before "Revenge," since I saw Adi Gallia in hologram form at the beginning of the episode. Commander Neyo owns WAC-47, the pit droid, and Adi was seen with his clones in "Mercy Mission" last year, so maybe Adi left her clones and Jedi Council seat to Stass Allie in her will. :pUgh, no more chronology-jumping! WHYYYYY?!?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Wow, for you to give it an "alright" means it must have been dogcrap on a paddle, usually you're the biggest cheerleader of this show.

...

Ugh, no more chronology-jumping! WHYYYYY?!?

And for you to only say it "didn't work" for you must mean it must have been the pinnacle of Western civilization. :p

At least with the other Season Five episodes that take place before "Revenge," they were produced before that episode and aired after, so it makes some amount of sense. "Secret Weapons" was produced a few episodes after "Revenge," and is the first episode we've seen to be actually produced for Season Five (I'm still not sure why they produce 26 episodes per season, which results in a lot of shifting - maybe CN only wants 22). Maybe it takes place concurrently with or after "Revival" and the intro was just a flashback to before Adi died, or maybe they're going the cheap route and reusing her model for Stass Allie (which seems unlikely). Too bad the syndicated episodes are already cycling, as I was really enjoying finally getting the official chronology on the official site's blog alongside their airings.

JediTricks
12-07-2012, 04:46 PM
And for you to only say it "didn't work" for you must mean it must have been the pinnacle of Western civilization. :pHa! Not by a longshot. The first 2/3rds ranged from off-note bad to really unbearable, and the last third was kinda fun if far too truncated. But I didn't feel like piling too much on an episode that I knew nobody was going to be going gaga over anyway.


At least with the other Season Five episodes that take place before "Revenge," they were produced before that episode and aired after, so it makes some amount of sense. "Secret Weapons" was produced a few episodes after "Revenge," and is the first episode we've seen to be actually produced for Season Five (I'm still not sure why they produce 26 episodes per season, which results in a lot of shifting - maybe CN only wants 22). Maybe it takes place concurrently with or after "Revival" and the intro was just a flashback to before Adi died, or maybe they're going the cheap route and reusing her model for Stass Allie (which seems unlikely). Too bad the syndicated episodes are already cycling, as I was really enjoying finally getting the official chronology on the official site's blog alongside their airings.I'm glad I don't care about the episode chronology more or that would be very frustrating and angering.

Bel-Cam Jos
12-08-2012, 01:12 PM
Just finished watching this one. Not sure, but it could be worst one I've ever seen. How do you hit things in hyperspace (doesn't it just pull the ship into realspace when near a solid body?) Reminded me of Star Tours, the first one (including the pit droid's voice like REX's). No footprints? Then birds show up to run? Hot but no sun? That weird echo of their voices? Far too much "banter" from droids. Huh? This is part of the Disney-ification I fear with the new films, even if these episodes were done before the deal.

JediTricks
12-08-2012, 03:50 PM
This wasn't even an episode of the show to me, it was an exercise in trying to be a Loony Toons short and flailing at it with little sense (WAC as Daffy Duck-lite and Gascon as a mix of several types: Elmer Fudd in trying to fake dignity, Yosemite Sam in demands for respect despite going off half-cocked, and perhaps Foghorn Leghorn in bluster). I suppose that makes it possibly the worst episode of The Clone Wars in that respect. There wasn't any real story arc in this, and definitely no character arc, they simply backpedaled Col. Gascon back to square one where he started last week. The droids barely did anything either, they disappeared for half the episode only to prove themselves "right" except since this wasn't a fully-realized script it didn't actually result in anything.

As to the question of hitting things in hyperspace, Lucas' previous comments say that celestial bodies' gravity wells are the real danger to ships as flying too near a large body's gravity will tear a vessel in hyperspace to bits (although ANH itself says they could fly through a star which muddies that a bit, but perhaps that could be referring to an outer layer of a star where its gravity and atmosphere are weaker but still disastrous for a ship in hyperspace in some way). However, smaller bodies don't seem to affect it that way, look at ANH when the Falcon drops out of hyperspace into the middle of a meteor shower, the bodies don't affect the Falcon until the ship is back into realspace.

The no footprints thing didn't bother me at first, the planet might not have dust, but then they show the astromechs caked with dust. I could argue that the surface was too hard, there might be a constant wind keeping dust from settling, but that's a bit of a stretch.

The planet being hot but having no sun, I guess the writers were trying to suggest a rogue planet with an atmosphere thick enough to retain more of its core heat. Compared to the Mortis episodes, this planet was more scientifically supported but more difficultly expressed as a believable concept.

According to Filoni, this episode was intended to be inspired by the art of Moebius and the empty room of THX-1138, but I think they missed making compelling characters to have the driving conversations, or actions and needs to move the characters along. Basically, this felt like a quarter of an idea that didn't start or get anywhere. More directly, I suppose it proves that good inspirations are not all that one needs to get by.

Tycho
12-09-2012, 09:49 AM
When the DVD set for this season comes out, this is what a title menu will be for: to make it easy for the user to skip all these droid episodes.

Is it the worst episode of Clone Wars? We'll at least have to wait until next week's to find out.

Yes, I watched it like I'd watch a Looney Tunes show. It's nice to have something to stare at that moves, lest you have to get up off your couch and wash the dishes.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-10-2012, 02:27 AM
Well, I liked the comet sequence - hyperspace questions aside, it was visually very interesting. After that it was . . . eh. I do like the idea of this episode, and of a completely barren planet, but as a 22 minute show it didn't really work too well. The highlight was probably Colonel Gascon's descent into madness, as the internal conflict was more interesting than any external conflict after a while, but it felt like it happened a little too quickly.

I'm still keeping "Corruption" as the worst episode ever, since that didn't even really have all that interesting of an idea to go off of - yeah, exploring corrupt bureaucracy could theoretically make for a good episode, but at least "A Sunny Day in the Void" has the weird and unique factor going for it so it was a much better jumping-off point that they didn't take advantage of as much as they should have. This one wasn't gratingly bad or annoying to me, it just never really justified its existence.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-10-2012, 12:44 PM
Someone pointed out on Facebook that the body in the wreckage (http://starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/slideshow/ep511/conceptart/conceptart01.jpg) looks an awful lot like a certain green rabbit (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080501041852/starwars/images/1/13/Jaxxon.jpg). This doesn't quite justify the episode's existence, but it's pretty damn awesome. :D

El Chuxter
12-10-2012, 01:04 PM
So his species is definitely confirmed, and an online comic confirmed he was a wanted fugitive at the time of the Clone Wars.

So why is it so bloody hard to get a proper Jaxxon appearance? If he'd just show up on this series, we might have a shot at getting him in action figure form, making so many starving children in Somalia very, very happy. C'mon Lucasfilm Disney, you don't hate starving children in Somalia, do you?

JediTricks
12-12-2012, 04:48 PM
Is it the worst episode of Clone Wars? We'll at least have to wait until next week's to find out.Not next week, this is the last episode of the year, the next new episode date is not yet announced. So it's another long cliffhanger, only this time nobody cares how it turns out.


Well, I liked the comet sequence - hyperspace questions aside, it was visually very interesting. After that it was . . . eh. I do like the idea of this episode, and of a completely barren planet, but as a 22 minute show it didn't really work too well. The highlight was probably Colonel Gascon's descent into madness, as the internal conflict was more interesting than any external conflict after a while, but it felt like it happened a little too quickly.If it had been a character we were more invested in, someone who either we knew or was more rounded and not such a one-off, I could have bought into the descent into madness idea, but not only did it happen too quickly (which lent to its cartoonishness) it also was a one-dimensional jerk of a character we weren't meant to like or identify with who was entirely different from anything else in the Clone Wars universe.

The comets looked better in Star Tours. :p


I'm still keeping "Corruption" as the worst episode ever, since that didn't even really have all that interesting of an idea to go off of - yeah, exploring corrupt bureaucracy could theoretically make for a good episode, but at least "A Sunny Day in the Void" has the weird and unique factor going for it so it was a much better jumping-off point that they didn't take advantage of as much as they should have. This one wasn't gratingly bad or annoying to me, it just never really justified its existence."Corruption" was pretty unbearable but I'd say it was only 3rd worst, behind "Sunny Day" and "Senate Murders". "Corruption" faltered in being preachy and in trying to focus a whole story on a planet and people we had no interest in, making it too self-contained, nobody cared if Mandalore's children got their milk or whatever that story was - corruption has long been an accepted part of the Star Wars universe, it's how characters like Han Solo exist, so there's no way a single episode about a single culture's exceptionally minor problem with it will matter to the larger show, but at the same time it was always going somewhere whereas "Sunny Day" really spun its wheels and got rid of anybody we'd want to watch.


Someone pointed out on Facebook that the body in the wreckage (http://starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/slideshow/ep511/conceptart/conceptart01.jpg) looks an awful lot like a certain green rabbit (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080501041852/starwars/images/1/13/Jaxxon.jpg). This doesn't quite justify the episode's existence, but it's pretty damn awesome. :D


So his species is definitely confirmed, and an online comic confirmed he was a wanted fugitive at the time of the Clone Wars.

So why is it so bloody hard to get a proper Jaxxon appearance? If he'd just show up on this series, we might have a shot at getting him in action figure form, making so many starving children in Somalia very, very happy. C'mon Lucasfilm Disney, you don't hate starving children in Somalia, do you?Wow, that's pretty weird that Jaxxon got a dark cameo.

Starving children in Somalia can't buy merchandise and double-dipped home video releases and park-hopper tickets and mouse-shaped soft pretzels, so I don't think Disney cares about them.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-13-2012, 02:48 PM
"Corruption" was pretty unbearable but I'd say it was only 3rd worst, behind "Sunny Day" and "Senate Murders". "Corruption" faltered in being preachy and in trying to focus a whole story on a planet and people we had no interest in, making it too self-contained, nobody cared if Mandalore's children got their milk or whatever that story was - corruption has long been an accepted part of the Star Wars universe, it's how characters like Han Solo exist, so there's no way a single episode about a single culture's exceptionally minor problem with it will matter to the larger show, but at the same time it was always going somewhere whereas "Sunny Day" really spun its wheels and got rid of anybody we'd want to watch.
Oh God, I forgot about "Senate Murders" - maybe I tried to forget. You're right, that's got to be on the list as well.

Hopefully this arc picks up with Gregor the Republic Commando. The back halves of the last two seasons have been significantly better than the first halves (in general, though there have been good and bad episodes throughout), so I'm hoping this year will follow the same pattern - all the "WOW" moments from the trailers have yet to appear this season, anyway.

Tycho
12-13-2012, 03:30 PM
Was the Senate murders one the episode where Padme and Bail Organa had to figure out who killed Onaconda Farr?

I liked that one. There was a great political undertone to it about Kamino's military contracts just like in the real world today.

And ordinary people (not Jedi) had to get around on Corsucant and solve political crimes with hold-out guns and their own best reasoning skills being their best protection.

JediTricks
12-14-2012, 05:22 PM
Oh God, I forgot about "Senate Murders" - maybe I tried to forget. You're right, that's got to be on the list as well.When something is that bad, I tend to be unable to forget it. :p


Hopefully this arc picks up with Gregor the Republic Commando. The back halves of the last two seasons have been significantly better than the first halves (in general, though there have been good and bad episodes throughout), so I'm hoping this year will follow the same pattern - all the "WOW" moments from the trailers have yet to appear this season, anyway.I'm confident the Republic Commando section is going to be better than this, "Sunny Day" was hard to watch. I remember the preview footage from it and the buildings remind me of the ghost town at the end of this episode, so I'm guessing we'll have the CIS arrive soon enough and it'll take place there.




Was the Senate murders one the episode where Padme and Bail Organa had to figure out who killed Onaconda Farr?

I liked that one. There was a great political undertone to it about Kamino's military contracts just like in the real world today.

And ordinary people (not Jedi) had to get around on Corsucant and solve political crimes with hold-out guns and their own best reasoning skills being their best protection.Well, it was the one where Padme and Bail tried to figure out who killed Onaconda Farr.

Darth Metalmute
12-23-2012, 05:03 PM
The planet look like a rip-off of Davy Jones Locker from "Pirates of the Caribbean: At Worlds End". They even had Colonel Gascon go mad just like Captain Jack did.

Battle Droid
12-31-2012, 05:55 PM
1st Preview for this week's episode 'Missing in Action'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KQGhFbpVfts

Tycho
12-31-2012, 11:53 PM
That episode looks like it might actually be interesting. I think that somehow my DVR did not record the last episode of the Colonel.

I'm not sure.

I also don't care.

But I want to make sure I don't miss episodes with Captain Rex and the Clones.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-01-2013, 04:44 PM
That episode looks like it might actually be interesting. I think that somehow my DVR did not record the last episode of the Colonel.

I'm not sure.

I also don't care.

But I want to make sure I don't miss episodes with Captain Rex and the Clones.

You haven't missed any episodes lately - there have only been two with the colonel and the droids. The Republic Commando angle looks interesting, finally.

Battle Droid
01-02-2013, 04:35 PM
New pic from Missing in Action.

OT species's first SW:TCW appearance.

http://starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/ep512_synopsis.jpg

JediTricks
01-02-2013, 05:28 PM
The planet look like a rip-off of Davy Jones Locker from "Pirates of the Caribbean: At Worlds End". They even had Colonel Gascon go mad just like Captain Jack did.Hah, yeah it did remind me of that as well, good call.


New pic from Missing in Action.

OT species's first SW:TCW appearance.

http://starwars.com/img/explore/the-clone-wars/ep512_synopsis.jpgWow, a Sullustan but he's trying to look tough. :p

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-06-2013, 03:01 PM
I liked "Missing in Action." There were some overly-goofy moments still, like tying up the Sullustan cook or some of the early Gascon stuff, but overall it was a big improvement over the previous episode. In the video commentary, Filoni said that Gregor will probably be back, and I thought his character and backstory were interesting so that should be good.

So far this season we've seen a Blue Snaggletooth and a Walrus Man - now where's the lime-green Rodian and the Ithorian in the blue swimsuit? :p

Bel-Cam Jos
01-06-2013, 03:39 PM
The first part was dull, still that corny droid team style, but it did improve. I liked the orange Walrusman (who seemed to be hiding his arm; why? :rolleyes: ). Amazing how effective a single old blaster in the hand of ONE commando can be against many battle and destroyer droids.

Tycho
01-07-2013, 12:47 AM
I liked Greggor. I think he's Boss.

Darth Metalmute
01-07-2013, 09:26 PM
Amazing how effective a single old blaster in the hand of ONE commando can be against many battle and destroyer droids.

They over did that just a bit...

They missed a perfect opportunity to "wrap-up" a previous loose end. Greggor should be Sev.

JediTricks
01-07-2013, 10:56 PM
So, we're just going to overlook the fact that when the previous episode ended, it was on a colorless, empty ghost town-type environment and when this ep starts it's basically Mos Eisley Spaceport in white and with Battle Droids playing the role of Sandtroopers? That drove me NUTS. This was an interesting episode, it just had next to nothing to do with the last two.

While we've done the "lost clone" bit on the show before (although not via amnesia), I liked this one and would have preferred a longer storyline focusing on that aspect instead of just jumping from idea to idea with contrived plot devices pushing it through. Dee Bradley Baker did a great job here, thanks for focusing on that, even during the episode I was checking his IMDB to see what weightier works he's done since this shows he clearly has the chops for it (the answer, surprisingly, seems to be none more nuanced than this, that deserves to change). Gregor was interesting to follow, and his armor ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING for once, that was nice to see, armor that doesn't immediately kill the guy inside the moment an enemy glances it (or at it).

Gascon's side of things really didn't work any better for me than before though, he blusters into a diner which gets a starving man kicked out and eating garbage (with HUGE teethmarks from him, he must unhinge his whole jaw) and then his big strategy involves stomping into the enemy stronghold which gets a guy killed, chiefly because said guy didn't have any grenades - since they obviously would have done the job and he has ALL HIS OTHER EQUIPMENT. And then the weird ending where he's delivering a message one moment about a soldier's job to sacrifice (not a very complete message to give the kiddies either) and then the next moment looking for Gregor's return was all a mess. Oh, and lest I forget again, Gascon sends the astromech - keepers of all the weapons and the big prize for the mission - out on PATROL alone with no backup! This guy officially sucks at life, to borrow a term from the internet.

The droids barely got to do anything again this episode, for a droid-centric storyline the droids sure don't get much screentime or action, it's frustrating. Nobody wanted to watch Col. Gascon, that's why we've never seen him before and he doesn't have his own show. Yet it's all Gascon and WAC yet again. WAC did get a funny line with the "Go on, save yourselves!" "Ok!" moment.

Anyway, C for effort, not a terrible episode but way too compressed storyline and a shift in locale from the previous episode, yet still a step up from previous.



In the video commentary, Filoni said that Gregor will probably be back, and I thought his character and backstory were interesting so that should be good.If they wanted him back, WHY THE **** DID THEY BOTHER TO KILL HIM IN THE FIRST ****ING PLACE?!? I hate when they do stuff like this, don't shoehorn in that "look for his return" crap, just have him survive the episode, or at least leave it more vague than a GIIIIIIANT explosion that he couldn't possibly survive yet he's gonna.



Amazing how effective a single old blaster in the hand of ONE commando can be against many battle and destroyer droids.His character is derived from a first-person shooter video game, so it makes sense (and it wasn't effective against Droidekas, the equally cheesy exploding barrel gimmick was). But then again, game mechanics would have dictated reloading, and he sure didn't. And all that said, the idea was stretched too thin, he was too good at his job.

Darth Metalmute
01-08-2013, 07:12 PM
His character is derived from a first-person shooter video game, so it makes sense (and it wasn't effective against Droidekas, the equally cheesy exploding barrel gimmick was). But then again, game mechanics would have dictated reloading, and he sure didn't. And all that said, the idea was stretched too thin, he was too good at his job.

Especially considering he just remembered his job less than five minutes ago.

Tycho
01-09-2013, 03:03 AM
Greggor's amnesia lends perfectly to my theory that Han Solo could be a clone (from a new template based on the DNA of Han's father).

Oh I could tell this story and make it mesh perfectly with my HOLY Expanded Universe.

Battle Droid
01-10-2013, 10:21 AM
New episode titles,

http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCProgram.do?sId=EP01087361&t=Star Wars: The Clone Wars&method=getEpisodesForShow&desc=on

S05, E20
The Wrong Jedi
3/01/2013

S05, E19
To Catch a Jedi
2/22/2013

S05, E18
The Jedi Who Knew Too Much
2/15/2013

S05, E17
Sabotage
2/08/2013

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-10-2013, 12:55 PM
Hmm, I like the Hitchcock-inspired titles. But now this doesn't leave any room for "An Old Friend," "The Rise of Clovis," and "Crisis of the Heart" anymore, all of which were supposed to air this past Fall. Maybe we'll get an extended season? More likely they'll just be shuffled to next season. This seems to happen somewhat regularly, but not with episodes that have been announced and had clips shown at conventions and in trailers. Not that banking regulation is the most exciting topic, but I was looking forward to seeing them explore Anakin and Padmé's relationship more.

"Point of No Return" concludes the D-squad episodes this Saturday, then the next three (or four?) feature Darth Maul and Death Watch. I'm not sure if "Sabotage" is part of the Darth Maul story or what. I also wonder if these new episodes are the arc where Ahsoka gets lost in the Coruscant underworld.

JediTricks
01-10-2013, 03:57 PM
Especially considering he just remembered his job less than five minutes ago.Gregor's amnesia seemed too quick, first he's passionate that he's not a clone, then when forced with reality he slips into belief almost instantly, so I wonder if he had amnesia when he first got found and then it wore off and he just chose to accept his new life. There are deeper questions at play because he popped right back to being a quality trooper that wouldn't have been there had he taken longer to come around.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-10-2013, 08:57 PM
Maybe our thread of Orders 1-65 needs to be ret-conned, and Gregor had an implanted urge somehow. :p

The literature teacher in me wanted him to wake from uneasy dreams to find he'd been turned into a giant insect. :kafka:

Tycho
01-11-2013, 04:28 AM
I like bel-cam jos' post.

Can we have a "Like" button here?

JediTricks
01-11-2013, 10:07 PM
So I guess there's a new episode on tomorrow, but Lucasfilm didn't send any press release or materials which is rare.

"Order 23: when convenient, become incompetent or lose your memory, whatever best fits the storyline"

Tycho
01-13-2013, 05:13 AM
I don't think my DVR records SW on Fr or Sat. I think it records new episodes on Sunday. But I'm so busy I don't know what day of the week it is anyway.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-13-2013, 12:37 PM
I liked "Point of No Return." If the arc had just been the first and last episode, I think it would have gone over much better. The giant explosion at the end was very interesting-looking and well done. There were some pacing issues, I feel, like R2's near-destruction and BZ's death which could have both been given more time. It was also cool to see Tarkin pop back up briefly, and apparently he's moved from Captain to Admiral by now.

Oh, and I also liked how the space station was based on the one from the new Star Tours ride. Very cool!

JediTricks
01-13-2013, 04:16 PM
This was a mixed bag. R2 surviving that explosion was ridiculous, BZ's death seemed needless what with QT's remote magnet and C4's laser both capable of doing the job, and Gascon's motivations flipflopping all over the map. It wasn't the worst in the arc, but it wasn't the best either, it felt repetitive to the first episode in the arc in the way the fighting went down, and it asked a lot of the audience to believe that the CIS had captured a pristine Republic Attack Cruiser, and had holograms better than any seen previously in the SW universe, and yet also had the DUMBEST droids working it and entrusted its care to only droids, or that anybody would go back for the civilian droids - look, we care about you guys, but c'mon, you are DROIDS and the galaxy itself is in serious danger, we shouldn't be wasting time saving you guys.

I did like BNI-393 the LEP droid, and the poor emotive Treadwell droid that always knew it was doomed and was eventually proven right. I was impressed that WAC could not only puppeteer a pilot droid, but could imitate its voice as well.

All in all though, this felt like a dumb action episode, filler with no real consequences. It no longer felt like it mattered whether the original mission was completed, we stopped talking about it nearly the whole time.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-13-2013, 04:49 PM
Yeah, even suspending belief in SW has its limits. The buzz droids waiting to attack? No lifter droids to move those cases, only battle droids? Blown-up R2 wasn't realistic, but it was better than being in an Indy refrigerator idea (a plot device which I actually liked in that film) type ploy.

Tycho
01-14-2013, 11:05 AM
With all the droids in this episode it was mildly entertaining.

But droids are not my favorite part of SW (though R2-D2 is awesome).

But the non-science-fiction of these past few episodes would be like adding an episode about the coffee makers, lap tops, main frames, electron microscopes used in the Jason Bourne movies, with all of them talking to each other.

[Mr. Coffee] "Laptop, I'm dying! Could you send me more power so I can make Jason's coffee?"

[Laptop] "Can't! This is an emergency. Electron Microscope is close to the DNA analysis!"

[Mr. Coffee] "But Jason will fall asleep bored if we provide an analysis without coffee!"

[Mr. Toaster] "I will sacrafice myself so Electron Microscope can have more power."

[Main Frame] "I have used my clandestine services expansion module to slice into Washington's power grid. Mr. Toaster will be safe."

This epsidoe plays out to majorly over-dramatic music. By this time, the theater going audience is now all asleep.

And Tycho here is even accepting of another Darth-Maul-Who-Should-Have-Been-Left-Dead-In-TPM episode of him slaughtering people just to satisfy Tycho's bloodlust since there hasn't been a major shooting in the news this week.

Lord Malakite
01-15-2013, 05:23 PM
With all the droids in this episode it was mildly entertaining.

But droids are not my favorite part of SW (though R2-D2 is awesome).

But without droids you'd have nothing to sniff. You'd have to find some alternative, like a marker or glue. :p

Bel-Cam Jos
01-19-2013, 05:09 PM
They are really trying to get their background characters to look like the old Kenner figures; I like that (the Gamorrean Guards all looked like toys, including the axes). Maul and Oppress just aren't working for me. I was NOT impressed with The Black Sun (as they were called) at all. But the fighting scenes were cool. It was better than the recent droid team arc, though.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-20-2013, 01:26 PM
As a standalone episode, this seemed to really jam a lot into 22 minutes, so some of the groups' acceptance into Maul's army seemed to come a little too quickly (especially since he's near death at the start of the episode, having just gotten his butt handed to him). I suppose, after "A Sunny Day in the Void," having too much going on is a good problem to have.

But as a setup to the next two episodes, it was pretty exciting. I was hoping they'd mention something about Jabba's deal with the Republic regarding the hyperspace lanes from The Clone Wars film, but oh well. The fight scene between the bounty hunters and Maul's group was really well done - it was good to see Embo's pet Marrok get some action, and I'm glad Embo and Sugi were spared. The pairing of Maul and Death Watch makes sense - they both have it out for Obi-Wan and Dooku, though for now they're apparently only focusing on Obi-Wan, and they've both seen better days and want to reclaim their glory. So I'm glad that there's more going on story-wise than "ZOMG let's put Maul with the Mandos ! ! !"

Technically, this seems to be part two of a four-part arc, since its first part, "Revival," was moved to be the season opener but clearly took place after the Onderon and youngling arcs (and likely took place after the D-Squad arc, but Adi Gallia only appeared in the opening narration, so it could have been a flashback or something). Aside from the Clovis arc, we seem to be finally moving forward in the timeline again. Oh, and Dave Filoni mentioned on RebelForce Radio (the former Forcecast hosts' new show) that they do have an animation model for Stass Allie now, but not for Agen Kolar yet. I was actually getting worried about those two. :p I also like Maul's new, less-robotic legs, and I thought the little ESB homage with Savage getting his new hand poked was cool.


They are really trying to get their background characters to look like the old Kenner figures; I like that (the Gamorrean Guards all looked like toys, including the axes). Maul and Oppress just aren't working for me. I was NOT impressed with The Black Sun (as they were called) at all. But the fighting scenes were cool. It was better than the recent droid team arc, though.
The Gamorreans have been around since Season Three, but I don't really think they're supposed to be a Kenner homage - certainly not on the same level as Blue Snaggletooth and Walrus Man were. Gamorreans had axes in ROTJ as well.

JediTricks
01-20-2013, 09:19 PM
I'll be honest, the silly backstabbing and triple-crossing I feel brought "Eminence" down a few notches. Darth Maul doesn't act smart or clever or manipulative, he just strides in and makes demands, barely survives a firefight, cuts off a head or two and declares himself the winner. He's written like a 6 year old petulant child lording his slight strength improvement over his baby brother. He is a good pairing with Pre Viszla though since Viszla has been marching around getting nothing accomplished for a while now, he's like a neo-nazi tramping around out in the woods building up a rag tag militia behaving as if he believed he's on the cusp of defeating the whole world.

Another notable problem is just that it's been so long since we were supposed to have gotten this arc that I had totally forgotten about Maul and Savage's serious beat-downs from the last time we saw them, Savage's arm especially threw me for a loop.

Oh, and after all the hype, after all the hope, all the promise, to have Black Sun be so boring was disappointing. They looked vaguely like Xizor, and they surely adopted his style of dress (in Star Wars movies, every planet is the same environment everywhere; in Clone Wars, every species' outfit is the same on everyone), but they didn't behave like him, they weren't Machiavellian, there was not a valuable payoff.

But there was plenty of fighting and killing and posturing and gadgets and no annoying pompous Jedi, so it wasn't unwatchable.

This was ok I guess, some action, some Sith stuff, and any time you have Embo it's a party, but it's really difficult to treat it like a worthy Clone Wars episode compared to something like Rookies.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-21-2013, 10:38 AM
Just the way the GGs were holding their axes and walking reminded me to stiff-limb '80s Kenner toys, that's all.

BTW, did I see Dengar (or Dengar's older brother, or clone, or the-way-everyone-dresses-on-his-planet guy) in there?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-21-2013, 12:52 PM
BTW, did I see Dengar (or Dengar's older brother, or clone, or the-way-everyone-dresses-on-his-planet guy) in there?
That was Dengar. The Hutt Council was guarded by Dengar, Embo (with Marrok), Sugi, and Latts Razzi. Embo and Sugi first appeared in Season Two's "Bounty Hunters," where they defended a Felucian farm from Hondo Ohnaka's pirates. Dengar and Latts Razzi first appeared in Season Four's "Bounty," where they work with Boba Fett, Bossk, Highsinger, and Ventress to protect cargo for the Belugan leader, Otua Blank.

Battle Droid
01-21-2013, 03:10 PM
1st Preview for this week's episode, Shades of Reason.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gPC6o9toYNM

Darth Metalmute
01-22-2013, 07:38 PM
I can't believe they were able to find any pieces or Artoo at all considering he was so close to the detonator, yet they found him in one piece minus a leg...


Oh, and after all the hype, after all the hope, all the promise, to have Black Sun be so boring was disappointing. They looked vaguely like Xizor, and they surely adopted his style of dress (in Star Wars movies, every planet is the same environment everywhere; in Clone Wars, every species' outfit is the same on everyone), but they didn't behave like him, they weren't Machiavellian, there was not a valuable payoff.

I found this very disappointing as well. The Black Sun talked like they were tough, but I saw nothing to believe it. They were nothing like I thought they would be, but if I remember correctly, wasn't the Black Sun a tough, hard core criminal organization until Xizor took over?

Other than that, the episode was interesting. I did think they cheapened the whole Jabba's palace scene. I know they were fighting Sith, but they didn't look like they could protect the palace from a bunch of nerf herders...

Tycho
01-23-2013, 10:51 AM
The Falleen were not even on their homeworld. It looked like they were on Mustafar.

Darth Maul decimated Black Sun in the comics before TPM. Now they've had 13 years about to rebuild. The Falleen would only be one species in Black Sun. So the guy at the head of the table might be the leader of Black Sun, or he might just be another Vigo for the Falleen species.

If Han Solo was 29 in ANH and this CW episode takes place, Han would be about 9 years old now (during this Darth Maul episode).

Niow the EU establishes that Han caused DENGAR's wounds in a swoop racing duel when Han was a slave of Garris Shrike's and forced to compete. That's why Dengar hates him. Dengar might be 20 years old here. That would make him in his 40's in ESB. Is he 10 years older than Han (thereabouts)?

Is he the kind of guy that wants to hold a death grudge against a 9 year old for 20 years? Well, he did name his ship the Punishing One.

Also, I think Jabba might honor his pledge to ally himself with the Republic and betray Maul and Vizla. Afterall, Maul and Vizla forced him to say he'd join them, while Obi-Wan and Anakin returned his child and asked him nicely.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-23-2013, 11:56 AM
If Han Solo was 29 in ANH and this CW episode takes place, Han would be about 9 years old now (during this Darth Maul episode).

Niow the EU establishes that Han caused DENGAR's wounds in a swoop racing duel when Han was a slave of Garris Shrike's and forced to compete. That's why Dengar hates him. Dengar might be 20 years old here. That would make him in his 40's in ESB. Is he 10 years older than Han (thereabouts)?

Is he the kind of guy that wants to hold a death grudge against a 9 year old for 20 years? Well, he did name his ship the Punishing One.
In The Clone Wars, Dengar's head wrap is more like a turban than a ratty old bandage. It's possible the EU explanation could still work, but I would have to assume that Han would be older than nine when it happened. For now I think it's safe to assume that Dengar hasn't met Han at this point.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-23-2013, 09:39 PM
For now I think it's safe to assume that Dengar hasn't met Han at this point.I am more likely to believe that Han didn't meet first. :retcon:

JediTricks
01-24-2013, 06:42 PM
The Falleen were not even on their homeworld. It looked like they were on Mustafar. It's confirmed they were on Mustafar in that episode.



I am more likely to believe that Han didn't meet first. :retcon:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-cT58rgNc

Tycho
01-24-2013, 07:49 PM
Actually, just curious: but who here, if the victim of an accident caused by a 9 year old that scarred you for life, disabled you, or infected you - or something terrible anyway - like causing your family or loved one(s) to be executed, would then stalk that 9 year old 23 years until you could torture, carbon freeze, and / or kill that individual and present whatever's left of that (former) 9 year old to a drug cartel boss for more torture, death, or life in serious hardcore incarceration (like in a carbonite block)?

I'm just curious.

Isn't after 23 years there a time you'd "move on?"

And say you were trying to work as a bounty hunter and/or professional "mechanic." Would your little uh - personality problem - interefere with your work at all?

I mean would Dengar go to "Shasha-Herme Elementary School?"

That's kind of creepy.

Now if it's like JabbaJohn speculates, that Dengar wears wrappings, what planet / culture does he come from? (We know he's human, but beyond that, where does he come from? - And why does he find Yarna dal Gargon attractive?)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-27-2013, 02:49 PM
"Shades of Reason" was pretty damn amazing. I need to watch it again since I kept having to pause, but it seemed like, as with last week, they were trying to pack an awful lot into one episode - again, after so many arcs that are stretched too thin, that's a fine problem to have. You'd think it would be more obvious to the people that Death Watch just showing up out of nowhere was kind of suspicious, but they did end up solving the problem more efficiently than the Mandalorian police could have (the Black Sun and Pykes helped make it look that way, of course), so it wasn't that bad. Mandalore is probably my favorite environment they've designed on this show, and it never looked better than it did here - and it was also apparently Fall, given the usually-green trees, so that was lovely. :D

The duel was, quite simply, the best one they've ever done in the show by a huge margin. From the fluidity of the animaton to the clever use of Vizsla's equipment to the fact that you didn't really know how it would end, it was just thrilling. It's sad to see Pre Vizsla go, but damn, the way he went out was spectacular. Now the trailers with the Maul-clad Death Watch fighting the blue-clad Death Watch (including Bo-Katan) make sense.

I really, really appreciated them bringing back Almec - that was a total surprise. It's things like this that make the show feel like one whole entity rather than just a collection of random episodes, and it might make Season Three's "Corruption" and "The Academy" actually worthwhile. :p (Potential spoiler - the latest Insider shows that Korkie, one of the cadets from "The Academy," has been redesigned for an appearance next week, which is also pretty cool.)

It's such a shame that Hasbro has all but abandoned the Clone Wars line, since there were so many designs here (and last week) that would make for amazing figures - Darth Maul with his new legs, Pre Vizsla's redesign, Bo-Katan, Savage Opress with broken horns and robotic arm, Black Sun warriors, etc.

Next week is the last episode in this arc before a trip to Cato Neimoidia (and the introduction of the Eta-2 Jedi Starfighters) in "Sabotage." Judging by what the trailers showed for "The Lawless," it's going to be freakin' amazing.

JediTricks
01-27-2013, 06:41 PM
Mostly this was a good episode, but it was uneven. I was ashamed to watch the crappy attack on Mandalore, it's a whole planet and yet they have like 3 police officers at most in any location? And not just during the first attack, within a short time the Duchess knows about these tiny attacks (even though they seem pretty small-potatoes for a whole planet's leader to deal with) and yet nobody seems interested in marshaling troops to the later attacks? And then Saltine's only reaction to Death Watch's ludicrous, laughable claims to the public is a mega-sadface, she just mopes as her world gets taken away over petty vandalism, really? Screw Saltine and her crackers, she's delivered exactly zero times on this show and it's time to cut her damned head off, she's a drag.

Also, she's made Mandalore an incredibly drab place, there's nothing visually interesting, and the only hint of color is her outfits and the paintings and stained glass windows of her, and they're not much less drab either, she uses dark colors similar to gray to fit in, I guess.

Honestly, watching Maul's plan - taking the planet, having Death Watch save the day and then oust the Duchess - should have been its own episode, and then the stuff with Pre Viszla turning on Maul and the escape from prison should have been a separate episode. Everything here on paper seems watchable, it's too bad it got so compressed that the first half felt silly.

The big fight was fun and Viszla getting dispatched was intense, I'm glad they didn't wimp out on that bit, but were this not a cartoon I'd be a little annoyed at the lame cliche of "you defeated our leader so now you're our leader", who does that in real life? What kind of gang or any fighting force just gives up and switches sides, tosses away their beliefs wholesale because their enemy killed their boss? Obviously CW isn't the first thing to use it, so that complaint is more about the cliche in general.



"Shades of Reason" was pretty damn amazing. I need to watch it again since I kept having to pause, but it seemed like, as with last week, they were trying to pack an awful lot into one episode - again, after so many arcs that are stretched too thin, that's a fine problem to have.I disagree, not a fine problem to have. We wasted 4 episodes focusing on Col. Gascon and WAC and the droid squad, the entirety of which amounted to absolutely nothing whatsoever that wasn't contrived in the arc itself, and stated nothing on the universe in which they lived, and didn't even do much with the supposed stars: the astromechs. But here we've got a real story to tell finally, one that could impact the galaxy in several very different ways, and will affect our Jedi heroes directly at some point (in theory, they talked about it then let it drop, but I can't imagine that'll stay dropped), yet they cheap out on getting there - they even have the same police voice actor appear in multiple attacks across the planet. There's room for battles and character nuances and shifting alliances all within this arc, yet instead we get the barest of bones, and it mainly only works because Maul and Viszla kick and slice at each other for a while in an interesting one-on-one fight.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-28-2013, 01:24 AM
I've said it before, how the heck is this "moderate violence"? I liked the show overall, found the ending one of those surprising-but-expected paradoxes. Action and schemes were good, too. But The Black Sun gang has been neutered so far.

Tycho
01-28-2013, 10:12 AM
Now what happened to the Falleen (Prince Xizor's species) was supposed to be Darth Vader's fault by SOTE.

I don't remember if Xixor knew Vader had been Anakin Skywalker and this is something happened before he was a Sith Lord?

I'm inclined to recollect it was AFTER Vader took on the armor.

El Chuxter
01-28-2013, 12:39 PM
It would be interesting if everything Vader did was retconned to be Anakin. They already retconned his saving the Noghri species to Anakin years ago in the comic books.

JediTricks
01-28-2013, 08:30 PM
I've said it before, how the heck is this "moderate violence"?It's heavier than "FV" which is "fantasy violence", the type of violence allowed for a TV-Y7 show. Clone Wars is a TV-PG (parental guidance) rated-show with a warning of V for violence, and then Cartoon Network calls it "moderate violence" to explain to parents that the V isn't excessive or bloody but there is more violence than a FV show, that's why CN puts a special ratings splash screen on it and why it doesn't get listed as kids programming in programming guides. Basically, it's "moderate" in that it's the medium level of violence in the TV parental guidelines ratings system, it's more violence than a kids show but less than a TV-MA or TV-14 show's violence where there's more graphic depictions of violence, as well as gore and blood.

The previous episode, Eminence, Cartoon Network censored out a result shot of the heads of the Black Sun being cut off: http://www.bigshinyrobot.com/reviews/archives/47714
so I would guess Cartoon Network felt that would violate the TV-PG-V rating they could give it, and they couldn't air a TV-MA-V show on a Saturday morning.


I liked the show overall, found the ending one of those surprising-but-expected paradoxes. Action and schemes were good, too. But The Black Sun gang has been neutered so far.What do you mean by paradoxical ending?


Now what happened to the Falleen (Prince Xizor's species) was supposed to be Darth Vader's fault by SOTE.

I don't remember if Xixor knew Vader had been Anakin Skywalker and this is something happened before he was a Sith Lord?

I'm inclined to recollect it was AFTER Vader took on the armor.I'm not sure you can say anything happened to the Falleen as a species because of Darth Vader, their society hadn't substantially changed because of the destruction of a city of a few hundred thousand that Vader ordered to contain a bio-weapon he had them working on, not in the same way that the Noghri had been changed by his actions. Xizor wanted revenge because he personally had losses there, and that was only around 10 years before SOTE so it was obviously post-armor. I think you're confusing the Noghri with the Falleen here, where Vader's clearly influence altered an entire species.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-28-2013, 09:11 PM
It's heavier than "FV" which is "fantasy violence", the type of violence allowed for a TV-Y7 show. Clone Wars is a TV-PG (parental guidance) rated-show with a warning of V for violence, and then Cartoon Network calls it "moderate violence" to explain to parents that the V isn't excessive or bloody but there is more violence than a FV show, that's why CN puts a special ratings splash screen on it and why it doesn't get listed as kids programming in programming guides. Basically, it's "moderate" in that it's the medium level of violence in the TV parental guidelines ratings system, it's more violence than a kids show but less than a TV-MA or TV-14 show's violence where there's more graphic depictions of violence, as well as gore and blood.

The previous episode, Eminence, Cartoon Network censored out a result shot of the heads of the Black Sun being cut off: http://www.bigshinyrobot.com/reviews/archives/47714
so I would guess Cartoon Network felt that would violate the TV-PG-V rating they could give it, and they couldn't air a TV-MA-V show on a Saturday morning.

What do you mean by paradoxical ending?That makes sense about the ratings.

Since most would've seen the episode by now, it's not really a spoiler. I expected someone to die, and I wondered if Maul had served his purpose, but Pre being killed made sense, I guess. It was paradoxical because I knew one of the two would die (the stop!-I-won't-waste-a-valuable-resource or you're-a-worthy-opponent gimmick would have been very bad and lame), which was the expected part, but my surprise came from it actually occurring in this episode; I thought they'd make it a cliffhanger. Basically, a I-knew-it mixed with a little they-really-did-that?

JediTricks
01-28-2013, 09:38 PM
What grade would you give a kid who delivered a paper with that many hyphens? ;)

I see. I wasn't expecting anybody to die until the Jedi had showed up and thrown their 2 cents into the mix, then either Pre would have killed Maul giving Obi-Wan an out, or Maul would have killed Pre giving Obi-Wan an out. This was better, if dumber of Pre and Maul because now their forces are weaker either way.

JediTricks
01-31-2013, 03:21 PM
From this week's Clone Wars press release:

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/content.php/1352-Obi-Wan-Death-Watch-and-Darth-Maul-on-Saturday-s-The-Clone-Wars

The much battered Twilight now sports a cartoonish illustration of Anakin as a boy Podracer pilot, with Aurebesh text that says “WIZARD!!!” The Twilight has not been seen since Season Two’s “Children of the Force.”

Oh my good gravy!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-31-2013, 03:46 PM
Looks like this one will have a lot of references for longtime viewers - the Twilight, Satine's nephew Korkie (and maybe some of the other students, given the official site's preview guide), the Rako Hardeen gear. This preview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCt-At_k6bY&feature=share&list=PL3B92060D01EA0936) and this preview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvsHE_W0RBs&feature=share&list=PL3B92060D01EA0936) show Obi-Wan getting and using his Mandalorian armor in a great homage to ANH. So maybe Obi-Wan suggested to Luke and Han to wear the enemy's armor since he did it already. I love that kind of stuff!

And going off what I said earlier, I would buy the HELL out of an Obi-Wan in Mandalorian disguise figure. They already have the Mandalorian body, just throw an Obi-Wan head on there and repaint.

JediTricks
02-01-2013, 02:56 PM
I saw this and wasn't going to post it in news, but I had to share with you guys. This likely isn't Obi-Wan, the armor design is slightly different, but it is risking being the most fan-fic thing TCW has ever done. I've cropped into the pertinent element, see if you can spot it:

27105
(click for full resolution)

AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, this episode's going to have it all, a guy painting a 9-year-old boy racing on the side of his van, Darth Maul-themed Mandalorian armor, lady Mando armor, Obi-Wan's girlfriend, it's going to be a scream.

Darth Metalmute
02-01-2013, 06:09 PM
I was surprised that i really liked this episode even if it did include Maul. There was one super-huge, drive a star destroyer sized hole in the plot though. Mandalorian Warriors are supposed to be intelligent, correct? Then why did Pre stick two known Jedi/Sith into a glass jail cell? It's not like he hasn't seen Jedi in action, in fact he captured Obi-Wan and used those force cuffs...

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-01-2013, 08:43 PM
AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, this episode's going to have it all, a guy painting a 9-year-old boy racing on the side of his van, Darth Maul-themed Mandalorian armor, lady Mando armor, Obi-Wan's girlfriend, it's going to be a scream.
This guy showed up in the preview back in August and he was mentioned somewhere on this site, if not necessarily in this thread, I think. Anyway, the Maul-looking armor makes sense if the Mandalorians want to emulate or look up to their leader (which, isn't that an element from the comics with the leader being called "Mandalore"?), so it's not out of the realm of possibility that they would want to look like him or pay respect to him - it's also not out of the realm of possibility that Maul would be vain enough to make them do it. It IS pretty fanboy servicey, but I'm a fanboy, so there ya go. :p

I bet the painting of young Ani won't be that obvious, but I don't think it's any worse than Plo Koon having a picture of himself and the words "Plo's Bros" written on his gunships, or any of the other nose art (which they unfortunately haven't had much of lately).


I was surprised that i really liked this episode even if it did include Maul. There was one super-huge, drive a star destroyer sized hole in the plot though. Mandalorian Warriors are supposed to be intelligent, correct? Then why did Pre stick two known Jedi/Sith into a glass jail cell? It's not like he hasn't seen Jedi in action, in fact he captured Obi-Wan and used those force cuffs...
When did he use Force cuffs on Obi-Wan? When Obi-Wan was knocked out by two anonymous Death Watch soldiers in Season Two's "The Mandalore Plot," he was suspended upside-down in one of the mining compound's energy fields.

Vizsla probably assumed that his guards could take care of Maul and Savage, or was just so full of himself that he thought he and his men could kill them if they escaped.

Darth Metalmute
02-01-2013, 10:58 PM
When did he use Force cuffs on Obi-Wan? When Obi-Wan was knocked out by two anonymous Death Watch soldiers in Season Two's "The Mandalore Plot," he was suspended upside-down in one of the mining compound's energy fields.

That's right. I could recall 100%, I just remember the means to hold him was glowing.

El Chuxter
02-03-2013, 10:58 AM
it is risking being the most fan-fic thing TCW has ever done.
Oh, how I so want to respond to this comment, but I'll behave. :)

Bel-Cam Jos
02-03-2013, 11:34 AM
You know, I'd put this episode among the best in the series' history. I can't post spoilers (out of white font, at least) until it seems more people have seen it, but I'm just sayin'...

Savage AND Satine die? Wow.
Sidious is a master with the blade. Those fight scenes were great; love how the Mando blade contrasts the glow of lightsabers.
Apparently it really takes NO training to operate a jetpack?
The Mandolarian "prison" and landing dock have the WORST SECURITY EVER. That's sad.

Again, a great show IMO.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-03-2013, 02:55 PM
Wow. Quite simply: Best. Episode. Ever.

From the small details like bringing back Korkie and the cadets (so is Korkie Bo-Katan's son, or maybe just nephew?), the return (and destruction) of the Twilight, and tying in episodes from Seasons Two, Three, and Four, to the big details like the most inventive, grand, well-choreographed battles we have ever seen on this show (pretty much nonstop), it was just amazing. I was genuinely saddened by the two big deaths - they were handled incredibly effectively. The music finally went full-on with the Imperial March and Palpatine's theme and it was glorious.

It's sad that this was Ian Abercrombie's final performance on the series (or at least close to it), but holy crap, what an episode to end on. I do find it a little odd that they essentially revealed that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person (the same scene also introduced the red Royal Guards to the series if I'm not mistaken). It makes sense that Sidious would use two blades since we know from ROTS that he likely has at least two copies of his saber (unless he hired a guy to find the one that Mace caused to fall out the window).

Now I'm excited to see what use Sidious has for Maul.

JediTricks
02-03-2013, 05:29 PM
FULL SPOILERS IN THIS POST, YOU'VE BEEN WARNED, STOP WHINING. :p



The Darth Sidious elements of this episode should have felt like deus ex machina, yet they gave real character motivations and actions to Maul and Sidious (sorry Savage, you got the short end of the saber) so it instead held up quite well and made for exciting action - provided you can swallow Revenge of the Sith's style of Sidious action.

The stuff with Obi-Wan though, while it wasn't hard to watch, I felt like it delivered a very ineffective character with no competent resources. Sure there were scenes aping the movies as "homage", but ultimately The Clone Wars once again presents the Jedi, and especially Kenobi, as bumbling and quick to action but poor to thinking, not to mention overly concerned with personal connections despite that being against a core tenet of the order. Considering Kenobi's story is supposed to be the episode's main plotline, I don't see a lot of folks talking about that aspect - I mean, Obi-Wan's initial plan was really stupid and simple, but it was meant to be the driving force of this episode.

At least Saltine got her crackers quick and without hesitation, even if the Maul boys then left Obi-Wan covered in gadgety armor to use the same Force tricks they themselves used to escape the same jail they were sending him to. The second she mentioned her sister though it became obvious what was going down, and I couldn't be happier that Duchess Mopeyface is dead and her sister now has a rocketpack fueled with vengeance for that too (she's still honked about Pre Viszla, I'm sure), if we don't see Bo-Katan as leader of Mandalore next time we visit the system I'll be disappointed.

I would have liked to have seen Maul slobber with rage at Obi-Wan upon first viewing though, that felt like a lost moment since Maul from the beginning of the season (and end of last season) was still pretty darn cheesed off at his bisect-er.

Unfortunately this episode had to be dedicated to the memory of Ian Abercrombie, the show's voice of Chancellor Palpatine, because he passed away a year ago not long after recording this episode. That said, Seinfeld's Mr. Pitt cemented his place as my second-favorite Palpatine with this episode's fine work, still trailing Ian McDiarmid's performance in ROTJ but outshining Old Lady Monkey Eyes, ROTS's Darth Sidious, and Special Edition ESB Palpatine and his clumsy dialogue of doom.

IGN's review pointed out how silly Korkie and his constant "auntie!" stuff was at the beginning rescue scene, totally right on the money, but also it reminded me of something else more compelling... Korkie was Satine's AND Bo-Katan's nephew, apparently SW.com is saying not her son, so did Satine also have a brother? I like the idea of Bo-Katan now angry about her mentor, her sister, and her nephew being splashed (although it would have been better had it been her son).

Overall, the stuff with Palpatine was very strong even if Savage was underused and dispatched, Maul turned into a punk and now will be toyed with in some way. Bo-Katan bringing the fight to her former comrades was pretty good. The stuff with Obi-Wan had a few solid moments (piloting the ailing Twilight to the landing platform, disguising as Rako Hardeen, and having to watch Satine get run through) but largely bumbled through what was supposed to be the A-plot. And there's the whole Korkie thing which was... well, not great, I mean, why didn't they put Satine on a speeder bike instead of a slower, easier-to-hit car? Oh, because the plot wouldn't have been as quick to tell.




I was surprised that i really liked this episode even if it did include Maul. There was one super-huge, drive a star destroyer sized hole in the plot though. Mandalorian Warriors are supposed to be intelligent, correct? Then why did Pre stick two known Jedi/Sith into a glass jail cell? It's not like he hasn't seen Jedi in action, in fact he captured Obi-Wan and used those force cuffs...It was pretty clumsy, but to be fair, Maul was about to do the exact same thing with Obi-Wan in this episode. I suppose one could argue that no Force user had ever pulled a feat like that before, the Sith were an underground organization for the last thousand years so their abilities wouldn't be well-known. But yeah, that whole thing could have been avoided with metal bars on the cell. On the other hand, maybe the writers were just too lazy making the walls smash open so easily, we've never seen a Force user break open a starship's transparasteel windows before this, why wouldn't a jail cell be made of that?


This guy showed up in the preview back in August and he was mentioned somewhere on this site, if not necessarily in this thread, I think. Anyway, the Maul-looking armor makes sense if the Mandalorians want to emulate or look up to their leader (which, isn't that an element from the comics with the leader being called "Mandalore"?), so it's not out of the realm of possibility that they would want to look like him or pay respect to him - it's also not out of the realm of possibility that Maul would be vain enough to make them do it. It IS pretty fanboy servicey, but I'm a fanboy, so there ya go. :p

I bet the painting of young Ani won't be that obvious, but I don't think it's any worse than Plo Koon having a picture of himself and the words "Plo's Bros" written on his gunships, or any of the other nose art (which they unfortunately haven't had much of lately).It was seriously fan-servicey, and then it was only that 1 guy. It's corny, but I won't say it was bad beyond that. Still, c'mon, it was corny and fanwanky. :p

You were right on the money, I freeze-framed the nose art and STILL couldn't make anything out. I liked watching the Twilight all smoky and screwed up, but watching it blow up was a bummer.


Oh, how I so want to respond to this comment, but I'll behave. :)Why? What am I missing there?


You know, I'd put this episode among the best in the series' history. I can't post spoilers (out of white font, at least) until it seems more people have seen it, but I'm just sayin'...

Savage AND Satine die? Wow.
Sidious is a master with the blade. Those fight scenes were great; love how the Mando blade contrasts the glow of lightsabers.
Apparently it really takes NO training to operate a jetpack?
The Mandolarian "prison" and landing dock have the WORST SECURITY EVER. That's sad.

Again, a great show IMO.Spoilers my aunt satine. It aired, the end, spoilers are for pre-air only IMO - if you don't want to be spoiled after it airs, don't read the thread until you watch the episode.

The blade Pre Viszla used and ended up in Maul's hands is a "darksaber", it originally was going to be a vibro-blade but Lucas shot that down, said no physical object can deflect a lightsaber, so it ok'ed the change to making it a darksaber.

If you look again, when Obi-Wan takes off he's not as sure-footed as the mandalorians, he zigs a little before flying away.


Wow. Quite simply: Best. Episode. Ever.

From the small details like bringing back Korkie and the cadets (so is Korkie Bo-Katan's son, or maybe just nephew?), the return (and destruction) of the Twilight, and tying in episodes from Seasons Two, Three, and Four, to the big details like the most inventive, grand, well-choreographed battles we have ever seen on this show (pretty much nonstop), it was just amazing. I was genuinely saddened by the two big deaths - they were handled incredibly effectively. The music finally went full-on with the Imperial March and Palpatine's theme and it was glorious.

It's sad that this was Ian Abercrombie's final performance on the series (or at least close to it), but holy crap, what an episode to end on. I do find it a little odd that they essentially revealed that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person (the same scene also introduced the red Royal Guards to the series if I'm not mistaken). It makes sense that Sidious would use two blades since we know from ROTS that he likely has at least two copies of his saber (unless he hired a guy to find the one that Mace caused to fall out the window).

Now I'm excited to see what use Sidious has for Maul.I thought the same thing about Korkie being Bo-Katan's son, Obi-Wan acted surprised to learn that Satine had a sister, so either he doesn't know her very well or Satine only has the one sister and she's a secret. That said, I'm told the commentary on the episode says that Korkie is not Bo-Katan's son, so I can only reasonably assume that Satine and Bo-Katan have a brother who is Korkie's father.

Best episode ever? C'mon, it was good but it wasn't better than Rookies, Landing at Point Rain, Lair of Grievous, Brain Invaders, The Zillo Beast, or Ambush. I mean, it had Korkie who sucks and he's blathering on and on about "auntie" for the first few minutes constantly, and Obi-Wan's big plan was a terrible and simple and failed miserably and had emotional attachments driving his actions, and Obi-Wan in general in this episode really didn't do much of anything and didn't show much in the way of resources or forward-thinking. I'm not saying it was bad, just that I'm not sure that you'll still feel this was the "best evah!" after a few days away from it. Top tier? Maybe. Best ever? I'm doubtful, auntie.

El Chuxter
02-03-2013, 07:13 PM
Damn, JT, you're going to make me spell it out and misbehave?

Oh, all right....

"That's pretty bad, because everything this show has done has been bad fanfic."

Leaving the thread again now. :D

Maerj2000
02-03-2013, 08:30 PM
Well at least I can see why I got the response from JT that I got out on the main article for this:

"I don't like this telling people what they should or shouldn't think. It was a good episode but it wasn't without its faults, unless you're a really big fan of Korkie, the nephew of Duchess Satine."

Your post (above) really seems like an attempt to influence the majority into thinking that this episode wasn't as good as we think. Thus, telling us what we should or shouldn't think. You say you don't like that but it looks to me that is exactly what you're doing.

JediTricks
02-04-2013, 12:58 AM
Clarification: when I said the darksaber was originally meant to be a vibro-blade but Lucas said it had to be changed, they changed the whole design not just the name.


Damn, JT, you're going to make me spell it out and misbehave?

Oh, all right....

"That's pretty bad, because everything this show has done has been bad fanfic."

Leaving the thread again now. :DNot as obvious as you thought, I guess you haven't been vocal enough about it to create that seed in my mind. Plus, I wouldn't have thought it obvious since the entirety of the prequels... wait, I'll take your lead and not say it. ;)



Well at least I can see why I got the response from JT that I got out on the main article for this:

"I don't like this telling people what they should or shouldn't think. It was a good episode but it wasn't without its faults, unless you're a really big fan of Korkie, the nephew of Duchess Satine."

Your post (above) really seems like an attempt to influence the majority into thinking that this episode wasn't as good as we think. Thus, telling us what we should or shouldn't think. You say you don't like that but it looks to me that is exactly what you're doing.Wow, as I said in the news comment thread, super defensive there.

You are inferring motive that's not intended or implied, and your assumption of motives is especially off-base since the majority of the post was written yesterday in the early afternoon over on TV.com while waiting to get together with my sister for her birthday, long before I had read - or most of you had posted - the comments in this thread and the SSG news.

I don't give a care what "the majority" thinks of the episode even a little nor do I want to change that, I'm confident in my assessment and stating that as such. The only thing that could be misconstrued otherwise is the thing I said to JabbaJohn when I asked if his cheerleading response of "best evah!" might have been slightly overstating things in HIS opinion when seen through the lens of time and compared to other top-tier episodes (of which I freely admitted that this could be included as one). Perhaps you might read it again without a chip on your shoulder.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-04-2013, 02:06 PM
The stuff with Obi-Wan though, while it wasn't hard to watch, I felt like it delivered a very ineffective character with no competent resources. Sure there were scenes aping the movies as "homage", but ultimately The Clone Wars once again presents the Jedi, and especially Kenobi, as bumbling and quick to action but poor to thinking, not to mention overly concerned with personal connections despite that being against a core tenet of the order. Considering Kenobi's story is supposed to be the episode's main plotline, I don't see a lot of folks talking about that aspect - I mean, Obi-Wan's initial plan was really stupid and simple, but it was meant to be the driving force of this episode.
I liked the Obi-Wan aspects, but I think it's mostly that the Sidious scenes were just so mind-blowing that they overpowered everything else. Obi-Wan didn't have much to do after Satine was killed other than to escape and try not to get killed himself, but he can still be instrumental in deciding the fate of Mandalore if/when he reports to the Republic. This episode was more about Obi-Wan's emotional state and him remaining calm and not focusing on his anger since he knows that's what Maul is really trying to do here. I really liked the dialogue between Obi-Wan and Maul on the Dark Side and how Obi-Wan knows Maul didn't actually choose it. Technically Obi-Wan didn't choose to become a Jedi, either, but he still makes the choice to use his power for good.


At least Saltine got her crackers quick and without hesitation, even if the Maul boys then left Obi-Wan covered in gadgety armor to use the same Force tricks they themselves used to escape the same jail they were sending him to. The second she mentioned her sister though it became obvious what was going down, and I couldn't be happier that Duchess Mopeyface is dead and her sister now has a rocketpack fueled with vengeance for that too (she's still honked about Pre Viszla, I'm sure), if we don't see Bo-Katan as leader of Mandalore next time we visit the system I'll be disappointed.
In the commentary, Filoni said that Lucas wanted to start killing off some of the characters in this show who aren't in the films. We lost Pre Vizsla, Satine, and Savage in this arc, and yet now we have two characters whose fates we now don't know - Maul and Bo-Katan. So if they're trying to wind down, they're only making it more difficult for themselves. :p


I would have liked to have seen Maul slobber with rage at Obi-Wan upon first viewing though, that felt like a lost moment since Maul from the beginning of the season (and end of last season) was still pretty darn cheesed off at his bisect-er.
This time, Maul was the one in charge - he didn't yet have this support or power in "Revival." So he was probably on a power trip and very pleased to see Obi-Wan in a dire situation. As Maul said in "Revenge" and reiterated here, he doesn't merely want to kill Obi-Wan - he wants to see him suffer as much as he suffered after getting defeated on Naboo. This was finally the perfect opportunity, or so Maul thought, to make Obi-Wan suffer.


Unfortunately this episode had to be dedicated to the memory of Ian Abercrombie, the show's voice of Chancellor Palpatine, because he passed away a year ago not long after recording this episode. That said, Seinfeld's Mr. Pitt cemented his place as my second-favorite Palpatine with this episode's fine work, still trailing Ian McDiarmid's performance in ROTJ but outshining Old Lady Monkey Eyes, ROTS's Darth Sidious, and Special Edition ESB Palpatine and his clumsy dialogue of doom.
Whoever fills in is going to have a lot to live up to. Sam Witwer does a pretty good evil Emperor in TFU, but I don't know how successful he would be as day-to-day politician Palpatine.


I thought the same thing about Korkie being Bo-Katan's son, Obi-Wan acted surprised to learn that Satine had a sister, so either he doesn't know her very well or Satine only has the one sister and she's a secret. That said, I'm told the commentary on the episode says that Korkie is not Bo-Katan's son, so I can only reasonably assume that Satine and Bo-Katan have a brother who is Korkie's father.
The Encyclopedia on the official site says that Bo-Katan is Korkie's aunt, and gives "Kryze" as both of their last names, so you're probably right that Satine and Bo-Katan have a brother (unless last names are passed down maternally on Mandalore or something).


Best episode ever? C'mon, it was good but it wasn't better than Rookies, Landing at Point Rain, Lair of Grievous, Brain Invaders, The Zillo Beast, or Ambush. I mean, it had Korkie who sucks and he's blathering on and on about "auntie" for the first few minutes constantly, and Obi-Wan's big plan was a terrible and simple and failed miserably and had emotional attachments driving his actions, and Obi-Wan in general in this episode really didn't do much of anything and didn't show much in the way of resources or forward-thinking. I'm not saying it was bad, just that I'm not sure that you'll still feel this was the "best evah!" after a few days away from it. Top tier? Maybe. Best ever? I'm doubtful, auntie.
I understand what you're saying, as I posted shortly after my first (and so far only) viewing. That's probably part of it - and coming off the D-Squad arc probably helps bump it up in my mind as well.

Just looking over the list of episodes for comparison's sake, here are three that stand out to me as my favorites from each season:
Season One: Rookies, Trespass, Innocents of Ryloth
Season Two: Landing at Point Rain, Bounty Hunters, Lethal Trackdown
Season Three: Monster, Overlords, Wookiee Hunt
Season Four: The General, Carnage of Krell, Bounty
Season Five: A Necessary Bond, Shades of Reason, The Lawless

Some episodes may have done certain aspects better, but I still think "The Lawless" is tops in terms of inventive, well-thought-out action set pieces (the action "Landing on Point Rain" was impressively huge but didn't do much beyond that), emotional moments (of which there are many big ones in the episodes I listed), animation (seriously, compare the facial movements and fluidity of action in this episode to anything from the first few seasons and the difference is stunning), and giving immensely satisfying payoff from storylines that started years ago, tying the series together to make it feel like a whole as opposed to a collection of random episodes, which is of increasing importance to me as the series continues. You're only focusing on the story, which is obviously important, but it's also important to note the technological advancements the show has made since it's continually pushing the envelope for TV animation and not being recognized for doing so. "Best" is subjective and my personal preference can change, but I can say for certain that this was the most thrilling viewing experience I've ever had watching this show.

El Chuxter
02-04-2013, 03:08 PM
For those of you who follow the show, is there any truth to the rumor that Matt Damon is going to guest star as Ensign Frassk next season?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-04-2013, 03:13 PM
For those of you who follow the show, is there any truth to the rumor that Matt Damon is going to guest star as Ensign Frassk next season?
They were going to put him in next season but the storyline got so huge that they had no choice but to sell Lucasfilm to Disney and let them make three movies about it instead.

Maerj2000
02-04-2013, 04:30 PM
Clarification: when I said the darksaber was originally meant to be a vibro-blade but Lucas said it had to be changed, they changed the whole design not just the name.

Not as obvious as you thought, I guess you haven't been vocal enough about it to create that seed in my mind. Plus, I wouldn't have thought it obvious since the entirety of the prequels... wait, I'll take your lead and not say it. ;)


Wow, as I said in the news comment thread, super defensive there.

You are inferring motive that's not intended or implied, and your assumption of motives is especially off-base since the majority of the post was written yesterday in the early afternoon over on TV.com while waiting to get together with my sister for her birthday, long before I had read - or most of you had posted - the comments in this thread and the SSG news.

I don't give a care what "the majority" thinks of the episode even a little nor do I want to change that, I'm confident in my assessment and stating that as such. The only thing that could be misconstrued otherwise is the thing I said to JabbaJohn when I asked if his cheerleading response of "best evah!" might have been slightly overstating things in HIS opinion when seen through the lens of time and compared to other top-tier episodes (of which I freely admitted that this could be included as one). Perhaps you might read it again without a chip on your shoulder.

Same to ya buddy. Moving on...

El Chuxter
02-04-2013, 07:16 PM
They were going to put him in next season but the storyline got so huge that they had no choice but to sell Lucasfilm to Disney and let them make three movies about it instead.
This was not only well-played, good sir, it was best-played.

JediTricks
02-04-2013, 07:56 PM
I liked the Obi-Wan aspects, but I think it's mostly that the Sidious scenes were just so mind-blowing that they overpowered everything else. Obi-Wan didn't have much to do after Satine was killed other than to escape and try not to get killed himself, but he can still be instrumental in deciding the fate of Mandalore if/when he reports to the Republic. This episode was more about Obi-Wan's emotional state and him remaining calm and not focusing on his anger since he knows that's what Maul is really trying to do here. Obi-Wan was there to help both Satine and Mandalore, not just survive. With Satine dispatched, he still has taken on her cause, there was still a job to do and I felt like he really wasn't trying to do it. He didn't seem very Jedi here just surviving.



In the commentary, Filoni said that Lucas wanted to start killing off some of the characters in this show who aren't in the films. We lost Pre Vizsla, Satine, and Savage in this arc, and yet now we have two characters whose fates we now don't know - Maul and Bo-Katan. So if they're trying to wind down, they're only making it more difficult for themselves. :pReally? That's kind of annoying to me, Lucas has always championed the idea of a world existing just off-camera, but I guess he meant ONLY WHEN HE MAKES IT UP HIMSELF. :ermm:

Maul I wouldn't mind not coming back, just being a medical experiment we never hear about again. I'd hate for them to try to tie into that Visionaries tale from here.


This time, Maul was the one in charge - he didn't yet have this support or power in "Revival." So he was probably on a power trip and very pleased to see Obi-Wan in a dire situation. As Maul said in "Revenge" and reiterated here, he doesn't merely want to kill Obi-Wan - he wants to see him suffer as much as he suffered after getting defeated on Naboo. This was finally the perfect opportunity, or so Maul thought, to make Obi-Wan suffer.Look at Maul in the junkyard, that emotional instability I think should have come back out a little when finally capturing and confronting the guy who destroyed his life and took his legs, and defeated him and left him for dead yet again at the end of Revival. Snarl and lose it a bit, then regain his composure from his sense of command of the situation.


Whoever fills in is going to have a lot to live up to. Sam Witwer does a pretty good evil Emperor in TFU, but I don't know how successful he would be as day-to-day politician Palpatine.Witwer is my choice, he was excellent as Palpatine in TFU and he's already working on the show as multiple characters. The only problem is that we've only heard him doing ROTJ-style Palpatine, not prequel Palpatine who isn't as manic and angry all the time. It's an unpleasant situation to find themselves in, the only really perfect answer would be to send audio crews to Ian McDiarmid every few months and I doubt he'd want to do that.


The Encyclopedia on the official site says that Bo-Katan is Korkie's aunt, and gives "Kryze" as both of their last names, so you're probably right that Satine and Bo-Katan have a brother (unless last names are passed down maternally on Mandalore or something).There ya have it then, a brother it is, maybe he died a long time ago as well so as not to make his absence an issue.


I understand what you're saying, as I posted shortly after my first (and so far only) viewing. That's probably part of it - and coming off the D-Squad arc probably helps bump it up in my mind as well.

Just looking over the list of episodes for comparison's sake, here are three that stand out to me as my favorites from each season:
Season One: Rookies, Trespass, Innocents of Ryloth
Season Two: Landing at Point Rain, Bounty Hunters, Lethal Trackdown
Season Three: Monster, Overlords, Wookiee Hunt
Season Four: The General, Carnage of Krell, Bounty
Season Five: A Necessary Bond, Shades of Reason, The Lawless

Some episodes may have done certain aspects better, but I still think "The Lawless" is tops in terms of inventive, well-thought-out action set pieces (the action "Landing on Point Rain" was impressively huge but didn't do much beyond that), emotional moments (of which there are many big ones in the episodes I listed), animation (seriously, compare the facial movements and fluidity of action in this episode to anything from the first few seasons and the difference is stunning), and giving immensely satisfying payoff from storylines that started years ago, tying the series together to make it feel like a whole as opposed to a collection of random episodes, which is of increasing importance to me as the series continues. You're only focusing on the story, which is obviously important, but it's also important to note the technological advancements the show has made since it's continually pushing the envelope for TV animation and not being recognized for doing so. "Best" is subjective and my personal preference can change, but I can say for certain that this was the most thrilling viewing experience I've ever had watching this show.I tried not to consider the bump coming off of D-Squad, I try to pretend that arc wasn't largely a waste of time, but I do hear ya there, certainly that's going from a valley to a peak.

Interesting list of favorites, very strong - and a lot of them are dour episodes, full of darkness and pain, I wonder if that's because that's what appeals to you, or that's where the showrunners put more of their efforts to deliver - so I'm not entirely sure if the rest of your argument is saying that The Lawless actually is better than those or just in their company.

It's a reasonable list. I stand by Ambush, Zillo Beast, and Brain Invaders on my list, I'm always surprised that both Zillo and Brain Invaders don't get more love from the fanbase. Oh, and from this season, it's funny you went with Necessary Bond because for me A Test of Strength was the best of that part of season 5, just 2 episodes prior in the same arc.

As for technical achievements, I'm not as concerened - what seems high tech today will be the next generation's laughingstock usually - so it just has to look convincing enough to me to pass muster. I was super impressed with the aforementioned "A Test of Strength" in terms of its animation and visual storytelling, but I have no idea if they were a technical leap or merely an artistic one because they looked good and told their story well. As long as the technology conveys the necessary information, I wouldn't care if it was wireframe or stick figures. The prequels are each a technological leap from one to the next in digital cinematic tools, but my favorite is TPM because its ability to express the Star Wars feeling comes through the loudest. Similarly, I've always said that ESB is my choice for the best SW film, but ANH is still my favorite.

All that said, I doubt while you were watching it, that it was the technological nuances you're talking about that were "thrilling" in your viewing experience. The battle between Darth Sidious and the Maulio Brothers could have been told in season 1's technology mostly the same as it was here, wouldn't you agree?

The "ties into the larger SW universe" thing is trickier for me partly because I really don't buy them bringing back Maul the way they did, or letting Obi-Wan feel so out of character and play such a limp dishrag of a part, or dispatching Savage without getting a big galactic impactful event under his belt, I also don't care a lick about this version of Mandalore, and there's essentially no connection to the actual clone wars here, so to me it was more of a singular story arc here rather than part of the movie universe. I see where you're coming from, I just don't have the same feeling.



For those of you who follow the show, is there any truth to the rumor that Matt Damon is going to guest star as Ensign Frassk next season?200th post in this thread, ladies and gentlemen! Resources well-used. :p Matt Damon's head is shaped perfectly for a Cruisemissile Trooper helmet though.

El Chuxter
02-04-2013, 10:40 PM
All posts are about Cruisemissile Troopers, even if we don't realize it at the time. lol

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-05-2013, 05:45 PM
Maul I wouldn't mind not coming back, just being a medical experiment we never hear about again. I'd hate for them to try to tie into that Visionaries tale from here.
On the Google+ hangout, it sounded like Sam Witwer was aware of Maul's fate but might not have recorded more as him (that was my own interpretation of what was said). So they have a plan for him, it's just not clear when it's going to appear.


Interesting list of favorites, very strong - and a lot of them are dour episodes, full of darkness and pain, I wonder if that's because that's what appeals to you, or that's where the showrunners put more of their efforts to deliver - so I'm not entirely sure if the rest of your argument is saying that The Lawless actually is better than those or just in their company.

It's a reasonable list. I stand by Ambush, Zillo Beast, and Brain Invaders on my list, I'm always surprised that both Zillo and Brain Invaders don't get more love from the fanbase. Oh, and from this season, it's funny you went with Necessary Bond because for me A Test of Strength was the best of that part of season 5, just 2 episodes prior in the same arc.
It's not at all that I gravitate towards darker stuff, and I reject the modern thinking that everything has to be "gritty" to be good (see: Nolan, Christopher). I think the D-Squad episodes could have been fun if they were executed better, for instance, and I loved "Hunt for Ziro" for its incredible weirdness (the second half of Season Three was just so strong that I didn't include it on the list). I just think the show is at its best when it's tackling big questions, making bold character choices, and/or influencing the way we see elements of the films. I made the list just to show where my tastes are in regards to this show since I know everybody likes (or dislikes) different aspects of it.

The Yoda scenes in "Ambush" are great, but the issues with the clones' humanity have since been done better in several episodes, and I really don't care for a lot of the stupid Battle Droid humor on display. "The Zillo Beast" is great, and "Brain Invaders" is good though I prefer "Legacy of Terror."

I wavered between "A Necessary Bond" and "A Test of Strength" since either could have taken that spot. The Huyang stuff in "A Test of Strength" was fantastic, but the pirate crew was a little been-there-done-that in that episode.

Looking back over the old episodes, I miss how different all the episodes used to feel one week to the next. Even when they did big arcs, like Season Two's Geonosis battle, the episodes could all feel radically different while still being part of a unified whole whereas now they can tend to blend together. On the flipside, the current approach makes the arcs feel like cohesive 88-minute stories when watched together. It would be nice to see smaller, one-or-two episode arcs again - the last standalone episode was Season Four's "A Friend in Need."

On that note, just for comparison's sake (and since it's a slow day at work :p ), let's look at the different seasons (ignoring retcons for now):
Season One: three 3-episode arcs, four 2-episode arcs, five standalone episodes
Season Two: one 5-episode arc, three 3-episode arcs, two 2-episode arcs, four standalone episodes
Season Three: four 3-episode arcs*, four 2-episode arcs, two standalone episodes
Season Four: three 4-episode arcs, two 3-episode arcs, one 2-episode arc, 2 standalone episodes
Season Five: five 4-episode arcs

*Three episodes deal with the planning and repercussions of "Hostage Crisis" so I'm considering it an arc.


As for technical achievements, I'm not as concerened - what seems high tech today will be the next generation's laughingstock usually - so it just has to look convincing enough to me to pass muster. I was super impressed with the aforementioned "A Test of Strength" in terms of its animation and visual storytelling, but I have no idea if they were a technical leap or merely an artistic one because they looked good and told their story well. As long as the technology conveys the necessary information, I wouldn't care if it was wireframe or stick figures. The prequels are each a technological leap from one to the next in digital cinematic tools, but my favorite is TPM because its ability to express the Star Wars feeling comes through the loudest. Similarly, I've always said that ESB is my choice for the best SW film, but ANH is still my favorite.

All that said, I doubt while you were watching it, that it was the technological nuances you're talking about that were "thrilling" in your viewing experience. The battle between Darth Sidious and the Maulio Brothers could have been told in season 1's technology mostly the same as it was here, wouldn't you agree?
I wholeheartedly disagree that the duel could have been done this well earlier on the show. It had been getting better, but up until Maul-vs.-Vizsla, a lot of the duels looked like the characters would go into a pose, pause for a split-second, pose, pause, repeat. They were really quite stiff for the most part. There are smaller things as well, like the vastly improved facial rigs so that characters can emote more realistically - particularly in Obi-Wan's case during the scene in which Satine dies. So it's not just the fact that the show is more technologically competent, it's that they're still pushing these innovations to help tell the story better and make the whole thing look significantly better overall. Seriously, rewatch some of the early stuff and it's crazy how much better it all is now - the video they put up to celebrate 100 episodes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06S3f_dGPdY&list=PL3B92060D01EA0936&index=33) shows intercuts between all five seasons and the difference is clear.


The "ties into the larger SW universe" thing is trickier for me partly because I really don't buy them bringing back Maul the way they did, or letting Obi-Wan feel so out of character and play such a limp dishrag of a part, or dispatching Savage without getting a big galactic impactful event under his belt, I also don't care a lick about this version of Mandalore, and there's essentially no connection to the actual clone wars here, so to me it was more of a singular story arc here rather than part of the movie universe. I see where you're coming from, I just don't have the same feeling.
While I do feel that way, in my post I was referring to how the show itself is starting to feel like a more unified whole.

Darth Metalmute
02-05-2013, 06:56 PM
When Obi Wan opened the blast door and the Battle of Mandalore was going on, the episode seemingly ceased to be a cartoon, and easily transformed into a movie to me. This episode had a ROTS feel to it with the great music, tragic turn of events, and Jedi incompetence.

As good as this episode was, it was a giant middle finger to our intelligence. Satine and Savage both die due to a saber stab in a technologically advanced society where medical care could surely save them, yet Darth Marl gets slashed in half falls down a reactor shaft, ends up on a junk planet, yet survives with no advanced medical care. At the end of the episode, the lunacy that is Darth Maul, still rages on.

I was honestly hoping that Sidieous would do what Lucas and the Clone Wars writers should have done, destroy Maul forever.

JediTricks
02-06-2013, 02:56 PM
On the Google+ hangout, it sounded like Sam Witwer was aware of Maul's fate but might not have recorded more as him (that was my own interpretation of what was said). So they have a plan for him, it's just not clear when it's going to appear.How is the hangout? I got the press release about it last week and thought about hooking up G+ but figured it'd be a massive time-suck (I remember losing days to the Babylon 5 official chatroom back in the late '90s).

I wonder why they'd tell Witwer what that fate was if he didn't record the lines. Anyway, I don't mind if they do something else so long as they believe in it, I just would prefer they not keep going back to the well here.


It's not at all that I gravitate towards darker stuff, and I reject the modern thinking that everything has to be "gritty" to be good (see: Nolan, Christopher). I think the D-Squad episodes could have been fun if they were executed better, for instance, and I loved "Hunt for Ziro" for its incredible weirdness (the second half of Season Three was just so strong that I didn't include it on the list). I just think the show is at its best when it's tackling big questions, making bold character choices, and/or influencing the way we see elements of the films. I made the list just to show where my tastes are in regards to this show since I know everybody likes (or dislikes) different aspects of it.With that in mind, think The Clone Wars might get steamrolled in the "big questions" aspect once these new movies come around? I've never put so much stock into any particular non-movie source being the end-all be-all for canon issues, so I think that's probably why the "big answers" that come up from TCW don't weigh as heavily on my enjoyment of the show.


The Yoda scenes in "Ambush" are great, but the issues with the clones' humanity have since been done better in several episodes, and I really don't care for a lot of the stupid Battle Droid humor on display. "The Zillo Beast" is great, and "Brain Invaders" is good though I prefer "Legacy of Terror."Yoda is really what sells Ambush for me, he's much more mischievous and impish and wizardly-wise there, that twinkle was what I liked, and his interactions with the clones gave them more value as people. Yeah, it's been done better later, but not as Star Warsy in my book.

Legacy of Terror huh? That one seemed a little by-the-numbers zombie to me, while Brain Invaders was a little more inventive I thought.


I wavered between "A Necessary Bond" and "A Test of Strength" since either could have taken that spot. The Huyang stuff in "A Test of Strength" was fantastic, but the pirate crew was a little been-there-done-that in that episode.Huyang definitely was the high point of that episode, but I felt like the kids weren't as annoying and the pirates really were more unique than previous episodes, more piratey than the usual TCW fare. Huyang was definitely some of that Star Wars sparkle though and that'll always sway me.


Looking back over the old episodes, I miss how different all the episodes used to feel one week to the next. Even when they did big arcs, like Season Two's Geonosis battle, the episodes could all feel radically different while still being part of a unified whole whereas now they can tend to blend together. On the flipside, the current approach makes the arcs feel like cohesive 88-minute stories when watched together. It would be nice to see smaller, one-or-two episode arcs again - the last standalone episode was Season Four's "A Friend in Need."I don't think I like the arcs much anymore, these "big movies" make the audience invest a lot in something that may not work right to begin with and just keep dragging and dragging and dragging - D-squad is an obvious example of this. The variety was a draw to me as well and having to watch the same story for a month doesn't work as well.


On that note, just for comparison's sake (and since it's a slow day at work :p ), let's look at the different seasons (ignoring retcons for now):
Season One: three 3-episode arcs, four 2-episode arcs, five standalone episodes
Season Two: one 5-episode arc, three 3-episode arcs, two 2-episode arcs, four standalone episodes
Season Three: four 3-episode arcs*, four 2-episode arcs, two standalone episodes
Season Four: three 4-episode arcs, two 3-episode arcs, one 2-episode arc, 2 standalone episodes
Season Five: five 4-episode arcs

*Three episodes deal with the planning and repercussions of "Hostage Crisis" so I'm considering it an arc.Good compiling. I feel like some of these arcs are either filler, or bloat from not being able to tell a story efficiently.


I wholeheartedly disagree that the duel could have been done this well earlier on the show. It had been getting better, but up until Maul-vs.-Vizsla, a lot of the duels looked like the characters would go into a pose, pause for a split-second, pose, pause, repeat. They were really quite stiff for the most part. There are smaller things as well, like the vastly improved facial rigs so that characters can emote more realistically - particularly in Obi-Wan's case during the scene in which Satine dies. So it's not just the fact that the show is more technologically competent, it's that they're still pushing these innovations to help tell the story better and make the whole thing look significantly better overall. Seriously, rewatch some of the early stuff and it's crazy how much better it all is now - the video they put up to celebrate 100 episodes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06S3f_dGPdY&list=PL3B92060D01EA0936&index=33) shows intercuts between all five seasons and the difference is clear.While I do see a lot of the heroes standing there deflecting blaster bolts, in the saber battles in that video I'm not seeing much of what you're talking about. Let's go back to season 1, Cloak of Darkness, Luminara and Ahsoka have a lot of saber battle action here against droids and against Ventress, it's pretty kinetic most of the time and exciting, not stiff. Yes, the faces are less nuanced, but it still conveys fine I think - it's a cartoon, after all, it's meant to look animated and stylized. There's no question that Ventress is angry, Ahsoka is cocky, Luminara is disappointed, and Argyus is crafty by the looks in their faces.


While I do feel that way, in my post I was referring to how the show itself is starting to feel like a more unified whole.Not sure what you mean exactly, although I think I get ya. In watching that vid and some Cloak of Darkness clips to be sure I had the right episode, I do see that the cartoon has its own visual language that separates it from Star Wars movies though, and the storytelling style has its own pattern to match that.



When Obi Wan opened the blast door and the Battle of Mandalore was going on, the episode seemingly ceased to be a cartoon, and easily transformed into a movie to me. This episode had a ROTS feel to it with the great music, tragic turn of events, and Jedi incompetence.

As good as this episode was, it was a giant middle finger to our intelligence. Satine and Savage both die due to a saber stab in a technologically advanced society where medical care could surely save them, yet Darth Marl gets slashed in half falls down a reactor shaft, ends up on a junk planet, yet survives with no advanced medical care. At the end of the episode, the lunacy that is Darth Maul, still rages on.

I was honestly hoping that Sidieous would do what Lucas and the Clone Wars writers should have done, destroy Maul forever."Jedi incompetence," ouch, that doesn't speak well of the prequels' view of the Jedi.

Satine and Savage die because they're run through and nobody is there to save them, so medical science can't save them. As for Savage vs Maul's injury, Savage was run through major organs - the lungs and possibly the heart - while Maul was severed at the waist below the major organs and the majority of his spine, so if we somehow assume he had a soft landing, it's not impossible that a master of the Dark Side could have kept himself alive compared to Savage (who barely has any Force training). Still, I can't give this show any credit for bringing Maul back, the idea that Maul actually could have survived being run through AND being dumped down a red-hot shaft AND somehow dropped at a junk planet is all just too much.

I agree that Maul really needs to be done away with at this point, they've already stretched incredulity too far as it is.

Battle Droid
02-06-2013, 10:52 PM
Season 5 4-Part Season Finale Trailer,

http://tv.yahoo.com/video/clone-wars-020613-clip-193303969.html

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-06-2013, 11:04 PM
Oh wow, cool trailer! Apparently big things are going to happen. I like that they're finally dealing with the public opinion and perception of the Jedi.


How is the hangout? I got the press release about it last week and thought about hooking up G+ but figured it'd be a massive time-suck (I remember losing days to the Babylon 5 official chatroom back in the late '90s).
The whole thing is online (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwMMpqsPYTk), and a little under an hour long. It's fun and they touch on some interesting topics, so if you're looking for something to fill an hour it's cool but not massively big in the way of reveals or anything. They did reveal Russo-ISC, the David Caruso CSI droid from this next arc who continually flips his sunglasses - er, goggles. :p

JediTricks
02-07-2013, 04:32 PM
Oh, I thought it was going to be a bigger thing, a multi-day event.

I am about to post the press release details for the next episode, and went to grab a photo, but even though they have 10 of 'em, none are terribly compelling as static images (except one which is just silly-looking, so I'm not using it). I hope that's not indicative of the episode's quality, I've never seen press images less compelling but the description sounds good.

Bel-Cam Jos
02-09-2013, 04:47 PM
Hmm... I think this one should've been called "Obvious Irony" instead. I half expected Anakin to wink to the audience once whenever someone else mentioned Jedi as traitors, or doing something so terrible in the scared Temple. But I did like it, even despite the blatant CSI character basis, who I guess you could say, put in some pun or witty remark as he took off his sunglasses. :YYYYEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!"

Bel-Cam Jos
02-16-2013, 04:54 PM
And this one should've been The Fugitive Jedi (instead of Knew Too Much); I expected Ahsoka to yell, "I didn't kill his wife!" or "Look, it's a one-armed Jedi" to Anakin. Probably one of the best action shows in a while, but Ahsoka is the greatest Jedi of all time: she can deflect stun blasts all around her, avoid cannon blasts, evade flying and ground troops. I really am interested in finding out how they'll "deal with" her as a character in SW lore, more than any other character. Tarkin had some cool references to his ANH mannerisms.

JediTricks
02-16-2013, 07:21 PM
Anybody else notice the Clone Turbo Tanks all driving backwards in this episode? Or how about the oddity of that opening funeral scene, where they had exactly the right number of coffin-elevators in the floor and made no mention at all about the civilians and clones killed in the blast, anybody else find that off-note?

Otherwise it was fine in terms of an action story, but simplistic in terms of a STORY story, and required a lot of stupidity on a lot of characters' parts. Also, if they have Barriss Offee be the real killer, it'll be horribly disappointing just because of how odd her scenes were in this one, she acted way weird... had this been Law & Order, she definitely would have been the killer.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-17-2013, 01:59 AM
I thought this episode was pretty great. I loved the military base and the sense of foreboding around it, and all the nods to the Death Star. The last act with the chase through the base was extremely well directed, as was the scene with Anakin and Ahsoka before she jumps.

I thought Ahsoka's assumption that nobody would believe her came a little quickly. Tarkin was being a turd, so it's not unreasonable to think that people she trusted more would be more inclined to believe her. But I'm sure she panicked from seeing all the dead bodies and having clones fire at her.


Anybody else notice the Clone Turbo Tanks all driving backwards in this episode? Or how about the oddity of that opening funeral scene, where they had exactly the right number of coffin-elevators in the floor and made no mention at all about the civilians and clones killed in the blast, anybody else find that off-note?

Otherwise it was fine in terms of an action story, but simplistic in terms of a STORY story, and required a lot of stupidity on a lot of characters' parts. Also, if they have Barriss Offee be the real killer, it'll be horribly disappointing just because of how odd her scenes were in this one, she acted way weird... had this been Law & Order, she definitely would have been the killer.
They might have had a separate ceremony for the civilians, or perhaps the families had their own. It makes sense that the Jedi would have a funeral for the Jedi. The military base had a big memorial for the clones killed at the first battle of Geonosis, so they're honoring them in some way, but I do wonder if they have military funerals for the clones or how that occurs.

I didn't notice the backwards Turbo Tanks, but I did notice that Poggle the Lesser was on one of the screens in the military prison - one of a few nice nods to the Season Two Geonosis arc in this episode. I couldn't quite tell if there were other Separatist leaders on the screens, but I wouldn't doubt it.

Tycho
02-20-2013, 03:42 AM
OK. Bariss was not in ROTS to my knowledge but we see Luminara on Kashyyyk.

Yes, if Bariss was the killer it would make a lot of sense with the foreshadowing. Some things like I believe the package to her Hasbro 12" ROTS figure said she was on Falucia (with Aayla) during Order 66.

That could still fit in with this. She could be a rogue with Mariss Brood or even train her. Don't know the Force Unleashed legacy that well.

But why would Bariss set up her friend Ahsoka? Why would Bariss kill clones?

Ventress is still out there. Dooku and Sidious could have done this. They have me guessing.

JediTricks
02-21-2013, 05:13 PM
Barriss doesn't have attachments if she's a good Jedi so friends don't matter, and clones are part of the problem to this killer.


As for the ROTS canon aspect, Barriss' death scene was cut just like Shaak-Ti's, so Shaak-Ti's death ended up coming in The Force Unleashed instead despite prior EU claims, no reason Barriss can't get locked up or killed in The Clone Wars.

El Chuxter
02-21-2013, 06:57 PM
Indeed. Given that they've already urinated all over the (far superior, in my opinion) Medstar Duology, no reason they shouldn't defecate on it as well. :)

Tycho
02-21-2013, 09:21 PM
Since Chuxter Is taking this down a peg I want Barris to survive so she can have a sex scene with Dexter jetstor.

" i'll helpe you survive order 66 but what are you going to do for me?"

All that green. Captain Kirk would be proud!

El Chuxter
02-21-2013, 10:02 PM
That would actually fit in with the previous novels better. :)

Darth Metalmute
02-22-2013, 06:41 PM
Or how about the oddity of that opening funeral scene, where they had exactly the right number of coffin-elevators in the floor and made no mention at all about the civilians and clones killed in the blast, anybody else find that off-note?

I thought it was odd that they didn't cremate the Jedi victims. Qui-Gon, a Jedi Master, was cremated on Naboo, meanwhile, these nameless jedi where shipped back to Courscant for a hero's burial.

Tycho
02-22-2013, 10:27 PM
Those chambers might have creamated them and the light that comes from them is initially a disintegration discharge.

That's what I thought anyway. The other lights were just decorative or atristically integrated discharge pathways.

JediTricks
02-23-2013, 05:28 PM
Ahsoka hasn't done any investigating whatsoever, thus negating the promise of these Hitchcockian episode titles. She remains a passive player, content to allow others to do minimal work on her behalf while she runs, follows cheese to the traps, and lays the smack down.

That said, I really enjoyed this episode from the Star Wars perspective, there was more life, more dirtiness, more exciting action, and a real sense of a cinematic style. Aliens were speaking alienese, they recreated the cantina on a train, and there was a twist ending that I called a week ago. I felt the minimal story, the emotional impact of sending Ahsoka's 2 parental figure types (Anakin and Plo) after her, the run from the law, all of that was compelling in the moment even if it was thin on real story.

The biggest flaw for me isn't Ventress' involvement, it's the lack of wisdom on the part of the Jedi Council, Tarkin came down hard and all Yoda could do was follow that lead. I've given up on the prequel-era Jedi as a group, they simply don't mesh up with the description and behavior we got from the original Obi-Wan, the Jedi here are a lesser-than organization not worthy of pity for being brought down by the system. It feels like Ventress is ultimately going to step up and clear Ahsoka's name next week, rather than the Jedi doing anything remotely wise and wizardly and clever. Should next week's season finale end on a cliffhanger (the possibility of such was suggested by TV.com's Noel Kirkpatrick, pointing out that the show's future is currently up in the air), the only one I could accept would be Ahsoka turning away from the order, disgusted in their lack of faith, their ease of being deceived, and their becoming tools of the Galactic Senate war machine - basically, Ahsoka leaving because of Barriss' claims ringing true, even if Barriss' actions were overboard.

Barriss clearly is the real culprit, her motives should we believe what we've been told so far, are a disgust in the Jedi order's actions in the war and how that impacts the people of the Republic. Those are fine motives for taking some action, these actions I am not really seeing as a natural extension of that, and they'll surely play into the Sith's hands, but my real issue is that Barriss is concerned with laying blame at others' feet rather than taking responsibility for her cause and becoming a vocal martyr.

Hopefully, the great look and feel of this episode is a teaser for the upcoming Star Wars: 1313 game that takes place on the aforementioned level (1 level down from where we started and 2 up from where we ended) with bounty hunters (maybe Asajj?).




I thought it was odd that they didn't cremate the Jedi victims. Qui-Gon, a Jedi Master, was cremated on Naboo, meanwhile, these nameless jedi where shipped back to Courscant for a hero's burial.They weren't shipped back to Coruscant, that's where they were killed - unless you're arguing they were blown up so hard they flew off the planet.

Your point about not cremating them though, that's right on the money.

Bel-Cam Jos
02-23-2013, 05:51 PM
I, too, have really liked this arc. I am still wondering what'll happen to Anakin's padawan, and the promo at the end of this week's episode piqued my curiosity even more. I still think there's a slight chance that Ahsoka will be no more (and not just in prison or out of the Order).

figrin bran
02-23-2013, 11:15 PM
Everything points to Barriss but how and when did she become so skilled? It better not be residual brain worms that is influencing her, that would be such a cop out.

I definitely have to agree with JT's assessment of the Jedi Order. They have become much like the Guardians in the Green Lantern comics - arrogant, aloof and out of touch with the galaxy. Always moving the Force is...yet they remain trapped in their ways, unable to adapt to anything.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-24-2013, 12:21 AM
I definitely have to agree with JT's assessment of the Jedi Order. They have become much like the Guardians in the Green Lantern comics - arrogant, aloof and out of touch with the galaxy. Always moving the Force is...yet they remain trapped in their ways, unable to adapt to anything.
That's kind of the point, though. They've fallen from grace - partly from just becoming so passive and navel-gazing in the days of TPM to compromising their morals as war leaders during the Clone Wars, and partly from the growing influence of the Dark Side clouding their vision. Yoda states in AOTC that more and more Jedi are becoming arrogant. They've all but lost their compassionate ways, which don't really get restored until Luke and Anakin sacrifice themselves to destroy the Sith in ROTJ (or are at least prepared to).

I agree that this arc has been extremely compelling, far more so than ones where everything seems to get resolved in one episode only to be undone in the next for the sake of drama (I'm looking at you, D-Squad) - this one plays as a full story. It's obvious from the figure that beat up and impersonated Ventress that the culprit is Barriss (who, incidentally, had a cool little shrine in her room), and JT's assessment of her motives is probably correct, but I'd like to see how she justifies herself if she gets the chance to do so.

I'm reading more and more that the show's future is in serious doubt due to the Disney deal, which is simply too bad. Hopefully at the very least we get to see the episodes that have been completed (or close to it). By its own design, the show doesn't need to go on forever, but I'll be very disappointed if the series doesn't at least resolve the fates of Ahsoka, Rex, Ventress, and Maul, though based on the preview it looks like next week may very well bring an end to Ventress and/or Ahsoka in some way so that could be better than nothing. I know that George and Dave mapped out the end of the series as the Disney deal went through and George started his retirement, so I hope they'll be able to do those stories.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-24-2013, 03:50 PM
Indeed. Given that they've already urinated all over the (far superior, in my opinion) Medstar Duology, no reason they shouldn't defecate on it as well. :)
Having read the descriptions of the novels on Wookieepedia, and keeping in mind the fact that The Clone Wars still outranks the EU in canonicity, is there any real reason why the Medstar duology can't just take place before these episodes? Those look to be the really only books about Barriss that take place during the war, and they originally took place two years into it, take place just a week apart from each other (though I'm not sure how much time they cover), and end with her becoming a Jedi Knight. Since the story takes place so late in the war, the Geonosis arc from Season Two actually should fit in just fine (despite your earlier protestations to the contrary), since that takes place relatively early on in the war and Barriss is depicted there as still being a Padawan. They've also said that they've changed the dates on the older Clone Wars material so that most of it takes place earlier than originally stated. Luminara has been absent in this arc and Barriss has only appeared in non-speaking background roles since Season Two, so it's not impossible that Barriss could be a knight on the show at this point. Her character model has been updated to show her as visibly older as well. The only media that had Barriss being killed on Felucia during Order 66 was the ROTS comic adaptation, which was presumably being made when the film was still in post-production before Barriss' death was cut from the film, so that needs to be taken into account. A webcomic later showed the events leading up to Order 66 and gave her a Padawan shortly beforehand, but since her death was of dubious canonicity to begin with, I wouldn't put much stock in the webcomic. But it looks to me like the Medstar books should remain urine- and feces-free.

JediTricks
02-24-2013, 03:52 PM
Everything points to Barriss but how and when did she become so skilled? It better not be residual brain worms that is influencing her, that would be such a cop out. Ugh, I really REALLY hope that's not what it is, that'd be disappointing. Having convictions is so important to moving a plot like this forward, true believers may be a more complicated villain to explain to kids, but it's far more rewarding than just having another cheap out.


I definitely have to agree with JT's assessment of the Jedi Order. They have become much like the Guardians in the Green Lantern comics - arrogant, aloof and out of touch with the galaxy. Always moving the Force is...yet they remain trapped in their ways, unable to adapt to anything.


That's kind of the point, though. They've fallen from grace - partly from just becoming so passive and navel-gazing in the days of TPM to compromising their morals as war leaders during the Clone Wars, and partly from the growing influence of the Dark Side clouding their vision. Yoda states in AOTC that more and more Jedi are becoming arrogant. They've all but lost their compassionate ways, which don't really get restored until Luke and Anakin sacrifice themselves to destroy the Sith in ROTJ (or are at least prepared to).My problem there is that Obi-Wan shouldn't be romancing their memory then, if they are complicit in their own downfall then he should admit those problems in ANH, not sweep them under the rug, or else he becomes as guilty as they were and sets up Luke for failure. Not the actions of a wizard or a monk. The influence of the Sith on the Republic should be what brings the Jedi down, not their own failures. The way this is playing out now, Obi-Wan isn't wise, he's delusional. And if the prophecy is to bring balance to the Force, then aren't the Jedi destined to just breed more Sith in the future by eventually making the same mistakes? That's one of those little things that's bugged me about the prequels, and now here it is at the forefront of The Clone Wars.


I agree that this arc has been extremely compelling, far more so than ones where everything seems to get resolved in one episode only to be undone in the next for the sake of drama (I'm looking at you, D-Squad) - this one plays as a full story. It's obvious from the figure that beat up and impersonated Ventress that the culprit is Barriss (who, incidentally, had a cool little shrine in her room), and JT's assessment of her motives is probably correct, but I'd like to see how she justifies herself if she gets the chance to do so.I didn't notice the shrine specifically, what was it?


I'm reading more and more that the show's future is in serious doubt due to the Disney deal, which is simply too bad. Hopefully at the very least we get to see the episodes that have been completed (or close to it). By its own design, the show doesn't need to go on forever, but I'll be very disappointed if the series doesn't at least resolve the fates of Ahsoka, Rex, Ventress, and Maul, though based on the preview it looks like next week may very well bring an end to Ventress and/or Ahsoka in some way so that could be better than nothing. I know that George and Dave mapped out the end of the series as the Disney deal went through and George started his retirement, so I hope they'll be able to do those stories.That would be a real shame if it ended without saying everything it needed to say simply because Disney couldn't pull themselves together. Ventress though, her story can go on, she's now independent of Dooku and Palpatine so she could just fade into the underside of Coruscant, become a bounty hunting myth that the lowlife criminals whisper about, and another black mark against all Force users. Rex is just a clone, he can simply put on Appo's armor design and "be a clone" again. Maul I'd still like to see disappear, or show up in a lab dissected. So it's very much for me about Ahsoka and how the Clones as a group continue.

El Chuxter
02-24-2013, 07:47 PM
Simple, JJL. Barriss is at least the same age as Anakin, possibly older (definitely more mature and advanced in her training), in the books, and becomes a Knight sooner, according to the pre-Clone Wars EU.

Making her a padawan and buddies to Anakin's padawan sort of tosses that out the window.

Tycho
02-25-2013, 01:42 AM
Chuckster is correct. The approaching storm by Alan Dean Foster. Barris is a padawan when Anakin is. The best way to explain this is that because of his abilities Anakin was knighted sooner.

Anyway I love the new darker way that the clone wars is headed.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-25-2013, 02:40 AM
Simple, JJL. Barriss is at least the same age as Anakin, possibly older (definitely more mature and advanced in her training), in the books, and becomes a Knight sooner, according to the pre-Clone Wars EU.

Making her a padawan and buddies to Anakin's padawan sort of tosses that out the window.
As I said, they moved a lot of things earlier in the timeline. Here Anakin becomes a Padawan soon after Geonosis but, again, many of the stories where he's a Padawan can take place in that time, or just change the fact that he's a Padawan and not alter much else. Does it actually state her age anywhere or are you assuming? Does Anakin's status in the order have any bearing whatsoever on the Medstar stories specifically?

Tycho, The Approaching Storm takes place before AOTC.


I didn't notice the shrine specifically, what was it?
Just a small Buddhist-like statue and some candles, IIRC. Nothing too fancy but I thought it was an interesting little detail since I haven't really seen anything like that for the Jedi before.

Tycho
02-25-2013, 02:51 AM
Tycho, The Approaching Storm takes place before AOTC.


I know. Luminara and Obi Wan are the Masters and Anakin and Barriss Are the apprentices

Bel-Cam Jos
02-25-2013, 07:30 PM
BTW, did anyone else notice the Donkey Kong style fight between Ahsoka and Fake Asajj? Rolling barrels, climbing levels?

Lord Malakite
02-27-2013, 02:10 PM
Clone Wars season 6 starts in July and ends in December of this year based on this pic making its way around Rebelscum.

27201

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-27-2013, 05:11 PM
Clone Wars season 6 starts in July and ends in December of this year based on this pic making its way around Rebelscum.

27201
Cool, but that also lists the now-delayed 3D releases, so that's definitely not up to date. That DaGeDar company had stuff shown at the Toy Fairs, so that's likely where this is from. It's also entirely possible that this is for an international broadcast of the show, since different countries play the show at different times.

Ashley Eckstein did a Q&A on the Star Wars Books Facebook page, where she had this to say:

Q: Will The Clone Wars continue past Season 5?
A: For all of you asking about the future of The Clone Wars. There are more Clone Wars stories left to tell and they are working on an announcement on where you can find those future stories. Stay tuned for more information, but that's all I know for now.


So thankfully it sounds like the show will still be continuing in at least some capacity.

In non-spoiler news, it looks like Coleman Kcaj will finally be joining the Jedi Council in this episode! Ackbar is making his return as well, now with his ROTJ-style feet instead of his Season Four flippers (so I presume they retract or something, or maybe he had cosmetic surgery :p ). The rumor going around is that Palpatine's new voice is Tim Curry, and the preview certainly sounds like him, which would be kind of crazy.

Spoilers ahead . . .

The episode guide (http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep520/) is up, and there are two more previews here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpobLXUJwKM&feature=share&list=UUIqMYlMTNe040qoaC2anzSw) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3e54Jq7HQM&feature=share&list=UUIqMYlMTNe040qoaC2anzSw). Based on the third preview and the character model without the braid, it looks like the Jedi Council will remove Ahsoka as Anakin's Padawan, which I did not expect to see happen in this fashion. A Canadian preview makes it obvious that Anakin duels with Barriss in this episode, so I assume the truth will be revealed, though I'm really interested to see how it all plays out. The Council's actions against Ahsoka will undoubtedly make Anakin even more wary of them, especially after their treatment of Obi-Wan's "death" last year, helping show why he was willing to go against them in ROTS. Awesome!

JediTricks
02-27-2013, 10:27 PM
Just a small Buddhist-like statue and some candles, IIRC. Nothing too fancy but I thought it was an interesting little detail since I haven't really seen anything like that for the Jedi before.Then yes, but I didn't really note it as anything, that's interesting. I hope they don't use that as her excuse, she should really just be a disillusioned Jedi who felt driven to extreme action. Perhaps that could disillusion Ahsoka into leaving, that'd be fine by me.


BTW, did anyone else notice the Donkey Kong style fight between Ahsoka and Fake Asajj? Rolling barrels, climbing levels?Ha! That's totally on the money!


Cool, but that also lists the now-delayed 3D releases, so that's definitely not up to date. That DaGeDar company had stuff shown at the Toy Fairs, so that's likely where this is from. It's also entirely possible that this is for an international broadcast of the show, since different countries play the show at different times.Good point.


The rumor going around is that Palpatine's new voice is Tim Curry, and the preview certainly sounds like him, which would be kind of crazy.I kinda hope that's wrong, he's SUCH a specific voice that it'd be distracting.


Spoilers ahead . . .

The episode guide (http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep520/) is up, and there are two more previews here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpobLXUJwKM&feature=share&list=UUIqMYlMTNe040qoaC2anzSw) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3e54Jq7HQM&feature=share&list=UUIqMYlMTNe040qoaC2anzSw). Based on the third preview and the character model without the braid, it looks like the Jedi Council will remove Ahsoka as Anakin's Padawan, which I did not expect to see happen in this fashion. A Canadian preview makes it obvious that Anakin duels with Barriss in this episode, so I assume the truth will be revealed, though I'm really interested to see how it all plays out. The Council's actions against Ahsoka will undoubtedly make Anakin even more wary of them, especially after their treatment of Obi-Wan's "death" last year, helping show why he was willing to go against them in ROTS. Awesome!Really you should have made that Spoiler Alert bigger, I'll do that now. All of this kinda bums me out, I didn't want to see any of those spoilers until it aired.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-27-2013, 11:06 PM
Really you should have made that Spoiler Alert bigger, I'll do that now. All of this kinda bums me out, I didn't want to see any of those spoilers until it aired.
Sorry, and thanks. As to the spoilers, I was pretty shocked to see them in the official previews, so I have to assume there's still much more to the story here (and it certainly seems that way). Either way, it seems like this episode will definitely be a game-changer.

Lord Malakite
03-01-2013, 01:40 PM
The rumor going around is that Palpatine's new voice is Tim Curry, and the preview certainly sounds like him, which would be kind of crazy.
According to the Huffington Post it is indeed Tim Curry (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bryan-young/tim-curry-star-wars_b_2776241.html).

Beast
03-02-2013, 11:25 AM
According to the Huffington Post it is indeed Tim Curry (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bryan-young/tim-curry-star-wars_b_2776241.html).
And he did a fantastic job. Since it still sounds like the Palpatine we know and love.

And wow... hell of a season finale. The show just keeps getting better. Hope it continues.

Bel-Cam Jos
03-02-2013, 02:19 PM
Was I surprised by this finale? Somewhat? How so? Read the white text below...

I thought that Mace's comments about her great trials would've meant she would be elevated to Jedi Knight status, not Padawan. I wasn't surprised by Ahsoka's decision; I just wonder if she's gone from the series now (but I doubt it). The "wait, I have last-second evidence!" ploy was expected. Let's see where Barriss ends up. Curry's voice occasionally sounded more like Tim Curry, but for the most part, he did a good job. The new "newest" guards' uniforms are pretty cool.

Season Six might be a great way to wrap it all up, and lead into E3.

JediTricks
03-02-2013, 04:40 PM
It's not unreasonable that the Jedi should be answerable to the military since they are generals and commanders in that military during this war. I understand that the Jedi want to handle matters like that themselves, but honestly there should have always been some consideration of transparency once they joined with the Republic military.

I found this an adequately enjoyable episode, but there were a couple frustrations that held me back from loving it. The first is how inept both sides of the Republic trial were, the fasttracking of this trial was ludicrous, and then Padme forgot to actually gather any evidence to present, so Anakin's running around doing everything and nobody is presenting what he's gathering because of a phony ticking clock. This issue really suggests to me that this arc should have been a minimum one episode longer, and probably should have had more of its elements sprinkled throughout the season.

The second issue is much smaller, Barriss Offee is the traitor we knew her to be, Anakin busts her and she whips out the Ventress sabers, Anakin gives her guff about keeping them and then she says she feels they SUIT HER! What the hell? She's fighting for the honor and integrity of the Jedi Order, she's killing people to ensure that the Jedi don't fall further into the hands of the Sith (her methods may be wrong, but her message turns out to be very true, as we learn in Ep 3), yet Ventress' evil red twin Dooku-like sabers somehow suit this Jedi all of a sudden? That was so stupid I actually groaned... loudly. That's just a dumb line though.

One thing I think was lost was the resonance on the Jedi council of Ahoska's choice, that's a moment I think that should have been held and examined, and if it doesn't resonate then I think that has to be addressed as well. But overall the final moments where the music swells and the imagery gets much more dramatic and creative, that hit hard. We didn't get nearly enough from Obi-Wan or Plo Koon throughout this episode.

Over the last 5 years, I've predicted Ahsoka might be drummed out of the order or would leave the order in disgust rather than be killed, turns out both were right. This is the ending Lucas and Filoni mapped out back when this started. Does that make this the end of the series? I don't think so, I think there have been enough rumblings to make a season 6 likely, but if that doesn't come to pass then that's ok too as I have no idea how they could address this ending anyway.

I hated Tim Curry as Palpatine, I know they had to scramble but he wasn't right at all, he sounded nothing like the character and every time his voice came out of Palpatine's mouth it looked and sounded and felt wrong. Keep in mind, Ian Abercrombie's performance was mimicking Ian McDiarmid's performance, so it wouldn't have been disrespectful to have another person in that place do the work.

Seeing the younglings and Pietro, all I could think was "you're all going to be dead at Anakin's hand in a few months" which bummed me out.



And he did a fantastic job. Since it still sounds like the Palpatine we know and love. I couldn't disagree more, he sounded exactly like Tim Curry to me and nothing like Palpatine - it was very jarring as I wasn't expecting it - and his voice didn't really suit the mouth movements of the character on-screen or even the tone of the moment.



Was I surprised by this finale? Somewhat? How so? Read the white text below...

I thought that Mace's comments about her great trials would've meant she would be elevated to Jedi Knight status, not Padawan. I wasn't surprised by Ahsoka's decision; I just wonder if she's gone from the series now (but I doubt it). The "wait, I have last-second evidence!" ploy was expected. Let's see where Barriss ends up. Curry's voice occasionally sounded more like Tim Curry, but for the most part, he did a good job. The new "newest" guards' uniforms are pretty cool.

Season Six might be a great way to wrap it all up, and lead into E3.I felt the same way about Mace's comments elevating her, especially with her face reacting to it like "you are full of crap, covering up for your own mistakes and trying to buy my silence".

I doubt if the series continues that she is gone, but perhaps she will follow Ventress' lead and try to find her way on Coruscant without her order and that we'll watch her become a civilian struggling to be something else than a Jedi.

I liked the Jedi guards, but I don't think their outfits are entirely new designs, I think we've seen them before in another medium.

El Chuxter
03-02-2013, 06:20 PM
This show no longer exists to me. If I ever meet Dave Filodough, I'm going to shove Barriss Offee figures up his anus until they start coming out his nose and he suffocates on them. :)

El Chuxter
03-02-2013, 06:28 PM
Okay, that might be harsh. And a little more effort than hacks of this caliber are worth.

Seriously, why the hell purport to have any sort of continuity if it's just going to be tossed out by something inferior a few years down the road? The EU has become a joke. Create a new character for this sort of thing, or use someone who doesn't have an established backstory.

Oh, wait, this is kinda the same thing that happened with Karen Traviss and the Mandalores, isn't it? Par for the course.

jedibear
03-02-2013, 07:25 PM
Enjoyed the finale immensely.

The character animation just keeps getting better and the background/environment art is just as stunning...really great work here.

My only minor complaint here is the pacing...while it moved along at a really good clip, it almost seemed a little rushed, especially the "middle" section there...but it was still a really good finish to this story...

I'm gonna get a little spoiler-ish here with my random comments so....highlight to read please....

The end first....I absolutely loved the visual punch of Ahsoka walking away down that same staircase in twilight that Anakin ascends months later in ROTS to carry out the Jedi slaughter...gave the scene that additional dramatic edge that was just really cool....add to that the great score accompanying the fade-out that just trailed away into the credits instead of the usual iris-out blasting fanfare. It was really good...

Really liked a lot of the facial work on characters in this one, especially Anakin. Add to that the fine vocal work by Lanter and the rest of the voice cast and it just elevated the whole episode. And I didn't mind Curry...it wasn't like he was featured a lot here and...it's different to be sure....we'll see how he plays out in the future.

That great subtle move of Plo Koon putting his hand on Obi-Wan's shoulder to prevent him from following Anakin spoke volumes....again, great character work and direction here. Just a few of the many great moments this episode offered up...

And speaking of characters...two really came to the fore in this last arc of episodes. Ventress and Ahsoka both have been really allowed to grow and change to the point of becoming some of the more interesting ones in the entire saga. I've always been one of the biggest complainers about Ahsoka...she always seemed to be shoe-horned into the proceedings to appeal to the youth-girl demographic...I found myself wanting to ignore her more than pay attention in the past...but I'm ready to admit I was wrong there....she's turned out to be a really good character and with what's happened now...her refusing the Jedi Council invitation to return to the order after this ordeal...well, she just got a lot more interesting.

And Ventress...wow. Talk about an interesting twist on redemption here. She's gone from blinded-by-evil acolyte with a singular purpose to a woman who questions everything around her.

No more hairless harpee and Snips here....in fact, I think it would be great to see these two end up together somehow...either bounty-hunting or missions of mercy or some other combination of fates and adventure....

Gonna watch this whole arc of episodes all at once now....

Don't know the fate of this series...probably will end up on some Disney channel....as long as the same team doing it now is allowed to keep it up without any studio interference (yeah, fat chance of that I'm sure) it could still be interesting to see how they wind the way closer to ROTS. If not, and this turns out to be a series finale instead of just a season one....well, it's been a good, eclectic run...

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-02-2013, 09:32 PM
Spoilers throughout this post - you should go watch the episode anyway.

I really loved this episode. If "The Lawless" was the best for action, this was probably the best for emotion and character moments. I kind of wish I had known less about it beforehand, but it all still played out very effectively.

The full orchestra really helped with the overall mood of this episode - I loved the somber take on Ahsoka's theme during the credits. The episodes that Filoni personally directs are some of the best and this was no exception - in particular everything about the final scene was just amazing, from the pacing to Anakin's acknowledgement that sometimes he wants to leave the Order (and that Ahsoka knows it). I didn't cry but it definitely got me a little choked up.

The actions of the Jedi Council at the end - trying to act like nothing had happened and that Ahsoka would want to just walk right back in - were pretty crappy and two-faced. Anakin's distrust of them in ROTS does make more sense now - I hope they build on it, but this is already very intriguing so far. This arc, more than any other, has really shown the tension between the Jedi and the Republic Senate/military. It definitely smells like Revenge of the Sith in the air and I'm really glad they're picking up on these elements.

Tim Curry was a little jarring at first, but overall I thought he did very well. Filoni mentioned that they weren't trying to get an exact soundalike but rather simply a good actor. I read somewhere that he might have appeared a little in "The Lawless," though that sounded completely like Abercrombie. The line that stuck out to me in the season premiere - "They're just petty crooks" - definitely sounds like Curry in retrospect. His Palpatine was pretty good, but I'm more interested to hear his Darth Sidious.

As JT said, the cameo from Tera Sinube and the younglings had shades of ROTS as well. Not just in the fact that they'd (presumably) be dead at Anakin's hands later, but in the way that they saw Anakin come in and take out a villain - similar to how the younglings thought Anakin was there to rescue them in ROTS.

The guards were indeed very cool - hopefully Hasbro keeps doing realistic designs from the show even though they've abandoned the animated line. I'd much rather have a figure of them than the 87th version of Biggs.


I found this an adequately enjoyable episode, but there were a couple frustrations that held me back from loving it. The first is how inept both sides of the Republic trial were, the fasttracking of this trial was ludicrous, and then Padme forgot to actually gather any evidence to present, so Anakin's running around doing everything and nobody is presenting what he's gathering because of a phony ticking clock. This issue really suggests to me that this arc should have been a minimum one episode longer, and probably should have had more of its elements sprinkled throughout the season.
I didn't feel it was too rushed. Obviously it didn't take place over real time, and Stephen Stanton mentioned that the Tarkin trial scene was originally longer but cut for time. This whole arc has had a deliberate pacing to it - I'm interested in seeing how it plays back-to-back. I thought Anakin's inolvement provided a good sense of urgency to the proceedings, whether or not you found it "phony." It's a device that's often used in stories like this, but I still found it effective here. Maybe another episode could have fleshed out Ahsoka's trials a little more, but the ominous mood was present throughout the whole runtime and I don't know if that aspect would have been as effective if stretched out more.


One thing I think was lost was the resonance on the Jedi council of Ahoska's choice, that's a moment I think that should have been held and examined, and if it doesn't resonate then I think that has to be addressed as well. But overall the final moments where the music swells and the imagery gets much more dramatic and creative, that hit hard. We didn't get nearly enough from Obi-Wan or Plo Koon throughout this episode.
I hope they'll follow up on that later, but the ending really had to be about Anakin and Ahsoka personally. I liked Obi-Wan's resistance to the Council early in the episode - and the follow-up that Yoda mentioned how not all of the Jedi were in agreement - but maybe Anakin will think that Obi-Wan was on their side, feeding more of his personal mistrust against Obi-Wan in ROTS. I absolutely LOVE this kind of thing.


This show no longer exists to me. If I ever meet Dave Filodough, I'm going to shove Barriss Offee figures up his anus until they start coming out his nose and he suffocates on them. :)

Okay, that might be harsh. And a little more effort than hacks of this caliber are worth.

Seriously, why the hell purport to have any sort of continuity if it's just going to be tossed out by something inferior a few years down the road? The EU has become a joke. Create a new character for this sort of thing, or use someone who doesn't have an established backstory.

Oh, wait, this is kinda the same thing that happened with Karen Traviss and the Mandalores, isn't it? Par for the course.

If I had a nickel for every time you said you'd be ignoring the show and then proceeded to complain about it, I'd be a millionaire. :p

I haven't read the Medstar paperbacks and you haven't watched any of the Barriss episodes so neither of us can say with 100% certainty, but it seems that nothing in this arc actively goes against the Medstar books (which, again, took place two years into the war, meaning in the EU continuity Barriss was still a Padawan for two thirds of the war). The only difference is that Anakin became a Knight earlier in this timeline than he did in the EU, and you never answered me on whether or not that specifically had any significance to the Medstar paperbacks. Exact ages aren't mentioned here, it isn't stated if Barriss is a Padawan or a Knight in this arc, and Luminara is nowhere to be found, so they could easily say she's a Knight at this point. The movies and TV show have always been of a higher canon level than the EU, and that has always been the case, even back to the days when ESB and ROTJ invalidated EU stories that had come out between the films. Lucasfilm has always been upfront about that. But if they wanted to combine the EU and the show, as I said, they could simply place those paperbacks somewhere between Season Two and Season Five with no real issues. Aside from her actions, Barriss' sentiments are correct in this arc - she's not straight-up evil and it fits with her questions about the war from Season Two. As JT said, she's actually right about the Jedi and their place in the galaxy and the fact that they're being too violent - which could fit even with her being a healer in the EU, maybe having all the carnage affect her personally.

It's really not an unsolvable issue. As to the age issue - I don't see anything wrong with her still being 20-22 so far in this show, similar to Anakin. Just because she befriends 14-16-year-old Ahsoka, that means she has to be the same age? Remember that Obi-Wan was a very gifted Jedi but he was still a Padawan until 25 (and who knows how long he would have remained that way if the events on Naboo hadn't occurred). Yes, they've blatantly changed things before, but this really isn't one of them.



Anyway, on the one hand, if the series ended without any further episodes I would still be disappointed, but now the biggest question that the series raised - if Anakin has a Padawan, where is she in ROTS? - has been somewhat answered, and this pretty nicely sets the emotional stage for ROTS, so there is some level of fulfillment there. On the other hand, it raises lots of other questions about her fate and how the fallout of this will play out, and these last two arcs have been some of the best the show has ever done, and the animation and acting just keep getting better. I've read sentiments similar to the one I posted from Ashley Eckstein from other Lucasfilm employees, in that "there are more stories to tell" and we'll soon get an announcement on those, so I'm choosing to be optimistic about the show's future. I'd still like to see the Jedi get further beaten down by the Outer Rim sieges and more of the split between the Jedi and the Republic.

Damn, I love this show.

El Chuxter
03-03-2013, 12:17 AM
Why not create a new character, then?

My real frustration goes to the mix of this and Force Unleashed totally undoing the previous stories. Barriss is younger (and evil, and not a healer), Dengar is much older, Greedo and Bossk are not only older but active long before previously stated, Sy Snootles is an assassin for Jabba when she should be too young to even be the luckless wannabe singer she is just before ROTJ, Anakin had a Padawan, Dathomir is well-known, Darth Maul is alive and has a brother, Jabba has a kid, Karen Traviss' books are completely wiped out of existence, etc, etc, etc. Even from a visual standpoint, all the Jedi get new duds for a short while, then go back to their old uniforms just prior to ROTS (when the war is still on). This isn't the reboot Star Trek or the post-Crisis DCU (or post-Flashpoint DCnU), where it's a new timeline and the previous stories still work in another alternate universe. This is just steamrolling over earlier stories whenever it seems like a good idea to someone at the time (and, really, is bringing freaking Darth Maul back ever a good idea?). Truth is, The Force Unleashed was worse about this than The Clone Wars is, but it's a game. Games have always been of dubious canonicity (did Jabba really hold a demolition derby with Boba Fett and Sebulba's son?). This is supposed to be highest-level canon.

Star Wars EU used to be cut-and-dry. This happened, and this happened, and that happened. There were "Infinities" outside the normal canon, but, otherwise, everything fit relatively painlessly. Sure, there were minor inconsistencies, like how the end of the original Clone Wars sorta didn't jive with Labyrinth of Evil, but it's one thing to figure out exactly where Mace is at a given time, and another to say that Mace was off-world at the beach with his lover, Kit Fisto.

It started unraveling around the time that someone decided the Marvel series was all canon, no matter how badly it fit, and brought back Lumiya. But it gets worse and worse. I pity anyone who tries to figure this s*** out now; it's worse than the Star Trek "EU" with all its contradictions. For me, it's not fun to try to decipher what happened and what didn't, particularly when the steamroller is as weakly-written as I find Clone Wars to be.

JediTricks
03-03-2013, 12:19 AM
I can't really see this episode leading to ROTS, the way Obi-Wan and Anakin are pleasant together at the beginning of the episode, how Anakin really doesn't act like anything's been wrong for a while except hiding his relationship with Padme, that stuff definitely doesn't feel like an appropriate way to come off of the pain of Ahsoka's decision. Hopefully they'll get to tell some story about dealing with that in a major way - 6th season, finale movie, video game, comic book miniseries, something visual.


Okay, that might be harsh. And a little more effort than hacks of this caliber are worth.

Seriously, why the hell purport to have any sort of continuity if it's just going to be tossed out by something inferior a few years down the road? The EU has become a joke. Create a new character for this sort of thing, or use someone who doesn't have an established backstory.

Oh, wait, this is kinda the same thing that happened with Karen Traviss and the Mandalores, isn't it? Par for the course.Hacks of George Lucas' caliber? Dave Filoni brought Avatar: The Last Airbender to fruition, that's pretty far from "hack" as well. Yes, they stepped on a character you like, it's not the first time and it likely won't be the last time, surprised you're not more used to it by now.

JediTricks
03-03-2013, 12:23 AM
Why not create a new character, then?Creating a new character takes time and money and makes twist endings obvious.


My real frustration goes to the mix of this and Force Unleashed totally undoing the previous stories. Barriss is younger (and evil, and not a healer), Dengar is much older, Greedo and Bossk are not only older but active long before previously stated, Sy Snootles is an assassin for Jabba when she should be too young to even be the luckless wannabe singer she is just before ROTJ, Anakin had a Padawan, Dathomir is well-known, Darth Maul is alive and has a brother, Jabba has a kid, Karen Traviss' books are completely wiped out of existence, etc, etc, etc. Even from a visual standpoint, all the Jedi get new duds for a short while, then go back to their old uniforms just prior to ROTS (when the war is still on). This isn't the reboot Star Trek or the post-Crisis DCU (or post-Flashpoint DCnU), where it's a new timeline and the previous stories still work in another alternate universe. This is just steamrolling over earlier stories whenever it seems like a good idea to someone at the time (and, really, is bringing freaking Darth Maul back ever a good idea?). Truth is, The Force Unleashed was worse about this than The Clone Wars is, but it's a game. Games have always been of dubious canonicity (did Jabba really hold a demolition derby with Boba Fett and Sebulba's son?). This is supposed to be highest-level canon.

Star Wars EU used to be cut-and-dry. This happened, and this happened, and that happened. There were "Infinities" outside the normal canon, but, otherwise, everything fit relatively painlessly. Sure, there were minor inconsistencies, like how the end of the original Clone Wars sorta didn't jive with Labyrinth of Evil, but it's one thing to figure out exactly where Mace is at a given time, and another to say that Mace was off-world at the beach with his lover, Kit Fisto.

It started unraveling around the time that someone decided the Marvel series was all canon, no matter how badly it fit, and brought back Lumiya. But it gets worse and worse. I pity anyone who tries to figure this s*** out now; it's worse than the Star Trek "EU" with all its contradictions. For me, it's not fun to try to decipher what happened and what didn't, particularly when the steamroller is as weakly-written as I find Clone Wars to be.Barriss isn't evil, she's confused and frustrated, she sees herself as a freedom fighter and that has taken her down the rabbit-hole of "terrorist" without realizing it. I can't imagine she WANTED to frame Ahsoka or any Jedi, she's trying to protect the Jedi and the people from bureaucracy and short-sighted decisions that have led to war and destruction on a galactic scale by the order she's watching tear itself down.

Of course SW EU used to be cut & dry, there was less of it. But even in '91 with Heir to the Empire and Dark Empire, elements had to be changed and added to force them to work together, artistic freedom was compromised to try to make it work, at some point if you keep doing that it becomes pedantic and complex. Hell, take it back to the very first EU - Marvel and Splinter of the Mind's Eye - and you'll find inconsistencies that are thrown out left and right via ESB and ROTJ.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-03-2013, 03:12 AM
My real frustration goes to the mix of this and Force Unleashed totally undoing the previous stories. Barriss is younger (and evil, and not a healer), Dengar is much older, Greedo and Bossk are not only older but active long before previously stated, Sy Snootles is an assassin for Jabba when she should be too young to even be the luckless wannabe singer she is just before ROTJ, Anakin had a Padawan, Dathomir is well-known, Darth Maul is alive and has a brother, Jabba has a kid, Karen Traviss' books are completely wiped out of existence, etc, etc, etc. Even from a visual standpoint, all the Jedi get new duds for a short while, then go back to their old uniforms just prior to ROTS (when the war is still on). This isn't the reboot Star Trek or the post-Crisis DCU (or post-Flashpoint DCnU), where it's a new timeline and the previous stories still work in another alternate universe. This is just steamrolling over earlier stories whenever it seems like a good idea to someone at the time (and, really, is bringing freaking Darth Maul back ever a good idea?). Truth is, The Force Unleashed was worse about this than The Clone Wars is, but it's a game. Games have always been of dubious canonicity (did Jabba really hold a demolition derby with Boba Fett and Sebulba's son?). This is supposed to be highest-level canon.

Star Wars EU used to be cut-and-dry. This happened, and this happened, and that happened. There were "Infinities" outside the normal canon, but, otherwise, everything fit relatively painlessly. Sure, there were minor inconsistencies, like how the end of the original Clone Wars sorta didn't jive with Labyrinth of Evil, but it's one thing to figure out exactly where Mace is at a given time, and another to say that Mace was off-world at the beach with his lover, Kit Fisto.

It started unraveling around the time that someone decided the Marvel series was all canon, no matter how badly it fit, and brought back Lumiya. But it gets worse and worse. I pity anyone who tries to figure this s*** out now; it's worse than the Star Trek "EU" with all its contradictions. For me, it's not fun to try to decipher what happened and what didn't, particularly when the steamroller is as weakly-written as I find Clone Wars to be.
There are levels of canonicity and that's the way it's been since Leland Chee was brought on board to track this in 2000. There's an attempt to put everything in one continuity, but when there are conflicts, the higher one wins out. Wookieepedia lists them as such (though I often see TCW as being listed alongside the films since the stories are from George):
*G-canon - George Lucas canon - the movies and related materials
*T-canon - TV shows
*C-canon - Continuity - modern EU
*S-canon - Secondary canon - older EU that doesn't fit
*N-canon - Non-canon - Infinities and things of that nature
Things can move up in the canon if they are brought into a higher level, such as Aayla being taken from the comics and added to AOTC or S-canon characters like Lumiya being brought into C-canon stories.

As I said, Barriss isn't necessarily younger here just because she has a younger friend. And just because they don't show her as a healer in her limited appearances on the series doesn't mean she can't be a healer. (Though I'm beginning to suspect you don't actually read anything I write on this particular topic.)

We know why Ahsoka isn't in ROTS. They brought up the question in 2008 and they provided the answer today. No, he doesn't mention her in ROTS, but he also doesn't mention Ventress, Durge, or anyone else from pre-TCW EU that he had significant encounters with. The comics have been condensed to take place earlier, before Anakin gets the Padawan, but he and Obi-Wan still have gone on numerous missions without her in the TV series and not mentioned her for the duration of the episode so there are plenty of ways to take the old EU into account here if they choose to do so.

Darth Maul surviving his injuries on Naboo isn't an EU retcon, it's just saying that something we saw in TPM led to something we didn't expect. They account for this numerous times in the arc and it doesn't change anything from the EU. Most fans of the show, even ones who were apprehensive about Maul being brought back, seemed to enjoy the way it played out, so in this case I think it WAS a good idea to bring him back. (He made enough of a splash, tried to build his power, and got the smackdown when he got too powerful, so he didn't influence events outside of himself or Mandalore much at all.) And there was no EU that said he didn't have a brother. Those aren't changes, just things you disagree with or dislike.

The Jedi clothing, you can blame that on your beloved Tartakovsky microseries all the way. Anakin and Obi-Wan in TCW had the chest armor and wristbands that appeared in the microseries' third season (though years ago I remember you calling it less subtle than the TCW versions, despite the microseries being identical but adding capes). The chest armor has been gone since halfway through TCW Season Three, though the wrist armor remains on several Jedi (though far from all). In the microseries, they ditched the armor literally as they were on the cruiser right before going to the Battle of Coruscant. So you're reaching on this one.

Everything else you've mentioned is just details, usually from short stories or throwaway lines (like Jabba not having any children, which was briefly mentioned in his will but could have been a lie, or Rotta could have died by then). Karen Traviss decided to leave because she herself thought what was happening was too different. I'm not sure what the exact issue was but I believe it had to do with the depiction of Death Watch at this exact point in time (which has changed dramatically over the seasons) not being what she wanted.

Their depictions of the Battle of Coruscant are similar enough, but Labyrinth of Evil and the microseries have Anakin and Obi-Wan at completely different places doing completely different things at the exact same time right before they jump to Coruscant. It's not a small difference, but they still retconned it so that one takes place after the other. They've done this before, somehow or another the world kept turning and nobody died, and they can do it again.

JediTricks
03-03-2013, 04:14 PM
Dude, c'mon, Maul was a dead duck. They retconned the Theed Palace reactor shaft into one of those endless skydiving fan things, that's the ONLY way he could have survived being cut in half and falling down that pit. Even the EU in Wrath of Darth Maul and The Sith Hunters is utterly ridiculous - grabbing a vent at that speed without a working SPINE? And then falling further and hitting water? He'd have ripped his arm off his body even if his spine was still able to send signals after being cut in twain, and the impact from hitting the water from that height would pancake him, turning his internal organs into external ones. Oh, and let's not forget that THERE WERE NO VENTS OR WATER IN THE MOVIE.